1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy V. Wilson, and today 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: we have an interview. It is an interview that I 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: was actually trying to get for the Animation podcast Drawn 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: that I did earlier this year, but the timing just 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: did not work out. But thankfully, uh, this person that 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: we're talking to is also a perfect guest for this show. 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: So the person that Holly has interviewed is Mindy Johnson, 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: and she is a creator. She is an author, historian, filmmaker, 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: and musician. And she came out into my radar when 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: a friend of mine told me about a talk that 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: Mindy gave that she had attended about her recent book, 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: which is called inc and Paint The Women of Walt 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: Disney's Animation. The book covers ground that hasn't really been 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: examined before now, and that's what life was like for 17 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: women at the studio through the years, and how so 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: so many women were innovating the medium of animation in 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: the United States, but they didn't become household names the 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: way their male counterparts did. And this interview was so 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: difficult to prep for because this book is really substantial 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: and there are so many really fantastic bits of information, 23 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask Mindy about every single one 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: of them. But even with a rather brutally paired down list, 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: she and I still talked for over an hour and 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: a half. So we are actually going to run this 27 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: interview over two episodes. This is also territory I think 28 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: our listeners have asked about before. We've had requests for 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: some kind of episode about women in animation or or 30 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: women in the world of Disney, So this is a 31 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: great fit. Yeah, And just as it heads up, if 32 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: you think this is just a Disney episode, who are 33 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: you in for a surprise? Because really it has just 34 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: a lot to do about women in the labor market 35 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: and how their rights and global things going on at 36 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: the same time all interacted with one another. So we'll 37 00:01:53,200 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: hop right into it. So it is such a massive book. 38 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,279 Speaker 1: It is so dense with information, and it really brings 39 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: to light a lot of subject matter that has never 40 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: really been explored before to the best of my knowledge, 41 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: in book form. So I'm wondering what that research process 42 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: was like for you. Well, it involved everything from a 43 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: long late nights and digging into people's closets and going 44 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: on digging under beds and digging through bankers boxes of 45 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: material and um, scrap books and love letters and uh, 46 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: just a whole raft of things. A lot of phone calling, 47 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: a lot of digging literally and figuratively into these women 48 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: and their families and UM. When I first went into 49 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: the main studio archives, it was a little difficult, and 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: that um they had select material on various films, and 51 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: we could go through Walt and Rois earliest ledgers because 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: initially focusing on the INCN paint teams, that it was 53 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: very materials based. But I when I asked for any 54 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: information they had on the women and the roles that 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: they performed, presumably and incompaint, I was handed a folder 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: that had five pieces of paper in it. It was 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: a real testament that history is preserved, written about, archived, 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: and documented from a male perspective, and we don't think 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: about women and their participation roles. And when you step 60 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: back from that and realized that literally two sides have 61 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: moved civilization forward, both men and women. And yet when 62 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: we look back at our collective past, we're only seeing 63 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: half the picture. We only know half of that story, 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: and that there were women from the very begin in 65 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: any historical context, but we just have never documented that. 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: So in this instance, that's one of the reasons why 67 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: this book was so large. And I got about eight 68 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: months into my research when I initially pitched the idea 69 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: to my editor. We thought it. We both thought it 70 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: would be a charming little volume because we the only 71 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: narrative we had been told with women and their roles 72 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: in animation was essentially the log line of pretty girls 73 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: who trace in color, and we thought it would be 74 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: this charming book about teacakes and you know, the dating 75 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: and social lives and activities that went on, and that 76 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: would be it. And I got about eight months into 77 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: it and said called her and said, I, this is massive. 78 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: It's epic. These women were at the forefront of so much. 79 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: And I don't it's bigger than what we thought. And 80 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how it ends. And I had kind 81 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: of get my head. It just was a real weighted 82 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: feeling of oh my gosh, this is this is massive. 83 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: Um and I kept digging. She just said, Okay, deep breath, 84 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: keep going. We will enlarge the trim size and the 85 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: page counts keep going. So it was a very termed 86 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: and the fortuitous thing, and I was so grateful that 87 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: she saw what this was about. And it really has 88 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: been shifting people's mindset, shifting the paradigms that we've labored 89 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: under for centuries, and people are realizing for the century 90 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: of animation. But even beyond that that, you know, we've 91 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: we've overlooked, we've looked past, we've they've been unseen and 92 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: invisible for too long, and it's time for that to change. 93 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: And it is sort of fascinating to me that it is. 94 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: This quest essentially started with five pieces of paper and 95 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: ended up this really massive book. But this book covers 96 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: so much ground. If someone is going to it thinking 97 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: they are only getting the story of women in animation, 98 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: they will be surprised because it covers the history of 99 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: film and animation. It puts all of those works on 100 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: a much bigger timeline of things that were happening in 101 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: the world that had nothing to do with any sort 102 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: of entertainment. And I'm wondering why you wanted to put 103 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: everything in that sort of depth of context. Well, isn't 104 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: it nice to have your expectations succeeded? Yes? And it 105 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: was important, um for me to convey. It was important 106 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: to understand the context, the time periods. When you get 107 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: to something like a newspaper article that comes up in 108 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: the n thirties where Walt Disney is quoted saying, I 109 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: don't know why, but for some reason, women don't have 110 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: the power. Well, in the early animation was pratt palls 111 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: and physical comedy and flapstick and really stemming out of vaudeville, 112 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of physical movement and motion 113 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: and the perceptions of what where women were and what 114 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: women could do. If they're at a not the best 115 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: point today, imagine how they were in the nineteen thirties. 116 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: So it was important for me to convey to the 117 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: reader to place them into a drive to experience of 118 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: history history rather than a rear view mirror. Look at 119 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: where we where women have been, um, simply because women 120 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: have always been there. So it was important to understand, 121 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: and for me, my question was, all, right, well, when 122 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: did women move into the workplace? I found that particularly 123 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: fascinating and it was important to sort of establish this 124 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: overarching through line of when we think about it at 125 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: the time. Again, to well Disney as an example, when 126 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: he was in Kansas City working on his earliest establishing 127 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: his lapograms and other things. Women had only had the 128 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: right to vote for maybe a year or so. In 129 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: women were granted full abilities with the nineteen Amendment to vote. 130 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: So when you placed it in that context, oh yeah, 131 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: it suddenly is a pretty remarkable arc to realize. And 132 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: when you realize that, as we get to the nineteen fifties, 133 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: you have one of the leading artists at Disney Studios 134 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: a single mother. She was widowed, she had two children, 135 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: she was the sole breadwinner. She had to get one 136 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: of her fellow animators to go with her to the 137 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: bank to co sign a loan so she could get 138 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: a car. That was the reality for women. Women were 139 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: not able to have their own bank accounts or own 140 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: credit cards, and so we're in the late seventies and 141 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: then women could get credit cards in their needs. So 142 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: when you understand the civil rights movement, the war, how 143 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: the war impacted things, the civil rights movements, the feminist 144 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: movements of the seventies, and where we're still working through that, 145 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: it then starts to make sense why we're at the 146 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: place we're at today for women because we've we've never 147 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: tracked that history, um, And for younger readers especially, it 148 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: seems silly, but it's important that they understand where we've 149 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: come from and where we still have to get to 150 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: shift the balance and even things out with that, women 151 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: are still at a very deplorable percentage within the entertainment 152 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: industry today, and yet when you go back to the 153 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: very beginning, they were at a sent with Alski Bouce, 154 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: Lois Whoeber, Dorothy Arsner, Mary Pickford, Mary Francis Anita Loose, 155 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: many of the early women of silent film, with women 156 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: who established the narrative storytelling tenants that we still use today, 157 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: with women who established visual referencing as filmmakers. Was a 158 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: very it was the wild West, but women were right there, 159 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: and yet for some reason, they're written out of the 160 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: history books. So this is a way to balance that. 161 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: I love all of that context because it makes the 162 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: story seem a little less quaint and a little more weighty, 163 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: which I really like about it. Um. And one of 164 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: the other things that I really enjoyed is there is 165 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: a section at the beginning of your book where you 166 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: feature a bunch of different women that all influenced Walt 167 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: Disney's life in various ways, and there are some really 168 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: good stories there. Um, do you have a favorite among 169 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: those early influencers. Well, I was intrigued and I certainly 170 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: knew about his grandmother and how she am. Whose grandmother 171 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: hasn't had influence for those of us who have been 172 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: blessed with grandmothers. Um, she really instilled this love of 173 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: story and narrative and imagination. And for me, it certainly 174 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: has been early relatives and educators, And when I think 175 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: back on the influences that they've had on me as 176 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: a writer and filmmaker and storyteller and educator, they really 177 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: there have been people in the early stages of my 178 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: life and career, and I think as hopefully listeners are 179 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: thinking back to people who help that influence on them, 180 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: and it's an important part of what builds the tapestry 181 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: of who we are and what we bring forward in 182 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: our own experiences. So for me, it was really fascinating 183 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: to go back and get an understanding of where these 184 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: seeds were planted in people like Walt Disney and their 185 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: impact on how they shaped who they were as a 186 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: person and then ultimately their career and their impact on 187 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: our lives. And when you get to like Daisy Beck 188 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: his his teacher. I love the fact that she made 189 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: education to get to That's an important part of what 190 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: I utilize when i'm teaching, rather than I have to. 191 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: So when I think back to the influences that certain 192 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: educators and relatives and friends and colleagues have had on 193 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: my life and career, and I'm sure listeners can do 194 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: the same. There were certain people who stood out and 195 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: that we hold in a special place, and I found 196 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: it fascinating, like Elita Reynolds that when Walt was establishing 197 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: his very tiny laugh Agram studio, you know, it was 198 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: a strong statement that there was a woman in there 199 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: as well, and that it wasn't this all male world. 200 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: And when I in looking at this industry through a 201 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: woman's lens, looking for the women, they were there, rather 202 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: than this sort of unconscious bias where we just assume 203 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: women were not there, We just don't even look for that. 204 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: So if that's what's been challenging, is to get people 205 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: to start of wake up and realize that the very 206 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: fact that procreation commands that we have women on throughout 207 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: our society. Right, of course, women are there. The numbers 208 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: may not be as strong, but it's important that we 209 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: look for them. So I've been doing a lot of 210 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: speaking to UM researchers and students studying history and research 211 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: to actively search, actively look for the women in the 212 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: room because they were there in some capacity and contributing 213 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: in some manner. The other thing, too, is that we 214 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: don't They said, there's this sort of natural default where 215 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: we we just automatically a default to the mail. And 216 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: I think by shifting this, being more conscious about it 217 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: and actively speaking out um. It's a little more challenging 218 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: to find women because of name changes and are multiple marriages, 219 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: or oftentimes they may go by a nickname more so 220 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: than men. Um. It does make it a little more challenging, 221 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: but not impossible. I really like that Mindy mentioned that 222 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: women can be harder to track than men in the 223 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: historical record, even in the last century, just because of 224 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: things like marriages and name changes that maybe aren't always 225 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: super well documented, but then they are later a little 226 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: bit harder to find. Coming up, this interview turns to 227 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: talk of studio romances, and first we're going to have 228 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. One of the things that you 229 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: talk about in your book, which seems like it would 230 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: naturally happen regardless, is that there was a rather common 231 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: event of studio romances cropping up. I imagine when you 232 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: have a huge department of women that is disproportionately huge 233 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: for probably compared to other industries or companies, um, working 234 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: alongside a large group of men, like, eventually there are 235 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: lots of romances that pop up. Will you talk about 236 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: that a little bit and sort of the social aspect 237 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: of it, but also the more famous romance that came 238 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: out of it. Sure, well, you know, again, these these 239 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: basically stories that had been told that head services, the 240 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: ongoing notion that the animation department was the monastery and 241 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: the incompanient building was the nunnery, or they had different 242 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: little pet names. But in the forties fifties, UM, you 243 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: would have essentially kind of dating pools that was sort 244 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: of the match dot com in a way because you 245 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: had this pool of women. But again placing them into context, 246 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: this is a pretty unique area because other areas of industry, 247 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: women were relegated to separate areas, separate pools. In some instances, 248 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: various office buildings had separate elevators women's elevators and men's elevators. 249 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: As women are moving into industry, and that's a whole 250 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: other subject and a whole lot podcast. But as women 251 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: are moving into industry, it presented new challenges for the 252 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: very male dominated, entrenched day to day factories and other 253 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: instances where where women were beginning to move into and 254 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: as the numbers grew, circumstances did change. But for the 255 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: most part, it was always challenging at Disney, in within 256 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: animation at Disney and at other studios. This isn't just 257 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: strictly for Disney, but the other studios as well. Here 258 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: you do have men and women in separate divisions and apartments. 259 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: Women were there in secretarial roles uh and making advancements 260 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: into editorial and and in other areas, but working side 261 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: by side. Being the paint teams always seem to be 262 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: sort of the dating pool, and you know, there were 263 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: always activities of oh hey, he's got a friend, and 264 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: people were much more social activities, dances, things like that. 265 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: We're a big part of the scene as well. So 266 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: there was lots of activities, baseball games at the lunch hower, 267 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: lots of really great opportunities to mix and meet. In fact, 268 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: there would be uh Ward Kimball and his Tigagitty eight 269 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: band would play at the lunch ower in one of 270 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: the sound stages or right outside the animation building, and 271 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: so couples would pair off and dance, and it's a 272 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: great way to kind of get social and and spend 273 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: your lunch hour, um gab ring and seeing people. Because 274 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: the work they were doing was very focused, very sedentary, 275 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: seated at those desks, so wal't realized it was important 276 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: to have kind of a good release and a good 277 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: outlets to keep his artists balanced. There were lots of 278 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: romances of a number of the ladies who said, oh 279 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: I met you know, all three of my husband's or 280 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: it was a great source to find, you know, good 281 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: dating materials. Um. There were a lot of characters and 282 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: you know a lot of unsuccessful relationships too. But and 283 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: there were always showers and baby showers and um. So 284 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: it was an interesting progression where the first generation as 285 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: young women coming in were career women, which was trailblazing 286 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: at the time. Then as they were dating and meeting 287 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: and getting married as was the standard in the forties, 288 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: fifties and beyond, one too got married, women left the 289 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: job and and then it was expected to be raising 290 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: families and being at home. For some women that was 291 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: too much. It was a challenge. Uh. I have a 292 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: couple of ladies who have said, you know, when that 293 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: occurred my first marriage, I had my son, my child, 294 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: and I died. I was expected to stay at home 295 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: and bake cookies all day. And here I had trained 296 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: and I wanted my career in animation, and yet society 297 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: didn't permit that in a lot of ways, uh. Socially, politically, economically, 298 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: even into the nineteen seventy s. One of the women 299 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: who was the head of a major apartment, when she 300 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: and her husband were applying for their first home loan, 301 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: the bank would not look at her income. They wouldn't 302 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: count it. And here she had ran a department at 303 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: a major studio, but they wouldn't factor it into what 304 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: they qualified for because she was a woman. So with 305 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: regard to dating, yeah, even Waltz was kind of the 306 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: workplace was an interesting forum for him to find social companionship. 307 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: In fact, the very first employee of the Walt Disney 308 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: Company was a woman. Her name was Kathleen Dollard. She 309 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: was a friend of actually a friend of Lullian Disney, 310 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: oddly enough, but was Kathleen went to work for the 311 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: young Brothers, and it's verified to the family she felt 312 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: sorry for the young bachelor boys. She would often make 313 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: dinners and cook for them or bake things for them. 314 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: And it is verified through her family that a very 315 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: young Walt Disney proposed to her and she turned him 316 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: down because she didn't think he'd amount to anything. So 317 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: when things were getting busier and there was more work 318 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: to be done and a young Bullianum came into town, 319 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: Walt Disney knew Lilian's sister, Hazel. In fact, Hazel met 320 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: young Walt Disney when he was setting up his animation 321 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: stand in his uncle's garage. She was in the neighborhood there, 322 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: and so she was quite a vivacious force and apparently 323 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: the one person who could go toe to toe with 324 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: Walt Disney, and he paid attention. And she also made 325 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: a mean chicken dinner, so that made you know, his 326 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: young bachelor heart quite resounded with him. But Hazel was 327 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: quite a force, and she's the one who recommended her 328 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: friend Kathleen as their first employee. And when they were 329 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: expanding and Lilian made her way down from Idaho after 330 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: she graduated, who sort of lived with her sister and 331 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: have a begin life in the big city. See, Kathleen said, well, 332 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, we're looking to hire someone, but don't vamp 333 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: the boss. But I don't know, we don't have to 334 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: verify that. It sort of makes sense that she was like, 335 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, don't horn in on what I've thinking here. 336 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: But then she gave up on him and Waltz sort 337 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: of this cute little brunette who came in and started 338 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: as a jecretary and was doing the blackening nearly blackening 339 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: on the film. And he would take the girls home 340 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: after they were working long hours. He had a little 341 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 1: automobile and he would drive them home, and Lilian kind 342 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: of figured something was up when he would take Kathleen, 343 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: who lived further away home first, and then he'd circle 344 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: back so that Lilian would be dropped off. That very 345 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: and the rest of history on that one. Yeah, a 346 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: very different time. Oh, yes, you mentioned a few moments ago. 347 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: Altha Reynolds. Will you talk a little bit more about 348 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: maybe her and one or two of the other trailblazers 349 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: that you featured in your book. Oh, there are so 350 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: many great trailblazers. Alita was a unique She was an 351 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: artist in Kansas City and had helped out and worked 352 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: on Walt's early lapagrams. She also believe did a little 353 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: bit of work on The Alice's Wonderland, the very first 354 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: of the Alice comedy, but when the money was running 355 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: out on his little studio there that when bankrupt, she 356 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: had to go off and find other work. So Elita 357 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: is sort of a very early but unique person bit 358 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: of personnel in the earliest days of Walt's life and career, 359 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: and I felt it was important to include her because 360 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: it really does speak to the fact that he really 361 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: wasn't gender biased. It was about your talent and your ability, 362 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: and in fact, in many ways, very early on, he 363 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: was very progressive about getting women into places that you know, 364 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: many firsts, which the lifully there were many first within 365 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: the Disney studios. As we get into the late twenties, 366 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: Hazel School is brought in while the Oswaldy Lucky Rabbit 367 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: series is underway and things are expanding at the Little 368 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: Hyperion studio. Hazel was the first woman to head a 369 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: major department within animation overall in New York, where many 370 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: of the other studios had been running. Bray Studios and uh, 371 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: Pat Hollivan and Max Fleischer's studios, they had women working 372 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: there and i'm my research continues into finding possibly, but 373 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: the records are sadly incomplete because they were women. So 374 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: even then it's a testament to how invisible women really 375 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: were considered to be, even though they were doing the 376 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: bulk of the blackening or you know, celluloid aspects of 377 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: the animation production process. So women were there, but it 378 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: was always men overseeing. There are departments. We do have 379 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: a couple of other early exceptions, but with regard to Disney, 380 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: there were many, many first for women, again starting with 381 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: Hazel Sewell, who was the first woman to have a 382 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: major department within animation overall. She oversaw what was called 383 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: the blackeners at that time. She transitioned that role and 384 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: if you look to the earliest Alice comedies and Oswald's, 385 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: it's simple black literally outlining the pencil lines onto celluloid 386 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: with an ink pen and then blackening in so hence blackeners. 387 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: And that was actually the lowest end of the animation hierarchy, 388 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: and it was a training ground, so men were doing 389 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: this as well, but it was Hazel who said, you know, 390 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: women are better and it's a much more exacting thing 391 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: because you could see any little wobble or wiggly lines 392 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: showed up on the screen. So in an effort to 393 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: tighten the artistry and expand the artistry, Hazel Seel is 394 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: a real pioneer with that. She transitions that she's the 395 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: first to have an all female team of blackeners, and 396 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: she separates out the artists so we have tracers and 397 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: opaquers at that point. She then later advances that into 398 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: inking and painting, and that's when in the early mid thirties, 399 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: and that's when we really see the artistry of tapered 400 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: lines in and out in the full sweeping calligraphic strokes 401 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: of inking begin to to expand and enhance the animation process. 402 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: And we also have painting, and initially it's really sort 403 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: of making the uh celluloid opaque so that there's no 404 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: light leaks or anything in there. But it's women at 405 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: Disney Studios, starting with Mary Tebb, did some of the 406 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: earliest inking and painting on the Silly Symphonies, the skelet 407 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: and Dance, which is one of the best ever, isn't 408 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: that mind blank. There's a little fun fact of I 409 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: works of course, is known for doing the animation, but 410 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: he had a couple of other gentlemen helping him with that. 411 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: Mary tab one woman did all of the tracing and 412 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: opagueing at that point on that film. One woman did everything, 413 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: and certainly there are a lot of cycles on there, 414 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: but she oversaw and handled all of it. And you're 415 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: talking roughly anywhere from eight to thirteen thousand pieces of dialoid. 416 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: So that was a remarkable feat all in itself. Um, 417 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: as we move into color, the advent of color at 418 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: that point, with the advent of the Silly Symphony, the 419 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: women are working with black, white and about three or 420 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: four shades of gray paint. And this is paint that 421 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: you get from the local Hearts hardware store that you'd 422 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: paint your bedroom with, or a piece of furniture or something. 423 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: Um And so it was not really designed to add 424 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: here very effectively to celluloid and nitrates cellulated that. But 425 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: it was also if you wanted to achieve a certain colors. 426 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: So they purchased a couple of paint mills so they 427 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: could refine the paints to get them to blend and 428 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: work towards its hearing. But then as they began to 429 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: expand in Color two with flowers and trees. They were 430 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: working with eighty shades of paint, different colors literally pulled 431 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: off the shells of a hardware star and it was 432 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: incredibly problematic because some colors would not convey properly under 433 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: the light for the camera, so they really had to 434 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: feel their way on. You know, if we want to 435 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: achieve the look of fire, what shades are really going 436 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: to work for that? So they almost had to go 437 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: to mix a deep orange into a red in order 438 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: for that to not be washed out on the screen 439 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: on once the cells are under the camera lights. So 440 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: it's of very challenging and accomplished within an incredibly short 441 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: amount of time. And then went on to achieve the 442 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: first Academy Award garnered for animation, not so much for 443 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: the animation, but larger for the application of color, and 444 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: it was all women working in that area, catl Seol 445 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: and her team. By the way, if you have never 446 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: seen the Skeleton Dance, I highly recommend you google it. 447 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: It is an absolute delight and you will gain a 448 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: true appreciation for Mary TIB's work inking and painting. Throughout 449 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: that entire short We're going to pause for just a 450 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: minute to take a break for a word from one 451 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: of our sponsors that keeps the show going. I'm gonna 452 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: we will get back to this interview, and this one 453 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: we're actually going to pick right up with Mindy. It's 454 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: not me asking a question, it's just her talking in 455 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: this next segment as she continues to discuss the challenges 456 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: of working with paint that the women of the studio 457 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: had to overcome, and there is a great bit of 458 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: information coming up about how a woman chemist really figured 459 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: out how to move the entire industry forward. As they 460 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: continued and expanded with the silly symphonies and color again taints. 461 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: As they were getting different taint types that they were using, 462 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: they wouldn't blend properly, they'd lose suspension, they wouldn't dry 463 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: properly or evenly, and you'd get it under a couple 464 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: pound platinum in the camera room and suddenly you get 465 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: paint bladder and it would stop production. You have to 466 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 1: clean off the lens and the and the platinum and 467 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: start all over again and redo the hell. So it 468 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: was very problematic, and even trying to achieve proper color 469 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: palettes was getting problematic because each film, each short had 470 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: its own palette. They moved into their brand new, state 471 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: of the art income paint building in at the Hyperion Studios. 472 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: Walt had brought out a young are just from Chicago. 473 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: Her name was Mary Wiser, and she saw the problems 474 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: happening and she said, you know, we can do better. 475 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: And so she went to Hazel Stool and Walton Roy 476 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: and she began to study chemistry, got her degree in chemistry, 477 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: and then Walt Roy sent her off to different paint 478 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: vendors in New York and she established the first and 479 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: only paint lab in the world creating paint exclusively for 480 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: celluloid animation. Yeah, nothing like it in the world. And 481 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: by a time again, this is in roughly ninety six, 482 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: with about a year a year and a half, she 483 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: moved from a couple of hundred colors that were pulled 484 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: off of the shelf that they were trying to work 485 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: with creating their own paint labs. And the first year 486 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: alone that they were underway, she saved that studio six 487 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in white paint alone, but went on to 488 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: expand the palette, going from think about it, eighty colors 489 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: off the shelf for flowers and trees in nineteen thirty two, 490 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: two over fifteen hundred shades of color in seven for 491 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: snow light and the seven doors let that sink in 492 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: for her. And she had teams of women chemists. It 493 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: was all women, and she created her own manuals. There 494 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: was nothing like this in existence, nor has there ever been. 495 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: And she created her own teams and wrote typed out 496 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: the original manuals which still exists, and her experimentation log. 497 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: She also Mary Hops to patents. She created what was 498 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: called the blend technique, which harkens back to the early 499 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: dye techniques that were used in the silent days of 500 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: hand colorization on live action films and early photographs, hand 501 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: tinting photographs. Which is why, in telling this sweeping story, 502 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: I give you over a century or more of history 503 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: his story, because you have they kind of called back 504 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: to the earliest dye techniques in order to create this 505 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: blend to snow white cheeks. Now, there's a charming little 506 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: myth that the ladies use their own makeup to get 507 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: that look of rouge on her cheeks, But it's it's 508 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: a myth. It was actually Mary and her teams and 509 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: they developed this die technique. Mary and we have the 510 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: log reports, hundreds of experimentations, each one, each variant is 511 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: logged in. I mean, this was not Betty Crocker's kitchen, 512 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: this was Madam Carey's lab. And these women were redefining 513 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: how we see an experience animation and were a large 514 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: part of what brought and made Snow White and the 515 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: Seven Dwarves possible. You think about it, the story has 516 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: to change, and you have the first woman credited for 517 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: story in animation. Her name was Dorothy Anne Blank. She 518 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: came in a couple of years Proportional Light because Walt 519 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: was leading towards this. Dorothy did many of the basic 520 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: story breakdowns, early story development concepts, exploring different offshoots and 521 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: narrative ideas. She did full character breakdowns and descriptions and 522 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: established the basic templates of how we still approach feature 523 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: length animated storytelling today. She did this in the nineteen thirties, 524 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: and in fact, she was exploring story concepts for Peter 525 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: Pan and The Little Mermaid in the nineties films that 526 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, we're box office champs in the fifties and 527 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, So going back to the very beginning, 528 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: she was a real trailblazer with what we still do today, 529 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: and yet no, but he knows about I know. It's 530 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,959 Speaker 1: astonishing to think about really the level of advancement these 531 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: various women achieved, and they're not common everyday name, and 532 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: they probably should be exactly, they should definitely be right 533 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: up there with the Winds or Macy's and the Walt 534 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: disneyse and and others. Certainly there's a hierarchy to the work, 535 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: but when you look at the nine Old Men, oftentimes 536 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: when I'm speaking, I speak to tech extraordinary women and 537 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: beyond there were just as many men as we're aware of. 538 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: There were many incredible women trailblazing in editorial, in writing, 539 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: in backgrounds, in songwriting, in voice work, and in live racstion, 540 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: reference modeling, and virtually every aspect of animation. We still 541 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: have big ceilings to crack in directing, but that's changing. 542 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: This is where we're going to leave things for today's episode, 543 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: but there is so much more to come with Mindy 544 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: on our next episode. She is just a font of information, 545 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: and in the meantime, if you just cannot wait for 546 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: more Mandy, you can find her online at Mindy Johnson 547 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: Creative dot com. That Mindy is m I N d Y. 548 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: We'll also have that link in our show notes for 549 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: the episode today. Do you also have some listener mail? 550 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: I do, And since we are talking to someone about animation, 551 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: we're going to have the continuing discussion of something that 552 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,439 Speaker 1: came up in our winds Or McKay episode rare Bit, 553 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: the ongoing saga of rare Bit, which is the best 554 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: I mean a cheese saga. I'm totally in for uh. 555 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: This is from our listener Eric, and he wrote, rare 556 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: Bit is indeed a cheese sauce, but it can be 557 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: a lot more complex than what you put over macaroni. 558 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: One of our other listeners mentioned that that was how 559 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: it was explained to them when they were traveling. Shred 560 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: or Great cheddar into a pan with a bit of 561 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: butter to start melting. And then comes the tricky part, 562 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: the consistency. You're gonna add a liquid, often beer milk 563 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: if you avoid alcohol. Queen Victoria apparently used champagne and 564 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: also a bit of flour or a beaten egg to 565 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: bind the mixture and make it smooth. It can be 566 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: either a porable sauce or thick enough to be spooned 567 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: onto toast or crackers as a finger snack. I'm not 568 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 1: detailing the recipe because there are so many. The best 569 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: time to make rare bit as a standalone dish is 570 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: in the evening with friends. The best way to make 571 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: it is at the dining table in an old fashioned 572 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: chafing dish over a flame. The Stern now Chafing Dish Company, 573 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: which later became the Sterno Company, published this verse eating 574 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: at bedtime quote wise, old doctors used to say, do 575 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: you're eating in the day? Never eat a thing, they said, 576 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: just before you go to bed. Modern doctors differ quite 577 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: and say just the opposite. Food at bedtime, they explain, 578 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: soothe the nerves and calms the brain, so we cannot 579 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: go astray if we eat both night and day, and 580 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: a chafing dish at night brings to life a new delight. 581 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: I love that. I kind of want to get it 582 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: written out beautifully and maybe framed. Anything that encourages eating 583 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: cheese day and night I'm in for. And also an 584 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: opportunity to say opposite instead of opposite. I know, I 585 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: I skipped because it just sounded too weird in my head. Uh, 586 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: that is very cool. I did not know this detail 587 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: about Queen Victoria and Champagne in her rare bit. Yeah. Um. 588 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: It's also interesting because unlike a lot of cheese or 589 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: cream based sauces you would make today, it doesn't start 590 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: with a rue. It starts with the cheese yes, and 591 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: then the flower gets added later. I will also note 592 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: that there are a lot of different ways to make 593 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,479 Speaker 1: mac and cheese uh that are all like. They vary 594 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: across cultures and very across regions. And there are some 595 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: mac and cheese is that start with a RU and 596 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: others that do not start with the RU. And if 597 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 1: you ask people in different communities about their mac and cheese, 598 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: you may get vastly different answers. Oh, if you ask 599 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: different people in the same family at a reunion, you 600 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: might end up with fisticuff. Will feel strongly about mac 601 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: and cheese, which is because it is delicious. If anybody 602 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: else wants to share more of their rare bit information, 603 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: feel free to do so, because I am loving the 604 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: ongoing discussion. Eric, Thank you so much. This is very 605 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: cool and I love that you included this verse, which 606 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: I had never seen before. If you would like to 607 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: write to us, you can do so at History Podcast 608 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: at how staff works dot com. We are also across 609 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: the spectrum of social media as Missed in History and 610 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: Missed in History dot com is also our website where 611 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: you will find every episode that has ever existed, as 612 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: well as show notes on any of the ones that 613 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: Tracy and I have worked on UH and occasional other goodies. 614 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: And we encourage you to visit us at missed in 615 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: History dot com and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, 616 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more 617 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how staff 618 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: works dot com.