WEBVTT - The Science of Arguing 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:14.000 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.640 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:18.680 in this they could kick this one off. I want 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.479 everyone to think back on their most recent argument. I mean, like, 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.040 not like a little argument, but when something where it 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.560 actually got a little heated, even even if it was 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.600 just a heat on one side only. Yeah, and we're 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.640 not talking like, hey, did you you know you gotta 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.800 leave the seat up? You know kind of argument right 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.040 right that, you know, because that's sort of like a 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:43.000 wrote usual argument between couples, right yeah, and talking about 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.120 something that there was a topic and you felt passionate 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.880 about it, and you had a story to tell about 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.040 why you were passionate, and you were arguing with this story, 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.640 and and and I do have some serious questions about 0:00:55.640 --> 0:01:00.319 anyone who's still arguing, for um, keeping the seat up 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:02.880 like that just seems. I mean, I'm just gonna agree 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:04.920 that we can get an entire podcast on that, and 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:06.959 I'm sure we could find some science and some stats. 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.119 Well in in a way, this podcast is a podcast 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.320 about that, because that's actually a great argument to keep 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.360 in mind because I have met uh none, I guess 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.520 you can call them men who the people who like 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.480 to put the seat up? Who or make an impassioned 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.000 argument for why it's it's totally cool that they don't 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.360 put the seat down. You know, they'll be like, oh, well, 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.200 it just you know, it's one figures and the other 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.200 or I can't remember all the arguments they make four 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.280 uh continuing and doing this thing they do. But it 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.760 actually kind of kind of strikes at the core of 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.120 what arguing is all about, which we're going to discuss 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.880 in this podcast, the science of arguing. So first, let's 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:49.640 back up. Let's imagine the sort of classical idea of arguing. Okay, well, well, 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.120 I think of it more in terms of debate, really debate. 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:57.560 So imagine some old Greek men in their their their robes. 0:01:58.200 --> 0:01:59.440 Was it called a toga then, or is it just 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:01.880 kind of a robe. Let's go with toga. Let's go 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.840 with toga. Yeah, just create a more instantly visible picture 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.400 in the mind old man in toga, like a little 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.280 flabby chest kind of exposed there. So you're gonna lot 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.160 of details. Standing in the middle of this forum and 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:18.239 they're discussing the you know, the philosophy of we'll not 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:21.520 toilet seats, but but pretty much every other aspect of life. 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:23.600 One is taking this side of the argument, the other 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:25.800 this side. You know, what is the what is the 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.560 meaning of existence? Why are we here? How should we 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.440 approach government? I mean everything is on the table. You 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.680 go in ancient Greece. Here we're at the assembly. Yes, yeah, 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:37.760 maybe they're even talking about some of the architecture, and 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:39.440 they say, oh, but if we do, those people will 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.200 think it's a vomitory. Um. Hundreds of years later, I 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.480 think that we're so excessive that we need a place 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.520 to vomit our transgressions. Right. But the the idea, the 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.840 sort of classical idea here of of debate and are 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.560 doing is that is, you get people that are passionate 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.560 about about one side or another, get them together in 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.239 a room, and out of all this debate will emerge 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.920 truth will emerge, uh, an idea of actually which direction 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.640 we should go in? Yes, and many judicial systems are 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.079 predicated on this model, right yeah, So I mean bring 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.160 the lawyers in. One side will present this side of 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:14.840 the case, another will present the other, and out of 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:16.919 this some sort of truth will emerge. That the jury 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.600 or the judge will see and the decision will be made. Right, 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:24.399 there's a noble path to arguing times. Um, But as 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.080 we have uh discovered as of late, there is a 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.440 dark side to debate, which may or may not come 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:33.720 as a surprise to you. So let's talk about our 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.720 old friend, confirmation bias, which we've talked about quite a bit. Yes, okay, 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.720 this is this idea that we cherry picked the information 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.200 around us to support our own agenda or the idea 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.920 we already have formed in our mind. Right, and so 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.520 that's why we make mistakes. That's why we make errors 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.600 in logic, and a lot of times we thought about 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.520 this as a flaw, but it turns out that this 0:03:55.560 --> 0:04:00.840 could actually be a feature of arguing. And um, you know, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.920 there's some have been some people who say, why hasn't 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.120 natural selection actually ferreted out this part of our cognition? 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.320 Because if it keeps causing us to make mistakes, why 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.119 is it still with us. We'd be much smarter about 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.960 our choices if we ran them up against data that 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.359 challenge them, and we don't. Right. And it also the 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:22.839 other way of looking at this too is that it 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.400 instead of saying oh, why can't we have why can't 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.640 we have a news uh, you know, corporation that actually 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.719 presents both sides equally, because that would kind of be 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.320 out of keeping with with with how our mind works. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.040 it turns out that this again, this is a feature 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.320 of reasoning. Um. Cognitive social scientists Hugo merci A and 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.640 Dan Sperber think that we've been looking at confirmation confirmation 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.840 bias all wrong. They pose it in their what they 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.080 call their argumentative theory that because we humans are so 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.400 good at reasoning, uh, that confirmation bias is actually a 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.800 feature of it and not a detraction from logicum, even 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.320 though gets us in trouble sometimes. And really the reason 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.520 that we argue is not to get to a rational conclusion, 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.000 but to win the argument. So basically, the way I 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:10.600 was thinking about this, and part of this is because 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.240 I've been watching Nature shows a lot the last couple 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.080 of days, because I think of those elephant walruses, you know, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.120 the ones were the males of the big flapping noses 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.480 and the teeth and the scars, like slam into each 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.680 other and fight on the beach to see who'll get 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.800 to breed with this Uh, this harem of beautiful elephant 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.160 seals like that is essentially what all arguing is and 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.840 not to learn it men in togas standing around the 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.920 philosophizing about the world. It's basically like, it's this headbutting, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:44.000 chest dumping together kind of a situation. Well, and some 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.839 people would say to you that besides being a bunch 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:51.279 of wrong headed walruses, that it's also our ego. Oh totally. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.720 I mean, our egos are the walruses that are slamming 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.279 what I mean, seals that are slamming into each other here, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.760 you know, I feel like again, think back to that 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.040 big argument you you personally had, uh, and you'll probably 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.400 find you'll probably find your ego as the the key 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.240 instigator there. Like uh, Like, I'm just thinking back to 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.159 the last argument I had, um, which I think was 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.200 with my editor. But but there there came, there comes up, 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:17.839 Like if I was to look at a timeline of 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:22.000 that of the conversation becoming an argument, there is a 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:27.119 certain point where it becomes less about significantly less about 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.800 the topic that we are discussing, and more about the 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.520 the need to be right and the and the inability 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.159 to let the other person be right and Uh, I 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:37.880 feel like this is definitely this is definitely a part 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:42.520 of of so many argumentative situations. What varies is our 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:48.080 ability to to realize, uh, what's pulling the strings? Well, uh, 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.200 this is This is from um Mercy, a uh and 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.960 edge dot org conversation that he had with edge dot org. 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.960 He says, if you take the point of view of 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.960 the argumentative theory, having a confirmation bias its complete sense. 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.640 When you're trying to convince someone, you don't want to 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.640 find arguments for the other side. You want to find 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.279 arguments for your side, and that's what the confirmation bias 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.000 helps you to do. So that's what's what we're talking 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.320 about here, is um you know that's serving your ego, right. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.280 You probably could poke holes in your own argument if 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.280 you really wanted to find the truth, but you are 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.240 building a case, right, Yeah, there kinds of the point 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.800 where you're it's it's not not about figuring out, well, 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.160 what is actually the best solution of this problem we're discussing, 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.240 But what can I do to support the fact that 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.600 I am right and I am going to destroy you 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.080 for thinking differently? Yeah, yeah, it's it. I mean the 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.520 the what he says is that it is to devise 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:42.520 and evaluate argument arguments intended to persuade, so destroy persuade. Yes, Um, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.520 same thing right, Uh, well, at least in terms of 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.559 metaphorical arguments. But really, I mean what we're talking about 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.240 here too is and we've talked about this before, reality 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.400 is as fiction. You know, a lot of times we're 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.720 creating our own realities and they are a fiction they 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.560 you know, because they're particular to us. Um, there's no 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.360 absolute truth in each of our realities, right right, Like 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.600 another um argument I can think of because I cannot 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.240 argue with my friends for the most part. Um, well, 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:14.920 well I can think of a few friends they are 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.120 particularly argumentative. But um. But one of the last arguments 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:19.920 I remember having with with a group of friends, and 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.240 this is one of those arguments where I was the 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.880 only one that was really impassionate about it. But it 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:28.120 was over whether a particular movie was merely a social 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.400 uh quirk or just sort of interesting and in what 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.480 it said about society, or whether it was actually either 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.000 harmful to society or on some level telling about what 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.760 is wrong with us. And uh, and I was very 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.679 impassionate about it, and and in and in trying to 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.400 make my case. I'm basically saying this, I'm telling a 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.960 story about what reality is, and how this thing I'm 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.200 arguing about factors into that, uh, that that fiction, that 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.520 that particular story, that version of reality, and in their 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.800 version reality, it plays a slightlyfferent role. And well, and 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.920 this is the problem maybe why we can't many times 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.640 reach some sort of common ground, because we are furthering 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.760 our own story. Right, We are essentially living in different worlds. 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.280 I mean, and I say that, and it's a very 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.560 um kind of cliche thing to say, but think of 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.440 it as like literally a different world, a different universe, 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:26.840 a different um, a different worldview, a different bubble of reality. 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.600 And these bubbles are bumping up against each other. Well 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.280 don't we see this play out all the time in 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.360 American politics, right, because there's so much information out there, 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.160 there's so much rhetoric. But you know, it's not It seems, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.520 at least most of the time that the point of 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.960 a lot of the debates isn't to actually get to 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.440 some sort of solution or some sort of rational thought process, 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.480 but to further whatever that agenda is. And um, you know, 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.000 I just think about it just in our day to 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.400 day interactions with with one another. You know, I grew 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.640 up the family that loved to debate. My brother loves 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.560 to debate, and I can look at the patterns in 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.319 our conversation and I can see the same sort of 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.920 patterns going on, and you know, political conversations going on, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.360 where you know, you take these strategies like you know, 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.359 if the other person maybe has a more rational perspective, 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.960 you may start looking at fringe details and throwing little 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.040 Molotov cocktails. They are just to get the person feeling 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.600 a little bit more unstable in his or her argument um. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.960 And so it's it is a sport really, um. But 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.120 you know that being said, uh, there is actually an 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.920 upside to arguing, and we'll talk about that when we 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:49.719 get back. All right, we're back arguing the upside um. So, 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.640 especially as it was we're discussing this argumentative theory, it's 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.480 easy to sort of say, oh, well, arguing is just 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.360 kind of horrible. Then it's just people bumping chests against 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.280 each other. It's just egos acting out each other at 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.240 each other with nod teeth, and it's uh, individuals just 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.960 throwing around, um different versions of the world and never 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.520 actually learning anything. Yeah, but according to Mercier and Sperber, 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.520 group evaluations can actually sess out rational lines of thinking. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:20.080 And maybe not in American politics, but but obviously we 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.480 know dissent is good. I mean, this is the basis 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.080 of democracy. Right, Well, I mean, I guess you could 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.280 make the case, U is it is it really a 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.760 group discussion if they're like two parties, you know, the 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:35.400 two parties, that breaks down to two enormous people arguing 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.080 each Well, that's what people have as often cited as 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.719 a problem of the American political system. Right, that's not 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:46.120 necessarily representative of all citizens. Um, but but you know, 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.400 in theory, if you have a bunch of arguments before 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.520 a group of people, they can be evaluated as a whole. 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.480 And then this is when the flawed logic of confirmation 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.640 bias actually gets to run up against information that can 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:02.559 challenge each argument until the truly rational one emerges victorious. 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.080 This is the idea, and we have seen this in play, 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.000 you know, you know, there's certainly think tanks are predicated 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.520 on this as well. And we've also discussed a group 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.360 think and uh an emergence and the idea that you know, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.280 people guessing at the jelly beans, and as long as 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.959 they don't have too many preconceived notions about what they're 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.560 they're they're guessing about, you know, if if they haven't 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.200 been told what they're going to believe, the truth will 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.600 often emerge from what the street, from what the the 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.680 the average person is thinking. That's right if they haven't 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.000 been influenced by the person next to them. But it's 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.240 also good for you on a physical level. Um. You know, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.000 we we can certainly be really irrational at times and 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.640 as a result, all of us have had that knockdown, 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.319 drag out argument at one time or another that she 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.720 makes you feel awful. Um, So it makes sense that 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.000 most of the time we would avoid a conflict if 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.520 we could. But it turns out that arguing is actually 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.400 better for you than turning the other cheek and avoidance. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.760 And when I say arguing, I mean in a productive way. Okay, Um, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.960 So how do we know? From a study conducted by 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.000 the Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan, 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.360 there were one thousand, eight hundred and forty two adults 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.600 ages UH eighty four, and they were asked each day 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.280 for eight days whether they had engaged in an argument, 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:18.840 or whether they had experienced a situation in which they 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.440 could have argued but decided to let it pass without 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.439 a fight. Uh. The subjects also gave a live examples 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.480 for four of those eight days, and researcher Kira Bird 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:33.560 found out that sixty percent of the participants sidestepped arguments. Okay, 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.280 so that sort of mirrors what we normally do anyway. 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.040 And it was found that this group had elevated levels 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.600 of the stress hormone cortisol, which we know can really 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.600 mess up your body when it's elevated. And um, those 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.520 who experienced tension and argued and those who experienced tension 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.840 and avoided arguments all felt some sense of aneyes, and 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.240 we're talking about negative emotions upset stomachs. But those who 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.600 avoided arguments still felt the emotions and physical symptoms the 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.360 next day. So I had far reaching effects for those 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.040 people who avoided it. I ran across an interesting study 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.320 myself from University of Virginia and this one that was 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.480 just recently published. UM, and it makes the argument that 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:19.040 an argumentative teenager is is actually an ideal an ideal 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.000 person to have in your household. UM, Because though it 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.000 may not seem like it at the time, right, right. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.160 Uh So, if you were yourself a teenager, and I 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:29.920 know we have teen listeners out there, or if you're 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.640 a parent of a teenager, uh, you may put yourself 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.160 into this scenario. The study argues that these a disputes 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.240 between a team and the parent are actually a symbol 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.200 of keen developmental separation from the parents and uh and 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.400 it's it's a vital part of growing up and that 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:51.200 it actually, um it actually leads to lifelong benefits to 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.680 the child that they as they grow up, they're going 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:55.520 to be if they argue with the parents a lot there, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.880 they're sort of testing those muscles. They're using those muscles 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.800 of indefinite thought. So if they then faced with, say 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:06.760 the decision of whether to uh engage in underage drinking 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:08.920 or any other kind of risky behavior, they're more likely 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:10.800 to turn that kind of stuff down. They're going to 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.400 be more resistant to peer pressure. I've also read to 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.800 you that's a sign of respect that the child actually 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.680 or the teenager wants to engage in debate with you 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.240 because they're really interested in your thoughts and it's trying 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.520 to you know, they're trying to inform their own worldview 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.120 and run them up against their thoughts. So again, you 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.200 know there's that independent thought emerging. Yeah, a teenager who 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:35.000 thinks independently and maybe rebels against whatever the the man 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.440 is saying. You know, I mean it may be a 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.840 little annoying when you are the man, but when they 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.040 get out there in the real world, they're gonna maybe 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.800 avoid us some of the more the more harmful elements 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.680 in society. Yeah. So so any of you team listeners, 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.360 you could always melt the heart of your parents by 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.200 saying I'm just arguing with you because I respect your opinion. 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.280 They try it out, see if it works. So what 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:57.680 is the future of debate? Based on what we know 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:02.240 here and the technology that continues is to emerge around us. 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.640 So where are we headed? Uh, it's up for debate, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:09.200 I suppose. Uh. Well, there's this little paradox of the Internet. Right, 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.560 everything is available to us at our fingertips information all 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.320 the time. Um, so many debates that you could engage in, 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.640 but there are systems that continue to winnow down and 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.280 serve up only what we like. Alright, And instantly Facebook 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.200 comes to mind. Facebook, Yeah, they their news feed has 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.440 a feature that learns what you like and will show 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.000 updates from only friends that you align your political interests with. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.440 For instance, Uh, stumble Upon is another good example. It's 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:37.480 trying to ferret out what you like and what you 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.440 don't like. Right, these are situations where you're pressing, oh, 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.800 I like that, I don't like that, I'm responding to this, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.400 I'm leaving a comment on that, and eventually it's learning. 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:49.800 It's it's via algorithms. It's figuring out what you like 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.000 and only serving that to you. Right, So, if you 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.600 were to just go into absolute autopilot and allow all 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.960 these systems to serve up all this information that it 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.440 thinks you like, then know you've really narrowed the scope 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.320 of what you're exposed to. And then you know what 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.879 happens to our worldviews just kind of shrink down to 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.560 these little flivers of the like the underlying audiologies behind 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.040 the information that served up. Well, it's like stumble Upon. 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.600 It's it's like it's serving your dinner and it's and 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.240 it's saying, oh, well, he doesn't really like to eat spinach, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.040 so I'm going to quit serving it to him. He 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.920 doesn't like l O L cats um, he's not getting 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.000 any more of that, she's not really into Huffington's post. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.760 No more of that, uh to the point where like 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.080 maybe maybe you need l O L cat every now 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.480 and then, maybe maybe you need to be exposed to uh, 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.199 any number of media outlets that you have turned your 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.439 back on because you don't really appreciate what they have 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.520 to offer. We need l O L cat all the 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.400 time in my opinion. This is actually from the book 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.400 called Monoculture, How One Story Is Changing Everything by F. S. Michael's. 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:50.920 Um he's kind of saying, like, you know, these these 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.000 filters on the Internet could create a monoculture for us, right, 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.159 and not just the Internet, but different aspects of the 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.480 life that we live. Um. He says, a monoculture doesn't 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.400 mean that everyone believes exactly the same thing or acts 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:05.560 in exactly the same way, but that we end up 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.480 sharing key beliefs and assumptions that direct our lives. Because 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.120 the monoculture is mostly left unarticulated until it has been 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.440 displaced years later. We learn as boundaries by trial and error. 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:19.879 So if you grew up in the Dark Ages, you 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:21.639 probably didn't know you were in the Dark Ages, right, 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.360 So you know, the Renaissance arrived and all its glory 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.679 and uh ideas and and and made you completely have 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.080 a paradigm shift. It does seem when I think back 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.199 on the on my own use of the Internet, it 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.560 seems like there was I used to argue more on 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.800 the internet. Now, possibly that could be in a situation 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.600 where I just had more time and have like less 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.680 of a life, uh in the old day, so I 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.480 could I can engage in long arguments about about one 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:50.959 toprica or another. But it seems like, uh, it does 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.600 seem like things like Facebook and UH and stumble Upon. 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.800 If it's it's it's made an environment where you are 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.080 only tuning into the things that you agree with and 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.000 you're not encountering the people that you would argue with. Well, no, 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.280 it's interesting you said that, because I mean, we live 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.000 in Atlanta, and I've always joked that I have a 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.360 five mile radius in Atlanta, and it's you know, it's 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.720 my neighborhood. It's what I like, it's you know, I 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.840 chose to live there because it fits my ideas of 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.159 what a neighborhood is and what it contains. But there 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.199 are section segments of Atlanta though, that do not appeal 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.119 to you. But there are some that do. But for 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.000 the most part, because it's my neighborhood and I'm situated there, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.080 I don't so much go out of this five mile 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.760 radius except for when I come to work. Um. But 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:34.840 the point is is that are we creating our own 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.480 little neighborhoods in our Internet existence, which are providing this, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.040 uh you know, fodder for thought and in essence creating 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.800 these silos of thought? Um, you know because just as 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.920 you had mentioned, uh, you know, you're not as argumentative 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.280 um the internet as you used to be. But is 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.720 this because you are you know, being served up information 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.600 that you like that's being selected for you to some extent? Yeah, 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.320 I mean it'll sort of allows us, Paul to crawl 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.720 even more into our bubble and sort of and live 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.800 inside this, uh, this carefully crafted bubble of beliefs. Well, 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.119 and then there's also this idea that we kind of 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.280 have to put the blinders on sometimes because it is 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.840 completely overwhelming. Yeah. You know, so if you're trying to 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.679 seek out every single argument or perspective on an issue, 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.480 I mean you you could become completely dumbfounded really yea, 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.520 or enlightened. All right, Well, let's put that topic to 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:34.359 bed and call out the robot that is an argumentative robot. 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.080 By the way, Yes that he's good enough to to 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.760 shut it when we're actually recording, but yeah, it's way 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.479 to l afterwards. All right, here's one from Azra Azra right, 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.320 Senden says high, I just started listening to your show 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:47.840 a couple of months ago, and I wanted to say 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.920 I really really enjoy it. I just want to listen 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.520 to your episode about our cohabitation with robot servants when 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.719 you mentioned Siri and I want and I felt compelled 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.080