1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I make it a practice, 2 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: my wife and I do, at least when we can 3 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: save our pennies enough and we go. Trust me, before 4 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: I say this, I want you to think I'm some 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: kind of rich guy because I ain't. Save our pennies 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: and pack a backpack both of us, and we hop 7 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: on the cheapest flight we can find and we go 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: to Great Britain. And we've done this a couple of times, 9 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: and stay very very cheap and stay in fancy hotels. Hey, 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: if you're in America, you can always stay in some 11 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: big chain, right, So we try to stay in, you know, 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: in hostels for families or maybe in an inn that's 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: outside of town and take public transit in. And one 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: of the things that we were prone to do while 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: we're overseas is go is at art museums. Probably one 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: of the most fantastic experiences I've ever had was the 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: National Museum in London. Some of the most beautiful artistry 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: I've ever seen, and also particularly in Cardiff. Welles went 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: down there and went to the National Art Museum and 20 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: they had beautiful Monet paintings and they're all originals there 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: and you walk through these things and just the I 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: don't know, you can just stare at them for hours. 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: And the old portraits too, the ones that go back 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of years, and it's amazing what an 25 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: artist can do with paint. It certainly is now. In forensics, 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: we study paint. We study paint as it applies to 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: motor vehicle accidents because you know, you might not know this, 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: but when a person gets hit by car and it's 29 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: a hit and run, sometimes the car will deposit paint 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: on the deceased body. Today, I'm going to chat with 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: you guys about a case that involves paint, but it 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: involves paint in a manner in which I have never 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: experience in all of my years as a medical legal 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: death investigator. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks 35 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: Dave Mack. Good to be back with you, my friend. 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: I have to tell you I came across this case 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: because actually I've had two television channels that networks that 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: have wanted me to cover it, and I was not 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: aware of it. There's so many things that come across 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: my desk in media and they are these things get 41 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: put up on the shelf in my brain somewhere, I 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: don't know where. I just I forget about them. I 43 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: didn't remember hearing about this case. But what caught my 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: attention about this case is that this is actually involving 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: a person and dig this man that's going up on 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: trial for not one not the second time, but not 47 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: the third time, but the fourth time. You talk about 48 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: an outlier. This is just not something you commonly see. 49 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 2: Doesn't happen like this. The bottom line always the bottom line. 50 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: Why are there four trials? You always can have one 51 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: you appeal it. There was a problem with this or 52 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: that piece of evidence. But in this particular case, there 53 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: was actually a conviction at trial that was overthrown by 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: the state Supreme Judicial Court over erroneous evidence, which plays 55 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: into your paint discussion earlier. This case, also, Joe, it's 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: the first time in Massachusetts where a wife has been 57 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: charged with the death of their wife, first time for everything. 58 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: This is the first time this has happened. And to 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: be honest with you, when you read all the reports 60 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: of this couple that we're dealing with today, Golly g 61 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: Whisby sounds like just about every other married couple that 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: ends up fighting over money and jealousy and childcare, the 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: normal aggravations of everyone else. So the one thing that 64 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: makes it different actually makes them the same as everybody else. 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: It's funny how that works. 66 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And I think that that applies to 67 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: relationships across the board. When you have two people that 68 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: are in an intimate relationship, they're sharing Look, they're sharing 69 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: life there in an household together, You've got all of 70 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: the stressors on you that happened to everybody, so nothing 71 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: should set them apart. I would assume that from a 72 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: news media standpoint, this is something that the news media 73 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: would latch onto. But at the end of the day, 74 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: you got two human beings and we're flawed and we're 75 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,119 Speaker 1: prone to violence. I mean, we truly are. That's it. 76 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: As a bottom line, we all have our measures of it. 77 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: You can push us to limits, you can get cross 78 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: ways with people, as they say, and in this case, 79 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: this is apparently happened. 80 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 2: And that's what happened in the couplehood of Anna Marie 81 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: Cochrane Rentala and her wife Kara Rentala. They had been 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: together for several years before they actually got married. They 83 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: got married in two thousand and seven. They adopted a 84 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: girl toddler or baby at the time, Brianna. But this 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: was a very volatile couple, Joe Scott. There was a 86 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: lot of jealousy, there were a lot of interpersonal relationship issues, 87 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: a lot of debt. They worked long hours, very stressful, 88 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: and both of them. When you get down to the 89 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: nitty gritty of what actually transpired and why we are 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: now heading into a fourth trial. Two hung juries, one 91 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: conviction on erroneous evidence or the judge determined to be 92 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: bad evidence, and now a fourth time. Let me give 93 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: you the description. Let's just start there. Here's the description 94 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: from the one on trial versus Anna Maria's the victim. 95 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 2: Kara is the accused. Kara claims that she and Brianna 96 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: went out to run some errands during the course of 97 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 2: the day. They've been gone for several hours. They get 98 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: home around seven o'clock at night. When they arrive in 99 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: the house, Brianna at this times of toddler, she's got 100 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: her in her arms. They've got some bags. She sets 101 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: the bags down, but she sees our door is open 102 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,559 Speaker 2: towards the basement. Down the stairs, she sees Anna Marie's feet. 103 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: She doesn't see her whole body. She sees her feet. 104 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,679 Speaker 2: That's enough for Kara to grab Brianna and the dog 105 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: and go next door and say, hey, would you mind 106 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 2: watching Brianna and our dog for lo while? And by 107 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: the way, call nine and send them to my house. 108 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: Right now. She's doing all this based on nothing but 109 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: seeing her wife's feet from the top of the stairs. 110 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: She's at the top stairs, her wife is at the 111 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 2: bottom of the basement. All she sees their feet, they're 112 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: laying down when police arrived. Joe Scott Morgan the description 113 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: given by first responders. When they arrived at the house, 114 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: they walked downstairs to the basement and they were confronted 115 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: with a bizarre scene. Anna Marie is laying base up 116 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: across the lap of Kara in the basement, and there's 117 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: paint and blood everywhere. They said that it was the 118 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: weirdest scene because there's paint, blood and the wailing woman 119 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: on the concrete floor cradling her wife's corpse. 120 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of amazing. I've had cases over the 121 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: course of my career, Dave, where you have individuals that 122 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: fall down sets of staircases, and you do have multiple trauma. 123 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: But here's the rub your body is interacting with the 124 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: forces of gravity as you are being pulled down the 125 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: staircase by gravity, you're free falling, and you don't impact 126 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: many times deep. Now listen, taller or the longer the staircase, 127 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: the bigger the opportunity is that you're going to hammer 128 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: into multiple points contact. But with most homes it essentially 129 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: ascends to the floor above and you're not going to 130 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: do much more. I don't think that these people lived 131 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: in some grand palace where there's a main staircase that 132 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: leads down to the basement where you're falling upon foot 133 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: and rolling over like some kind of movie set. So 134 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: what you would expect to see are like perhaps some bruising, 135 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: and it will be specifically concentrated on the body in 136 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: particular areas. Remember I use the term concentrated. You're not 137 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: going to have wildly dispersed injuries all over the body. 138 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: You're going to have perhaps if you hit the back 139 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: of your head, you'll have a large contusion on the 140 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: back of your head. You can bust your chin, for instance. 141 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: You can bruise your shoulder, your hip, a knee. Perhaps 142 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: you can go into the wall and fracture a rib. 143 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: Maybe you hit the handrail, that's going to be the 144 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: extent Dave. From my understanding, this victim had in excess 145 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: of twenty different bruises on her body. And you know what, 146 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't even account for the trauma that she sustained 147 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: to both her scalp and her neck. And let me 148 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: tell you something, when you take a fall and you're 149 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: looking at blunt force trauma in areas of impact, the 150 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: neck is not the first place you look. You know, 151 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: David is mentioned earlier in our conversation here. I don't 152 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: recall ever working a case where a body is just 153 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: super saturated and paint like being put forward here. But 154 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: there was something else that kind of caught my eye 155 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: with this case. One of the reports stated that as 156 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: this victim is being cradled in the lap of her wife, 157 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: the first responders noted that the body was rigid and stiff. 158 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: What's really intriguing is that you're talking about an EMT, Dave. 159 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: EMTs roll out on cases all the time. They roll 160 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: out on cases where people have been found dead, and 161 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: then they call the medical examiner after the EMT has 162 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: been there. And one of the things that you assess 163 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: in death there are what are referred to as the 164 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: cardinal signs of death. And one of the cardinal signs 165 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,599 Speaker 1: of death, I mean, you have non responsiveness to painful stimuli, 166 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: signs obviously of decomposition, but one of the things that 167 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: you look for, and as one of the cardinal signs 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: is rigidity, rigidity, development of postmortem lividity, to settling a blood, 169 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: cool to the touch, that sort of thing. And here, 170 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is glaring. I mean, I can 171 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: only imagine what was going through maybe the EMT's minds 172 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: if they know this person that is an EMT and 173 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: they're thinking, how long have you been here? 174 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: That was the first thing they all were going, Wait 175 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: a minute, they know who they're dealing with. These women 176 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: were involved as paramedics locally. That's a pretty close knit group. 177 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: From one group to the next. They do talk and 178 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: they know one another. 179 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: They're like, cops, actually there, you don't you do, but 180 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: you don't. You cannot really get into their world because 181 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: of the things they see and God blessed paramedic. I 182 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: love them. I've had them save my life, but they 183 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: are no one can really identify with the world that 184 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: they in. Dwell, it's a different kind of life. 185 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: And that's where this comes from, because they were shocked. 186 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: I had a question for you, and I want to 187 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: let me just share so everybody understands what they saw 188 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: when you mentioned the rigidk When they get down, they 189 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: see the victim, Anna Marie, her lifeless body face up 190 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 2: across Kara's lap. Kara's hysterical, she's going overboard here, and 191 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: Anna Marie's eyes were open, her arms were locked in 192 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: a quote unquote hands up position, and her body was 193 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: so stiff that it took two first responders to pry 194 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: her off her hysterical wife. Here's what they actually said, 195 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 2: though direct quote. Now, her entire body moved as one unit, 196 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 2: like a board. We're talking about. You call this riger mortis. 197 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 2: I've always heard it called rigor mortis. What is the 198 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: difference is there? 199 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: There's not. It's just it's a matter of how you 200 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: pronounce it, rigor riger tomato, tomato, And it all depends 201 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: on where you were trained. 202 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: How long does it take for riga mortis to set 203 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: in like this. 204 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: It's a gradual event. And let me dispel a few 205 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: rumors here. When you begin to think about rigidity in 206 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: a body, people will say, well, it starts in the 207 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: small muscles of the face and then kind of proceeds outward. 208 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: That's not the case. It starts in all the muscle 209 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: groups at one time. You just first appreciated in the 210 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: tiny muscle. So folks may not have heard about this before, 211 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: but you know you can get rigidity in the muscles 212 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: of the eyelids. It happens in the jaw facial muscles, 213 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: and then it kind of extends out. You'll get it 214 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: in the shoulders, elbows, fingers. One of the bigger groups 215 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: of muscles that it is last appreciated in are going 216 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: to be kind of these real robust muscles that you 217 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: have in the upper leg, like your quads and your 218 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: buttocks and that sort of thing. So it's taking time 219 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: to happen, and the process that it's going through is 220 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: I won't get too far off into the weeds and 221 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: get too sciencey with you, but in life, we have 222 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: the cycle that we study in school that's referred to 223 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: as the crib cycle, and it's a cellular respiration is 224 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: essentially what it is. And just keep in mind that 225 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: as the creb cycle spins, it creates these little balls 226 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: of energy called atp Well when it ceases, you begin 227 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:14,119 Speaker 1: to create a DP, and ADP produces something that everybody's 228 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: familiar with. As a matter of fact, let me ask 229 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: you this question if you have it, Dave, If you 230 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: haven't worked out in a while, and you decide you're 231 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: gonna go get on the bench press or whatever, and 232 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: maybe you're gonna do kettlebells and you begin lifting, and man, 233 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: you really put yourself through a workout other than close 234 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: to death. How are you going to feel the next morning? 235 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: You're going to be stiff and sorry, I know that 236 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: you did it well. 237 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: Talany'll help you, it probably will, but you know what 238 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: will happen even without the talanol. It will begin to recede. 239 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: And the reason it recedes is that you have what's 240 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: referred to as a lactic acid build up. This is 241 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: as close as you will ever feel in life as 242 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: to what it feels like when Roger Mortis sets into 243 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: a body. Now, you can tear a muscle, and that's 244 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: something different. But I'm just talking about the stiffness and 245 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: the joints. That's lactic acid. But the difference between us 246 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: and the dead is that we still have metabolic activity 247 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: going on, so we can process that lactic acid. They 248 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: can't it, their bodies can't. It has to dissipate over 249 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: period of time, and that's how we measure rigidity. So 250 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: within about an hour to four hours deep in there's 251 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: some factors here, you will begin to see some stiffening, 252 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: but it will not be fully developed. You're still looking 253 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: at a window that and none of the science is 254 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: perfectly exact, and I can see how this might be 255 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: trouble for them in court, but you're looking at a 256 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: window of maybe, and this is very broad. Sometimes six 257 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: to twelve hours before you have full development. Some people 258 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: will push it even further out. A lot of it 259 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: is dependent upon environmental temperature and then what's going on 260 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: internally with the person. Heat speeds up the reaction, So 261 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: the hotter it is, the higher the chance that rigidity 262 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: will set in. As a matter of fact, if you 263 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: have a guy, say, for instance, that is running from 264 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: the police and he's got meth on board, and the 265 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: police shoot him and kill him on the spot, rigidity 266 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: will set in quicker with that guy, as opposed to 267 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: a grandma who's essentially in stasis, that's been laying in 268 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: the bed dies overnight in her sleep. It's cool to 269 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: the touch when you touch her, but her her limbs 270 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: are still flaccid because she doesn't have the same level 271 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: of metabolic activity. And so that's one of the little 272 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: cues along the way that we look for to kind 273 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: of gauge. And I can only imagine when these folks 274 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: looked at this body being cradled by this person, and 275 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: what was kind of fascinating. The way they describe it 276 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: is they say she was in a hands up position. 277 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: Now hands up means that maybe I'm surrendering, maybe worshiping God, 278 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: whatever the case might be. But your hands are up, 279 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: it's not extended, they're up above the head. You know 280 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: what that tells me, Dave, that when you see that 281 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: position body and the hands are up above the head, 282 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: one of two things happened. Either that person died flat 283 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: on their back with her hands above their head already, 284 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: or they were face down hands extended out in front 285 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: of them and they were being choked from the rear. 286 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: So you could perhaps be choked from the front or 287 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: took from the rear, but your arms are up and extended, okay. 288 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: And her body, according to Kara, that her body was 289 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: laying flat, face down, and that Kara claims that when 290 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: she saw Anna Marie that she went down to cradle 291 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: her body and she turned her over and that's how 292 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: she was face up. But I've seen people love on 293 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: somebody who had passed away in the moments right after. 294 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: That's a given. You care about them deeply. You know 295 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: they're gone, but you just can't let go yet. I 296 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: have never seen anybody cradle a stiff corpse. It's like 297 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: a mannequin. I've never seen anybody that loved somebody that 298 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: would want that attachment, because we all want the attachment 299 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: to their life. And that just shocks me right there. 300 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: The hands up, that's another one. But she's so stiff 301 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: that they're moving her like a cartoon, And I'm thinking, 302 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 2: how did she get her turned over? Because according to 303 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 2: the according of reports from police, Anna Marie was well 304 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: over two hundred pounds. She was not a small lady. 305 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: And it took two men, two grown men, to get 306 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: Anna Marie's body off of Kara. 307 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it did. And here's another piece. When the EMT's 308 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: the first responders actually are doing their assessment, they mentioned 309 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: that they had to go through several steps in order 310 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: to what referred to in the Morgue as breaking rigger, 311 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: which means that you have to fight against the rigidity 312 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: in order to loosen up the joints so that you 313 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: can assess them. You know, maybe they think that she's 314 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: had a seizure. I don't know. I can't imagine as 315 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: a practitioner, an EMS practitioner, what you're thinking, because you 316 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: know your job is to save life. So you're looking 317 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: for a place you can put in an IV line. 318 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: You're trying to assess if there's any kind of trauma 319 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: that you can kind of stem bleeding from. You're looking 320 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: to try to stabilize them. Look, you've got a person 321 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: that is apparently found deceased at the bottom of a staircase. 322 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: And one of the things that really stands out is 323 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: when you think about this, you're thinking about a cerebral 324 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: spinal injury. So they're taught from Jump Street, hey, look, 325 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: you've got to stabilize that neck. You've got to do 326 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: whatever you can, and so they're going through all of 327 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: these calculations in their mind. But then at some point 328 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: in time they have this reality check where they look 329 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: and they say, she's literally stiff as a board. In 330 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: a death investigation, it is not that one thing. It 331 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: is the sum total of all things considered that you 332 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: discover at a scene, back at the morgue, through interview 333 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: of subjects and for the police interrogation, it's that sum total. 334 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: But in the world of science that myself and my 335 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: colleagues in habit, we're trying to determine, Dave, what is 336 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: it that the body can tell us about what has happened? 337 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: And one of the biggest questions that you always get 338 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: when you go out to the scene as a medical 339 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: legal death investigator from police officers. They'll look at us 340 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: and they'll say how long, Because if they can establish 341 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: how long relative to when life ceased, that is the 342 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: beginning of the trail for them to establish a timeline. Hey, 343 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: there's even a show out there that's named forty eight hours. 344 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: It's one of the most popular television shows anywhere. And 345 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: there's a reason forty eight hours is very important, and 346 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: in my world it's certainly important. Time is the currency 347 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: in which we work. 348 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: In all right, Joe. When they got there, when first 349 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 2: responders got there, once they realized that the person is dead, 350 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: they're making mental notes about everything there, all the paint 351 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 2: and blood. I was looking over that because they're trying 352 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: to determine where the blood was coming from, right, and 353 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 2: they noticed that bruises. I got a question about the 354 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: bruises too, But they noticed a number of lacerations on 355 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: her scalp and blood coming from those. I guess, But 356 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: does a lot of blood come that way? And what 357 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: it mixed with the paint? But other than that, the bruises. 358 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 2: How long does it take for bruises to show up 359 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: on a body if the person's dead. 360 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, that's a fascinating question. And bruises. First off, 361 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: let me kind of dispel this. Dead bodies don't bruise. 362 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: So any kind of contusion, which is a fancy word 363 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: for a bruise, a contusion, it has to arise in 364 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: an anti mortem state. That means before death. And so 365 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: if you've got a fight that's going on when an 366 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: individual is sustaining blunt force trauma, because that's where bruises 367 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: come from. Bruises result from the impact of being struck 368 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: by something. It can be a baseball bat, it can 369 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: be in a car accident, or it can be a 370 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: fist or a foot or a Headbut when that impact occurs, 371 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: those little capillary beds just beneath the skin are being ruptured, 372 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: plain and simple, that's what's happening. But you're not breaking 373 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: skin with a bruise. As they're being ruptured, the blood 374 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: seeps out into what's referred to as the interstitial tissue, 375 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: and so that's those areas that surround the vessels and 376 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: that's what creates the bruise well as you know, as 377 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: any person in the sound of my voice knows. And 378 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: once you have a bruise, it changes color over period time. 379 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: That's another way that we try to tell the history 380 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: or tell the story of what happens. So if you've 381 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: got a bruise that is red, that means that that's 382 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: an immediate event. Once it goes from black to blue 383 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: or blue to black, then you're talking about maybe a 384 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: day up to four days. And then it goes I think, 385 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: I know I'm going to get this wrong. Then it 386 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: goes to green, then it gets to that nasty yellow 387 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: color that we all see, and then it's gone and 388 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: actually in and this is one of the things we 389 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: use when we're trying to assess child abuse cases because 390 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: you can have these different colors all over the bodies 391 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: and so contusions are very important as to what we do. 392 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: But once that contusion is there, and it can be 393 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: just immediately prior to death, it's going to be there. 394 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: There's no eradicating it. Even when a body is prepared 395 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: at the mortuary, the bruise doesn't go away. They have 396 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: to put makeup over it because they're infusing the vessels, 397 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: they're not infusing the interstitial tissue, so you have to 398 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: cover it with makeup or whatever it is that the 399 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: morticians do. So that's very important. And for every contusion 400 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: that you have, there is a physical explanation as to 401 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 1: why it arose, and that means that that's a direct 402 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: result of impact. Now you mentioned that there were lacerations 403 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: that were on the head. Now, lacerations also come about 404 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: as a result of blood forced trauma. It's just that 405 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: there's more force required my path parts. From my friends 406 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: in therapeutic medicine in this area, they will refer commonly, 407 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: particularly in the emergency room. Don't be mad at me 408 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: for saying this. They refer to everything as a laceration, 409 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: and everything is not a laceration for us. We have 410 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: lacerations those arise from blunt force trauma, and then you 411 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: have sharp force injuries which are in sized areas. Blunt 412 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: force trauma generates lacerations, so one of the things you 413 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: look for is something called tissue bridging, and they're irregular, 414 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: they're very jagged, thank Frankenstein. And so if you're struck 415 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: in the head and it creates this jagged injury, when 416 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: you see that gaping wound, you know that it's not 417 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: an incized area because a mild blade hasn't been taken 418 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: to it. You've got these little bits of tissue. If 419 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: you've ever handled something like a piece of meat or 420 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: something that you're eating and you pull it apart, the 421 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: tissue gets real string. It's the same principle with elaceration. 422 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: I'll have these real they're called tissue bridges, and you 423 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: can differentiate between an incized area and e laceration because 424 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: it's still connected. It's not a clean slice, and you've 425 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: got multiple of these. But for every laceration, every contusion, 426 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: you have to have a point of impact. They don't 427 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: just magically appear. The wind doesn't create them. So it 428 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: has to be a strike, it has to be a fall, 429 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: and you're kind of limited. If you're talking about all 430 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: of these injuries, which there were a plethora of them 431 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: all over her. If you're trying to say that this 432 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: was merely caused by a fall from even the top 433 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: end of the staircase, maybe if she fell down two 434 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: hundred steps, you might have a chance at seeing a 435 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: contusion on multiple areas of the body. But just leading 436 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: down to the basement, it's a horrible thing to happen. 437 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: I've fallen downstairs. You've probably fallen downstairs, Dave, But you're 438 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: not going to generate this number of injuries without a 439 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: direct strike. 440 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: I have fallen down basement stairs, but you tend to 441 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 2: slip on those. As an adult, we don't go into 442 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: over end. Children do that, but as adults we tend 443 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: to slip and our feet go out and we go 444 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: on our butt all the way down, and that hurts. 445 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: But I know that I've been accused of sitting on 446 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: my brain sometimes, but very rarely have I landed on 447 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: my button, torn a hold in my head. Got other 448 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: things we got to get do on this, because we've 449 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: got paint everywhere, and by the way, all the bruising, 450 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: all the contusions, all the blood, none of that had 451 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: anything to do with the cause of death. Joe, You've 452 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: got blood everywhere and paint. Why are we having paint 453 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 2: and blood together? I'm really confused here. Can paramedics do 454 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: they know how to set up a crime scene so 455 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: that it looks like somebody fell down the stairs? Oh? 456 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: I suit you're saying, yeah, I mean, could. 457 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: A paramedic come up with this as a reasonable idea? 458 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 2: Because well, by the way, need to throw this out there. Kara, 459 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: while the first responders are there, suggests that Anna Marie 460 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: has fallen down the stairs. But while they're still cleaning 461 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: the body, I know, I'm the first suspect. Well, falling 462 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 2: down the stairs is not crime, so you would not 463 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 2: be a suspect in that. So throwing out the idea 464 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 2: that it's a criminal act when you just said she 465 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 2: fell down the stairs and again remember her story. She 466 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: had been gone all day, comes home with their toddler, Brianna. 467 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 2: At the bottom of the stairs, she sees Anna Marie 468 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 2: feet laying in the basement in paint and leaves on 469 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: that note. That's what we know. That's what she said. 470 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: But then the crime scene itself, the body itself. Joe, 471 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: you've already told us all the things that have happened 472 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 2: with that body. The fact that riger Mortiz has not 473 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 2: just set in, but she's fixed like a board. And 474 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: we've got twenty three bruises. We've got lacerations of the head. 475 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: We pointed out by the way, I didn't know that 476 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: about it. I really did think that all. When they 477 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: said laceration, I kind of thought it was like a 478 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: cut with a knife. 479 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: Not in the medical legal sense. So I always take 480 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: exception with that. I try not to be a know 481 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: at all. But if somebody says laceration and it's a cut, no, 482 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: that's not a laceration. 483 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: See you're looking at this crime scene, Joe, what is 484 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: sticking out to you on the body? What is sticking 485 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: out to you there with the Do you see these 486 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 2: all as factors working towards the death of Ana Marie? 487 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it would have to be 488 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: kind of like blood stained pattern analysis. To a certain degree, 489 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: blood is viscous. It's thicker than water. We've heard that 490 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: term before, haven't we, But in the little sense that's 491 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: why they say that it is thicker than water, it's 492 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: more viscous. Paint is even more viscous than blood. So 493 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: my understanding is that there was an open paint container down. 494 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: There five gallon It was a five gallon container. 495 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, a five gallon one. And so if what you're 496 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: putting forth to me is that she falls while toating 497 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: this five gallon container, you're going to have a very 498 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: dynamic event depended upon if you can figure out where 499 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: the paint can or paint container actually strikes first, and 500 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: if it is kind of spinning in the air and 501 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of literally you know, we use this term 502 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: in bloodstain analysis called cast off, where you have blood 503 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: issuing off the tip of a blade or a bludgeon 504 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: or something like that, We actually refer to it as 505 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: painting the walls of blood. Is it that kind of 506 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: dynamic thing or is the dynamicism of the blood limited 507 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: to kind of a slow pore, And that can be 508 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: assessed because if you have blood that is thrown off 509 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: of a bludgeon, it's going to have kind of an 510 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: arcing appearance to it. Some of it will be the 511 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: droplets will be very fine, and the higher the velocity, 512 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: the finer the drops. But with this, if you're talking 513 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: about paint, let's just say, for instance, someone did take 514 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: paint and dump it on her body, literally pouring it 515 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: on her body. The dynamics of the flow the poor, 516 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: if you will, would need to be examined. I'm really 517 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 1: wondering if they've done that. And given the fact that 518 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: she is literally covered in paint, I'd like to know 519 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: how closely the clothing was examined by the criminalists back 520 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: at the crime lab. Now, her body would have been 521 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: transported from the scene to the emmy's office, and once 522 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: she had gotten to the emmy's office, she would have 523 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: been undressed. They would not It's not like, hey, take 524 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: these clothes and throw them in the washing machine. We're 525 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: going to get the paint out. No no, no, no, no, no, that's 526 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: not what's happening. Those clothes individually. We're talking about shirt, painties, bra, socks, pants, shoes, individually, 527 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: packaged and taken to the crime lab for them to analyze. 528 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: And if a bloodstained person could come in and analyze 529 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: that paint and give us an idea about the dynamics 530 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: of the spreading of the paint over the body, that 531 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: would be a fascinating issue with this. But one of 532 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: the things I think the third trial, which was mind 533 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: blowing to me, the prosecution actually brought in somebody that 534 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: they claimed was an expert in determining at what rate 535 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: paint dries, and this smacked of I just have to 536 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: say this the Kaylee Anthony homicide case. And this is 537 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: why because they brought in this fellow who testified to 538 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: the smell of human decomposition, and that so called science 539 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: was thrown out the door. And in this case this 540 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: has been overturned because the appellate court ruled that there's 541 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: not enough science to back this up, Like you have 542 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: to be able to test this thing outside the court. 543 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: You know how much how many papers have been written 544 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: about this. It does it is scientifically valid. In this 545 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: particular case, they couldn't validate it. And that's that's the reason. 546 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: The third time they didn't get a conviction. Well they 547 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: got a conviction, but it was overturned based upon this 548 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: one expert that came in to testify about the drying 549 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: rates of paint. 550 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: And what was fascinating to me, Joe about the paint 551 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 2: just throwing this out there because I actually went through 552 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: this one is getting white paint. Sometimes when you put 553 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: white paint on a wall or a ceiling in particular, 554 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: it has a pink tint to it. And the reason 555 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: for that is because if you're painting a room white 556 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: and you're painting on top of white, you don't know 557 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: where you've been, and so it comes out out of 558 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 2: the camp and it's kind of pink when you're putting 559 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: it on the wall, but it dries white. And that 560 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: was one of the things here, because you're going, well, 561 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 2: there is either so much blood that it tinted the 562 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 2: paint red or it had been spilled recently to cover 563 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 2: up a scene, and it was still pink. An amazing thing, 564 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: but you go, you're right about how jacked up it 565 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: was when you don't have the science backing you up 566 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: and you come up with the night you and I 567 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: could have formulated a better opinion, Joe. 568 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: I think so, Dave. And the real interesting thing about 569 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: this the blood evidence that they had. They had a 570 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: couple of spots that they could not necessarily tie back 571 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: to the victim, and so you've got this commingling of 572 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: this paint, and it puts forth quite the conundrum. If 573 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: you've got blood, human blood that is in fact commingled 574 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,479 Speaker 1: with paint, how can you go about and separate that 575 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: and does it compromise the integrity those things that we 576 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: would use to identify the blood and then type the 577 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: blood and even do a DNA analysis of the blood. 578 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: We know that she has got fatal injuries, and this 579 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: is the way the me had ruled. And this is 580 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: what really kind of brings us home to me. She's 581 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: got what appear to be circumferential contusions around her neck, 582 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: which they consider to be consistent with an apixial death, 583 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: almost like a manual strangulation. So as the neck is 584 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: being squeezed, you get these focal areas of hemorrhage. And 585 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: she's got PATIKII, which means that the little vessels in 586 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: her eyes, maybe around her lips and in her nose 587 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: even have burst. And that's because of this kind of 588 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: facial pressure in the blood vessels and they have exploded. 589 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: And so that's when we see this, and that again 590 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: is another fast You don't get this from falling down 591 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: a staircase. 592 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: That's what I was going to ask you to If 593 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: you've got what does the blood mean, if the cause 594 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: of death is strangulation, what do the bruises mean if 595 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: the cause of death is strangulation. If the cause of 596 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: death is strangulation, then she could have been playing in 597 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 2: a football game that afternoon without a helmet and gotten 598 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: bruised in bloody and then came home. If none of 599 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: that matters, strangulation is the cause, what are you going 600 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: to find on her neck? If it is manual's strangulation, 601 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: what are you going to see? 602 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you're externally You're going to see marks and 603 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: they will come up as contoosed areas because it's not 604 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: like a direct like if you think about someone taking 605 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: their hand and punching soft tissue, like punching somebody in 606 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: the chest or on the arm. It's kind of a 607 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: slow burn. With direct pressure applied to the neck, you'll 608 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: see these red areas around the neck. It's a lot 609 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: more pronounced when you have a ligature like a rope 610 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: that's around the neck, but you can still see it 611 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: with hands. And where it's most mind blowing is when 612 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: you get into the neck dissection. It's when we in 613 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: the morgue we call it reflection of the neck. So 614 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: the neck, the tissue of the neck, the external tissue 615 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: of the skin, if you will, is literally flipped back 616 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: and we can see all of the muscles in the 617 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: neck and you look for what to refer to, these 618 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: kind of interlaced muscles on the front part of the 619 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: neck called strap muscles. That's what perpetrators go after. And 620 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: they run on either side of our trachea, and as 621 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: they squeeze down on the trachia, they're also applying pressure 622 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: to these strap muscles and they get hemorrhage in them. 623 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: And you don't get that from somebody falling on a staircase. Now, 624 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: if they fell on a staircase, let's see, how could 625 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: they sustain that? If they fell, you could maybe fall 626 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: from a height and your point of impact would be 627 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: your neck onto an iron bar. And in the old 628 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: days when they had gigantic steering wheels and cars before restraints, 629 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: I've seen them where I've actually seen high one hyoid 630 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: bone fractured from striking a steering wheel on a gigantic 631 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: Pontiac sedan. That's the only way you're going to get 632 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: this other than manual strangulation. You've got this entire cacophony 633 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: of injuries on this woman's body. And it seems as 634 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: though they had enough data to convince a jury with 635 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: they decided to go down this rabbit hole with the 636 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: trying of paint, and I just I don't intellectually, I 637 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: don't understand the value, and that is what it comes 638 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: down to. 639 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 2: It sounds to me like the defense did a good 640 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 2: job of confusing the prosecution. And I'm not being a 641 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: lawyer here. If the cause of death is strangulation, why 642 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 2: are we worrying about anything else? 643 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: I really I have no idea, but suffice it to 644 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: say that Kara Rentala is currently on trial for a 645 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: fourth time, and like in all cases, she is innocent 646 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: until proven guilty. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.