WEBVTT - Will We Reach Herd Immunity? 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.440 Welcome to Woke af with me Danielle Moodie. Every week 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.640 on my Patreon, I have thoughtful and engaging conversations with 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.360 expert guests about the latest headlines that are catching my attention. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.040 Every Wednesday, which I call Woke Wednesdays, I speak with 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.360 doctor Jonathan Metzel, director of the Vanderbilt University Department of Medicine, 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.760 Health and Society and author of Dying of Whiteness, how 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:38.360 the politics of racial resentment is killing America's heartland. This week, 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.760 I wanted to talk with Jonathan about the fact that 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.800 not enough Americans are getting vaccinated and in order for 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.400 us to hit the seventy percent threshold needed for her 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:51.280 immunity in this country, everyone needs to get vaccinated. Our 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:55.080 conversation turned into a spirited back and forth about why 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.120 these people are refusing to get vaccinated and how we 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.480 can convince them for the greater good of our public health. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.480 We wanted to share our entire half hour chat with you, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.640 unedited and unfiltered, to give you the full picture of 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.039 the health crisis we are continuing to face in this moment. 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.520 To hear more conversations like these every single week, five 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.760 days a week, consider supporting me and woke AF daily 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:24.560 on Patreon at patreon dot com slash woke AF. Folks, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.559 you know that when it is a Wednesday, I'm always 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.440 so excited to be joined by our favorite doctor in 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.000 the house, doctor Jonathan Metzel, to talk to us about 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.680 the latest with the coronavirus, with gun violence, with dying 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:40.880 of whiteness. You know him, you have read his book, 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.120 which is pretty much our guide in this current apocalypse 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:49.400 that we are living in. Jonathan news has been circulating. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.559 Headlines are all saying the same thing, America is not 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.320 going to reach hard immunity, that our desire for the 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.760 vaccine has reached a lateau where the people that have 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:05.720 wanted to get the vaccine got it. This CDC is 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:11.280 now opening, will excuse me, Fiser now has a vaccine 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.960 that is going to be able to be distributed now 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.360 for people from the ages of twelve to fifteen. My 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.840 assumption one is that obviously they were looking for vaccination 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.840 that was going to be safe for younger people, but 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.760 two that if we can get that group vaccinated by 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.400 the parents and caregivers that actually give a damn, then 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.960 we will get closer and closer to that seventy percent, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.959 which will identify for us the area that we can 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.360 say that we can reach hard immunity. Tell me what 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.799 these headlines mean to you and what they are forecasting 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.960 for the future of America and its battle with the 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.720 COVID nineteen. Well, so many thoughts about this. I mean, 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.960 it's such massive news. I guess a couple things. I mean, 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:57.960 number one, let's just be clear, we have a vaccine 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.280 that works. If everybody got vaccinated, we would add the pandemic. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.560 And so why didn't Why didn't we get that right? 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:05.200 I mean, I think that there was so much hope 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.160 leading up to the vaccine that like, oh, people are 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.160 crazy about masks, then they're crazy about washing their hands. 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.440 But when the vaccine comes out, everybody will kind of 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.320 alining get the vaccine because of course we want to 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.959 go back to normal. But we did. We did go 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.519 back to normal. We going back to polarized normal. And 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.720 so you know, I guess there's a couple ways to 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.399 read this. And just to be clear, if people don't 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.880 get vaccinated, then it makes us more susceptible to variants, 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.000 It makes us more susceptible to the virus mutating. And 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.600 this whole thing starting over. It makes us more susceptible 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:40.720 to a brutal fourth wave on the fall. So there 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.119 are real world implications to what we're seeing now, which 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.280 is that we have more vaccines than we have people 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.000 who are willing to get the vaccine, which is the 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:50.320 opposite of the problem everywhe else in the world where 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.080 people would like, you know, eat their lawnmower for a vaccine, right, 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.160 but we don't have that. We have the opposite problem. 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.920 And so what do you call that? You call that ignorance? 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.400 Do you call that privilege? Do you call that whatever? 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.360 Let's just be rhetorical here for a minute. Let's assume 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.080 that people are rational actors, right, I mean, I know 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.280 it's far fact, so I need to suspect, I need 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.560 to suspend reality. Okay, let's let's do that. I mean, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.200 because this is a new virus and this is a 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.159 new vaccine, and so how did we get to the 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.440 point where like thirty or forty percent of people aren't 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.000 going to get to the vaccine? You know, I think 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.600 you could say there's the easy answer, which to me 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.080 is ungratified, like, oh, they're dumb, or they're racist, or 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.159 they're whatever, Like, you know, great, but let's assume that 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.480 they're they're acting as part of a particular belief system. Right. 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.480 That belief system is mistrust in science, mistrust in authority. 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.640 Somebody's telling them not to do it. I think for me, 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.839 the question is like, how do you address that belief 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.880 system right in a way that you know that I 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:56.920 don't know. I just feel frustration because on one hand, 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.640 of course we want people to get the vaccine, but 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.560 didn't we see from masks, for example, that there are massive, 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:09.839 massive disinformation campaigns that try to foment polarization and benefit 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:14.160 from it monetarily, right, And so with masks, for example, 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.200 the whole Trim campaign was built on making people not 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.400 wear masks and not believing it. And with vaccines it's 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:25.719 even quadrupled. Right. There are huge, huge disinformation campaigns that 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:30.520 are based on people making money by people not getting vaccinated, right, 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.279 selling other kinds of concoctions that they have financial interests, 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.880 or treatments that are crafted, or just keeping the pandemic 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.599 going and making an endemic. So in a way, it 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.400 wasn't just like, oh, hey, good citizens of America, here's 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.320 the vaccine enlightenment. I mean, we would hope that's true, 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.560 but if there wasn't also a strategy for disrupting the 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.560 disinformation campaigns, then this is going to be the outcome 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.760 in a particular way. And so I guess I mean, 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.839 just to be clear, I hate this pandemic. It's ruined everything, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.200 and I wanted to be over and I want everybody 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.360 to get vaccinated. But I also think that we get 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.520 into this kind of virtue binary on our side of 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.080 either you're on the side of knowledge or you're like 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.720 a frigging dipshit who just loves the coronavirus. And that 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.160 binary itself is something we should have strategies for. And 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.680 so I believe me, I'm very critical. I mean, I 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.159 just spent an hour doing a focus group trying to 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:30.880 convince people what would it take for you to get 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.200 the vaccine? I'm living this right now, So tell us, Jonathan. 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:39.400 Because outside of the brilliant people that make time to 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:41.680 come on Woke a f I don't really talk to 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:46.400 a lot of regular people, right, So let me let 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.640 me just be honest. I really don't. I don't spend 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.680 a lot of time talking to like regular middle of 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.520 the road Americans. I don't even know what that actually means. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.360 But the people that I talk to on a regular 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.880 basis are highly educated, and so there is a ski 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.560 that's there. What are folks saying because one of the 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.120 I will say this, I saw a tweet go around 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.960 yesterday that said one hundred and fifty million people have 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.360 gotten the vaccine. Right, one hundred and fifty million Americans 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:20.400 have gotten the vaccine. None of them have died. But 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:27.720 five hundred and eighty seven thousand Americans caught the coronavirus 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.280 and did in fact die. Right, that's our death toll, 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.240 give or take. You know, it's still early in the 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:39.280 morning where we are. What the fuck is the rationale 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.080 right now? Where you can look at the vaccine and 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:46.680 say millions, hundreds of millions of Americans have gotten it 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.120 and no one's dead, No one's lost the limb, no 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.640 one lost their eyesight, None of this bullshit that people 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.120 are feeding to Americans has actually happened. But you know 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.240 what has happened is that over half a million Americans 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.840 are dead because of the coronavirus. So what is their rationale? 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.680 And these focus groups for saying I am so afraid 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.920 of this vaccine, I'm more afraid of what could possibly 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.120 keep me and my family and my community safe than 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.680 I am. The virus that I know for certain, over 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.560 the last three hundred and sixty five fucking days has 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:27.720 killed nearly a million Americans. Well, I love these conversations. 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.600 This is the real conversation. But I would also say 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:35.960 that even your question made an assumption that is potentially 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.360 part of the problem. No, no, no, yes, you made 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.440 an assumption that you speak to educated people, but everyday 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.719 people aren't educated anyway. I know, I know that's not 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:50.400 what you meant. No, it is like it actually is 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.920 what I meant, because I believe that if you believe 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.440 in facts and science, and doctor Faucci is not your enemy, 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.080 and you believe in the people who have spent their 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:05.880 careers in science, in development of vaccinations, in research and data, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.160 and you are not believing those people, but you are 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:12.679 believing Tucker Carlson. Yes, I actually it was not an oversight. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.040 I meant what I said. So let me reframe that 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.800 question in a way that I think is a different 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.840 way to think about it. Right, Because I've interviewed lots 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.480 of people who are very educated. I've interviewed people whose 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:29.000 own parents ended up in the ICU from COVID and 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.439 so there's something about this belief system. But let's think 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.920 about this in a very different way. And again I realized, 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:35.959 just to highlight what we're up against here, I think 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:40.240 that's kind of my point. But imagine that you're trying 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.040 to sell something to the country. Imagine you're trying to 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.320 sell the vaccine, as one example, you get a dollar 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.800 for every vaccine you get somebody to take. And what 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.800 would your strategy be for reaching people right in a 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.520 certain kind of way. And so there are certain people 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:55.840 who are just going to You're going to get a 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:57.959 dollar forever for them because they're going to run out 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.960 and get the vaccine. But then there are other people 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.400 bold who they're hearing all this other information, their idea 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.920 of education is something different because the people around in 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.880 their community is you know, their community is saying something. 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.400 We know that vaccine hesitancy, for example, comes out of 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.520 community and communities. And then there's also a competitor who 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.600 wants that dollar from them to not get the vaccine. 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.280 And that person is pumping like it's almost like the 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.480 smell when you walk by subway and they pump out 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.440 that bread smell that's fake. But that person is pumping 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.560 out fake information the other way. So what would you 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.440 do to address those people? If your goal is to 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:40.440 get everybody vaccinated, you would try to say, well, what's 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.520 their world view and how can I appeal to it 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.199 in a particular way. How could I sell something to them? 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.720 You kind of want to craft a message that works 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.480 to them in a particular way, and then the next 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.080 time that happens, you would do it in advance, before 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.880 the disinformation machine has a right, has an ability to 0:10:57.920 --> 0:10:59.440 take it over. Now, I understand a lot of people 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.600 are working. I get that, but I'm just saying that 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.880 you have to recognize that in a way, it's not 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.480 just about, oh, those people are uneducated. It's that there's 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.720 a whole machine that's shaping their opinion in a way 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.480 that we don't address in any way directly enough. I mean, 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.960 I think we made this mistake very, very badly in 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.280 the beginning of the pandemic, where we were like, of course, 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.920 wear a mask because that's going to protect your family 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:26.440 and your community and all that kind of stuff. But 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.679 we didn't realize that there was a whole other, massive 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.560 industry on their side that was saying that's you know, 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.480 I mean basically there are two. It's not any mystery 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.520 if you tell you know, conservative people in parts of 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.720 the country, it's government overreach and it's taking away your liberty. 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:45.760 Or black people are going to cut in front of 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.480 you in line and get resources that are meant for you. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.720 Those two narratives you can get people to do pretty 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.160 much anything. So the question is if we know that, 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.280 what are we going to do to disrupt that narrative? Right? 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.960 It can't be telling people that they're uneducated. That can't 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:01.920 be the answer. No, And let me tell you that 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.800 would probably a reason why I am not a spokesperson 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:09.280 for anybody other than wok F Nation, But I think 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.080 that in order to sell right, you have to know 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.480 what is most appealing to people. So for me, I 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.520 would take a page out of Oh, I don't know 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:25.760 every single friggin Instagram, ad pusher, Facebook ad pusher, used 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.160 car salesman, what have you, which is appealing to nostalgia right? 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.679 For me? Do you know what I think would get 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:37.360 people back are commercials of showing them the pictures of 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.080 their old life, right, pictures of you being able to 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.320 just you know, go to the grocery store, pick up 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:48.120 your kid from school, attend a game, hug your friends, 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.719 like just a montage and say we are on our 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.800 way back to we are only halfway there, like this 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.160 is what we need to get you all the way there. 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.560 And I would pump those out in every single type 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:07.240 of commercial, Instagram, social media advertisement that appeals to people 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:12.440 for thirty five to sixty seconds, right with songs that 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:18.520 hit from each generation about like reconnecting with community and 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:24.000 re emerging from lockdown. Right. But the problem here is 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:29.120 that you have states like Florida, Texas, Tennessee and others 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.360 that never fully went down into lockdown and now they're 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.360 just going but gangbusters. And I want to know your 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.400 thought to Jonathan on where New York is and what 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.880 New York is getting ready to do in the next 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.800 two weeks on May nineteenth, with everything one hundred percent open, 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.600 and tell me you're feeling about that. But that is 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.040 how I believe that if I were in charge, how 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.840 I would start selling the vaccine. Okay, well, that's a 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.320 great answer. That's a beginning of an answer, because what 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.200 you're doing is you're putting yourself in the position out 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.360 of the seller, but of the consumer. Right in a 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.400 certain kind of way, which public health doesn't do. That's 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.080 my point here. Public health never does this. So you 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.320 just vaccinated half the resistant people because they looked and 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.400 they watched you know, the beach boys, and they got 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.360 it all nostalgic. And then the other half of the 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.480 people you have to actually understand what drives them. And 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.880 I have no expertise there. I'm just I've studied guns 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.720 for fifteen years and I've seen the gun control movement 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.280 below this point. That's why this is where my opinions 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.000 are coming from. But the other half of the people, 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.440 you've got to understand their catchwords. And maybe there's no 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.800 right answer here, but catchwords like liberty and freedom, and 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.080 so if it was me, it's part of it is 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.280 community and getting back to life. You'll get half the 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.640 people that way, but the other half, why don't you 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.160 take the liberty What about the vaccine liberty movement or 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.240 the vaccine freedom movement? You know, getting vaccinated is a 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.480 form of liberty. It's a way of sticking it to 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.000 the government. You can, you know, all these kinds of things. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.400 So one of the words co opt their narrative and 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.960 then feed it back to them in a way that 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:06.880 serves your own goal. If your own goal is getting 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.680 everybody vaccinated, take their narrative and flip it back to them. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.920 And I'll tell you who does this really well, it's 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.160 the NRA, right, The NRA is now selling guns, calling 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.360 themselves a civil rights movement. You know, their ads now 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.000 are like, the police aren't going to protect you, buy 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.000 a gun because they're going to protect you. So they 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.720 take they take the tensions of the other side, they 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.840 identify them, and they flip them for their own purposes. 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.880 And it just frustrates me, Like, you know, didn't we 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.040 learn from mask that just appealing to public health and 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.120 you know, it just it just it doesn't work for 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:39.560 half of people. And if our goal is to get 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.480 everybody involved, we should be taking the themes of the 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.400 other side and then flipping them for our own purposes. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.320 And you know, again, I just think that that's better 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.440 than telling people like what the hell's wrong with you 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.640 or something? If our goal, again, our goal is strategically 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.120 to get everybody vaccinated. And so you know, again, I've 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.840 been thinking about this a lot because I study guns, right, 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.280 and the whole gun control movement is based on people 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:07.800 are dying, damn it. And it's true, people really really 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.240 are dying. But we've went hook like in line and 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.240 sinker for the public health model. But the people who 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.720 are selling guns, it's all about liberty and freedom and autonomy. 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.560 And so how come we can't take that and say 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.880 guns aren't liberty, you're chained to the gun industry or 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.440 something like that, like something that actually takes their theme 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.360 and flips it. But when we're just saying, oh, it's 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.160 a public health model, I just feel like it lets 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.640 the other side politicize science. And I guess the reason 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.920 I'm telling you this is because I see us doing 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.760 exactly the same thing here, you know, and there are 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.720 people way smarter than me doing this. But I will say, 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.000 having done a lot of focus groups, I just feel 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.840 like we're not speaking the language that people understand enough. 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:53.120 And really, what it does is it gives people like 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.720 the Santas and people like that total free reign to 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.480 never have to answer to their own people, right, So 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:04.119 that miss those descantists and Trump people are not looking 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.520 to They don't ask any questions, do you know what 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.720 I'm saying? Like, I think, to me, what is the 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.560 scariest point of where we are is that those people 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:18.000 don't ask questions. They are just blind followers. Right. So 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.480 the Tucker Carlson's and the Trumps and the Descantists and 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.200 all of those people, they got vaccinated, right, Like, let's 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.920 all be one hundred percent clear that they all got vaccinated, 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:34.280 but are willingly telling their people not to. Right. But 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.479 the question is what price do they pay for them? 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:38.800 Right now, we make I mean, they don't pay any 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.000 price for them. And that's part of the issue, right, 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.800 there's no price. It's only benefit for them. They they've 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:48.760 monetized conflict, they've monetized polarization, they've monetized hate. So they 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:53.600 actually get rewarded, financially rewarded for positions that rip our 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.359 country in half. And the question is where is the 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.080 place where they pay a price for it? Right? Certainly 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.359 are I can see, oh that they pay a price 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.320 for it, But where are there certain other words, This 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:11.480 is just a totally cress stupid example. But vaccines, vaccine liberty, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.880 vaccine freedom. Why is Tucker Carlson blocking your vaccine freedom? 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.000 You know, something like that, like make him answer to 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.320 his base in the language that he's using. But just 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.080 flip it on its head. Again, this is just a 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.359 theory on my part, having studied you know what, I 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.760 feel like our unnecessary tensions between public health and popular opinion. 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.040 But I feel like we haven't done enough to counter 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.040 politicize public health in ways that answers this. So, how 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.840 come Tucker Carlson doesn't have to answer for blocking people's 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.320 vaccine freedom? You know something like that, you know, make 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.000 him answer, why are you blocking our American god given 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.399 liberty and chance to expand Medicaid? That's part of what 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.200 it means to be an American. You're blocking our healthcare freedom, 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.920 you know, stuff like that. And I don't understand a 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:00.359 lot of people are working on this, but I'm just 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.879 saying that it's easy to fall into the trap of 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.440 like we're smart and they're dumb, because you know, who 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.560 wouldn't get a vaccine for everything we've seen, right, it 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.280 seems so compensible. But I also think it's important to 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.320 disrupt these very racializing narratives in ways that make people 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.640 on the defensive, make them answer to their own constituencis. 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.800 I feel like we never do. I like this. I'm 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:26.959 also on the hook for writing an op ed, and 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.120 I'm just like, oh, maybe I go after Tucker Carlson, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:35.160 which I haven't done for years. Part of the problem 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.080 I think that we're experiencing, particularly with this administration, is 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:44.160 that sometimes when you were steeped in too much goodness, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.840 too much belief, that the American people are inherently good, right, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.960 and that they just got distracted by the bad man Trump. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.880 But as soon as the good people come in, then 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.719 they'll come back to their senses. And that I believe 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.440 is honestly the belief of this administration. Like, oh, they 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.040 you know, they're right now out there in the streets 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.639 talking about how America is not a racist country, and 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.040 I'm like, we don't get anywhere by continuing to lie. 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.000 We don't advance, we don't develop, we don't grow by 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.639 continuing a narrative that is a lie, right, And so 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.639 I believe that inherently they think that Americans, you know, 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.240 are this good, loving people, and so we're going to 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.159 use this a one size fits all type of strategy, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.400 which is just about love of country, love of community, 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.200 love of self. And that's why you're getting the vaccine, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.600 And isn't that why everybody's getting the vaccine? And the 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.760 reality is that, no, you have a group of people 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.199 who believe like wholeheartedly in science and that is what 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.520 has dictated their movements. Then you have people that are 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.080 just like, oooh, I'm on the fence, I'm getting misinformation. 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.399 I don't really know who to trust, and isn't the 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.760 healthcare industrial complex like all about money anyway? And what 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.119 is this really going to do for me? And then 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.080 you have other people that are just like, fuck this. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.119 I'm an American. You don't get to tell me what 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.440 to do. So in a two year old tantrum, I'm 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.520 going to say, I'm not getting the vaccine because you 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:10.520 want me to get the vaccine and I don't like you. 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.240 So that's what I'm going to do. Listen. I mean, 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:18.840 I'm feeling very I'm feeling very counterpointy today, so I'm 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:23.280 going to push back on that, and I like counterpoint Jonathan. 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.200 And let me just say this. Imagine that our goal 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.160 is to get everybody vaccinated. That's our goal. Our goal 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.159 is not to say we're on the good side and 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:32.359 they're on the bad side. Our goal is to get 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.640 everybody vaccinated. How are you going to do that? Right? 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:37.840 Fox News figured this out and I figured this out 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.840 in the opposite But for our side, what's the best 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:43.840 way to get people to do that. It's not telling 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.520 people that they're dumb, are uneducated. That's not going to work. 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.000 It's just going to reinforce their idea that we're a 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.359 bunch of elites and they're a bunch of like everyday people. 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.760 So how can you use the material we have? I mean, 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.880 I personally feel like a minute we're arguing about whether 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.680 America is racist or not, if we're on that terrain, 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.080 we've already lost. We're lost because it's like it's like, great, 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.640 let's have that argument for the next nine thousand years. Uh. 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.720 And it's just you know, when we're on that battlefield, 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:14.399 it's the long battlefield for us. So there are ways 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.480