1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. One reason social media gets out of 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: control so quickly is we we don't feel like we're 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: using our voices. You know, we're talking through our fingers, 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: and that's a different thing. Of course, it hurts my feelings. 6 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: Anytime somebody attacks you, it hurts your feelings. But when 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: my feelings are it is generally, I think, because there's 8 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: some truth to it all. Technology, in my opinion, has 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: the potential to sort of create these uh real frictions 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: in our society. I mean, birth of a nation came 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: through movie. Right. It is nearly impossible, at least in 12 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: my experience, to make a point on social media that 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: requires any level of nuance. If you don't see social 14 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: media as a blunt instrument, you are quickly going to 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: be trolled, ratioed, misinterpreted, and just knocked out of the game. 16 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: So as much as we say, oh, the platforms to 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: get your voice out there are stronger and better than ever, 18 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: depends on what that voices and what you want to say, 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: the image you create for yourself, the profile, the category 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: you fit into, your boxed in and if you dare 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,639 Speaker 1: try to be an actual person, a human, change your tone, 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: have a different voice. Well, that tribe that you're in 23 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: in that social media bucket now thinks you've abandoned them. 24 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: So my challenges. If social media is where we can 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: actually be our real selves and connect over that, maybe 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: we need to treat it in a little bit of 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: a different way. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules. In this season 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: of Modern Rules, I'm going to be spending time unpacking 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,639 Speaker 1: the harriest conversations from privilege to political correctness to try 31 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: and figure out how we can navigate this changing world 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: and arek through to actually talk with and learn from 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: the people who disagree with us and maybe just maybe 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: learn something along the way. Together on Modern Rules, we 35 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: are going to get into navigating the very tricky and 36 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: sometimes treacherous waters of social media with my guests comedian 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: Michael Ian Black, Sarah Holland and Beth Silver's of the 38 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: podcast pant Suit Politics, and digital activists Rashad Robinson. My 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: first guest, Michael Ian Black is a funny, compassionate, thoughtful 40 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: human being. Okay, I think all the time that social 41 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: media is the worst place ever because it's where you 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: get your head kicked in by trolls. But to that 43 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: exact point, before social media existed, the biggest most powerful 44 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: institutions the church, media, corporate America. They were impenetrable. You 45 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: could not touch them. But now because of social media, 46 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: every tiny little voice can get out there and they 47 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: throw a hashtag, and I could complain going, oh my god, 48 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: I can't believe all of these people just they put 49 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: a hashtag on it, and and now they've said I'm 50 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: racially insensitive. I mean I do. I do see a 51 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: lot of the positive and social media, and I've been 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of a ton of the negative 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: aspect of it. I will say for my own like 54 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: just personal growth, when I am less defensive, there are 55 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: things that occur on social media, criticisms of me, insults 56 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: towards me, trolling at me that ends up having a 57 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: positive effect my master hurt your feelings, of course, it 58 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: hurts my feelings. Anytime somebody attacks you, it hurts your feelings. 59 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: But when my feelings are hurt, it is generally I think, 60 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: because there's some truth to it. If there's no truth 61 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: to it, why would it affect me one way or 62 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: the other, wouldn't. But if but if something is hurting me, 63 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: it's because it's touching some nerve that I need to 64 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: look at and deal with it accordingly. I mean, if 65 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: you insult my career, for example, and tell you're just 66 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: a washed up actor, if that hurts me, it's because 67 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: some of me suspects, oh yeah, that might be true. 68 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: But if you say to me, you know, what you 69 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: said is racist or whatever, and I react with indignity 70 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: or defensiveness or insult, I may have to look at 71 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: that a little more closely and ask what what did 72 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: I say that prompted that? And at the very least, 73 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: if I can examine that and look at it and 74 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: come to a conclusion about it, that's more work than 75 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: I would have done otherwise. It's funny to say that 76 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: when Fox News does segments on me at night, it's 77 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 1: but here's the thing. Whenever they do it, there's always 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: a little bit of truth that they're right. Whenever they 79 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: do it, it's on like a Thursday or a Friday, 80 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: when chances are I was tired, I was a little 81 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: lazy that day. I was you know, I was sloppy 82 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: in my commentary, I went too far and so like 83 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: a lot of what they do is exaggerated and wrong. 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: But at the heart of it, I kind of did 85 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: screw up that day that part of it. They are 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: kind of striking a chord. I think forgiveness and grace 87 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: is something we really need to bring back in a 88 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: bigger way because we are in this cancel culture. I 89 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: did defend zzon sorry last year, and I said, hold 90 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: on a second. They were on a really bad date. 91 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: And there may be lots of microaggressions and in ways 92 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: that women think they have to behave in order to 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: get men to like them, but that's far different from 94 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: something else. I saw you this year try to give 95 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: some grace and space to Louis c K and you 96 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: were annihilated. How did it make you feel horrible? Horrible 97 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. It started with exactly what 98 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: this conversation started with, which is people in private I'm 99 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: including when I say people, I mean me and others, 100 00:05:54,520 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: people that I would have conversations with talking about new wants, misinterpretation, misunderstanding, miscommunication, 101 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: and how those things can spiral out of control and 102 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: turn into something that they were never meant to be, 103 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: and I got on Twitter also a friend of mine 104 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: had had had just died, and I was thinking a 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: lot about exactly that grace and forgiveness, and I was 106 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: in a kind of sensitive headspace as well, and I 107 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: was feeling like, those private conversations that I have with 108 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: people where they're willing to sort of give that space 109 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: and forgiveness and grace to somebody, can that private conversation 110 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: be had in a public forum? And so I tried 111 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: and the answer was no. I felt bad because I 112 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: mistakenly thought that I had a little credibility in this 113 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: arena because I've been so outspoken in favor of women 114 00:06:54,800 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: and survivors and LGBT stuff like like just a ton 115 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: of like just progressive issues, like I've been very got 116 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: some progressive I hoped, And I was hoping that in 117 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: trying to have this conversation not in defense of Louis 118 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,559 Speaker 1: specifically and and and not saying like I was rooting 119 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: for Louis specifically to recover, but saying that I'm interested 120 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: in the idea of how men recover from this, and 121 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: using him as an example, I was hoping I could 122 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: be a little bit of a buffer between those two Camps. 123 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: It turns out I could not, and that was okay, 124 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: But Michael, it's not okay. Well, it was okay in 125 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: the sense that I think I did have a blind 126 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: spot for Louis specifically because I know him. I don't 127 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: know him well, we've known each other over the years, 128 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: and maybe I had a blind spot for him specifically 129 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 1: because I felt like I maybe had an insight into 130 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: his intentions that other people wouldn't have. But you also 131 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: have right to say this is my experience with this person, 132 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: right I do. But in the end, I felt like 133 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: the women who criticized me were entirely valid in their 134 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: criticisms that I hadn't been. I'm a little distant from 135 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: the event, so I saw. I don't want to mischaracterize 136 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: what their criticisms were. What I'm trying to say to 137 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: you is whatever points you made on Twitter, had you 138 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: made it in a private setting, you would have been 139 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: able to because everyone at the table understands your good 140 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: intentions and they know who you are. And my concern is, 141 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: even not just even specifically within progressives, you should have 142 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: some street credibility. Yet you got annihilated. And I'm saying 143 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: Michael was trying to say, let's find a little bit 144 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: of space here, and people decapitated you like your Biff 145 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: from Back to the Future, and it worries me that 146 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: we're not giving each other that space. Yes, I felt 147 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: all of that, but at the same time, I have 148 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: to ask myself, like, do I grant Mike Huckabee, for example, 149 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: the same good intentions that you're granting me in the 150 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: innswerration because it's about track record. True, Mike Huckaby doesn't 151 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: have the track record because of what he said, well, 152 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of um what you're asking for, 153 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: and what I agree with fundamentally is we have to 154 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: look at people's intentions and we have to give people 155 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt that in the end they're 156 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: trying to do the right thing. Do you and I'm 157 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: asking myself, do I extend that same courtesy to the 158 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: people that I v am ely disagree with just on 159 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: a kind of day to day policy point of view, 160 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: And the answer is no, I don't. We're going to 161 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: be right back after a quick break, Welcome back to 162 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: modern Rules. My next guests are the hosts of pant 163 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: Suit Politics and authors. I think you're wrong, but I'm 164 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: listening Sarah Holland and Beth Silver's. These ladies are deep 165 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: believers in the value of voices, real conversations, nuance, and 166 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: they've got a very interesting take on how social media 167 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: should work and how it actually works. I was caught 168 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: in a tweet storm, so my producer Sam Lynn stepped 169 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: in and did this interview. A lot of strangers online 170 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: do not feel like they need to tread carefully with someone. 171 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: In fact, I would dare to say that they're emboldened 172 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: by the distance. What is the dicks there? If there 173 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: is one? Is it just social media should be avoided. 174 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: I think that using our voices is really important, and 175 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: I think that one reason social media gets out of 176 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: control so quickly is we we don't feel like we're 177 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: using our voices, you know, we're talking through our fingers, 178 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: and that's a different thing. Now. That said, I don't 179 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: think social media is the cause of where we are today. 180 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: I think it's a manifestation of where we are today. 181 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: I think it erodes it further, you know, but I 182 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: think it also has the pretend shall to help us. 183 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: We have some really wonderful conversations with listeners of our 184 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: podcast online. My life is better because of the people 185 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: who listen to our show, who engage with us on Twitter. 186 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: That's an odd thing to say, you know, my life 187 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: is better in any way because of Twitter, But it's 188 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: because people show up with a set of rules. They 189 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: come in in a container, right, they understand what we're 190 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: trying to do and what we're trying to think about 191 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: and the way we do it. And when someone sort 192 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: of violates the what they understand to be the rules 193 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: of our house, another listener comes in and and very 194 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: gently and respectfully calls them out on it. We get 195 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: the beauty of seeing Internet apologies sometimes where people mess 196 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: up and and start again. And I think that everybody 197 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: feels pretty safe to do that in our container because 198 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: we do it all the time. We very publicly say gosh, 199 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: I really messed up on this. I use this word 200 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: that was a hurtful word. I didn't know. Now I know, Horey, 201 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: I've learned something. Thank you for teaching me. It's just 202 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: a different way. That's interesting because rules might be a 203 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: big help when it comes to this. It feels like 204 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: there are a lot of rules on Facebook, and I 205 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: think the container is key. I think that where we're 206 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: going with social media, and you even see this in 207 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: the statements coming out of places like Facebook, is that 208 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: it's going to be less totally public facing and more 209 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: honestly how the Internet started, which was communities gathered around 210 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: a certain mission or a certain topic, or a certain 211 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: shared identity that they couldn't find a lot of people 212 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: that shared that identity where they were in the physical space, 213 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: and the Internet gave them the way to gather more 214 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: of those people together. I think we're going back that way, 215 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: which I think is really good. I mean, I think 216 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: the other really important aspect of social media when you're 217 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: talking about politics and and conversation surrounding politics, is that 218 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: it's become the way in which people get their news, 219 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: and that is really problematic. Using an algorithm that rewards emotion, 220 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: especially anger and fear, um and any strong reactions to 221 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: news stories to decide what we see first, um, that's 222 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: a problem. And I think that's that's something I have 223 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: to even remind myself of. I'm not going to tell 224 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: you I don't get any news from social media. That 225 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: would be a lie, um, but I have to be 226 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: really careful not only to make sure that those aren't 227 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: that's not my primary news source. But when those stories 228 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: that really you know, succeed under the algorithm that are 229 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: driven by anger on either side, both sides are conflict. 230 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: Just reminding myself this is not the entire story of 231 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: this particular moment of of our human race, of our country. UM. 232 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: But that's really hard to do, UM. Social media. Getting 233 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,239 Speaker 1: your news from an algorithm like that does not reward perspective, 234 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: doesn't reward sort of careful thinking or taking a pause, UM, 235 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: which we really really need. And I mean, I think 236 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: that that part is really an accelerant on the polarization 237 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: and the conflict in the way that we are engaging 238 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: with each other right now. Do you feel that you 239 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: see the kind of bad behavior that we see on 240 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: social media spill out into the real world and interactions 241 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: that you have with people. Did you see like a 242 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: change As a former public official. Absolutely. I ran for 243 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: the first time in my city commission race UM in 244 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen. It was a very friendly race 245 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: among among the field. It's a nonpartisan UM right choice 246 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: kind of vote. You don't rank them, but you only 247 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: you you vote four times in the top four get in, 248 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: So it's not a winner take all kind of situation, 249 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: and it was a totally different feel than by the 250 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: time I ran for re election in two thousand and eighteen, 251 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: where I lost. I mean, I live in Kentucky. I 252 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: live in a conservative state, and people were doing things 253 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: that we had never seen in Paduca, like taking my 254 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: yard signs and spray painting a red a red circle 255 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: and I mean, I'm a city commissioner and displaying it 256 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: proudly in their front yards. I mean, these were like 257 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: city leaders, like people in a professional class of people 258 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: doing this kind of stuff. You would never see that. 259 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: And I ran with the city commissioner who had been 260 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: in there for a long time, and she was like, 261 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like this. Like the tenor changed 262 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: and you can imagine why, right. I think the worst 263 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: thing about social media right now are the prompts to 264 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: re act to everything. We just don't need to react 265 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: to everything and give everything of thumbs up or thumbs 266 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: down or you know, whatever range of emoji someone is 267 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: offering there's only four options or something. You know, when 268 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: you go on there, well, and it keeps you in 269 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: this reactive posture instead of remembering that we're supposed to 270 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: contribute to things. You know, not everything is just out 271 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: here for us to say, here's how I feel about that, 272 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: and I take it and leave it that way, and 273 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: it's either canceled or it's the best thing ever. You know, 274 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: we're supposed to be contributing in a city commission race 275 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: people should be contributing to that dialogue. What would it 276 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: be like if that neighbor who took the initiative to 277 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: spray paint a sign instead said here are my questions, 278 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: here are the things that concern me about what's going 279 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: on my local government. And that's how I treat news 280 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: on social media too. I get a lot of news 281 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: from social media, but I don't view social media as 282 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: the answer. I view it as a question. A story 283 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: of surfacing on Twitter. I try to think, what questions 284 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: do I have about this story, and then I go 285 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: find answers to those questions in place that is that 286 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: I know have been carefully vetted, where people are doing 287 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: work to make sure that that what's being circulated is true. 288 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's just a different orientation and an 289 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: orientation that could be helpful to other people. You know, 290 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: if we if we stop just thinking the sum of 291 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: life is right here for me to react to what's 292 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: my role in this? Just hold on a second because 293 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: we have so much more to get into. We'll be 294 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: back right after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. 295 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: Sean Robinson knows from experience how the power of social 296 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: media can activate policy, can actually create change. His organization, 297 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: Color of Change, uses online resources, most specifically social media, 298 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: to advocate for policies that affect the African American community 299 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: to strengthen their political voice. And you know, when it 300 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: comes to positions of power in politics and in business, 301 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: there are not a out of African American voices in 302 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: the boardroom, and his organization has been able to use 303 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: social media to knock down that boardroom door. Twitter is 304 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: an extraordinary vehicle for what you do. I worry that 305 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: Twitter is the worst of all worlds. Right. Twitter has 306 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: is performance. Our Twitter decides this is what your profile 307 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: and your character is. And if you say anything that 308 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: deviates from this specific role, and none of us are flat, 309 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: we are multidimensional people. If you say anything that possibly 310 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: deviates from it, you will get annihilated. All technology, in 311 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: my opinion, has the potential to sort of create these 312 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: uh real frictions in our society. I mean birth of 313 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: a nation came through movie right, So many of the 314 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: harmful images about various communities, people of color, women have 315 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: come through our TV screen. The ways in which our 316 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: telephones were used to surveil civil rights activists from Dr 317 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: King to alcome X, in the ways that television are 318 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: even used now to create scams on vulnerable people. And 319 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: so all technology has real potential to cause great harm 320 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: and in many ways has allowed us to supercharge our 321 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: ability to move people to action, to create real change. 322 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: And so I am not one of those people that 323 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: says technology in and of itself, you know it will 324 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: supercharge our ability to make change. I think that there 325 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: are deep challenges and deep problems with platforms and algorithms 326 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: that incentivize the type of harassment, the type of hatred 327 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: that you are rewarded for being the villain. And at 328 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: the same time, these platforms have allowed for marginalized people 329 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: to bypass traditional gatekeepers, to not have to wait to 330 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: hear their voices heard. I remember when I was working 331 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: for GLAD and doing work in the LGBT community, and 332 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: you had mothers who lesbian mothers who were blogging and 333 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: sharing their stories, and you know, you know, a year later, 334 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: you'd start seeing them actually on TV sharing their stories 335 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: and reaching more people. And so the ability for people 336 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: to reach the marketplace of ideas um can be incredibly 337 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: hard if we don't have vehicles for that. But just 338 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: like all technology, when it goes from being the insurgent 339 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: to being the incumbent, it has in itself bakes in inequality, 340 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: and it has to be our responsibility to not just 341 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: find ways to get more followers as a civil rights organization, 342 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: to get more people to follow us, but to also 343 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: ensure that those platforms are doing all that they can do. 344 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: Is why we actually run campaigns the whole Facebook accountable 345 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: for how their algorithms work. We've you know, been in 346 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: deep back and forth with Cheryl Sandberg directly around everything 347 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: from how police can get inside of Facebook outside of warrants, 348 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: to how folks can market housing to only white people 349 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: and avoid civil rights law. I do not think that 350 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: anyone should think that technology and of itself is solely 351 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: a force for good. But I do understand that in 352 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when people are on their 353 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: roofs and they want something to do, being able to 354 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 1: give people a lifeline to move not just to donate 355 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: to the Red Cross, but to work for systemic change 356 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: when folks were in flint and suffering that pain, to 357 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: not just get water bottles to them, but to fight 358 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: for how we can actually change the structures that put 359 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: people in harm's way. So how is it do you 360 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: think that we've gotten here? I know that extreme activism 361 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: on both sides is very loud and powerful, but do 362 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: re risk taking the whole majority in the middle and 363 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: kind of labeling them and pushing them out of a 364 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: really important conversation when at the end of the day, 365 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: most people are trying to take care of their families 366 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: and live their best lives. I absolutely do believe that 367 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: most people every single day are just trying to make 368 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: sure they have enough resources they need to get the 369 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: things that they need. And at the same time, we 370 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: have deep imbalance with whose voices are actually heard, with 371 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: how are whether it's our government or whether it's our 372 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: media platforms, or whether it's college admissions processes, who actually 373 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: has the ability to be heard and contended with, And 374 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: those deep imbalances create the fault lines in our democracy 375 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: that perpetuate and create sort of an ongoing cycle where 376 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: where people start off is where they end and so 377 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: where big polling may tell us that we are kind 378 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 1: of on the same page, what it doesn't oftentimes tell 379 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: us is all those buckets of places where people are 380 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: just really being left out. Is there empirical data that 381 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: shows when you do more than praise a company. We 382 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: know when you go after a company, we know when 383 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: a social media boycott is coming that company could be 384 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: in trouble because many of those companies are consumer product companies. 385 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: When the consumer says I'm not buying your product because 386 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: of you not taking a position on this social issue 387 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: or taking the wrong position. But is their data on 388 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: the other side, when companies do step up and do 389 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: the right thing, where those same activist groups are then 390 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: rewarding them with business. I think that LGBT movement is 391 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 1: a perfect example of you know, equality indexes from HRC 392 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: and and media index from GLAD serving as road maps 393 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: for corporations to get graded to want to move up 394 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: the ladder and then and then get rewarded publicly as 395 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: a result, but more than a more than an award. 396 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: I think about Dick Sporting Goods. Dick Sporting Goods took 397 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: a huge risk and said we are not going to 398 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: sell some assault rifles after the Parkland shooting, and then 399 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: they took a four percent hit in sales, and I wondered, 400 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: where were all those activist groups demanding that they stopped 401 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 1: selling those guns. Why weren't they buying their sneakers there? 402 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: Maybe me, some of them were, and maybe some of 403 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: them decided to go there. And you know, I fundamentally 404 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: believe that companies, over time, um stay in the marketplace 405 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: because they do make tough decisions and they move even 406 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,959 Speaker 1: when they're not gonna make money. There's all sorts of 407 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: stories from the civil rights movement of companies that took 408 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: risk early on. And you know, this is a company 409 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 1: that we've actually campaigned against a lot in Coca Cola 410 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: at Color of Change. But you know, there's the kind 411 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: of legendary story of when Dr King came back from 412 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: getting his Nobel Peace Prize and none of the local 413 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: business leaders would show up to a dinner in his 414 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: honor in Atlanta, and the CEO and chairman of Coca Cola, 415 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: you know, went out and forced people to have to 416 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: show up to this dinner and show up to like celebrate. 417 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: It didn't mean that there weren't other reasons the whole 418 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: these companies accountable. I think that we can do both. 419 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: The know we in an advocate our advocacy work. Over 420 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: the last couple of years with Airbnb, we have been 421 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: in deep back and forth with Airbnb. I think I 422 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: might even have a staffer who you know, at their 423 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: offices right now working working with them. And we have 424 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: been pushing them on all the ways that their algorithm 425 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: was sort of incentivizing discrimination. And more than any other 426 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: company in Silicon Value, in my opinion, they put real 427 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: resources behind doing the right thing. They actually hired engineers 428 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: and do the right thing. Doing the right thing. They 429 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: saw that there was a problem where people were trying 430 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: to book rooms and they were being denied for being black. 431 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: They didn't just hire a chief diversity officer who didn't 432 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: understand the platform. They hired engineers who understood that it 433 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: was in baked into algorithms that they needed sort of 434 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: They needed to be able to have systems to be 435 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: able to find when discrimination hit and then to hold 436 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: individual um renters accountable for that and create syst them 437 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: to stop that from happening. They went ahead and they didn't. 438 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: Now we still mentioned to Airbnb and we still campaign 439 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: to Airbnb about other aspects of problems that we have. 440 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: But when anyone asked me about still Alicon Valley company 441 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: that took a problem that we were pushing on and 442 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: went forward to do the right thing, I mentioned them. 443 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: And I do believe that we as advocates have to 444 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. 445 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: I have to be able to say we we made 446 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: this demand. Not only did you nite show up. You 447 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: didn't try to buy a table at my dinner or 448 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: make a donation. You like, put real resources behind this 449 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: that could have made you lose some money. You hired expensive, 450 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: expensive capacity behind fixing the problem, and I'm gonna hold 451 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: that up. Is that why you see so much more 452 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: optimism or beauty in all of these social media platforms 453 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: or media outlets because they have given a space patrolls, 454 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: but they've given a place for every possible voice out there. 455 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: They've allowed us to write our own stories and ways 456 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: that we previously couldn't And in the earlier days of 457 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: social media, they allowed us to get that out there 458 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: in ways that that helped us reach people we previously 459 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 1: couldn't reach. I mean when you said earlier we've been 460 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: dealing directly with Cheryl Samberg. That's amazing to me. Anyone 461 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: in media who's ever dealt with Facebook knows she has 462 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: a fortress of pr around her that no one can 463 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: ever come near, but of color of change in force 464 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: shows up and says no more, she's gonna take your call. 465 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: She's gonna take our call. We've sat with her face 466 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: to face, we have multiple calls with her. We are 467 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: building ways we are and we are holding them accountable. 468 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: Right Like part of it was demanding that they do 469 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: a civil rights on it and getting them to start publishing. 470 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: Where they are at with it, They're going to have 471 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: to produce another civil rights audit in June. I know 472 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: that that is because of people power behind us. And 473 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: so the next piece of the civil Rights art it 474 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: comes out in June. And in each phase, what we 475 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: are holding them accountable to is the changes that they 476 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: and the demands that we have made. And and so 477 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, Cheryl Sandberg, whether it's you know 478 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: in the last administration, you know, meetings directly with the president, 479 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: this is for us. This is not about like, oh, 480 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: who can we sit across the table from It's about 481 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: like what are the levels we need to pull to 482 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: actually make change. How do we capture the voices of 483 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: many people and collectively make them more powerful so that 484 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: those folks that have the ability to make the decision 485 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: that impact people's lives recognize that there's opportunity for doing 486 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: the right thing and there's consequences for not. Is there 487 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: a scenario where something has happened, a CEO of company 488 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: has done something and color of change? Your first course 489 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: of action was we're taking a Twitter and we're saying no. 490 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: Is there an example where a CEO picked up the 491 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: phone and called you and said sit with me. I 492 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: would say that nine times out of ten before we 493 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: go out publicly, we pick up the phone and we 494 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: call explain this to me, because I don't think people 495 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: realize that. What people what I think what people see 496 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: oftentimes is a CEO says something he has I say he, 497 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: because it's usually he. He has a misstep, maybe it's 498 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: even an exaggerated misquote. And I think a lot of 499 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: people think, well, the activist trained starts up and in 500 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: a blink of an eye there's a Twitter boycott with 501 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: thousands of people behind it, and the next thing you 502 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: know that company has run over. That's not actually the 503 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: way it works. Yeah, I mean, actually that's that's from 504 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: a pr perspective. You don't create the incentive for people 505 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: to move and do the right thing if you don't 506 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: deeply understand like what the structures are inside, and that 507 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: you don't give people sort of a choice point. There's 508 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: a choice point, like you can move with us and 509 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: do the right thing, or you can do the wrong thing. 510 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: An example of this is right in the Act. We 511 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: had been going back and forth for for months with 512 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: credit card companies who were processing fees for white nationalists. Um, 513 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: like you could go on some of the biggest white 514 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: nationalists organizations and put your credit card number of PayPal 515 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: number in and by paraphernal, your sponsor busses for them. 516 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: And we had spent months going back and forth and 517 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: they would say you got to go talk to the banks, 518 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: and the banks would say you gotta go to talk 519 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: to the credit card company, and like they were giving 520 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: us to run around it. So what we ended up 521 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: doing we were like we started building out a platform 522 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 1: called no Blood Money while we were going back and 523 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: forth with them. Social media and technology email allowed us 524 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: to do that, right, and We also started engaging our 525 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: members without calling out the companies, trying to give them 526 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: the ability Charlotte will happen. The president says, there are 527 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: two sides. When my staff goes in that weekend, finishes 528 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: up the website, and we then sort of give the 529 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: companies like twenty four hours, we're like, here's everything we're 530 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: about to send, and you know, PayPal before we could 531 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: get out the door said okay, we get it. Here's 532 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: the thirty white nationalist groups we are going to be 533 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: eliminating from our platform. We will no longer process fees 534 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: for and some other groups. We had to go out 535 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: publicly on Visa Massacred, but then they came around and 536 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: they started listing, and in the process we were doing 537 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: the number of things. We were running geo targeted ads 538 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: to the companies on Facebook and Google, to the employees 539 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: and asking employees of all races of good conscious You 540 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: saw what happened in Charlottesville. You are outrage. It's not 541 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: enough to be just on Twitter. Your company is allowing 542 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: these organizations to pay for their buses. So here's what 543 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: I heard. I'm not alone. I have faced my fair 544 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: share of social media outrage and the hardest part about 545 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: it for me is feeling like I been punished for 546 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: stepping outside a box that I never actually asked to 547 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: be in, and in this political climate that we're in, 548 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: it paints issues as these black and white moral absolutes. 549 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: It's nuance that I'm actually trying for. But here's the thing. 550 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: Social media is just not the place where that's going 551 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: to happen. And I'm not the only one experiencing it. 552 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: But here's what else I heard. It is impossible to 553 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: ignore the positive power of these platforms when it comes 554 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: to giving people who just a few years ago would 555 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: never have had a voice a platform. That is a 556 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: very good thing. So nobody's putting Twitter back in the bottle. 557 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: Social media is here to stay. The impact of it 558 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 1: is massive. So what am I gonna do. I'm going 559 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: to be more responsible on my own social media Baby 560 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: sarcasm and Twitter aren't partners, But I'm also going to 561 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: give some other people a break. This is when our 562 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: conversation on social medidia Thanks for listening, bringing an open mind, 563 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: and helping me create the modern rules. That's it for 564 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very 565 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen. 566 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen and Anne Bark, Audio, 567 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: Michael Biett for booking and wrangling, the amazing guests who 568 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill plaques, Michael 569 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks 570 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: to Steve lick Tige, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo, 571 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: Holly traz, Nikki Etre, and Christina Everett. Our executive producers 572 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door and of course 573 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: the men who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO 574 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: of I Heart Media Bob Pittman, and Chairman of NBC 575 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: News Andy Lack. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 576 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 577 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,