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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, I had the privilege of interviewing Yusuf

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Speaker 1: Salam well now doctor Yusuf Salam and doctor Salam now Sirs.

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Speaker 1: I love the way that sounds on the board of

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Speaker 1: the Innocents Project with me. He's a father of ten children,

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Speaker 1: extraordinary and he is an accomplished and celebrated motivational speaker,

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Speaker 1: an author, and a tremendous advocate for criminal justice reform.

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Speaker 1: Most dramatically, the story of Yusuf Salam and the four

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Speaker 1: other wrongfully convicted boys because they were just children when

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Speaker 1: they were teenagers, young teenagers when they were wrongfully convicted,

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Speaker 1: then known as the Central Park Five, now known as

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Speaker 1: the Exonerated Five, were featured in the hit Netflix show

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Speaker 1: and the hit is not as strong enough here the

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Speaker 1: smash Netflix show when they see us sixteen Emmy Award

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Speaker 1: nominations and it's become a cultural phenomenon. It also has

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Speaker 1: resulted in actual consequences for the people who wrongfully prosecuted

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Speaker 1: and persecuted Yusef and the other kids. Both prosecutors have

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Speaker 1: faced some censure, not strong enough punishments in my view,

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Speaker 1: for what they did, but it really is a full

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Speaker 1: circle turnaround that couldn't possibly have been imagined back when

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Speaker 1: this terrible mischaracter justice was happening. Doctor Yoseph Salam's episode

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorites. I'm excited for you to

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Speaker 1: hear it.

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Speaker 2: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 2: even have a parking ticket.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I was brought up like

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Speaker 1: cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything everything,

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Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 2: I grew up trusting this is I've grew up believing

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Speaker 2: that every human beings should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 2: that's why, even though I knee I was dealing with

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Speaker 2: more rough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to

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Speaker 2: get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with

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Speaker 2: the fact that I break my way out of my

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Speaker 2: wife's death. I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty

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Speaker 2: until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 4: Our system since I've been out ten years, It's come

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Speaker 4: a little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 2: A totally little trust in humanity have towards happ into it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me

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Speaker 1: And today I'm actually a little bit starstruck or awe

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Speaker 1: struck because we have as our guest today Yusef Salaam,

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Speaker 1: who is one of the most inspiring people I've ever

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Speaker 1: had the privilege to be around. And so Yusef, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 4: Oh thank you for having me. This is definitely my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I always say I'm happier here, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here because you never should have gone

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Speaker 1: through this in the first place. But it's really it's

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Speaker 1: an incredible, incredible story, both in terms of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the story itself and the total breakdown of the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system that this case so perfectly highlights, but also

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Speaker 1: because of what you've how you've managed to turn it

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Speaker 1: into such an amazingly positive thing, and who you've become.

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Speaker 1: So we'll get into that later though, but let's go

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Speaker 1: back in time, like in the movies when it gets

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Speaker 1: all foggy and we go back as this because this

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Speaker 1: goes back to the eighties, right, I mean, and I

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Speaker 1: lived in New York. This is a New York case.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the most famous cases, the Central Park

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Speaker 1: geogra case, or one of the most infamous cases in

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Speaker 1: the history of New York City, which is, of course

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Speaker 1: the media capital of the world. And I lived in

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Speaker 1: New York back then, and it was it was crazy place.

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Speaker 1: You were just a kid to get fifteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen years old, unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm a little bit older than you, so

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Speaker 1: I was in my late twenties already, but I remember

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Speaker 1: it like it was yesterday. I mean, this case was

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Speaker 1: blasted everywhere. This was the crime wave, right, This was

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Speaker 1: a time when the only thing there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of crime in New York, but the hysteria around the

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Speaker 1: crime was was far exceeded the actual problem. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you were a young guy growing up. And had you

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Speaker 1: prior to this horrible incident, had you had any dealings

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Speaker 1: with the law, had you ever been in trouble before?

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Speaker 4: No, So I think that, you know, when I look

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Speaker 4: at myself back then, being innocent, being you know, full

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Speaker 4: of promise and hope and dreams and aspirations. You know,

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Speaker 4: My my so to speak, interaction with police officers or

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Speaker 4: authority figures was that we would see them in the

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Speaker 4: neighborhoods walking around and you know, these were back when

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Speaker 4: the cops actually walked the beat and knew the people's

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Speaker 4: names that they you know, policed and and so I

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Speaker 4: thought that police officers were very friendly, very very helpful.

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Speaker 4: And you know, you supposed that with the backdrop of today,

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Speaker 4: and it's like a horror scene when you look at

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Speaker 4: what happened, you know. But my my interaction was very

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Speaker 4: I didn't have I didn't have any interactions. And what

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Speaker 4: I knew about police officers was that they were they

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Speaker 4: were your friends, and if you needed help, you could

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Speaker 4: call on them to help you and they would come

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Speaker 4: and they would help you because they are public servants,

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Speaker 4: did the protect and serve right.

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Speaker 1: So you grew up like I did, thinking these are

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Speaker 1: the these are the good guys. A lot of us

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Speaker 1: when we were young boys, we all, you know, looked

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Speaker 1: up to every I looked at the most people in uniform.

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Speaker 1: Everyone in uniform. I always thought be one. It's a

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Speaker 1: classic cliche. You grow up wanting to be a fireman

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Speaker 1: or a police officer. A lot of young kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: play play act in those roles. But this crime. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about this crime because you know, interestingly,

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Speaker 1: the first guest we ever had on this podcast, and

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Speaker 1: now we're deep into our sixth season, right, So the

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Speaker 1: first guest we ever had was Raymond Santana, who did

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Speaker 1: an incredible interview. Just an amazing, amazing man he is,

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Speaker 1: and did a great job telling the story. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: fans of the podcast would be familiar with the case

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Speaker 1: from that, but you have your own perspective on it,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's a very and I say that

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Speaker 1: for a very specific set of reasons. But going back

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Speaker 1: to the case, this was a case where a woman

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Speaker 1: who was a Wall Street banker, a white, twenty eight

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Speaker 1: year old woman from the Upper East Side, was jogging

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Speaker 1: in Central Park and she was It was dusk right

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Speaker 1: when she was attacked, and she was brutally beaten. When

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Speaker 1: she was found. To give people some perspective, she seventy

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Speaker 1: five percent of the blood in her body was gone.

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Speaker 1: Her tempered body temperature was eighty four degrees. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she was as close to dead as you can be.

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Speaker 1: And she had been raped and beaten to within an

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Speaker 1: inch of her life, and this triggered everyone's worst fears,

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Speaker 1: right because it was, oh my god, this is a

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, an innocent woman whatever, white and

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Speaker 1: there was a whole racial aspect to it. And man,

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Speaker 1: when that happened, the news media went nuts and there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of pressure to solve this crime. Do

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Speaker 1: you want to add anything to that description?

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Speaker 4: You know it was it was definitely a witch hunts

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Speaker 4: and a frenzy of a witch hunt because when you

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Speaker 4: think about other people's progyptions, you know, folks look at

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Speaker 4: people from so to speak, the darker ants of society

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Speaker 4: as the worst of the worst. You know, I'm I'm

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Speaker 4: in the motivational speaking world now, and I'm told that

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Speaker 4: if you look at a person and an addressing person

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Speaker 4: as they should be, you raise the level of what

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Speaker 4: they could be as opposed to trying to be trying

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Speaker 4: to address them as their circumstances are. Not everybody who

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Speaker 4: may be in those same circumstances may be of that

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Speaker 4: particular element. And that's the thing that's unfortunate, because there

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Speaker 4: was this some speak, broad stroke brush you know, accusation. Uh,

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Speaker 4: these people type of rhetoric and talk, and the notion

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Speaker 4: was that of course they did it because they're black

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Speaker 4: and brown, and so you know when they when they

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Speaker 4: when the woman was found, you know, towards the northern

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Speaker 4: northern end of Central Park. There was just this desire

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Speaker 4: for one to solve this crime, and to solve this

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Speaker 4: crime as quick as possible. And so I remember Mayor

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Speaker 4: coach back and saying something like people wanted to know

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Speaker 4: how the criminal justice system in New York City will work,

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Speaker 4: and they're going to get a great opportunity as regards

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Speaker 4: this case, to see how this system works. We're going

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Speaker 4: to go after us with the full full arm of

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Speaker 4: the law, you know, and true to farms, despite wheels

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Speaker 4: of justice, mowed us down. But in their rush to judgment,

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Speaker 4: they dropped the ball in the worst way and allowed

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Speaker 4: to reill criminals to continue to hurt, to maim, and

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Speaker 4: ultimately murder. His lash victim, who was a young, pregnant

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Speaker 4: Latina woman, he brandished his knife, came into her home.

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Speaker 4: She said, hold on for one moment, and I put

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Speaker 4: my days in the next room. He allowed her to

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Speaker 4: do so. She put her children in the next room,

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Speaker 4: and she locked the door and then he raped her

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Speaker 4: and stabbed her death, killing her and her unborn child.

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Speaker 1: And that is I'm glad you brought that up because

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Speaker 1: it just it makes it make anybody sick to their stomach.

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Speaker 1: And you know that that scene that you're describing is

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Speaker 1: right out of a horror movie. And and it never

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Speaker 1: should have happened, and it never needed to happen because

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Speaker 1: in this case, and it's it's so tragically common you

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Speaker 1: when you have uh, this tunnel vision and this you know,

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Speaker 1: this willful framing of innocent people. And in this case

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Speaker 1: it's even worse because they really knew who the guy was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, they knew for and so

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Speaker 1: this woman never should have been killed. The other women

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Speaker 1: that he raped in the months following the you know,

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Speaker 1: your your arrest never never should have been raped. They

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Speaker 1: should have gone on and had their lives not destroyed

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Speaker 1: the way it were, those kids would still have a mother.

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Speaker 1: This the consequences of the actions of the authorities in

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Speaker 1: this case goes so far beyond having this droid young lives,

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Speaker 1: five young lives, and your families and how it affected

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Speaker 1: had on your families. You know, it's amazing. I've seen

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Speaker 1: the picture of your mom when you were finally exonerated,

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Speaker 1: and the joy is so amazing. But but going back

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Speaker 1: to this, the crazy thing is they knew from the

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Speaker 1: beginning that it was a single perpetrator because this poor

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Speaker 1: woman was dragged into and the ground was wet, right,

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Speaker 1: and she was dragged into this area. You know, obviously

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Speaker 1: he wanted to take her to a secluded area. And

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Speaker 1: for people who are not from the city, who haven't

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Speaker 1: been to the city, Central Park is about three miles

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Speaker 1: long and about a mile wide. It's a big place.

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Speaker 1: And she was jogging up in the northern section of

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Speaker 1: the park, so they knew that there was only one

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Speaker 1: set of footprints in the dewey grass. They knew that

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Speaker 1: there was only one There was only traces of one

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Speaker 1: person's bodily fluids. And as things progressed, even though they

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Speaker 1: had you guys, and they rested you guys, and we

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Speaker 1: know they interrogated you, each of you separately. And don't

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Speaker 1: want to hear about that, because Raymond's description of that

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Speaker 1: is truly terrifying what he went through for you know,

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Speaker 1: for hours on end, almost almost twenty four hours without

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Speaker 1: in Raymond's case, I know in your case, but without

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Speaker 1: food or water or a lawyer or an adult, and

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Speaker 1: ultimately ultimately everyone confess except you, which is amazing too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that you, as a fifteen year

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Speaker 1: old kid, under the most intense pressure that anyone could

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Speaker 1: ever face, scared out of your mind, with your life

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Speaker 1: at stake, still maintained your innocence is I don't even

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Speaker 1: know where that kind of strength comes from. But okay,

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Speaker 1: so explain the situation. So you were brought at some point,

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Speaker 1: you were arrested, You were with your friends in the park.

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Speaker 1: There was you know, it was a sort of chaotic

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Speaker 1: night in the park. It was you know, hot night whatever.

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Speaker 1: How did this hall come down? How did you come

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Speaker 1: to be arrested? How did you have in the police station?

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Speaker 1: How did that after that?

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Speaker 4: So interestingly enough, if we can kind of show to speak,

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Speaker 4: shift off a frame of reference to folks, to TV

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Speaker 4: shows like PSI, to NCIS, forensics, you know, these types

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Speaker 4: of things, what we get is an understanding that, just

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Speaker 4: like you said, they had information based on their skill

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Speaker 4: set as police officers and so forth. So let them know, okay,

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Speaker 4: this is what happened. They could recreate the crime team

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Speaker 4: based on forensics alans, Okay, this happened first, this happened next.

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Speaker 4: If we saw the blood over here and then here

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Speaker 4: it is here. We were in Central Parks never denied

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Speaker 4: being in Central Park, and all of the guys who

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Speaker 4: became known as the Central Park Five were absolute witnesses

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Speaker 4: to all of the mayhem that had gone on in

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Speaker 4: the park. With the exception of the rape of the Jagga.

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Speaker 4: No one had no idea a woman was raped, didn't

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Speaker 4: know anything about it. And so here I am. At

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Speaker 4: the time, I was about six foot two inch two inches,

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Speaker 4: very slim, had an outfit on that was a Skybrew

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Speaker 4: jacket with skyblw matching pants. My sky blue pants had

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Speaker 4: artwork on it. I'm actually a person who was going

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Speaker 4: to LaGuardia Music and Art for Arts, so I'm a

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Speaker 4: great graphic designer and I drew some stuff from my

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Speaker 4: pants that was just you know, how how people did

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Speaker 4: back then. But if we can think about these TV shows,

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Speaker 4: what we know is that when they start going into

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Speaker 4: the community to try to recreate what happened and to

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Speaker 4: ask people what happened, what they do is they say, okay,

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Speaker 4: well who who's there? And folks in there, in there thinking, okay,

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Speaker 4: damn what it was a guy that was a tall guy.

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Speaker 4: I remember there was a tall guy in the park

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Speaker 4: with a flat top. I was probably maybe the most

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Speaker 4: stand out ish looking for fellows because not only was

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Speaker 4: I tall and lanky, but what I had on almost

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Speaker 4: looked like I was wearing white in the life of

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Speaker 4: Central Park. And so, of course no one knew my name.

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Speaker 4: None of us knew each other. I actually met Raymond

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Speaker 4: Santana and the other guys in prison. I only knew Corey.

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Speaker 4: Why But as things go further, as you can imagine,

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Speaker 4: they go to the surrounding communities and start interrogating everyone.

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Speaker 4: One thing leads to another, and my name is mentioned,

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Speaker 4: and I'm finding out that the police officers are looking

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Speaker 4: for me. And I say, well, you know what, Hey,

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Speaker 4: I knew I didn't do anything wrong. I'm with Corey.

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Speaker 4: Corey said, hey, I left the park almost right after

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Speaker 4: we went in. Well, let's sort of the cops and

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Speaker 4: to tell them what we saw and we'll be home

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Speaker 4: before our mom get that.

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Speaker 1: So when did you get picked up? Like the crime

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Speaker 1: happened at night right and the publicity happened immediately after

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Speaker 1: the crime, when did you become aware that the cops

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Speaker 1: were looking for you.

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Speaker 4: I became aware of it. I went to school the

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Speaker 4: next day. I was actually one of the only children

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Speaker 4: that had school the next day. I went to school.

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Speaker 4: The next day, came home from school and the blocks

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Speaker 4: was completely empty. It was the weirdest thing that you

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Speaker 4: can imagine if children didn't have school. Everybody be outside

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Speaker 4: riding skateboards, bikes, having fun, just hanging out. And I'm

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Speaker 4: looking around, I'm like, where's everybody at? And not only that,

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Speaker 4: I see a whole bunch of unmarked police cars, and

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Speaker 4: so I'm like, man, that's just crazy stairs not thinking

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Speaker 4: anything up it, changed my clothes and come back downstairs

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Speaker 4: with my playoutfit con you know. And Corey's girlfriend at

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Speaker 4: the time comes up to me and says, hey, when

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Speaker 4: you see Corey, bring him to my house. I need

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Speaker 4: to show you all something. I said, sure, no problem,

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Speaker 4: show Corey. A little while later, we go up to

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Speaker 4: his house, to his girlfriend's house, and she shows us

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Speaker 4: the news. She turns the news on him. At this point.

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Speaker 4: It's maybe around for a stock or something like that,

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Speaker 4: and of course they do the things breaking and it

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Speaker 4: was a sul shape. Women found it as part uh,

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Speaker 4: so far and so on. I'm not understanding why she's

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Speaker 4: showing this to us. And then she looked at us

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Speaker 4: and says, hey, do you have anything to tell me?

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Speaker 4: And then looking at her like what's up, what's up?

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Speaker 4: What's going on? And she said, they're saying that this

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Speaker 4: was you guys, that you're all in the park last night,

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Speaker 4: and this is what you all did. And I said, right, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: no no. And then she said, and they're looking for you,

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Speaker 4: and so I said, well, I'm going to go to

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Speaker 4: them and tell them what I saw. I know I

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Speaker 4: didn't do anything wrong. Corey said he didn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 4: He didn't hurt nobody or do anything bad. He left

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Speaker 4: the park after entering, and we get picked up. As

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Speaker 4: a matter of fact, when we finally got a hold

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Speaker 4: of the offices that it's kind of strange and ironic

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Speaker 4: that I'm saying it that way, but I was looking

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Speaker 4: for them. When the officers finally came in contact with us,

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Speaker 4: they were in front of my door trying to convince

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Speaker 4: my thirteen year old brother to put his clothes on

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Speaker 4: and come down to the prison with them. He had

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Speaker 4: had not been in the park he didn't know what

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Speaker 4: was going on, and they were trying to convince him

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Speaker 4: to put his clothes on to come down to the

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Speaker 4: precinct to be questioned and interrogated. That would have ended disastrously.

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Speaker 4: As you came back, I turned the corner to approach

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Speaker 4: my door and they're in front of my door talking

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Speaker 4: to my brother and they asked me who am? I

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Speaker 4: askaid you, soud Salami look at this document that they

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Speaker 4: had in their hands and said, this is one of

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Speaker 4: the guys you were looking for. They asked Corey who

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Speaker 4: was he? And he said, I'm Corey Wise. And they

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Speaker 4: looked at the paper and said, you're not on this paper,

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Speaker 4: But do you want to come downtown with your buddy.

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Speaker 4: You'll be right back, and you know, you know how

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Speaker 4: that story ends. Of course, Cory is sixteen years old

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Speaker 4: at the time. He ends up getting railroaded and convicted

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Speaker 4: and spending almost thirteen to fourteen years of the next

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Speaker 4: part of his life in prison or crime that we

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Speaker 4: all hannot committed.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So he was actually the most random of them all.

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Speaker 1: He just went down because he was trying to be

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Speaker 1: a boody d you basically right, And that was the

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Speaker 1: one that was the most worst decision he ever made.

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Speaker 1: He made it for the right reason. So the process

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Speaker 1: that happened in the precincts, it was the Central Park

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Speaker 1: precinct that you were brought to, right.

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Speaker 4: That was the initial precinct. And then they then they

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Speaker 4: you know, because Manhattan, Manhattan nor hoomicide squad steps and

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Speaker 4: they start they are the now then they are now

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Speaker 4: the officers that are interrogating. They're the ones that are saying, Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is looking like it's going to be a homicide.

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Speaker 4: We need to figure this out and and solve this

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Speaker 4: crime and top quickly and appease the fears of the

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Speaker 4: public and let them know that we have the city

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Speaker 4: under control. We are in control, and we caught so

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Speaker 4: called perpetrators.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so how did the interrogations go, Like what you

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Speaker 1: were brought in? What was the whole process? You're brought

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Speaker 1: to the precinct, you were with Corey.

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Speaker 4: I was with Corey, and they immediately separated us, you know,

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Speaker 4: and they started interrogating. And while they were asking me

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Speaker 4: the questions I had, I was very very forthcoming. I said, yeah,

359
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 4: this is what happened first, is what happened next? I'm

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00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 4: like you know, thinking, hey, I'm just going to go

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Speaker 4: in there and tell them what I saw, and like

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Speaker 4: I said, I'll be back home before my mom gets back.

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Speaker 4: And when I when I wrapped up the first time,

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Speaker 4: the guy said, okay, well what about the jagga? And

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Speaker 4: I'm like, what jogga? What are you talking about? And

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Speaker 4: he says, okay, well, let's start. Tell me what happened

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Speaker 4: again from the top I saw from the top of them,

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Speaker 4: and things began to intensify. And it began to intensify

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Speaker 4: in such a way that I started feeling afraid. And

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Speaker 4: then they you know, at some point they would leave

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Speaker 4: the room and come back in, and I never seen

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Speaker 4: at one point they left the room for a very

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Speaker 4: very long time. And at this point, hours were going by,

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Speaker 4: and I'm feeling tired and I'm starting to doze off,

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Speaker 4: and I am immediately Joe toed for wait because I

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Speaker 4: hear Cory Wise yelling in the next room. Now, Cory

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Speaker 4: VI is just to give you a little his background

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Speaker 4: of Corey. Corey Wise was the U was, probably was

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Speaker 4: and still is the guy who you wanted to have

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00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,399
Speaker 4: as a friend because you knew that he would have

381
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Speaker 4: your back. He wasn't gonna let nothing bad happen to you.

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Speaker 4: He was gonna make sure that you know you were okay.

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Speaker 4: And so to hear Corey, this person who had such

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Speaker 4: a big heart or fearful person, yelling and screaming okay,

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you, I'm I'm like, oh my goodness. They're

386
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 4: beating him up. I hear them smacking him around. I

387
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 4: hear them. I hate he's under this. He is in

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Speaker 4: a position that I have never heard him in before.

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Speaker 4: And that immediately joke to me. A word sent chills

390
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Speaker 4: down my spine, and I'm like, oh my god, that's

391
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 4: they're gonna kill us. And at this point, I'm scared.

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Speaker 4: At this point, I'm still trying to maintain my innocence.

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Speaker 4: I'm still trying to let them know what happened. And

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Speaker 4: now it's like a boxing match.

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Speaker 1: Did at any point did you have a lawyer or

396
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: a guardian or a parent or anybody else in there

397
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Speaker 1: with you?

398
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Speaker 4: No. And this is one of the most interesting things.

399
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Speaker 4: I didn't know my mother had came to the priest

400
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Speaker 4: and I didn't know she was there. It wasn't until

401
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 4: after a few more hours passed that one of the

402
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 4: I think it might have been either Fairstein or Elizabeth

403
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 4: Letter or came into the room. I mean they shouldn't

404
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 4: come to a knocked on the door and summoned the

405
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Speaker 4: officer out of the room. And when they summoned the

406
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Speaker 4: officer out of the room, they the officer came back

407
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Speaker 4: in and said to be how old are you? Now?

408
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Speaker 4: Mind you? They they they first when they took me

409
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Speaker 4: into custody at my apartment building, they took my ID,

410
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Speaker 4: which had my ID from Mount Signai Hospital, which had

411
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Speaker 4: my birth date on it. Inside my wallet had my

412
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Speaker 4: Mount sign I I d I'm ID, but you know,

413
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Speaker 4: like the hospital, your hospital card. I had that. I

414
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Speaker 4: had the bus pad and I had a pocket knife,

415
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Speaker 4: so they knew how old I was. So the guy

416
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 4: comes in and says how old are you? How how

417
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 4: old are you again? And I said I'm fifteen, and

418
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 4: he curses and throws his pad across the room and says,

419
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Speaker 4: why the didn't you tell me that? And I'm not

420
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Speaker 4: even knowing why that's even relevant. I don't even understand

421
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 4: what's going on. Then they bring me down to my

422
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 4: mom and she's telling me, hey, do not talk to

423
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Speaker 4: these people. I did not give them permission to talk

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00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 4: to you. You're a minor. They need my permission. I

425
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 4: am not giving them permission. Don't talk to them. That

426
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Speaker 4: was how it went.

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Speaker 1: But then then what happened, Because now you've spoken to

428
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Speaker 1: your mom. That must have been a very emotional situation.

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Speaker 1: And now you've just heard Corey getting eating up. You

430
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: know that you're in real trouble. Your mom is there

431
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: like like a lifeboat, right, like a life uh you know, uh,

432
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: life saver. But but you're but but you're still in

433
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: the custody of the cops. And then so did they

434
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: then pull you away from her and put your back

435
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: in the room.

436
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 4: And they did, And that's the part, that's the craziest part.

437
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 4: They don't have my they don't have her permission, they

438
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 4: don't have her consent to talk to me. That meeting

439
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 4: was so short. I don't know how long it lasted,

440
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 4: but it felt like minutes. It felt like minutes. It

441
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 4: felt like it was less than five minutes. And then

442
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 4: they brought they almost ripped me out of her arms

443
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 4: again and brought me back to the back and they

444
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 4: continued to interrogate, and I remember one of the officers,

445
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 4: the main officers interrogating. He says, uh, you know, you

446
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 4: don't have to tell us anything. That's fine. You know,

447
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 4: we have we have your we pulled your fingerprints off

448
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 4: of her off for short, Like how the heck did

449
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: they prove my fingers off for short? Like I didn't,

450
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 4: I wasn't there.

451
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's something he said that that you know,

452
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't understand either. I mean, the fact that they're

453
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: allowed to lie in the interrogation process is so uh,

454
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: it's just I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me,

455
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: but go ahead.

456
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean at this point, I'm like, oh man,

457
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm doing I'm done for. But they took

458
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 4: my threats and put it on her.

459
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: But they didn't the fact that your prints weren't on it.

460
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: They just they just lied, I mean because they're trying

461
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: to pressure fantastic.

462
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 4: So ye again I'm being trained and I'm like, oh uh,

463
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: but yeah, they lied?

464
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: And did they did they actually beat you up like

465
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: did the other guys?

466
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: No, No, they didn't. They the threat was very real,

467
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 4: the threat was extremely real, but they didn't. They didn't

468
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 4: touch me.

469
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: And ultimately, you were there for do you even know

470
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: how many hours you were in there.

471
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 4: For no I don't I know. I was brought in

472
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 4: that evening and I remember we didn't have an eating

473
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 4: to eat, a drink, and you know, being worn down

474
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 4: from that, you know, you think about I have I

475
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 4: have ten children. So it's an interesting dynamic when you

476
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 4: think about, you know, how much a child could eat.

477
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 4: And so my my fifteen year old consumed everything in

478
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 4: the house. You know, you got to basically go to

479
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 4: Costcos just for that one child alone and buy in bulk,

480
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 4: because you know that they're going to eat everything, you know.

481
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: But we didn't get anything to eat, We didn't get

482
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 4: anything to drink. I remember the next morning we were

483
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 4: we were at another precrint and they bought McDonald's, you know,

484
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 4: and I remember eating McDonald's was the first time.

485
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: I had eat and so and you said, I mean,

486
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: there's a very powerful video that I saw you do

487
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: that people can watch that you did in conjunction with

488
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: the New Yorker magazine and the Marshall Project, in which

489
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: you talk about the fact that you thought you were

490
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: going to go and as you just said you'd be

491
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: home before your mom got back, and in fact he

492
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: didn't get home. From seven years so from this point,

493
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: you never did confess, right, the other guys were, and

494
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: which is interesting too because of the fact and kind

495
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: of amazing because of the fact that we know that

496
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: false confessions are very common. The general public doesn't understand.

497
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: Jurors don't understand why anyone would confess to a crime

498
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: they didn't commit. But when they're under that type of

499
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: pressure and their adolescence and their brain hasn't even fully formed,

500
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: like yours, Adam, what were you in ninth grade? It's ridiculous.

501
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: And so the pressure gets to people and they also

502
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: think like it must have occurred to you at some point,

503
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: because you come into that room thinking, well, these are

504
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: the good guys, and there's going to be even if

505
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: these guys that are in front of me aren't good guys,

506
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,239
Speaker 1: there's going to be some other good guys that are

507
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: going to understand that are going to save me, because

508
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: I got to get out of this room, like I

509
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: got to get away from these people who are tormenting me,

510
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: who are threatening me, who may kill me. And that's

511
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: what the whole you know, interrogation techniques called the red

512
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: technique is designed to do. It's designed to basically make

513
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: your mind collapse in on itself so that you see

514
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: no other option other than to confess. So that's why

515
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: false confessions are extremely common in juvenile and adolescents. And

516
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: that's important for people who are listening, who are someday

517
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: going to serve on a jury to know if you're seeing,

518
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: especially a case where there's no other evidence other than

519
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: a false confession, other than a confession, you really have

520
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: to dive into that, and you have to be aware

521
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: that that confession very well may be a false confession

522
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: and you may be dealing with it and its in person.

523
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: So then it comes to the trial, and you know,

524
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: you've got this sensational trial so much media. You guys

525
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: were you know, I mean even I was buying into

526
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: it back then. I'm ashamed to admit it. But there

527
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: was only one narrative. There wasn't like somebody else going, well,

528
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: wait a minute, may be blah blah blah. Because they

529
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: were withholding all the evidence that they had, right they

530
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: knew that, I mean, weeks into your case. They knew

531
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: that it was impossible that you or any of the

532
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: four guys could have done this, but they didn't care.

533
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 4: And that's the thing that you know, But when I

534
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 4: when I when I look at a lot of these

535
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 4: cases and I understand the law a lot more, I

536
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 4: realized that it's not really about the facts, it's about

537
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 4: who can tell the best stories. And in many ways,

538
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 4: we had an effective counsel. We had, you know, we

539
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 4: were facing a situation where even the evidence that you see,

540
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 4: you know, you would think that it's a gag rate,

541
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 4: that there's definitely going to be some femen, some type

542
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 4: of something. Nobody had blood on them, nobody had anything

543
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 4: on them that even indicated that they were at this place,

544
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 4: you know. But yet they still went and stepped over

545
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 4: the bounds of the law, manufactured evidence, like you said,

546
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 4: and went full stream ahead because not only not only

547
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 4: did they do this in the worst way, but I've

548
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 4: always said that it was more attractive, it was more sexy,

549
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 4: if you will. For there to be five people brutally

550
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: assaulting one woman who was white, five five people of

551
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 4: color brutally assaulting a white woman, then there it have been.

552
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 4: With the evidence shows from the clim scene there's one

553
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 4: person dragging one person into the woods and trying to

554
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: murder them after they raped them.

555
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: Right, it's a wolf pack situation. It's it's preying on

556
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: everybody's primal fears. It's playing on the on the race card,

557
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: everything else, and you know, and it's so it's so

558
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: tragic because they knew that this Matthias race guy, they

559
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: were already watching him. They knew that he was a

560
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: suspect and a prior rape that had many of the

561
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: similar characteristics. I mean, there was this case really came

562
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: with instructions and as this evidence started coming in and

563
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: they they became aware in a very short time after

564
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: you guys were arrested, and some of the evidence probably

565
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: was even in before you arrested, that it was a

566
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: single perpetrator, be that it wasn't any of you guys.

567
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: See that they could have so easily gone and picked

568
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: up Matthias, and they would have, they would have had

569
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: the guy, and we keep coming back to that, and

570
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: none of these other people would have suffered the way

571
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,719
Speaker 1: they didn't. Neither would you. But that's not what happened

572
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: because these people were they were overtaken by ambition and

573
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: publicity and accolades that they wanted to get, and they

574
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: were perfectly happy to convict inns and people. It was

575
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: almost like not even inconvenient for them. It was just like,

576
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: let's just get it done and take the bows and

577
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: do their whole thing along with their lives. And they

578
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: have gone on with their lives. I don't know how.

579
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how they sleep at night, but they do.

580
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 4: You know. Jason's interesting as you talk about that, because

581
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 4: that's one of the things that I give people try

582
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 4: to get people to understand as well. This is not

583
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 4: a situation where oh my goodness, we dropped the ball,

584
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: my dad, Oh my gosh, we've never done this before.

585
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 4: This is this is a situation where it's the convincibility

586
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 4: of our guilt, which was we weren't guilty. But if

587
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: they were able to convince the public of this lie

588
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: and do it so well, I've always said, well, how

589
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 4: many other cases after I'll never forget When the Central

590
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: prop five film came out that King Burns did, which

591
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 4: was an amazing film. I never forget. When it was released,

592
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: people from Columbia Law was watching it, and Elizabeth Letter

593
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 4: is an adjunct professor at Columbia Law. I don't know

594
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 4: if she's still there, but she was there then, and

595
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 4: the students started an online petition to get her fired.

596
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 4: They did not want her to teach them, because in

597
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 4: their minds they were looking at this case and saying,

598
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 4: what kind of law is she going to teach? If

599
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 4: she did this to the central PLoP five, what is

600
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 4: she training us to do? And they did not want

601
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: her to teach them, and instead of Columbia Law firing her,

602
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 4: they protected her. But the document's painted pictures that this

603
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 4: wasn't just about we're going to prosecute this case. We're

604
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: just going to do our jobs and you know, make

605
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 4: sure that justice is served. They hated us. They hated

606
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 4: us with every fiber of their bodies and wanted us

607
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 4: to be guilty. And in that they did anything and everything,

608
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 4: by hook or by crook to make sure that they

609
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 4: can get a conviction. I never forget why. When they

610
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 4: leaked out something about the DNA, they said that DNA

611
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 4: evidence and then they tested us and no match came back.

612
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 4: And once did they do, they had to come out

613
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 4: and say that no, there's no match. But they quickly

614
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 4: swept that under the rug. Because that's tsunami of media

615
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 4: reports that were present within the first few weeks of

616
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 4: this trial, or not even the trial, but the case

617
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 4: being broadcast. That sunami of media reports dwarfs, any of

618
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 4: these small little things that came out because it mudded

619
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 4: the waters and caused people to just say to themselves,

620
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 4: there was something about DNA in this case. They don't

621
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: remember that there was no DNA match. They just remembered

622
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: there was something about DNA, and then when it came

623
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 4: out in the trial and said this will say, will

624
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 4: be no DNA evidence in the stakes. What we will

625
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 4: rely on on their confessions.

626
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: Stay tuned, We'll be right back. Let's move to the

627
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: trial itself. How long did the trial last?

628
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 4: Wow? Man, So I want to say that the trial

629
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 4: lasted for maybe just under a year. I don't know

630
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 4: specific time frames, but I do know that I was

631
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 4: out on bail. I was only in lock up initially

632
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: for a little while that I got out on bail,

633
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 4: and that was nineteen eighty nine. And how of nineteen

634
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 4: nine years when they convicted us.

635
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: But okay, so that's weird too, because you're out on bail.

636
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you couldn't go to school. You must have

637
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: had to stay inside the house. You're one of the

638
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: most notorious criminals in New York state history at that time.

639
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: It was.

640
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 4: It was one of the worst and scariest times ever because,

641
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 4: as you can imagine, also Donald Trump, early on, we

642
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 4: hadn't even been gone, we haven't even gone to trial yet.

643
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 4: Donald Trump takes out a full page ad two weeks

644
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 4: after we were accused, and it runs in the New News,

645
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 4: the Daily, the New York Times, Daily News, the Post,

646
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: all of the major newspapers. It run and it's it's

647
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 4: an outcry. It's an outcry from someone from the darker

648
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 4: enclaves of society to come into our home, to drag

649
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 4: us from our bay, and to hang us from trees

650
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 4: in Central Park, to do to us what they had

651
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 4: done to ever till. And I say that because what

652
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: happened as a result of that article being that ad

653
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 4: being grand in place, people began to write us hateful mail.

654
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 4: People began to write us threatening letters. They began to

655
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 4: say that they were going to that we that they

656
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 4: hoped that we would be fried in oil, that we

657
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 4: would be raped, that we'll be castrated. That twenty to

658
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 4: thirty years from now, next year is the thirtieth anniversary

659
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 4: of the Central Park jogger case. Twenty to thirty years

660
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 4: from now, some people will never forget. And one letter

661
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 4: specifically says that maybe the one time that you don't

662
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 4: check your back is the one time that someone want

663
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 4: just be there to say hello. And so if you

664
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 4: can imagine the language and all of the stuff that

665
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 4: was going on back then, like they wanted to murder us.

666
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 4: They wanted to do to us what they had done

667
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 4: to m Mitil. We became the modern day scotspital boys, definitely,

668
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 4: but they wanted to do to us what they had

669
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 4: done to Emmettil.

670
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, the m Motel case haunts me all. It's just

671
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: really one of the most just really one of the

672
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: darkest episodes in American history. That that poor kid with

673
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: that little baby face that he had. But you were

674
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: almost the same age as he was at the time, Right,

675
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: he was fourteen, you were fifteen. And here you are

676
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: now you're a president in your own home. You have

677
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: this guy who we know as a racist taking out

678
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: these ads advocating a lynch mob. The fact that the

679
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: papers would even run these paper ads is insane. And

680
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: and then then the trial comes. So how did the

681
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: trial itself? And you know, obviously you were not avaquately represented.

682
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if a good lawyer could have gotten

683
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: you out with all the hysteria at that time because

684
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: you'd been trialed, you had already been tried in the media.

685
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: But the fact is, you know, there's that saying that

686
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: in America you're better off being guilty and rich than

687
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: innocent and poor. So the the fact is, so you

688
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: go to the trial. The trial itself lasted how many days?

689
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 4: Oh man? So the trial, that's That's another thing that's

690
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 4: very foggy on me. But I know that as the

691
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 4: trial went in, it was like, okay, as it was

692
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 4: drawing on and drawing on, and forget the very at

693
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 4: the very end. What I remember most is I was

694
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 4: on the phone with a friend and I never forget

695
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 4: it was the day was the day was ending, and

696
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 4: I'm on the phone and say, hey, this is what's

697
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 4: going on. You know, Okay, it looks like we'll we'll

698
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 4: you know, they're not going to have a verdict and

699
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 4: I'll be able to see you all shortly. And then

700
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 4: somebody came running down the hallway and said, the verdict

701
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 4: is in. The verdict is in. I said, man, vertic

702
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 4: is in. Okay, great, I'll see you soon. And I

703
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 4: just don't know. We were all found guilty.

704
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: You were were you tried together.

705
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: Well, they split the trial, and they split the case

706
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 4: in half. And so the first of us, myself, Remiston, Tanna,

707
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: and Anton mccuariar went and then the next three that

708
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: was there because it was initially called the Center Park

709
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 4: seven and Michael Briscoe was able to get out of

710
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: the case and get freed, and then it became the

711
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 4: Center Park six. And when that first file happened to myself,

712
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 4: Remiston's moon, yeah, myself, Ramison Tanna, and Antony McCrae, we

713
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 4: got convicted. We lost, and the next trial jearing up

714
00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 4: Corey Wise, Kevin Richardson and Steven Lopez, Stephen Lopez, if

715
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 4: Cole Fee. All kinds of rumors were out there about

716
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 4: how much time we were facing. They wanted to try

717
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 4: us as adults and convict us as adults, and they

718
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 4: tried us as adults, and then when the convictions came

719
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 4: down a few months later, for a little while later

720
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 4: they gave us juvenile times. But each of these charges

721
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 4: they were saying could have given us three and a

722
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: half three was three three and a third to ten years.

723
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 4: And so for the major charges, I think it was

724
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 4: two of them we could have been facing dition two

725
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 4: thirds to twenty years if they wanted to give us

726
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 4: that kind of time. And like I said, Stephen Lopez

727
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 4: got cold feet. He heard about this, these rumors. Oh

728
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 4: my goodness, they got convicted. I can't do that much time.

729
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 4: Let me just cop out to something that I didn't

730
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 4: do so I can get out of this thing. And

731
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 4: of course we know that he copped out to robbery

732
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: or something like that and got a year. He did

733
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 4: one year and came home. I think it was one year.

734
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 4: Unfortunate too, because it shows what you said, if you're

735
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 4: poor in your innocence, you're not going to get a

736
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 4: fair chance. You're not going to be afforded the same

737
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 4: opportunities of the under the law as a person who.

738
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: Maybe more and so so that you actually believed, up

739
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: until the moment that the diverted came in that you

740
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: were going to be exonerated. It's amazing after everything you've

741
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: been through that you still had that type of and well,

742
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: and now that I know you as I do, the

743
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: fact that you're the optimistic attitude is I guess I

744
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: shouldn't be surprised, but after everything you had been through

745
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: at that time, it's amazing that you still maintained hope.

746
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: But in fact the worst possible outcome came to be,

747
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: which is that you were found guilty and then you

748
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: were taking to prison. Now you're sixteen years old, right

749
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: and you're going to some of the worst prisons in

750
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,959
Speaker 1: America arguably the world.

751
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 4: This is this is the worst of nightmare times twenty

752
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 4: And that was in the juvenile facility as well. I

753
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 4: know that Corey Wison in regards Island, in Reconds Island

754
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 4: is incomparable to Sponsored or any of the other juvenile facilities.

755
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: You know.

756
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 4: The worst thing that can happen to you and Jubie

757
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 4: is that you might get sliced or you know, beat

758
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 4: up or something like that. But in Reconsiland, God, you

759
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: could lose your life. For us that went to the

760
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 4: juvenile facility, it was hell. And then when we got convicted,

761
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 4: they sent us to one of the three maximum as

762
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 4: treat facilities at the time that was there. They sent

763
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 4: me to Harlem Valley, they sent Raymonds and Canada Ghoshen,

764
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 4: and they sent Antema Creates a book work, you know,

765
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 4: and it was the worst, worst kind of situations that

766
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 4: we had to grow up very bad figure out how

767
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 4: we were going to survive when just yesterday we were

768
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 4: riding skateboards and you know, being food groups or something

769
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 4: like that.

770
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm doing graphic design and looking forward to your.

771
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 4: Life, just just just being a normal, innocent child. And

772
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 4: now yet that whole reality is gone, and it's hard

773
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 4: to it's hard to fully describe everything that went on

774
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 4: because my story is a little bit different, because I

775
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 4: started to really try to get some type of understanding

776
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 4: about this. I wanted to figure out why why, Like

777
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 4: I knew that I was innotant, I knew that we

778
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 4: hadn't done it, but here we were, we were in prison,

779
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 4: and I was trying to figure out why were we convicted?

780
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 4: How did this happen? And nece again. A guy comes

781
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 4: up to me in prison, one of the officers, and

782
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 4: he's been watching me for the few months that I

783
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 4: had been there at this time, and he asks me

784
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 4: this one question, This one question changed my life. He said,

785
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 4: who are you? And I, in my ignorance and confusion,

786
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: my answer was probably the same as anyone else, without

787
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 4: understanding the philosophical realm of where he was going, I said,

788
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 4: I'm used of Salon, one of the guys they accused

789
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 4: of raping the essential park Joenre But I didn't do it,

790
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 4: and he said, no, no, no, no, I know that,

791
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 4: he said, but I've been watching you. You're not supposed

792
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 4: to be here, You're not a criminal. Why are you here?

793
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 4: Who are you? And it caused me to really evaluate

794
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 4: my life and my circumstances, short as it may be,

795
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 4: at a particular point in time, to understand things in

796
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 4: a greater, so to speak, way, to understand that we

797
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 4: all are here on purpose. There's things that we have

798
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 4: to do, and we are the ones that are chosen

799
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 4: to do that. And if we don't do it, it

800
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: won't be done. If we don't bless the world with

801
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 4: our book, that book will never be written. They say

802
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 4: the graveyard is the wealthiest place in the world because

803
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: it's filled with the ideas and the dreams and the

804
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 4: hopes of people that just did not get over the

805
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 4: hump of doing those ideas and dreams and hopes, you know.

806
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 4: And so here I was, in this place that I

807
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 4: was supposed to be. Damned, I'm getting a sense of

808
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 4: purpose that I would have never really really understood had

809
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 4: not gone through this.

810
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: Did you did you maintain a relationship with that officer

811
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: going forward, because that's deep I mean, the first person

812
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: that said that those same words to me was Deepak Chopra.

813
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: I'm not comparing this guy to Deepac Choprah, but but yeah,

814
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: I mean what happened with I mean, did you did

815
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: you continue to have dialogue with him?

816
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 4: I did. As a matter of fact, this this guy

817
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 4: uh befriended me. It was one of it was one

818
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 4: of the mini officers that befriended me, you know. And

819
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 4: it was weird because at the same time there was

820
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 4: there were little things that were going on, and one

821
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 4: time I would come back to my cell and I

822
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 4: would see chopicicana orange juice and Intimates cookies and it

823
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 4: would happen often enough that it's kind of like, oh wow,

824
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: this is this is kind of strange. And it happened

825
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 4: to like choplic kind of orange and into cookies. But

826
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 4: in the back of my mind, I had this voice

827
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 4: playing in my head that they were trying to kill

828
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 4: me with the food and so I wouldn't never eat it.

829
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 4: Then one David Lady comes up to be another officer

830
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 4: and she says, hey, have you been getting the goodies

831
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 4: I've been leaving to you? And I said, oh wow,

832
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 4: I didn't know you were leaving. I didn't know it

833
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 4: was you. I said, why did you do that? And

834
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 4: she said, I know you're innocent, I know you're not

835
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 4: supposed to be here, but I can't take this key

836
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: and let you go for you. So every time I

837
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: come in here and you here, I want to make

838
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 4: your time as easy and as comfortable as possible. And

839
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 4: this was her way of doing that.

840
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: You found this incredible purpose in this darkest place that

841
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: you could possibly be in, and it has obviously carried

842
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: you through. You ended up serving on a five to

843
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: ten years sentence six years and eight months. Let's talk

844
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: about the fact that Matthias Reyis actually confessed all these

845
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: years later when he met one of the central part

846
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: He met Corey in prison and then suddenly his conscience

847
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: got to him. Imagine that he actually met a guy

848
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: who was serving time for the crime that he committed,

849
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden he got this attack

850
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: of conscience. I think he may have found religion by

851
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: then or I don't know what, but anyway, it doesn't matter.

852
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: He confessed, how did you find out that you now

853
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: had this ray of light and that you you know,

854
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: that you were now going to be actually had a

855
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: real chance of becoming being exonerated.

856
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 4: So you know, when we heard the news just like

857
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 4: everyone else, and our attorneys were telling us about how

858
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 4: you know what happened. And you know, one of the

859
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 4: worst things that, of course happens in the case like that,

860
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 4: is if you've been ran all about the five wills

861
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 4: of justice once, you absolutely do not trust that they

862
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 4: are going to do the right thing this time. And

863
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 4: so felt like, okay, you know this this the world

864
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 4: workers came out, he confessed to the crime. He confessed

865
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 4: in a compelling way that let him know that he

866
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 4: alone did this. They did his DNA and lo and

867
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 4: behold his DNA matches, and like I said, then when

868
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 4: they tested his DNA and as DNA matched, they knew

869
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 4: beyond a shadow of a doubt, Oh my goodness, we

870
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 4: did the wrong thing and convicted the wrong guys. And

871
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 4: we have to fix this, and so to judge vacate

872
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 4: our convictions. As a matter of fact, as we as

873
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 4: we go forward, we see that Robert Morgan's office as man,

874
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 4: had we known then what we know now, we would

875
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 4: have never convicted them. And I'm appreciative and happy that

876
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 4: he said that. But what we all submit is that

877
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 4: they did know back then what they knew now. They

878
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 4: did know Robert Morgansawt had people working for him and

879
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 4: under him that should have ever went after us. And

880
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 4: it cost the city millions of dollars. It costs a million.

881
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: Well, it costs so much more than just the millions

882
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: of dollars they had to pay out, because it also costs,

883
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: as we said, the lives of these other innocent people.

884
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: It costs your lives, It costs your family untold heartache

885
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: and paying. It costs tax money that we we had

886
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: to pay to keep you guys incarcerated. Right, that's that

887
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 1: runs into the millions of dollars when you're talking about

888
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: forty years of prison time collectively or more. When and

889
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: then we talk about the lost the lost taxes that

890
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: you could have been outside paying, Right, if you guys

891
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: were if you guys had gone through your normal schooling

892
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: and come out and then become gotten your jobs, whatever

893
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: you're going to be doing, we've been paying taxes you

894
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: had been contributing to society. So it's a it's a

895
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: loss for society in every conceivable way. And it was

896
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: preventable and it's despicable what happened. And I think everybody

897
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: owes you a tremendous apology, and so I'm going to

898
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: apologize to you on behalf of New York City and

899
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: America and the human race because none of this, none

900
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: of us, should have ever gone down the way it did.

901
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: And and let me I want to get to the

902
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: to what you're doing now, but and and talk about

903
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: your public speaking and other advocacy work that you're doing.

904
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: But before we get to that, so, so you had

905
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: this euphoria, it still took all this time to put

906
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: your life back together, but you've done it. And to

907
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: see you now, no one would ever know that you

908
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: had been through this stuff. I mean today, are you bitter?

909
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 4: You know I'm not bitter. I think that what it

910
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 4: is is that we've been able to take our circumstance.

911
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: And when I think we, I know that myself and Raymondsontanna,

912
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 4: we've gone out and we've spoken a lot more than

913
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 4: the other folks of a gentleman in the Centrafak geography case.

914
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 4: But what the idea is that be able to take

915
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 4: this this this uh shad part, this really horrific part

916
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 4: of life and turn it into something beautiful. And so

917
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 4: I'm reminded of what Nelson Mandela said when he was

918
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 4: talking about how he had to be in the world

919
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 4: and what he had to leave behind in the prison,

920
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 4: and he said he had to lead anger and resentment

921
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 4: and bitterness in the prison because and we all hear

922
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 4: him say, it's like, it's like drinking poisons and expecting

923
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 4: your enemy to die. To use that anger, you write it,

924
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 4: you paint it, you dance it, you march it, you voted,

925
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 4: you do everything about it. You talk it, never stop talking.

926
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 4: And so I say that because I've been trying to

927
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 4: utilize my energy and my platform to articulate what happened

928
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 4: to us in a way that makes sense, so that

929
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 4: other folks can understand how important their role is and

930
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 4: how important they need to be as regards to what

931
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 4: happens in the criminal justice system, you know. And so

932
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 4: I've taken that anger and I redirected it, I transformed it,

933
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 4: and I made it into something that is more beautiful

934
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 4: and more powerful.

935
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: And and and this is where I stand now, And

936
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. So if people want to,

937
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: I know you're doing a lot of public speaking.

938
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 4: You have a book.

939
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: But if people want to have you come and speak,

940
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: how did they reach out to you? How do they

941
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: contact you? What's the name of the book. Let's give

942
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: a nice plug for any of your social media or

943
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: anything else that you want to talk about.

944
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I used my real name on social media

945
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 4: so folks can connect with me Useef Salam y U

946
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 4: S E F S A L A A M on

947
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 4: all social media platforms. My photo was this so that

948
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 4: you'll know it's me. The name of the book is

949
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 4: Words of a Man. It's on my website. My website

950
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 4: is use speaks dot com. That's why U S E

951
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 4: F S P E A K S dot com. And

952
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 4: you know, folks can book me by emailing me. Why

953
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 4: U S G S at you speaks dot com used

954
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 4: to speaks dot com and I worked for myself, so

955
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 4: I'm you know, people can book me, people can bring me,

956
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 4: and so I can travel. And this is where it's at,

957
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 4: being able to bring these real life stories into spaces

958
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 4: that can really effectuate change, whether at be universities, whether

959
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 4: that be forums wide and broad.

960
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 1: So the last thing I would like to do is

961
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: is usually the last thing we do here on the show,

962
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: and It's actually my favorite part of the show, and

963
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: I think probably a lot of people people's favorite part

964
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: of the show. This is the part of the show

965
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: where I get quiet and I like to just turn

966
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: the microphone over to you for last words. Anything that's

967
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: on your mind, anything that you can share that will

968
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: give people some new perspective in your own words, yousef.

969
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 4: So what I want to do in this moment is

970
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 4: take people back in time. And I love to do

971
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 4: this because it's something that I do on the road

972
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 4: of my teaking engagement. So take them back into the courthouse.

973
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 4: I take them back to the day right after I

974
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 4: got convicted, and here we were standing in front of

975
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 4: the judge and we were about to be sent in,

976
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 4: and they axed us, do you have anything to say

977
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 4: before we sent inte? And rather than throwing myself on

978
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 4: the mercy of the court like everyone has been telling me,

979
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 4: I had been reading Malcolm Max, I had been reading

980
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 4: about Marcus Garvey. I had been reading about countless individuals

981
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 4: who are freedom fighters trying to fight for justice. And

982
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 4: what I stood up and said to the judge was

983
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 4: says I said, I'm not going to sit here at

984
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 4: your table and watch you eat and call myself dinner.

985
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 4: Sitting here at your table doesn't make me dinner, just

986
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 4: like being here in America doesn't make me an American.

987
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 4: Let us begin stresses the anger that is built up inside.

988
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 4: Rage is the anger that is no longer built kicking

989
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 4: on the sucker that soon you have killed American. Free

990
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 4: will doesn't mean you can kill and take another person's life.

991
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 4: You live your life, Trice. I'm a skill builder, So

992
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 4: on skills I do builds. We ain't to given knowledge

993
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 4: to this black man soon to enhance my words across

994
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 4: the land. I'm a smooth type of fellow, cool, common mellow.

995
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 4: I'm kind of laid back. But now I'm speaking so

996
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 4: that you know I got used and abused and even

997
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 4: was put on the news without CRUs. Some gay cus

998
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 4: selling out like fools and I'll check this who did

999
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 4: what and who did who?

1000
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: End?

1001
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 4: But in situation that you don't know what to do

1002
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 4: and some brothers go wild and we're not down with them.

1003
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 4: Who would have thought I'd have to lock in? I

1004
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 4: said it, choose checking the scene from how the situation

1005
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 4: was instead of getting facts. The media made you blur.

1006
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 4: Now the people don't know all they see is the media.

1007
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 4: They never hear the blame because they're constantly deceiving us.

1008
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 4: The DA is dead wrong. This is a master plan.

1009
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 4: This case is not a case. It's just the craft

1010
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 4: as sham Joe. Instead of trying to get your name made,

1011
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 4: it's reconstructing the crime that really paid me. It's lam

1012
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 4: e law being supreme over Satan, but no man as

1013
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 4: a law. If summer science dropper on the righteous path,

1014
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 4: So how the hell could I take a rapist path?

1015
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 4: Think about that and then think about this. All my

1016
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 4: friends it was me, they dished, said, dismissed, because I

1017
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 4: don't really need any friends like that, like when I

1018
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 4: really needed you. Where we're at, I'm not distant involved,

1019
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 4: but the ones that I called, they went and just

1020
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 4: me like I was an inch, small, like a rat,

1021
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 4: a mouse, not even the man wrongly accused, like the

1022
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 4: knife in my hands. How does it look me? Clock now?

1023
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 4: I'm surek, But like Matt Locke, soon the accused, it

1024
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 4: took the hook. It's real when she remembers and says,

1025
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 4: damn the cops that you win. I stand the cues.

1026
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 4: Few people stop this. Rachel dispersed and yo, you've seen

1027
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 4: that kid Vincent, he's in the Hurst and so we

1028
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 4: take it just Vic and Hurst Fields, white type bullet proof.

1029
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 4: Bet we had no kind of shield. How does it

1030
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 4: look they killed a black man being black. It's time

1031
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 4: we take a stand in our situation. You saw our

1032
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 4: faces clear, but not mine. Not because of fear. It's

1033
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 4: because the black race was disgrace and for the Muslim

1034
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 4: they must have felt shame. But I'm not to blame.

1035
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 4: With the words you fought. The media took our words,

1036
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 4: the paper, the ones the cops distorted. I told the

1037
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 4: cops truth like this, and then boom, they were smacking

1038
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 4: my man. Koby Wine's in the next room. Now, why

1039
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 4: no minds that Roses can't stand the Bobby lawn. They

1040
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 4: never helped. They just babblan. I used to think the

1041
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 4: people and cops were cooled, but who protects us from you?

1042
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 4: I stand the que and as I wrapped it up,

1043
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 4: the judge's face was getting angrier and angrier, and I

1044
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 4: could tell they were about to throw the book it

1045
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 4: and then I took my seat and it gave me.

1046
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 4: The maximum amount of time that they could give me

1047
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 4: was just five to tent And they hoped that they

1048
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 4: could have given me more. I'm sure that's what I said.

1049
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 4: That actually is one of the poems that's in my

1050
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 4: book Words of a Man that's on my website. I

1051
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 4: also when I come around and seek, I usually have

1052
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 4: some with me as well. That's good.

1053
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: Well, all I can say is, you know, I wish

1054
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 1: you all the best, all the blessings of life. I'm

1055
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: so happy to see you thriving, building your family, building

1056
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: your career, and spreading the word alongside so many of

1057
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: us in the movement. And I look forward to working

1058
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: with you and spending time with you in the future.

1059
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: And I just want to thank you again for taking

1060
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: your time to be on the show, and I want

1061
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: to thank the audience also for listening. This has been

1062
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: a very special and moving episode of Wrongful Conviction. So yusef,

1063
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: thank you again, my pleasure, Thank you for having them.

1064
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1065
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

1066
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 2: It really helps.

1067
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project, and

1068
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1069
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to event future wrongful convictions. Go

1070
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

1071
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1072
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1073
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Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

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Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

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Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

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Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association

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Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one