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Speaker 1: Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number three

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Speaker 1: forty six, and today in the show, I am joined

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Speaker 1: by Arkansas Hunter content creator in Modern mountain Man philosopher

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Speaker 1: Clay Newcomb to discuss Southern deer, Canadian bucks, and bears.

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Speaker 1: All Right, welcome to the wire Hunt Podcast, brought to

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Speaker 1: you by on X. Today's guest is Clay Newcombe, and

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to have him here with me today because

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Speaker 1: I think, giving these times, these these trying times here

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Speaker 1: during spring of um it's it's kind of nice to

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Speaker 1: just switch it up a little bit. While there's something

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Speaker 1: to be said about normalcy, there's also something to being

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Speaker 1: said for taking your mind off of some of the

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Speaker 1: more negative things around you, and I think our conversation

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Speaker 1: today can help us do that. Um Man. I just

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Speaker 1: want you all to know before we get into it, though,

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Speaker 1: that I am thinking about all of you, praying for you,

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Speaker 1: hoping the very best for you and your family. I

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Speaker 1: hope you're healthy. I hope I hope you're able to

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Speaker 1: keep the bills paid, keep food on the table. Um,

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Speaker 1: you as a community mean a ton to me, and UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just hope that we can all push

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Speaker 1: through this and come out the other side, healthy, happy,

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Speaker 1: and uh doing as best as we possibly can. I'm

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Speaker 1: really just pulling for everyone. Stick with it. UM. I

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Speaker 1: believe in you. Whatever struggle you might be going through

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Speaker 1: right now. UM, if you're part of the wire hunt community,

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Speaker 1: you've got you've got a lot going for you. So

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Speaker 1: that said, I do hope this podcast can help you

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Speaker 1: take your mind off of whatever negativity might be out

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Speaker 1: there right now, whether it's just the news or whether

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Speaker 1: it's some kind of challenger going through yourself. This podcast,

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Speaker 1: I think can put a smile on your face because

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Speaker 1: Clay Newcome is an interesting dude, a fun guy, a

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Speaker 1: great person to talk to. Uh. It's probably likely you're

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Speaker 1: familiar with Clay, but if you're not yet, I think

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Speaker 1: you will. He's making a great name for himself within

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Speaker 1: the hunting community. He's a damn good hunter. He's got

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Speaker 1: his head on a swivel. He approaches his his hunting

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Speaker 1: and how he shares his hunting message. I think in

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Speaker 1: a thoughtful manner, and he's just a great storyteller. So

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Speaker 1: from my perspective, those are good traits for human being

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Speaker 1: and and maybe even better for a podcast guest. So

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Speaker 1: Clay Clay lives down in the mountains, Arkansas, where he's

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Speaker 1: an avid hunter of all sorts of species. He chases

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Speaker 1: coons with hounds, he hunts squirrels in the back of

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Speaker 1: a mule, and he's of course hunting turkeys and deer

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Speaker 1: and bears all across the country. He's a very serious

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Speaker 1: avid deer hunter, but maybe even more so when it

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Speaker 1: comes to bears. He is the owner of Bear Hunting Magazine.

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Speaker 1: He's the host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. He's

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Speaker 1: the creator of the Bear Horizon YouTube series. And he's

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Speaker 1: also the subject of a terrific new film put together

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Speaker 1: by our friends over at First Life, documenting Clay's unique

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Speaker 1: hunting lifestyle and philosophies. And in that film, a friend

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Speaker 1: of Clay's describes him as a cross between Robert Frost,

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Speaker 1: although Leopold and Andy Griffith. So, I mean, how can

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Speaker 1: you not want to chat with a guy with that

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Speaker 1: kind of lead up? So that's exactly what I got

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Speaker 1: to do. I enjoyed it. I think you will. It

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Speaker 1: was everything I was hoping it might be. We discussed

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Speaker 1: Clay's thoughts on the sacredness of hunting. We talked about

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Speaker 1: the trials and tribulations of raising an outdoor family. We

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Speaker 1: discussed Southern deer hunting culture, Southern deer hunting tactics, UH,

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Speaker 1: trophy hunting, what that is? What that isn't all the

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Speaker 1: stigma around it. We talked about chasing big bucks up

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Speaker 1: in Canada, some of the trips he's done up into

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Speaker 1: the Great White North. We discuss the appeal of bear hunting,

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Speaker 1: Clay's pitch to all of us to why we should

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Speaker 1: give bear hunting a shot. We discussed eating bears, and

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Speaker 1: just a whole lot more. This one was was a

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Speaker 1: fun change of pace. Like I said, I think you're

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Speaker 1: gonna enjoy it. I can't wait for you to give

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Speaker 1: it a listen. So, without further ado, I hope you're well,

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Speaker 1: stay safe, and let's get into my chat with Clay Newcomb.

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Speaker 1: All right with me on the other side of the

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Speaker 1: line today, I've got Clay Newcome. Welcome to show. Clay, Hey, Mark,

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Speaker 1: appreciate you making the time to do this. Um I've

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Speaker 1: been kind of keeping tabs on the stuff you've been

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Speaker 1: putting out there on the web for a number of

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Speaker 1: years now and have enjoyed what I've seen. But we

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Speaker 1: haven't really got to spend much time chatting. Uh not

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Speaker 1: in person this time, but you know, getting to have

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Speaker 1: a longer conversation. So I'm glad we can finally do this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my pleasure. Man. You know, we bumped into each other

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Speaker 1: at a t A. I don't know if you remember that,

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Speaker 1: but just for a brief handshake. But that's uh, that's

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Speaker 1: about it. And no, yeah, it's good to finally connect

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Speaker 1: with you for sure. It's funny that in this kind

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Speaker 1: of digital world we live in, you can almost no

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Speaker 1: feel like you know someone just by watching their stuff

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Speaker 1: or listening to their podcasts, or reading their things or

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Speaker 1: following them on social media, and then when you bump

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Speaker 1: into each other in person that one time, it's like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: how you doing. You think you're old friends? Um, I

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Speaker 1: hadn't happened at a t A. All the time you

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Speaker 1: see someone and and you're chatting for a while, and

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you realize, oh, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't think we've ever met in person. The weird

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Speaker 1: thing these days. But but you know, I got to

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Speaker 1: thinking about you recently. Um, You've been on my list

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Speaker 1: of folks that I should talk to for a while,

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Speaker 1: but I was reminded to reach out to you recently

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Speaker 1: because of that very cool film that our buddies over

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Speaker 1: at First Light produced, Um talking about your story. And

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Speaker 1: I think I'm right about this. It was the boys

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Speaker 1: that captured creative that that did all that right. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So Jordan's Riley came down along with Ford van Fawson,

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Speaker 1: he for works for First Light, and they were here

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Speaker 1: in Arkansas for I think four days in February of

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, so it was over a year ago that

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Speaker 1: they shot that and uh, yeah, it was. It was

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Speaker 1: really fun having them here and and shooting the video

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Speaker 1: was just it was it was a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I didn't really know what to expect from

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Speaker 1: that film because they they came down at kind of

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Speaker 1: a time when not a lot was going on. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, late February here are deer seasons are still

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Speaker 1: going on, Our squirrel seasons are our coon seasons, which

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Speaker 1: that's all stuff that I'm doing. And uh, and they

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Speaker 1: kind of just said, well, that's what we want to do.

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Speaker 1: And um, so I was super pleased with the I mean,

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Speaker 1: Jordan and those guys, they'd have a hard time not

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Speaker 1: making anybody look good. So I gotta give them a

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Speaker 1: lot of credit for telling the story. But but but

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Speaker 1: I was in my family is what was as well

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Speaker 1: my wife was that we were thrilled that they kind

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Speaker 1: of captured what they did in the sense of the

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Speaker 1: balance and families and you know, I talked about a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that wasn't on the film, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, and you know how these films are made,

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Speaker 1: or maybe people do, maybe they don't, but I mean

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of content that's captured and and really

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Speaker 1: very little that's used. And so I was drilled with

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Speaker 1: the way with the way it turned out, and uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been really fun. So, um, I gotta tell you

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Speaker 1: you and I are in a similar boat. And so

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Speaker 1: I know, you know, you must be not quite as

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Speaker 1: eloquent and intelligent and as good of a hunter as

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Speaker 1: they make you look in that film, because I say

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Speaker 1: that because captured creative produced and edited my show back

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Speaker 1: forty and I'm not as eloquent or good at a

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Speaker 1: hunter as they make me. Look, those guys are are

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Speaker 1: really good at what they do. So I do know

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Speaker 1: that there's there's a little bit of movie magic there,

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Speaker 1: but the the the essence, the foundation has got to

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Speaker 1: be true. So that's uh, that points to you being

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Speaker 1: a very interesting individual. Based off of that film, Clay

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Speaker 1: was it was well done, and you obviously have have

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Speaker 1: a great outdoor lifestyle that you've developed for yourself and

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Speaker 1: your family. Um, and that really that really intrigued me

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Speaker 1: to to learn more about that. And something I've heard

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Speaker 1: you talk about, uh and in a couple of different places,

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Speaker 1: is about this idea of of the sacredness of the pursuit.

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Speaker 1: I think is is a way maybe you would put it. Um,

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Speaker 1: can you just speak to me about why you feel

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Speaker 1: that way about hunting and this this lifestyle you cultivated

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Speaker 1: for yourself? Um, why do you think about it in

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Speaker 1: terms like that? You know? I had a guy I

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Speaker 1: was I was talking to a guy last week from

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Speaker 1: East Tennessee in I was talking to him about why

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Speaker 1: that I we were talking about this old man, this

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Speaker 1: old Mount Tennessee mountain hunter, and we had just interviewed

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Speaker 1: him and I went back so as a younger man

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Speaker 1: and me and this older man. When me and the

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Speaker 1: younger man came back, I said, why, why was that

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Speaker 1: important that we just talked to this old guy that

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Speaker 1: to us had lived in extraordinary life as a mountain

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Speaker 1: hunter in East Tennessee. And he said, he said, what

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Speaker 1: makes life worth living is that some things are just sacred.

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Speaker 1: Some things are just set apart as things that we

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Speaker 1: deeply value, and they could be nuanced things that maybe

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Speaker 1: somebody else wouldn't understand. And to me, hunting has just

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Speaker 1: always been that. I feel like that inside of hunters,

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Speaker 1: there is this sense of sacred nous inside of of

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Speaker 1: all of us. Some people it's really strong. Other people

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Speaker 1: that people it might be, it might be less, but

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Speaker 1: it just reflects our our value system. I was sitting

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Speaker 1: with an old We interviewed an old Tennessee mountain bear

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Speaker 1: hunter a couple of months ago, and I was with

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Speaker 1: It was two guys. It was me and another guy

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Speaker 1: interviewing this old guy. And we talked to this guy

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Speaker 1: and and it really lived in extraordinary life just hunting

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Speaker 1: the mountains. To him, it was just a normal life,

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Speaker 1: and to his peers it was just a normal life.

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Speaker 1: And but to us, you know, he was talking about

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Speaker 1: the old days and the way they hunted and it

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Speaker 1: was extraordinary. And I asked my buddy, I said, why

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Speaker 1: after the fact, Mark, I asked him, I said, why

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Speaker 1: was that valuable what we just did and what we

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Speaker 1: learned from this guy? Because he didn't he didn't teach

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Speaker 1: us anything. I mean, he didn't, he didn't. He didn't

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Speaker 1: teach us something that we didn't know about bear hunting.

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Speaker 1: But and uh, my buddy Tracy said, he said, some

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Speaker 1: things are just sacred and that sacredness is what makes

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Speaker 1: life worth living. And it was it was so simple,

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Speaker 1: and the way that he said it, it was just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that what that man's life and what he did in

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Speaker 1: the mountains because of what I value is sacred to

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Speaker 1: me to to honor that and and you know, basically,

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Speaker 1: what we regard as sacred reflects our value system. And

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Speaker 1: I know that ever since I was a kid. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's been nothing in my life that held the same

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Speaker 1: places as hunting. And as you would know, and as

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Speaker 1: we would know as as hunters, that's not just killing,

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Speaker 1: but it's the lifestyle, it's the culture, it's the people.

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Speaker 1: You know, Hunting is really a whole lot more about

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Speaker 1: people than we give it credit for, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: without without peers, without those deep human relationships, hunting actually

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Speaker 1: loses a lot of value. And even when you go

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Speaker 1: to the foundations of hunting, hunting is about provision for family.

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Speaker 1: At the very core essence of what it means for

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Speaker 1: a person to go out and harvest protein and bring

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Speaker 1: it back is about this provision, It's about this relationship.

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Speaker 1: It's about people. And that's what I keep going back to.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really interested in hunting culture and how

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Speaker 1: hunting has shaped our culture and really how hunting shapes people.

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Speaker 1: And I think, like on a personal journey, that's what

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Speaker 1: I am interested in, is how has hunting shaped my

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Speaker 1: life because it has in in in deep ways that

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Speaker 1: are hard to even communicate about sometimes. But but and

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Speaker 1: and on the on a very practical level, like actually

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Speaker 1: pursuing wild game, that challenge is so primitive, so innate

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Speaker 1: to human nature, that to do that in in a modern, urbanized,

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Speaker 1: civilized society is just such a rare human privilege that

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Speaker 1: I think we have this window, this gateway back into

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Speaker 1: really who we are as humans. And I think that

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Speaker 1: makes us different. I think that makes us inside of

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Speaker 1: modern society being functional, normal humans. It makes us something different,

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Speaker 1: and I think it, you know, I think it makes

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Speaker 1: us better humans. I think it makes me a better worker.

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Speaker 1: I think it makes me a better husband. I think

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Speaker 1: it makes me a better father if it's handled right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, anything that we're passionate about can be

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Speaker 1: blown out of proportion and actually messes up our life

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Speaker 1: in anything. But if it's if it's handled right, I

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Speaker 1: think that that passion and things that we value, which

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Speaker 1: in our case is hunting, makes us better people. So

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Speaker 1: how do you pass along this this value system, or

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Speaker 1: this this sense of sacredness that you have for for

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Speaker 1: wild places and wildlife and and and way that these

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Speaker 1: experiences have shaped you and made you a better person.

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Speaker 1: How do you personally go about trying to pass that

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Speaker 1: on to your family, to your children? Because I have

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Speaker 1: I've got a young family, have a two year old

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Speaker 1: and a two month old. Now this is something I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about a lot these days. Um, how do you

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Speaker 1: how do you how's that part of your life? Because

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Speaker 1: because it seems like families are in a very important

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Speaker 1: thing for you. Yeah, that's a fantastic question, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's the answer. That really the whole hunting community

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Speaker 1: is looking for. And you know, I think that more

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Speaker 1: than we could ever teach our kids, and this would

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Speaker 1: be with any kind of value system in our life. Really,

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Speaker 1: they become some reflection of who we are. So to me,

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Speaker 1: the best way that I have transferred, you know, a

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Speaker 1: love for the outdoors hunting to my children has just

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Speaker 1: been them observing the my life and and and being

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Speaker 1: actively involved in it very purposefully. But I guess what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is more than what we teach them,

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Speaker 1: it's who we are that influences them. And uh, and

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Speaker 1: it has come you know, my kids, Mark, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: forty years old. We started having kids when we're pretty young.

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Speaker 1: My oldest daughter is eighteen. So I've got eighteen year old,

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old, fourteen year old, and twelve year old

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Speaker 1: and um, all of them have been involved in hunting.

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Speaker 1: My oldest is not as interested anymore, but the three

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Speaker 1: younger are are are very interested in hunting, and UM

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Speaker 1: and I have I have made a diligent effort over

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Speaker 1: the years to include them in almost everything I possibly could.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I drug them around when my other buddies

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Speaker 1: weren't dragging around their kids. And I think that's to

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Speaker 1: be noted, is is there is a sacrifice for anything,

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Speaker 1: you know. But at the same time, I've I've always

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Speaker 1: had plenty of time for hunting myself and and take

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Speaker 1: it serious. You know. The idea is that if you

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Speaker 1: took a kid, it would be less serious or you

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Speaker 1: might be less successful. And I've I've always been very

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Speaker 1: focused on success in terms of bagging game, I really have.

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Speaker 1: But I've also been very focused on giving them the

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Speaker 1: most possible exposure that they could. And so I think

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Speaker 1: they got to see authenticity inside the parents and really

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Speaker 1: see their heart and their true genuine love and passion

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Speaker 1: and respect. But they also have to be given the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And it goes back to even beyond the relationship in

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Speaker 1: the hunting world. If your kids don't like being around

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Speaker 1: you because you're a jerk, uh, they're not gonna probably

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Speaker 1: want to be around you when you're hunting and have

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Speaker 1: a good time, do you know what to uh? And uh?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's where some people miss it is there.

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Speaker 1: You know, the kids get up twelve and fourteen and

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Speaker 1: they all of a sudden realized they need to get

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Speaker 1: them involved in hunting, and a lot of the groundwork

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Speaker 1: hadn't been done, and so of you know, I think

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Speaker 1: it's a holistic picture of provide them that opportunity and

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Speaker 1: and just be an authentic just having an authentic relationship

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Speaker 1: with your kids. You know, there's this this inherent catch

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Speaker 1: twenty two or or or there's this this risk factor

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Speaker 1: I think in taking your kids out with you for

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Speaker 1: all these things, taking them along for all these adventures.

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Speaker 1: I'm making assumptions here, but I'm imagining there's this there's

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Speaker 1: this always potential for them to see something or experience something,

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Speaker 1: or see you in a moment where hunting or you

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Speaker 1: or this whole thing isn't as pretty as you want

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Speaker 1: to be, you know what I mean. They're something went

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Speaker 1: wrong or where you made a mistake, or where you know,

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Speaker 1: it could be any number of things. But is there

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Speaker 1: any moment like that, or any mistake made or regret

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Speaker 1: you have when you look back at your eighteen years

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Speaker 1: as a father taking your children out there with you,

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Speaker 1: that you wish, man, I wish it could have taken

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Speaker 1: that back, or I wish they hadn't seen that, or

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Speaker 1: or is it all for a reason? Did it all

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Speaker 1: work out? Okay, you know, man, I've I've certainly made

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Speaker 1: some mistakes, you know, Mark, I my father and I don't.

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Speaker 1: I have no problem talking about this because he's heard

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Speaker 1: me say it before. But my father, I call it

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Speaker 1: the Gary Newcomb School of hunting hard knocks. There were

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Speaker 1: three brothers and I was the only one that passed.

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Speaker 1: My My two brothers are not big hunters. They're great

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Speaker 1: guys and I love them. They're not big hunters. They

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Speaker 1: like to do some fish and stuff. And my dad

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Speaker 1: was just a little bit too probably hard on us.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't really, it wasn't because he was a jerk.

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Speaker 1: It was just because his hunting time was so limited

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Speaker 1: that when he hunted, he had to be super serious

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Speaker 1: about it. And so I could have been burned from

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Speaker 1: hunting because I had some really negative experiences as a kid. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The first time I ever deer hunted, Mark, I was

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Speaker 1: actually bow hunting. I was in the fourth grade. I

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Speaker 1: could pull them weight limit, and uh, my dad took

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Speaker 1: me out, put me up in a tree stand, you know,

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Speaker 1: hour before dark, and I was scared to death and

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Speaker 1: uh and actually I mean cried. I mean as a

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Speaker 1: fourth grader and uh it was a very traumatic experience

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Speaker 1: for me. It's a nine year old and uh, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of and and and my dad got

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Speaker 1: upset with me, and uh that could have pushed me away.

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Speaker 1: And luckily just I mean I just kind of had

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Speaker 1: a fire forward and it didn't quite extinguish it. But

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Speaker 1: so I grew up with this idea that hey, you

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Speaker 1: could you could hurt these kids if you're not careful.

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Speaker 1: So it's this fine line between making it enjoyable but

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Speaker 1: also not taking away the challenge. And I think the

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Speaker 1: trend of parenthood right now is to take away the

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Speaker 1: challenge and difficulty out of your kid's life and make

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Speaker 1: them happy. And that trend is not sustainable for for

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Speaker 1: making good humans. I mean, so you but but also

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Speaker 1: a father, a parent has to have a sense of

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Speaker 1: where that individual child is at, how much challenge they

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Speaker 1: can take and they want to take for the maturity

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Speaker 1: level that they have, and building a hunt for them,

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Speaker 1: you know. So you know, there's been lots of times

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Speaker 1: we you know, I mean, we used to buy snacks

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Speaker 1: and drinks and you know, kind of make it easy.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time we might have had the

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Speaker 1: challenge of walking a long way or staying out in

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Speaker 1: the rain, and and I I made that honorable. My

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Speaker 1: my my son who's fourteen now, his name is Bear. Uh.

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Speaker 1: When he was six, I believe he was six years old.

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Speaker 1: I decided to take him with me on the first

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Speaker 1: day of Arkansas bear season and let him sit the

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Speaker 1: tree stand with me. We got in the stand and

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Speaker 1: we set for six hours in a lock on tree stand.

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Speaker 1: He was right beside me, had him strapped in, and

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Speaker 1: it started to rain about three hours before dark, and

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Speaker 1: it rained until dark, and uh, i' and he toughed

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Speaker 1: it out, and he basically we made that so honorable

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Speaker 1: to him that to this day he grins when my

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Speaker 1: dad or James Lawrence, the guy that we were hunting

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Speaker 1: with as well, UH, talks about how how he struggled

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Speaker 1: through that as a little kid. And and so we

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Speaker 1: we made the struggle honorable. You know, Yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 1: I can definitely see see the appeal or the I

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Speaker 1: see how that would work. And I've always thought about that,

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Speaker 1: that same fine line you have to walk between seeing

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Speaker 1: hunting is something that you want to make fun for

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Speaker 1: your kids versus seeing hunting is something that is a

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Speaker 1: tool for personal development and a friend of mine had

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Speaker 1: had to always talk to me about how you know,

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Speaker 1: an important thing for kids to learn, especially throughout door activities,

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Speaker 1: is the ability to become comfortable with discomfort. And I

385
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Speaker 1: think that's great. But at the same time, you always

386
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Speaker 1: hear these horror stories about how someone made it too

387
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Speaker 1: miserable for their kids and now they never want to

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Speaker 1: do it. So I think your experience, your experience and example,

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Speaker 1: there's helpful. Um, when you're when you're thinking about all this,

390
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Speaker 1: we're talking about all these things, it seems like you

391
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Speaker 1: you value history. It seems like both in our conversation

392
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Speaker 1: already and then justin seeing some of the work you've

393
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Speaker 1: put out there into the world, there's this awareness of

394
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Speaker 1: the context that you're now part of both you know,

395
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Speaker 1: in our current space today and historically. Um, what where

396
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Speaker 1: does this increment? I'm wrong on that, But where's this

397
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Speaker 1: come from? What? What inspired you? Whether where their books

398
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: or films or people, anything that has stoked this fire

399
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Speaker 1: within you to to live a life like this? Can

400
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Speaker 1: you point to anything or is it just your dad

401
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: and in habit stance? You know? I think to not

402
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: understand where we have come from as hunters is and

403
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Speaker 1: to just participate kind of blindly inside of this to

404
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Speaker 1: me kind of personally felt a little bit irresponsible. And

405
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: so that's kind of my curiosity and intrigue about our

406
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: past and and and I'm I'm really intrigued about um.

407
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: I mean, what I think is interesting in people is

408
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: a deep connection to place. And so I'm really interested

409
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: in in Arkansas and hunting here in the Ozarks and Washingtalls,

410
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: as well as lots of other places. But just because

411
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: I live here, like I go out in these mountains

412
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Speaker 1: and hunt deer and bear and turkey, and there's just this.

413
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Speaker 1: I mean, I just know I'm not the first one

414
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Speaker 1: that's done this, and a lot of the ways that

415
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: I think have been influenced by people that have come

416
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Speaker 1: before me. And and so I just really enjoy learning

417
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: about um learn about those are history and those are

418
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: hunting and kind of where we came from, because I

419
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Speaker 1: think what we're trying to do mark as a hunting

420
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: culture really and whether people realize this or not, and

421
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: and some people wouldn't care, but I know inside the

422
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: hunting industry, we're trying to define our relevance in a

423
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Speaker 1: modern time, you know, And it's easy to define the

424
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: hunter's relevance in times past, and so I think we're

425
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: trying to figure out, like why are we still relevant?

426
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Speaker 1: And and maybe I have a little bit of a

427
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: persecution mentality being involved in the bare world so much

428
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: because it is a it's kind of the low hanging

429
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: fruit for the anti hunting community. So we we received

430
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Speaker 1: kind of a lot of uh persecution, maybe a little

431
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: bit hot of a word, but probably accurate. Um. So

432
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, we're just trying to find define our relevance.

433
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: And I think that comes from our history, and you know,

434
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: from a practical sense, like me liking traditional bows and

435
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: mules and stuff. I think that's just a maybe a

436
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: result of um just growing up in rural Arkansas. What's

437
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: funny is that my dad hates traditional boats. I mean

438
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: he's just like, why would you do that? Why would

439
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: you go backwards? Why would you limit yourself so much?

440
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: So I didn't really get that from him, but it

441
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: may be kind of one of the old father's son

442
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: pendulum swing bills, you know, um where where he likes something.

443
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: So not to spite him, but just because traditional archery

444
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: was something new and U and you know, we didn't

445
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: grow up with mules and stuff. But my dad always

446
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: kind of thought mules were cool and and and because

447
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: I've looked deep and decide why I like mules and

448
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff so much. Anyway, I think he

449
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: really honored that kind of stuff in the in the

450
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: culture he saw around him. But he he was never

451
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: into that kind of stuff really. Um, he was in

452
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: the back country hunting. He hunted a lot in the

453
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: back country in Arkansas. And UM, I don't I hope

454
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: that answers your question, mark, Yeah, it does, But it

455
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: gives me another question, which is is how do you

456
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: answer that existential issue that you just described that we're

457
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: all facing within the hunting world, which is which is

458
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: our relevance? If if someone were to walk up to

459
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: you today and say, the stuff that you're doing, the

460
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: stuff that your whole world now revolves around, that you're

461
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: teaching your kids, that you make a living from, how

462
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: is that still relevant today? Wake up, man, look at

463
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: the world around you. You're a relic of the past.

464
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: How do you how do you respond to that? Well?

465
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: I think there's two two answers right off the bat,

466
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: is that historical precedents does matter in human cultures. I mean,

467
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: in in biological precedence. I mean, we are predators. I

468
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: mean that's a strong argument. We eat meat to stay healthy.

469
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: That's a massively strong argument. And then you get into

470
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: the ethics of using animal confinement protein versus a wild

471
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: animal protein, and you know, you can go down that trail.

472
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: But to me, the the lynch pin and I like

473
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: that word. I've kind of been uh I used it

474
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: just the other day. I've used it before, but I

475
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: actually looked it up to make sure it meant what

476
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: I thought it meant. I've been there for I've done that.

477
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: The A lynch pin is is something that is vital

478
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: to an enterprise or an organization. And in the literal sense,

479
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: a lynch pen is a is a pen that's put

480
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: through the end of an axle to keep the wheel

481
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: on an axle. The lynchpin to meet of our relevance

482
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: is an understanding of the North American male of wildlife

483
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: conservation and how because of hunting, not in spite of hunting,

484
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: that we have the most robust big game populations in

485
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: the world here in North America, despite urban sprawl, despite uh,

486
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: modern civilization. I mean, so to me, that is our

487
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: relevance is that, Hey, what we've been doing for the

488
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: last hundred years, has worked to preserve wild places and

489
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: to uh and to preserve wildlife. And man, that's why

490
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: we're relevant. And and then and then because that's a

491
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: real functional relevance. I mean, like, really, really, if somebody

492
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: understood that. Now, people most of the time that aren't

493
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: interested won't listen long enough to truly understand it because

494
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: it's complex. I mean, it's it's weird to say we

495
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: are killing animals in order to save them. You know,

496
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: that's kind of an odd shaped pill. But you know,

497
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. That's what I

498
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: like to say, is that it is an odd shaped pill.

499
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: But if you listen long enough, it's I mean North

500
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: American model. And I've been reading this book by Vlarious

501
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: Geist and Shane Mahoney. Uh. Ben O'Brien did a podcast

502
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: with Larious Guist. Incredible, incredible book and as far as

503
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: I know, it's the first and most robust piece of

504
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: literature that specs out all the all the parts of

505
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: the North American model. And and uh so that's kind

506
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: of fresh on my mind. But that's our relevance, is

507
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: that it's working to say wild places and animals and

508
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: to feed people healthy organic protein like we've been eating

509
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: for the last bazillion years. Yeah, so so I'm to

510
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: keep on throwing on some devil's advocate or a typical

511
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: response you might hear from someone who has an ever

512
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: serial position to this um might be, well, you can

513
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: say that, but all you guys really care about is

514
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: this stuff that you can shoot. Or you say that,

515
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: but then you look at another it is a wildlife

516
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: like a wolf or a coyote, and all you want

517
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: to do is shoot, shovel and shut up and get

518
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: rid of them because they're killing your deer. Uh, how

519
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: do you respond to that? You know, that's one of

520
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: the criticisms of the North American model is that it

521
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: has not taken into account non game species. And but

522
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: to me, that actually proves our point even more. You know,

523
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: I mean, where animals are hunted, they're valued, and that

524
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: value produces protection and management and those animals doing well

525
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: in modern times. And so for someone to say, well, yeah,

526
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: but what about you know, the songbird that's you know,

527
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: being endangered right now and this habitat that's being tore up, Uh,

528
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: I mean I would say, well, maybe we should start

529
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: a hunting season for that songbird because then they probably

530
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: do better. That's a joke, uh, but really that's the

531
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: that's the lad um And you know, I would just say,

532
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: that's really the depth that I could go into that

533
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: mark is that I would say, you have just proven

534
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: my point. So yeah, sure, we've not dedicated our lives

535
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: to saving this animal or that animal, but we have

536
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: dedicated our lives to save in these you know, these

537
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: twenty nine big game species and all the small game

538
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: species rabbit, squirrels, quail, turkey, and and look how they're thriving,

539
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, it's a strong it's a strong

540
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: foundation to stand on. And I think you can always

541
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: point to the fact that most of those species are

542
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: you know what, what's often referred to as keystone species.

543
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: So as long as if those are protected, then you

544
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 1: have this trickle down effect that positively influences so many others.

545
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: So but yeah, that's these these are the questions that

546
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: we're getting asked all the time now and probably even

547
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: more so every decade from here forward. Right, So it's

548
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: it's good that there's people like you thinking about this stuff,

549
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you've got a platform to to share

550
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: your perspective because I think it's a good one. It's

551
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: a helpful one. Um. I think we need, you know,

552
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: the broader hunting community. I mean, Mark, think about it.

553
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: You know, back in the well, I mean, it would

554
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: have been kind of before our time. But like back

555
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: in the seventies, nobody would have known a thing about

556
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: white tail deer in terms of the level of knowledge

557
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: that we have today about their biology and their needs

558
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: and how they're managed and all these different aspects of

559
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: white tail deer hunting. But today, the average white tail

560
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: hunter probably could take a test, a written test and

561
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: get more answers right about deer, every aspect of deer

562
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: then even the experts could in the seventies, you know.

563
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: And and what happened was there was a cultural shift.

564
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: Media started focusing on white tails and this this is

565
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: a great thing. And and then all of a sudden,

566
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: thirty years later, we have this general based knowledge that's

567
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: really high. I think that's what's got to happen for

568
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: in the general hunting community. For the stuff that we're

569
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: talking about right here, the North American model. I mean,

570
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: I didn't grow up knowing any of that stuff. I

571
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: doubt you did either. Um, and it's like that's got

572
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: to be on the tip of our tongue, not in

573
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: a defensive position. But most people aren't defend Most people

574
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: aren't out to get hunting. Most people just don't know.

575
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, So your friends and family and people you

576
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: come into if these things are on your mind and

577
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: kind of part of what how you think about hunting,

578
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: they'll come out in the way that you talk and

579
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: communicate act, and people respond to that when when they

580
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: see that there has been some reasonable and intelligent thought

581
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: that's gone into this and it's not just barbarians out

582
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: trying to kill stuff, you know. Yeah, that's that's exactly

583
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: been my experience too. It's just generally curiosity and then

584
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: typically surprised encouragement once they start to learn more about it.

585
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: So speaking of curiosity, then I want to hear a

586
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: little bit more about something you alluded to a second ago,

587
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: which was this this culture that you grew up with

588
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: in uh specifically maybe on the deer hunting side, because

589
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: this is one area that I have not spent enough

590
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: time and myself, so I just you know, you see

591
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: it a little bit in the media here, a little

592
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: bit about it, but you don't know anything until you've

593
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: lived it. Tell me about just what that hunting and

594
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: deer hunting cultures like in Arkansas or you're part of

595
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: the country there. Yeah, so Arkansas would be a heavily

596
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: forested area. I mean, you know, naturally would have been

597
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: almost a forested Um. I grew up in the Washtall

598
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: Mountains in some in an area national forest. I mean

599
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: the town I lived in just about any direction that

600
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: you drove, once you got out of town, you were

601
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: in national forest. And uh so it was it was

602
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: kind of, uh, what we would call mountain hunters. You know,

603
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: a lot of guys hunted big national forests, hunted the mountains,

604
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: and uh it was. It was tough hunting. Um it's

605
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: it's way better today. There's more deer than there were

606
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, but but there weren't many

607
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: deer and uh guys, So there were two ways that

608
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: people hunted. I mean, they were just kind of the

609
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: standard you know, still hunter, tree stand hunter that was

610
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: hunting signed in the mountains. But there were a lot

611
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: of guys that ran dogs too. It's one of the

612
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: few places in the country where you can still run

613
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: dogs for deer. And so that was a kind of

614
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: a big part of the hunting culture. And I wasn't

615
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 1: big into running deer with dogs, even though I did

616
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: and had, you know, as a kid, we did that. Um.

617
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, So my dad started hunting in the early

618
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, got a bow and and he describes it

619
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: like he grew up in a fairly I mean a

620
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: town of maybe thirty thousand in western Arkansas, and to

621
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: his knowledge, there was just nobody consistently killing white tail

622
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: deer with a bow in the early seventies around there.

623
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: You know, a few guys had done it, and they

624
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: kind of became the go to knowledge base, but they

625
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: really didn't do it consistently. And uh, And my dad's

626
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: kind of personal hunting story and and claim to fame,

627
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: which ultimately impacted me, was he wasn't a deer hunter.

628
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 1: His father wasn't a deer hunter. His father was a

629
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: hunter quail hunter, but not a deer hunter. Is he

630
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: just went out in the woods and just started pounding

631
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: around and found out that deer eight white oak acorns,

632
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: And found out that if you found a white oak

633
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: acorn tree that had about ten piles of deer droppings

634
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: under it, you could hang up a stand and kill

635
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: a deer, and uh, he started consistently killing deer with

636
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: his bow, and uh, he just he just loved it.

637
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: He just loved it, and he still does to this day.

638
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: My dad camps and hunts public land in Arkansas and

639
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: there's nothing that gets him more excited than a white

640
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: oak tree dropping acorns with deer droppings under it and

641
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah, And so I grew up

642
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: just bow hunting. Dad wouldn't let us hunt with a gun. Um,

643
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: he was like, if you're gonna be a hunter, you're

644
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: gonna be a bow hunter. And it wasn't anything against guns,

645
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: that's just what he did, you know. And so that's

646
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: what he wanted us to do. And yeah, so that

647
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: that was kind of the other side of the Gary

648
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: Newcome school of hard knocks, was that we we had

649
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: to learn to bow hunt. And it was years before

650
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: I killed the deer. I mean, my friends were killing

651
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: deer with guns and it just eat me up, you know,

652
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: and I hadn't killed one. And but finally I did

653
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: kill one. And after I killed one, I the you know,

654
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: the the string of success started to happen more regularly.

655
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, so really I started off as a deer hunter.

656
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: I really did and still love deer hunting just as

657
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: most of the day as I ever have. You know, So,

658
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: what's what's the deer hunting like in that neck of

659
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: the woods now today you said it's better, Um, what

660
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: is that? How you still hunt? Do you look for

661
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: a for a white oak, find some droppings and set

662
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: up underneath it, or how do you go about it

663
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: now after you've been doing this for so many years

664
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: and growing yourself as a hunter? Um, how do you

665
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: approach it? So there's there's three ways that we're hunting, Dad.

666
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: We're hunting in in deeper southwest Arkansas. You start getting

667
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: into the Gulf coastal playing of our Arkansas and it's

668
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: a lot of timberland, so there'll be these massive clear

669
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: cuts and pine plantations and they'll leave hardwoods along the creeks.

670
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: And when you're hunting down there, really the only place

671
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: to target deer is along those creek bottoms where they're

672
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: wide oak acorns fallen or whatever kind of ocus bearing fruit. Um,

673
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: and so down in that part of the country, and

674
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: that's where my dad hunts. Man. We would we we

675
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: wouldn't really hunt funnels necessarily. We wouldn't hunt saddles. We

676
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: would hunt individual white oak trees that were dropping that

677
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: day and had fresh deer sign. And but I don't

678
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: hunt down there with him as much. In that setting.

679
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: You move up forty miles and you get into the

680
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: big national forest, and there's less deer in the big

681
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: national forests. There's more deer down in the clear cuts

682
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: and pine plants atitions a little bit further south, um

683
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: less deer and kind of the mature o kickory pine

684
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: climax forests of the Ozark and Washtaw Mountains and uh

685
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: much much. The deer population is way lower just because

686
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: of the habitat They the last twenty years they hadn't

687
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: logged as much. And when I hunt there, Mark, I'm

688
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: hunting terrain features. UM food. Food is usually pretty broadly

689
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: dispersed because you've got these massive contiguous stands of hardwoods

690
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: and stuff. The acorn is made, then there's acorns everywhere.

691
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: Or if let's say the acron is just made on

692
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: tops of the ridges for whatever reason, well there's acrons

693
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: on every ridge top. And so what I would be

694
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: looking for is for buck sign, you know, certain ridge tops, saddles, fingers,

695
00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: heads of hollows that had buck sign in in wherever

696
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: that buck sign would be. You know, typically they're making

697
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: that sign there because they're traveling there, because there are

698
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: does there. And so we're hunting a lot more travel

699
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: corridor type areas in the mountains. Um, and our mountains

700
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: down there close to three thousand feet and can be

701
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: really rugged and steep, and wind is really difficult. Uh

702
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: in the mountains, the wind just swirls. I mean, it's

703
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: just so hard to get a predictable wind. That's what

704
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: makes it so difficult. Um. So that's kind of my

705
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: national forest hunting. And then the best deer that I've

706
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: killed in Arkansas, I've come off private land, um and

707
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: up here close to where I live now. So I'm

708
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: talking about three different spots here where I live in

709
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: northwest Arkansas now, and half of the last twenty years

710
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: I've hunted pretty extensively on private land. And here we've

711
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: got cattle pastures and hardwood timber, and these cattle pastures,

712
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 1: you know, sculpt the land in such a way that

713
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: travel corridors are much easier to identify, just because it's

714
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: not all woods, you know. And uh so I'm hunting

715
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: pinch points you know, just like funnels in between cattle pastures.

716
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: You know, I've done some food plot stuff. Uh. We can,

717
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: we can bait deer in Arkansas and uh and I'm

718
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: not above uh baiting some deer at different times and

719
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: uh and even using that as a way to take

720
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: inventory on a property and then hunting the deer somewhere else. Um. So,

721
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: but we have some good deer in Arkansas, Um, we

722
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: really do. Uh. Every year they're taking boone and crocket

723
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 1: animals out of Arkansas. Not it's not common. Um yeah,

724
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: what what kind of what kind of goals do you

725
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: have when it comes to deer hunting there? Because I know,

726
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: I know I've seen you some hunting up much further

727
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: north in Canada with a pretty discerning eye as to

728
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: what you're gonna shoot. What do you what's your mindset

729
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: down at home? Are you just filling the freezer with

730
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: the first thing you see or do you hold out

731
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: for for something else? What's what's that for you? So

732
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: in about two thousand and five, now I was two

733
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: thousand four, h started I had a goal to just

734
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: kill a three and a half year old buck or

735
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: older in the Ozarks with my bow every year that

736
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: was my goal. I didn't care if it what it

737
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: looked like, just if I judged it to be three

738
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: and a half. And you know, the buzzword these days

739
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: is four and a half, as we all know, all

740
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: good deer hunters know now. Um, but back then, of

741
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: course a half and and uh. I maintained that goal

742
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: for ten years, and did that probably seven or eight

743
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: of the ten years. And uh, and now I might

744
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: even be I don't know if I'm more picky or

745
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: less picky, because I'm a cherry pick where I want

746
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: stuff to happen down in the National forest where I've

747
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: targeted the last five years. I am just after a

748
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: mature animal and and sometimes those deer don't have big racks.

749
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: And uh, I'm trying to kill a deer down the

750
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: national forest up here at home, I mean, I'm probably

751
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: looking for a pope and young class type deer that

752
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: that that would get me pretty excited. I mean I would.

753
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: I would spend my season and hunt him like he

754
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: was a Boon and Crockett if he had a dred

755
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: of antler. Every every couple of years, I get a

756
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: really nice deer on camera. Um, a couple of years

757
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: I've had, you know, in twenty years. One time, well

758
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: once I killed I killed a hundred and sixty nine

759
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: inch deer here close to my house in two thousand seven. Um,

760
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: and uh, one time I was hunt thing a deer

761
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: that my neighbor ended up killing. That ended up scoring

762
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: in the one eighties. But in twenty years, those are

763
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: the two big ones. Most years I'm hunting hundred deer. Yeah,

764
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: it sounds like it sounds like here in Michigan, that's

765
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: your typical deer that that might reach maturity is going

766
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: to be somewhere in that ballpark. So how do you

767
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: go about, like what's the switch you make when shifting

768
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: from shooting anything to then trying to kill that three

769
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: and a half year old or now the truly mature deer,

770
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: whatever that is for you down in the national forest. Um,

771
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: what are the things that you started doing differently when

772
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: you made that that you graduated to whatever that to

773
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: that new challenge for you? What what has to be

774
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: done different That's a good question. Um, you know, I

775
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: guess you just have to be okay with not being successful.

776
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: I mean I haven't killed a buck in Arkansas and

777
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: at two years maybe even three, and that to me

778
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: would have been totally unacceptable, you know, ten fifteen years ago.

779
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: Um and and and I don't ever want to lose

780
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: that drive to to be successful, and even defining success

781
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: is taking an animal. I mean, I I think that's

782
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: okay to do that. It's not all of what success is.

783
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: But but I think the older I have gotten, the

784
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: easier it has become too, you know, short term sacrifice

785
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: for long term gain. So rather than shoot that lesser, dear,

786
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm okay with I'm okay with waiting, and I'm okay

787
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: with committing my season to a really difficult place on purpose,

788
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: by choice, for the purpose of personal limitation, hoping that

789
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: when I do kill an animal, there's gonna be really awesome.

790
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: Mark this is I almost had this revelation. I think

791
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: it was two years ago, and it it like startled

792
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: me and made me laugh too at the same time.

793
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: But so I live in northwest Arkansas. I drive two

794
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: hours south to probably some of the most difficult white

795
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: tail hunting there is. I mean there's probably I know

796
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: there are places that are as hard and probably harder,

797
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: but not many. I mean, it's just not great hunting.

798
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: And I could drive two hours north and be in

799
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: Southeast Kansas. What are you doing? Could be in southeast

800
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: Kansas in an hour and a half from my house,

801
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: maybe our forty five and uh we drove up to

802
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: Kansas on a family trip and I was just I

803
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: just realized how short of a drive it was to

804
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 1: get into really some of the premier white tail honey

805
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: in the country. And I turned to my wife and

806
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: I said, I drive two hours the wrong direction deer hunt,

807
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: and but I love it, man, I do. I would

808
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: and see. And this is where media doesn't translate. Like

809
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: one day and I have not killed that big national

810
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: forest buck. That's really become a goal that's hit me

811
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: pretty hard. In the last three or four years. I've

812
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: dedicated most of my white tail hunting kind of since

813
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: i've been an adult um to where I lived up here,

814
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: which my access points up here are private land, and

815
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: I've taken a lot of nice deer on private land

816
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: up here, So now I'm kind of focusing on public

817
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: like that's that's just where I want to kill it.

818
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: And one of these days you'll see some video of

819
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: me mark killing a hue buck, and I will you

820
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: will have thought that I killed the boon and Crockett

821
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: by the way I was acting, and it's because of

822
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: where I killed it and just a personal connection I

823
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 1: have to that place. And that's valuable. Man, That's valuable.

824
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of what some of the

825
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,479
Speaker 1: hunting media sometimes takes away from us or certainly has,

826
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: is that you see, you know, we all know the narrative.

827
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: You know, you see these guys killing big deer on

828
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: TV and in the heck, I go to Canada and

829
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: shoot big deer and it's awesome. I love it. But

830
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: you see that and that devalues you know, what you

831
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: have access to. So I think everybody's got to take

832
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: inventory of really what they have access to and challenge

833
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: themselves on that however they see fit that makes them

834
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: a better hunter and just satisfies them, you know. Yeah,

835
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: relate to what you're saying. There. Something I'm kind of

836
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: curious though about just better understanding how you think about

837
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: this stuff. Is this whole idea of of quote unquote

838
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: trophy hunting. Because this is something that I think about

839
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 1: a lot for myself too, because I self impose different

840
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,479
Speaker 1: goals on my hunting and I am quite particular about

841
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: what dare I'm gonna choose to shoot or not, and

842
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 1: you'll sometimes get these accusations, you know, your trophy hunter

843
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: or why you trophy hunter, or something like that. And

844
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: I don't like that word, I think because it has

845
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: all these very negative connotations. Now. I feel like especially

846
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: non hunters, when they see that, they assume something much

847
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: different than what is experienced by someone like me who

848
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: might be a selective deer hunter or whatever. It might

849
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: be a goal oriented deer hunter or whatever. Um, I'm

850
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: just kind of curious how you how you put words

851
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: to that that choice you've made well and Mark, you

852
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: may have heard this before, but but maybe maybe others

853
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't have. But I'm not afraid of that word trophy

854
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: hunting because if we get down really to the the

855
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: original definition, you know, trophy hunting is what saved North

856
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: American wildlife. I mean this idea of in the scriminate

857
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: killing of the eighteen hundreds in this market hunting culture

858
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: where if it's brown, it's down females, juveniles, whatever was killed.

859
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: You know, the Boone and Crockett Club was formed in

860
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 1: seven and they they basically quantified what a mature male

861
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: species of all the animals that we hunt were and

862
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: they assigned value to the attributes of antlers and skull

863
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: size that were that of a mature male species of

864
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: that animal. And so they were the first guys that said, hey,

865
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: it's officially cool to kill the big ones and let

866
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: the juveniles and females go. I mean, they were the

867
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: ones that did that, and we now reap that inside

868
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,959
Speaker 1: of our culture. And obviously that has been taken out

869
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 1: of context and has been the pendulum has been swung

870
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: really far in certain scenarios and hunting. And it's real

871
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: easy to smear somebody that goes someplace and takes big animals. Um.

872
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: So I guess what I say when if somebody were

873
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: to say, Clay, you're a trophy hunter, I would say,

874
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: if I was being facetious and trying to pick out him,

875
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: I would say, you bet you I am. And that's

876
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: why and that's what saved North American wildlife. And again

877
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: my spiel, Um, But I think there's honor and being selective,

878
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean, what are you gonna do?

879
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: Are you're gonna be selective for the small ones? You

880
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Uh? And I and Mark, I

881
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: know I'm talking. I'm preaching to the choir talking to you.

882
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: But I would point people back to to be selective

883
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: is self imposed limitation, which is good for everything involved.

884
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: It's good for all the animals that we pass. It's

885
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: also good for a human too to have self restraint,

886
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: purposeful self restraint. So I you know, I just have

887
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: no problem being selective and trying to target the old ones,

888
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 1: you know, and and and obviously you give back even

889
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 1: to the biology that an older, mature male has already

890
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: contributed to the gene pool. His extraction from the population

891
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: results in really very little loss from the overall population.

892
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: You know, you take out a female, you've taken out

893
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: a lot of possible production for generations to come. And

894
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and I know we're not talking

895
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: about shooting bucks or does and and the most deer

896
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: numbers were trying to reduce herd numbers. That's irrelevant, But

897
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: with bears that's really relevant. People are like, well, why

898
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: are you shooting the old one? And uh and and

899
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: it's it really makes sense if you can talk someone

900
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: through it, you know, without kind of like a jerk. Yeah,

901
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: I heard you see something in one of your videos

902
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: where you said something on the lines of someone will

903
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: call it trophy hunting. I'm gonna call it being a

904
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: conservation informed hunter, and I like to that. I think

905
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: that that speaks to that context that is important to

906
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: understand when it comes to these decisions. And many times

907
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: people don't see it, but there's there is thought, and

908
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: there is regulation, and there is conservation and science behind

909
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: a lot of this that that leads to a greater

910
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: good in the long run, to let alone the individual

911
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: um accomplishment or growth that you can take from that

912
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: experience too. So I hear you on all fronts speaking

913
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: of trophy hunting though or big deer. I know you

914
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: also head up to Canada. You do this. I don't

915
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: know how long you've been doing it, but it seems

916
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: like for some number of years now you've been heading

917
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: up to Canada. I know Manitoba for sure, maybe Saskatchewan.

918
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: UM tell me about that a little bit, because I've

919
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,439
Speaker 1: I've always a lot of people dream of of doing

920
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: the Canadian deer hunting thing, but you've you've lived it.

921
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: Is that everything that we imagine it might be, you know. Okay,

922
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: So I've been I've hunted Manitoba for white tails the

923
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: last three years. So that's been my that's been my

924
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: experience with it there. It's kind of complex question. Manitoba

925
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: about ten years ago experienced a pretty dramatic uh loss

926
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 1: and deer numbers just because of multiple really tough winters.

927
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: So their population is in recovery right now and it's

928
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: really just now getting back up to really good numbers. Uh.

929
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:37,439
Speaker 1: Manitoba is has not been the target place for big

930
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: white tails, typically Saskatchewan and albert are That's what you

931
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: hear about, um. And that is primarily because you can

932
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: hunt deer over bait in Alberta and Saskatchewan and you

933
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: cannot in Manitoba, which I actually like. So Manitoba has

934
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: never been totally on the radar of the big game hunts,

935
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: the big game, you know, the big white tell hunters. Um.

936
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: But Mark Man, we're gonna release all our secrets and

937
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: all these camps are just gonna fill. Because of that,

938
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: Manitoba hunts are are are pretty dern cheap. Uh you

939
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 1: know where the Saskatchewan and Alberta hunts are in demand

940
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 1: more because higher success rates because you can hunt over

941
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 1: bait and uh, so the hunts are more expensive. UM.

942
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: I have taken three incredible deer the last three years

943
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: and in Canada. One with a bow u two with

944
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: a muzzloader, and oh man, it's one of the favorite,

945
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: my favorite things that I do. And it's partly because

946
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: of the guy we go with. So Tom Ainsworth is

947
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: a he was a longtime bear hunting magazine advertiser, so

948
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 1: he was a bear outfitter. He retired and sold his

949
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: bear business but still had these white tail tags and

950
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: he has access to thousands of acres in southern Manitoba

951
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 1: of private land just agg country. Um. I've never hunted Iowa,

952
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 1: but I mean for all general purposes. I mean it

953
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: kind of be like hat in Iowa. I mean, you know,

954
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: big crop country. Um not they don't have the funnels

955
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: quite like it's either it's it's kind of this big

956
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,959
Speaker 1: bush country as they call it, which would be big

957
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: blocks of contiguous timber and then these big blocks of

958
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: agg you know. And uh, but to go up there

959
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: and think you're gonna kill a boondoo crocket animal is

960
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: probably pretty far fetched at least where we're hunting. That

961
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: being said, last year I killed a deer that was

962
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: just under one sixty Uh. I say it was one

963
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: sixty just for just because it's easier. I mean it's

964
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: scored one fifty nine and seven eights something like that. Uh,

965
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 1: always round up in favor of that. Yeah, so you know,

966
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: hundred sixty inch deer. Um. I've taken several people up

967
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: there with me, just friends, and they always are disappointed

968
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: and I want to just kick him in the shin

969
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: because they're like, Okay, so we're gonna be hunting like

970
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: hight hundred seventy inch deer and I'm just like, no,

971
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: we're not that. They're they're just probably not there. You

972
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: could kill one that big, but probably won't. Um. And

973
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: the truth is, those guys that are a little bit

974
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: disappointed that we're not hunting hundred and seventy inch deer

975
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: go up to Manitoba and flip out when they see

976
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 1: a hundred and forty inch deer with that's just massive

977
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: and chocolate horned and a beast, you know, two d

978
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: fifty pound animal. Um. Most guys are way happier with

979
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 1: a quote unquote lesser scoring deer than they realize, especially

980
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: when it has mass, you know. Um. But now I

981
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: killed a hundred sixty inch deer and then a hundred

982
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,919
Speaker 1: and fifty two inch deer with my bow and then

983
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: and I killed a deer that I don't even want

984
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: to say the score. But if you saw this deer

985
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: standing beside either one of the deer that I killed,

986
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have known which one to shoot. But the

987
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: deer only scored in the one thirties, a big Harley

988
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: Old eight point um. Like really, if if the one sixty,

989
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: one fifty and the one thirty were standing in the field,

990
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: you would have to really look at them to know

991
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,439
Speaker 1: which one to shoot. Uh, they were that big, Yeah,

992
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: seen them on They all are jumbo. I mean they're

993
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: dandy bucks, all three of them. So I certainly can

994
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. But people that don't just think

995
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: about score, you know, wouldn't really understand that. But but

996
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: now it's it's a lot. It's a lot of We

997
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: see a lot of deer up there. I mean when

998
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: I first started hunting Canada, I thought I would sit

999
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: all day and see two or three deer. Um that's

1000
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: not been my experience. We're seeing a lot of deer

1001
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: every time we go. You know, tend to deer a sit. Uh,

1002
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: we're not always sitting all day. Um, Tom guy we

1003
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: hunt with, he likes to just hunt three or four

1004
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 1: hours in the morning, three or four hours in the evening,

1005
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: and I end up usually sitting all day every time

1006
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: I've been up there for whatever reason. And you know,

1007
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: you can do pretty good when you do that as well. Um,

1008
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: but you know, it's kind of classic stuff sitting in

1009
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: a box stand if you're rifle hunting. Uh, I killed

1010
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: the bow buck out of a tree stand. Obscure places

1011
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: to hunt. Man, if you're if you're a pretty proficient

1012
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: deer hunter, you know down in this part of the world,

1013
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: and you go up there, it'll blow your mind where

1014
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: you can kill deer up there, I mean when you know,

1015
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: and it's an outfitted hunt. But Tom is really good

1016
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: about letting you just kind of do what you want

1017
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: and kind of collaborating with you. But the second the

1018
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: first year I went up there, Mark Tom had seen

1019
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: a big buck in the field. He was just like Clay,

1020
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: this morning, I saw a big one right out there.

1021
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: He said, I think we ought to go ahead and

1022
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: hang to stand out there. And I was like, okay,

1023
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: and you know, I was thinking this isn't gonna work.

1024
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: And uh. We went to the back corner of this field.

1025
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: You could see a half a mile in front of me,

1026
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: and it wasn't a deer sign to speak of. And

1027
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: we just threw up a ladder stand, drove the truck

1028
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: up to the corner of this field, drew up a

1029
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: ladder stand, I climbed up in the tree, and he

1030
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: drives off. And I'm just sitting there thinking, there is

1031
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: no way a white tailed deer is about to walk

1032
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: past me. Number one and not see me sitting in

1033
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: this tree twelve feet off the ground in a popular

1034
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: with no leaves. And number two, that a mature buck

1035
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: is gonna walk by within forty yards of this tree.

1036
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: And man, in an hour and a half, I've killed

1037
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: that hundred fifty deer. He never even looked at me.

1038
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: I mean, if that deer in Arkansas would have spotted

1039
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: me in a flash. I mean, those deer are just

1040
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: they're just different. I don't understand it fully, but they

1041
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: are not nearly is aware. Is our deer nice to

1042
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: go to a place where they're not quite as pressured

1043
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: and constant on edge, that's for sure. Yeah, I know

1044
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: it's like that where you hunt mark super edgy, pressured

1045
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 1: dear big time. Yeah, it's it's nice to enjoy the

1046
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: other side of things every once in a while. Um,

1047
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: you mentioned that this this place that you went. Uh.

1048
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: Tom Ainsworth used to be an advertiser on the bear

1049
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: hunting side of things, which which we have to talk about. Two.

1050
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: Given everything you're doing with bear hunting, and this is

1051
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: typically a deer hunting podcast, but I know that there's

1052
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: a lot of folks with aspirations of branching out and

1053
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: trying new things, and and I too, and bear hunting

1054
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: has been one of those deals that has been on

1055
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: my radar for a long time. UM. I've only bear

1056
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: hunted once and it was just for a couple of

1057
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 1: days out in Montana. UM have wanted to spend more

1058
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: time doing it, had plans to possibly do it this year,

1059
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: but that's now in the can because of everything going

1060
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 1: on with a travel lockdowns. But bear uning has been

1061
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 1: one of those deals that has kind of lingered in

1062
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 1: the back of my mind. Is something that I say

1063
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: I want to do, and I want to do the activity,

1064
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: but I have questions around if I want to pull

1065
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: the trigger once I finally get to that point. Because

1066
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: I find bears, I mean I find every animal fascinating, beautiful.

1067
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: I love dear these animals. That I hunt and kill

1068
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: all the time, but for some reason, there seems something

1069
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 1: a little different. I don't know how to quite put

1070
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: a finger on it. But with a bear, um, a

1071
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: black bear, or grizzly, I think I'd probably feel even

1072
01:03:53,800 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: more so with grizzly. Um, something something speakable, I don't know.

1073
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: That just would give me pause about doing that. At

1074
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 1: the same time, I still want to go out and

1075
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: try so. I'm I don't know where I stand there

1076
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: on this. I don't know why how I would react

1077
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: to the moment, but I'm just kind of curious if

1078
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 1: any of that resonates with you. Have you ever struggled

1079
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: with something like that? Do you do you ever find

1080
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: yourself thinking do I really want to in that moment?

1081
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: Because you're obviously, uh, you care about these animals a

1082
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: whole lot, You're fascinated by these animals. Does any of

1083
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: this make sense? Or do I sound like a wacko? Well,

1084
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: if I hadn't heard it before, Mark, I would think

1085
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 1: you were a wacko. But because I've heard it before,

1086
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: I don't. Um laugh man, you're supposed to. I'm laughing, okay, Um,

1087
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: Now you know I never I never had that feeling

1088
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: I just haven't. And I found that some percentage of

1089
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 1: people describe bear hunting just like you did, Mark, And

1090
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong of that. I mean,

1091
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: not everybody has to want to kill a deer or

1092
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: kill a bear, excuse me to you know, if they're

1093
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: a hunter. I get it, you know, I get it,

1094
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: But but I don't get it in the sense of

1095
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: I've never had any trouble with the idea or the

1096
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: action of killing a bear. I mean every time I've

1097
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 1: ever seen a bear, from the first one I ever saw,

1098
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there was this deep respect, but there was

1099
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 1: also this predatory thing inside of me, just like I

1100
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: would like to kill that bear and eat it. Um

1101
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: that And I think that's just that spectrum inside of

1102
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: all of us that everybody's just built a little bit different.

1103
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 1: But but it's also what we've been we've grown up around.

1104
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 1: You know, I think if you were around some bear

1105
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,919
Speaker 1: hunting and some bear hunters like it would probably quick

1106
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: pretty quickly begin to make sense. And then when you

1107
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: finally had some bear, you know, you you harvested a bear,

1108
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: you butchered it, you you had some of that meat,

1109
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: really saw how good it was. Maybe maybe understanding some

1110
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 1: of the history of bear hunting in North America puts

1111
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: into context as well. Um, all of a sudden, I

1112
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: think the things would start to line up, and it

1113
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,240
Speaker 1: would become in your mind just like killing a deer,

1114
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: just like killing a squirrel, just like killing a turkey.

1115
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: And really it's no different. I mean, and and here's

1116
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: the thing. I guess that it's not the danger. It's

1117
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: just the challenge of bear hunting that we have to

1118
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: work with. From a kind of a philosophical standpoint, is that,

1119
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, bears are easier to do with what

1120
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 1: you're talking about than something else. I mean, if you

1121
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: were taking you squirrel hunting mark and you never squirrel hunted, uh,

1122
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 1: you know, you wouldn't be like I mean, most likely

1123
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have any trouble squirrel. But for whatever reason,

1124
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: people do have a little bit of trepidation with killing

1125
01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: a bear. It might be genetics and part of us

1126
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: that you know, tip, I mean, we were designed to hunt,

1127
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, the bigger populations of animal. We're not designed.

1128
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: But I mean human cultures have lived off ungulates more

1129
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: than they lived off carnivores and omnivores. I mean, so

1130
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: even like from a evolutionary standpoint, it's almost like, you know,

1131
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 1: like we lean towards that being a game animal. But

1132
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: inside the current context of black bear populations thriving in

1133
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: North America, um, inside of us now knowing how to

1134
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: handle bear meat so that it's safe to eat. Uh.

1135
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 1: You know, there's like all these cards that fall into place,

1136
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, yeah, this is this is this

1137
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 1: is the perfect animal to hunt and to kill and

1138
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: uh and Mark I I say this a lot too

1139
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: from a if we're talking philosophy, really, there's not another

1140
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: big game animal that we utilize from a wildlife commodity

1141
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: standpoint more than a bear. I mean, and here's my

1142
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 1: argument with that. We use the meat, we can render

1143
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: down the fat, and granted not everybody does that, but

1144
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: more and more people are rendering bear fat and finding

1145
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 1: all kinds of great uses for it. So we're using

1146
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: the fat. And then probably of the bears that are

1147
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: killed are their hides are tanned. And so you you

1148
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 1: back that back into white tail deer. And nothing against

1149
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 1: white tail deer, but probably four two percent five percent

1150
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: of white tailed deer hides are tanned. Nobody's rendering fat

1151
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: off a deer. You're pretty much taking horns and meat,

1152
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, so from a wildlife usage standpoint, we use

1153
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: more of a bear than just about anything else on

1154
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: a big broad scope. You know. Yeah, it's a it's

1155
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: a great point. Um. But also then bring to mind

1156
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,600
Speaker 1: one of the perplexing things I've found about the regulation

1157
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: of bear hunting in America, and that revolves around salvage requirements,

1158
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:15,640
Speaker 1: and that most and I'm no expert on this, so

1159
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm just taking this from things I've heard in conversation.

1160
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 1: So I know you'll you'll understand it's better than I do,

1161
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: so correct me in all this. But as I understand it,

1162
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 1: some states do not require you salvage meat from a

1163
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,799
Speaker 1: black bear kill, and in Alaska at least most places,

1164
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: I think this is right. I've heard the same thing

1165
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: applies that if you kill grizzly you don't need to

1166
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 1: take the meat, and many people do not. Um, tell

1167
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: me if I'm right on that first off? And then secondly, uh,

1168
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: why is that the case? How is that the case?

1169
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: How is that defensible? Yeah, well, you're right. I believe

1170
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: there's just a handful of states in the lower forty

1171
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: eight where you don't wear want and waste laws do

1172
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: not apply to black bears and it on sleep. That's

1173
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: got to change. I mean, I am a massive proponent

1174
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:07,839
Speaker 1: and I would imagine that in the next ten years

1175
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: we will see all that change. We we it needs

1176
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: to be regulated just like any other game animals. So

1177
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 1: that is kind of an antiquated thing of the depredation

1178
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: vermin mentality past of you know, I mean, not that

1179
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 1: long ago, there were bounties on bears in a lot

1180
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 1: of states and mountain lions and stuff, you know, so

1181
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,679
Speaker 1: they just weren't viewed as a as a game animal.

1182
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: So Mark, you're exactly, You're a hundred percent right, um,

1183
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: And and ultimately that's just got to change. And you know,

1184
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: from a again kind of going back this idea of

1185
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 1: a persecution mentality kind of shaping our worldview in the

1186
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 1: bear world, is that um the well, shucks, I lost

1187
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: my train of thought. Mark, I got distracted looking out

1188
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,679
Speaker 1: the window here. That's okay, you're you're, you're, You're making

1189
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 1: a good point though about the fact that that does

1190
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: need to change, because because obviously, and I want to talk,

1191
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 1: I want to hear a little bit more from you

1192
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: on this note. But there is this old myth that

1193
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 1: bear meats no good and people are seemingly finding more

1194
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:20,799
Speaker 1: and more often that's not the case in most cases.

1195
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: Um So I'm glad to hear that. You think that

1196
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:27,559
Speaker 1: will change it. It seems that's hard to defend our

1197
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: hunting of an animal if we're not taking its meat

1198
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: in that kind of situation. So, uh so, yeah, that

1199
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 1: makes less sense. No what what I regained my tray

1200
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 1: and fire. Well, I was gonna say, Mark, is that

1201
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: persecute mentality of bear hunters. There was a fairly recent

1202
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 1: study done that said, like in the high seventieth percentile

1203
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: of Americans were okay with modern hunting if it if

1204
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 1: if we use the meat for food. So that's a

1205
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 1: big challenge in the narrative of bear hunting, which we're

1206
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 1: trying to change, is hey, we're eating these animals, and

1207
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,840
Speaker 1: so that's where the laws have to catch up with

1208
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 1: what we're doing in modern times. And and you know,

1209
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 1: in the last i mean really the last five eight years,

1210
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:17,640
Speaker 1: ten years, you know, eating bear meat has become a

1211
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: lot more popularized. People have started to experiment with it more,

1212
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: and uh the narratives totally changing around bear meat, and

1213
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 1: it's really good, you know, Yeah, so talk talk to

1214
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: me about the next step of that, because definitely it

1215
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,599
Speaker 1: seems like there's been a lot more momentum around eating

1216
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 1: black bears, but you hear much much less about grizzly

1217
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 1: And now with whole debate raging around the endangered species

1218
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: listing and delisting of grizzly is this is something now

1219
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 1: that's going to become you know, it's going to continue

1220
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: being an issue. Is that debate continues as folks say, well,

1221
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: if we're opening up a grizzly bear season but you're not,

1222
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, you're just doing it for a hide in

1223
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: a skull and all that. Um, talk to me, what's

1224
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: your experience of that. I know, you've killed the grizzly,

1225
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 1: you've killed a brown bear. Um, have you eaten brown

1226
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: and grizzly bear? What's a taste like is that? What

1227
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: do you think? Honestly, the brown bear is a different

1228
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 1: story to me because they are highly carnivorous and so

1229
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like it goes back to

1230
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 1: even like predator hunting, Well, it goes back to why

1231
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: we're hunting them from a conservation standpoint. Um, you know,

1232
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 1: like where I killed the brown bear in Alaska that

1233
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: was a two bear area. Uh I could have killed

1234
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: two brown bears as a non resident because it was

1235
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 1: a moose. It was a targeted area where they were

1236
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: trying to get moose to come back. So many brown

1237
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 1: bears they were hammering the moose calves and there's tons

1238
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: of research on that, tons of research. They they put

1239
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 1: video cameras on brown bears, have captured individual brown bears

1240
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 1: killing up to seventeen moose calves in a single season. Um. Like,

1241
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 1: So it goes back to you know, we in the

1242
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:12,839
Speaker 1: in the one of the tenants of the North American

1243
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 1: model is non frivolous use of wildlife. Well, there's some

1244
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:20,719
Speaker 1: wildlife that we take and the primary purpose is not meat.

1245
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,559
Speaker 1: And I think that's okay. Like if I go out

1246
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: and shoot coyotes off my property, um, you know, I'm

1247
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: not shooting that animal for meat and and and I'm

1248
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 1: just kind of okay with that. You know, when we

1249
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 1: coon hunt, now, we do eat coons some, but we

1250
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 1: are primarily not harvesting that coon for meat. Where he's

1251
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: a fur bearing animal, you know, we're harvesting him for

1252
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 1: his fur and his absence from the landscape. Benefits all

1253
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: these other species. So grizzly are a little bit different,

1254
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:53,639
Speaker 1: and it's man, it's a hot button, and I don't

1255
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 1: have my narrative really polished. Again, back to the idea,

1256
01:14:57,200 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 1: why are we hunting brown bears? They will they will

1257
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 1: shoot brown bears out of helicopters if hunters don't go

1258
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 1: in and kill brown bears. So if brown bear meat

1259
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,559
Speaker 1: in some cases is almost inedible because that animals been

1260
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,680
Speaker 1: eating fish and different things, then does that mean that

1261
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 1: we shouldn't hunt them and that we should let somebody

1262
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 1: shoot it out of a helicopter because we're not eating

1263
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: the meat. You see where I'm going and so so there,

1264
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 1: the brown bear is a different story. Now, if they

1265
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 1: opened up a season in the lower forty eight for

1266
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: grizz I'd be the first one they're starting to fire,

1267
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 1: roasting a grizzly bear ham over the fire and eating it.

1268
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: I mean like there are places where, yes, that needs

1269
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:46,799
Speaker 1: to be done. Um, so yeah, it seems like those

1270
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 1: sounds like those interior interior grizzlies taste better than those

1271
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: coastal bears eating the rotten fish and everything. So at

1272
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 1: least if it if it does get opened again, hopefully

1273
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 1: those will be some some tastier critters then what you

1274
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 1: might get elsewhere. Yeah, but it's a doozy. It's definitely

1275
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: something that I've read a lot about and wondered about,

1276
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 1: and and I don't know exactly how how we're gonna

1277
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 1: figure that out in the future, but I do think

1278
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 1: that to your point here in the lower forty eight especially,

1279
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:18,640
Speaker 1: that's such a sticking point that I think will be

1280
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: will be ill served if we don't require salvage, because

1281
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: it's gonna be hard to stand on. It's gonna be

1282
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,080
Speaker 1: hard to keep that stool standing up right when we

1283
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 1: talk about the conservation of the species, if we're just

1284
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 1: letting that sit in the landscape. So so so I

1285
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 1: want to I don't think I did a good enough

1286
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 1: job of setting up the y to us talking about bears,

1287
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 1: or maybe us rephrase it allowing you to set up

1288
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: the y. I want to hear your pitch. Why should

1289
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 1: a deer hunter start to bear hunt? Um? Why should

1290
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: I go bear hunt? I was gonna go. I was

1291
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 1: hoping to go this may it's not happen anymore. But

1292
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,600
Speaker 1: if I wasn't, if I was reserved about ever trying it,

1293
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 1: convinced me the black bear hunting is something worth trying. Okay, well,

1294
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 1: to me, the the spring season is very alluring should

1295
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,560
Speaker 1: be for a white tail hunter, and that you can

1296
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 1: go hunt a big game animal in the spring. And

1297
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 1: there's nothing else that you can hunt in terms of

1298
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 1: big game that you can turkey hunt. But this idea

1299
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: that we could have this gather some protein, have a

1300
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: wild adventure in a wild place at a time where

1301
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 1: you are not stealing your days away in the fall. Uh.

1302
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm a white tail hunter. I know

1303
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 1: how precious those days in late October and early November are.

1304
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 1: And so you can hunt a you can hunt a

1305
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:52,960
Speaker 1: bear in the spring. Number two, the world is looking

1306
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:57,120
Speaker 1: for bear hunters. I mean, whatever is happening ecologically, it's

1307
01:17:57,120 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 1: been highly beneficial to black bear. And it's there's more

1308
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 1: opportunity then there's been in a long time. I mean,

1309
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 1: new states are adopting bear seasons. Oklahoma, Kentucky, now Florida

1310
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 1: had a bear see a new bear season, but it's

1311
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:19,799
Speaker 1: been knocked back for now. Uh. New Jersey like bear

1312
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:26,680
Speaker 1: opportunity is expanding. Um. Additionally, you know this idea that

1313
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 1: that the meat is good A lot of people I

1314
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,720
Speaker 1: talked to that our first time bear hunters say, I'm

1315
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,479
Speaker 1: literally to kill a bear because I don't know if

1316
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 1: I like the meat. And you know, there's a solution

1317
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 1: to that problem is is that you're just gonna have

1318
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: to try some good bear meat and see if you

1319
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: like it. And I get it that if you don't

1320
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 1: want if you don't like it, then you you may

1321
01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 1: not want to hunt a bear, but you don't who's

1322
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:51,639
Speaker 1: to say that you can't give the meat away? Or

1323
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 1: people want bear meat, people like it, and the truth

1324
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: is that if it's handled correctly, you most likely will

1325
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 1: like it. If you like dear ag um and to me,

1326
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:09,639
Speaker 1: mark bears are iconic of North American wilderness. Bears live

1327
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 1: in wild places and kind of be in a white

1328
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 1: tail hunter. A lot of times we're hunting pretty pretty

1329
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:22,839
Speaker 1: uh Man influenced places and landscapes, and and that's okay.

1330
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: I mean we're hunting farm country and we're hunting close

1331
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 1: to town. You know, best of tier I've ever killed

1332
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,599
Speaker 1: have been close to my house. Well, when you're hunting bears,

1333
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: you you typically are getting back into some of North

1334
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 1: America's real wilderness and real wild places, and that is

1335
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:43,360
Speaker 1: a lurian. That's what makes it fun. That's what makes

1336
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 1: the challenge because your challenge you're pitted against uh or

1337
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 1: you're not pitted against it, but I mean, you know,

1338
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 1: you're you're in a wild place, and that's different than deer.

1339
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:58,280
Speaker 1: The whole idea of hunting a animal that could hurt

1340
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:04,719
Speaker 1: you is adds a new twang to hunting. Um. Guys

1341
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 1: that have done it a long time aren't as enamored

1342
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 1: by that. It's kind of it kind of just becomes normal.

1343
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 1: But you know, I find new bear hunters oftentimes if

1344
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:16,639
Speaker 1: they're on the ground and close to a bear, I mean,

1345
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: they're just you know, it's it's it's really an exhilarating experience. Um.

1346
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 1: And then bears are just incredible animals. I mean, the

1347
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:31,200
Speaker 1: biology of bears is just incredible. Um. They're resilient animal there,

1348
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:34,000
Speaker 1: they're they're generalists, so they can live in so many

1349
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:37,720
Speaker 1: different landscapes. There's four different colored way actually up to

1350
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:44,879
Speaker 1: six different color phases of black bear. Um there. There

1351
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 1: there's just all these unique little nuances inside of hunting,

1352
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 1: the different techniques. You know, if you're in if you're

1353
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,280
Speaker 1: in the Southern Appalachians, you know, there's one way to

1354
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 1: hunt a bear out there, and that's would be intrigued

1355
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:00,640
Speaker 1: by hounds. Uh. If you're out where, there's one way

1356
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 1: to kill abart out there, that's to go on a

1357
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:08,480
Speaker 1: classic spot and stalk glassing hunt. And that's awesome. Um,

1358
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 1: if you're hearing the ozarks. Our bear hunting culture is

1359
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 1: relatively new, to be honest with you, because our bears

1360
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 1: just in the last forty years have come back and

1361
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:20,640
Speaker 1: so you know, we can hunt bears over bait, but

1362
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 1: we're kind of grinding out this idea of hunting bears

1363
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 1: in national forest without bait on the ground with boats.

1364
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:29,719
Speaker 1: We call it the sheep hunt of the South because

1365
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 1: it's a low percentage hunt. It's a difficult hunt. Uh.

1366
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 1: You don't see a lot of game, super challenge. Um,

1367
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: so you know you can hunt them that way. So

1368
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: there's diversity, there's good meat, there's challenge, and then there's

1369
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 1: just a the historical precedice of the North American hunter man.

1370
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:54,919
Speaker 1: A lot of the patriarchs of our of our hunting culture,

1371
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 1: we're bear hunters. They identified themselves as bear hunters. Daniel Boone,

1372
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, Davy Crockett, I, mean, these guys, they didn't

1373
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 1: they I mean they were deer hunters for sure, but

1374
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 1: that's not what they went home and told their wives

1375
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:12,960
Speaker 1: and kids about. They went home and told them that, hey,

1376
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: we're bear hunters. And I think that's what we're seeing

1377
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 1: revived inside of the times right now, is that there's

1378
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 1: kind of this revival of the bear hunter, you know,

1379
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 1: kind of conservation minded, intelligent, uh you know, bear hunter.

1380
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:35,679
Speaker 1: That's that's really filling a space in that bears need.

1381
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: You know, bear habitat. You know, there's only so much

1382
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 1: really good bare habitat, and so beare numbers have to

1383
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:46,799
Speaker 1: manage to fit that habitat. Bears increased by ten percent

1384
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 1: per year. There they get in trouble. You know, you

1385
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: can have ten deer out in your front yard and

1386
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 1: not be that big of a deal. You have one

1387
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 1: bear on your porch eating your bird seed, You've got

1388
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:02,080
Speaker 1: a big deal on your hands. Um. So, you know,

1389
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:05,919
Speaker 1: there is a more of a need to really manage

1390
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 1: these populations so that they stay in wild places. And

1391
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 1: that's a real threat, a real issue. You know, it

1392
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:14,760
Speaker 1: sounds like a spin or a narrative just so that

1393
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 1: we can go out and hunt bears. But but it's

1394
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 1: actually not. I mean, it's just the truth. Bear numbers

1395
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:23,360
Speaker 1: have to be managed or they will end up causing

1396
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:27,240
Speaker 1: trouble and getting getting killed. There's places out in California where,

1397
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 1: well there's placed all over the country, but some real specific,

1398
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,240
Speaker 1: unique places in California where these bears aren't hunted and

1399
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 1: they're just reaking havoc. Um. So, anyway, that's my spield mark.

1400
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:46,040
Speaker 1: So you convinced me. You convinced me, Clay, And uh,

1401
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:48,439
Speaker 1: now what I need you to tell me? I'm speaking

1402
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,679
Speaker 1: as a listener of this podcast. You've convinced me. Now

1403
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 1: I want to know I've got I've got a decent budget.

1404
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:58,680
Speaker 1: You know, I don't have a lot of money, but

1405
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:00,639
Speaker 1: I've got an average amount of money to go on

1406
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 1: an out of state bear hunt. I want this is

1407
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 1: gonna be my first bear hunt. I want the quintessential

1408
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,479
Speaker 1: bear hunting experience. Um layout for me, what you recommend

1409
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 1: as that best first bear hunting experience that you think

1410
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 1: is gonna hook someone you know for life. Yeah, Well,

1411
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: because of the diversity of ways we hunt bears, there's

1412
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:27,800
Speaker 1: really not a quintessential experience. Because there are two things

1413
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:30,400
Speaker 1: that I would that I would say is that you

1414
01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:32,640
Speaker 1: could go on and do it yourself western spot in

1415
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 1: stock hunt in Idaho or Montana. That would be a

1416
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 1: classic spot and stock western hunt. Um, odds would be

1417
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:46,880
Speaker 1: fairly low that you'd be successful. Um. I'm not saying

1418
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 1: you couldn't go out there and do it. But the

1419
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 1: first two years I hunted Montana, I did not kill

1420
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:53,560
Speaker 1: a bear, and I was trying to do it with

1421
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 1: a rifle, you know, and felt like I was going

1422
01:24:55,920 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 1: in pretty informed and it's challenging to kill one. But

1423
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:05,559
Speaker 1: it's a fantastic hunt. Uh, buying over the counter tag

1424
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: go out there, do a little bit of research on

1425
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:12,880
Speaker 1: on x ON, go hunt, find some good regions, just

1426
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,320
Speaker 1: talk to people. People will tell you where bears are.

1427
01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:17,080
Speaker 1: They really will. They may not tell you where their

1428
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,200
Speaker 1: white tails are, but they'll tell you where bears are.

1429
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 1: And UH do that. So that that's category one. Category

1430
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 1: two is to go on a on an outfitted baited

1431
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 1: hunt in Canada and uh, you know, all I gotta

1432
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 1: say is don't knock it till you tried it. Man.

1433
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:38,519
Speaker 1: Some of the best times I've ever had hunting have

1434
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 1: been in Canadian bear camps. Um. Some of these hunts

1435
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:45,200
Speaker 1: are really affordable. I mean there's places in Quebec where

1436
01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: you can go on a six day hunt and stay

1437
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 1: on some beautiful cottage on the lake and fish for

1438
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 1: under a thousand dollars. It's ridiculous. Uh. Now, the bear

1439
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,479
Speaker 1: hunting is probably not gonna be as as good as

1440
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 1: some of the Western provinces Manitoba, uh, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia.

1441
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: Those are kind of the el primo black bear destinations

1442
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 1: of Canada. And you're gonna be paying in those in

1443
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:15,040
Speaker 1: the more like three thousand to four thousand dollar range

1444
01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 1: for a hunt more in British Columbia. But those are

1445
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:25,600
Speaker 1: world class bear destinations um man. And you know abated

1446
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:28,599
Speaker 1: bear hunt. I have yet to find a hunt where

1447
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 1: you get to interact with an animal in a more

1448
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 1: and I use the word intimate and I because I

1449
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,479
Speaker 1: can't find another way to describe it. But you know

1450
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 1: what other hunt are you gonna go on where you're

1451
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:46,320
Speaker 1: gonna see tons of animals every day at close range? Um?

1452
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:50,559
Speaker 1: You know, uh, not very I mean super close can

1453
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: be if you wanted to be. But you know, abated

1454
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 1: black bear hunt in Canada is pretty cool. Yeah, It's

1455
01:26:55,439 --> 01:27:01,519
Speaker 1: one of those things that I've seen and like. The

1456
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:03,639
Speaker 1: bear hunt that seems to appeal to me the most

1457
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 1: is the first that you describe going to Idaho, Montana,

1458
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:10,720
Speaker 1: way up in the mountains, seeking them out, glassing them up,

1459
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:14,600
Speaker 1: sneaking in on foot. That really appeals to me. Um.

1460
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:18,920
Speaker 1: But I do see while I'm not naturally predisposed to

1461
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: be interested in baiting, I do see your point and

1462
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:23,800
Speaker 1: that it would be fun just simply to see the

1463
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:27,839
Speaker 1: animals so often so up close. Um. Just that experience itself,

1464
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 1: I think that's got a certain of lure and and

1465
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:32,640
Speaker 1: I've seen I think I've seen you do it, and

1466
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:35,799
Speaker 1: many other people doing that on the ground even um,

1467
01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 1: and bear is coming very very close. Um, that's got

1468
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:44,760
Speaker 1: to be an unbelievable experience. Have a bear touching your

1469
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 1: arrow almost Yeah, yeah, well, the there there is something

1470
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 1: really unique about about that kind of hunt. You know,

1471
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 1: in one week of Canadian bear hunting, you will interact

1472
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 1: with bears and see more bear activity than you will

1473
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:05,960
Speaker 1: in a lifetime of hunting out West, Spot and stock

1474
01:28:06,439 --> 01:28:08,759
Speaker 1: and I on a good bear hunt, that's the truth.

1475
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:12,400
Speaker 1: I mean, last I was in Saskatchewan, I did not

1476
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:15,400
Speaker 1: kill a bear, and uh it was because I was

1477
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:19,800
Speaker 1: breaking on. I was being really selective, and we were

1478
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:23,080
Speaker 1: at this wilderness bait that literally you would run bears

1479
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: off when you got there, and you would run bears

1480
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 1: off when you left. And we hunted about eight hours

1481
01:28:29,240 --> 01:28:33,320
Speaker 1: a day, and we figured in in in in six

1482
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,840
Speaker 1: full days of hunting, the longest period of time that

1483
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 1: we were not looking at a bear was about a

1484
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 1: two hour stretch. So I mean you go looking at

1485
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 1: I never did the math, but I mean, you know, uh,

1486
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:51,679
Speaker 1: forty eight hours of bear hunting and uh, every day

1487
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:53,760
Speaker 1: we'd have about a two hour stretch where there was

1488
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:56,840
Speaker 1: not a bear within ten yards of us. I mean

1489
01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:00,960
Speaker 1: we saw bear fights, bear breeding, three legs, bears, bears

1490
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 1: with Maine, bears climbing trees, bears you know coming up

1491
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: to your blind. I mean we saw more bear stuff

1492
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:12,760
Speaker 1: than you would in a lifetime of any other kind

1493
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 1: of Huney. That's the appeal of it, Mark, Yeah, I

1494
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 1: can see that being pretty interesting. Um yeah, I'm I

1495
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:23,680
Speaker 1: am bummed that I can't do it this year. I

1496
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 1: really was hoping this would be the year to make

1497
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:28,759
Speaker 1: it happen. Unfortunately I can't get a tag here in Michigan.

1498
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:32,720
Speaker 1: But next year, I think, uh, I think it's in

1499
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:37,479
Speaker 1: the cards. So what what I wanna end with is

1500
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:40,479
Speaker 1: just a little bit I'd love to hear from you

1501
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: on why all hunters or why I think I think

1502
01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:48,719
Speaker 1: you would say this. Tell me if you think otherwise.

1503
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 1: But I think you would make the argument that all

1504
01:29:52,080 --> 01:30:00,000
Speaker 1: hunters have a steak in bear hunting because the attack

1505
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 1: hacks on bear hunting, as I've heard to describe it,

1506
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:06,519
Speaker 1: are often a gateway to the larger enterprise of hunting.

1507
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:10,920
Speaker 1: I've heard you say that we need to guard the gate. Um.

1508
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,639
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that, man, Mark, You've really

1509
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 1: done your research, man, this is I appreciate that. Um. Yeah.

1510
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:22,559
Speaker 1: So when I came into the bear hunting world kind

1511
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 1: of in a professional sense, just through Bear Hunting magazine, Uh,

1512
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,599
Speaker 1: you know my per seven and really seven years ago

1513
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:35,040
Speaker 1: when I acquired this business was really kind of my

1514
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 1: first step onto the national bear hunting stage, and so

1515
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 1: my eyes just kind of popped wide open when I

1516
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:44,840
Speaker 1: saw what was happening in the bear world and how

1517
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:49,839
Speaker 1: much true persecution even in Michigan. Mark, Michigan Bear Hunters

1518
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 1: Association is a very well run organization and there. I mean,

1519
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 1: there wouldn't be bear hunting in Michigan if it wasn't

1520
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 1: four of these guys up there that are just truly fighters. Man,

1521
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 1: They're smart, they're they're working with legislation, legislators on a

1522
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:12,560
Speaker 1: monthly basis, year round. Uh, fighting for the rights of

1523
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: bear hunters in Michigan. Um. But but just what you know,

1524
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:19,320
Speaker 1: if you had told me that fifteen years ago, I

1525
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:22,680
Speaker 1: told you were a conspiracy theorist. Nobody's gonna mess with

1526
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:24,879
Speaker 1: our bear hunting. I mean, I live in rural Arkansas.

1527
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:28,640
Speaker 1: We we are not really persecuted here, but boy, and

1528
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:32,120
Speaker 1: lots of lots of parts of the work of the

1529
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:37,599
Speaker 1: country they are. And so the kind of world view

1530
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:40,720
Speaker 1: that I developed, or kind of solid developed around me,

1531
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:45,800
Speaker 1: is that, uh, well, let me back up. What I

1532
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: then perceived was that most of the hunting community that

1533
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 1: was not interested in bears. It was kind of almost

1534
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:55,720
Speaker 1: like the red headed step child of hunting was this

1535
01:31:55,840 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: bear hunting because it was persecuted. People were afraid that

1536
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:01,880
Speaker 1: they to say that they killed the bear of our dogs.

1537
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:03,840
Speaker 1: People were ashamed to say they killed the bear of

1538
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:07,120
Speaker 1: per bait because they thought it was controversial, or they

1539
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:10,280
Speaker 1: thought they would be persecuted for it in some way.

1540
01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:13,519
Speaker 1: And it was almost like people had this idea that Man,

1541
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:15,719
Speaker 1: I just wish that would go away. I just wish

1542
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:21,400
Speaker 1: the controversial stuff would go away. But what I think

1543
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 1: is the case is that in we have nothing left

1544
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 1: to give the anti hunting community. Um, we we really

1545
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 1: have nothing left to give them. The chief has been

1546
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:37,439
Speaker 1: blown away. Maybe a nineteen hundred we had stuff that

1547
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:40,960
Speaker 1: needed to be chopped off of the North American hunting block.

1548
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:48,200
Speaker 1: But in science and all these things have honed us

1549
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 1: down to a pretty tight, little working mechanism that has worked,

1550
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:56,080
Speaker 1: and it's caused wildlife to thrive, wild places to be preserved.

1551
01:32:56,439 --> 01:33:00,440
Speaker 1: So we got nothing left to give them. And um,

1552
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:04,639
Speaker 1: and bears are the low hanging fruit for the anti

1553
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 1: hunting agenda, and so we are essentially the gate for

1554
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:12,519
Speaker 1: the anti hunting community to come into the hunting world.

1555
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 1: And so even if you aren't a bear hunter, you

1556
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:19,639
Speaker 1: should care about the preservation of bear hunting because we're

1557
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:22,880
Speaker 1: the lowest rung on the ladder. And if that rung

1558
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:26,280
Speaker 1: is taken out, then all of a sudden, something else

1559
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 1: is the lowest rung. So what And and we know

1560
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:33,840
Speaker 1: that the anti hunting communities, uh, Peter Humane Society the

1561
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 1: United States. They are very vocal that their goal is

1562
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:42,760
Speaker 1: to end modern sport hunting. I mean they're not We're

1563
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:46,840
Speaker 1: not making that up like they are organizations. I did

1564
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:48,640
Speaker 1: a little research to other day for something I was right.

1565
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 1: And I want to say that the Human Society of

1566
01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 1: America on their twenty seventeen tax return, reported that they

1567
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:59,640
Speaker 1: had two hundred and fifty eight million dollars in the

1568
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:02,680
Speaker 1: bank at the end of the year. Uh. These are

1569
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:08,360
Speaker 1: massive organizations with massive amounts of money, and they are

1570
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:14,360
Speaker 1: using that. They're very strategically and incrementally trying to stamp

1571
01:34:14,439 --> 01:34:19,720
Speaker 1: out modern hunting. It's financially beneficial for them. I mean,

1572
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:23,719
Speaker 1: we're kind of their cash cow. We're easy to portray

1573
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:28,240
Speaker 1: in a certain ways so as to elicit generosity from

1574
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:33,120
Speaker 1: the uninformed. Um. And so we have because we don't

1575
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:35,760
Speaker 1: have two fifty million dollars in our bank account to

1576
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:39,920
Speaker 1: build ad campaigns and do stuff people like you and me, Mark,

1577
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: I mean, we gotta work our tails off if we

1578
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:48,080
Speaker 1: want this thing to survive generation. You know. And uh,

1579
01:34:48,280 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: and and again I would have said this was a

1580
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory fifteen years ago, I really would have I

1581
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 1: mean I just would have been like mad, never gonna happen.

1582
01:34:56,640 --> 01:35:00,879
Speaker 1: Our hunting is safe. Um, I don't see that way anymore.

1583
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:08,400
Speaker 1: And if bear hunting is gone, which I'm learly to

1584
01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: say that it's on a trajectory of that, but it

1585
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:14,519
Speaker 1: absolutely is, and I'll put a caveat it is on

1586
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,960
Speaker 1: that trajectory unless we do something, which we are doing

1587
01:35:18,040 --> 01:35:22,240
Speaker 1: something so that is changing the trajectory, but left undone

1588
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,080
Speaker 1: twenty years from now, Basically the legs would be taken

1589
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:29,320
Speaker 1: out of bear hunting. You would probably just be able

1590
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:31,479
Speaker 1: to spot in stock bears. And that's it. If you

1591
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 1: do that, you take the legs out of bear hunting,

1592
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:36,600
Speaker 1: no one will be bear hunters. Would be so difficult

1593
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:40,680
Speaker 1: to just would crush bear hunting. And then what's the

1594
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:43,719
Speaker 1: next thing on the agenda? And this may seem far fetched,

1595
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:46,160
Speaker 1: but I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

1596
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:48,559
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, what are they gonna what

1597
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 1: what will be the thing that they come after? You know,

1598
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 1: calling elk, you know, kind of sounds unfair to me that,

1599
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, these guys use those those bugles sound just

1600
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,000
Speaker 1: like a real elk, and they go out in the

1601
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:03,800
Speaker 1: woods in the breeding season, in the breeding season and

1602
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 1: blow that call and those help just come running up

1603
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:09,880
Speaker 1: and they shoot them. An't doesn't sound fair to me. Uh,

1604
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'm playing devils that I mean, Like the

1605
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:17,400
Speaker 1: point is is that the preservation of bear hunting is

1606
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:20,960
Speaker 1: really relevant to all of us if we value hunting

1607
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:23,680
Speaker 1: in general. And uh, and that's what I'm trying to do,

1608
01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:28,639
Speaker 1: Mark is just trying to uh bring that awareness to people.

1609
01:36:29,479 --> 01:36:32,720
Speaker 1: And uh. And really, if we're any any group of

1610
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:35,879
Speaker 1: people that is a minority big time, which we are.

1611
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:41,200
Speaker 1: I think we're four point five of the population. As hunters,

1612
01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:44,800
Speaker 1: we're four point five percent of the American population. The

1613
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:49,000
Speaker 1: only way that will persist through time is to unify.

1614
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:51,639
Speaker 1: And I think we can do it. I think there's

1615
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:53,960
Speaker 1: a lot of voices right now that are calling out

1616
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:57,920
Speaker 1: for unification. And uh, I mean even inside the white

1617
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:01,519
Speaker 1: tail community, you know, it's like, hey, don't dog that

1618
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 1: guy for the way that he hunts. Um. You know,

1619
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 1: he you don't know the shoes that he walks in,

1620
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:10,400
Speaker 1: you don't know how much time he has to hunt,

1621
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 1: you don't know the difficulty of where he lives. If

1622
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:16,519
Speaker 1: he kills a hundred and ten inch deer. It's awesome.

1623
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, don't dog, don't dog? You know, Mark Kenyon

1624
01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:25,679
Speaker 1: for being selective in Michigan. That's what he wants to do,

1625
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 1: you know. Unific Mark Kenyon alone. Uh, you know, just unification. Unification.

1626
01:37:32,320 --> 01:37:34,839
Speaker 1: We and so that means we have to look outside

1627
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:37,840
Speaker 1: of our own self interests, you know. I mean, because

1628
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,000
Speaker 1: there's some people that just don't care about bear hunting.

1629
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:43,599
Speaker 1: But if they're informed, if they understand the macro picture,

1630
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 1: they'll be like, you know what, maybe I should. And

1631
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:50,760
Speaker 1: I think it starts right, it's really practical. I mean,

1632
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 1: the solution to changing the hunting culture to a position

1633
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 1: of unity is is that inside your hunting camps you

1634
01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:03,639
Speaker 1: don't talk disparaging about somebody that hunts in a certain

1635
01:38:03,680 --> 01:38:06,000
Speaker 1: way or a guy that killed a bear with dogs.

1636
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:09,559
Speaker 1: You you venerate these things, even if you don't want

1637
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 1: to do it, you know. Um. And I've seen a

1638
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:16,280
Speaker 1: lot of people kind of turned the corner and kind

1639
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:20,120
Speaker 1: of go okay, now I see why it's valuable that

1640
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,439
Speaker 1: there are seventeen states that have hound seasons. I mean,

1641
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 1: this is America, man, and it's working. Bears are thriving.

1642
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:30,680
Speaker 1: Let the guys run their dogs, um, you know, be

1643
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:33,760
Speaker 1: handing over bait. It's like, yeah, I see the benefits

1644
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 1: of that, to be selective, um, to to set an

1645
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 1: animal up for an ethical shot, to be able to

1646
01:38:40,760 --> 01:38:42,680
Speaker 1: have a good opportunity if you don't have a lot

1647
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:46,080
Speaker 1: of time to hunt. It's like all these benefits and

1648
01:38:46,080 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 1: and and I think us talking about it helps people

1649
01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:54,799
Speaker 1: see that. And and uh, we'll bring unity, which unity

1650
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:58,559
Speaker 1: produces strength. And uh, that's what we've got to have

1651
01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 1: to calm about the challenges that we have. You know. So, yeah,

1652
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:07,360
Speaker 1: you make a you make a lot of strong, strong points.

1653
01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 1: I I'm right there with you. I'm glad that there's

1654
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 1: someone who's speaking to this stuff in particular on the

1655
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:18,040
Speaker 1: on the front with bears, because, as you've alluded to,

1656
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:20,880
Speaker 1: sometimes that that side of our hunting community doesn't get

1657
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:24,840
Speaker 1: as much of that positive advocacy as it probably needs.

1658
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:29,200
Speaker 1: And um, and you make an interesting point with the

1659
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:32,400
Speaker 1: guard the gate kind of metaphor for the situation. You're right,

1660
01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:35,000
Speaker 1: I think what's next if we start losing things there?

1661
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:38,599
Speaker 1: So I hope that coming out of this conversation, there's

1662
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:40,320
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of people that are that are

1663
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:43,760
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more interested in exploring this whole

1664
01:39:43,760 --> 01:39:46,000
Speaker 1: idea of bear hunting and if nothing else, at least

1665
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:50,479
Speaker 1: being an ally to the bear hunting community. If people

1666
01:39:50,600 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 1: listening are intrigued, want to learn more about this, and

1667
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,559
Speaker 1: they want to check out all of the many different

1668
01:39:57,560 --> 01:39:59,519
Speaker 1: types of content that you're putting out there into the world,

1669
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:03,080
Speaker 1: where can they go to find all that, Clay, You know,

1670
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:05,360
Speaker 1: most of what we're doing right now is just branded

1671
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 1: as Bear Hunting Magazine, so they can check out our

1672
01:40:09,479 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 1: YouTube channel, which we've got a lot of videos up,

1673
01:40:12,640 --> 01:40:15,519
Speaker 1: so that's Barning Magazine YouTube. We have a podcast, Burning

1674
01:40:15,560 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 1: Magazine podcast um, and then our print magazine, Bear Hunting Magazine.

1675
01:40:20,320 --> 01:40:22,759
Speaker 1: We're the only print bear Huney magazine in the world

1676
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 1: and uh produce a cool magazine. UM. So yeah, that's

1677
01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:29,599
Speaker 1: where people can find us. We're on all the social

1678
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:33,120
Speaker 1: social networks, you know, we're Burning Magazine and then I'm

1679
01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:36,800
Speaker 1: I'm on you know, Instagram, just as Clay newcome as well.

1680
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:41,920
Speaker 1: But perfect it's good stuff. I've I've enjoyed everything you've

1681
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:45,240
Speaker 1: put out and uh i am I'm a consumer myself

1682
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:47,559
Speaker 1: and enjoy it. So I highly recommended to anyone else

1683
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:50,960
Speaker 1: out there and Clay, Uh, I appreciate taking the time

1684
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,759
Speaker 1: to do this is fun. Yeah, thank you, Mark, really

1685
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:57,960
Speaker 1: thank you for having me on man. One of these days,

1686
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:01,160
Speaker 1: I'd love to meet one of your mews or learn

1687
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 1: a little bear hunting from you someday. So watch out,

1688
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:06,679
Speaker 1: I might be might be seeking you out. Yeah, let's

1689
01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:11,720
Speaker 1: do it. Let's do it all right, And that is

1690
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 1: episode three. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed

1691
01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:18,759
Speaker 1: that one as much as I enjoyed recording it. Um

1692
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:21,479
Speaker 1: as I've been letting me know. Make sure to head

1693
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:24,720
Speaker 1: over to the meat eater dot com check out all

1694
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 1: of our turkey content. We're just pumping out an insane

1695
01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:30,960
Speaker 1: number of turkey hunting articles, really good stuff. I'm actually

1696
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:34,519
Speaker 1: publishing five new articles this week talking to all sorts

1697
01:41:34,560 --> 01:41:37,719
Speaker 1: of different expert turkey hunters. So if you are getting

1698
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:39,960
Speaker 1: out there after some thunder chickens, you gotta check this

1699
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:43,760
Speaker 1: stuff out. It will help you. So with that out

1700
01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:46,720
Speaker 1: of the way, I'm wishing you well, keeping you all

1701
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:52,240
Speaker 1: in mind until next time. Stay wired to hard