1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: in this they could kick this one off. I want 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: everyone to think back on their most recent argument. I mean, like, 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: not like a little argument, but when something where it 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: actually got a little heated, even even if it was 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: just a heat on one side only. Yeah, and we're 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: not talking like, hey, did you you know you gotta 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: leave the seat up? You know kind of argument right 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: right that, you know, because that's sort of like a 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: wrote usual argument between couples, right yeah, and talking about 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: something that there was a topic and you felt passionate 14 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: about it, and you had a story to tell about 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: why you were passionate, and you were arguing with this story, 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: and and and I do have some serious questions about 17 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,319 Speaker 1: anyone who's still arguing, for um, keeping the seat up 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: like that just seems. I mean, I'm just gonna agree 19 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: that we can get an entire podcast on that, and 20 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: I'm sure we could find some science and some stats. 21 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: Well in in a way, this podcast is a podcast 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: about that, because that's actually a great argument to keep 23 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: in mind because I have met uh none, I guess 24 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: you can call them men who the people who like 25 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: to put the seat up? Who or make an impassioned 26 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: argument for why it's it's totally cool that they don't 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: put the seat down. You know, they'll be like, oh, well, 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: it just you know, it's one figures and the other 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: or I can't remember all the arguments they make four 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: uh continuing and doing this thing they do. But it 31 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: actually kind of kind of strikes at the core of 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: what arguing is all about, which we're going to discuss 33 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: in this podcast, the science of arguing. So first, let's 34 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: back up. Let's imagine the sort of classical idea of arguing. Okay, well, well, 35 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: I think of it more in terms of debate, really debate. 36 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: So imagine some old Greek men in their their their robes. 37 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: Was it called a toga then, or is it just 38 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: kind of a robe. Let's go with toga. Let's go 39 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: with toga. Yeah, just create a more instantly visible picture 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: in the mind old man in toga, like a little 41 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: flabby chest kind of exposed there. So you're gonna lot 42 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: of details. Standing in the middle of this forum and 43 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: they're discussing the you know, the philosophy of we'll not 44 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: toilet seats, but but pretty much every other aspect of life. 45 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: One is taking this side of the argument, the other 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: this side. You know, what is the what is the 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: meaning of existence? Why are we here? How should we 48 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: approach government? I mean everything is on the table. You 49 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: go in ancient Greece. Here we're at the assembly. Yes, yeah, 50 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: maybe they're even talking about some of the architecture, and 51 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: they say, oh, but if we do, those people will 52 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: think it's a vomitory. Um. Hundreds of years later, I 53 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: think that we're so excessive that we need a place 54 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: to vomit our transgressions. Right. But the the idea, the 55 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: sort of classical idea here of of debate and are 56 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: doing is that is, you get people that are passionate 57 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: about about one side or another, get them together in 58 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: a room, and out of all this debate will emerge 59 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: truth will emerge, uh, an idea of actually which direction 60 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: we should go in? Yes, and many judicial systems are 61 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: predicated on this model, right yeah, So I mean bring 62 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: the lawyers in. One side will present this side of 63 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: the case, another will present the other, and out of 64 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: this some sort of truth will emerge. That the jury 65 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: or the judge will see and the decision will be made. Right, 66 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: there's a noble path to arguing times. Um, But as 67 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: we have uh discovered as of late, there is a 68 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: dark side to debate, which may or may not come 69 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: as a surprise to you. So let's talk about our 70 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: old friend, confirmation bias, which we've talked about quite a bit. Yes, okay, 71 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: this is this idea that we cherry picked the information 72 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: around us to support our own agenda or the idea 73 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: we already have formed in our mind. Right, and so 74 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: that's why we make mistakes. That's why we make errors 75 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: in logic, and a lot of times we thought about 76 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: this as a flaw, but it turns out that this 77 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: could actually be a feature of arguing. And um, you know, 78 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: there's some have been some people who say, why hasn't 79 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: natural selection actually ferreted out this part of our cognition? 80 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: Because if it keeps causing us to make mistakes, why 81 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,119 Speaker 1: is it still with us. We'd be much smarter about 82 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: our choices if we ran them up against data that 83 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: challenge them, and we don't. Right. And it also the 84 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: other way of looking at this too is that it 85 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: instead of saying oh, why can't we have why can't 86 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: we have a news uh, you know, corporation that actually 87 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: presents both sides equally, because that would kind of be 88 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: out of keeping with with with how our mind works. Yeah. Yeah, 89 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: it turns out that this again, this is a feature 90 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: of reasoning. Um. Cognitive social scientists Hugo merci A and 91 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: Dan Sperber think that we've been looking at confirmation confirmation 92 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: bias all wrong. They pose it in their what they 93 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: call their argumentative theory that because we humans are so 94 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: good at reasoning, uh, that confirmation bias is actually a 95 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: feature of it and not a detraction from logicum, even 96 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: though gets us in trouble sometimes. And really the reason 97 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: that we argue is not to get to a rational conclusion, 98 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: but to win the argument. So basically, the way I 99 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: was thinking about this, and part of this is because 100 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: I've been watching Nature shows a lot the last couple 101 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: of days, because I think of those elephant walruses, you know, 102 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: the ones were the males of the big flapping noses 103 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: and the teeth and the scars, like slam into each 104 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: other and fight on the beach to see who'll get 105 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: to breed with this Uh, this harem of beautiful elephant 106 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: seals like that is essentially what all arguing is and 107 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: not to learn it men in togas standing around the 108 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: philosophizing about the world. It's basically like, it's this headbutting, 109 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: chest dumping together kind of a situation. Well, and some 110 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: people would say to you that besides being a bunch 111 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: of wrong headed walruses, that it's also our ego. Oh totally. 112 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: I mean, our egos are the walruses that are slamming 113 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: what I mean, seals that are slamming into each other here, 114 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like again, think back to that 115 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: big argument you you personally had, uh, and you'll probably 116 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: find you'll probably find your ego as the the key 117 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: instigator there. Like uh, Like, I'm just thinking back to 118 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: the last argument I had, um, which I think was 119 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: with my editor. But but there there came, there comes up, 120 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: Like if I was to look at a timeline of 121 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: that of the conversation becoming an argument, there is a 122 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:27,119 Speaker 1: certain point where it becomes less about significantly less about 123 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: the topic that we are discussing, and more about the 124 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: the need to be right and the and the inability 125 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: to let the other person be right and Uh, I 126 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: feel like this is definitely this is definitely a part 127 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: of of so many argumentative situations. What varies is our 128 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: ability to to realize, uh, what's pulling the strings? Well, uh, 129 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: this is This is from um Mercy, a uh and 130 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: edge dot org conversation that he had with edge dot org. 131 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: He says, if you take the point of view of 132 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: the argumentative theory, having a confirmation bias its complete sense. 133 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: When you're trying to convince someone, you don't want to 134 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: find arguments for the other side. You want to find 135 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: arguments for your side, and that's what the confirmation bias 136 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: helps you to do. So that's what's what we're talking 137 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: about here, is um you know that's serving your ego, right. 138 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: You probably could poke holes in your own argument if 139 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: you really wanted to find the truth, but you are 140 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: building a case, right, Yeah, there kinds of the point 141 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: where you're it's it's not not about figuring out, well, 142 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: what is actually the best solution of this problem we're discussing, 143 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: But what can I do to support the fact that 144 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: I am right and I am going to destroy you 145 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: for thinking differently? Yeah, yeah, it's it. I mean the 146 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: the what he says is that it is to devise 147 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: and evaluate argument arguments intended to persuade, so destroy persuade. Yes, Um, 148 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: same thing right, Uh, well, at least in terms of 149 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 1: metaphorical arguments. But really, I mean what we're talking about 150 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: here too is and we've talked about this before, reality 151 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: is as fiction. You know, a lot of times we're 152 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: creating our own realities and they are a fiction they 153 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, because they're particular to us. Um, there's no 154 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: absolute truth in each of our realities, right right, Like 155 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: another um argument I can think of because I cannot 156 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: argue with my friends for the most part. Um, well, 157 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: well I can think of a few friends they are 158 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: particularly argumentative. But um. But one of the last arguments 159 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: I remember having with with a group of friends, and 160 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: this is one of those arguments where I was the 161 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: only one that was really impassionate about it. But it 162 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: was over whether a particular movie was merely a social 163 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: uh quirk or just sort of interesting and in what 164 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: it said about society, or whether it was actually either 165 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: harmful to society or on some level telling about what 166 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: is wrong with us. And uh, and I was very 167 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: impassionate about it, and and in and in trying to 168 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: make my case. I'm basically saying this, I'm telling a 169 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: story about what reality is, and how this thing I'm 170 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: arguing about factors into that, uh, that that fiction, that 171 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: that particular story, that version of reality, and in their 172 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: version reality, it plays a slightlyfferent role. And well, and 173 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: this is the problem maybe why we can't many times 174 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: reach some sort of common ground, because we are furthering 175 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: our own story. Right, We are essentially living in different worlds. 176 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and I say that, and it's a very 177 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: um kind of cliche thing to say, but think of 178 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: it as like literally a different world, a different universe, 179 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: a different um, a different worldview, a different bubble of reality. 180 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: And these bubbles are bumping up against each other. Well 181 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: don't we see this play out all the time in 182 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: American politics, right, because there's so much information out there, 183 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: there's so much rhetoric. But you know, it's not It seems, 184 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: at least most of the time that the point of 185 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the debates isn't to actually get to 186 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: some sort of solution or some sort of rational thought process, 187 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: but to further whatever that agenda is. And um, you know, 188 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: I just think about it just in our day to 189 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: day interactions with with one another. You know, I grew 190 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: up the family that loved to debate. My brother loves 191 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: to debate, and I can look at the patterns in 192 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: our conversation and I can see the same sort of 193 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: patterns going on, and you know, political conversations going on, 194 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: where you know, you take these strategies like you know, 195 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,359 Speaker 1: if the other person maybe has a more rational perspective, 196 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: you may start looking at fringe details and throwing little 197 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails. They are just to get the person feeling 198 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more unstable in his or her argument um. 199 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: And so it's it is a sport really, um. But 200 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: you know that being said, uh, there is actually an 201 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: upside to arguing, and we'll talk about that when we 202 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:49,719 Speaker 1: get back. All right, we're back arguing the upside um. So, 203 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: especially as it was we're discussing this argumentative theory, it's 204 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: easy to sort of say, oh, well, arguing is just 205 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: kind of horrible. Then it's just people bumping chests against 206 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: each other. It's just egos acting out each other at 207 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: each other with nod teeth, and it's uh, individuals just 208 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: throwing around, um different versions of the world and never 209 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: actually learning anything. Yeah, but according to Mercier and Sperber, 210 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: group evaluations can actually sess out rational lines of thinking. 211 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: And maybe not in American politics, but but obviously we 212 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: know dissent is good. I mean, this is the basis 213 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: of democracy. Right, Well, I mean, I guess you could 214 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: make the case, U is it is it really a 215 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: group discussion if they're like two parties, you know, the 216 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: two parties, that breaks down to two enormous people arguing 217 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: each Well, that's what people have as often cited as 218 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: a problem of the American political system. Right, that's not 219 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: necessarily representative of all citizens. Um, but but you know, 220 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: in theory, if you have a bunch of arguments before 221 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: a group of people, they can be evaluated as a whole. 222 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: And then this is when the flawed logic of confirmation 223 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: bias actually gets to run up against information that can 224 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: challenge each argument until the truly rational one emerges victorious. 225 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: This is the idea, and we have seen this in play, 226 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, you know, there's certainly think tanks are predicated 227 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: on this as well. And we've also discussed a group 228 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: think and uh an emergence and the idea that you know, 229 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: people guessing at the jelly beans, and as long as 230 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: they don't have too many preconceived notions about what they're 231 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: they're they're guessing about, you know, if if they haven't 232 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: been told what they're going to believe, the truth will 233 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: often emerge from what the street, from what the the 234 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: the average person is thinking. That's right if they haven't 235 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: been influenced by the person next to them. But it's 236 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: also good for you on a physical level. Um. You know, 237 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: we we can certainly be really irrational at times and 238 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: as a result, all of us have had that knockdown, 239 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: drag out argument at one time or another that she 240 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: makes you feel awful. Um, So it makes sense that 241 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: most of the time we would avoid a conflict if 242 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: we could. But it turns out that arguing is actually 243 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: better for you than turning the other cheek and avoidance. 244 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: And when I say arguing, I mean in a productive way. Okay, Um, 245 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: So how do we know? From a study conducted by 246 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: the Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan, 247 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: there were one thousand, eight hundred and forty two adults 248 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: ages UH eighty four, and they were asked each day 249 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: for eight days whether they had engaged in an argument, 250 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: or whether they had experienced a situation in which they 251 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: could have argued but decided to let it pass without 252 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: a fight. Uh. The subjects also gave a live examples 253 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: for four of those eight days, and researcher Kira Bird 254 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: found out that sixty percent of the participants sidestepped arguments. Okay, 255 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: so that sort of mirrors what we normally do anyway. 256 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: And it was found that this group had elevated levels 257 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: of the stress hormone cortisol, which we know can really 258 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: mess up your body when it's elevated. And um, those 259 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: who experienced tension and argued and those who experienced tension 260 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: and avoided arguments all felt some sense of aneyes, and 261 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about negative emotions upset stomachs. But those who 262 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: avoided arguments still felt the emotions and physical symptoms the 263 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: next day. So I had far reaching effects for those 264 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: people who avoided it. I ran across an interesting study 265 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: myself from University of Virginia and this one that was 266 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: just recently published. UM, and it makes the argument that 267 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: an argumentative teenager is is actually an ideal an ideal 268 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: person to have in your household. UM, Because though it 269 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: may not seem like it at the time, right, right. 270 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: Uh So, if you were yourself a teenager, and I 271 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: know we have teen listeners out there, or if you're 272 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: a parent of a teenager, uh, you may put yourself 273 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: into this scenario. The study argues that these a disputes 274 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: between a team and the parent are actually a symbol 275 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: of keen developmental separation from the parents and uh and 276 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: it's it's a vital part of growing up and that 277 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: it actually, um it actually leads to lifelong benefits to 278 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: the child that they as they grow up, they're going 279 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: to be if they argue with the parents a lot there, 280 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: they're sort of testing those muscles. They're using those muscles 281 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: of indefinite thought. So if they then faced with, say 282 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: the decision of whether to uh engage in underage drinking 283 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: or any other kind of risky behavior, they're more likely 284 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: to turn that kind of stuff down. They're going to 285 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: be more resistant to peer pressure. I've also read to 286 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: you that's a sign of respect that the child actually 287 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: or the teenager wants to engage in debate with you 288 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: because they're really interested in your thoughts and it's trying 289 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: to you know, they're trying to inform their own worldview 290 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: and run them up against their thoughts. So again, you 291 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: know there's that independent thought emerging. Yeah, a teenager who 292 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: thinks independently and maybe rebels against whatever the the man 293 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: is saying. You know, I mean it may be a 294 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: little annoying when you are the man, but when they 295 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: get out there in the real world, they're gonna maybe 296 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: avoid us some of the more the more harmful elements 297 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: in society. Yeah. So so any of you team listeners, 298 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: you could always melt the heart of your parents by 299 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: saying I'm just arguing with you because I respect your opinion. 300 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: They try it out, see if it works. So what 301 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: is the future of debate? Based on what we know 302 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: here and the technology that continues is to emerge around us. 303 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: So where are we headed? Uh, it's up for debate, 304 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: I suppose. Uh. Well, there's this little paradox of the Internet. Right, 305 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: everything is available to us at our fingertips information all 306 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: the time. Um, so many debates that you could engage in, 307 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: but there are systems that continue to winnow down and 308 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: serve up only what we like. Alright, And instantly Facebook 309 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: comes to mind. Facebook, Yeah, they their news feed has 310 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: a feature that learns what you like and will show 311 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: updates from only friends that you align your political interests with. 312 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: For instance, Uh, stumble Upon is another good example. It's 313 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: trying to ferret out what you like and what you 314 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: don't like. Right, these are situations where you're pressing, oh, 315 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: I like that, I don't like that, I'm responding to this, 316 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm leaving a comment on that, and eventually it's learning. 317 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: It's it's via algorithms. It's figuring out what you like 318 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: and only serving that to you. Right, So, if you 319 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: were to just go into absolute autopilot and allow all 320 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: these systems to serve up all this information that it 321 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: thinks you like, then know you've really narrowed the scope 322 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: of what you're exposed to. And then you know what 323 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: happens to our worldviews just kind of shrink down to 324 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: these little flivers of the like the underlying audiologies behind 325 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: the information that served up. Well, it's like stumble Upon. 326 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: It's it's like it's serving your dinner and it's and 327 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: it's saying, oh, well, he doesn't really like to eat spinach, 328 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: so I'm going to quit serving it to him. He 329 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: doesn't like l O L cats um, he's not getting 330 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: any more of that, she's not really into Huffington's post. 331 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: No more of that, uh to the point where like 332 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: maybe maybe you need l O L cat every now 333 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: and then, maybe maybe you need to be exposed to uh, 334 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: any number of media outlets that you have turned your 335 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: back on because you don't really appreciate what they have 336 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: to offer. We need l O L cat all the 337 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: time in my opinion. This is actually from the book 338 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: called Monoculture, How One Story Is Changing Everything by F. S. Michael's. 339 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: Um he's kind of saying, like, you know, these these 340 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: filters on the Internet could create a monoculture for us, right, 341 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: and not just the Internet, but different aspects of the 342 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: life that we live. Um. He says, a monoculture doesn't 343 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: mean that everyone believes exactly the same thing or acts 344 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: in exactly the same way, but that we end up 345 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: sharing key beliefs and assumptions that direct our lives. Because 346 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: the monoculture is mostly left unarticulated until it has been 347 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: displaced years later. We learn as boundaries by trial and error. 348 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: So if you grew up in the Dark Ages, you 349 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: probably didn't know you were in the Dark Ages, right, 350 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: So you know, the Renaissance arrived and all its glory 351 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: and uh ideas and and and made you completely have 352 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: a paradigm shift. It does seem when I think back 353 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: on the on my own use of the Internet, it 354 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: seems like there was I used to argue more on 355 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: the internet. Now, possibly that could be in a situation 356 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: where I just had more time and have like less 357 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: of a life, uh in the old day, so I 358 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: could I can engage in long arguments about about one 359 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 1: toprica or another. But it seems like, uh, it does 360 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: seem like things like Facebook and UH and stumble Upon. 361 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: If it's it's it's made an environment where you are 362 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: only tuning into the things that you agree with and 363 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: you're not encountering the people that you would argue with. Well, no, 364 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: it's interesting you said that, because I mean, we live 365 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and I've always joked that I have a 366 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: five mile radius in Atlanta, and it's you know, it's 367 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: my neighborhood. It's what I like, it's you know, I 368 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: chose to live there because it fits my ideas of 369 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: what a neighborhood is and what it contains. But there 370 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: are section segments of Atlanta though, that do not appeal 371 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: to you. But there are some that do. But for 372 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: the most part, because it's my neighborhood and I'm situated there, 373 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: I don't so much go out of this five mile 374 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: radius except for when I come to work. Um. But 375 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: the point is is that are we creating our own 376 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: little neighborhoods in our Internet existence, which are providing this, 377 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: uh you know, fodder for thought and in essence creating 378 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: these silos of thought? Um, you know because just as 379 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: you had mentioned, uh, you know, you're not as argumentative 380 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: um the internet as you used to be. But is 381 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: this because you are you know, being served up information 382 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: that you like that's being selected for you to some extent? Yeah, 383 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean it'll sort of allows us, Paul to crawl 384 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: even more into our bubble and sort of and live 385 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: inside this, uh, this carefully crafted bubble of beliefs. Well, 386 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: and then there's also this idea that we kind of 387 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: have to put the blinders on sometimes because it is 388 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: completely overwhelming. Yeah. You know, so if you're trying to 389 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: seek out every single argument or perspective on an issue, 390 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: I mean you you could become completely dumbfounded really yea, 391 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: or enlightened. All right, Well, let's put that topic to 392 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: bed and call out the robot that is an argumentative robot. 393 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: By the way, Yes that he's good enough to to 394 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: shut it when we're actually recording, but yeah, it's way 395 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: to l afterwards. All right, here's one from Azra Azra right, 396 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: Senden says high, I just started listening to your show 397 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: a couple of months ago, and I wanted to say 398 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: I really really enjoy it. I just want to listen 399 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: to your episode about our cohabitation with robot servants when 400 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: you mentioned Siri and I want and I felt compelled 401 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: to say something. I have a very small list, but 402 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: it is still there and makes life very difficult when 403 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: trying to call customer support. All these companies that are 404 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: trying to get you to use a computer instead of 405 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: a human being make me very frustrated because the computers 406 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: never understand me. I end up yelled at by yelling 407 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: at the thing and pressing random numbers in order to 408 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: confuse it enough until it connects me with a human being. 409 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: Now I am not the biggest Apple fanatic, but I 410 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: have just started playing with Syria on the iPhone and 411 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: am thoroughly impressed. It understands almost everything I say. This 412 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: is my first positive experience talking to a computer and 413 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: it might turn me around on the whole subject. Now, 414 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: if they could get it to understand accent, that would 415 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: be really great. Thank you for your time. Oh, very cool. 416 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: That just the cract maps. I was just thinking about 417 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: the times that I've actually yelled automated oh yeah voice 418 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: recording before, and then it felt foolish or was really 419 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: sarcastic toward it. Yeah. I've also wondered like sometimes I'll 420 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: be like I'll be like, oh, I just want to 421 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: tell this machine off, and then I'm like, oh, well, 422 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: what if they had a program the end to where 423 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: if I start saying bad things to it, it's going 424 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: to just instantly shut me down. Yeahs, or it's starts 425 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: saying to you you know this is in the future. 426 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: I sent some sarcasm in your voice. Would you like 427 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: to continue the call? All right? Here's another one. This 428 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: is from Becky, and Becky writes in and says, I 429 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: love stuff to blow your mind. I especially love listening 430 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: to it while I'm studying or reading textbooks because it 431 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: breaks up the monotony of taking notes on dry textbook material. 432 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: I especially love when something I've heard recently on this 433 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: podcast comes up in a conversation on one of my classes, 434 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: because then I can quote you guys and seem very 435 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: seem much more knowledgeable than I really am. Smiley histnic place. 436 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: I am really behind on episodes because I'm a pretty 437 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: new listener. But I just listen to your Musical Hallucinations 438 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: book episode and I wanted to write in because it's 439 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: really interesting to me as a psychology major in college. 440 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: I don't think this counts is true musical hallucination. But 441 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: I often find myself hearing music during the early morning 442 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: hours before my alarm clock goes off. My alarm plays 443 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: music to wake me up, and I often wake up 444 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: totally convinced that music that music is playing, but when 445 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: I look at the clot it is time to get up. 446 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: Yet sometimes it's so convincing that I start to get 447 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: up and only later recognize that I have woken up 448 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: before I need to. Sometimes it's a specific song that 449 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: I can identify or even hear the lyrics uh in 450 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: the voice or the singer, And other times it is 451 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: more generic music that doesn't seem like any specific song 452 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: that I know or have heard before. It can be 453 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: quite annoying because after I wake up thinking i've heard 454 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 1: the music, I usually can't go back to sleep. So 455 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: that's my musical hallucination story. Thanks very much for making 456 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: the podcast and making me aware of strength phenomena without 457 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: ever needing to leave my dorm room. Oh, Becky, you know, 458 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: I mean seriously, it sounds like you need to be composing. 459 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: I mean this, This is what I happened to Paul McCartney. Right, 460 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: He woke up with the tune of Yesterday in his 461 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: head and immediately ran over to his piano and I 462 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: put it down, and he was afraid that he had 463 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: actually ripped off a tune. Uh So, I don't know. 464 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: Look into it, Becky, you could be a composing. It 465 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: brings to mind like I have this gripe that is 466 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: growing up as far as the way our devices use music, 467 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: Like I end up using my iPhone to play music 468 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times when I'm like in the house 469 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: and all, and it will do this thing where you're 470 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: getting a call, right, you're listening to a mixer, an 471 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: album or something. You're getting a call and then the 472 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: music will sort of dive down. They'll leave this this 473 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: pose will suddenly develop, It'll it'll go silent for a second. 474 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: And then the call, we'll we'll register, you'll get your 475 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: ringtone or whatever. But it's got to the point where 476 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: there's a naturally occurring uh dip in the volume, say 477 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: like a gap between tracks or just an abrupt stop 478 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: between between the tracks and a mix. It'll throw me 479 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: offer a second, I think I'm getting a phone call. 480 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: And it really makes me mad at the technology because 481 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, this would this was not an issue before, 482 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: before the technology became involved in this. That would have 483 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: just been a gap that wouldn't have registered in my 484 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: brain as anything like, oh, you might be giving a 485 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: call from your security company, or oh, um, you know, 486 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: my wife's trying to reach me, I you know, or 487 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's my mom calling that kind of thing. Well, 488 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: you need to blame your predictive modeling mind, which it's 489 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: all excited, start serving up a little dopamine to your 490 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: brain because it thinks that's call from your wife. Yeah, 491 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: so there there you go. It's it's uh, I just 492 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: I just hate the technology has done into my music. 493 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: It's kind of like when your brain into my brain. 494 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: It's like when suddenly, uh, you'll hear a sound in 495 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: a mix, sounds sort of like a ringtone and I'll 496 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: throw you off for a second, you think of getting 497 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: a phone call it? Yeah. Technology. 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