1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: And boy do we have a treat for you today. 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: That's right, we're we're chatting with Carl Zimmer about his 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: new book, She Has Her Mother's Laugh, The Powers, Perversions 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: and Potential of Heredity. This is a fantastic book. I 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: I was trying to finish it before we talked to 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: him today, and I was up till two am last 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: night and getting to the very last page. But it 11 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: was worth it. It is a great book. I really 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: highly recommended. It's a brick that's just full of weird, 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: interesting delights and insights about how our views of heredity 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: have changed over the years, all of the good and 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: all of the evil that that knowledge has been used for, 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: and uh and also where it's going in the future. Yeah. Yeah, 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: this it's a fascinating book. I also I got to 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: see him in conversation with the Maria Knakova at World 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: Science Festival this year, in which he talked about the 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: themes in the book as well, so it was a 21 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: real It's a real delight to have him here on 22 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: the show. And if you want to check out She 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Has Her Mother's Laugh. It is available in hardback, digital 24 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: and as an audio book. So, uh, we hope you 25 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: enjoy our interview with him, but certainly go check out 26 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: his book as well for just an in depth, riveting 27 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: journey through heredity. Now, wait a minute, we should say 28 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: who he is. I don't think we've done that if 29 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: you're if you're not familiar with Carl Zimmer and Carl 30 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer is a prolific, excellent science writer. He writes 31 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: for the New York Times. I think I've also seen 32 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: these articles in the Atlantic and National Geographic all over 33 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: the place. Uh. He's written a lot about parasites and uh, 34 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: some of the most interesting stuff in biology is is 35 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: Karl's territory. And uh and I really had a good 36 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: time talking to him today. Yeah. Some of his past 37 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: books include Parasite, rex Evolution, The Triumph of an Idea, 38 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: and Microcosm. So, without other ado, here's our conversation with 39 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer. So, Carl, what led you to write a 40 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: book about heredity? I guess in a way, I've been 41 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: thinking about heredity for forever. Really. I mean, I when 42 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: I was a kid, you know, I would uh think 43 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: back on my ancestors that my parents told me about, 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: and you know, I wonder, like, oh wow, if if 45 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, Roger Goodspeed had not sailed from England to 46 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: Massachusetts in the sixteen thirties, would I ever exist? You know, 47 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. And then when I became a father, 48 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: I've got two teenage girls now, and you know that 49 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: immediately brought to bear just how urgent and mysterious heredity 50 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: can be. Because now they're these two people walking around 51 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: who have inherited a lot of my genes, and you 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: know what, what is it that I'm giving them that 53 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: that suddenly be the very pressing issue? And I guess 54 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: what really then kind of crystallize it all for me 55 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: was that in the past few years, I've been doing 56 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: a lot of reporting from the New York Times and 57 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: elsewhere about the real revolution happening in biology, allowing scientists 58 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: to sequenced DNA, to rewrite DNA, and to also look 59 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: at other kinds of biology that might help, uh create 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: this thing that we call heredity. H And so it 61 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: just it all kind of came together and I realized 62 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: that this would be something that I really wanted to 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: spend a couple of years really exploring deeply. So you 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: mentioned the idea of the sort of personal curiosity about 65 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: our ancestors, and you talk in the book about how 66 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: we often do family genealogies to sort of learn something 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: about ourselves, as if the seeds of who we are 68 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: are somehow present in our really distant ancestors. But how 69 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: many generations back do you have to go before those 70 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: relationships with our ancestors really don't matter all that much 71 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: in terms of genetic closeness. You know, you don't have 72 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: to go back that far. And that just has to 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: do with how parents passed down their DNA to their kids. 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: You know, we each have two copies of each gene 75 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: for the most part, but uh, you know, parents only 76 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: passed down one copy of a given gene to each child, 77 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: And so if you repeat that process generation after generation, 78 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: there's a sort of a kind of a stochastic, kind 79 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,559 Speaker 1: of random process that will basically lead to you know, uh, 80 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: some descendants not having any DNA at all from a 81 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: particular ancestor. Um. There's only so much room in your 82 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: genome and you can't pack in all the DNA from 83 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: all your ancestors basically, and so geneticis have done some 84 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: back of the envelope calculations and if you go back 85 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: let's say ten generations, um, that would be like your 86 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: ancestors in the sixteen hundreds. Uh, maybe only about half 87 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: of them have a genetic link to you. The rest 88 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: they're still your ancestors. But you cannot point to any 89 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: piece of DNA in your genome and say, oh, I 90 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: got that from from this particular person you know. So um, 91 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: So I think that actually, like really shows how we 92 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: have to, um think think bigger when it comes to heredity. 93 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: It's not just some particular bit of DNA that that 94 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: gives heredity its meaning. Well, on the other side of 95 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: that coin, um, could you talk a little bit about 96 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: what the Yale mathematician Joseph Chang discovered about human ancestry. 97 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: It seems sort of like the flip side of what 98 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: you're just talking about. Yeah, I mean, so, you know, 99 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: so much about heredity is counterintuitive and almost you know, 100 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: it seems to contradict itself, and that's in a way 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: what makes it so fascinating. So I just told you 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: about how if you go back a certain number of generations, 103 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna encounter their ancestors from whom you've inherited. No 104 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: DNA at all. Um. But there's an interesting feature of 105 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: human ancestry, which is that, um, you know, people uh, 106 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: everybody today, Uh you know, it shares a common ancestor 107 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: with some people who lived about five thousand years ago, 108 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: roughly speaking in other words, UM, if you if you, 109 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: it's just uh you can and you can figure this 110 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: out as just Chang did, just by looking at genealogy 111 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: is a mathematical problem. Um, just think of think of 112 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: our genealogy is a kind of a branching network. Um. 113 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: The thing is though that uh you know are if 114 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: you think about your family tree, um, and you think, well, 115 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: there's me, and then you branch off to your parents, 116 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: and then they branch off to their parents and so 117 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: on and so forth. Um. If you just keep branching 118 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: in that simple way, you're gonna end, you know, a 119 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: few thousand years back with more ancestors than there are 120 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: people who have ever lived. You know, we're talking chillions 121 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: of people. And that's absurd. So so that's actually not 122 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: a realistic model of your ancestry. The fact is that 123 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: your aunt all of you know, your parents are cousins 124 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: now either that you know, in some cases first cousins 125 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: get married, but in other cases they're very distant cousins. 126 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: Another what that means is that your parents share an ancestor, 127 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: a common ancestor somewhere in the past. It could be 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of years ago, but it doesn't matter. 129 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: They have an ancestor. So what that does is it 130 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: folds the family tree back in on itself. And what 131 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: Joseph Chang realized was that that actually does something very 132 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: interesting to human ancestry. What it means is that you 133 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: do not have to go back very far to find 134 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: somebody who is the common ancestor literally everyone on earth. 135 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: Uh and uh, it's just in the past few thousand 136 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: years that you could find people like that. Um. Now, 137 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: of course you know those common ancestors, you know they 138 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: for each of us that that's one person or a 139 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: few people out of thousands upon thousands of ancestors. But 140 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: it's something that ties us all together. And the irony 141 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: is that you know, people are really uh uh really 142 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: love to connect themselves to someone famous, you know, like, oh, 143 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: did you know that I am descended from Lilliam the Conqueror. 144 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: And the fact is that probably probably everybody of European 145 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: descent is and is a descendant of William the Conqueror. 146 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: Probably everybody of European descent is a descendant of Charlemagne Um. 147 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: And you know, it's possible that everybody on earth is 148 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: a descendant of you know, maybe Cleopatra. It's like, that's 149 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: just the nature of human genealogy is that it's we're 150 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: all descended from kings. That doesn't make anybody special. Well 151 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: as as long as we're gazing backwards in time, here, 152 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: can you tell us how ancient thinkers contemplated heredity? The 153 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: weird thing is that they really didn't, and they at 154 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: least they didn't think about heredity in the way that 155 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: we do. Uh. You know that if you go back 156 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: and you you look at what Hippocrates would say or 157 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: Aristotle would say, Uh, this, this whole model of how 158 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: we inherit something you know, microscopic and biological that that 159 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: determines how we ended up the way we are just 160 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: would not compute for them. And so you know, you know, 161 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: someone like Aristotle would say, like, well, you know, the 162 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: reason that one generation looks like the previous one is 163 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: just because it's the same chemistry. Um, you know, of 164 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: course you're going to be the uh, you're going to 165 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: be the same because you know, it's the same set 166 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: of processes that produced a person that produced you. So 167 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: what's the big deal? And you know, the word heredity, 168 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's a very old word, but it only 169 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: referred to basically inheriting stuff. Um, you know, and I'm 170 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: talking not talking about jeans, I'm talking about houses. Uh, 171 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, farmland, things like that. You know, So in 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, there are lots of rules about you know, 173 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: who got to be an heir, and that's what the 174 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: word meant at that point. And it's really fascinating, Like 175 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: you have to you have to wait a long time 176 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: before you start to even see the first glimmers of 177 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: how we think about heredity today. Um. My favorite example 178 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: is in the fifteen fifteen, around fifteen eighty, uh, Montana 179 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: this this famous essays. He writes an essay about his 180 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: father because Matennia now is is starting to get older 181 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: and he's developing kidney stones, and it occurs to him 182 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: that his father had kidney stones and around the same 183 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: age and He basically writes Sussi saying, well, what is 184 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: up with that? Now? Did I get these kids stones 185 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: from my father? And like, if so, how because you know, 186 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: when I was born, my father was young and he 187 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: didn't have kidney stones, So what exactly went from him 188 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: to me? Um? And you want to just you know, 189 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: shout at the page like it's it's Janes, it's Jeans. 190 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: But you know he can't hear you, you know, like 191 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: he his question went fundamentally unanswered for centuries. Um And 192 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: so yeah, so so uh, it's really need to look 193 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: back and and see how. You know, the way we 194 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: think is not how everyone always thought. You know, the 195 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: way we think about heredity is is a product of 196 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: really the modern age. So did the selective breeding of 197 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: animals and plants inform classical and medieval thinkers at all 198 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: about the possible nature of heredity, because it seems it's 199 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of seems like people such as 200 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: Aristotle or Albertus Magnus would have would have looked at 201 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: how we bred flowers, crops and farm animals more were, 202 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: at least in addition to the influence of geography or experience, 203 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: you would think, so I would I would have thought so. 204 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: But I think that's because we are in the century 205 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: and we look back and say, well, everyone must have 206 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: thought the way we did. But there are actually, you know, 207 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: whole books written, uh you know by Roman writers about 208 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: farming for example, UM, and you can search them as 209 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I have sat down and look through these 210 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: books for anything resembling what you're talking about, and it's 211 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: just not there. They do not talk about, oh, well, 212 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: there's some you know quality in this particular variety of 213 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: olives that you know, if you if you if you 214 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: bread it, it will pass it down to two future 215 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: generations of olive trees. That this isn't there. Instead, they'll 216 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: say like, well, make sure that you know you're you're 217 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: growing it on good soil, make sure your your farm 218 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: gets a good supply rain. It's all about the environment. 219 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: And it isn't really until I would argue, it's not 220 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: really until the seventeen hundreds that uh, you start to 221 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: see these farmers, these livestock breeders really take interest in this, UM. 222 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: And part of it is that these European countries are 223 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: all um looking for ways to use science to uh 224 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: make their countries wealthier. And you know, they're thinking, well, 225 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: if we can, we can, if we can produce new 226 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: varieties of animals implants, um, then we we will enrich ourselves. Uh. 227 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: And there's this one breeder named Robert Bakewell who produces 228 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: an entirely new breed of sheep just by starting to 229 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: think about heredity, to think about which individuals those sheep 230 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: is he gonna mate together? Is he gonna just only 231 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: mate within his flock? Is he gonna go pick out 232 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: other ones from other flocks to mate? Um? And lo 233 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: and behold he produces this this very successful new breed. 234 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: And you know, people like Charles Darwin look at that 235 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: and say, what just happened? How did they do that? Um? 236 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: And in Germany and in Central Europe there's a big 237 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: push to do the same thing with sheep, to do 238 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: that with crops as well, and uh and to try 239 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: to understand what are these rules. And one of those 240 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: people who's trying to understand those rules is none other 241 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: than Gregor mendel Um. So his his breeding experiments, you know, 242 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: the foundation of genetics comes out of this new push 243 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: to try to use heredity to enrich nations. All Right, 244 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna 245 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: jump right back into the interview and we're back. So 246 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: at what point does the modern idea of heredity really emerge. Well, 247 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: I'd say in the late eighteen hundreds, UM, people start 248 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: to talk about heredity as a scientific question. And Charles 249 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: Darwin is really important in all of this because, you know, 250 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: he he comes up with the theory of evolution and 251 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: it depends on heredity. In other words, Um, you know, 252 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: the only way for natural selection to work is so 253 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: if parents can pass down traits to their offspring to 254 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: give them some advantage and surviving and reproducing. And so 255 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: it's very obvious to Darwin that, you know that that 256 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: heredity is this huge glaring question in the middle of 257 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: his theory, and he and he works really hard to 258 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: try to find out for himself how heredity works. And 259 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: he's he's very aware of a lot of the research 260 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: that's going on at the time, looking to the discovery 261 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: of cells and the discovery that there are little things 262 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: inside of cells, but no one's quite sure what they are. UM. 263 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: And so he develops a theory that there are particles 264 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: in the cells throughout our body that they somehow stream 265 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: into the eggs and sperm and uh then become something 266 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: like we the way we think of genes um. That 267 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: doesn't pan out. You know, his cousin, Francis Galton, tries 268 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: to test it by injecting blood from uh, you know, 269 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: black rabbits into white rabbits, you know, different colored rabbits, 270 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: and seeing if that changes the color of their offspring. 271 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: Doesn't happen. Uh and uh So it's not really until 272 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: after Darwin is dead that scientists start to really understand 273 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: chromosomes and then rediscover mental and it all clicks together, 274 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: and the science that they that they call genetics is 275 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: born in nine uh and and you know, the it's 276 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: really you can see how exciting it is for the 277 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: scientists at the time. William Bateson, who coined the term genetics. 278 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: He he writes at the time that you know, the 279 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: science of heredity has been red illuctionized. You know that 280 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: finally they feel like they can they can understand heredity 281 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: um in its fundamental basis. So so how do we 282 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: go from this point of of of just excitement and 283 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: discovery and just fall so steeply into eugenics and then 284 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: ultimately the horrors of the third Reich well, if you 285 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: look back, the roots of eugenics UM go back pretty far. UM. 286 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: You know. So Uh. On the one hand, uh, so 287 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: our modern conception of race uh starts to develop as 288 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: early as really the fifteen hundreds are the fourteen hundreds, 289 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: even where in Spain, UH, Jews are are being considered 290 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: a separate race of people, and and and noble families 291 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: have to do have to draw out genealogies to prove 292 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: that they don't have any Jews in their in their ancestry. Um. 293 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: Other wise they you know, they won't be able to 294 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: get that good job in government or so on. And 295 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: so that starts to develop this idea that that groups 296 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: of people are fundamentally different in some way that is 297 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: carried on from one generation to the next. Um. Then uh, 298 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: in the in the eighteen hundreds, you start to see, 299 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: you know, a real concern about UM poverty and crime 300 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: and and a lot of people start to to make 301 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: claims that these are being carried down in certain families. 302 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: You know, there are these bad families and why is 303 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: it that one generation is just as bad as the 304 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: previous one. And you know, people talk about some sort 305 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 1: of hereditary curse that they must have and and then 306 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, how do we keep that curse from being propagated. 307 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: And so then when genetics gets discovered, UM, a lot 308 00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: of actual genesis themselves and uh and other and others 309 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: say well, aha, like here's here's the basis for what 310 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: we've been talking about for decades now. UM. And you know, 311 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: the word eugenics had actually been coined in eighteen eighties 312 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: by Francis Coulton, Uh, Darwin's cousin, and he just thought, well, 313 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, if intelligence is inherited, then why don't we 314 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: just essentially breed people away we breed sheep, So you 315 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: just pick out the individuals who seemed to have you know, 316 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: the most genius he would call it, and then encourage 317 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: them to have lots of kids. And and he had 318 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: these dreams that to produced what he called the galaxy 319 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: of genius in the future. UM. But by the time 320 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: that eugenics arrives in the United States and genetics emerges, 321 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: it takes on a much darker cast because people say, well, 322 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: what we really need to focus on is these people 323 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: who have who we believe have genes that we don't like, 324 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: and we want to prevent them from reproducing, because that's 325 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: going to drag down our country, and so what are 326 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: we to keep them from reproducing? And um that leads 327 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: to sterilization and much worse. So in reading your chapter 328 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: about Henry Goddard and the origins of the American eugenics movement, 329 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: I'm struck that this is a potential example of the 330 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: dangers of bad research, Like you draw a really disturbing 331 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: picture of how but like sloppy or fraudulent work that 332 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: became the basis of Henry Goddard's published writings on heredity 333 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: can be viewed in some ways is contributing directly to 334 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: real world consequences, like the horrors of for sterilization in 335 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: the United States or mass murder in Europe. Do you 336 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: ever think, when you see bad science or pseudoscience being 337 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: being publicized today that it could ever lead to such 338 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: nightmares that even its authors might not have imagined? Uh, 339 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I think that we can't rule 340 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: out those kinds of possibilities. I mean, it might be very, 341 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: very unlikely, But if you look at history, you can 342 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: see how bad science combined with existing prejudices lead to 343 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: really horrific outcomes. And it wasn't that the science was 344 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: somehow appropriated by the pseudo scientists or something. Uh. Eugenics 345 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: was embraced by most of the leading um biologists of 346 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: the time. UH and Uh, there were different forms of eugenics, 347 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: you know. So some people were very much sort of concerned, 348 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: were quite racist and you know, concerned about uh, you know, 349 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: the white quote unquote race being you know, polluted by 350 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: other races. Um. But then there were progressives who thought 351 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: that this was going to be part of their grand 352 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: plan for making society a better, fairer place. Um. And 353 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: I think it's really important to look at these episodes 354 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: in history to see how things go bad. Um. And 355 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's arrogant for any of 356 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: us to say, well, things like this could never happen again, 357 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, and somehow we're vaccinated from from these sorts 358 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: of things. But we can draw lessons from the past, 359 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: and we can see how, um, how humble we need 360 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: to be in the face of complexity in in our 361 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: own biology. You know. We you know, I think we're 362 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: in like in another revolution, the way we were hundred 363 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: years ago. You know, a hundred years ago, genetics itself 364 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: was profoundly new, that gene was a new thing. Uh. 365 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: Now we're at the point where we're looking at genomes, 366 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: in other words, all the genes in our in our selves, 367 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: and we can we can see them down to the 368 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: atomic detail. Um, but there's still a vast amount we 369 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: do not understand about it, and UM, you know, we 370 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: we cannot let that be an opportunity to you. Uh 371 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, card out our old biases and prejudices and say, oh, 372 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: I see now science backs up what I was saying 373 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: all along about those other people. UM, we can't. We 374 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: just we cannot let that happen. Again. I think that's 375 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: a really good point. And I also think you can 376 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: even look at it as there's a flip side to 377 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: it where modern discoveries of genomics really complicated or in 378 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: some sense is undermine what many people have traditionally understood 379 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: as the concept of race within humans. Right. Yeah, So 380 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: the scientific concept of race uh developed in the in 381 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, and it was really um, very much 382 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,719 Speaker 1: spurred on by, uh by what Europe was doing at 383 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: the time. So Europe was in the midst of building 384 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: up huge colonies um and enslaving many many people. There 385 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: was a need for serve legal and moral justifications for 386 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: doing this, and a lot of it, uh was based 387 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: on these concepts of race, so that for example, you know, 388 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: Africans were were claimed to be a completely separate race 389 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: uh that you know, had inherent uh inferiority to the 390 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: white race. And so therefore slavery is okay. And you 391 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: can see this again and again in in lots of 392 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: lots of writing at the time. Uh. Now, even in 393 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, Um, there were there were indications 394 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: that this kind that genetics was not aligning with these 395 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: these uh old ideas about race, and they just weren't 396 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: fitting neatly. Um. You it was very it was it 397 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: was becoming harder and harder to draw any particularly bright 398 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: line between groups of people. I mean, obviously people are different, uh. 399 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: You know, there are lots of differences and people in 400 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: terms of skin color and height and shapes of faces 401 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: and culture and all the rest of it. But the 402 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: genes were not supporting these old ideas about race. And 403 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: by the midnighteteen hundreds of people, a lot of anthropologists 404 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: and geneticisis were saying, you know, the word race is 405 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: so burdened with so much that's terrible and immoral and 406 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: has so little connection with the way we're starting to 407 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: understand populations. Let's just get abandoned it. Um, that really 408 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: hasn't that really didn't happen. But nevertheless, like now where 409 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: we can look at the whole genomes. Um. Yeah, the 410 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: whole thing with race now is is it just is 411 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: it's a bit one. The way one genete has put 412 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: it to me is like, well, you know, like talking 413 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: for us, like talking about race is like the way 414 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: Greeks talked about the you know, the four elements air, fire, water, earth, 415 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: like you know it. You know, Aristotle could explain all 416 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: sorts of things uh that way, and they seemed good 417 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: to him. But you know, we know that there's things 418 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: are much more complex than the four elements, and if 419 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: you forced physicists to go back to the four elements, 420 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: they'd be very unhappy. So Jenets they're saying like, please 421 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: don't make us go back to you know, the genetic 422 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: equivalent of the four elements. You know, we're you know, 423 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: they're very interested in ancestry and how populations mixed together, 424 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: how they become isolated, and all the rest of it. 425 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: But these old ideas about race and on all the 426 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: connotations of race they don't map onto it at all, 427 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: so they just don't want to use it now. Of course, 428 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: in addition to just the passing on of genetic information, UH, 429 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: we also have epigenetics. And even as you explore the 430 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: effects of the microbiome, can can you talk about how 431 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: these have changed our definition of heredity? So in the 432 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: eight hundreds, heredity becomes a scientific question. You know, what 433 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: is it that makes one generation connected to the past? 434 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: Why is it that generations resemble their forerunners? Um? What 435 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: what are these connections? And Uh, genetics provided a huge 436 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: part of that answer, which is that well, genes get 437 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: copied and then transmitted through eggs and sperm and uh. 438 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: And so that was a huge revolution and understanding. But 439 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that that is all that heredity can be. 440 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: I mean there's still the at least the logical possibility 441 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: that there are other ways that each generation be can 442 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: be connected to the to the previous ones. And so 443 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: in my book I talk about different forms of heredity 444 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: that scientists are exploring. UM and so you know, one 445 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: one very exciting possibility is what you referred to as epigenetics. 446 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: And epigenetics is kind of a broad term, but roughly speaking, 447 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: what it refers to is the molecules inside our cells 448 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: that control our genes. That that allows some genes to 449 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: be switched on and to produce proteins and others that 450 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: are kept silent um. And you know, it's it's very 451 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: clear that this is incredibly important to our existence. You know, 452 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: it's what makes your skin cells be skin cells, and 453 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: you're you know, brain cells be brain cells, like they 454 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: are using different genes in the same genome. And when 455 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: these cells divide um the you know, a skin cell 456 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: does not normally instantly become a neuron or or you 457 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: know it doesn't you don't grow a tooth on your 458 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: back of your hand um. And that has to do 459 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: with epigenetics um. And so what does this have to 460 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: do with heredity. Well, you know, when those cells divide, 461 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: they are basically inheriting the genes and the epigenetics of 462 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: their mother cell. But you know that the possibility arises, well, 463 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: what if you pass those down to the next general 464 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: ation altogether, you know, through eggs and sperm um. And 465 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: there's some evidence that that that can happen. And what 466 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: makes it especially exciting is that you know, through our lives, 467 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: experiences can change the epigenetic makeup of ourselves. You know, 468 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: so if you if you get sick, if you smoke, 469 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: if you experience stress, those all seem to have an influence. 470 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: And so the open question is, well, how much can 471 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: those experiences we have in our lives then influence future generations? UM. 472 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: I think that the jury is still very much out 473 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to people. UM, But in other species, 474 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: especially plants, there's lots of evidence that that really is 475 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: something that happens. You know, a plant goes through a 476 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: drought and generations later there's still an epigenetic mark on 477 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: its descendants. So yeah, epigenetics is in a really exciting area. 478 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: So you just alluded to some of the controversy about epigenetics, 479 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: and I guess there are other forms of ideas of 480 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: non genetic inheritance, but epigenetics in some ways still remains controversial, 481 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: especially in humans. Like you're talking about, if you're comfortable 482 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: speculating and if you had to guess, how would you 483 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: imagine our picture of non genetic inheritance might change over 484 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: the next fifty years or so, what's your sense? You know, 485 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: I think that it is actually possible that we'll just 486 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: find that UM. Human epigenetics is just not really that important. 487 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm actually I think there's reason to be 488 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: kind of pessimistic. Um that you know, there are these 489 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: very cantalizing studies, but they're small and they could just 490 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: be the result of noise and so on, and and 491 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: yet you know, we really want epigenetics to be real. Um. 492 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: I mean, epigenetics has totally taken hold of the popular consciousness. 493 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: And you know, I was astonished to learn not long 494 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: ago that you can take classes and epigenetic yoga, which 495 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: not kidding, you can google it. And the thinking is, 496 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: the claim is that you know that by doing this 497 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: yoga you change the epigenetic profile of yourselves and I 498 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: and you know there are psych psychiatrists who will offer 499 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: you epigenetic analysis to basically undo the trauma that you 500 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: inherited from past generations. Um. It really speaks to us 501 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: in a very profound way. But I actually don't think 502 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: that science is going to really hold up very well. Um, 503 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: because are but I don't think it looks like our 504 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: biology just doesn't really allow that to make much of 505 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: a difference. But you know, the flip side is that culture, 506 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: um is actually I I would argue an incredibly important 507 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: form of fredity, especially for our species. We we pass 508 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: down not just our genes to the next generation, but 509 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: all of our knowledge and and beliefs and customs and 510 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: so on, and those those get pell down through the 511 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: generations UM in a very hereditary way and UM, and 512 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: that's actually very different from other species. And I would 513 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: and you know, in the book, I talked about how 514 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: you could argue that civilization itself is the product of 515 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: our very special form of cultural inheritance. So in talking 516 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: about non genetic inheritance, you've got potentially epigenetics, though the 517 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: juries out on that, You've got, you've got culture. But 518 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: we should talk a little bit about microbiology. Can you 519 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: tell the story of how you found out that your 520 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: belly button contained bacteria only known to exist in the 521 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: Mariana Trench? Absolutely? Yeah. So I've been incredibly fascinated by 522 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: the microbiome, you know, all the bacteria that live on 523 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: us and in us for quite some time and and 524 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: I have been doing some reporting on it as scientists 525 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: have found new ways to to explore our microbiome. And 526 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: it used to be that you just have to scrape, 527 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: you know some you know a little bit of skin, 528 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: or take a stool sample and taken into a lab 529 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: and try to grow bacteria. And the fact is that 530 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: very few of the bacteria that live on us uh 531 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: or in US enjoy being in a petri dish on 532 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: their own. It just it makes them miserable and they 533 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: don't grow. So we had a very impoverished view of 534 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: this inner world until scientists were able to just say, Okay, 535 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: we're going to grow into this sample and just grab 536 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: out all the DNA and we're gonna sequence all the 537 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: DNA and from that we're going to figure out what 538 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: is in there. And that totally revolution. I studied the 539 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: microbiome because now you didn't have to grow these critters. 540 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: You could just fish out their DNA and look at that. 541 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: So it turns out we have hundreds, maybe thousands of 542 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: species in our guts and on our skin and so 543 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 1: on and um and so you know, one day at 544 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: a meeting, UM I was walking past a scientist who 545 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: was holding out a qute tip and he said, I'm 546 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: doing a study on people's belly buttons. Would you mind 547 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: giving me some of your belly button lint? Belly button lint, 548 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: and I want to see what's in there, you know, 549 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: and for someone like me, you don't have to ask 550 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: me twice. I'm like, give me that cute tip. So 551 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: you know, I go off into the bathroom and I 552 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, fiddle around and don't get in a little 553 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: tube that they gave me and handed it back, and 554 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: then they went off and they looked at all the 555 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: DNA there was on that cute tip, and you know, 556 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: a lot of it was my own skin cells, but 557 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: then a whole lot of it was not um. And 558 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: actually they identified fifty three species as I recall of 559 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: bacteria just in my belly button, and uh, it was 560 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: amazing to to look at, uh, the information about each 561 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: of those species. And so one of them it's had 562 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: only there's only no own from a sample at the 563 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: bottom of the ocean. They marry on a trench um. 564 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: And there's another one that I have that's only been 565 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: found in soil in Japan. I've never been to Japan, 566 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: so um. But you know, this was entirely unsurprising to 567 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: this scientist, because you know, he was looking at lots 568 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: of people and was finding people with you know, over 569 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: a hundred species just in their belly button alone, and 570 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: from all sorts of different places. Um. So what does 571 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: this have to do with heredity? Well, you know, I 572 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: I did not inherit that marry on a trench bacteria 573 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: from my parents. UM. It's just you know, we have 574 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: all of this, these these bacteria in the environment um, 575 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: and some of them have become very well adapted to 576 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: living on our bodies. Um, and we just picked them 577 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: up um through our life. But it does seem like 578 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: that the microbiome UM, that there is some heredity to it. UM. 579 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: The best examples come from certain animals like that passed 580 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: down bacteria to their offspring. Then these bacteria can only 581 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: live inside these animals, and without those bacteria, these animals die. 582 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: The cockroaches are actually a great example of this. So 583 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: you know, one reason that cockroaches are so successful is 584 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: because they harbor one species of bacteria in a special 585 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: little organ um where it breaks down some of their 586 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: food and gives them nutrients. Um. And these bacteria never 587 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: live outside of the cockroaches, and actually they're they're sitting 588 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: inside of cockroach cells. And then in the female cockroaches, 589 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: those cells crawl over to an egg and rip open, 590 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: and then the bacteria infect the eggs so that cockroaches 591 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: are born completely infected with these bacteria. That's that to 592 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: me just seems that's heredity. I mean, these bacteria are 593 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: being passed down from millions of years from parents to offspring. 594 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: Um so the US and now as well. Are is 595 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: that true for humans? Um? Maybe not, uh, you know, 596 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: in that particular way, but um, you know, it is 597 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: possible that there are a lot of species that are 598 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: very much adapted to us. You know, maybe mothers are 599 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: passing down certain kinds of bacteria in the birth canal 600 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: or during breastfeeding. Um. And maybe the most dramatic example 601 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: of all is that in all of ourselves we generate 602 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: fuel with these little blobs called mitochondria, which have their 603 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: own DNA in them. And the reason they have their 604 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: own DNA is because they started out as bacteria and 605 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: about two billion years ago and our single celled ancestors, 606 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: those bacteria infected our ancestors and then took up permanent 607 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: residence in there and we cannot live without them today. 608 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: So um so, so MicroB is gonna have a very 609 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: powerful part in heredity. Do you think our expanding consciousness 610 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 1: about the full scope of heredity from like generation into 611 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: symbiance or even to camerism should force us to re 612 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: examine our ideas about what it means to be an individual, 613 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: an individual animal, and what the biological and categorical boundaries 614 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: of the self really are. Absolutely, uh, you know, I 615 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: think that uh, you know, heredity does not actually follow 616 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: a lot of the simple rules that we assume. It does, uh, 617 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: and it and it does bring into question what it 618 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: means to be an individual because you know, we think 619 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: of he started out with some original genome in a 620 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: fertilized egg, so we inherited half of that genome for 621 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: me to our parents. It came together in this new 622 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: combination and that's us. But you know that is not 623 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: actually us um, and in lots of different ways. So 624 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: in one way, I mean, if you actually follow the 625 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: cells that divide in an embryo, those cells can mutate 626 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: and then utate again and mutate again, so that if 627 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: you were to look at, say, any two neurons in 628 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: your brain, they would be different from each other because 629 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: they have acquired different mutations as we developed. UM. So 630 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: there is no one genome in our body because we 631 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: are what scientists say call us our mosaics. UM. But 632 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: then that's not the not the end of it. UM. 633 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: So you know, we think of heredity is going down 634 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: through the generations, but heredity can also come back up 635 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: in reverse. Uh. And so one example of this is 636 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: um when women become pregnant, UH, cells from their fetus 637 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: will circulate around in their blood. You can actually you 638 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,439 Speaker 1: can actually draw blood from a pre new woman and 639 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: sequence the genome of the fetus. Uh we that is 640 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: done on a regular basis. Now uh after pregnancy, uh, 641 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: those fetal cells may go away because of the mother's 642 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: immune system is clearing them out. But surprisingly often uh 643 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: those cells can establish themselves in a mother's liver, syroid, gland, 644 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: even her brain. And scientists refer to uh such people 645 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: as chimeras. Um it's after the you know, the beast 646 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: of Greek mythology. And you can get chimeras also from 647 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:46,399 Speaker 1: twins in the womb who are sharing DNA sharing cells uh. 648 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: And so you can literally like have um. You know 649 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: that one of the first discoveries of this was a 650 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: woman who gave blood in the nineteen fifties and totally 651 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,439 Speaker 1: baffled uh the blood bank because she was giving two 652 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,959 Speaker 1: types of blood at the same time. And he said, 653 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: this is not possible, you know, there must be some 654 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: contamination somewhere. But it turned out that her blood was 655 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: made up from two individuals, herself and a twin who 656 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: had died when he was in infancy. Uh. And so 657 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, and this is not something that's rare. Timerism 658 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: is probably quite common among humans, and it really challenges 659 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,240 Speaker 1: these these ideas that we we tell ourselves about heredity 660 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: and individuality. One of the weirdest and most interesting types 661 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: of heredity you discussed in the book is that, I 662 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: think you said of it's eight or so lines of 663 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: contagious cancer found in nature so far. Can you talk 664 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: a little bit about contagious cancer and does it make 665 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: sense to think of this cancer as an independent animal 666 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: or organism of its own type, or as sort of 667 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: an infection from an original animals genome. Yeah, this is 668 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: where heredity gets really weird because us, you know, when 669 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,479 Speaker 1: when cancer arises in our bodies, it's a it's another 670 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: one of these cases of mosaicism. In other words, Uh, 671 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: these cancer cells are gaining mutations that the rest of 672 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: the body doesn't have, and those mutations allows them to 673 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 1: reproduce quickly and to be very aggressive and destructive. Now, Um, 674 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: cancer usually uh, you know, either is wiped out by 675 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: the body or is lethal. In either case, you don't 676 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: have cancer surviving beyond the life of its host. We 677 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: we think of that as being weird, but it turns 678 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: out that in fact cancer can endure um And this 679 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: was really first discovered um in in a uh in 680 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 1: a case with dogs where dogs would be uh developing 681 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: um these these tumors uh. And it was very odd 682 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,280 Speaker 1: that they the cancer seemed to spread like an infectious disease, 683 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 1: and so people scratching their head over this, and then 684 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: they realized that actually what had happened was that the 685 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 1: cancer cells themselves were spreading from one dog to another 686 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,799 Speaker 1: to another UM and so that the cancer cells were 687 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: not in fact related to the dogs that they were in. 688 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: And if you look at the DNA of this cancer, 689 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: it goes back to some dog that lived maybe ten 690 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, and it has just been spreading from 691 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: dog to dog ever since, and it's been mutating along 692 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,439 Speaker 1: the way. And it's and so it's the thing that 693 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's what do you call it? I mean, 694 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what we could call it, but you know, 695 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: some have argued that it should be just given its 696 00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: own species name because it's it's this, it's this lineage 697 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: of animal cells that has its own genome UM, and 698 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: has its own way of getting around in the world. 699 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: It's it's doing just fine. UM. So surely it deserves 700 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: the name UM. And then it turns out that in 701 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: a few other cases scientists have found another species, so 702 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: Tasmanian devils in Tasmania, they get a facial tumor because 703 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: they bite each other when they're fighting, and they spread 704 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: this cancer to each other. UM. And this this cancer 705 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: has actually arisen a couple of times in Tasmania just 706 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: in recent decades, so it isn't something that only happened 707 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,800 Speaker 1: once a long time ago. And what's most mind blowing 708 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: is that some scientists stumbles across this yet again, just 709 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: in the past few years uh in clams, in shellfish UH, 710 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: and have discovered that there there's contagious cancer in the ocean. UM. 711 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: So you're swimming. As you're swimming in the ocean, you're 712 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: swimming around cancer cells that are moving from host to host. 713 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: An infectious cancer as its own type of organism. What 714 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: kingdom of life would that be? Would it be an animal? I? Yes, 715 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: it would be an animal simply because it's descended from animals. Yeah, 716 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,320 Speaker 1: I mean I would say they would have to be given, 717 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, a place in the animal kingdom. But and 718 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you should just still call it like 719 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: a species of you know, maybe the dog cancer should 720 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: be a species of dog. Maybe you know, cana is 721 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,879 Speaker 1: cancer or something. I don't know. I don't know, um, 722 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: but you know it's and you know, when when and 723 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 1: when you talk about or what makes up an animal, 724 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, like, uh, what makes up up us? You know, 725 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: like we think of cancer cells as being part of ourselves. 726 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: They they originate from our own selves. But um, imagine 727 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: if your body was actually made up of your own 728 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,760 Speaker 1: cells and then cells that came from someone ten thousand 729 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: years ago, that that would be weird. Yeah, alright, time 730 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,760 Speaker 1: for a quick break. Then we will be right back 731 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 1: for more of our versation with Carl zimmer Than. All right, 732 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: we're back now. We can't talk about the future of 733 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: heredity without touching on Crisper. How is this technology affecting 734 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: the future of human redity? Well, you know, we're going 735 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: to have to wait and see exactly what happens, but 736 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: certainly the potential is profound um. Crisper is just a 737 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: few years old, and it's this is this technology essentially 738 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: to zero in on any particular bit of DNA, cut 739 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: it out, and if you want, insert a different little 740 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: stretch of DNA in there. So um, this raises the 741 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: possibility of being able to cure hereditary diseases by rewriting uh, 742 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: the DNA in cells, you know, to repair a faulty gene. 743 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: But what some scientists have been already exploring is, well, 744 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: what if you take human embryonic cells. What if you 745 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: take you know, human embryos are just a tiny little 746 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: cluster just you know, seven or eight cells, and you 747 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: use Crisper to rewrite their DNA. UM, let's say you 748 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: fix a hereditary disease in just this handful of just 749 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: as few cells. Well that if if you if that 750 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: if a person were to develop from those cells, they 751 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 1: they would have Crisper altered genes throughout their whole body, 752 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: and if they were to have children, they would pass 753 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: on those Crisper altered genes as well. And so you 754 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: know that that that these experiments have already begun on 755 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: on these tiny little human embryos, and so really, you 756 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: know what what needs to happen now is for us 757 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: to have a really a kind of global conversation about 758 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: whether we want to use this or not, whether it's safe, 759 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,879 Speaker 1: whether it's ethical. UM, how do we feel about who 760 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: should have access to this? UM? Do we have the 761 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: right to alter future generations? Um? And you know we 762 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: and maybe we'll feel comfortable with, say, you know, eradicating 763 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: Huntings disease. But what if somebody says, well, yeah, but 764 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: I want I'm using IVF and I want to just 765 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 1: give my kids, Uh, this mutation that we know reduces 766 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,760 Speaker 1: your odds of getting Alzheimer's? Could I do that as well? 767 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,280 Speaker 1: And then you know what if you add on other things? 768 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,319 Speaker 1: What if you add on things that are not don't 769 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 1: have to do with immediately treating some ready to disorder, 770 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: but you know, change a trait, change, hair color, change, height, change, 771 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: all these things are are people are going to be 772 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: comfortable with that? UM? And this all you know this 773 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 1: science fiction writers have had a monopoly on this conversation 774 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: until now, but I think that everybody else needs to 775 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: be talking about it too. Now. As far as crisper 776 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: altered genes go, given like a near future scenario, would 777 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,879 Speaker 1: they be detectable. What would somebody be able to say 778 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,839 Speaker 1: to to look at individual's genome and say, oh, well 779 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 1: you've had there's gene altering evidence here. Or would a 780 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: future civilization be able to look back at our genetic 781 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: information and say, oh, well look here in this particular 782 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: family line, we see evidence of of of of crisper alteration. 783 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. Um, I think you would. I 784 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:34,240 Speaker 1: think that it would be possible if the people doing 785 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: the crisper changing um left behind, you know, a mark 786 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,479 Speaker 1: of what they were doing, you know, a little water mark. 787 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,320 Speaker 1: Think of it that way. You know, some distinctive sequence 788 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,640 Speaker 1: of non coding DNA nearby that basically says hello, you know, 789 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: this is this, this crisper alteration has brought to you 790 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: courtesy of such and such hospital. You know, Um, you 791 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: could totally code a message in DNA people. You know, 792 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: people have enquoted entire books in DNA. Now, so you 793 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:10,280 Speaker 1: could do that. Um, But if you if somebody decided 794 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: not to leave a water mark, then no, Actually, I 795 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: think it might be very difficult to UM to say, oh, well, 796 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 1: this person descends from a crispered ancestor knowing knowing tech 797 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: companies I know we'd end up with like thirty page 798 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: ELA agreements in there. Sure, absolutely, But you know the 799 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 1: problem is that you know that over the generations they 800 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 1: would get that agreement would mutate, and uh, you know, 801 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: the legal language would would change into things that the 802 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,640 Speaker 1: lawyers didn't have in mind. So, given the great power 803 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,760 Speaker 1: that Crisper has to to allow us to alter our genes, 804 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,759 Speaker 1: what what do you think are the best ideas you've 805 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: heard about how to guide it in a way that's 806 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 1: that's fair, that's going to have good outcomes and not 807 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: bad it. Uh, you know, the people have access to 808 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: in in equitable ways. I mean, have you encountered anybody 809 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: who has done the best what you would consider the 810 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 1: best thinking so far on the ethics of gene alteration? 811 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,840 Speaker 1: You know, I I in the United States, the government 812 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:21,920 Speaker 1: is really just being very uh emphatic and not wanting 813 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,880 Speaker 1: to really talk about these issues at all. So uh, 814 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: you know, not only is it not allowed to do 815 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: germ line modification, but you can't do any research that 816 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:37,400 Speaker 1: might lead to that, and so um, we're not really 817 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: having a meaningful conversation in the United States yet, I think, um, 818 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,439 Speaker 1: and uh, Unfortunately, what that means is that people are 819 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,439 Speaker 1: going to want to go to other countries where there 820 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: is no particular regulation one or the other and do 821 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: that in you know, in um, in you know clinic 822 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: sort of on that are hidden from view. UM. And 823 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: in my book I talk about one case where actually 824 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,080 Speaker 1: this has already happened. UM. A couple went to Mexico 825 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: and an American doctor joined them there to uh to 826 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:20,000 Speaker 1: basically replace the mitochondria in this woman's eggs with with healthy, 827 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 1: healthy ones. UM. So you know there are some genetically 828 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 1: modified people alive today. UM. There there are a few, UM, 829 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: but they're they're already here. UM. But they I think 830 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: that it's a better, better way to deal with this 831 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: is what England is doing. So in England this treatment 832 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: called mitochondrial replacement therapy. UM. There was there was a 833 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 1: lot of research that was done on it, UM and 834 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 1: using animals, using using you know eggs, human eggs and 835 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: so on and then UM and then Parliament actually had 836 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,840 Speaker 1: a big full debate about it and you know, the 837 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: advantages and the possible risks and the ethics and so on, 838 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: and then they decided, well we're going to allow this 839 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: to happen, but it's going to happen under these rules. 840 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: So you know, you can't just like walk into any 841 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 1: doctor's office and get this therapy like that. You know, 842 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna really make really uh take We're gonna take 843 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: real care to make sure that this has done safely 844 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,719 Speaker 1: and responsibly and under the right circumstances. And so now 845 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,800 Speaker 1: there is a university that has actually you know, gotten 846 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,880 Speaker 1: permission to basically open their doors for business. UM. And 847 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: I think that's the way to go UM, because then 848 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 1: you can you can have these discussions and say, like, 849 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:48,320 Speaker 1: you know what, as a society, we don't want uh 850 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,640 Speaker 1: people to be trying to make their kids more intelligent 851 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,280 Speaker 1: by altering their genes. We think that's a that's bad 852 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 1: for individuals and bad for society. We're not going to 853 00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,879 Speaker 1: allow it. UM, And that will actually happen rather than 854 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,360 Speaker 1: sending people to other countries to have you know, possibly 855 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 1: dangerous treatments. UM. That's the way I think UH things 856 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,839 Speaker 1: should go. UM. And you can see an example of 857 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,480 Speaker 1: it in England, And it would be great if if 858 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,279 Speaker 1: the United States could follow suit. You know, on this 859 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,320 Speaker 1: show a lot we talked about how often like science 860 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,319 Speaker 1: fiction is sort of the playground for people working out 861 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,400 Speaker 1: these problems before they're dealt with in the real world. 862 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,359 Speaker 1: Have you encountered any any science fiction or fiction in 863 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,720 Speaker 1: general that you thought did a good job of dealing 864 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,879 Speaker 1: with you know, raised the interesting questions, had intelligent things 865 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 1: to say about the implications of genetic engineering and humans. 866 00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think that there's a long tradition of 867 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: genetic engineering in science fiction. Um and uh and even 868 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,279 Speaker 1: before people really knew what genetic engineering was. You know, 869 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,239 Speaker 1: Brave New World is a fascinating book even now. I mean, 870 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: and it's amazing think when you think how um, how 871 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:10,239 Speaker 1: much uh uh was just only discovered after the publication 872 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,759 Speaker 1: of the book. Um and I it's I find that 873 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: one quite quite prophetic. I think the problem with science 874 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,880 Speaker 1: fiction comes when people think that anything can happen. That 875 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:29,400 Speaker 1: when people think that biology allows anything you can imagine 876 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,600 Speaker 1: to be a possibility. Um and the fact is that 877 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,320 Speaker 1: biology doesn't work that way. And so you know, when 878 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: when we're actually talking, you know, today about well, what 879 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:48,799 Speaker 1: are the real possibilities that Crisper could create, I think 880 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: we need to sort of I think we need to 881 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,719 Speaker 1: make sure that we're not um, just letting our fantasies 882 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,439 Speaker 1: run wild. You know, some people have said like, oh, well, 883 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,240 Speaker 1: you'll just be able to um Cristoper your kid and 884 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:05,320 Speaker 1: turn them into a genius. Um, and that it's not 885 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,920 Speaker 1: what science indicates. I mean, you know, intelligence is this 886 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,480 Speaker 1: incredibly complex phenomenon that is, you know, influenced by genes, 887 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:19,120 Speaker 1: it's influenced by the environment. It's partly a social thing, 888 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of like you know, intelligence really 889 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: sort of gaining its meaning in you know, in a society. UM. 890 00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: And you can't just zoom in on a on a 891 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,080 Speaker 1: few genes and make a tweak here and there and 892 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: say ah ha, like now my child is going to 893 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, get into the very best colleges. It just 894 00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 1: does not work that way. Um. And and I think 895 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:47,040 Speaker 1: that if people just go ahead with it anyway, UM, 896 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,600 Speaker 1: those children are going to be born, um, not just 897 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: with these odd little changes to their genes, but with 898 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,960 Speaker 1: a whole huge set of expectations um from their parents. 899 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,279 Speaker 1: You know, I spent a hundred thousand dollar. There's a 900 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: change your genes to make you a genius? And why 901 00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,799 Speaker 1: are you getting these grades and math? What's what's wrong 902 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,399 Speaker 1: with you? I just see a That's where I see 903 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,719 Speaker 1: the real dystopia emerging is just expecting heredity to do 904 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,360 Speaker 1: much more than it can possibly do, uh to to 905 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,960 Speaker 1: alter ourselves. That's really interesting and it raises another question 906 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 1: that definitely comes up in the book, which is that 907 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,160 Speaker 1: even when we're talking about traits that are to some 908 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,560 Speaker 1: large extent heritable, what are some of the reasons that 909 00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,440 Speaker 1: it can create misunderstandings for us to talk about there 910 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 1: being quote a gene for a certain trait. Yeah, we 911 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,280 Speaker 1: really have come to look at genes as being all 912 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: powerful and and that is a real mistake and it's 913 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,440 Speaker 1: but it's hard to really, um get your head around 914 00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:56,960 Speaker 1: the paradox of heredity in this regard um. And one 915 00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 1: of the examples I like to talk about is height. 916 00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 1: You know how it seems like it's simple, like it's 917 00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: just just a number that you get off a tape measure, 918 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,400 Speaker 1: Like how hard could that be to understand? But you know, 919 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:13,280 Speaker 1: in in fact, um, you know, heredity is this very 920 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,720 Speaker 1: weird mix of genes in the environment. Um, you know 921 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,080 Speaker 1: gene so height is is very what scientists say are 922 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,320 Speaker 1: very heritable, meaning that if you look at the variation 923 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:30,040 Speaker 1: among people in a particular population, why are they tall? 924 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,480 Speaker 1: Why they're short. Uh. You can explain a lot of 925 00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,240 Speaker 1: that because of the genes that they inherited from their parents. 926 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,600 Speaker 1: So tall parents tend to have tall children. Short parents 927 00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,200 Speaker 1: tend to have short children. And it's so that means 928 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,880 Speaker 1: it's very heritable. UM. But that does not mean that, 929 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, height is somehow um locked in and fixed that. 930 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,440 Speaker 1: It does not mean that you can actually, you know, 931 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,439 Speaker 1: finally predict um the you know, how tall it could 932 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 1: will be just based on their gene. In fact, we 933 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: didn't even know about any of these genes until the 934 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:08,000 Speaker 1: past decade or so. Uh. And now scientists are discovering 935 00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,400 Speaker 1: literally thousands of genes that influence height, each one in 936 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,120 Speaker 1: a tiny little bit. You know, I got my genome 937 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 1: sequence and discovered you know that I had very interested 938 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,640 Speaker 1: to find that at one particular gene was the first 939 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:25,520 Speaker 1: gene that was ever linked to height in population. And 940 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,680 Speaker 1: I'm I'm about an eighth of an inch taller than 941 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,800 Speaker 1: it would be otherwise because of the variant that I have. 942 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:36,280 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's almost invisible. UM. But you know, 943 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,880 Speaker 1: the genetic influence just is the sum of all of 944 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 1: these different variants. Um. And yet on top of all 945 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,160 Speaker 1: of that. UM. You know, you can have, you know, 946 00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,400 Speaker 1: all the tall genes you want, but if you're not 947 00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,960 Speaker 1: getting a good diet when you're a kid, and if 948 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,520 Speaker 1: you're facing dysentery on a regular basis, you're just not 949 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,600 Speaker 1: going to grow that tall because your body is going 950 00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:03,480 Speaker 1: to be basically channeling all those resources to fighting disease 951 01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:08,280 Speaker 1: and to you know, fight defend against starvation. And you know, 952 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,760 Speaker 1: on top of that, even more amazing to me is 953 01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,520 Speaker 1: that in the whole world has actually gotten several inches 954 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:17,480 Speaker 1: taller over the past century because life overall is better. 955 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,480 Speaker 1: You know, there's more people have a better nutrition, better medicine. 956 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,400 Speaker 1: UM education probably plays a role in this. Uh. And 957 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 1: so it's not that people inherited you know, quote unquote 958 01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:34,880 Speaker 1: tall genes, it's that they inherited a world that favors 959 01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,200 Speaker 1: greater height. So I've got one last question that might 960 01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,800 Speaker 1: be kind of weird, but we'll see what you think 961 01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,840 Speaker 1: of it. I often hear hear people talking about UM 962 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,640 Speaker 1: their relationship with their own genome, UM with their own 963 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:53,560 Speaker 1: genes in two basic ways. One is self identification. You know, 964 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,640 Speaker 1: it's like my genes are why I am like X. 965 01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,200 Speaker 1: And so there there's a sort of I identify with 966 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,640 Speaker 1: my genes and lady. And then there's a kind of 967 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,680 Speaker 1: antagonistic kind of thing people think about with their genes, 968 01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:10,120 Speaker 1: like the genes are this other disembodied force that made 969 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,080 Speaker 1: them and it's almost like another person that they have 970 01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: to negotiate with in some way. To what extent do you, 971 01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,280 Speaker 1: given all of the research you've done and after having 972 01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,479 Speaker 1: written this book, to what extent do you feel you 973 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,800 Speaker 1: are your genes or that your genes are this separate 974 01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,840 Speaker 1: other force from you as a person. That's interesting. I yeah, 975 01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,200 Speaker 1: I've heard that kind of language too, you know. And 976 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,520 Speaker 1: people will get their DNA sequenced and they'll discover they 977 01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,640 Speaker 1: have a particular variant linked to some trade and say, ah, 978 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,400 Speaker 1: well that's why I do X Y Z or or 979 01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,760 Speaker 1: they'll discover they have ancestry from a particular place and say, ah, well, 980 01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,960 Speaker 1: that's why that's why I like to tell stories, or 981 01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,520 Speaker 1: that's why I like to run, or what have you. 982 01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,160 Speaker 1: Um And you know, you see ads on TV for 983 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,960 Speaker 1: these companies like ancestry dot Com that play on that 984 01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:05,840 Speaker 1: exact attitude towards our genes that somehow, you know, what 985 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,560 Speaker 1: we do in our lives is encapsulated in these genes 986 01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,120 Speaker 1: that we inherit from our ancestors. Um. And then yeah, 987 01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,800 Speaker 1: then there are people who just want to fight against it, um, 988 01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, and part of that sometimes feels like, you know, 989 01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:19,760 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of a displaced fight they're having with 990 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,560 Speaker 1: their parents, you know, Like I'm not gonna be like 991 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:24,880 Speaker 1: you were, you know, and I don't care if I 992 01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,600 Speaker 1: inherited genes from you. I'm going to be my own person, um, 993 01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,720 Speaker 1: I would say, in my own experience. UM. You know, 994 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,840 Speaker 1: I got my genome sequence and part of the research 995 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,640 Speaker 1: for this book, and I really looked at it very deeply. 996 01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,520 Speaker 1: It's been a fascinating experience. But I can't find anything 997 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:47,600 Speaker 1: in there that is quote unquote me. I think that 998 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,840 Speaker 1: it's just not there, you know. I I was able 999 01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,440 Speaker 1: to look at the genes that I inherited from neandertals, 1000 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of years ago, and you know, 1001 01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,400 Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But then I say to these scientists, Okay, 1002 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,520 Speaker 1: you've given me this catalog, got the indertal genes, let's 1003 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,440 Speaker 1: talk about them, Like, what what does it mean that 1004 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,480 Speaker 1: I inherit this particult? Like, here's one gene tell me 1005 01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,120 Speaker 1: about it and the sciences to be like, well, it 1006 01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:13,439 Speaker 1: looks like no one actually knows what this gene does 1007 01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,400 Speaker 1: at all, you know, and then that you're just sort 1008 01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,560 Speaker 1: of left there. But with the state of the science, 1009 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I found that I have in the 1010 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:25,120 Speaker 1: andertal gene that UM is linked to an increased risk 1011 01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,520 Speaker 1: of nose bleeds. I don't know. I don't know what 1012 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: to do with that, you know, And I it also 1013 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,160 Speaker 1: makes me wonder why the inertals might have nosebleeds. But 1014 01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:38,120 Speaker 1: that's a whole separate issue. But you know, I I 1015 01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,520 Speaker 1: I don't I. I can't say that anything I've done 1016 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,440 Speaker 1: looking at my own d d n A has given 1017 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,640 Speaker 1: me some deep insight about my inner self as a person, 1018 01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, as it's much more relevant to me to 1019 01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,960 Speaker 1: think about, you know, how my parents raised me and 1020 01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,520 Speaker 1: what my experiences were as a kid, and what it 1021 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,400 Speaker 1: has been lie you know, being married and and and 1022 01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,560 Speaker 1: being a father, like, the lived experience matters much more 1023 01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:10,560 Speaker 1: to me than UM than the details of the genome 1024 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:15,160 Speaker 1: I inherited from my parents. UM. And that's that's kind 1025 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:19,120 Speaker 1: of where where it stands for me now, all right, Yeah, well, 1026 01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 1: well thank you so much, Carl. It's been a real 1027 01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,960 Speaker 1: pleasure talking to you today and we appreciate you taking 1028 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,480 Speaker 1: time to speak with us. My pleasure, my pleasure. I 1029 01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,919 Speaker 1: really enjoyed the conversation and I'm glad you enjoyed the book. 1030 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,959 Speaker 1: So there you have it. Thanks once again to Carl 1031 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,360 Speaker 1: Zimmer for coming on the show and having this wonderful 1032 01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,320 Speaker 1: chat with us about his new book, She Has Her 1033 01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,880 Speaker 1: Mother's Laugh, The Powers, Perversions and Potential of Heredity Again. 1034 01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,520 Speaker 1: That's available in hardback, as a digital and as an 1035 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,760 Speaker 1: audio book right now, and you can check out Carl's 1036 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,600 Speaker 1: website Carl Zimmer dot com for even more about him 1037 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 1: and his projects. That's right, go to that website, and hey, 1038 01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 1: be sure to check out our website as well. It's 1039 01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:01,640 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 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