1 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Woke af with me Danielle Moodie. Every week 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: on my Patreon, I have thoughtful and engaging conversations with 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: expert guests about the latest headlines that are catching my attention. 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: Every Wednesday, which I call Woke Wednesdays, I speak with 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel, director of the Vanderbilt University Department of Medicine, 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: Health and Society and author of Dying of Whiteness, how 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: the politics of racial resentment is killing America's heartland. This week, 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk with Jonathan about the fact that 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: not enough Americans are getting vaccinated and in order for 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: us to hit the seventy percent threshold needed for her 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: immunity in this country, everyone needs to get vaccinated. Our 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: conversation turned into a spirited back and forth about why 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: these people are refusing to get vaccinated and how we 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: can convince them for the greater good of our public health. 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: We wanted to share our entire half hour chat with you, 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: unedited and unfiltered, to give you the full picture of 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: the health crisis we are continuing to face in this moment. 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: To hear more conversations like these every single week, five 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: days a week, consider supporting me and woke AF daily 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: on Patreon at patreon dot com slash woke AF. Folks, 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 1: you know that when it is a Wednesday, I'm always 22 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: so excited to be joined by our favorite doctor in 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: the house, doctor Jonathan Metzel, to talk to us about 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: the latest with the coronavirus, with gun violence, with dying 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: of whiteness. You know him, you have read his book, 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: which is pretty much our guide in this current apocalypse 27 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: that we are living in. Jonathan news has been circulating. 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: Headlines are all saying the same thing, America is not 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: going to reach hard immunity, that our desire for the 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: vaccine has reached a lateau where the people that have 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: wanted to get the vaccine got it. This CDC is 32 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: now opening, will excuse me, Fiser now has a vaccine 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: that is going to be able to be distributed now 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: for people from the ages of twelve to fifteen. My 35 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: assumption one is that obviously they were looking for vaccination 36 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: that was going to be safe for younger people, but 37 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: two that if we can get that group vaccinated by 38 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: the parents and caregivers that actually give a damn, then 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: we will get closer and closer to that seventy percent, 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: which will identify for us the area that we can 41 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: say that we can reach hard immunity. Tell me what 42 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: these headlines mean to you and what they are forecasting 43 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: for the future of America and its battle with the 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. Well, so many thoughts about this. I mean, 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: it's such massive news. I guess a couple things. I mean, 46 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: number one, let's just be clear, we have a vaccine 47 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: that works. If everybody got vaccinated, we would add the pandemic. 48 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: And so why didn't Why didn't we get that right? 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that there was so much hope 50 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: leading up to the vaccine that like, oh, people are 51 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: crazy about masks, then they're crazy about washing their hands. 52 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: But when the vaccine comes out, everybody will kind of 53 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: alining get the vaccine because of course we want to 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: go back to normal. But we did. We did go 55 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: back to normal. We going back to polarized normal. And 56 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: so you know, I guess there's a couple ways to 57 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: read this. And just to be clear, if people don't 58 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: get vaccinated, then it makes us more susceptible to variants, 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: It makes us more susceptible to the virus mutating. And 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: this whole thing starting over. It makes us more susceptible 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: to a brutal fourth wave on the fall. So there 62 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 1: are real world implications to what we're seeing now, which 63 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: is that we have more vaccines than we have people 64 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: who are willing to get the vaccine, which is the 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: opposite of the problem everywhe else in the world where 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: people would like, you know, eat their lawnmower for a vaccine, right, 67 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: but we don't have that. We have the opposite problem. 68 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: And so what do you call that? You call that ignorance? 69 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: Do you call that privilege? Do you call that whatever? 70 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: Let's just be rhetorical here for a minute. Let's assume 71 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: that people are rational actors, right, I mean, I know 72 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: it's far fact, so I need to suspect, I need 73 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: to suspend reality. Okay, let's let's do that. I mean, 74 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: because this is a new virus and this is a 75 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: new vaccine, and so how did we get to the 76 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: point where like thirty or forty percent of people aren't 77 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: going to get to the vaccine? You know, I think 78 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: you could say there's the easy answer, which to me 79 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: is ungratified, like, oh, they're dumb, or they're racist, or 80 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: they're whatever, Like, you know, great, but let's assume that 81 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: they're they're acting as part of a particular belief system. Right. 82 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: That belief system is mistrust in science, mistrust in authority. 83 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: Somebody's telling them not to do it. I think for me, 84 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: the question is like, how do you address that belief 85 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: system right in a way that you know that I 86 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: don't know. I just feel frustration because on one hand, 87 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: of course we want people to get the vaccine, but 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: didn't we see from masks, for example, that there are massive, 89 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: massive disinformation campaigns that try to foment polarization and benefit 90 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: from it monetarily, right, And so with masks, for example, 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: the whole Trim campaign was built on making people not 92 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: wear masks and not believing it. And with vaccines it's 93 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: even quadrupled. Right. There are huge, huge disinformation campaigns that 94 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: are based on people making money by people not getting vaccinated, right, 95 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: selling other kinds of concoctions that they have financial interests, 96 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: or treatments that are crafted, or just keeping the pandemic 97 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: going and making an endemic. So in a way, it 98 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: wasn't just like, oh, hey, good citizens of America, here's 99 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: the vaccine enlightenment. I mean, we would hope that's true, 100 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: but if there wasn't also a strategy for disrupting the 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: disinformation campaigns, then this is going to be the outcome 102 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: in a particular way. And so I guess I mean, 103 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: just to be clear, I hate this pandemic. It's ruined everything, 104 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: and I wanted to be over and I want everybody 105 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: to get vaccinated. But I also think that we get 106 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: into this kind of virtue binary on our side of 107 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: either you're on the side of knowledge or you're like 108 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: a frigging dipshit who just loves the coronavirus. And that 109 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: binary itself is something we should have strategies for. And 110 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: so I believe me, I'm very critical. I mean, I 111 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: just spent an hour doing a focus group trying to 112 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: convince people what would it take for you to get 113 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: the vaccine? I'm living this right now, So tell us, Jonathan. 114 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: Because outside of the brilliant people that make time to 115 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: come on Woke a f I don't really talk to 116 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: a lot of regular people, right, So let me let 117 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: me just be honest. I really don't. I don't spend 118 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: a lot of time talking to like regular middle of 119 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: the road Americans. I don't even know what that actually means. 120 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: But the people that I talk to on a regular 121 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: basis are highly educated, and so there is a ski 122 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: that's there. What are folks saying because one of the 123 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: I will say this, I saw a tweet go around 124 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: yesterday that said one hundred and fifty million people have 125 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: gotten the vaccine. Right, one hundred and fifty million Americans 126 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: have gotten the vaccine. None of them have died. But 127 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: five hundred and eighty seven thousand Americans caught the coronavirus 128 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: and did in fact die. Right, that's our death toll, 129 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: give or take. You know, it's still early in the 130 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: morning where we are. What the fuck is the rationale 131 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: right now? Where you can look at the vaccine and 132 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: say millions, hundreds of millions of Americans have gotten it 133 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: and no one's dead, No one's lost the limb, no 134 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: one lost their eyesight, None of this bullshit that people 135 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: are feeding to Americans has actually happened. But you know 136 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: what has happened is that over half a million Americans 137 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: are dead because of the coronavirus. So what is their rationale? 138 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: And these focus groups for saying I am so afraid 139 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: of this vaccine, I'm more afraid of what could possibly 140 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: keep me and my family and my community safe than 141 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: I am. The virus that I know for certain, over 142 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: the last three hundred and sixty five fucking days has 143 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: killed nearly a million Americans. Well, I love these conversations. 144 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: This is the real conversation. But I would also say 145 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: that even your question made an assumption that is potentially 146 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: part of the problem. No, no, no, yes, you made 147 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: an assumption that you speak to educated people, but everyday 148 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: people aren't educated anyway. I know, I know that's not 149 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: what you meant. No, it is like it actually is 150 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: what I meant, because I believe that if you believe 151 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: in facts and science, and doctor Faucci is not your enemy, 152 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: and you believe in the people who have spent their 153 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: careers in science, in development of vaccinations, in research and data, 154 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: and you are not believing those people, but you are 155 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: believing Tucker Carlson. Yes, I actually it was not an oversight. 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: I meant what I said. So let me reframe that 157 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: question in a way that I think is a different 158 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: way to think about it. Right, Because I've interviewed lots 159 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: of people who are very educated. I've interviewed people whose 160 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: own parents ended up in the ICU from COVID and 161 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: so there's something about this belief system. But let's think 162 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: about this in a very different way. And again I realized, 163 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: just to highlight what we're up against here, I think 164 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: that's kind of my point. But imagine that you're trying 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: to sell something to the country. Imagine you're trying to 166 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: sell the vaccine, as one example, you get a dollar 167 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: for every vaccine you get somebody to take. And what 168 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: would your strategy be for reaching people right in a 169 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: certain kind of way. And so there are certain people 170 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: who are just going to You're going to get a 171 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: dollar forever for them because they're going to run out 172 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: and get the vaccine. But then there are other people 173 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: bold who they're hearing all this other information, their idea 174 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: of education is something different because the people around in 175 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: their community is you know, their community is saying something. 176 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: We know that vaccine hesitancy, for example, comes out of 177 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: community and communities. And then there's also a competitor who 178 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: wants that dollar from them to not get the vaccine. 179 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: And that person is pumping like it's almost like the 180 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: smell when you walk by subway and they pump out 181 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: that bread smell that's fake. But that person is pumping 182 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: out fake information the other way. So what would you 183 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: do to address those people? If your goal is to 184 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: get everybody vaccinated, you would try to say, well, what's 185 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: their world view and how can I appeal to it 186 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: in a particular way. How could I sell something to them? 187 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: You kind of want to craft a message that works 188 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: to them in a particular way, and then the next 189 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: time that happens, you would do it in advance, before 190 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: the disinformation machine has a right, has an ability to 191 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: take it over. Now, I understand a lot of people 192 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: are working. I get that, but I'm just saying that 193 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: you have to recognize that in a way, it's not 194 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: just about, oh, those people are uneducated. It's that there's 195 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: a whole machine that's shaping their opinion in a way 196 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: that we don't address in any way directly enough. I mean, 197 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: I think we made this mistake very, very badly in 198 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic, where we were like, of course, 199 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: wear a mask because that's going to protect your family 200 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: and your community and all that kind of stuff. But 201 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: we didn't realize that there was a whole other, massive 202 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: industry on their side that was saying that's you know, 203 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: I mean basically there are two. It's not any mystery 204 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: if you tell you know, conservative people in parts of 205 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: the country, it's government overreach and it's taking away your liberty. 206 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: Or black people are going to cut in front of 207 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: you in line and get resources that are meant for you. 208 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: Those two narratives you can get people to do pretty 209 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: much anything. So the question is if we know that, 210 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: what are we going to do to disrupt that narrative? Right? 211 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: It can't be telling people that they're uneducated. That can't 212 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: be the answer. No, And let me tell you that 213 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: would probably a reason why I am not a spokesperson 214 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: for anybody other than wok F Nation, But I think 215 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: that in order to sell right, you have to know 216 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: what is most appealing to people. So for me, I 217 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: would take a page out of Oh, I don't know 218 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: every single friggin Instagram, ad pusher, Facebook ad pusher, used 219 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: car salesman, what have you, which is appealing to nostalgia right? 220 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: For me? Do you know what I think would get 221 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: people back are commercials of showing them the pictures of 222 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: their old life, right, pictures of you being able to 223 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: just you know, go to the grocery store, pick up 224 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: your kid from school, attend a game, hug your friends, 225 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: like just a montage and say we are on our 226 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: way back to we are only halfway there, like this 227 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: is what we need to get you all the way there. 228 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: And I would pump those out in every single type 229 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: of commercial, Instagram, social media advertisement that appeals to people 230 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: for thirty five to sixty seconds, right with songs that 231 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: hit from each generation about like reconnecting with community and 232 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: re emerging from lockdown. Right. But the problem here is 233 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: that you have states like Florida, Texas, Tennessee and others 234 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: that never fully went down into lockdown and now they're 235 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: just going but gangbusters. And I want to know your 236 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: thought to Jonathan on where New York is and what 237 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: New York is getting ready to do in the next 238 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: two weeks on May nineteenth, with everything one hundred percent open, 239 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: and tell me you're feeling about that. But that is 240 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: how I believe that if I were in charge, how 241 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: I would start selling the vaccine. Okay, well, that's a 242 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: great answer. That's a beginning of an answer, because what 243 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: you're doing is you're putting yourself in the position out 244 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: of the seller, but of the consumer. Right in a 245 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: certain kind of way, which public health doesn't do. That's 246 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: my point here. Public health never does this. So you 247 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: just vaccinated half the resistant people because they looked and 248 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: they watched you know, the beach boys, and they got 249 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: it all nostalgic. And then the other half of the 250 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: people you have to actually understand what drives them. And 251 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: I have no expertise there. I'm just I've studied guns 252 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: for fifteen years and I've seen the gun control movement 253 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: below this point. That's why this is where my opinions 254 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: are coming from. But the other half of the people, 255 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: you've got to understand their catchwords. And maybe there's no 256 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: right answer here, but catchwords like liberty and freedom, and 257 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: so if it was me, it's part of it is 258 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: community and getting back to life. You'll get half the 259 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: people that way, but the other half, why don't you 260 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: take the liberty What about the vaccine liberty movement or 261 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: the vaccine freedom movement? You know, getting vaccinated is a 262 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: form of liberty. It's a way of sticking it to 263 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: the government. You can, you know, all these kinds of things. 264 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: So one of the words co opt their narrative and 265 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: then feed it back to them in a way that 266 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: serves your own goal. If your own goal is getting 267 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: everybody vaccinated, take their narrative and flip it back to them. 268 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you who does this really well, it's 269 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: the NRA, right, The NRA is now selling guns, calling 270 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: themselves a civil rights movement. You know, their ads now 271 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: are like, the police aren't going to protect you, buy 272 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: a gun because they're going to protect you. So they 273 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: take they take the tensions of the other side, they 274 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: identify them, and they flip them for their own purposes. 275 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: And it just frustrates me, Like, you know, didn't we 276 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: learn from mask that just appealing to public health and 277 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, it just it just it doesn't work for 278 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: half of people. And if our goal is to get 279 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: everybody involved, we should be taking the themes of the 280 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: other side and then flipping them for our own purposes. 281 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: And you know, again, I just think that that's better 282 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: than telling people like what the hell's wrong with you 283 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: or something? If our goal, again, our goal is strategically 284 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: to get everybody vaccinated. And so you know, again, I've 285 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: been thinking about this a lot because I study guns, right, 286 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: and the whole gun control movement is based on people 287 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: are dying, damn it. And it's true, people really really 288 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: are dying. But we've went hook like in line and 289 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: sinker for the public health model. But the people who 290 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: are selling guns, it's all about liberty and freedom and autonomy. 291 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: And so how come we can't take that and say 292 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: guns aren't liberty, you're chained to the gun industry or 293 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: something like that, like something that actually takes their theme 294 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: and flips it. But when we're just saying, oh, it's 295 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: a public health model, I just feel like it lets 296 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: the other side politicize science. And I guess the reason 297 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: I'm telling you this is because I see us doing 298 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: exactly the same thing here, you know, and there are 299 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: people way smarter than me doing this. But I will say, 300 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: having done a lot of focus groups, I just feel 301 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: like we're not speaking the language that people understand enough. 302 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: And really, what it does is it gives people like 303 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: the Santas and people like that total free reign to 304 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: never have to answer to their own people, right, So 305 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: that miss those descantists and Trump people are not looking 306 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: to They don't ask any questions, do you know what 307 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying? Like, I think, to me, what is the 308 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: scariest point of where we are is that those people 309 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: don't ask questions. They are just blind followers. Right. So 310 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: the Tucker Carlson's and the Trumps and the Descantists and 311 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: all of those people, they got vaccinated, right, Like, let's 312 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: all be one hundred percent clear that they all got vaccinated, 313 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: but are willingly telling their people not to. Right. But 314 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: the question is what price do they pay for them? 315 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: Right now, we make I mean, they don't pay any 316 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: price for them. And that's part of the issue, right, 317 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: there's no price. It's only benefit for them. They they've 318 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: monetized conflict, they've monetized polarization, they've monetized hate. So they 319 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: actually get rewarded, financially rewarded for positions that rip our 320 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: country in half. And the question is where is the 321 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: place where they pay a price for it? Right? Certainly 322 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: are I can see, oh that they pay a price 323 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: for it, But where are there certain other words, This 324 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: is just a totally cress stupid example. But vaccines, vaccine liberty, 325 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: vaccine freedom. Why is Tucker Carlson blocking your vaccine freedom? 326 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, something like that, like make him answer to 327 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: his base in the language that he's using. But just 328 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: flip it on its head. Again, this is just a 329 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: theory on my part, having studied you know what, I 330 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: feel like our unnecessary tensions between public health and popular opinion. 331 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: But I feel like we haven't done enough to counter 332 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: politicize public health in ways that answers this. So, how 333 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: come Tucker Carlson doesn't have to answer for blocking people's 334 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: vaccine freedom? You know something like that, you know, make 335 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: him answer, why are you blocking our American god given 336 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: liberty and chance to expand Medicaid? That's part of what 337 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: it means to be an American. You're blocking our healthcare freedom, 338 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. And I don't understand a 339 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: lot of people are working on this, but I'm just 340 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: saying that it's easy to fall into the trap of 341 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: like we're smart and they're dumb, because you know, who 342 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't get a vaccine for everything we've seen, right, it 343 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: seems so compensible. But I also think it's important to 344 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: disrupt these very racializing narratives in ways that make people 345 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: on the defensive, make them answer to their own constituencis. 346 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: I feel like we never do. I like this. I'm 347 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,959 Speaker 1: also on the hook for writing an op ed, and 348 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, maybe I go after Tucker Carlson, 349 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: which I haven't done for years. Part of the problem 350 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: I think that we're experiencing, particularly with this administration, is 351 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: that sometimes when you were steeped in too much goodness, 352 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: too much belief, that the American people are inherently good, right, 353 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: and that they just got distracted by the bad man Trump. 354 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: But as soon as the good people come in, then 355 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: they'll come back to their senses. And that I believe 356 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: is honestly the belief of this administration. Like, oh, they 357 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're right now out there in the streets 358 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: talking about how America is not a racist country, and 359 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, we don't get anywhere by continuing to lie. 360 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: We don't advance, we don't develop, we don't grow by 361 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: continuing a narrative that is a lie, right, And so 362 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: I believe that inherently they think that Americans, you know, 363 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: are this good, loving people, and so we're going to 364 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: use this a one size fits all type of strategy, 365 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: which is just about love of country, love of community, 366 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: love of self. And that's why you're getting the vaccine, 367 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: And isn't that why everybody's getting the vaccine? And the 368 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: reality is that, no, you have a group of people 369 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: who believe like wholeheartedly in science and that is what 370 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: has dictated their movements. Then you have people that are 371 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: just like, oooh, I'm on the fence, I'm getting misinformation. 372 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: I don't really know who to trust, and isn't the 373 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: healthcare industrial complex like all about money anyway? And what 374 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: is this really going to do for me? And then 375 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: you have other people that are just like, fuck this. 376 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: I'm an American. You don't get to tell me what 377 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: to do. So in a two year old tantrum, I'm 378 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: going to say, I'm not getting the vaccine because you 379 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: want me to get the vaccine and I don't like you. 380 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: So that's what I'm going to do. Listen. I mean, 381 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: I'm feeling very I'm feeling very counterpointy today, so I'm 382 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: going to push back on that, and I like counterpoint Jonathan. 383 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: And let me just say this. Imagine that our goal 384 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: is to get everybody vaccinated. That's our goal. Our goal 385 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: is not to say we're on the good side and 386 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: they're on the bad side. Our goal is to get 387 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: everybody vaccinated. How are you going to do that? Right? 388 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: Fox News figured this out and I figured this out 389 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: in the opposite But for our side, what's the best 390 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: way to get people to do that. It's not telling 391 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: people that they're dumb, are uneducated. That's not going to work. 392 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: It's just going to reinforce their idea that we're a 393 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: bunch of elites and they're a bunch of like everyday people. 394 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: So how can you use the material we have? I mean, 395 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: I personally feel like a minute we're arguing about whether 396 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: America is racist or not, if we're on that terrain, 397 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: we've already lost. We're lost because it's like it's like, great, 398 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: let's have that argument for the next nine thousand years. Uh. 399 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: And it's just you know, when we're on that battlefield, 400 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: it's the long battlefield for us. So there are ways 401 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: we can manipulate the system toward our own goals. We 402 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: just don't do it. I mean, if you want everybody 403 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: in the South to get vaccinated, go down there and 404 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: say you're just going to vaccinate black people. You know, 405 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: as one example, like oh my god, Like I say, 406 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: we have this great new vaccine, it's it's liberty and freedom, 407 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: but only black people can get it. Um, trust me, 408 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: you would solve the anti vax problem in fifteen minutes. 409 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: You know, something like that. So in other words, it's 410 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of like you're not paying attention to the 411 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: tensions of the other side, right, Yeah, in a way, 412 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: it's more like, oh, I'm good and I'm smart and 413 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: you're bad. Who wouldn't want it? And you know, it 414 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: does seem that way from from where we sit. But 415 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: I would also say that you're not you're not addressing 416 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: or entering or in some cases manipulating the system, and 417 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: it just opens the door for the kind of counter 418 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: manipulations that we see. I mean, Kentucky is a great example. 419 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: Kentucky early in the pandemic and a mark of genius 420 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: said we're going to use the pandemic to give health 421 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: insurance to every black citizen of our state. All of 422 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: a sudden, all these white people are like, wait, I 423 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: want I want health insurance. Also give me some health insurance. 424 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: Because what they recognize is like it's a it's a 425 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: zero sum kind of thing and you know that kind 426 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: of thing. And so what it is to recognize the 427 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: tension and instead of debating is Kentucky racist or not? Yeah, 428 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: Kentucky's racist, it said let's let's you know, let's take 429 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: this and figure out what end point we want if 430 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: our endpoint is everybody getting health insurance, and I feel 431 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: like we don't do that with the vaccine. It's you know, 432 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: and things like that. And so in a way, what 433 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: it does is it opens us up for this kind 434 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: of binary of either you're on the side of public 435 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: health or there's something wrong with you. And again, I 436 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: feel like we do the same thing with guns, with 437 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: everything else like that. It's kind of like wet it's 438 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: too we let the other side too easily manipulate the 439 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: distrust of science and authority, and then we just end 440 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: up having debates about well, of course doctor Fauci is 441 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: smart and all this kind of stuff. Like the matter 442 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: we're having those arguments were toats. We should be yep, 443 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: to be counterattacking in ways that are much more aggressive 444 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: and put the other side back on the heels. I 445 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: agree one hundred percent, Jonathan, and I think that understanding 446 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: where people are coming from and understanding who people really 447 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: are is the key to winning this. To your point, 448 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. If we had opened rolled out the 449 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: vaccination campaign with saying that the only people that we're 450 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: going to get vaccinated in the beginning, we're black and 451 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: brown people, my God, by the time that it had 452 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: gotten to the second tier. You're one hundred percent right. 453 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: They would have been with the pitchforks and all of 454 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: the ship that they had for the insurrection outside of 455 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: your local CBS and Walgreens in order to get the 456 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: vaccine that they thought was only going to be given 457 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: to black or brown people. And the problem here is 458 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: that we don't manipulate people in the right way because 459 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: that is part of our virtue of being democrats and 460 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 1: thinking that like you're going to you're going to have 461 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: this one size fits all approach and not admitting to 462 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: the fact that, yeah, in order to use that strategy, 463 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: you would have to understand and believe white people in 464 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: some respects in some areas that the country are inherently racist. Right, 465 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: So appeal to that also, that they're actors acting on 466 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: a certain set of belief systems that are different from 467 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: our own belief systems. Right. In other words, we often 468 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: assume that they are irrational actors, and they're not. They're 469 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: acting based on a set of beliefs they happen to 470 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: not be the ones we believe in. Right, we're not racist, 471 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: but it's not like they're acting randomly, right. I think 472 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: that's that's also part of the issue. So you know, 473 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: before I was we should have the vaccine ad be um. 474 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: If you have a four hour erection from the vaccine, 475 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: see your doctor immediately. That would get a lot of 476 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: people to get the vaccine. But I just think, you 477 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: know what I mean, we're not strategic enough about like 478 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: tapping into people's beliefs, anxieties, concerns, while the other side 479 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: is doing that as right, and so it's not let's 480 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: just be clear, I'm not saying the other side is evil. 481 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm saying that people are acting based on belief systems 482 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,959 Speaker 1: and we don't take that into account when it's just like, 483 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: oh damn it, Jim, I'm a scientist, you know that 484 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: kind of thing. That's our side, and so we never 485 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: we never put people like Tucker Carlson on their heels. 486 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: They never have to answer for how come they're getting 487 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: the vaccine and we're not, like, we never do that, 488 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: and so in a way, we never turn those belief 489 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: systems into liabilities for the other side, which is what 490 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: I think we should be doing more. You know, Jonathan, 491 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: as always, you have given us a lot to think 492 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: about today. So we navigate where we're headed. If we're 493 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: just going to live with the coronavirus for the rest 494 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: of our lives because of the population is in a 495 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: place of refusal, and then what does that mean? What 496 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: does that mean for the UK variant, the India variants, 497 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: is South African variant, the New York variant, the California 498 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: But what does that mean? And for me, actually, the 499 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: last thing that I do want to ask you because 500 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: I think that it's important because of where we are. 501 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: You and I in New York. What are your thoughts 502 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: on the May nineteenth, New York City is back and 503 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: it's summer in New York and everything is open. I 504 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: think this is a move to try to save the economy, 505 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, I need just to be honest. I think 506 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: that what we're seeing is way too many businesses going 507 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: out of business, So many restaurants are closing, and so 508 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: I think right now, I still think it's important to 509 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: keep the message as much as we can. The vaccinations 510 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: and social distancing and doing things outside whenever you can, 511 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: and washing your hands, those things are still really important. 512 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: But without tourism, New York is in big trouble, right, 513 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: stuff like that, and so in a way. I just 514 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: think it's an acknowledgement that there's a lot of tourism 515 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: in Texas and Florida and our economy is really going 516 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: to be in big trouble if we don't catch it up. 517 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: But I still think that as much as New York 518 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: can continue with and social distancing matters and eat outside 519 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: whenever you possibly can, and wash your hands and all 520 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: these kind of things, those things are still really important. 521 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: And so if we can demonstrate a kind of socially 522 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: responsible reopening, I mean, I realized that's a big thing, 523 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: and not a reopening that then people turn and say, 524 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: and therefore, what do I care about? Public health? Then 525 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: will be okay. Now the issue is, of course, the coronavirus, 526 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: among other things, is obviously very seasonal, and so the 527 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: summer should be okay depending on how this goes. But 528 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: in the fall and the winter, what I'm saying the 529 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: key is getting as many people baccinated as possible. That's 530 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: really the key right now, because when the thing starts 531 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: on the fall, the more people vaccinated, the better off, 532 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: the better off we're going to be. And so you know, 533 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: I understand it's a balance. It's not like, oh, public 534 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: health of monthside and the economy on the other. They're related, 535 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: and I get that. So I hope that people in 536 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: New York also remember that all the other stuff is 537 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: still true. And if you don't believe that, just turn 538 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: on the news any night. So it's it's got to 539 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: be all of those things. But again, I just think 540 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,479 Speaker 1: that you know, you just you know, it's a balance 541 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: of the pandemic and the economy in our system. Jonathan, 542 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: as always, thank you so much for a robust conversation. 543 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: I liked our tit for tat today. This is actually 544 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: very helpful. Well, and again we have to remember our goal. 545 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: It's not to virtue signal. Our goal is to get 546 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: as many people to get the vaccine as humanly possible. 547 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: And to do that, imagine you're a salesperson. I mean, 548 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: that's really that's what I tell people when I speak 549 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: to public health audiences. Don't think about it as just yours. 550 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: You You have brilliant, world changing science on your side, 551 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: but that's not enough. Imagine you're a salesperson. What are 552 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: you going to do? Yeah? Until next week, Jonathan, stay safe, 553 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: stay healthy. If you want to share your thoughts about 554 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: my conversation, with Jonathan or have your own perspective on 555 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: the fight to get Americans vaccinated. Get at me on 556 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: Twitter at D two cents d e E two c 557 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: e nts, and once again, if you want to hear 558 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: more in depth conversations five days a week every week, 559 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: you can join the Woke a F Nation on Patreon 560 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash woke af. I would love 561 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: to see you in the comments over there as well. 562 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 563 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.