1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: and Grimm and Mild from Aaronminkie. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: On November eighth, fifteen forty one, Queen Catherine Howard was 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: brought to a small room to sit opposite Thomas Cranmer, 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: Archbishop of Canterbury. The Archbishop had assured King Henry the 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: Eighth a few days prior that his interrogation would be 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: harsh and merciless, that he would import on the King's 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: young bride the severity of her crimes and scare her 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: into full honesty. But when Cranmore saw the young girl, 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: he felt his resolve drain away. She was weeping, already 11 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: frantic with grief and terror, her bloodshot eyes darting around 12 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: the room as if an executioner's blade could appear at 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: any moment. But she also looked so small, so young. 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: She was a nineteen year old girl, and she was 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: in a chair that looked far too big for her. 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Grandmar really had all the information already that his investigation 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: really needed. Only two weeks ago, the allegations had just 18 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: been a rumor, a single rumor from a single source. 19 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: The claim was this, that the new queen had been 20 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: less than virginal when she had married the king. Someone 21 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: had informed the archbishop that in Catherine's home growing up, 22 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: she had not one but two affairs, first with her 23 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: music teacher and then with her grandmother's secretary. Did you 24 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: or did you not? Cranmar began, as soon as Catherine 25 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: had caught her breath, have a sexual relationship with your 26 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: music teacher, Henry Mannox when you were living with your grandmother, 27 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: the dowager Duchess in Lambeth. Catherine wailed, no, sir, it 28 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: was a flirtation, that's all. He never knew me, and 29 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: the way a husband knows his wife. I have only 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: ever been true to King Henry. And what of a secretary? 31 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: Some time later, a man named Francis Derham? Did you 32 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: know him? Intimately? Catherine's breath began to quicken erratically. Cranmar 33 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: noticed her cheeks and dressed sleeves were both wet with tears. 34 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: Be honest, child, Granmar said, The Lord is merciful to 35 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: those who are honest. As almost an afterthought, he added, 36 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: I have already spoken to both men. Catherine didn't respond, 37 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: and Cranmar continued, you and Derham called each other husband 38 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: and wife. Did you not, Catherine nodded, Were you formally 39 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: bound to Earham? The archbishop continued, still unable to quite 40 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: locate the harsh tone that he had rehearsed. Did you 41 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: lie with him? Once more? Katherine nodded her head. We 42 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: did lie together two or three times in my bed 43 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: in the maidens chamber when I lived in Lambeth. But 44 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: I never betrayed King Henry. I never betrayed my husband 45 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: or sinned against him in any way. But she had 46 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: already said enough. She had betrayed the king, betrayed him 47 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: by pretending to be a virgin in a lie by omission, 48 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: humiliated the king by now letting the whole world know 49 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: that he had been fooled by a teenager. Catherine broke 50 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: down in sobs. As he left, the archbishop quietly whispered 51 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: to the guards that they should remove any items from 52 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: her chamber that might allow her to commit suicide. Katherine 53 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: Howard and King Henry the Eighth had only been married 54 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: about sixteen months, and now with her past revealed, she 55 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: knew that her time as queen was over. With Henry's history, 56 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: she would be lucky to make it out with her 57 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 1: head for a little while, it seemed as though she might. 58 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: After her interrogation, Catherine was sent away from court to 59 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: Sion Abbey. It seemed as though the King was going 60 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: to show her mercy. Her arrangement with Francis Dirham could 61 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: technically qualify as a pre contract, which would mean her 62 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: marriage to Henry was invalid, getting him off the hook easy. 63 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: Katherine would have to give up her jewels and possessions 64 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: and live in exile, away from court for the rest 65 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: of her life. It looked as though that was what 66 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: was going to happen. It looked that way for exactly 67 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: three days. Three days after Katherine Howard's interrogation, Francis Dirham revealed, 68 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: under torture something else about Queen Catherine, something that the 69 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: King wouldn't be able to look upon with mercy. From 70 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: that moment, Catherine's fate was sealed. I'm danishwartz and this 71 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: is noble blood. When Catherine Howard, motherless girl, was eight 72 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: years old, she was sent to live at the estate 73 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: of her father's stepmother, her stepgrandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk. 74 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: The Dowager Duchess seemed to collect wards she had about 75 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: a dozen or so girls under her care, mostly the 76 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: daughters of poorer relations, and the idea was that under 77 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: the dowager Duchess's supervision, the girls would learn the skills 78 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: of court and aristocracy, although in effect supervision was a 79 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: little lax. The year Katherine Howard turned thirteen, two major 80 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: things happened. First, her cousin Anne Boleyn was beheaded for 81 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: adultery during her marriage to King Henry the eighth. Second, 82 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: Katherine Howard began a flirtation with her music teacher, a 83 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: man named Henry Mannox, who had been hired to teach 84 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: the girls how to play the Virginals. Mannox was exactly 85 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: the type of man that Catherine would fall in love 86 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: with for the rest of her life. He was every 87 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: stereotype of a poetic musician, moody, romantic, wildly passionate. We 88 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: don't know how old Mannix was at the time. He 89 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: could have been a teenager himself somewhere around nineteen, or 90 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: he could have been approaching forty. Either way, it was 91 00:06:55,640 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: not a relationship that an extremely young aristocratic men should 92 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: have been engaged in, especially not in a world in 93 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: which a woman's sexual purity was her primary currency. Catherine, 94 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: for her part, refused to let Mannox go all the way. 95 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: The relationship occurred mainly in the hiding spots around the 96 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: estate grounds, where they could kiss each other and whisper 97 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: words of love into each other's ears. That's where the 98 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 1: Dowager Duchess found them kissing in an alcove near the chapel. 99 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: The Dowager Duchess slapped Katherine twice and forbade the couple 100 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: from ever seeing each other again. The warning didn't deter 101 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: the pair. I don't know why you're still seeing her, 102 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: said Mary Lassells one day to Mannix. Mary Lassell's was 103 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: another young woman under the Dowager Duchess's lack supervision, but 104 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: lower ranked than Katherine, and so she felt a sort 105 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: of kinship with Mannox, who was more or less irvant. 106 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: She's much too high born for you, Mary said, she's 107 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: never going to marry you. You know that, right. Mannax 108 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: sneered and curled his lip. He took a step closer 109 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: to Mary Lassells and told her that he already knew 110 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: Catherine Howard by her private parts. And he said, she's 111 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: already promised her maidenhead to me. For Mary Lassell's word 112 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: got around and back to Katherine Howard what Mannox had said. 113 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: She ended their relationship the next day in the estates orchard. 114 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: Mannox pleaded that he was just so far in love 115 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: with her that he didn't know what he said, but 116 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: Catherine didn't care. Besides, Mary Lassell's had been right. She 117 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: was too high born for him. That's why teenage Catherine 118 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: felt as though she was a much better fit for 119 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: Francis Dearham, the Dowager, just as Secretary Darrem already had 120 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: a reputation and seduced a good percentage of the women 121 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: at the estate, including Katherine's Owes secretary. In fact, it 122 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: was she who recommended dear Him to Catherine, praising him 123 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: so highly that Katherine couldn't help but be intrigued. It 124 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 1: was the type of whirlwind passion that only a teenager 125 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: can have. Within months, they were calling each other husband 126 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: and wife, planning for an imaginary future together. They sent 127 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: each other gifts and wrote each other letters. Katherine, still 128 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: under her grandmother's custody, didn't have the income to buy 129 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: the dresses she wanted, and so Dearham bought her beautiful 130 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: fabric and taught her which dressmaker to go to. I'll 131 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: pay you back, I promise, Catherine said. Dearham just smiled. 132 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: Though the girls the dowager Duchess's estate slept in a 133 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: single room, the maiden's chamber, and though the girls usually 134 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: slept to a bed, there were still ways for girls 135 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: to entertain male visitors. The maidens chamber was locked every night, 136 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: to preserve the girl's virtue, of course, but Catherine had 137 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: an answer for that. While her friends giggled and encouraged her, 138 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: Katherine snuck into the dowager Duchess's chamber while her stepgrandmother 139 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: was sleeping and stole the key, quickly making a copy 140 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: and replacing it. Men snuck into the room. Then Katherine 141 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: wasn't the only one of the wards who had an 142 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: illicit boyfriend. The men brought with them wine and strawberries 143 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: and apples, and the boys and girls would laugh and 144 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: talk or sneak off to beds together until one or 145 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: two in the morning. We can be almost certain that 146 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: Dearman Katherine, who by this point had been spending every 147 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: moment together, were having sex. Dearham privately assured his friends 148 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: that he knew enough to ensure that Katherine wouldn't get pregnant. Meanwhile, Mannox, 149 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: bitter music teacher, was furious at Katherine and her new paramour. 150 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: In his neatest script, he wrote a letter to the 151 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: Dowager Duchess informing her that if she were to come 152 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: to the maidens chamber an hour or so after she 153 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: normally went to bed, she would see something she wouldn't 154 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: like very much, involving a certain one of her secretaries. 155 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: Mannix anonymously left the note in the Dowager Duchess's pew 156 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: in the chapel so she would find it. That night, 157 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: she stormed into the maidens chamber to catch not Katherine 158 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: and Dearham, but a man named Hastings, another one of 159 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: her secretaries, who had already been caught once flirting with 160 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: one of the other girls. Katherine was in the here, 161 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: but Catherine knew who the note had been written by, 162 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: and she knew that it had been intended for her, 163 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and Dearham agreed. Puffing out his chest, Dearham confronted Mannix, 164 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 1: telling him that his behavior made it appear as though 165 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: he never loved Catherine at all. Mannix called him a cad. 166 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: Two jealous men dressing each other down over their secret 167 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: love affair. It was like a scene from Gossip Girl, 168 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: half a millennium before its time. People knew that Derrim 169 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: and Catherine were having an affair people other than the 170 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 1: Dowager Duchess. But people also liked Catherine. She was a 171 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: vivacious and funny and entertaining Plus she was high ranking. 172 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: They had no reason to rad her out or risk 173 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: incurring the wrath of her grandmother for being the ones 174 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: to deliver the bad news. But like almost all wildly 175 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: passionate love affairs, the one between Derehm and Catherine became 176 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: less exciting. Catherine stopped being entranced by Dearham when she 177 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: was presented with a new, gilded opportunity. Her family connections 178 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: had secured her a position as a lady in waiting 179 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: for the new Queen Anne of Cleaves, who would be 180 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: arriving to England later that fall. In the same apple 181 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: orchard where she had broken up with Mannix, Katherine Howard 182 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: told Dearham that she was leaving. His version of the 183 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: story involves her weeping with sorrow. Her version is her 184 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: losing her temper at his insistence that they stayed together. 185 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: It's possible both of her. She cried, and she lost 186 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: her temper, and she left Dereham, thinking that there was 187 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: still a chance they were going to end up together. 188 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: But there wasn't. She was just going. Katherine had grown 189 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: up thinking her house in Lambeth was grand. She had 190 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: no idea what would await her at the court of 191 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth. So many people, so many dances, so 192 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: much food, so much to learn For the confident girl 193 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: who had only ever been the queen b of the 194 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: band of teenagers in the maidens Chamber, she was paid 195 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: ten pounds a year. With her first paycheck, she sent 196 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: money back to dear Him to repay him for the 197 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: fabric he had bought her. The new Queen of England, 198 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: Anne of Cleave's, wasn't set to arrive for another few months, 199 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: so in the meantime the new ladies got to know 200 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: each other and got to know the men of court. 201 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: For Catherine, that meant being instantly drawn to a gentleman 202 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: named Thomas Culpepper. Culpepper was tall and athletic, the type 203 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: of man that Henry kept around him because he made 204 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: him feel young again. Culpepper, for his part, had an 205 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: incredibly checkered past. There was a rumor about him being 206 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: convicted of raping a woman in the village and murdering 207 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: a villager who saw them, only to get off without 208 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: consequences with a royal pardon. Catherine knew none of that. 209 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: She only saw the handsome, charismatic man that women seemed 210 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: to gravitate towards, like hummingbirds to a flower, and Culpepper 211 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: saw Catherine, a stunningly gorgeous girl of sixteen. Every contemporary 212 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: description of Katherine Howard has that in common, the understanding 213 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: that Catherine was uniquely pretty. For a few weeks, Culpepper 214 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: and Catherine engaged in a typical court flirtation. Catherine would 215 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: report back to her fellow ladies in waiting, giggling, helping 216 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: to decipher everything that Culpepper had said to her that day. 217 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: Catherine knew that her virtue at court would be essential 218 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: in ensuring that she make an advantageous marriage, and so 219 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: when Culpepper started making sexual overtures expecting her to come 220 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: to bed, she declined, even as he professed his courtly love. 221 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: If he loved her, Catherine believed he would understand. But 222 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: Culpepper wasn't a man accustomed to sexual rejection or even delay. 223 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: With Catherine's refusal, he shrugged and set his sights upon 224 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: a new girl. It was Catherine Howard's first time getting 225 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: her heart broken. The other ladies in waiting saw her 226 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: spend days crying and ripping up his letters. Luckily, Catherine 227 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,359 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to wallow too long in heartbreak. Almost immediately 228 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: after Anne of Cleave's arrived in England, Henry the eighth 229 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: decided that he didn't care for her and set about 230 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: trying to arrange an end to their arranged marriage. In 231 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: the meantime, the king began doting on his new brides, 232 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: very pretty, very young lady in waiting, Katherine Howard. He 233 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: sent gifts and gave her land everyone saw, including Anne 234 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: of Cleaves, but she hoped it was just an affair. 235 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't. Henry secured the annulment from Anne of Cleaves 236 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: within a few months and married Catherine Howard so quickly 237 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: afterward that people assumed that she must be secretly pregnant. 238 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: In fact, Henry was just absolutely besotted with his new bride, 239 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: who was just sixteen or seventeen years old. Henry was fifty. 240 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: They were married the very same day that Henry's former minister, 241 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: Thomas Cromwell, was executed for securing the disastrous marriage to 242 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: Anne of Cleaves. The middle aged Henry was so amorous 243 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: to Catherine Howard that it almost embarrassed the rest of court. 244 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: He didn't take his hands off of her in public, 245 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: caressing her almost constantly, to the point where ambassadors noted 246 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: that he had never been this publicly affectionate with any 247 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: of his wives to this extent before. Of course, Henry 248 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: believed that his young bride was a virgin and that 249 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: he was the only man she had ever laid with. 250 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: Catherine was so young and so beautiful that she made 251 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: Henry feel as though he were back in his prime, 252 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: even as it became exceedingly obvious that he was not. 253 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: Pain in his legs from his long troublesome ulcers kept 254 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: getting worse. Henry had difficulty with impotence in the bedroom, 255 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: even as he made his attraction to Catherine increasingly obvious 256 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: outside the bedroom. Henry's doctors advised him to spend time 257 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: away from his new bride so that he could recuperate. 258 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: In the meantime, they put him on a weight loss 259 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: regiment and wrapped his injured leg in boiled olive, lee 260 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: eaves and murder. Henry's ill health and generally mercurial nature, 261 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: combined with his shame at his inability to perform in 262 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: the bedroom, meant that he spent most nights away from Catherine. 263 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: A year into their marriage, Catherine had no pregnancy to 264 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: show for it. Catherine knew full well what happened to 265 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: queens who didn't give Henry sons. As her relationship with 266 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: the King continued to strain, Catherine began to shut herself away, 267 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: unhappy and anxious, refusing to go to dances. Uncertain of 268 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: her future position. That summer strain or not, Katherine was 269 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: to accompany Henry on the Northern Progress, a show of 270 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: force and majesty to the rebellious northern parts of the country. Catherine, 271 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: as the beautiful young queen, was an essential prop for 272 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: the outing, to make Henry look all the more vital 273 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: and powerful with her at side. But Catherine took ill 274 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: on the journey, spending days and nights alone in her room. 275 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: When the King sent a servant to her chamber one night, 276 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: he found it bolted. The queen's ladies fretted about her listlessness, 277 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: but they also whispered about the way she gazed down 278 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: from her window at Thomas Culpepper, the young handsome man 279 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: in the King's entourage, who had caught her eye from 280 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: the moment that she had arrived at court. The way 281 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: she looked at him with her hand cupped in her palm, 282 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: it was almost like love. When the trip to the 283 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: north of the country ended and they all returned to 284 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: Hampton Court on October nine, Henry gave a speech giving 285 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: hearty thanks for his good life with Catherine and his 286 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: trust in their happy future together. The very next day, 287 00:20:54,320 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: everything would fall apart. Do you remember Mary Lassell's the 288 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: girl from Catherine's time with the Dowager Duchess Away from court, 289 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: Mary Lassell's brother John was reprimanding her for not being 290 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: able to secure a position in the new Queen's household. 291 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: Didn't you two know each other? John scoffed at her. 292 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: Mary Lassell's bristled at her brother's derision. Yes, I knew her. 293 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't even want to be in that household under 294 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: a queen like her. I remember how she behaved back 295 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: when she was in Lambeth. John paused and asked for 296 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: more details. Mary Lassell's told him about Henry Mannox and 297 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: Francis Dearham. Everybody knows the Queen wasn't so pure when 298 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: she married the King, Mary said. John stopped in his 299 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: tracks and demanded that Mary tell him everything she knew, 300 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: and John Lassell's, a devout Protestant reformer, went to tell 301 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: the arch Bishop, Thomas Cranmer. Cranmer was in a delicate position. 302 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: On one hand, this was just a rumor and he 303 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: didn't want to incur Henry's wrath over nothing. But on 304 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 1: the other hand, if he didn't tell Henry and somehow 305 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: word got out, he would be responsible. And so on 306 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: November two, in incredibly measured words, Granmar put the delicate 307 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: claims in writing in a letter and left it on 308 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: Henry's seat in Chapel. Henry was, of course outraged. He 309 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: didn't believe the rumors for a moment, but still he 310 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: demanded a full investigation. Man X and Dearham both confessed. 311 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: On November six, without telling Catherine Howard, Henry the Eighth 312 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: left Hampton Court and rode to Greenwich. She would never 313 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: see him again. Once Henry was done with a wife, 314 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: you wanted her out of sight at Greenwich, Henry held 315 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: a midnight meeting that lasted for six hours, in which 316 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: he and his ministers decided what to do. At one point, 317 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: Henry broke down in tears. Why have I had such 318 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: bad luck in meeting these ill conditioned women, he cried. 319 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: He grabbed a sword. Maybe I should just go and 320 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: kill her myself. However much pleasure she had in her sins, 321 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: it won't be half as much as her torture in death, 322 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: Henry's men subdued him. He really had been in love, 323 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: he thought, with his beautiful young fifth wife. The next day, 324 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: Catherine knew something was a mess. No one had told 325 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: her anything. The investigation had been completely secret, but Henry 326 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: was gone and had left no word about where he was. 327 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: She could scent something in the air. When her musicians 328 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: started to play, she silenced them. It's no time for dancing, 329 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: she said. That night, she was brought before Thomas Granmar, 330 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: where she confessed. Henry showed mercy enough that Catherine should 331 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: be spared death and a real imprisonment in favor of 332 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: a life of exile at Ccion House. But then a November, 333 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: under torture, Francis Dirham said something new. No, he promised 334 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: he had never slept with the Queen while she was 335 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: married to the king, but everyone knew Thomas Culpepper did. 336 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: Now there is no heart evidence to prove that Thomas 337 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: Culpepper and Catherine actually slept together. She went to the 338 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: grave denying it, but soon details began to emerge. In 339 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: the spring after her wedding, feeling distant from Henry and 340 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: lonely at court, Katherine and Thomas began exchanging love letters. 341 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: They sent little gifts back and forth. Their letters became 342 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: more and more emotional and personal. I trust in you 343 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: that you will always be as you have promised me, 344 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: Katherine wrote. She signed the letter yours as long as 345 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: life endures, and that summer Culpepper had been in the 346 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: large group of courtiers who accompanied Henry and Catherine on 347 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: the northern progress. Had she really been sick when she 348 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: insisted on staying alone in her room? Ladies were interrogated. 349 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: Jane Rochford confessed that at one of the stops, Culpepper 350 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: used a secret door that led up backstairs directly to 351 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: Queen Catherine's bed chamber. Other ladies were interrogated about whether 352 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: Catherine and Culpepper we're having an affair. I don't know 353 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: for certain. One lady said, I am inclined to believe 354 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: the queen, except except the Archbishop prompted, except the way 355 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: she looked at Culpepper from her window. I would have 356 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: believed her if I hadn't seen the way she gazed 357 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: at him. Catherine had been in love, and she hadn't 358 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: been able to hide it. Dearham was hanged, quartered and disemboweled. Culpepper, 359 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: as a gentleman, was simply beheaded. Meanwhile, Catherine waited at 360 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: Scion House, knowing her fate would be arriving swiftly. In January. 361 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: An act of attainder made it treason for a woman 362 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: to marry the king without plain declaration of having previously 363 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: lived in chase life. That was it. The final piece 364 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: had been put into place to ensure that Catherine would 365 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: receive the death that Henry wanted for her. Anne Boleyn 366 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: had been taken to the Tower of London under full 367 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: light of day. Catherine had the privilege of arriving at night, 368 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: although when the guards arrived at Zion House to take 369 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: her to the barge, she collapsed in a fit of panic. 370 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: Lucky it was dark during her boat ride down the 371 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: Thames or else she would have seen the rotting heads 372 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 1: of Francis Dirham and Thomas Culpepper leering down at her 373 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: from London Bridge. That night, locked in the Tower of London, 374 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: she heard the gates playing shut and the locks on 375 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: the doors turn. She was told that she would be 376 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: killed two days later. After her final confession, Catherine made 377 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: a request that the guard take a back. Couldn't refuse. 378 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: She asked for the block that she would be be 379 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: headed on to be brought to her chamber so that 380 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: she could practice. Catherine wanted to at least die with 381 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: grace or as a little humiliation as possible, and she 382 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: had heard stories of botched executions, including the execution of 383 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: Thomas Cromwell, which it took four, five, even as many 384 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: as ten strokes for the head to fully come off, 385 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: and so for hours on her last day on earth, 386 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: Catherine Howard kneeled in her cell at the Tower of 387 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: London and raised and lowered the pretty neck on the 388 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: black block. When the time finally came and she was 389 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: escorted to the very spot where her cousin Anne Boleyn 390 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: had died only six years earlier, Catherine knew exactly what 391 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: to do MH. So she shook. She lowered her head 392 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: into the valley of the block with well practiced ease, 393 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: and the executioner took her head off with a single blow. 394 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: She had gone from orphan to lady to queen. Two 395 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: dead in two years. Katherine Howard hadn't yet reached her 396 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: twenty one birthday. That's the very short, tragic life of 397 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: Catherine Howard. Stick around after a brief sponsor break to 398 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: hear a little bit more about the consequences of the 399 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: investigation of Catherine's infidelity. Dearham Culpepper, Jane Rockford, and of 400 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: course Katherine lost their lives in the aftermath of the 401 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: investigation of Catherine's affairs, But there are two ladies whose 402 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: fates fascinate me. During the course of the investigation, two 403 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: of Catherine's ladies were caught gossiping idly about the king. 404 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: What kind of man is this king? I mean, how 405 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: many wives really have? The two women were jailed for 406 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: their words, which just goes to show. If I had 407 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: been alive in Tudor, England, with the way that I 408 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: talked casually to my friends about my research for this podcast, 409 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: things would not have ended well for me. I also 410 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: want to offer a quick note about Catherine Howard's age 411 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: and her sexual activity. It's troubling it isn't quite possible 412 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: to apply our modern understanding of the age of consent 413 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: onto the behavior of historical figures in the sixteenth century. 414 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: Five years ago, a girl was considered a woman as 415 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: soon as she began having her period, and a teenager 416 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: marrying a man twice or even three times her age, 417 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: far from being seen as an active abuse or pedophilia, 418 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: was unfortunately incredibly common. Still, it's important to understand that 419 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: these are real people. Katherine was a teenager, and her 420 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: decision making and experiences were those of someone incredibly young. Personally, 421 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: I find it most helpful not to make broad declarations 422 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: about Katherine as a villain or a victim, but just 423 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: to do my best to try to understand her with 424 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: the most empathy I possibly can. Noble Blood is a 425 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from 426 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky. The show was written and hosted by Danis 427 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: Schwartz and produced by Aaron Mankey, Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, 428 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Noble Blood is on social media at 429 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: Noble Blood tales, and you can learn more about the 430 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: show over at Noble blood Tails dot com. For more 431 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 432 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 433 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: M HM