1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: When the world is a disaster, people want nostalgia, even 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: if it's a false nostalgia. And this nostalgia for a 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote better time when women were quote unquote traditional 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: is really obscenely misplaced. 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: There are no girls on the internet. 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and unbost creative, I'm bridge 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 3: tat and this is there are no girls on the internet. 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 3: If you are a woman, listen out, because I need 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 3: to tell you something kind of important. It turns out 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 3: we have all been tricked. 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 4: Oh. 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 3: Yes, feminism was alive, and it was just a scam 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 3: to get us working outside of the home so we 14 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 3: could provide more taxable income to the government. 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: It turns out that we were much. 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 3: Better off back in the fifties as traditional housewives. Think 17 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 3: about it, we didn't have to work outside of the 18 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 3: home and becau it's been all of our time raising 19 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: our kids and running a household. And we were so 20 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: much happier back then too. You know, back when we 21 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 3: as women couldn't own property, couldn't vote, couldn't take out 22 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 3: a credit card. 23 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 2: Oh, and it was also legal for our spouses. 24 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: To rape us. So if you spend any time at 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 3: all on TikTok. You're probably seeing an influx of this 26 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 3: kind of content, which is commonly called trad wife content 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 3: short for traditional wife, deposits that women weren't just happier, 28 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 3: but also we were more empowered when we stayed at 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 3: home and embraced more traditional gendered roles in the household. 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: And I believe that this. 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 3: Is not a coincidence against the backdrop of some pretty 32 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: scary and heavy political and social happenings, things like economic instability, 33 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: impending climate crisis, which always disproportionately harms women more, the 34 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 3: gutting of Roe versus Wade, and the loss of the 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 3: right to control our own bodies. I think content like 36 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 3: this does two things. One, it responds to and exploits 37 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: the understandable fear and anxiety that a lot of women 38 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: are feeling, particularly in the absence of any kind of 39 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 3: a meaningful institutional support. And I also think it's kind 40 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: of meant to sue us in a way. You know, 41 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: don't be too angry, ladies, you were much better off 42 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: without rights anyway. But all of this content is just 43 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: the depiction of a fantasy life that never even really existed, 44 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 3: And it's yet another way that social media is trying 45 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: to sell women on a dangerous lie. 46 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Piazza, and I'm an author, journalist, and podcaster, 47 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: most recently the host of the podcast called Under the Influence. 48 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 3: On Joe's great podcast Under the Influence, she chronicles how 49 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: the business and culture of influencing social media and the 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 3: Internet has impacted women and right now, a lot of 51 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: what she's seeing includes trad wife content. So your podcast 52 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: is amazing, and that was one of the reasons why 53 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: I was so excited to talk to you today, because 54 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: you know, I've been scrolling social media a lot lately 55 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: and I can't seem to get away from this, like 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: I guess, trad wife content. That's content made by women 57 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: that is sort of giving us this idea that being 58 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: a traditional, stay at home wife and mother is the 59 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 3: path to power. 60 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: And happiness for women. Have you seen this content on 61 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: your feed? 62 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? Not only have I seen this content on my feed, 63 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: but it has been dominating my feed for some reason. 64 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: I don't Maybe sometimes I'm like Instagram knows I'm pregnant 65 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: and wants to force me to stay home in the kitchen, 66 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: barefoot and pregnant forever. 67 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 3: And it's you'd be happier if that's how you lived 68 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 3: your life, and. 69 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: They think I'd be happier, and you know, so my 70 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: gut reaction to this is and it's the same as 71 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: it is with most things. If you want to stay 72 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: home and be a quote unquote traditional wife and you know, 73 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: take on all of the trappings of domesticity that were 74 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: popularized by mass media in the nineteen fifties, and this 75 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: is what you really want, fucking awesome, You do it, 76 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: you do you. And my feminism is mostly centered on 77 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: women choosing what makes them happy. I do not necessarily 78 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: think that this is the path to empowerment for the 79 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: majority of women, but I do think that this is 80 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: becoming so popular. And we know that Instagram surfaces things 81 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: that they think will soothe people's aduled brains as they 82 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: make them more aduled, because the world is kind of 83 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: a disaster right now, and when the world is a disaster, 84 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: people want nostalgia, even if it's a false nostalgia. And 85 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: this nostalgia for a quote unquote better time when women 86 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: work quote unquote traditional is really obscenely misplaced. 87 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it almost seems like it is painting a fantasy 88 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 3: portrait of a time that did not exist because it 89 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: you know, even for white women back in the day, 90 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: I'm not necessarily quick to say that they were so happy. 91 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: You know, it was like legal for your spouse to 92 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: rape you. 93 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: You couldn't own property, you couldn't you know, take like 94 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: have your own money, like I don't. 95 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: You couldn't have a credit, you couldn't have a credit, right, 96 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, so I mean it's most let's be honest, 97 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: it's mostly can't having a credit. It's mostly not having 98 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: a credit card. And rape, marital rape, right. 99 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: And so I think it like it harkens back in 100 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 3: a way that that paints these times as like really 101 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: rosy and yeah, it's it's like a fantasy world that 102 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 3: never even existed even during that time. 103 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly, and not to mention the fact that 104 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: it absolutely, one hundred percent never even existed in media 105 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: for black women and women of lower economic statuses and 106 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: immigrant women. So yeah, it's a completely completely false nostalgia. 107 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: And I think you hit on something interesting, which is 108 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: that these tiktoks, especially that I see that really seemed 109 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: to be trying to convince women that we've been lied 110 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 3: to into thinking that having a job and you know, 111 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: working outside of the home is empowering. It really, for 112 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: that narrative to work, you basically have to ignore non 113 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: white women. You have to basically say, like, I'm a 114 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 3: white woman talking to other white women in a world 115 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: where people who are not white, if they exist, we're 116 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: not speaking to them, We're not thinking about their experiences, 117 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: We're not interrogating. 118 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: That at all. 119 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: No, No, exactly, the whole idea of a happy woman 120 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: who enjoyed an idyllic life in the home, tending to 121 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: her family while her husband did the wage earning labor 122 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: is just kind of a fantasy. Obviously, it certainly did 123 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 3: not exist for non white women, and it kind of 124 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: didn't even really ever exist for white women either or 125 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 3: not the way. 126 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: We've been led to believe anyway. 127 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 3: In fact, Joe says, the entire happy house white thing 128 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: was a creation presented by a few specific pieces of 129 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 3: mass media that made its way into the culture and 130 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 3: just kind of stuck. 131 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole trad wife aesthetic really does come 132 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: from a very narrow sliver of nineteen fifty sitcoms. 133 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: And we are. 134 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: Talking June Cleaver talking daddy father knows best, Daddy knows best. 135 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: I mean the shows we saw on Nick at Night 136 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: as kids, really, and it was mass media telling us 137 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: that this is what the world looked like when it 138 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: didn't look like that for the majority of white women. 139 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: It never looked like that for black women, women of 140 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: a lower economic status, immigrant women, And I think, look, 141 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: we're desperate, we are desperate to cling to something because 142 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: the world isn't working right now. I don't think that 143 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: the concept of women working outside the home. I think 144 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: work has failed all of us, not just women. Work 145 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: has failed to empower us as a human race right now. 146 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: And so there is this small set of people saying, well, 147 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: what if you didn't have to work? Look at these 148 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: women who didn't have to work, These like three women 149 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: who didn't have to work in nineteen fifty four. Don't 150 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: they look so happy in their Gangham dresses with their 151 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: beach gas that they never could have really gotten in 152 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four? They do that shit with the Dyson 153 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: hand one. 154 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love your point that we're even if you're 155 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 3: thinking about math media from the fifties, the trad wife 156 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 3: stuff from that was shown there. It's only a small 157 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: like subsection of shows like Lucy Olle Ball even she 158 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: wanted to be on the show in it or be 159 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: in Ricky in Deasy's show back in the day, So 160 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: like they're not even demonstrating that, like it was a dominant, 161 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 3: you know, a dominant culture. 162 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: Never Lucy wanted to work. Lucy was messy, Lucy was 163 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I love Lucy, and I just said I 164 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: love Lucy because she was delightfully fucked up in so 165 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: many ways, and she kind of bucked the trend of 166 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: the trad wife that was on TV in so many ways. 167 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: You don't see that if you just, like, you know, 168 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: glance at one episode of the show, but she really did. 169 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: And Lucille Ball in real life was a goddamn baller. 170 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: She owned her brand, she owned her shit, she owned 171 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: her show, so that she was not a trad wife 172 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form. But just the fact 173 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: that we keep getting served this on Instagram and this 174 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: is not what I want to be seeing right now. 175 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: I want to be seeing more nap dresses and kaftans 176 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: and frankly, I'm just in the mid for some fucking 177 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: CAF memes. I don't want to see a trad. 178 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 4: Wof Let's take a quick break at our back. 179 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 3: To be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not 180 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 3: working outside of the home or finding enjoyment and the domestic. 181 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: But what can be scary are the ways. 182 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: That trad wife content can present a palatable pipeline for 183 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 3: women to be led into extremist ideology. 184 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that you make a. 185 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: Good point about the way that it's definitely being like 186 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 3: surfaced right now for whatever reason. And I think that's 187 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: what I think can be kind of almost harmful, right, 188 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: Like tread life stuff for me is like a little annoying, 189 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: a little I thought it a little bit smug, But 190 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: I know that a lot of that content can really 191 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 3: be a pipeline into like more extremist thinking. You know, 192 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 3: you are saying like, oh, well, the world was much 193 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 3: better in the fifties and the forties, when you know 194 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: people of color quote knew their place and women knew 195 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 3: their place. It's like a hop, skip and a jump 196 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 3: away from some pretty nasty extremist you know, ideology. 197 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say it's a hop, skip and a jump. 198 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: That's giving it too much credit. That's saying that it 199 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: would take us three steps to get there. And I 200 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: think we're kind of just teetering on the edge of 201 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: this dangerous territory. It also it's also for me, very 202 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: dangerous because it pits two groups of women against each other. 203 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: It pits the woman who does stay at home for 204 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: whatever reason, to take care of her children, to take 205 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: care of her home because she fucking has to, because 206 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: there's no goddamn child care in this country, against the 207 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: woman who either chooses to work because she wants to, 208 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: works because she has to. And it's setting up this 209 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: dichotomy that says, oh, like this life is better than 210 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: this life, or this woman is so different from you 211 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: that you are at odds with her, when at the 212 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: end of the day, we're all doing labor, raising children 213 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: as labor, making meals, cleaning the house, it's labor. Like 214 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: neither of these things is necessarily better than the other one. 215 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually my biggest other than the extremist ideology, 216 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: that's one of my biggest problems with this kind of 217 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: tread wife content is that it really, I think a 218 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 3: lot of times hinges on this aspect of comparison, and 219 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: that's part of it that I don't like. I think 220 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 3: there's like a smugness to it that's like I figured 221 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 3: something out that other women are too stupid or too 222 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: shallow to see. And I just feel like if people 223 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 3: like I think people should do whatever makes them happy, whatever. 224 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: They can afford to do, you know. 225 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: I also think there's a kind of in some of 226 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 3: the content, there's a kind of persecution complex, like, oh, 227 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 3: I don't want to be on Tinder or in the 228 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: office or away from my child or having my children 229 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 3: in public school, and I'm demonized for it. And I 230 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: think in twenty twenty two, I don't this is my opinion. 231 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 3: I don't necessarily see a lot of people demonizing women 232 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: who stay, who aren't working outside of the home. 233 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: I think that like, frankly, if in my opinion. 234 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: If you can, if you figured it out, how to 235 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: make that work for you, Like I'm jealous, if anything, like, 236 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 3: I think that's great. 237 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: God bless, Yeah, yeah, godless. 238 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, I think you're right. 239 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 3: It sets up this dichotomy of two different groups of women, 240 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 3: where one is better than the other, or one's choices 241 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 3: are better than the other or more real than the other. 242 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 3: And I just think it's not really a binary. Plenty 243 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 3: of people, especially parents, will work, will leave the workforce, 244 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 3: come back to the workforce. It's not this binary thing 245 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 3: where if you are able and enjoy not working outside 246 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: of the home, that is like a that innately makes 247 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 3: you better. I just think it like it. It negates 248 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 3: the reality of just like being a person who has 249 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: to make choices that are right for their lives. 250 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: Totally, totally, absolutely and also a lot of the chadwife content, 251 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: much like most of the content on Instagram, is a 252 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: glossified version of reality. And it's also a lie. You know, 253 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: a lot of these traditional wives claim that this childwife 254 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: lifestyle is about paying homage to a slower, more intentional lifestyle. 255 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,479 Speaker 1: There's nothing slow about being at home with two toddlers, 256 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: are you kidding? Like, give me my work day any 257 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: day where I'm like sitting at my computer and drinking 258 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: coffee rather than getting up every two minutes to be like, 259 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: I need's jawberrys. This water doesn't have enough ice. There's 260 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: something weird being between my toes. What the fuck? That 261 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: is not slow and intentional? That is being I say 262 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: this all the time. I love my kids, like I 263 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: really really like them. I like being a mom, and 264 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: I also don't really want to be alone one on 265 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: one with them for longer than three hours at a time. 266 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: I don't. 267 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 4: I'm not. 268 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: I think I'm exhausted. I need a break, and I 269 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: just for me striking a balance between doing meaningful work 270 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: and caring for I also don't want to come home 271 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: at night and have them already in bed, right, So 272 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: meaningful work with caregiving, I mean that's the goddamn sweet 273 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: spot for me. And I think everyone has to find 274 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: their own sweet spot. 275 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right, And I think you know 276 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: that's for at least for me, Like that's what feminism 277 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: is about, like people like women being able to make 278 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: the best choices for them and that being okay. And 279 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 3: I think, you know, every time I see one of 280 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: those tiktoks, it's like I live a slow life. Part 281 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: of me wants to be like, what part of a 282 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: slow life involves setting up a tripod? 283 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? 284 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: Like, if I'm living a slow life, I'm not like 285 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 3: a lot of the tiktoks that I see on that 286 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: are like probably involve an incredible amount of like work 287 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: to put together. And I'm like, oh, it doesn't look 288 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 3: so slow and soft to me. It actually looks like 289 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: a lot of work went into this. On top of 290 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: being around your kids, which we know is exhausting and draining. 291 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: Awful. I mean, it's just, let's be honest, a lot 292 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: of it is awful. Yeah, those beach waves, that wasn't slow. 293 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: It took a lot of work. Those eyelashes, you'll work. 294 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: You've all get fake eyelashes on. There's nothing slow and 295 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: intentional utterly, it's intentional. There's nothing slow about putting on 296 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: fake eyelash. 297 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: Oh no, it's incredibly time consuming and like, yeah, and 298 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 3: I think like that's I don't know. Part of me 299 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: wonders if like there's just something about this content that 300 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 3: is tailor made for social media and that it invites comparison, 301 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 3: and it can it is an easy way to sort 302 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: of polish up a lie. You know that, like you're 303 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: living a slow life, you're so centered and in touch 304 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 3: with your kids and YadA, YadA, YadA, But in fact 305 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 3: it can be none of that. But you're presenting this 306 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: very pretty package to women and moms, a lot of 307 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: whom are frankly at their limit. They've been doing remote learning, 308 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: they've been through this pandemic. We've gone through like tampon 309 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: shortages and baby formula shortages. 310 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 4: And no. 311 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: Meaningful institutional support or help selling continuing to sell moms 312 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 3: this polished up lie is almost kind of cruel to me. 313 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: It is cruel. It's absolutely cruel because and I think 314 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: it's just it's a very patriarchal view of the work 315 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: of motherhood, of saying, oh, look at these beautiful pictures, 316 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: of these beautiful houses. This is so easy. This is 317 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: a slower life. No, that is work. That is so 318 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: much labor. And you know, I've I've dabbled in the 319 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: domestic arts at times, and frankly, that's harder work for 320 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: me than having a dozen meetings in a day trying 321 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: to make a zucchini bread. Okay, Like it's just like 322 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: I'm not good at that. It's not innate to me. 323 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: That's not to say someone else doesn't wildly enjoy it. 324 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: And I do think that we have sidelined we've sidelined 325 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: work in the home right And the big, big, my 326 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: biggest issue is always that we just don't call things 327 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: done in the home work, but neither do the treadwives. 328 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: They're blowing off that work. They're saying this is a 329 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: slower and easier lifestyle and not recognizing that everything that 330 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: a woman does in the home is actual work. 331 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a good point that like, if 332 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 3: you are a mom or a parent who is engaging 333 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 3: in the pretty exhausting work of raising little humans, to 334 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: have someone go on social media and be like, actually, 335 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 3: this isn't labor, this isn't work. This is just something 336 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: that you know, you shouldn't that you should always enjoy, 337 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 3: that should come naturally to you as a woman. That 338 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 3: should just be really pleasing and nice and happy and 339 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 3: gentle and slow. I think a lot of parents the 340 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: work of raising a child does not feel happy or slow. 341 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 2: Or any of that. 342 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 4: And I don't. 343 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: Know, it's just another way to lie to women about 344 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 3: the work that we're all doing, that we are doing 345 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 3: in a sort of this burden that we all have, 346 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: this that we're all shouldering, and telling us that we 347 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 3: should enjoy it all the time. This is like another 348 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 3: added way that we're just not supported. 349 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: No, it's really it really is. It's another way of 350 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: putting it down and putting down the labor that we 351 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: put into a life to make a life, to raise 352 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: human I think I think that raising human beings is 353 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: one of the hardest things that I do in this 354 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: portfolio of many things that I do in our economically 355 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: precarious society. But it also it's just it remains undervalued 356 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: in the traditional wives movement. While they claim that they're 357 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: elevating it, are continuing to undervalue it by saying this 358 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: is an easier way of life. 359 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: Oh that's so true. 360 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 3: I really want to see like the seventies eighties era 361 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 3: completely checked out mom who has not seen her kids 362 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: all day, and when they come home, she's like, Oh, 363 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 3: I hope you've been bed because. 364 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: I'm not making dinner. I want that mom to come 365 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: back and de vogue. 366 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I the parenting book that I 367 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: want to write, and then no one i'll let me 368 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: write because cancel culture is a parent like it's nineteen 369 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: eighty four. Man, put them in the way back of 370 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: the car. Let's find some candy, cigarettes, right and jazz 371 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: and PLoP them in front of the TV and give 372 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: them all the sugary cereals because you know it, and smoke, 373 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: I guess smoke and drink in front of them too, 374 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: because that was my life even though I had a cigarette. 375 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: Now i'd probably die. But sometimes I still think about 376 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: it about how like wonderful would be. And I feel 377 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: like I turned out fucking green. And I was a 378 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: latchkey kid whose parents chain smoke tupacs of cools a 379 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: day in front of me. I don't have an asthma. 380 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: It's honestly so funny to see the different like I 381 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: don't want to say trends, but waves of parenting, because yeah, 382 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 3: I was parented like that. I was. I feel like 383 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 3: I was the last generation of kids whose parents were like, 384 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: go outside, I don't want to see you for several hours, 385 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 3: and like, if you did that today, you'd be arrested. 386 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: Well, it was funny. I have a story which will 387 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: probably get me arrested, and I'm I don't care anymore. 388 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: Just don't take my kids away, okay, Like I'm a 389 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: good mom. But it's pouring fucking rain yesterday at school pickup, 390 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: and my husband hates using a car because we live 391 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: in the city, until like, obviously they could drop my 392 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: chiddler off at our first day of preschool pick her 393 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: up again in the pouring rain. I'm seven months pregnant, 394 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: by the way, I'm huge, And I asked another parent 395 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: and had a car there if they could drive me 396 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: the four blocks home to drop me off and like, oh, 397 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if I have enough seats, and it 398 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: was like a massive super room, Like what is pile 399 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: onto the way back? It's four blocks. They wouldn't do it. 400 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: They're like, there's no seatbelts back there, and I was like, 401 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: but it's the way back, It's okay. 402 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: I'm like we you know. 403 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: I mean, like again, like I'm not going to do 404 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: it for like a three hour road trip with my kid, 405 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: but like we're just so afraid of everything anymore. And 406 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: I think it's it's creative and this is a whole 407 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: other episode. It's creating fucked up kids. It's creating kids 408 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: who don't know how to live in the goddamn world 409 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: as the world bringing it around us. But that's another 410 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: podcast that no one will let me do. 411 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: I had that same experience on a family trip recently 412 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 3: where my sister in law we were piled into a 413 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 3: car and she was like, I'll just hold her on 414 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 3: my lap car. 415 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: See, we're going to blots. It's fine. 416 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Again, Like I think so 417 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: many corners of the Internet are dark and terrible for women, 418 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: and the ones that are dark and the most dark 419 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: and terrible are the ones that look the prettiest. 420 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: That's such a I mean, I think you're right, because 421 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a parent, but I can imagine 422 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 3: if you're a new mom, it's scary. And then you 423 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 3: go to these social media places or spaces that are 424 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: sensibly supposed to be about support and helping you, and 425 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: they just make you feel that much more inadequate and 426 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: alone and terrified. 427 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: Terrible. I would never want to be a new mom 428 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: again and be scrolling the internet and looking at Instagram. 429 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: I'm just happy that I'm an old mom at this point, 430 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: who just going to let a third child fall out 431 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: of my body and probably sleep in the cardboard box 432 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: and I start up, but I just yeah, I don't 433 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: have time for it. But like thinking if like I 434 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: was so terrified about new motherhood, which all new moms are, 435 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: and then they see these kinds of pictures and they're like, 436 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm failing. Well, women, we think we're failing. Every day 437 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: I wake up and feel like a failure, even though 438 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: like rationally I know that I shouldn't. I write good books, 439 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: I make good podcasts, but like I still feel like 440 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: I'm failing every day. We don't need another person to 441 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: tell us that we're failing. 442 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 3: Especially not doing so under the guise of I'm telling 443 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: you this to help you. This is this is just 444 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 3: your own good that you need to know this information 445 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 3: about how much you're failing at the mom exactly exactly. 446 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I don't again like women working in the home, 447 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: raising children, doing domestic labor. Good thing. Women that say 448 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: that we women have failed by being in the workforce. Workforce, 449 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: fuck you, fuck you real hard. 450 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 4: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 451 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 3: I do have one last quick question for you. So, 452 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 3: speaking of all things throwbacky and traditional, especially for women, 453 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 3: I happen to know that you have a particular. 454 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 2: Interest in a one Miss Laura Ingles. 455 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 3: Wilder, if you don't know who that is. She was 456 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: the writer of the series Little House on the Prairie, 457 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: which became a TV show and was massively influential. Can 458 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: you tell us about that interest and where it might 459 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 3: take you next. 460 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: What a badass bitch she was? Yes, I love me 461 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: some Laur Engelswelder. I read all the books growing up, 462 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: but I'm not as much of an obsessive as my 463 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: dear friend Clinas McNichol, who co hosted under the influence 464 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: with me and who also married my husband and I 465 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 1: in front of us think seven years ago. She's like 466 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: a freak about Laura Ingleswilder, but we're both obsessed with 467 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: how this woman's real life stories of growing up on 468 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: the prairie have become the most read books, probably among 469 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: the most read books in the entire world, and also 470 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: have shaped how we view the American West. And we 471 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: are doing a new podcast called Wilder, which comes out 472 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: in March, where we spent a good chunk of this 473 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: summer traveling around the United States, going to the Laura 474 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: Ingelswilder homesteads and revisiting what her legacy means to America. 475 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: What she got wrong. You shouldn't everything right. She fucked 476 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: up a lot of stuff, like she really there's a 477 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: lot more that she could have included in those books 478 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: about what was happening in Black America at the time, 479 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: what was happening with the indigenous people whose land that 480 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: her family was constantly moving on to. She was so 481 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: ahead of her time in terms of being a wild 482 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: child who just wanted to explore the world, and those 483 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: the things we've reported out while doing this podcast have 484 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: been so fascinating. My favorite is that Laura is really 485 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: huge with Japanese tourists. Huge. She's huge in Japan. Who knew? 486 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: And it's for a couple of reasons. One, Japanese schools 487 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: often used the Little House Books to teach English. The 488 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: darker side of that, many of the internment camps forced 489 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: people to read the lore Engo's Wilder books here in America. 490 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: And then the television show was wildly popular. So these 491 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: little towns, these little very white rural towns where Laura's from, 492 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: get bust loads of Japanese tourists visiting them every year. 493 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: But to their like, the towns love it, and it 494 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: has actually opened the town's eyes to different cultures that 495 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: they ever would have experienced were it not for Laura. 496 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: And so and this is like one of the little 497 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: tidbits that that we loved while we were doing this. 498 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: And yeah, that podcast is coming out in March. I'm 499 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: also hoping to work on a podcast about Judy Bloom 500 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: and her her enduring legacy on our lives. 501 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 3: Oh my god, please, I am obsessed with Judy Blue. 502 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 3: When I was a kid, the book are you there, God, 503 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: It's me Margaret. It was we like trade. I mean 504 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: this is we used to trade it, like when I 505 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: was in like the fourth or fifth grade. It was 506 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: we thought it was like the most grown up, like 507 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: you know book about our bodies and our art the 508 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: way you know, we would like like trade it to 509 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 3: each other, like who have you read this? 510 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, and now that one and then also 511 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: Denie and Forever. I'm like, this is the dirtiest sex 512 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: I've ever read about. Yeah, great, you're gonna come on 513 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: that shell. I'm trying to get that green lit right now, 514 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: so you're coming on, and I'm going to tell everyone 515 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: that you're I'm in. 516 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 4: I'm in. 517 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 3: I cannot wait, right, Joe, thank you, thank you so 518 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,239 Speaker 3: much for being here. Where can folks keep up with 519 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 3: all the cool work that you're doing. 520 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, the fucking Instagram at Joe Piazza at Joe Piazza Author, 521 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: Like I spend all of my day's trashing Instagram and 522 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: saying how much I hate it, and then I'm like, 523 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: this is the really the easiest place to sign me, 524 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: So thank you Instagram at Joe Piazza author. It is 525 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: the easiest place. I'm gonna have this baby in like 526 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: two months, so I'm gonna I'm either gonna go dark 527 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: or I'm gonna become a traditional one. 528 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 3: Well, everyone will have to check in on your Instagram 529 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 3: to see which way it goes, which way it goes awesome. 530 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 3: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check 531 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: out our mark store at tegodi dot com, slash Store. 532 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 3: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 533 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 3: just want to say hi, you can be Just said 534 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 3: Hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts 535 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 3: for today's episode at tengodi dot com. There Are No 536 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: Girls on the Internet was created by me forge d. 537 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 3: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by 538 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Terry Harrison 539 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 3: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada is our 540 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 3: contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you want 541 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 3: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. 542 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 543 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.