1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the Platus 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Tracy V. Wilson. So, if you listen to the podcast 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: for very long, you know I've lived in the South 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: my whole life, right, And even though the Supreme Court 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: struck down segregation in America in nineteen fifty two with 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: the decision on Brown versus the Topeka Board of Education, 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: most of my K through twelve education was actually heavily 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: influenced by the legacy of segregation and racism. Mine too. Yeah. 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: I went to public schools in a system that had 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: to bust children to different places to try to maintain 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: the racial balance and schools. I think until I was 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: in tenth grade, we had one family that was not 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: white attending our school. Yeah. Yeah, there was nowhere to 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: There's no one to bust in. Yeah, it was kind 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: of a pretty homogenized community. Yeah, the our school system really, 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: Like I lived in a in a part of the 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: county that had some predominantly African American neighborhoods and some 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: predominantly white neighborhoods, and and depending on how the other 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: parts of the school districts were worth trending. That's where 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: boundary lines would move a lot. So sometimes I would 22 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: be on a bus that was like driving past two 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: predominant neighborhoods of one race or another, or on a 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: bus that was picking up all of those kids. It's 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: sort of depended. So that was really heavily in my consciousness, 26 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: and the idea of segregation as a subject that related 27 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: to Caucasian children and African American children like that is 28 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: how my experience of of race and segregation has been. 29 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons that I've really thought before, 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: and it's on the list somewhere about doing an episode 31 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: about Brown versus to peak a Board of Education. Um, 32 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: I kind of. I'm really interested in who those people 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: were and how that all played out. We may really 34 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: still do that, but that also does get a lot 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: of air time in most history classes, you know, yeah, 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: more than other racial relations issues, to get a little 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: more pushed to the side. Most people have heard of. 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: I know some things about Brown versus Board. Yeah, I 39 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: think I did not know about the case we're going 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: to talk about at all today. I didn't either. I 41 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: certainly never heard about it growing up. Yeah, and where 42 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: I grew up now has a much broader spectrum of 43 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: people who live in the area. Uh, but it was 44 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: really primarily about white children and African American children. Uh. 45 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: This was really not the case in for example, the 46 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: American Southwest, where Mexican children were segregated away from white children. 47 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: And the case that changed that in the state of 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: California was Mendez versus west Minster, which really went on 49 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: to pave the way for the much more well known 50 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. 51 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: And a note on language. At the time, Uh, everybody 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: was pretty much using the word Mexican to apply to people, 53 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: whether they were actually from Mexico or had Mexican heritage. 54 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: So today we have much more nuanced classifications for people, 55 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: but a lot of the language at the time just 56 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: used Mexican, has this blanket term for everyone. So we're 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: going to talk about Mexican and Mexican American. We're gonna 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: use lots of different words, but that doesn't quite reflect 59 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: what people were using at the time in terms of language. 60 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: So first of allly the groundwork. Yeah, when the Mexican 61 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: American War ended in eighteen forty, the US gained territory 62 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: from Mexico, where Mexicans were already living, and the people 63 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: that were affected by this had a choice. Uh they 64 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: could relocate to the territory Mexico had retained, or they 65 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: could stay in the you know, need States, and Mexicans 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: still in the United States a year after this all 67 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: went down would then be considered American citizens. Right. What 68 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: was supposed to happen was that Mexicans who stayed in 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: the United States territory would gain all the rights of 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: citizenship upon being there for a year. What really happened 71 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: was that discriminatory laws and social norms went into effect 72 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: pretty much immediately or built on laws that were already there. 73 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: But even so, people moved from Mexico to the United 74 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: States for a range of political and economic reasons. Um 75 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: there were a lot of things going on in Mexico 76 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: that caused that, including many of them were fleeing the 77 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: Mexican Revolution which started in nineteen ten, and until nineteen 78 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: twenty four there weren't any laws prohibiting Mexicans from entering 79 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: the United States, so a different climate in terms of 80 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: um immigration than there is now. Right. There are also 81 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: some big incentives for moving to the American side of 82 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: the border. The United States started restricting immigration from several 83 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: Asian countries starting in the late eighteen eighties, and then 84 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: during and after World War One, the United States also 85 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: started restricting immigration from parts of Europe, and without an 86 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: immigrant population um coming into the country, this led to 87 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: a labor shortage in some parts of the United States, 88 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: so in response, employers started to try to recruit more 89 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: labor from Mexico and Puerto Rico. This was especially true 90 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: in California as the agriculture industry really started to boom. 91 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: Uh And of course, after years of legal back and forth, 92 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: residents of Puerto Rico became American citizens in nineteen seventeen. Though, 93 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: because they physically resembled Mexicans and they spoke Spanish, Puerto 94 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: Ricans were often lumped in with Mexicans in the eyes 95 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: of many Americans. People would use the word Mexican to 96 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: apply to both Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, which is not 97 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: accurate at all in the least um but because of, 98 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, some similarities that people would sort of apply 99 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: the same standard to two completely different gips of people. 100 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: Because of these and other factors, the Mexican and Mexican 101 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: American population in California tripled between nineteen twenty and nineteen thirty, 102 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: and that trend actually shifted a bit with the coming 103 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: of the Great Depression. So when the Hoover administration launched 104 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: an effort to depoor illegal aliens, that change things. It 105 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: led to both the deportation of Mexicans who were in 106 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: the United States illegally and American citizens of Mexican descent. 107 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: This effort increased tensions, of course between Mexican American and 108 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: Anglo American communities right so there were people with Mexican 109 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: heritage who were citizens of the United States who chose 110 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: to go back to Mexico during this time and people 111 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: who were deported back to Mexico during this time. Although 112 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: many people came to the United States from Mexico because 113 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: of the promise of work, a lot of times this 114 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: did not actually work out well. It was really exhausting 115 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: work under very poor conditions for very low pay, and 116 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: so unemployment quickly became a big problem in Mexican American 117 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: communities along with us the spread of illnesses because of 118 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: living conditions and overcrowding, so predominantly Mexican neighborhoods tended to 119 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: be very poor in this part of the United States, 120 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: but they were also very close knit with very strong 121 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: support networks within the community. So even though people did 122 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: not have a lot of money or a lot of 123 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: food or a lot of healthcare, they really were trying 124 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: to support each other within their community. So at the 125 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: same time, looking at it in the context of schools, 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: school funding in California was tied to race as early 127 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: as eighteen fifty five, and that's when school budgets were 128 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: based on the number of white students and only white 129 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: students in the county. In short order, however, students who 130 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: were not white were restricted from attending white schools entirely. Right, 131 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: the only the white students counted is the bottom line 132 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: is that's the bottom line. And so since only white 133 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: students counted, only white students were allowed to go to 134 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: the better schools that were getting most of the money. 135 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: In the United States, Supreme Court ruled that having separate 136 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: facilities for people of different races was constitutional as long 137 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: as those facilities were equal, and that was the famous 138 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: plus e versus Ferguson decision. So segregated classrooms were really 139 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: it became the norm for many races and ethnicities in 140 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: many parts of the parts of the United States, and 141 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: apart from the financial considerations that were involved uh in 142 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: school budgets, school boards were genuinely worried about the health 143 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: and language skills of Mexican American students since so many 144 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: Mexicans were living in poverty and in generally poor living conditions. 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: Some children were you know, arriving at school in the 146 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: morning hungry or without having bathed, and illnesses, including serious 147 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: ones like tuberculosis, would spread rapidly because of the overcrowding 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: and a lack of access to medical care. Unfortunately, at 149 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: least some administrators and board members associated these traits not 150 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: with poverty but with being Mexican, so they attributed it 151 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: to a racial issue instead of just the fact that 152 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: they were living, in some cases, really really rough conditions. 153 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: There were also a couple of real factors that did 154 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: work against many Mexican American students when it came to 155 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: keeping up with the rest of the class. Because a 156 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: lot of Mexican workers were holding seasonal migrant jobs, Mexican 157 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: American children were often pulled out of school for months 158 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: at a time as their parents moved to follow work. 159 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: This would cause students to fall behind and have to 160 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: repeat grades. And some Mexican American families primarily spoke Spanish, 161 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: which school board members thought would make it hard for 162 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,479 Speaker 1: the children to keep up in an English language classroom. 163 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: This today seems very silly, considering how many people will 164 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: put their children on waiting lists for second language immersion school. Yes, 165 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: but at the time, the solution, and we put that 166 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: in air quotes to all of these problems was to 167 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: educate Mexican students separately. And although these facility facilities were 168 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: supposed to be equal, in reality, they really did tend 169 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: to be inferior in pretty much every respect, from the 170 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: way the spaces that they were learning and were constructed, 171 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: to how much the teachers and administrators involved in their 172 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: education were paid. That was basically the case in in 173 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: separate but supposedly equal facilities across the board, regarding pretty 174 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: much every race and ethnicity. If there was a separate 175 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: facility for a man minority population in general, that facility 176 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: was inferior um. So this was not just related to 177 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: California or or Mexican American students. On top of this 178 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: inferiority in the buildings and the teacher pay and all 179 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: of those sorts of things. The curriculum in classrooms for 180 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: Mexican American children and was often geared to do two things, 181 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: to assimilate Mexican children into American culture and to prepare 182 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: them for a life of labor. In some schools, boys 183 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: learned trade skills and gardening, while girls learned sewing and 184 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: homemaking instead of having any academic part of their their 185 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: subject work. That kind of makes my blood boil. As 186 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: with many episodes, this is one where just the layers 187 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: of offensiveness pile on the deeper we get into something. Yeah, 188 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: it's hard to stay sort of neutral with the information 189 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: at hand because it just it makes my blood boil. 190 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: By nine thirteen, Mexican children were being taught in different classrooms, 191 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: and the first segregated school in Orange County, California, which 192 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: is where the Mendees family lived, started in nineteen nine. Occasionally, 193 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: gifted Mexican children could potentially go to a white school 194 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: if they agreed to being inspected and visited by white 195 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: school administrat So, if if a Mexican American fild was 196 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: particularly stellar in in academic ability, that child might be 197 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: able to go to a white school if their family 198 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: agreed to like home visits from school administrators, and I 199 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: wonder how they would identify students that could academically really 200 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: kind of why when there's no academic parts in their curriculum. Yeah, 201 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: that's a great question. By there were fifteen Mexican only 202 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: schools in Orange County, and between eighty and ninety percent 203 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: of schools in the South and the Southwest segregated Mexican children. 204 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: And there were also other court cases along these lines 205 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: that were happening before the case that we're discussing today, 206 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: including Alvarez versus Lemon Grove School District and Salvadierra versus 207 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: Del Rio Independent School District. But these cases, which found 208 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: in favor of Mexican American families, either didn't have an 209 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: effect outside the school system in question and for legal reasons, 210 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: or they got overturned during an appeals process. And as 211 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: sort of a side note, schools were not the only 212 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: places where Mexicans are being segregated. They're also served last 213 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: in restaurants after white families had been served. There were 214 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: racially restricted covenants that allowed Mexicans only to buy property 215 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: in certain neighborhoods and some public pools. Mexicans could only 216 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: swim one day a week, and the next day the 217 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: pool would be drained and cleaned. While we're thinking about 218 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: that happy picture, um and trying to make our blood 219 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: not boil, we're going to take a brief moment and 220 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: talk about lumosity. So, Holly, you and I both exercise, Yeah, 221 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: but we mostly are exercising our bodies and not so 222 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: much our brains. Yeah. It's just a slug a lot 223 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: of the time. Yeah, which is sort of what's why 224 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: luosity dot com is an awesome thing to kind of 225 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: have a personal trainer or your brain or your nogging. 226 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: I would like to say that it does feel like 227 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: somebody who's just kicking my brain into gear. Yeah, in 228 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: a really good way. Yeah. So, based on the science 229 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: of neuroplasticity, leumosity dot com gives you customized online workouts 230 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: and so they're like exercises, but they're fun because they're 231 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: also gains uh and therefore your brain. And it only 232 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: takes a little while, like a ten or fifteen minutes 233 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: a day, Yeah, and you can be making your brain actually, 234 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: um sort of have better mental acuity, right, I have 235 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: sharpener focus. I have a useless block of time in 236 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: my mornings. It's between two meetings and it's about eight 237 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: minutes long. And previously I've been like that, I'm what 238 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. I'm gonna tidy my desk for eight minutes. 239 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: Now I'll do some lumosity so I can try to 240 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: be a little sharper, a little more focused, boost my 241 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: problem solving skills, or maybe just think a little more clearly. Yeah, 242 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: because Lumosity will actually let you customize your program. So 243 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: if there's one of those areas you really feel like 244 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: you're struggling with, like you can try to do exercises. 245 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: The will help the part of your brain that helps 246 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: you remember people's names after you meet them, or the 247 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: part of your brain that helps you not misplace things, 248 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: which was my primary focus. My primary focus was to 249 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: be flexibility because my job involves being constantly pulled away 250 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: from what I'm doing all the time. However, it turns 251 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: out that I do exceptionally well with that already, So 252 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: instead I'm working on my memory. We have been using 253 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,119 Speaker 1: it and it's been a little bit startling in some regards, 254 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: and that like I would not have picked the area 255 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: that I excel in as the area I excel in, 256 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: which is problem solving. I would have thought I would 257 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: have rated hirghing flexibility, but new So that's an area 258 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: I need to work on. And I mean it's a 259 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: little nice reality check that, yes, you need to be 260 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: exercising these portions of your brain because otherwise they do 261 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: just kind of uh atrophy you. If you don't use it, 262 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: you're losing it. So if you would like to get 263 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: on his action, which is extremely fun and also challenge Jane, 264 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: go to lumosity dot com today, click the start training 265 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: button to create your own program and then just start 266 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: playing your first game that's lumosity dot com and tell 267 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: them that you heard about it on How Stuff Works. 268 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: So let's return to the story of the Mendez family. 269 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: Gonzalo and Felicitas Mendez were the parents in Mendez Versus Westminster. 270 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: Gonzalo was originally from HuaHua, Mexico, and along with his 271 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: mother and four siblings, he immigrated to Westminster, California in 272 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen. He actually attended Westminster Main School, the same 273 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: school his children were eventually barred from attending. UH when 274 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: he was a child, although in his late elementary years, 275 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: he was briefly sent to a segregated school. He and 276 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: his classmates, who were fluent in English, were eventually transferred 277 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: back to Westminster Main although he had to drop out 278 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: to work as an orange picker because his family needed 279 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: the money. He was naturalized as an American citizen when 280 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: he was thirty years old. Felicitas was from Puerto Rico. 281 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: She and her family had moved to Arizona from Puerto 282 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: Rico in nineteen six and they stayed there for about 283 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: six months. The working condition for Puerto Ricans there where 284 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: they were living were terrible, and felicitas family had participated 285 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: in protests against these terrible working conditions, I am the 286 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: fact that their pay was dramatically less from what they 287 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: had been promised before they emigrated. Felicitas's family then moved 288 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: to California to a predominantly Mexican neighborhood, where she later 289 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: met Gonzalo and the pair were married in nineteen thirty five. 290 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: They opened a cantina in the Mexican barrio of Santa Anna, 291 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: and their business was successful and eventually they saved enough 292 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 1: money to buy a house. They had three children who 293 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: are extremely important to this story. Clivia, Gonzalo Jr. And Jerome. 294 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: In nineteen forty three, when the children were all still 295 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: under the age of ten, their banker got in touch 296 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: with them about an asparagus farm in Westminster. It was 297 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: owned by the Minimatsu family, a Japanese family who was 298 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: being relocated to an internment camps. A whole other topic 299 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: we could discuss great length the mini meats. Who's knew 300 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: that they were likely to lose the farm if they 301 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: couldn't find a tenant, and they offered to lease it 302 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: to the Mendes family to protect it under the intern 303 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: until their internment was over. Yeah. Their hope was that 304 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: if they had people who were living there and working 305 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: it for them, that eventually their internment would be over 306 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: and they would be able to compete return to their property. Unfortunately, 307 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: I do not have knowledge of how that ultimately turned out. 308 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: Topics for future topics for Yeah, I think we do 309 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: need a future podcast. I need to first look in 310 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: the archive and see if there already is one a 311 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: future podcast on the internment of Japanese people during World 312 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: War Two. So the Menda's family agreed to lease the farm. 313 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: They closed their cafe, rented out their home and moved 314 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: to live on the aspair Is farm. Gonzelo sister Solidad 315 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: and her husband Frank Vadari went with them. Frank had 316 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: experienced running a farm, so he was a logical person 317 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: has to be involved in this endeavor, and this was 318 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: just It was a really successful enterprise. It spanned forty acres, 319 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: it employed up to thirty people. Uh And meanwhile Gonzolo 320 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: also managed another farm in the area, and the whole 321 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: family really continued to prosper When they moved to the farm. 322 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: They moved from the barrio to a neighborhood in the 323 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: Westminster School District where there was only one other Mexican 324 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: American family. In the fall of nineteen forty four, Solidad 325 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: took the children to enroll in Westminster Main School, also 326 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: known as the Seventeenth Street School. So Solidad was of 327 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: Mexican American heritage also, but she had lighter skin and 328 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: she had a last name that didn't sound Mexican. So 329 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: the teacher who was doing the enrollment told her that 330 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: her her children could go to Westminster Main School, but 331 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: that the Mendez children would have to go to the 332 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: Mexican school. They had to go to Hoover Elementary instead 333 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: of Westminster Main School, which, as we discussed earlier, was 334 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: generally inferior. The building was in poor condition, there was 335 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: no playground, the textbooks were a very dissortment in a 336 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: collection of hand me downs from white schools in the area, 337 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: so probably out of date. Lunch was eaten outside on 338 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: picnic tables, and since part of the school property was 339 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: adjacent to a cow pasture, there were flies everywhere and 340 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: the manure smell permeated the school area. Right So solidd 341 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: said that if the Mendo's children could not attend Westminster Main, 342 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: her children would not be going there either, and she left. 343 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: When Gonzalo and Felicitas heard about this, they were both 344 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: understandably outraged. They were both citizens of the United States 345 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: and they saw no reason why their children should not 346 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: attend the school in the district where they lived. So 347 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: they went to talk to the principle and they were 348 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: told that no, the children had to attend the Mexican school. 349 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: Then they went to both the Westminster and Orange County 350 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: school boards and they just kept getting the same answer 351 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: from everyone. Everyone was still know they have to go 352 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: to the Mexican school. Gonzalo contacted lawyer David C. Marcus, 353 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: who had recently successfully argued another California civil rights case 354 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: involving whether Mexicans could be banned from public swimming pools. 355 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: That answer was no, they could not. They discovered that 356 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: Mexican and Mexican American children were routinely being segregated in 357 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: Orange County. This wasn't actually required or allowed by law, 358 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: though the Education Code actually read quote, the governing Board 359 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: of any school District may establish separate schools for Indian children, 360 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: accepting children of Indians who are awards the United States Government, 361 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: and children of all other Indians who are descendants of 362 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: the original American Indians of the United States, and for 363 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: children of Chinese, Japanese or Mongolian parentage. So there were 364 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: actual segregation laws on the books, but none of them 365 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: mentioned Mexican American children, right. So this put them into 366 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: kind of an interesting position as far as wanting to 367 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: to fight what was going on, because there wasn't actually 368 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: a law to try to repeal um. So first they 369 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: tried to get the support of other Mexican families in 370 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: the district to file a class action suit, but many 371 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: of the families they talked to actually didn't want the 372 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: school board to change its policy. The Mexican school that 373 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: their children attended was right in the middle of the 374 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: barrio where they were living. It was extremely convenient, so 375 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: the parents liked that they had their children close by, 376 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: that they could walk their children to school in the morning, 377 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: that children could come home at lunchtime. There were real 378 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: practical reasons that people liked having their children in a 379 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: school that was in their neighborhood um and so that 380 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: that made it a little tricky for them to start 381 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: to build a case, and believing that they'd have better 382 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: success if they could prove that it wasn't just the 383 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: Westminster School district in question, Anzalo and his attorney actually 384 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: toured the area and they interviewed families and looked for 385 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: other people that would be willing to join the suit. 386 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: So outside of their area they expanded to trying to 387 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: find some support and other people that would rally along 388 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: with their cause right and eventually four other families did 389 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: join them, the families of Lorenzo Ramirez, Frank Palomino, William Guzman, 390 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: and Tomasa Estrada. Some of these families included veterans from 391 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: World War Two, These are people who had just returned 392 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: from fighting for their country, specifically fighting Nazis for their country, 393 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: and they were really unwilling to accept treatment as second 394 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: class citizens once they got back. And with their involvement, 395 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: the defendants included for school districts so Westminster, which the 396 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: Mendez family had, you know, started this groundswell in Santa 397 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: Anna Garden Grove and Elma Dana which is Orange. Yes. Meanwhile, 398 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: Phelicitas and other mothers continued to pressure our school boards 399 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: to try to change their decisions. Belasitas also helped organize 400 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: the Association on Depadres the Menos Mexican Americanos I'm just 401 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: gonna apologize for my pronunciation, i am not fluent in Spanish, 402 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: to show support during the trial. All of this was 403 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 1: extremely brave on a number of levels. The Mendez family 404 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: and the other families faced the possibility of racist retribution 405 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: from the Anglo community and anger from people in the 406 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: Mexican American community who didn't want this suit to go forward. 407 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: Many laborers also ran financial risks associated with the trial 408 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: and they would be missing work to testify. And for 409 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: this last part, Gonzalo actually reimbursed people out of pocket, 410 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: so it's a really important fight to them. They were 411 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: willing to kind of literally put their money where their 412 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: mouth was. So they filed a class action lawsuit in 413 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: the Federal District Court of Los Angeles in March of 414 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: They chose to file this in federal court instead of 415 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: state court because there was no state law being violated 416 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: that they could try to repeal. And before we go 417 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: into exactly what this lawsuit involved, and now we will 418 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: get back to the Mendez family and the lawsuit that 419 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: they filed in the federal district court. So, as we 420 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: had just discussed, there was no state law in California 421 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: at the time requiring segregation that was based on race. 422 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: It was related to Mexican Americans. So the lawsuits argument 423 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: was that in absence of a state law, segregation violated 424 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and California 425 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: state law. The A C. L U and the National 426 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: Lawyers Guild also filed amicust briefs. Yes, and if if 427 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: you remember our Loving Versus Virginia episode, there's are the 428 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: briefs that are from people not directly related to the 429 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: case who have sort of expert legal advice to include um. 430 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: The trial started on July and it lasted for two weeks. 431 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: It was to be decided by Judge Paul J. McCormick. 432 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: The school board was to be defended by Orange County 433 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: cow Until Joel e Ogul, but he wound up turning 434 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: it mostly over to the Deputy County Council George F. Holden. 435 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: The testimony for the plaintiffs included evidence of segregation in 436 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: several school districts, evidence of how the schools for Mexican 437 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: children were inferior, and testimony for Mexican American children about 438 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: how the segregation had affected them. Parents and education experts 439 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: also testified. Dr Ralph Deal's of u c l a's 440 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: Anthropology Department was an expert witness. He argued that segregation 441 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: set up white children as superior and Mexican children as inferior, 442 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,239 Speaker 1: and drew parallels to what was going on in Nazi Germany. 443 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: The school boards defense was um bizarrely offensive to today's year, 444 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: so kind of be ready for that. James L. Kent, 445 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: the superintendent of the Garden Grove School District, said Mexicans 446 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: were inferior and had poor hygiene, in a lower ability 447 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: level and outlook than white children. He also said Mexican 448 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: families had loose morals, so he kind of was just 449 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: making up some garbage because I don't know, fear change 450 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: didn't like them whatever. As we talked about earlier, he 451 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: kind of conflated problems associated with poverty with problems that 452 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: were innate to an ethnicity, correct, which I don't. Maybe 453 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: it's because I am a little idealistic sometimes I kind 454 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: of think the better option would have been to address 455 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: the problems associated with poverty rather than segregating the poor 456 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: children into their own school. You hippie. I know it's crazy. 457 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: You tend to be idealistic in that regard, and it's 458 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: important to remember that it was a different social climate, 459 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: but it's hard not to kind of be a little 460 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: judgmental of statements like that, blanket statements to say, those 461 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: people are terrible for the following reasons, we really need 462 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: to keep them separate. Well, and the judge he would 463 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: sort of call them on. He was like, so, if 464 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: a white child has problems with hygiene and is having 465 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: trouble keeping up, what do you do? And they're like, well, 466 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: we talked to the parents and we maybe hold them 467 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: back a year. He's like, so you don't just segregate 468 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: them into somewhere else. So Frank A. Henderson, who was 469 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: the superintendent of the Santa Anna School District, also acknowledged 470 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: that they were basically making school assignment decisions based on 471 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: people's surnames and their skin color, which is ridiculous. Yeah. Uh. 472 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: In terms of the legal aspects, the school boards trying 473 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: to build their defense around the idea that this was 474 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: not a matter for a federal court since it was 475 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: a county and not a state or federal matter. Yeah, 476 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: it was not a very strong defense, and a little 477 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: flay at that point, I think. Yeah. And so unsurprisingly, 478 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: Judge Paul McCormick of the U. S. District Court Southern 479 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: District of California, Central Division ruled that the segregation of 480 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: Mexican American students did violate the law. He also describes 481 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: segregation itself as inherently unequal, writing quote, A paramount requisite 482 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: in the American system of public education is social equality. 483 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: It must be open to all children by unified school association, 484 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: regardless of lineage. So then this takes a turn into 485 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: the yet more offensive. Because the school boards appealed to 486 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: the U. S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit 487 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: in San Francisco while the appeal was taking place. Since 488 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: they had been told that what they were doing was illegal, 489 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: they all kind of handled their own integration efforts efforts 490 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: separately by their own devices. In the case of the 491 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: Westminster District, grades one through four wound up going to Westminster, Maine, 492 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: and grades five through eight went to Hoover with the 493 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: Mexican American children and the Anglo children in the same school. 494 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: But that meant that grades five through eight were in 495 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: the inferior with the cow pastor and no playground and 496 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: no cafeteria, so nobody lives. It is not good. The 497 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: ace c LU, the National Lawyer's Guild, the Japanese American 498 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: Citizens League, the American Jewish Congress, then Double A CP, 499 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: and the Attorney General of California all filed amicust briefs 500 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: on behalf of Mendez in the appeal. And we're not 501 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: going to rehash the testimony because it was basically the 502 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: same testimony over again with the school boards again trying 503 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: to build this defense that this was just a county 504 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: thing and was not something that the federal court should 505 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: be messing with. The Ninth Circuit's decision which came out 506 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty seven, was unanimous. It upheld the lower 507 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: court's ruling on the basis that it violated California law, 508 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: not on past Supreme Court precedent. Since California had no 509 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: segregation law for Mexicans, earlier Supreme Court decisions didn't actually apply, 510 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: so it didn't apply the ruling more broadly to the 511 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: other races or ethnicities. They still kind of had a 512 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: battle of their own to deal with. So while this 513 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: did this, this ruling did achieve what people were hoping 514 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: it would achieve as far as ending the segregation of 515 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: Mexican American children. It was a narrow ruling. It was 516 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: based only on the fact that this didn't this wasn't 517 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: within California law, like it didn't expand that out to 518 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment um at 519 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: this point, doing possibly the only thing they had done 520 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: right so far, the school boards elected not to appeal 521 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court, and this may be one reason 522 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: why this case has become much less well known than 523 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: Brown versus the Topeka Board of Education. And after this 524 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: ruling had finalized, uh and apart from overturning segregation of 525 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: Mexican students in California. The Mendes versus Westminster case had 526 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: other effects later on. It really put a spotlight on 527 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: segregation in California. Governor Earl Warren, who later became chiefs 528 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, proposed to the state 529 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: legislature that California repeal all of its segregation laws in 530 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: ninety six. He signed this bill into law in ninety seven. 531 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: Went on to author the Supreme Court's opinion in Brown 532 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: versus Board and in Loving versus Virginia, which we talked 533 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: about in earlier episodes of this podcast. Along with many 534 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: many other civil rights legislations, the Warren Court was in 535 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: a lot of ways extremely progressive when it came to 536 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: rights and liberties. Yeah, they really had am I on 537 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: achieving equality, I think, And while I was not cited 538 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: as a direct precedent in Brown versus Board of Education, 539 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: the n double A. CP did use Mendez versus Westminster 540 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: as a test case when trying to see how they 541 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: might get Brown versus Board overturned. Earl Warren's ruling on 542 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board has a lot in common with McCormick's 543 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: ruling in the Mendez case. Yeah, it was clear that 544 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: he had read and digested that written opinion thoroughly. Uh 545 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: The double A CP. S Amicas Brief was also written 546 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: by third Good Marshall, who argued Brown versus Board before 547 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Many of the challenges to segregation before 548 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: this point had focused on the fact that facilities were separate, 549 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: but they were not equal. This was a case in 550 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: which the entire concept of separate but equal was thrown 551 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: out and it succeeded. This helped propel America towards actually 552 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: desegregating schools. Yeah, while there were people who were working 553 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: on integration before this point, there was still a lot 554 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: of focus on trying to make the facilities be actually equal, 555 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: and this really proved. It was sort of a proof 556 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: of concept of hey, we can actually get these laws 557 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: completely returned instead of just focusing on getting the facilities 558 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: to be on the same level as one another. Gonzalo 559 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: Mendez died in nineteen sixty four, and he was fifty 560 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: one at the time. Felicitas Mendez died in There are 561 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: actually two California schools named after them. Commemorative stamp came 562 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: out in two thousand seven for the seventieth anniversary of 563 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: the ruling, and Celia became an activist. She was awarded 564 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: the Presidential Medal of Freedom in eleven at the age 565 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: of seventy four. Yeah, she went on to do it. 566 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: Just a lot of lecturing on the issues relating to 567 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: Mexican American people in the United States and segregation, a 568 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: lot of education, education of children on this case in particular, 569 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: because it turns out that this even people who are 570 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: living in that part of the country don't necessarily know 571 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: that this ever existed because so much of the focus 572 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 1: about the civil rights movement is on African American children 573 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: rather than children of other races who were also put 574 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: into segregated schools. Yeah, and the school integration thing is 575 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: largely focused, as we've said on brown v Board. Yeah, 576 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: so this does kind of fall by the wayside. Yeah, 577 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: it has a weird side note. I watched a lot 578 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: of videos for this. They're they're just there are a 579 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: lot of videos that have been recorded there about the case. 580 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: A lot of them had this weird undertone that really 581 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: bothered me. That was, like, well, everybody thought that my 582 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: Sekan children couldn't speak English, but the Mendez children could 583 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: totally speak English and I would like so, so that 584 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: would have been okay if they didn't. It's very strange. Yeah, 585 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 1: I mean we talked about this a little bit yesterday 586 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: when you were commenting on this, and like I said, 587 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: I think the idea is that they were trying to 588 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: build a case of how ridiculous it looked to try 589 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: to keep these kids out of any school. But it 590 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: ends up maybe look like they were the exception in 591 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: the Mexican American community and the others still should maybe 592 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: be segregated. It it set up a weird, very odd tone. 593 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: And while the Mendez family was definitely more affluent than 594 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: a lot of other Mexican American families in the area, 595 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: but that that doesn't mean that all the prejudices about 596 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: all of the other Mexican American people were correct, because 597 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: that is not true. So, yes, I am really glad 598 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: that I got to learn about this case. It was 599 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: not one that I was familiar with before. Now, he said, 600 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: do you also have some listener mail or what I do? 601 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: This is from Sean. It's a little bit of a 602 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: longer piece of mail, and Sean says, I'm a long 603 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: time family of the podcast, and I particularly love when 604 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: podcast subjects pop up elsewhere in my life. I had 605 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: just started reading at Home by Bill Bryson, and he 606 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: starts talking about the Crystal Palace, which I just heard 607 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: about from you. Before that, I had just finished up 608 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: a book called Outlaw Marriages by Roger Strike Matter, sorry 609 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: if I said that wrong, which included a chapter on 610 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: Jane Adams and Mary rost Smith. And the next day 611 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: saw that the next podcast up was Jane Adams. I 612 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: was very excited that I knew a little about the 613 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: ladies relationship from my reading and looked forward to hearing 614 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: you talk about it. After listening to part one, where 615 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: you talked a bit about it and you then use 616 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: the terms Boston marriage and companion, I was concerned that 617 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: that would be all you said about it. Now, listening 618 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: to your second part, I understand why you spoke of 619 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: their relationship the way you did, but I'm going to 620 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: respectfully disagree with you. I would like to say I 621 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: love it when people respectfully disagree with us, because sometimes 622 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: we just get screened at and then that breaks my 623 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: heart a little bit. But but I am happy to 624 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: be respectfully disagreed with time. So Sean goes on to say, 625 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: I am not an Adams or Smith expert, and full disclosure, 626 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: I'm a gay man from Chicago, so my bias will 627 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: be a little skewed. I fully understand why you, as 628 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: editors of a source of historical fact, would not want 629 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: to identify someone as definitely of a certain sexual orientation 630 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: without written documentation, But I also feel that the context 631 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: of the time is the main reason for the minimal 632 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: account of written documentation of their relationship. But that documentation 633 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: does exist. If you can get a copy of Outlaw Marriages, 634 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: I suggest you check it out. The chapter on Smith 635 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: and Adams is brief but stripe matter site includes many 636 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: sided sources that I think disagree with your assertion that 637 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: there is no documentation the women always slept in the 638 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: same bed, even sending word ahead to the hotels. Adams 639 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: servants knew to bring concerns about their employer's health to Smith. 640 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: Adam's correspondence to Smith included promises to be hers till death, 641 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: and during a time when they were apart, saying there 642 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: is reason in the habit of married folks sleeping together. 643 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: Smith not only gave money to Hull House, but provided 644 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: Adams with a personal allowance throughout the four decades of 645 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: their relationship. To say that you can only identify people 646 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: as LGBT if they themselves implicitly said that does a 647 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: disservice to the gay community as we continue to fight, 648 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 1: even in the twenty first century for our equal treatment 649 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: in the world and in history. By eliminating many historical 650 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: figures who would clearly identify as homosexual or transgender if 651 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: they live today, when evidence suggests, as it does in 652 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: the case of Adams and Smith, I think we need 653 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: to acknowledge it boldly, even if also mentioning some uncertainty. 654 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: I appreciated your podcasts on Loving Versus Virginia and feel 655 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,919 Speaker 1: that this podcast is a supporter of equal rights where 656 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: the LGBT community. My question to you is, does your 657 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: as search and apply only to gaze if you don't 658 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: have any historical documentation for where a figure in history 659 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: implicitly calls himself for herself heterosexual, will you not say 660 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: that there was a debate about that. Unfortunately, homosexual relationships 661 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: have always been viewed as not real, including some including 662 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: to the present day, by some in this country and 663 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: around the world, and I feel your discussion of Adams 664 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: and Smith perpetuates that double standard. I still love the 665 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: podcast and I think you do a fabulous job, but 666 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: I want to express my concern over this because I 667 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: normally don't like being so asserted with my opinion, and 668 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: as a blatant attempt to get this email read by you, 669 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: I've included cute pictures of my two kitties, my girl 670 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: Stella and my boy my boy boris with a normal 671 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: pick and one with his laser eyes engage. Thank you 672 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: for taking the time to read my email, and I 673 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: look forward to many years of podcasts in the future. Sincerely, Sean. 674 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: Thank you Sean for writing such a good email, such 675 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: a good email. First of all, it was not at 676 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: out at all, at all, at all our intent to 677 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: belittle their relationship or to make it sound as though 678 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: we didn't think their relationship was a real thing, because 679 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: clearly it was a loving and committed and supportive relationship. 680 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: And I don't it was like in my notes, but 681 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: I don't remember if we said it, um that there 682 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: were people who after Mary died, they were like, I 683 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: don't know how Jane is going to live without her? 684 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: Um that said, I my personal feeling, and this is 685 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: actually a change in my personal feeling over the last 686 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: ten or fifteen years, is that it actually does a 687 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: disservice to try to after someone's death identify them as 688 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: a particular orientation, because it kind of it's reductive and 689 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: kind of presumptuous, and I think it makes it harder 690 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: for people to understand the grand spectrum of of like 691 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: sexual orientations and types of human relationships and things like that. 692 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: Like I am really reluctant to kind of just check 693 00:40:53,800 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: the lesbian box next to someone unless someone themselves uh 694 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: expressed that identity to people. Yeah. Uh, and it's something 695 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: I think you and I both take very seriously. Uh. 696 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: You know, I certainly will say I am I align 697 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: myself as an ally um. And as far as whether 698 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: it applies to heterosexuals, I mean, my thing is like 699 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 1: I don't think unless you're with that person, it should 700 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: matter one way or the other, do you know what 701 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: I mean? Like I always joke with people, uh, on 702 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: the odd events where it's come up about like oh wait, 703 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: are you straight? Or I just tell them I'm Brian 704 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: sexual because that's my husband's name. Because it's it's not 705 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: your it's not you're saying to know anyway, it doesn't 706 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: really matter. And it's not unless you're potentially interested in 707 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: that person. I don't see why it should play into 708 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: the conversation at all. Right, well, yeah, so, I mean 709 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: it is something we're thoughtful about and take seriously. And 710 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed how well thought out his letter was 711 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: and what he had to say. And I agree it's 712 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: problematic that that LGBT relationships have gotten short shrift, certainly historically. Right. Well, 713 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: and the reason that it's that trick of not wanting 714 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: to assign something to someone without their permission, right, And 715 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: I felt a lot more I had. I had a 716 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: lot fewer qualms about doing that. Uh, you know, between 717 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: ten and fifteen years ago, when there were so many 718 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: fewer out LGBT people in the public eye, like when 719 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: there were so many fewer role models to look at 720 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: and people to draw, and I had a less less 721 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: of a concern about sort of retroactively saying that because 722 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: this person had a relationship with this person, that means 723 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: that person was a lesbian, Like nowadays, I feel like 724 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 1: that's that's more more reductive than, uh than supportive. Yeah, 725 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: And as you said, there's you know, there's a lot 726 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: of nuance that I think wasn't that part of the 727 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: public awareness or consciousness. Well, and I said in my 728 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: response to Sean that it would be very easy if 729 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: I were to somehow becomes so notable that history books 730 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: wrote about me. I don't know how that would happen, 731 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: but if it did, uh that you know, it would 732 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: be very easy for historian to look at my life 733 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: and look at the fact that I was raised in 734 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: the Methodist Church and that I am in a long 735 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: term relationship with a man, and to draw conclusions about me, 736 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: and that those conclusions would really they would assume a lot. 737 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: They would assume specific things based on a few public 738 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: elements without really having a sense of the entire rest 739 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: of life. So it will probably be an ongoing discussion, 740 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: one of great interests, and my my feeling on that 741 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,439 Speaker 1: may evolve. Again, So thank you so much again Sean 742 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: for writing this letter, and really thank you everyone for 743 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: writing his letters. An express respectful disagreement, um, because I 744 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: do I get really upset when when people are are 745 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 1: really upset, and we did not intend to be offensive. 746 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: So I do apologize if I seemed just a little anyone. 747 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: That was absolutely not my intent, and it was absolutely 748 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: not my intent to perpetuate any kind of double standard. 749 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: But I have not read outlaw marriages. I don't either. 750 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,399 Speaker 1: I had a friend recommended to me a while back 751 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: and I haven't gotten to it. And I will say, 752 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: even without the kiddies, we would have written read the letter. 753 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,919 Speaker 1: But the kiddies are really cute. We do. We read 754 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: every email that we got. We get, but we are 755 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: not able to answer them all. Currently, we try. I 756 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: have an alarming number of unanswered emails and the unanswered 757 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: email holder. So thank you again, Sean, Thank you everyone. Uh. 758 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us, you can. 759 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 1: We're at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also 760 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash History class Stuff, 761 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at missed in History. Our tumbler is 762 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: missed in History dot tumbler dot com. And we are 763 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 1: pinning up a storm. It's more like a drizzle right 764 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: now on pinteresting. We are penning though we just came 765 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: off a holiday weekend. I know we're catching back up. 766 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: We're totally catching back up. If you would like to 767 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: learn more about some of the subjects that we discussed today, 768 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: you can come to our website. Put the word civil 769 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: rights in the search bar. And you will find how 770 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights movement where you can do all that 771 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: and a whole lot more at our website, which is 772 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com for more on this and 773 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Because it how stuff Works dot com. 774 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: Netflix streams TV shows and movies directly to your home, 775 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: saving you time, money, and hassle. As a Netflix member, 776 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: you can instantly watch TV episodes and movies streaming directly 777 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: to your PC, Mac, or right to your TV with 778 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 1: your Xbox three, sixty P S three or Nintendo we console, 779 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,359 Speaker 1: plus Apple devices, Kindle and Nook. 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