WEBVTT - From Biotech to Asset Management with Sunaina Sinha 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:12.200 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Masters in 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:16.120 Business with Barry Ritholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:21.240 This week on the podcast, yet another extra special guest, 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.520 Is There any Other Kind? Sanana Sinha is the global 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.920 head of Private Capital Advisory Group for Raymond James. The 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.479 Raymond James platform manages one point six trillion dollars in 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:36.479 total assets and advises on a whole lot more. Sanana 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.560 had stood up her own private capital group, Siebel Capital, 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.760 which was acquired by Raymond James, and she's been there 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.400 for the past three and a half years. She works 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.040 as an advisor for a number of LPs and gps 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.800 and pretty much everybody in between. If you're at all 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.360 interested in the growth in private equity, in private capital 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:03.200 and how this sector of the investment world is changing 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.760 and where it might go, I think you'll find this 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.679 to be a fascinating conversation. Sanana has a unique perch 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.560 in the world of not only venture and an angel investing, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.319 but most especially private equity and private capital. I found 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.199 this conversation to be fascinating, and I think you will also. 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.920 With no further ado, my conversation with Raymond James Sanana Sinha. 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.040 Sanana Sinha, Welcome to Bloomberg. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:31.640 Thank you very much for having me very well. 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.760 Thank you so much for coming. So I was delving 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:39.520 through your background, and I had a first ask BS 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.800 in Management science and a master's in engineering and in 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.560 chemical engineering from Stanford where you were a Mayfield Fellow, 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:49.720 and then an NBA from Harvard. What was the original 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:50.320 career plan. 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.080 Well, the original career plan very much was to go 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.160 into the biotech industry, which is what I did after 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.520 I graduated from Stanford. Hence the masters and chemical engineering, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.120 which was an unusual masterress to get after doing the 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.320 undergraduate in industrial engineering which was then relabeled as Management 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.880 Sciences and Engineering at Stanford, but it allowed me to 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.880 go into the healthcare vertical. Straight out of Stanford, I 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.799 worked for two small and medium sized businesses owned by 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.800 the same investor group and cut my teeth on those 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.160 and then realized as a result of that experience, firsually 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.480 was phenomenal experience. I was working directly with the CEO 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.440 and president of both companies, but I realized that the 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.480 biotech vertical was not my playing field for the long term. 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.280 Hence the NBA at Harvard to find another career path, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:39.960 and that led me into asset management. 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.720 So the really interesting thing I for reasons between Stanford 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.320 and the fact that you're here via San Francisco. I 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.240 just assumed you were living out there, but you're not. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.320 You're London based. Tell me how did you end up 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.440 picking Stanford? How did you end up in California? 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.520 You know, I grew up all over the world. They 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.920 call people like me third culture kids. They were born 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.560 in one place. So born in India, grew up in 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.040 many other places and then land up in another place altogether. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.720 Well, when you say many other places, what I often 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:16.120 hear is, you know, India to London, to Boston, New York, California. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.480 You seem to have traveled a little where else. Tell 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:20.320 me where you grew up. 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.840 So, my dad was a diplomat for the World Bank. 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:27.079 I grew up in Nigeria, in Legos, in Harari, Zimbabwe, 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.720 and then in Hanoi, Vietnam. I applied to universities from 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:35.000 colleges in the US and also in the UK. From Hanoi, 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.480 there were no places to take the SAT in Vietnam 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.520 back then, so we flew to Bangkok. My dad flew 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.240 me to BANKOK to take my SAT ones, and then 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:44.760 we flew back a few weeks later to take the 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.280 SAT twos, and I flew back again to do interviews, 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.160 and I was blessed enough to get into a number 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.960 of great US IVY leagues, but ended up choosing Stanford 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.440 because even then Berry I knew I was an entrepreneur 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.480 at heart. I wanted to build businesses, scale businesses, and 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.760 help other people scale their businesses. And Stanford had that 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.080 rag magic between entrepreneurship and technology and the nexus of 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:11.440 starting to grow things, which is what I wanted to 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:11.960 learn most. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:17.320 We always pay attention to regions where there is a 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:23.400 pool of capital, a world class educational institution, and a 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.040 private sector that can combine all three. There's no doubt 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.320 Silicon Valley and Stanford is one of the leading places. 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.719 So if that's what you wanted to do, you certainly picked. Well, 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.360 how did you end up back in London as where 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:38.120 you wanted to live? 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.839 Yes, So I had the most incredible experience at Stanford. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.200 Ended up working in the Bay Area straight after that, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.839 still very close ties to Stanford, was still teaching a 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.720 class there over even after graduation and working with a 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.880 bunch of professors out there at the time. When it 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.120 came to picking where I wanted to do my MBA again, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.800 I had the choice between the Stanford of the East 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.479 as I call Harvard Business School, but also to go 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.400 back to Stanford, and I knew that if I didn't leave, 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.279 then I may never leave the Barrier. It's such a 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.200 special place and such a special bastion, an ecosystem of 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.679 entrepreneurship and technology and growth and ideas. Made the decision 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.039 to leave just to try something new at that point, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:20.960 went to Harvard for my MBA, and then had made 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.839 the choice at that point to switch out of biotech 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.480 and interviewed with a whole bunch of firms and ended 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.880 up getting into the hedge fund world, doing capital raising 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.880 for two large hedge funds, and one of them, Brevan Howard, 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.880 would was headquartered in London. So moved over to London 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.320 back in two thousand and nine, and the rest is history. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.479 Have been a resident of London. My family would argue 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.320 with you Berry and argue with anybody who asked them 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:47.320 that I live on a plane, because I managed a 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.840 global business over seven offices, six of which happened to 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.240 be in the US. So I'm Stateside a lot and 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.040 also traveled the rest of Europe, but home very much 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:56.000 is London to so. 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:57.640 I want to rewind a little bit. I don't want 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.160 to skip that middle experience. So you were at a 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.200 couple of hedge funds. You were Bridgewater, which is headquartered 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.679 in Greenwich, Connecticut, and you were at Brevin Howard, which 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.800 was which is still headquartered in London. In either of 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.839 those cases, you weren't working as an investor, right you 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:20.719 were a research and analyst capital raiser. How did those 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:25.360 experiences at Bridgewater and Brevien Howard affect how you look 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.360 at the world of investing? Clearly two superstar funds that 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.279 have put together a really impressive long term track record. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.840 Absolutely when it comes to any asset management business, very 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.720 two things important. Make smart investment decisions and have investors 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.000 to back you to do them right. And so I 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.360 knew I had to master in one of those those streams, 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.480 and the stream I picked was I do the capital 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.159 raising too. That enables the asset management industry engine to turn. 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.719 And both Bridgewater and Brevin Howard were incredible training grounds 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.760 to teach you just how to do that, but secondly, 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.039 how to cover investors systematically, and how to think about 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.039 the world in a holistic way and what levers drive 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.719 what others. Both for macro hedge funds as you know, 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.360 and understanding how macro markets work, how they interplay with 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.080 each other is incredibly important. I use that day to 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.360 day when I speak to my private equity clients today. 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.520 I use it all the time when it comes to 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.200 understanding how markets are going to affect different types of investors. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.560 How does the oil price impact my sovereign wealth fund investors, 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.840 How does what's happening with rates impact endowments and pension plans. 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.160 All of it is incredibly interlinked. And it's that interlinkage 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:35.920 that macro thinking really teaches. 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:39.920 You, huh, really intriguing. So it's kind of interesting that 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.000 you're in private equity. You spend time in the world 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.600 of hedge funds, but you also made a number of 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.840 venture investments going back to the early twenty tens. Tell 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.360 us a little bit about how you sort of got 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:59.480 involved in seed and angel investing, very early stage venture investing. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.480 You know, we all have to decide what our gifts 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.400 are to offer in the world. What of the gifts 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.360 I have to offer is how do you help businesses growth, 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.680 hack and get to the next level of scale. I 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.800 did that with two businesses early on in the early 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.360 twenty tens, as you say, I bought a business called 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.080 Barkres fitness boutique in the UK doing something new for 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.120 women by women. Grew that over a course of six 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.840 or seven years, very successful business, and sold that to 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.440 a private equity back Strategic. Did that again with a 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.440 business called Mindful Chef, a healthy recipe box business that 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:38.120 grew like gangbusters, especially over the COVID years, and sold 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.160 that to n Eslay as well. And now I'm chairperson 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.080 of the board of a publicly listed company called SFC Energy. 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.480 They do clean energy fuel cells and being able to 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.080 steer entrepreneurs and enable them to realize their vision and 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.360 think tactically as well as strategically as to how to 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.600 get there to help them do that, That's very much 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.760 something that helps me come alive every single day. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:02.440 So let's expand on that. Most people, I would imagine 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.360 think of angel investing very different than private equity investing. 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.400 One is you're betting on a team, You're betting on 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.240 a founder and some innovative new idea where there may 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.160 not even be a market for that sort of thing. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:19.240 Yet as opposed to taking existing company and management team 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.720 and product and saying here's how to level up, here's 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.000 how to make this more productive, efficient and really reach 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.240 your potential. What's the overlap or what skills you bring 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:31.200 from one to the other. 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.800 Well, I think the most important skill I bring is 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.800 the fact that I've started my own business, grown it 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.839 from scratch, and sold it to a fortune three hundred. 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.079 So I've seen all legs of this journey. 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.000 So not just an investor, but an operator. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.040 An operator, and a grower of her own business. So 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.240 that's the first thing. The second thing is you are 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.600 absolutely right buried. The muscle it takes to grow from 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.880 zero to ten a revenue or zero to ten of 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.080 ibadah is very different from the journey that takes ten 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.240 from ten to one hundred and one hundred to a billion. 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.000 These are different muscles, and these are different levers in 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.120 the business but also levers in mindset. I've done zero 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.200 to ten quite a few times. So in my angel 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.760 investing businesses, it was very much that hey, how do 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.040 we get from zero to ten of ibadah? That takes 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:24.200 a certain amount of nimbleness, hunger, agility, scrappiness, and I 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.679 love that. Having done that myself, I know what that 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.040 feels like. I can relate to the entrepreneurs. I can 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.720 help them duck and weave through whatever's coming at them. 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:33.760 I'm sensing the word pivot coming. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.040 I'm not going to use it because you used it already, 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.160 but you've got to be able to figure out what 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.400 I call the incomings. If life is throwing a lot 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.120 at you, the market throws a lot at you, and 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:44.920 what are you going to ignore and deflect? And what 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.000 are you going to say? Okay, that's the signal from 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.320 this noise. That's where I double click. That takes a 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.559 pattern recognition that I have. Now that said, over the 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.200 last few years, once I've sold my business to Raymond James, 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.839 I'm doing that second leg of the journey. How do 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:04.000 you something that's established, growing, proven, and really scale it. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.000 And that's the same thing I'm doing with the public 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.400 board seat at SFC, helping that management team and that 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.920 board take an existing business of his business is doing, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:13.960 you know, close to one hundred and fifteen million dollars 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.840 of revenue, you know, very profitable, growing organically thirty percent 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:19.960 year and year. How do you take that and scale 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:21.240 that to the next level? How do you make that 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.600 a billion dollar business? So now I'm trying my hand 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:26.199 at that second leg of the journey, but that first 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.880 leg of zero to ten that I've done a few 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.840 times over, and I think I've got real value to 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:32.000 add to entrepreneurs there. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.280 So let me roll even further back. You launch Seable 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.840 Capital in twenty eleven. What made you decide I'm going 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.560 to throw out a whole new company that's focused on 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:46.720 was it venture or private equity? 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.240 At the beginning, it was focused both on private equity 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.360 and hedge funds, But within a year and a half 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.720 I retired all our hedge fund business because I could 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.800 see the capital inflows going into the private markets opportunity. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:11:59.679 That was the right call to make. As you think 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.720 about the last decade, the influence into private equity have 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.240 been phenomenal, and we've been a great beneficiary of that, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.960 of that flaw and that movement. But in the early days, 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.200 what enabled me to start, or what gave me the 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.640 conviction to start, was really the belief that build it 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.920 and they will come, and if they don't come, at 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.280 least you're enjoying the journey for yourself. I knew I 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.280 loved capital raising. I knew I could do that effectively, 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.360 and I could do that for a handful of clients. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.320 And my goal very much was, let me give this 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:30.880 a shot, and if it doesn't work, I'll go out 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.400 and get the job again. I was in my early thirties. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.360 I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have kids, I 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:37.880 had very few liabilities. It was a risk, it was 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:39.719 a calculated one, and I'm very glad I took it 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.240 because it worked out beautifully. But it's not for the 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.080 feint of heart, that's for sure. Being an entrepreneur isn't anyway. 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.280 But being an entrepreneur in an industry like financial services, 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.400 where there's these old and very incumbent eight hundred pound 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.280 gorillas are all around you is certainly. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.200 Not, to say the very least. You went to Stanford. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.320 You were an adjunct professor, visiting guest professor. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.320 I was a guest lecturer with engineering. 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.960 Yes, but you're also on the advisory board for the 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.280 Stanford Institute of Economic Policy and Research. Tell us a 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.800 little bit about what you do there and how that 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.560 ties into your day job. 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.439 As you know, I love macro and I love thinking 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:24.000 about how policy and macro movements around markets around the 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.240 world really impact what's happening in the ground reality for 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.040 businesses that are run all over the world. The SEEPER, 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.920 as it's called, the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy and Research, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:39.680 is an incredible congregation of leading economists, Nobel laureates, policy 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.840 advisors from all walks of life across Stanford around the 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.600 world who joined the Institute to look at the big 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.920 problems facing the world today and think about how do 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:51.880 you solve them, how do you come at them. It 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.559 could be from looking at how social security reform, or 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.880 look at homelessness in California, or thinking about the age 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.720 issue in Japan. They could look at any number of 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.720 issues globally and parse it using the world's leading experts 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.480 and actually research how to come out at the other 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.800 side of it. Some of the most powerful research that 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.360 I've encountered at sipor being on that board, I'll give 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.920 you one that really astounded me. One of the researchers there, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.320 Nick Bloom, has done some of the most definitive research 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.520 on flexible working and how it impacts productivity, retention, and 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.400 how it's very much here to stay or should be 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.080 very much flies in the face of how some Wall 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:36.239 Street banks think about the return to work. Fascinating empirical 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.120 evidence there that he's collected. Another piece of research there 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.600 that I'll quickly mention is work on labor force participation 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.000 by women dipping in the summer months as kids come 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.360 out to school. Interesting on how. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.080 It's very seasonal, very seasonal. 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.480 What do we do about that that costs the US 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.880 United States GDP growth in the summer months. Fascinating the 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:02.560 interlinkages between women, our education policy, labor force productivity, and 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.560 again ultimately the growth of the economy. 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.000 So early in the twenty tens, you were doing some 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.000 angel investing. Tell us what you were looking for, either 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.720 in sectors or technologies. What attracted you to the angel space. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.480 What attracted me to that angel space was that I 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.520 was building my business and had skills in learnings I 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.760 wanted to share. But more importantly, when I looked for 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.640 businesses and entrepreneurs to back, it came down to two 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.080 very important criteria. The first is people, people people. I 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.400 learned that during my Mayfield Fellows Program journey at Stanford 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.000 where that was drilled into us. It starts with the people. 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.440 It ends with the people. And secondly, the companies and 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.120 the products they were building had to do good and 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.080 do well right that they had to have a positive 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.160 impact on the community that they operated in. So if 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.800 you think about the recipe food business that was all 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.920 about healthy eating, the fitness business was all about an 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.680 exercise program that's efficiently designed for women's bodies. You think 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.880 about the clean energy business that I am now a 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.640 chair on the board of that is all about clean 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.320 energy fuel sell alternatives to diesel generators and to polluting 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.000 generator types. So that's kind of the thematic that I 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.040 lean into the most really interesting. 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.040 So you very easily could have either set this up 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.880 as a VC fund or affiliated yourself with a venture group. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.680 What are the advantages to being an individual making single 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.840 decision investments into a startup? 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.880 I think the biggest advantage is that there's full alignment 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:41.360 because you're not operating with OPM other people's money. It 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.080 is your money, it's your skin in the game. The 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.600 alignment of interest is one thing that you learn in 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.880 private equity and all private markets investing that it's all 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.440 about alignment of interest. You can't exit these things unless 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.160 you grow value and you're in sync with the founders 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.560 and with the management teams because they're private businesses. So 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.160 you've got to figure out if you have that match 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.760 an alignment of both economic interest but also vision and 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.040 execution forte into the next three to five year journey. 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.320 That's the minimum amount of amount of time you'll be 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.720 together for. So that's why I think doing it as 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:20.160 an individual always gave me much more reward and also 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.640 quite frankly, economic success than doing it as a fund investor. 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.800 The other thing I'd add is that I found very 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.720 early on that professionally speaking, in terms of my day job, Berry, 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.280 what was I really good at. I was really good 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.919 at the capital markets function. I was really good at 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.399 the capital raising, liquidity organization started side of the business, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.640 and that's what Sibil Capital did. So I knew that 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.880 was going to be my day to day jam and 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.000 on the board of some of these companies I would 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:48.359 be able to go and add the value of how 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:49.119 to grow their business. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.320 So let's talk a little bit about your day job. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.400 You set up Seeble Capital in London, right, that's where 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.920 you found it. So before we get into the advisory 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.880 services you provide, I'm a big angli phile. I love London, 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.240 but there's such a difference between how they operate the 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.880 economy and especially the financial sector. Let's talk a little 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.000 bit about that. What's it like being Is it even 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.800 by coastal your ny you know you're nylon producer, Jilan. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:25.040 That's right. How different is the UK finance from the US? 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.000 And start the startup mentality? It seems that failure is 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.120 not a dirty word in the US. I don't get 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.479 that same vibe from Europe. Tell us a little bit 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:35.359 about the differences. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.200 You're absolutely right, operating in the UK and in Europe 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.520 at large and the US are fundamentally different. Having been 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.280 at Stanford worked in the Bay Area, I then went 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.000 to Harvard and worked in the Boston ecosystem. Came out 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.080 of New York. London was a bit of an adjustment, 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.479 I will tell you that because the startup ecosystem, especially 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.720 in the early twenty tens, there was nowhere near what 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.320 it was in San Francisco and the area. 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.399 And I mean that's a well established mature, if you 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.040 could say, mature startup cragian, but it is in the 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:09.480 same with Boston and New York one. 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.400 Hundred percent and so starting SABIL Capital in London ended 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.879 up being both a blessing and a curse. Why was 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.840 it blessing? It was a blessing because there was not 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.240 that many startups there period. There was not that many 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.040 new entrepreneurs starting financial services companies, and so it made 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.960 us very unique and able to differentiate ourselves in the 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.199 UK and European market very quickly. There were not that 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.119 many new entrants, and we use that to our advantage 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.800 and often still do. Although the market has definitely come 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.800 a long way, there are still divergences and how uneasey 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.159 of doing business. But it became very clear to me 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.040 Bery very quickly on we would have to diversify our 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.000 business to be US focused, and so we opened our 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.800 first office in New York few years after we started, 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:54.439 and we've been heavily focused on the US private equity 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.919 clients and US institutional investors. Have done so from day one, 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.600 knowing that actually the US market is much deeper and 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.439 much larger than UK or Europe could ever be. But 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.320 also the speed of doing business varies quite dramatically. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.680 So we've talked about the startup and angel world, let's 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.000 talk about the advisory work you do for private equity, 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.399 both in London and the US. I keep coming back 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.800 to there seems to be such a difference between how 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:26.680 companies operate there and how companies operate here. Every now 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.960 and then a European company comes to the US and succeeds, 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.000 but more often than not they have a hard time adjusting. 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.080 And I imagine the same as true vice versa when 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.479 a US company goes to the UK, at least outside 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.320 of finance. Finance seems to have found a foothold in 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.159 Europe from the US. Why the big cultural difference is 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.640 what is it about the psychology there and here that 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.280 creates such a different business and investing environment. 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.480 I think that it depends on what type of investing 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.439 you do. At its heart, private equity is about builo 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.119 sell high right. It's a long only strategy in the 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.240 private markets. So you got to buy a business and 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.840 you've got to know that you have to add value 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.920 and make it larger, better, stronger, and then sell it on. 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.600 So number of the clients we have are pure play 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.200 regional focused. So we have a German private Egrey client, 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.600 we have a Benelux private Aqua client, we have a 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:28.040 NORDICX private equity client. We've got UK clients and they 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.960 are experts in understanding what needs to happen to grow 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.399 their businesses and their companies that they're buying and selling 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.960 in their target market. They know the customer base, they 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.200 know how to impact the value drivers i e. On 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.359 the talent acquisition side, on the add on Bolton strategy side. 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:48.960 They know how to do that in their regional markets 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:49.720 incredibly well. 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:52.479 And I just want to interrupt and say, is it 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.840 that different from Germany to the Netherlands, to Sweden to 0:21:55.960 --> 0:22:00.440 the UK? Like completely Like in the United States, New 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.000 York is in Florida, Florida's in Texas. Texas is in California. 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.480 But you could hop from one place to another, and 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.440 it's not so different that you can adjust to the 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.600 regional We more or less speak kind of the same 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.480 language throughout the country. Maybe there are some dialects and differences, 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:23.960 but you know the general gestalt of California, New York, Texas. Yeah, 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.560 the politics may be different, but the business seems to 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.200 be the same. That's not true when you're a visit. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.120 It depends on the size of businesses you're buying. Right, 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.920 If you're buying businesses that are up to say ten 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:41.040 or twenty million dollars or euros of EBIDAB, then it 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.960 really matters that you're a regional champion, right that you 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.159 understand how a German business can scale in that end 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:51.960 of the market versus how a Nordic business will scale. 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.680 So they're having regional footholds and expertise really matters. But 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.240 when you're doing larger businesses and we have clients that 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.280 are pan regional, that are your P and PAN European 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.600 buyout players, or there are global buyout players that do 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.879 global deals US and Europe, but they do them for 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.280 larger businesses, and larger businesses often tend to have global 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.960 customers because by definition, you've got to make sure you've 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.640 diversified your revenue out So it depends on what scale 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.240 of business you're doing. But even if you are the 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.880 largest private equity funds out there, they will have local 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:25.760 offices if they know they need to operate in the 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.720 Italian market, they'll have presence in Milan, or they'll have 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.159 Italian experts in house that know how to operate and 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.560 buy businesses in Milan, or they'll have sector experts if 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.359 because a software business in Italy is going to be 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.240 very similar to software business in Texas. It might the 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.399 operating environment might change, but the characteristics of business and 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:47.800 how you drive value in that business will often be 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.400 very similar. So you've got to make sure you're either 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.280 a sector or a regional expert, and that often depends 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:54.760 on the size of business you buy. 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.320 So you've lived in Africa, You've lived in India, you've 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:02.280 lived in Vietnam, been to Thailand and all over Asia. 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.120 Have you thought of expanding to some of these other 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.159 continents or is it just US and Europe. 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.960 We do cover Asian and Middle Eastern investors in my 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.600 business prolifically and have done from almost the first day 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.080 of inception. You cannot ignore the rest of the world. 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.679 As you know, the sovereign wealth funds and the institutions 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:22.080 in the Middle East are big movers in the market today, 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:26.440 and that's today. I started covering Middle Eastern institutions when 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.320 I first opened the doors of the business now fourteen 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.159 years ago. And fourteen years ago people were like, I 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:34.320 don't know if I need to go over there. It's 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.840 a huge investment of time and air my airfare and 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:40.640 so forth. Well, now everyone's saying I wish I'd built 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.640 those relationships long ago, because relationships die hard in those 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:47.359 markets Asia and Middle East, and those relationships I've had 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:49.200 and my team has had for a long time. 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:52.479 Huh. So let's talk a little bit about valuation in 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:57.760 the public markets. Hard to say, fourth quarter twenty twenty four, 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:01.720 US markets aren't at the very least fully priced, if 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.840 not richly priced. When we look at the UK, when 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:08.760 we look at Europe much much less expensive, we see 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:11.600 a lot of companies trading at book value, not the 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:15.040 same growth level that we see in the US. Does 0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:19.320 that valuation difference in the public markets extend to private 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:20.160 markets as well? 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:24.120 So, firstly, let's comment on the public market side, that 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:28.240 is characterized very much. That valuation gap is characterized by 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:31.400 the depth of the markets. The US capital markets vibrant, 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:38.320 incredibly dynamic, incredible fragmentation of investors, deep rich market where 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:41.480 you can do business on the capital market size presseemously. 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:45.800 And I would add, plus all these giant mega tech 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:50.439 companies that certainly have rich valuations in skew, whether it's 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.280 a Nazaq one hundred or the S and P five hundred. Yes, 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:58.240 you know, there's a handful of them. Overseas, Taiwan Semiconductor, asmathroography, 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:01.320 you can name SAP, you can name like a handful, 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.320 but most of the big ones are here, which certainly 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:07.360 the valuation on the public side, what do you see 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:08.160 on the private side. 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.760 On the private side, we see a similar valuation gap 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:13.520 that and I'll just finish the public market side. The 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:15.600 UK and the European capital markets just don't have the 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:18.280 same depth, which is why you see the valuation, missed pricing. 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:20.640 So you think it's more than just the tech companies. 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:24.600 It's the structure, it's structural, there's not that many participants. 0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:28.520 It's also legal and regulatory. Right in the UK, there 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.639 was a move away from holding UK assets by the 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.200 UK pension plans that suck the liquidity out of the 0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:38.639 UK markets, hence the valuation gap. So there's also regulatory 0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:42.040 angles that are at play there on the private markets, 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:45.239 though I've got to agree with you entirely, there is 0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:49.199 evaluation arbitrage even in the private markets that the European 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:53.240 buyout specialists are able to buy companies at better value 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:56.880 in Europe and scale them into global businesses and sell 0:26:56.920 --> 0:27:01.000 them at global valuations or US market valuation. It comes 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:04.200 down to selling time. So some of the biggest best 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:07.199 private equity household names that you know, whether it's a 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:10.280 Blackstone or an Apax or a Clayton, Dubley and Rice 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:14.439 have headquarters both sides of the pond because there's so 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.280 much value to be harvested by buying smartly in Europe 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:21.840 and an advantage quite honestly evaluation arbitrage that you can 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:23.520 play all day long, and many of them do so 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:24.560 very successfully. 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.440 So you're advising a lot of players in the private 0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:32.320 equity market. Is it general partners gps the funds that 0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:36.280 are essentially running Are they LPs and investors or do 0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:37.920 you advise across the whole space. 0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:41.240 We sit in between the gps and their LPs when 0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:43.520 it comes to and we will raise everything from a 0:27:43.720 --> 0:27:45.639 small for us would be a two hundred and fifteen 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:48.680 million dollar fund and our largest client to raise twenty 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:52.160 seven billion in their flask fund, okay, and everybody in between. 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:54.960 In the last year alone, we raised north of four 0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:59.200 billion of new capital commitments for our clients and are 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:04.359 very prolific at ensuring that private equity general partners raise 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:06.720 the capital they need to go off and buy businesses 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.520 and build the ecosystems around each of their businesses. So 0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:13.639 we sit right in between general partners and limited partners. 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:16.760 Got a team of over sixty people or seven offices, 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:20.800 raising capital for our clients but also intermediating in the 0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:23.719 liquidity side of the equation in private markets. As you know, 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.320 in the public markets, the second resistance market is much 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:30.280 larger than the primarysurance market. In private markets today it's flipped. 0:28:31.160 --> 0:28:34.080 But that means explain what you mean by that, Why 0:28:34.160 --> 0:28:35.280 is that? How is that flipped? 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:39.360 Well, in private markets today there is a one point 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:45.880 six trillion dollars new capital raising engine that hums along annually. 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:49.360 That's how much capital is raised across private market funds 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:51.240 in a twelve month rolling cycle. 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:54.320 And to just put a little flesh on that, go 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:58.480 back to before you launched Sebral, private equity was a 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:02.760 trillion dollars now ten twelve trillion, and it's projected to 0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:06.719 go up to twenty something trillion. Absolutely, so this has 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:10.640 certainly been ramping up rapidly, and your timing was quite 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:12.440 for two to say you get twenty eleven. 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.360 Yes, very lucky to have launched then, but you're absolutely right. 0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:19.000 But the secondaries market in private markets is only one 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:21.840 hundred and forty hundred and fifty billion dollars in size, 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.400 but growing rapidly. That market, when we first did our 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:29.080 first secondaries transactions as a firm in twenty twelve, was 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.120 only twenty billion, a drop in the bucket. Today it's 0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:34.640 one hundred and fifty billion, still small compared to the 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:37.959 size of the primary private equity market. But these investors 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.240 want liquidity too, Berry, you could help something eight years, 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.480 nine years, ten years, you want out? Who do you 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:46.600 go to? You've got to call a market maker like 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:50.360 ourselves who can make an advice on that position in 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.280 the secondaries private equity market to get you liquidity. Can 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:54.400 I get you a one fun fact? 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:54.920 Sure? 0:29:55.320 --> 0:29:59.560 The average age of a private equity fund sixteen point 0:29:59.600 --> 0:29:59.960 two year. 0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:01.800 Wow, that's crazy. 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.840 It says ten on the tin. It's ten with two 0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:07.920 one year extensions, so up to twelve. But the average 0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:11.360 vehicle is around for average is around for sixteen point 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:15.240 two years. Hence the need for the secondary's market to 0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:18.120 provide liquidity for investors who want out. 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.000 So, just for the lay listener, I want to do 0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:24.560 a little definitional work here. So for when we talk 0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:27.520 about a ten year fund, you're putting money into a 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:30.120 private equity fund. Over the course of that decade, they're 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:35.200 making various investments. There's no guarantee in year eleven that 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:38.720 all of those investments have found an exit, so there'll 0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:42.040 be a series of extensions, and even after those extensions, 0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:46.560 all right, the fund is arguably inactive, but we're trying 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:50.040 to find an exit for this. A secondary market is 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:53.880 one way that can take place. It gets people who 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:57.600 are in that liquid and hopefully at a discount. For 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:00.400 the buyers who come in and say we'll take this 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:03.960 at X price, We'll give them liquidly, and then it's 0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:06.840 year one for us, not year twelve. So there are 0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:09.120 different timelines. Is that fair explained? 0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:11.800 It? Very, very beautifully. The only new ones I'd add 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:14.680 to that is that that liquidity can be asked for 0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:18.160 by both the limited partner so i e. The investor 0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:21.440 and the fund itself. And we get asked by pension plans, 0:31:21.560 --> 0:31:26.600 endowmas foundations, family offices saying hey, we've held this portfolio 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:28.680 now for eight years, nine years, it's getting along in 0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:32.640 the tooth. Or actually my predecessor made these investments. I'm 0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:35.480 the new CIO. Can you sell this stuff for me, 0:31:35.520 --> 0:31:38.520 I don't like it anymore, or I've actually realized the 0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:41.680 gains I thought I would realize much sooner than I expected. 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:44.840 Can you sell this on for me? All reasons to 0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:47.360 seek liquidity on the limited partner site, and we do 0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:49.360 that all day every day. Actually, I've done one hundred 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:51.760 and sixty three transactions in that space alone in the 0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:55.600 last decade. And we also organize a liquidity when the 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:59.680 general partner asks us. Sometimes a general partner will say, actually, 0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:02.479 can can you help organize liquidity for a company that 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:04.240 needs to be sold out of the fund because the 0:32:04.240 --> 0:32:06.680 fund is reaching its end of life. The fund needs 0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:09.920 to sell some companies, but I general partner want to 0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:12.160 hold on to it longer, so pull it out of 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:14.000 the fund and put it in its own fund. And 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:17.120 that is called the continuation vehicle space. And that's something 0:32:17.160 --> 0:32:18.400 we do all day every day. As well. 0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:22.280 We've been experiencing something here in the US that I 0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:25.400 find kind of fascinating, and I'm giving you a perch. 0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:28.000 I'm really curious as to what you see in the 0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:31.160 UK and Europe or the rest of the world. Over 0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:33.960 the past decade, there has been, for lack of a 0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:38.520 better word, a democratization of private equity and private debt. 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:42.880 You used to need twenty or ten million dollars to 0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:45.440 participate in this. I think you can get into a 0:32:45.520 --> 0:32:48.760 number of places for a quarter million, one hundred thousand 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:53.120 dollars less, very less. So this has you know, when 0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:55.560 I look around at Blackstone and Carlisle and so many 0:32:55.560 --> 0:33:00.040 of the big pe firms in the US, they have 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:04.480 set up parallel funds where you know, there's really practically 0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:08.920 no minimum. Is this trend something that's us focused? Are 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:11.360 you seeing this in the UK and Europe? Tell us 0:33:11.400 --> 0:33:14.760 a little bit about private equity for everybody. 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:19.600 Absolutely, the entrance of private wealth into private markets, but 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:25.120 private equity in particular has been the single biggest innovation 0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:30.400 and movement of capital from LP investors into private markets 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.360 in the last five years. It's been happening. It's started 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:35.920 off over the last decade, but it's really over the 0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:39.120 last three to five years we've seen an acceleration. And 0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:43.400 here's the most important fact that as ultra high networth 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:47.240 and high net worth individuals build out their portfolios, they're 0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.840 putting equities, they're putting bonds, and they're putting alternatives, and 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:56.120 alternatives being led by private markets. The average investor in 0:33:56.160 --> 0:33:59.640 private wealth is under allocated to private equity by three 0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:03.920 to five x three to five hundred percent. That is 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:07.000 a huge number. And so the growth of private wealth 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:11.319 as an investor in private markets has absolutely exploded over 0:34:11.320 --> 0:34:13.279 the last two years and will continue to do so 0:34:13.320 --> 0:34:16.400 in over the next decade or so. And it's a 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:20.680 global phenomena. Of course, the US led the way, and 0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:25.320 certainly the forty Act regulation of allowing semi liquid evergreen 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:29.040 products and individuals to invest on those was a huge 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:32.719 game change when it came to private wealth's interest in alternatives. 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:35.319 We're seeing the same thing in Europe. We're seeing the 0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:39.360 same thing in Asia that individuals who have a certain 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:43.200 net worth are saying, I want a bit of private 0:34:43.200 --> 0:34:45.279 equity in my portfolio, how do I go out to 0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:47.799 get it? And more and more sponsors are saying, well, 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:49.880 I'm going to create solutions for you to access my 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:53.480 funds and product and my alpha through accessible channels. 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:57.279 So in the US, when this really began to get 0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:01.320 popular in the twenty tens, one of the big drivers 0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:06.360 was zero interest rates, this ZIP policy where when bonds 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:08.440 are yielding you know, two two and a half percent 0:35:09.880 --> 0:35:13.719 that side of the portfolio really wasn't producing anything, and 0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:16.160 people started looking around, Hey, where can I get better 0:35:16.239 --> 0:35:20.800 yield private debt? Private equity stepped into that and really 0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:25.680 filled that gap, especially for institutional investors. So I look 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:28.000 around the world and we had, you know, rates that 0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:32.439 were zero for a decade. How significant was that as 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:34.480 a driver? And then what does it mean now that 0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:37.319 rates are you know, appreciably higher than they were in 0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:38.200 the twenty tens. 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:42.319 There's no doubt that rates being low helped investors seek 0:35:42.400 --> 0:35:46.160 yield and seek alpha in different markets, including in private markets. 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:49.040 But also it helped private equity do deals right, leverage, 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:52.640 biot requise leverage, and when rates were so low, they 0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:56.080 leverage when it was cheap and easily accessible, and they 0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:58.880 used it for that decade of boom that we had 0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:02.399 until rates started going up. Now that roads have gone up, 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.240 but they are coming back down, we can always discuss 0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:08.840 what neutral looks like. What we have is now investors 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:11.760 seeking where do I invest that I can still find 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:14.799 value in given how expensive the public markets are? Right 0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:18.400 you think about the forward pe of the public markets today, 0:36:18.600 --> 0:36:20.839 where do I still get relative value? Where I can 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:25.320 buy at sensible multiples and sell at higher ones private markets. 0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:29.880 So it's a diversification strategy. And secondly, it's an incredibly 0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:32.920 important way for investors to say that as I think 0:36:32.960 --> 0:36:37.719 about a balanced portfolio, I want to seek investments in 0:36:37.800 --> 0:36:40.560 folks who really know how to add value to businesses 0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:43.480 over a period of time, So they'll do that only 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:46.480 in general partners who have a track record, and that 0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:50.160 track record is often anywhere between fifteen to twenty two 0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:54.200 to twenty three percent net IRRs, and that track record 0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:56.200 really matters. So you have to be able to return 0:36:56.239 --> 0:37:00.560 money over the neutral rate, otherwise are not going to 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:03.440 be viable. Even the best private credit funds will return 0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:07.160 high single digits or low teens type of returns, which 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:10.759 is very much a good diversifier and an addition to 0:37:10.800 --> 0:37:11.920 private wealth portfolios. 0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.359 And one of the things I noticed whenever I see 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:17.040 a private debt or a private credit it used to 0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:20.520 be liboard. Now at SOFRA, it's not a fixed rate, 0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:25.440 it's a variable rate plus some markup beyond that. So 0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:29.960 kind of raises the question low interest rates first sent 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:34.720 people exploring this aspect of private markets and private credit 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:38.920 and debt. Do higher rates really have a negative impact, 0:37:39.040 --> 0:37:43.800 or you're still getting whatever the SOFA rate is plus 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:45.240 five six seven percent. 0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:48.279 Yes, for sure you're going to get a if you're 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:51.680 comparing to SOFA, you're definitely going to get a return 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:55.120 normalization which did happen when rates were in twenty two 0:37:55.160 --> 0:37:57.920 to twenty three, less deals got done because at higher 0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:01.640 rates private equity funds had a difficult time brawing. You know, 0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:04.839 the debt markets were shut, so deal value values came down. 0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:06.440 If you look at the M and A volumes that 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.279 at most of the major investment banks, including at raymag Jes, 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:11.719 volumes came down. Now they're on their way back up. 0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:13.759 But your point is a salient one. How does it 0:38:13.800 --> 0:38:16.719 impact returns? You have to be able to show if 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:18.719 you're doing private equity buyouts, you've got to be able 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:20.480 to show that you can do fifteen points over for 0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:21.000 so far. 0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:23.680 Right, fifteen that's a big number, ten. 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:26.160 To fifteen points. If you are a mid market private 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:29.839 equity house, you are returning twenty percent net IRRs. That's 0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:32.200 kind of what you have to show fund on fund 0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:35.480 and that's interesting. That's why you're added to a portfolio 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:38.439 if you're a private debt strategy. Obviously, not private debt 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:41.400 will be more like low teens type of numbers. Somewhere 0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:44.439 they're ten to thirteen percent net range. But even that 0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:47.880 is value add when you think about a debt strategy 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:50.560 that you know, because even in public market debts, you're 0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:53.239 not able to find that type of yield. So as 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:56.920 rates come down, as money gets pushed out of t bills, 0:38:56.960 --> 0:38:59.200 gets pushed out of money market accounts and starts to 0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:02.680 seek yields again, private markets become interesting to a lot 0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:03.120 of players. 0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:08.680 Huh, really interesting. You mentioned the transaction numbers slid down 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:11.719 and then came back up again. Does that impact the 0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:14.400 secondaries you've done? You guys have done over two hundred 0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:18.920 secondaries and fundraising transactions. That's a pretty big number for 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:21.880 a relatively short period of time. How have you seen 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:25.960 the volumes on secondaries affected by swinging interest rates? 0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:29.720 So there was a dip in the secondaries of markets 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:34.840 transacting volumes in twenty twenty three, in particular, as rates 0:39:34.840 --> 0:39:38.080 were high and investors didn't know what impact that had 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:41.799 on valuation. If you remember first half of twenty twenty three, 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:45.440 the world froze because you had fed raising interest rates 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:48.560 and all other central banks you had Ukraine and Russia. 0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:51.520 You had Silicon Valley Bank and then you had Credit Swiss, 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.560 so everybody was deer in headlines, going what on earth 0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:57.719 is going on? Volumes came down that year in secondaries 0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:00.440 market as well as an M and A. Now those 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:03.319 volumes have gone up this year. Twenty twenty four will 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:06.840 be another high water mark for the secondary's market in 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:10.640 terms of transacted volumes. And that's because as the private 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:14.000 markets grow, the need for liquidity and a liquidity solution 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:17.080 over the period of that ten to fifteen year old 0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:20.040 becomes all the more pertinent for both limited partners and 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:23.480 general partners. So now regardless of what the rates are doing, 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:26.279 you have investors saying, you know what, every year or 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.200 every two years, I'm going to sell in the secondaries 0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:32.440 market and move that cash into other more opportunistic situations, 0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:35.439 back into a program that will reield me a higher 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:37.319 return because I've made what I needed to make out 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:41.560 of this portfolio. That's become programmatic amongst many institutional investors. 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:46.279 So I love the word opportunistic. When in the public markets, 0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:50.719 when we get those dislocations and people use the word freeze. 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:53.759 In public markets, we use the word panic because they 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:58.239 have the liquidity to engage in bad behavior. It definitely 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:02.200 creates opportunities. When you see in the private markets people 0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:05.160 polling back and freezing, do you end up seeing the 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.120 same sort of Hey, this is a substantial discount. I 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:09.120 want to participate in this. 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:11.120 You're absolutely right, Berry. It all comes down to the 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:14.120 discount and other willing sellers sellers at the price. There's 0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:17.879 always a price. I'll give you one anecdote. One fund 0:41:17.920 --> 0:41:20.520 interest we sold traded at eight and a half cents 0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:22.759 on the dollar, eight and a half real There was 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:25.520 a seller who said, get me any price I want out. 0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:28.360 I don't want to hold this anymore. Okay, this was 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:31.040 I'm going back to twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, But there 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:33.400 was a buyer at eight and a half percent of 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:36.719 anav of net ascid value. Great, you have all the 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:38.600 cushion in the world, and you look like a genius 0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:40.400 when you do your markups the next quarter. 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:44.279 Even in the worst of the financial crisis, bad mortgages 0:41:44.400 --> 0:41:47.040 pools of bad mortgages, right, they were selling for thirty 0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:50.600 five forty cents seemed like a huge deal. Ninety two 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:52.719 and a half percent off ninety one and a half 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:54.520 percent off. That's unbelievable. 0:41:54.560 --> 0:41:57.520 That was in an Asian manager in twenty thirteen. But 0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:00.319 I will say the average discount these days, the best 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:02.920 private equity fund managers do not trade at discounts. They 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:06.320 close it close to their net asset values. They trade 0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:09.480 close to par. But the average discount when it comes 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:11.920 to the average buyout fund is somewhere in the four 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:15.200 to eight percent range for the average private equity buyout fund. 0:42:15.640 --> 0:42:17.640 If you hold venture, especially if it's got a lot 0:42:17.640 --> 0:42:20.600 of fintech in it, these days, that's going at thirty 0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:23.680 to fifty percent discount because it's really hard to value 0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:26.479 that stuff. As you know, venture and growth is often 0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:29.319 valued that it's last rounds valuation. Well, if your last 0:42:29.400 --> 0:42:31.640 round was back in the boomyrrors and all you've done 0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:33.600 is try to tread water and maybe raise some debt, 0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:37.120 you don't have a valid print. So we are seeing 0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:39.960 a lot more spread a bit asport is very wide 0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:42.239 in the venture and growth world right now when it 0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:45.719 comes to buyouts, especially mid market large cap buyout at 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:47.320 or close to par in the nineties. 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:51.839 Huh. Really interesting. So you mentioned deal flow has ticked up. 0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:55.719 I'm assuming that'll continue into next year. What are some 0:42:55.800 --> 0:42:58.719 of the challenges and headwinds that are out there that 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:02.200 could be something an investor in the space should be 0:43:02.239 --> 0:43:02.600 aware of. 0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:05.319 I think the one that's most salient, that we track 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:08.840 most closely bury is the fact that because the math 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:11.959 broke at the investor level in n twenty to early 0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:14.560 twenty three, we're still playing catch up on that. What 0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:17.759 does that even mean. It means that the exit activity 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:20.800 the M and A volumes, the ability to sell companies 0:43:20.800 --> 0:43:25.040 and return cash to institutional investors really slowed down from 0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:27.920 summer twenty two onwards, as we had inflation, as we 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:30.080 had Ukraine, as we had some of the macro. 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:33.680 Challenges, plus a pretty public market at the same time. 0:43:33.520 --> 0:43:36.760 And a very ugly public market. So at that point, 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:41.000 institutional investors stopped seeing very much cash back from their 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:44.040 private equity portfolios. They were still having to pay into 0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:46.560 those capital calls that were being made by their private 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:50.000 equity clients because the contribution still kept coming in saying 0:43:50.040 --> 0:43:51.319 I want to do a new deal, I want to 0:43:51.320 --> 0:43:53.760 do an add on. Here's some management fees and expenses 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:57.640 you need to fund. But the cash back froze. Now 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.480 we're starting to come out of that now, but that 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:02.640 math is still nowhere near where it needs to be. 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:03.000 I e. 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:06.000 The private equity industry needs to return a lot more 0:44:06.040 --> 0:44:09.360 cash back to its investors. The capital markets need to 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:11.759 open because some of the largest private equity funds you 0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:14.799 have out there need to list some of those businesses, 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.080 and we haven't seen the IPO window open the US 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.120 or Europe in the last year in a meaningful and 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:23.320 sustainable way. We need all of that math to write 0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:26.719 in itself before institutional investors kind of come back to 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:30.560 their normal levels of allocating to private equity. Where institutions 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:32.799 have pulled back, private wealth has stepped in. We had 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:36.560 that discussion, but the institutional investor has pulled back. The 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:40.319 average pension plan, the average endownment, the average foundation, the 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:43.760 average insurance company, if they used to do one hundred 0:44:43.840 --> 0:44:48.040 dollars per fund investment last time around, this go around, 0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:50.920 there are seventy five to eighty percent of that only, 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:53.520 So for them to come back to the one hundred dollars, 0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.680 we need the private equity industry to sell companies and 0:44:56.719 --> 0:45:00.520 return cash back to them. It's getting better twenty f better. 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:03.480 Amberinet volumes that twenty twenty three was, but is it 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:05.600 back to what it was in twenty one. No, sir, 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:06.920 we're not back there yet. You know. 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:08.759 It kind of reminds me of what happened in the 0:45:08.800 --> 0:45:12.400 automobile market during the pandemic. When you're not making a 0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:15.000 lot of new cars, it means a few years later 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:16.800 there are not a lot of used cars for sale. 0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:19.800 Sounds like it's the same situation where you have a 0:45:19.840 --> 0:45:23.560 twenty twenty two slow down twenty twenty five, where the 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:25.759 exits am I oversimplifying that. 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:29.719 I picked a really interesting and analogy, and I like 0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:32.399 it because that is what is happening. And now we're 0:45:32.440 --> 0:45:34.520 at the point where a lot of companies that were 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:37.320 bought in the twenty twenty one era need to be sold. 0:45:37.880 --> 0:45:40.560 And some of our clients have been prolific at returning 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:42.759 that capital back. In fact, I've done a great job 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:46.000 in twenty twenty four of exiting those businesses and returning 0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:48.719 cash back to investors. Others not so much. Others need 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:50.840 to pick up the speed on that. And as an industry, 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:52.719 if you look at the entirety of the industry, let 0:45:52.719 --> 0:45:57.319 me give you some numbers. The average returns that investors 0:45:57.360 --> 0:46:01.680 get cash back that they used to distributions as a 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:05.200 percentage of the total value held in private equities generally 0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:08.839 around twenty four percent. In twenty three, that number dip 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:12.839 to only eleven percent. So far in twenty four we're 0:46:12.920 --> 0:46:15.480 back to about fourteen percent, but we're not back to 0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:16.520 twenty four. 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:20.839 So when we're not talking about returns, we're talking about. 0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:23.720 Exit activity as a percentage of the net asset value. 0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:27.160 So fourteen percent exit as opposed to almost a quarter 0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:27.960 a big difference. 0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:31.760 Yes, historical average of twenty four percent. The institutional investor 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.200 does not like that math. They like to have their 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:37.040 cash back come back to normal levels because that's the 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:39.000 cash back that then recycle into new investment. 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:42.160 They see other opportunities. So I asked you the negative question, 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:45.560 what are the challenges? Let me flip it. What are 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:47.719 the tailwinds? What are some of the positive things you 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:50.800 see coming forward for the private markets. 0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:55.680 I think that as you see the increase in regulation 0:46:55.800 --> 0:47:00.000 around public market listings, more and more companies around the world, US, 0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:03.560 in Europe and beyond want to remain private because they 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.319 see the benefits of being under private equity ownership, the 0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:10.480 value add the access to resources, the ability to have 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:14.280 capital at hand, to grow faster is a very valuable playbook. 0:47:14.600 --> 0:47:17.600 So I expect that the private equity industry will continue 0:47:17.640 --> 0:47:21.360 to grow at the very rapid expansion rate that they've enjoyed. 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:24.680 The other point I'll say is that this is a 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:30.560 really interesting return driving environment for private equity. Valuations in 0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:34.400 the private markets remain very sensible, and there's a great 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:38.839 arbitrage between US and Europe. The Europe divergence, as they're 0:47:38.880 --> 0:47:41.439 calling it these days, is real. So when it comes 0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:46.399 to saying, hey, I'm going to globalize my company's revenue chain, 0:47:46.560 --> 0:47:49.760 how do you do that? That's an interesting playbook, especially 0:47:49.760 --> 0:47:52.840 in the political environment we're in, and private equity is 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:55.640 very well positioned to figure that out. The third thing 0:47:55.760 --> 0:47:58.520 we've already touched on, which is private wealth is a 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:01.360 game change for private markets. Is a game change in 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:03.960 terms of the capital inflows that's coming in, and we're 0:48:04.000 --> 0:48:07.080 still at the early innings of that. It would change 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:10.760 private equity for good, and I think it's very exciting 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:13.120 to see that gather pace and to be at the 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:16.279 forefront of that at Raymond James, which is one of 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:19.240 the largest wire platforms global private wealth platforms in the world. 0:48:19.320 --> 0:48:21.560 So let's talk a little bit about your time at 0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:25.839 Raymond James. First, you stand up your own firm see bowl, 0:48:26.440 --> 0:48:29.440 and now you're at a fortune five hundred bank and 0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:33.319 advisory firm. That's got to be a culture shock. Tell 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:35.480 us a little bit about what that transition was like. 0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:39.520 On paper, it is a culture shock, but during diligence, 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:43.960 Raymond James approached me within within offer to acquire the business, 0:48:44.120 --> 0:48:47.160 and we spend months getting to know each other to 0:48:47.320 --> 0:48:49.680 ensure that the culture fit would work. Because if that 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:52.799 didn't work, the key ASCID you were buying, which is 0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:55.920 talent and financial services, was going to walk. And so 0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:59.920 my boss, now who is the person who acquired Sabiel Jimbo, 0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:02.200 and I spent a lot of time getting to know 0:49:02.280 --> 0:49:05.160 each other and ensuring that him and I could work 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:08.680 together well and effectively, and that the cultural alignment and 0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:11.920 entrepreneurial DNA would stay intact when they acquired the firm. 0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:14.360 Now I've been part of Raymond James three and a 0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:17.600 half years. I can safely say that the honeymoon's over, 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:21.719 but also say that the culture fit has been a 0:49:21.760 --> 0:49:26.160 real hit. Raymond James has a very affable community oriented 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:30.560 a very low ego type of culture as in general, 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:32.400 and I've found the same thing in the capital markets 0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:36.000 business and it's been actually one of my upside surprises 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:38.280 of joining Raymond James on the culture side. You wouldn't 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:40.480 know it if you looked at the paper announcement that 0:49:40.560 --> 0:49:43.600 a Fortune three hundred was buying a small boutique and you. 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:47.839 Go from small boutique to a trillion dollar platform. How 0:49:47.840 --> 0:49:51.600 has that changed how you operate, not just globally, but 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:54.880 the sort of companies you advise, the sort of funds 0:49:54.880 --> 0:49:58.160 that you're working with. What has been the upside for 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:01.520 you being on this billion plus dollar platform. 0:50:02.000 --> 0:50:04.120 There'd be two things that point to The first is, 0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:07.400 almost overnight, the largest private equity funds in the world 0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:13.000 started hiring us, same team, same people, same services. All 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:15.760 that change was the logo of the boutique got replaced 0:50:15.760 --> 0:50:17.280 with the logo of a Fortune three. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:21.279 Hundred plus Fortune three hundred is a giant. You know 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:26.000 that there's thousands and thousands of banks and funds, only 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:31.480 a couple hundred companies attain that haft size. And no, 0:50:31.880 --> 0:50:34.839 it's not just the boutique, it's everything around it. You 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:37.560 can tap into a giant network of experts. 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:39.120 And one of my clients said, listen, no one gets 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:41.359 fired for hiring a fortune three hundred. Now you are 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:45.760 part of one, and it changed our game overnight. Overnight 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:49.279 we started assigning ten twenty thirty billion dollar funds and 0:50:49.320 --> 0:50:52.120 that was incredibly exciting. So do what we love to do, 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:54.320 but to do it for some of the biggest players 0:50:54.320 --> 0:50:57.840 in the markets is very exciting. The second one is 0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:00.680 that we were able to figure out and a veil 0:51:00.840 --> 0:51:03.840 of and offer the synergy with our private wealth partners 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:06.960 at Raymond James very quickly, and for that, I'll always 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:09.359 be thankful to the leadership of the firm because they 0:51:09.400 --> 0:51:13.080 saw the opportunity and they made that happen, and that's 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:14.640 been a huge value add to our clients. 0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:17.200 I can I can imagine, all right, So I only 0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:20.680 have you for a handful of minutes left Before I 0:51:20.760 --> 0:51:23.480 get to my favorite questions that I ask all my guests, 0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:26.279 I have a couple of curve balls I have to 0:51:26.360 --> 0:51:31.080 throw you, starting with you're a certified somalier from the 0:51:31.120 --> 0:51:35.080 Court of Master Somaliers. Tell us a little bit about 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:39.400 your enthusiasm for wine and what led you into that. 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:44.160 So I started teaching a wine class at Stanford for 0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:48.239 one yearit of credit. In my junior year, I was 0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:50.239 part of living in the French House there where I 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:51.959 was member of the staff, and I had to teach 0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:54.120 a class that had something to do with France. I said, 0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:55.000 France and wine. 0:51:55.080 --> 0:51:58.040 That makes sense even though you were less than an 0:51:58.040 --> 0:51:59.200 hour from Napa Valley. 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:01.759 And guess who my teachers were. I would get guest 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:05.279 speakers and wine makers from Napa and Sonoma to come 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:08.120 and my pitch to them was, hey, you get to teach, 0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:10.600 You get to talk to and teach wine to an 0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:15.000 impressionable young audience that can go on and become loyal customers. 0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:18.120 That they loved it. They would come down and do 0:52:18.200 --> 0:52:20.720 a talk on wine, and we do a small wine tas, maybe. 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:22.920 Bring some a couple of bottles shirted. 0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:27.040 It was voted Stanford's most popular class. It would often 0:52:27.120 --> 0:52:31.120 shut down the Stanford systems during sign up day, and 0:52:31.360 --> 0:52:34.400 even after I graduated from Stanford, I kept teaching that 0:52:34.480 --> 0:52:38.200 wine class for close to three years. After graduation. When 0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:41.719 I went to Harvard for my MBA Harvard College, one 0:52:41.800 --> 0:52:45.520 of the houses their residential houses there, asked me to 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:47.560 come teach a wine seminar for them. Which I did, 0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:50.319 which was again a roaring success. And then I moved 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:52.880 to London. And when I moved to London, I said, well, 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.440 I'm not teaching anything here. I guess I'm going to 0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:57.920 lose all this wine knowledge. Let me put it to 0:52:58.000 --> 0:53:01.120 the test. And I decided to take the Court of 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:05.120 Masters Sommelier's test. It was a three day test. I 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.880 don't think I've crammed that hard for anything in my life. 0:53:08.440 --> 0:53:11.520 It was I had a blind tasting of ten wines. 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.920 It had a service test, had theory papers. It was 0:53:14.960 --> 0:53:18.320 incredibly intense, but lo and behold, I ended up passing, 0:53:18.760 --> 0:53:21.279 and here we are. It's a lifetime qualification. I still 0:53:21.280 --> 0:53:23.600 have it with pride and honor, although I don't use 0:53:23.600 --> 0:53:25.720 it as much anymore now being a mom of three. 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:28.719 So I was going to ask your London base. It's 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:32.640 a short train ride to France, to Germany to Italy. 0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:36.000 There are some great wines in that area. How often 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:41.120 do you get to go to local wineries and sample 0:53:41.160 --> 0:53:41.680 the wares. 0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:45.040 I love tasting wine, and so I have joined a 0:53:45.080 --> 0:53:49.880 wine club in London, which I love. I used to 0:53:49.920 --> 0:53:52.879 take part in blind wine tasting competitions less so now 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:57.839 so any opportunity I can to enjoy and experiment and 0:53:57.880 --> 0:54:01.120 try new wines. I do so, you absolutely right. Europe 0:54:01.200 --> 0:54:04.440 is a bastion of wine making, and so if I 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:06.879 go to board meetings in Germany, or if I head 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:10.800 off for a weekend in Spain, it's all about diving 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:14.000 deep into the local wine. I recently went for dinner 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:18.319 with about ten twelve friends to a lovely restaurant in 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:22.320 near Barcelona and Spain, and there was a wine tasting 0:54:22.360 --> 0:54:25.360 core of repairing there for all Spanish wines, and we 0:54:25.400 --> 0:54:27.680 did that together and learn more about Spanish wines than 0:54:27.680 --> 0:54:30.239 we ever thought we would know. That's the kind of 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:32.120 thing that I do now as a passionate hobby. 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:34.960 Huh. Really really interesting? All right, So all have you 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:38.359 for a few more minutes. Let's jump to our favorite questions. 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:41.960 Tell us what's keeping you entertained these days? What are 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:44.800 you either watching or listening to? What are you streaming. 0:54:46.040 --> 0:54:50.400 Watching? I have to say I tend to watch in 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:53.960 limited doses these days, given life and travel and children. 0:54:54.920 --> 0:54:59.280 But I love The Diplomat on Netflix. Fascinating again geopolitics. 0:55:00.400 --> 0:55:04.279 I'm absolutely interested in the new spy thriller that Paramount 0:55:04.280 --> 0:55:07.120 has out called The Agency. I've watched a couple of episodes. 0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:12.000 It's trending well so far. I love listening to a 0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:15.680 number of podcasts. My go to list will be Andrew 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:21.319 Humeman Love. He's a Stanford professor wright the healthcare Yes, 0:55:21.360 --> 0:55:25.000 he loves that. He talks about health wellness protocols. Super fascinating. 0:55:25.120 --> 0:55:27.040 I try to dive into his stuff as much as 0:55:27.040 --> 0:55:30.560 I possibly can. They're long, though, so sometimes it takes 0:55:30.600 --> 0:55:34.959 a few iterations. I'll often listen to the news via podcasts, 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:39.800 whether it's Bloomberg, CNBC. That's often part of my regular rota, 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:43.960 and more than any of the others. I am a 0:55:44.040 --> 0:55:47.759 huge believer in preventative mental health. I meditate every day, 0:55:48.120 --> 0:55:51.200 go to an annual meditation course, so I'm often listening 0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:55.120 to talks around meditation, around mental health. How do you 0:55:55.160 --> 0:55:58.360 deepen your meditation practice. That's a huge part of my 0:55:59.040 --> 0:55:59.960 repository as well. 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:05.239 And while we're on streaming entertainment, if you like the 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:09.040 Diplomat and The Agency, let me suggest the Lioness oh 0:56:09.239 --> 0:56:15.560 on Parami about intelligence agencies and how they infiltrate terrorist groups. 0:56:15.600 --> 0:56:18.320 Really fascinating, very cool. I just finished the first season 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:20.520 and I'm looking you need a break because it's like 0:56:21.280 --> 0:56:25.040 very tense and wow, we're about to start the second 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:28.920 So tell us about your mentors who helped shape your career. 0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:33.520 I am lucky enough to have been picked up by 0:56:33.680 --> 0:56:38.959 a wonderful professor Stanford called Professor Tom Cosnick. Tom took 0:56:39.000 --> 0:56:41.480 me on at the tenor age of nineteen or twenty, 0:56:42.080 --> 0:56:44.680 and he took me under his wing, made me a 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:48.600 research fellow. He's the one that enabled me to guest 0:56:48.680 --> 0:56:50.919 lecture at Stanford. I wrote case studies that are still 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:54.120 used in the teaching curriculum there under him, and he's 0:56:54.160 --> 0:56:59.680 been a tremendous mentor and supporter very early on and forever. 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:05.440 Thing to him for his coaching and mentorship over the years. Similarly, 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:08.400 is a wonderful professor at Standford called Professor Tina Selig. 0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:10.880 She gave me one of the best piece of advice 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:14.840 I think any young career professional, but certainly a woman, 0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:17.520 could have received. She said to me, you can have 0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:20.160 it all, just not at once. And that has stuck 0:57:20.200 --> 0:57:23.040 with me forever since. And it's been true in many 0:57:23.080 --> 0:57:25.400 walks of life, as I've had my children, as I've 0:57:25.400 --> 0:57:27.520 grown my businesses, as I do what I do on 0:57:27.520 --> 0:57:30.240 a daily basis. So those are the two that stand 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:33.640 out both at Stanford. Both influential in the way they 0:57:33.680 --> 0:57:36.560 mentored me, but also what they imparted in me. 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:41.040 Really interesting. Let's talk about books. What are some of 0:57:41.080 --> 0:57:42.800 your favorites and what are you reading right now? 0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:48.320 I love the book The Big Leap by Gray Hendrix. 0:57:48.960 --> 0:57:51.680 Everyone should pick it up. It's a quick read. It 0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:57.160 talks about upper limits, how we set upper limits unconsciously 0:57:57.160 --> 0:58:00.000 in our lives. He starts off with this great research 0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:03.720 about how most lottery winners after five years, most of 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:06.680 them end up being broke, really unhappy. 0:58:06.600 --> 0:58:08.840 Broke, divorce, suicide. It's terrible. 0:58:08.920 --> 0:58:12.080 It's terrible. Why we've just been coming to all these riches. 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:15.920 The mind has a reset point that brings you down 0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:18.560 into what you're used to feeling and the kind of 0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:21.160 mental space you're used to inhabiting. How do you break 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:23.360 out of that and increase your upper limits so you 0:58:23.400 --> 0:58:25.760 can continue to scale in your life and in your career, 0:58:26.560 --> 0:58:29.240 in your personal life and so on. Fascinating quick read. 0:58:29.480 --> 0:58:34.160 Big Leap by Gay Hendrix Highly recommended. I'm reading a 0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:36.600 book right now. I'm only about thirty pages into it. 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:39.840 Called the Mind Matters. Back to my thematic about mental 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:44.400 and understanding how the mind works and mental health. Mind 0:58:44.400 --> 0:58:47.960 Matters is by a professor who talks about how the 0:58:48.040 --> 0:58:51.439 mind can often visualize things into reality. So you hear 0:58:51.520 --> 0:58:55.000 this phrase called manifestation a lot. This is a neuroscientist 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:58.040 studying what that means in terms of how the brain 0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:01.480 fires to try to make things into reality for us. 0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:05.320 Fascinating thirty five pages or so. So far so early innings, 0:59:05.320 --> 0:59:06.080 but it's gone. 0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:10.360 Well, really interesting. And our final two questions, what sort 0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:12.880 of advice would you give to a recent college grad 0:59:13.440 --> 0:59:18.480 interested in a career in private markets or finance. 0:59:19.680 --> 0:59:23.200 My number one piece of advice to anybody entering finance 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:28.000 is play the long game. Too many young people, I'm 0:59:28.040 --> 0:59:30.320 sure that you come across, Berry, that I come across, 0:59:30.640 --> 0:59:32.720 are all about the short term hits and the short 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:35.160 term wins. If it doesn't work out, they move on 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:36.800 and they try to make it work somewhere else, and 0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:40.240 they move on again. A rolling stone gathers no moss, 0:59:40.400 --> 0:59:43.760 and especially in finance, it's a world that ends up 0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:48.240 being one, maybe two degrees of separation. It's a world 0:59:48.240 --> 0:59:51.520 in which relationships still really, really matter, and you have 0:59:51.600 --> 0:59:54.560 to cultivate them. Thinking about a ten to twenty year 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:57.160 career in mind, not what can this person do for 0:59:57.200 --> 0:59:59.680 me today, or this week, or this month or immediately. 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:02.840 And that is I think one of the most profound 1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:05.560 pieces of advice I leaned into early in my career. 1:00:05.680 --> 1:00:08.720 Looking at every human being as a long term investment 1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:12.520 of time and energy, not looking for quick paybacks, same 1:00:12.560 --> 1:00:15.760 with investment investing in private equity, but certainly true when 1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:16.480 it comes to people. 1:00:17.040 --> 1:00:20.280 Really interesting and our final question, what do you know 1:00:20.320 --> 1:00:23.520 about the world of private equity today? You wish you 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:26.840 knew twenty plus years ago when you were first starting out. 1:00:28.000 --> 1:00:30.400 What I know now that I wish I knew back 1:00:30.440 --> 1:00:35.960 then is that the market will change and adapt even 1:00:36.120 --> 1:00:39.640 faster and more furiously than you ever thought possible. Did 1:00:39.680 --> 1:00:42.720 we see the trillions of dollars in the private equity 1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:43.680 primary market? 1:00:43.720 --> 1:00:43.760 No? 1:00:44.440 --> 1:00:47.080 Did I see the secondary's market growing to one hundred 1:00:47.120 --> 1:00:50.880 and fifty billion on its way to a trillion dollars itself, No, 1:00:51.640 --> 1:00:56.240 So the growth will far outpace your wildest dreams, both 1:00:56.240 --> 1:00:59.200 in your own industry but also in the finance world 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:01.800 around you. Think about twenty years ago, had you and 1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:05.000 I ever envisioned the mag seven and the trends we're 1:01:05.000 --> 1:01:07.840 seeing in technology and how markets would be at the 1:01:07.880 --> 1:01:10.720 levels they are today, not even in our wildest dreams. 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:13.240 So as I think about the next twenty years, I 1:01:13.320 --> 1:01:13.840 keep that in. 1:01:13.800 --> 1:01:17.600 Mind really really interesting. Thank you, Sanana for being so 1:01:17.760 --> 1:01:20.720 generous with your time we have been speaking with. Sanna 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:24.920 Sinhachi is the global head of the Private Capital Advisory 1:01:24.920 --> 1:01:29.120 Group for Raymond James. If you enjoy this conversation, well, 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:31.720 be sure and check out any of the previous five 1:01:31.800 --> 1:01:34.760 hundred and forty we've done over the past ten and 1:01:34.760 --> 1:01:38.880 a half years. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, 1:01:39.040 --> 1:01:44.040 Bloomberg YouTube, wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And be 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:46.920 sure and check out my new podcast At the Money, 1:01:47.440 --> 1:01:52.840 short ten minute conversations with experts about topics affecting your money, 1:01:53.120 --> 1:01:56.840 earning it, spending it, and most importantly, investing it At 1:01:56.840 --> 1:02:00.320 the Money, in the Masters in Business, feed or wherever 1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:03.600 you find your favorite podcasts. I would be remiss if 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:05.440 I did not thank the Cracked team who helps us 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:09.480 put these conversations together each week. John Wasserman is my 1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:13.800 audio engineer. Anna Luke is my producer. Sean Russo is 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:16.920 my researcher. Sage Bauman is the head of podcasts here 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:21.040 at Bloomberg. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening to Masters 1:02:21.120 --> 1:02:26.360 in Business on Bloomberg Radio.