1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Stranger Rivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron making for the best experience listen 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: with headphones. 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: This episode includes discussion of violence and sexual abuse that 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 2: while they almost definitely did not actually happen, maybe disturbing 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: to some listeners. 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 3: Surface readings register of but minimum requirements Tomorrow go below 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 3: and bring up the Young Gargon specimen. 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 4: Now the decision depends on its reactions. 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: Wait, Captain, I have found evidence of intelligent beings on 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: this planet. 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 5: Of what concerned our foreign being? 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: Of none to you, thor, just as you were so 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: unconcerned when you destroyed the small creature so bravely. 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 3: It was no more than an insects, but it had life, 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 3: and that life you had to take satisfy your endless 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 3: hunger for killing China. 18 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 6: Both of you. 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 7: Proceed, bring the gargain that will not be necessary. Captain. 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: I'm Toby Ball and this is Strange Arrivals. Episode eight, 21 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: The Case of Emma Woods, Part three. In the past 22 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: two episodes, we looked at the experiences of a woman 23 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: going by the pseudonym Emma Woods, who worked with UFO 24 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: researcher David Jacobs to uncover memories of what he believed 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: to be alien abductions, violent alien abductions. We saw how 26 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: Jacobs allegedly used hypnotic regression in a manner that was 27 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: both scientifically and ethically unsound. He also seemed to create 28 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: a drama in the quote unquote real world, a drama 29 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: that involved Emma, two other research subjects, Elizabeth and Brian, 30 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: and hostile human alien hybrids. These hybrids apparently did not 31 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: want Jacobs to continue with his research and threatened him 32 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: with harm if he did. In an attempt to convince 33 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: these hybrids that he wasn't researching abductions, he hypnotically implanted 34 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: a suggestion to Emma that she had multiple personality disorder 35 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: and that was what he was researching. The idea was 36 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: that the hybrids would read Emma's mind, find that information, 37 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: and be thrown off track. Jacobs even came up with 38 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: aliases for himself that he wanted Emma to use when 39 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: she contacted him, aliases like Aloha Norton, I'm not kidding 40 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: researcher and writer Jack Brewer. 41 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 4: His premise was, you need to call me another name 42 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 4: and write in code to me, because when the hybrids 43 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 4: use their mind control on you. I want the hybrids 44 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 4: to think that Aloha Norton is an expert in multiple 45 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 4: personality disorder and that I am studying you because I 46 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 4: have diagnosed you with multiple personality disorder. 47 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: It is frankly a weird, weird scenario and it doesn't 48 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: even have an internal logic. You see, at this time, 49 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: Jacobs was very public about his abduction research. 50 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 4: Emma pointed out to him, this doesn't even make sense. 51 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 4: For instance, you publish books about studying this, and you're 52 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 4: on the lecture circuit talking about hybrids all the time. 53 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: So what was going on here? Did Jacobs really believe 54 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: that hybrids were here on Earth and that they wanted 55 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: to use violence to stop his research or was there 56 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: some other reason for Jacobs to concoct this odd drama. 57 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 2: Emma Woods thinks it may simply have been a matter 58 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: of creating material for his next book. 59 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: It may have been just a big exciting drama for 60 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: his book. He had told me that he was going 61 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: to write a book and it was going to feature Elizabeth, 62 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 3: Brian Reid's mother who uses the pseudonym Alison, and me 63 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: and the three of us. He had done a huge 64 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: amount of hypnosis sessions with I think he did something 65 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 3: like possibly forty five hypnosis sessions with Alison. He did 66 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: thirty seven with me, and he did well over one 67 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: hundred with Elizabeth. He very much wanted my hypnosis to 68 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: dovetail with elizabeths and he wanted me to be in 69 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 3: contact with her, and I initially refused because I was 70 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 3: worried that if I was in contact with her, it 71 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: would affect my hypnosis. 72 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 2: At this point, Emma didn't know that her hypnotic regressions 73 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: were already being compromised. Jacobs was constantly introducing narratives to 74 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: her while she was under hypnosis. 75 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 3: I didn't want her to know my identity, but eventually 76 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: I realized that he'd already told her my identity, and 77 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: then I just gave into the pressure. 78 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: This is not ethical research behavior. Jacobs should not have 79 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: been sharing subjects identities with each other, particularly if a 80 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 2: subject had specifically said that she didn't want her identity shared, 81 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: but he did so anyway. Elizabeth claimed that hybrids were 82 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: controlling her body and sending threatening text messages to Jacobs 83 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: from her computer. 84 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: When Elizabeth started having hybrid instant messaging, Jacobs told me 85 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: that he was going on the run from the hybrids 86 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: because they were after him, and basically he just went 87 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 3: on holiday to Cape Cod, which he did every year 88 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 3: in August. 89 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 2: So Jacobs decided to go on the run from the 90 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: hostile hybrids. He chose to hide out in Cape Cod, 91 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: where he normally vacationed. Anyway, if you were really trying 92 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 2: to hide, would you go to your annual vacation spot 93 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: or did he use his vacation as a way to 94 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: heighten the drama that he created. Regardless, Emma was becoming 95 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: skeptical of Elizabeth's claims that hybrids were coming to her 96 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: house and texting Jacobs from her computer, she suggested that 97 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: Jacobs take a very basic step to confirm that what 98 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 2: Elizabeth was telling him was true. 99 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 3: I said to him at that point, well, maybe you 100 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 3: should ask Elizabeth to set up a webcam to make 101 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: sure that this is real, because it was so far 102 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 3: out that I started to have doubts about Elizabeth. And 103 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: then I felt guilty about that because of you know, 104 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: she'd been sort of nice to me that I started 105 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 3: tipped out about who. And then he kind of said, well, 106 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: I can't ask her to do that, And then he 107 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 3: did ask her and she had all these excuses for 108 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 3: why she couldn't do. 109 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 4: It again Jack Brewer, for reasons that only Elizabeth and 110 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 4: her creator might know. She never agreed to do that again. 111 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 4: I think a more skeptical mindset would have a pretty 112 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 4: good idea why that might be. 113 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: Elizabeth is an interesting player in this drama. She was 114 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: presumably undergoing a similar hypnotic regression experience with Jacob's as 115 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: Emma was. But then there's this strange twist in the 116 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: tail where she's actively originating emails that are supposedly being 117 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: composed by hybrids. 118 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 6: The what's interesting about this Elizabeth character is back when 119 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 6: Jeff and I were doing Katopia, we were reaching out 120 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 6: to everyone. 121 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 2: This is researcher, writer, and podcaster Jeremy Vaney, who, along 122 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: with his podcast partner the late Jeff Ritzman, were among 123 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: the first to cover this story on their Peratopia podcast. 124 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 6: We reached out to Elizabeth and she actually indicated that 125 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 6: she wasn't really thrilled with what was going on. She 126 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 6: didn't necessarily even believe it herself, but she didn't want 127 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 6: to speak publicly because she didn't want any repercussions from Jacobs. 128 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 6: I got the idea essentially doing what he ended up 129 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 6: doing with Emma Woods, which I guess could hurt her 130 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 6: career somehow or her family maybe you know, that type 131 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 6: of thing. So she just didn't want that put on her. 132 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 6: So I don't know how true that is, because I mean, 133 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 6: if she's the one who's doing the texts to date 134 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 6: schif gods, then presumably she's in on the lie. 135 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 3: So I started to realize that there was something really 136 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 3: wrong with Elizabeth story because of the hybrid I am, 137 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 3: and the threats and Jacob's being on the run, and 138 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: it just it was so ridiculous that started to break through. 139 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 3: But I still thought that he believed it. At that point. 140 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: I was also still having hypnosis and remembering a lot 141 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 3: of similar things, so I wasn't fully breaking out of it, 142 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: and I wasn't fully understanding it, but I was at 143 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: that point realizing that things were not okay. 144 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: In other words, despite doing hypnosis sessions where Jacobs was 145 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 2: reinforcing the real world drama involving Elizabeth, malicious hybrids and 146 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: threats against Jacobs, things had finally become so outlandish that 147 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: Emma began to doubt the narrative. Don't underestimate how difficult 148 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: this is to do. Once you have committed to a worldview, 149 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: it can be very hard to make peace with the 150 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: idea that you might be wrong with the hypnotic reinforcement added, 151 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: Emma showed great resilience to move away from Jacobs and Elizabeth. 152 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: He also wanted me to set up instant messengers so 153 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: that we could have three way instant messaging, and this 154 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: is after the hybrid instant messaging, and I think he 155 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 3: wanted me to be involved with that, and I just refused. 156 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: I just felt that there was even at that stage 157 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: when I was still being very intensively hypnotized and I 158 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 3: still wasn't really understanding, I could feel that I just 159 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: mustn't do that. I was starting to realize that things 160 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: were going really wrong. So I think possibly it was 161 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: just literally for his book. I think he also got 162 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 3: a lot of personal gratification from the sort of sexual 163 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: and violent aspects of it, so it may have been 164 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 3: my personal gratification as well. And other than that, I 165 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: don't know what his agenda would have been, but I 166 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: don't think he believed it. It took probably about eight months. 167 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 3: I think I went through this process of starting to 168 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 3: realize that this was not. 169 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: Okay again, Jeremy Vaney. 170 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 6: Something about her hybrids, going after David and going after Emma. 171 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 6: It just became too much. It became too much of 172 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 6: la an International Hybrid Spy and intrigue novella for her, 173 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 6: I think, and she just wanted out. 174 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 3: And then I eventually ended my association with him, and 175 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 3: he wanted to stay in contact with me, and he 176 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: was just sending me email saying, why aren't you talking 177 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: to me? I want, you know, Laudi blah. But I 178 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 3: felt like I had to kind of disengage from him 179 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 3: because I was a complete mess by the time I 180 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: ended it. I was in a really bad state and 181 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: it took me about three months to recover from the hypnosis. 182 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: And I think he didn't want to let me go. 183 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: This was in two thousand and seven, and while this 184 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: was the end of her sessions with David Jacobs, it 185 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: was not the end of the story. After the break, 186 00:11:51,320 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: strange arrivals will return in a moment. In two thousand 187 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: and seven, Emma Woods ended her work with David Jacobs. 188 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: He did not want her to discontinue the sessions, but 189 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: that was not all. He also didn't want the story 190 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: of his research efforts with her to become public. In 191 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, Emma began listening to the recordings 192 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: of the hypnosis sessions that Jacobs had sent her. The 193 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: session about multiple personality disorder was the final straw. 194 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: I listened to my hypnosis sessions and I heard the 195 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 3: MPD suggestions, and that shot me absolutely to the call, 196 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: and I decided I was going to make it known. 197 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 3: I sent an email with that audio cliff attached to 198 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: just about everybody I could find in the UFO field, 199 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: all the organizations, all the main known researchers, and that 200 00:12:58,640 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 3: made it public. 201 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: Finally, in January of twenty ten, an experiencer named Kim 202 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: Carlsberg published the first story about Emma's experience on her 203 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: blog out There Zone. Later that month, she published a 204 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: follow up post claiming she had heard through an intermediary 205 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: that Jacobs would sue anyone disclosing his work with Emma. 206 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: Kim altered some of her blog entries as a result 207 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: of this warning. She went on in the same post 208 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: to write, if anything happens to me as far as 209 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: my physical or mental well being or my reputation in 210 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: the near future, please investigate who knows whether her fears 211 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: were realistic, but it does indicate the paranoia that was 212 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 2: swirling around the world of alien abductions and ufology at 213 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: the time. Vaney and Richman picked up the story from 214 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: Carlsberg's blog and saw firsthand Jacob's efforts at obstruction. In February, 215 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: doctor Scott Lillienfeld, a psychology professor at Emory University, appeared 216 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: on the Paratope podcast to discuss hypnosis and its use 217 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: or misuse in UFO research. The Woods case, just recently 218 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: made public was a natural topic. Jacobs wanted to warn 219 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: Lillian Feld off, but in a bit of sitcom timing, 220 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: contacted Lilianfeld at the very moment he was being interviewed 221 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: on the podcast. 222 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 6: And we were actually running by one of the hypnosis 223 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 6: tapes by him that Jacobs had done with Emma Woods 224 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 6: and saying is this credible or what do you make 225 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 6: of this? And he actually told us during the interview 226 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 6: that Jacobs had found out we were interviewing him and 227 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 6: contacted him and said, hey, don't do the show. You 228 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 6: don't know all of what's going on, blah blah, you 229 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 6: know that sort of thing. 230 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: Vaney was undeterred. Later in twenty ten, UFO magazine published 231 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: his article Aliens Versus Predator The Incredible Visitations at Emma Woods, 232 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: which laid out in detail Emma's experience with Jacobs. Here too, 233 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: Jacob's tried to intervene, contacting publisher William Burns. 234 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 6: Jacobs actually called Burns. I think he played me the 235 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 6: answering machine tape message from Jacobs, who is irate? Who 236 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 6: is threatening to SNeW And Bill Burns actually told me 237 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 6: he had a conversation with him where he said to him, 238 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 6: you know, David, what are you gonna do. You're gonna 239 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 6: walk into a court of law and you're gonna say 240 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 6: all of this is true. You know, tell the judge 241 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 6: about these alien hybrids, and you're gonna somehow say that 242 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 6: you're being defined. How do you think that's gonna go? 243 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 6: So naturally he didn't do that, but it just it 244 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 6: makes you wonder, like is this guy even smart? Like 245 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 6: is he delusional? 246 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: I wanted to interview David Jacobs for the podcast to 247 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: get his take on his work with Emma Woods, but 248 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: my attempts to reach him when unanswered. He did, however, 249 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: create a web page with the rebuttal to the charges 250 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: made by Emma and others about his conduct. It was 251 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: titled Emma Woods The Real Story, but was taken down 252 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: a few months before this episode was published and hasn't 253 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: as yet been restored. It touched on a number of 254 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: aspects of his relationship and work with Emma. I was 255 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: concerned that using short clips provided by Emma of what 256 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: were much longer hypnosis sessions might not be fair to Jacobs. 257 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: Were there contexts that would make these brief moments more acceptable? 258 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: As I read his rebuttal, though, I quickly realized that 259 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: context was not the issue. The text on the website began. 260 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 5: Since two thousand and seven, Emma Woods, a pseudonym, has 261 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 5: made unfounded public accusations against me for the past nine years. 262 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 5: She has accused me of incompetence and negligence, criminally threatening 263 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 5: her family, intentionally imposing emotional distress and abuse upon her 264 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 5: in sexual perversion. These false charges are reflective of a 265 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 5: very disturbed person. After reviewing our communications, I have come 266 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 5: to realize that I did my very best for her 267 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 5: as far as I could, and it is clear that 268 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 5: I was much too kind to her and I should 269 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 5: have stopped working with her much earlier. This was a 270 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 5: major mistake. 271 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go through this document point by point. 272 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: I do want to touch on some parts of it, though, 273 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 2: and I think one of the things that I find 274 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: most telling about it is that his explanations exist in 275 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 2: the strange world that he co created with Emma and 276 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 2: other hypnosis subjects. It is the world of mass kidnappings, 277 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: sexual violence committed by aliens and hybrids, and a master 278 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: plan of colonization. I guess he really had no choice 279 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: but to stick with the overall narrative, but Bill Burns 280 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: was right that it is hard to take it seriously 281 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: as an explanation for real world acts. 282 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 5: Emma's intense isolation gave her abductors an unusual amount of 283 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 5: free reign over her life, as they were not constrained 284 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 5: by time or circumstance. Emma was alone nearly all of 285 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 5: the time. Thus her abductions were extremely frequent and at 286 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 5: all hours of the day and night. Between September twenty seventh, 287 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 5: two thousand and five and December ninth, two thousand and six, 288 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 5: violence against her and threats against me increased. Security for 289 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 5: the abduction phenomenon increases enormously when abductees help hybrids who 290 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 5: might or might not be living here. By June two 291 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 5: thousand and six, her abductors were seriously attempting to stop 292 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 5: her from talking with me, rather than simply telling her 293 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 5: not to deal with me, which they did many times. 294 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 5: They also engaged in increasingly physical and sexual violent behavior 295 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 5: against her when she continued to disobey. 296 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: He tried to explain some of his more notorious practices, 297 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: again within the narrative of a hostile alien and hybrid incursion. 298 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: He mentions a Betsy here, who's presumably another of his subjects. 299 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 5: The multiple personality disorder RUSE came up when I had 300 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 5: used a version of this for Betsy some months before 301 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 5: under an assumed name. I emailed her saying that I 302 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 5: was a multiple personality disorder researcher and she probably had 303 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 5: this condition. She left the message on her computer screen 304 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 5: in her head hybrids looked at it. When Emma's hybrids 305 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 5: were torturing her and threatening me, I decided to change direction. 306 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 5: I would once again become a quote multiple personality disorder 307 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 5: researcher unquote, and expressed to her that this was the 308 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 5: condition that allowed her to think that she was being abducted. 309 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 5: When I brought up the MPD diagnosis. We both laughed 310 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 5: throughout the discussion. I had hoped that my fictional MPD 311 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 5: diagnosis would cause the hybrids to reevaluate me as a 312 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 5: harmless person who did not believe them as testimony. 313 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: Here's a clip from the MPD diagnosis session. 314 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: Damn. 315 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 7: My opinion is that yours is a classic case and 316 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 7: that the only thing that will help you medication yours stories. 317 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 7: I'm only interested in the fact that those stories, because 318 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 7: multiple personalities are all different. As you know that in 319 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 7: multiple personality disorder comes out. I think that we've been 320 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 7: dealing with the four personalities here, or as he is, 321 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 7: in fact Muscile personality disorder. 322 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: The tape is a little difficult to understand, but he 323 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: is saying that he is only interested in her stories 324 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 2: because she has multiple personality disorder, and that he thinks 325 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: they are dealing with three or four separate personalities. But 326 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: the important thing is tone. Does it seem as though 327 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: this is a laughter filled conversation. Jacobs also tries to 328 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: make the request for Emma's unwatched panties seem more palatable. 329 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 2: He claims they had talked several times about the benefits 330 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: of getting some type of seamen sample after a sexual 331 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 2: assault so that the DNA could be analyzed. The chastity 332 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: belt episode is also brushed off. Is merely an idea 333 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 2: that had worked with another client and that he had 334 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: suggested once and then dropped when it wasn't followed up on. 335 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: And then there's this extraordinary passage about the increased hostility 336 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: towards abductees cooperating with Jacob's. 337 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 5: As Emma's hybrids were making progress with her to get 338 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 5: to me, they had also become extraordinarily violent. 339 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: Over his previous years of work, Jacob's claimed aliens and 340 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 2: hybrids had simply reprimanded abductees for their involvement with his research. 341 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 5: But once the alien hybrid program transitioned to a new 342 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 5: phase of assimilation on Earth, the very human looking hybrids 343 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 5: whom I term hubrids, became even more wary and paranoid 344 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 5: of my involvement. Their security measures increased enormously, often especially 345 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 5: designated security hybrid now accompanying aductees and hubrids on many 346 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 5: abduction events. His job was simple to protect the hubrids 347 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 5: and to make sure that the abductees remained completely silent 348 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 5: about their experiences. This was the case with Emma. 349 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: He writes the following about his decision to no longer 350 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: work with Emma. 351 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 5: I received an email from Betsy's hybrid's warning me about 352 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 5: Emma's people and seeing that Emma's hybrids were very aggressive, 353 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 5: more aggressive than his. This was disturbing to me. It 354 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 5: provided me with the final impetus to break off from Emma. 355 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 5: I told them that I would no longer do hypnosis 356 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 5: with her. Events were out of my control. I was 357 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 5: bowing out and I could not work with her anymore. 358 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 2: So Emma's hybrids were too violent and scared Jacob's off, 359 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 2: leaving Emma, presumably to face them alone. So is he 360 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 2: delusional or does he feel that he has the standing 361 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 2: to put forward a narrative like this and have people 362 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: believe him? 363 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 4: Jack Brewer, one of the recordings that she published, indicated 364 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 4: that when she confronted him with this, that Jacob's threatened 365 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 4: her that if it came down to public credibility between 366 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 4: the two of them, that he would win and he 367 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 4: would be believed about what had been taking place over 368 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 4: her in a nutshell. She was the wrong person to 369 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: threaten to keep quiet, She obviously did not. Many people 370 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 4: continued to support David Jacobs, as he had predicted a 371 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 4: battle of reputations would favor him, and that was true 372 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 4: to a certain extent. Richard Dolan was among those that 373 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 4: tried to argue there were extenuating circumstances for Jacobs's behavior. 374 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: Richard Dolan is a prominent pro UFO author. 375 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 4: However, he never produced these extenuating circumstances or back that up, 376 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 4: and it seemed to me there was a collective effort 377 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 4: that Dolan was part of from the UFO community to 378 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 4: not want to change streams, like we've built a lot 379 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 4: on Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs and we're just not 380 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 4: willing to change our mind about it. 381 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: Jeremy Vaney's efforts at exposing Jacob's misconduct with Emma also 382 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: met with hostility from the world of ufology. Remember, Vany 383 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 2: is not a professional skeptic. He, in fact, is an 384 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: experiencer who simply wants UFO research to be held to 385 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: a standard. 386 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 6: So we're in We're the in crowd. We're not like 387 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 6: some debunkers from outside of upology. This is actually happening 388 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 6: to us. But if this aspect of it were real, 389 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 6: we'd be all over it. Telling you that this that 390 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 6: we believe, this aspect of it is real, But no, 391 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 6: it goes the other way. In fact, we see what 392 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 6: looked to me to be potential crimes, if not crimes, 393 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 6: certainly unethical behavior. And to expose that got us nothing 394 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 6: but black lilisted from all of his cronies, all of 395 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 6: his people in this cottage industry, which you can speak 396 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 6: out about UFOs and things like that, like you can 397 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 6: dissect certain cases, but you're not allowed to sort of 398 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 6: speak truths to power about euthology itself. You're not allowed 399 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 6: to call into question all of you follow she itself. 400 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 6: That's a no no. And so to do that again 401 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 6: is to be blacklisted. You know, you're not going to 402 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 6: get speaking engagements. These people certainly are going to come 403 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 6: on your show anytime soon, and they're just going to 404 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 6: trash you every chance they get. They have no problem 405 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 6: with that, They have no problem with the misogyny of 406 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 6: all of this. 407 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 2: Emma herself was vilified for telling her story. She mentions 408 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: a Carol here, who is Carol Rainey who you heard 409 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 2: from a couple of episodes ago and in season one 410 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: she is Bud Hopkins' ex wife and former research partner. 411 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: And then there was a bit of a controversy because 412 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 3: most people attacked me, and also Carol Rainey, who also 413 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 3: came out and said what she had observed about bad 414 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 3: Hopkins's research. And we were just quite savagely aspected that 415 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: there were some people of the UFO field it realized 416 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: just how bad it was, and then there was a 417 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 3: kind of a controversy between basically two opposing camps. In 418 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: the end, people they thought that Hopkins and Jacobs were perfect, 419 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: and that Caroline and I were these awful people, you know, 420 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 3: for some reason, trying to tear them down, and then 421 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: other people who realized that what was going on with 422 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: Jacobs's research and Hopkins's research was just not okay. There's 423 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 3: still a lot of support for Jacob's and Hopkins in 424 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: the UFO field. 425 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: One final point in this saga is the role that 426 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: David Jacob's academic institution did or didn't play in overseeing 427 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 2: his research. There are strong regulations on how research can 428 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 2: be conducted, especially what is called human subjects research. Academic 429 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 2: and other institutions that engage in research involving human subjects 430 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 2: have an institutional review board that evaluates research proposals to 431 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: see if they are compatible with human subjects regulations. David 432 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: Jacobs was employed by Temple University, which which has an 433 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: institutional review board that you think would have had some 434 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: questions about Jacob's research, but that turned out not to 435 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: be the case. Soon after discovering the multiple personality disorder tape, 436 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: Emma filed a complaint with Temple University. 437 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 3: A few months later, I filed a complaint with Temple University, 438 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 3: and they initially said they were going to investigate it, 439 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 3: and then I didn't hear from them. They never asked 440 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: to speak to me, they never asked for any of 441 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 3: my evidence. And then I got this little letter saying 442 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 3: that he wasn't writing a book, and they just ignored 443 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: all that, the entire substance of my complaint, and I 444 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 3: kind of realized at that point that, in my opinion, 445 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 3: they were just covering it up. A few months later, 446 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 3: the following year, I then filed a complaint with the 447 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 3: Office of Human Research Protections, who oversee Temples research to 448 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 3: make sure that they're abiding by human subject protections. And 449 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 3: then Temple then apparently made a case to them that 450 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 3: Jacobs was not actually conducting research. He was just collecting 451 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 3: oral history, and I think they did that because oral 452 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 3: history is exempt from OHRP oversight. 453 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: Jacob's positioned his work with Emma and other abductees as 454 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: collecting oral histories. Oral history projects documenting a person's history 455 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 2: or getting their general reflections on the past, is not 456 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: considered human subjects research. But needless to say, oral history 457 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: projects don't entail planting hypnotic suggestions or even hypnotizing subjects 458 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: in the first place. 459 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 3: But then they said they were still concerned about it 460 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 3: and they would ask Temple to investigate it voluntarily. And 461 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: then Temple then came back and said they couldn't investigate 462 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 3: it because he wasn't doing research. Temple did nothing. They 463 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 3: just covered it up, and he went on having clients 464 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 3: and they knew what he was doing because they knew 465 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 3: about like and they still allowed him to have clients. 466 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: Knew that he was hypnotizing them. 467 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 2: So again, was Jacob's delusional. No one has probably thought 468 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 2: about this more than Emma Woods. 469 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: So I don't feel that he was trying to learn anything, 470 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: And looking back, I don't actually personally believe that he 471 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 3: believes any of it. I don't know what his agenda was. 472 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: It could be that he just wanted to write books, 473 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 3: or it was helping him in his course at Temple University. 474 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 3: But I actually now don't believe that he ever believed 475 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 3: any of it. It was such deliberate leading, and he's 476 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: very aware that leading causes false memories. I mean, he's 477 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 3: written about that, he's talked about that, and the leading 478 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 3: was so overt and so deliberate. He was making sure 479 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 3: that I remembered that under their gnosis. 480 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: In the end, after all that you went through with 481 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: Jacob's and the after math of her exposing his research practices, 482 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: she still lives with memories that he suggested to her 483 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: while she was under hypnosis, and. 484 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: I still remember them now. They're part of my experience 485 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 3: of my life. Even though I know most of it's 486 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: probably false, it still there still feels real. 487 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: So we have looked at what happens when researchers develop specific, 488 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: strongly held views about the existence of UFOs and the 489 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: meaning of interactions with UFOs and aliens. But what does 490 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: that mean for right now, as we are in the 491 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: midst of a resurgence of interest. To answer that question, 492 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: we have to travel back more than fifty years to 493 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: a place on the border of West Virginia and Ohio 494 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: next time on Strange Arrivals. 495 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 496 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manky. This episode was written and hosted 497 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: by Toby Ball and produced by rima Il Kayali, Jesse Funk, 498 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: and Noami Griffin, with executive producers Alexander Williams, Matt Frederick, 499 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: and Aaron Mankey, and supervising producer Josh Thame, with voice 500 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: acting by Dylan Fagan. Learn more about the show at 501 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: Grimminmild dot com, slash Strange Arrivals and find more podcasts 502 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio by visiting the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 503 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.