Speaker 1: Pushkin. When Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, died, she inherited
Speaker 1: their duplex on Broadbeach in Malibu. She and her kids,
Speaker 1: Kim and Doug, lived in one half, and in early
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six she rented out the other half to
Speaker 1: her friends Patty and John Lyttel and their two kids.
Speaker 1: Patty soon met Jean Rayler. The three of them, Patty, Verna,
Speaker 1: and Jean all had kids around the same age, so
Speaker 1: they started spending a lot of time together. On October fifteenth,
Speaker 1: the day Jean went into a coma, Patty had spent
Speaker 1: the day at home babysitting Fred and Jean's younger daughter.
Speaker 1: Patty didn't find out that Jeanne was in the hospital
Speaker 1: until the next morning. Here she is telling the story
Speaker 1: to an investigator while on break from her job at
Speaker 1: the bank. Want to get my hair done that day,
Speaker 1: and Vernon came running out of her side of the house,
Speaker 1: you know, just hysterical and told me what had happened. Yeah.
Speaker 1: After Jean's memorial service, Patty and Verna went to a
Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant Inventura called the Red Onion. As they sat
Speaker 1: there trying to process everything that had just happened, their vibrant,
Speaker 1: confident friend dead at thirty four. Under such ambiguous and
Speaker 1: bizarre circumstances, they allowed themselves to think the unthinkable. What
Speaker 1: if Fred had murdered her? Verna had made such a
Speaker 1: big deal, you know, after Jeane died, she'd speculated, we
Speaker 1: both speculated whether he appealed her then, I remember, because
Speaker 1: they were seeing it from the red Onion invented her
Speaker 1: at the funeral and we had sat there getting drinks
Speaker 1: redon numerous times, getting drunk because whither he janit or not.
Speaker 1: But whatever Verna thought at the time of Jean's memorial,
Speaker 1: she soon changed her mind because Verna had fallen for Fred.
Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills Episode five.
Speaker 1: Who would You Take? Verna Johnson worked at the preschool
Speaker 1: where Fred and Jean sent their older daughter, Heidi. It
Speaker 1: was part of Malibu Methodist Church. Fred remembers how his
Speaker 1: first wife, Jean, befriended Verna, the woman who would become
Speaker 1: his second wife. She had actually found Verna at the
Speaker 1: nursery school, and Verna said that she would babysit the kids.
Speaker 1: Jean was a little bit older than Verna, more worldly
Speaker 1: and ambitious. She'd been to college where she studied music
Speaker 1: and had a busy career as a flight attendant. Verna
Speaker 1: went to beauty school and then was a housewife before
Speaker 1: she started at the preschool where she sent her kids.
Speaker 1: But they related, Jean and Verna just seemed to get
Speaker 1: along well. They'd go to concerts together and share a
Speaker 1: glass of wine when Jean would pick up Hidie and
Speaker 1: Kirsten from Verna's house on Broadbeach. It was definitely more
Speaker 1: the women's connection. Fred says he really only knew Verna
Speaker 1: casually from the occasional drop off her pickup on the
Speaker 1: way to and from his job up the coast at
Speaker 1: Point Magoo. Jean and Verna were friends, and the kids
Speaker 1: were all friends, but the husbands, Fred and Bill hadn't
Speaker 1: spent much time together. Bill he had raced sports cars
Speaker 1: for a while. He had built a little Porsche speech Jurgle,
Speaker 1: and he had a helmet and gloves, and the kids
Speaker 1: used to enjoy putting them on and running around the
Speaker 1: house at his place. And I think at the time
Speaker 1: I had tried hang gliding, and he actually thought that
Speaker 1: that might be something that he was interested in. But
Speaker 1: before they had a chance to get to know each other.
Speaker 1: Bill fell from the building where he was working and died.
Speaker 1: It was December first, nineteen seventy five. It was a
Speaker 1: hell of a a surprise to everybody. We were all shocked
Speaker 1: that Bill had died. No one knew that he had
Speaker 1: taken his life. It just seemed like it was you know,
Speaker 1: he had fallen from a high rise, and since he
Speaker 1: was an electrician who built and wired high rises, no
Speaker 1: one and I was suspected that it had been a suicide.
Speaker 1: Of course, Jeane stopped taking the kids down there because
Speaker 1: Verna was really quite upset after Bill's death. Jeane reached
Speaker 1: out to Verna, asking her to come to dinner at
Speaker 1: the house on Calpine. Fred said it was the first
Speaker 1: time he'd spent more than fifteen minutes in Verna's company.
Speaker 1: Jean said, I've invited Vernon and her mother and the
Speaker 1: kids up for dinner, and I said, oh, that's terrific.
Speaker 1: So it went very well. They came to our house
Speaker 1: and that was the first time I had met Camelia,
Speaker 1: Verna's mother, And of course we didn't talk about still
Speaker 1: or the death or thing, just more about the kids
Speaker 1: and school and things like that. The kids got along fine,
Speaker 1: and the adults got into some wine and felt a
Speaker 1: little better. Eventually. Fred says he'd learned more about Bell
Speaker 1: later on after we married, well actually before we married.
Speaker 1: She told me he had been dealing with bipolar or
Speaker 1: in some very heavy issues. Either the medication wasn't enough,
Speaker 1: or you know, something was going on. But I mean,
Speaker 1: Verna was literally the perfect wife. She was sweet, she
Speaker 1: was beautiful, she was all those things. Once Bill was
Speaker 1: gone and Jean was gone, Verna would become his perfect
Speaker 1: wife for a little while. Anyway. Several months after Bill died,
Speaker 1: Verna had started dating a bit, and in the summer
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy six she was seeing a local swim instructor.
Speaker 1: He was actually teaching her kids and the Railer kids
Speaker 1: to swim in the pool at the Kalpine House. That
Speaker 1: was the summer Fred was in Hawaii and he and
Speaker 1: Jean were falling apart, but by fall Vernon was single again,
Speaker 1: and when Jean died in late October, she was willing
Speaker 1: to help out Fred newly widowed himself, so on October thirty, first,
Speaker 1: ten days after Jean was taken off the respirator, Vernon
Speaker 1: and Fred decided to go trick or treating together with
Speaker 1: the kids. And then probably the first time we did
Speaker 1: anything together was for Halloween. Patty Lightel and her two
Speaker 1: children and Vernon and her two children came up and
Speaker 1: the three of us decorated all the kids because Heidi
Speaker 1: wanted to be an angel, and that was pretty heavy.
Speaker 1: Her mother had died ten days earlier. She wanted to
Speaker 1: be an angel like her mom. And so we did
Speaker 1: a trick or treating thing with all the kids, and
Speaker 1: that's basically how things get started. That's the moment Fred
Speaker 1: marks as the beginning of his life with Verna. To recap,
Speaker 1: Bill dies on December first, nineteen seventy five, Verna, the
Speaker 1: babysitter and friend of Jean, comes over for dinner at
Speaker 1: the Coalpine House. Jean falls into a coma on October fifteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, and dies on October twenty first. Just
Speaker 1: days afterward, Patty recalls Verna speculates that Fred could have
Speaker 1: killed Jean. But then on Halloween, Verna and Fred take
Speaker 1: their kids trick or treating, and soon she's taking care
Speaker 1: of his kids again. And then Fred and Verna are
Speaker 1: the ones sharing a glass of wine together. The way
Speaker 1: Fred tells it, it made all the sense in the world.
Speaker 1: We did start doing more things. We were we were
Speaker 1: waiting dinners, so I would fixed center for Vernon and
Speaker 1: her children and obviously my two at my house, and
Speaker 1: then a day or so later, Vernon would have us
Speaker 1: down to her place for dinner, and we bounced that
Speaker 1: back and forth. They were too recently bereaved adults with
Speaker 1: four little kids between them. Well, the interesting thing is
Speaker 1: the kids basically sort of sent something before I really did.
Speaker 1: I was still sort of stunned, and the kids would
Speaker 1: be all four of them would be together, and then
Speaker 1: they actually said at one point, you know, why don't
Speaker 1: YouTube get together, or something to that effect, and we
Speaker 1: sort of laughed it off. But I think I think
Speaker 1: Heidi and Kirsen and Kimberly still remember that. Actually they
Speaker 1: don't remember I asked them. But this has always been
Speaker 1: part of the crew creation myth of Fred and Verna,
Speaker 1: that it was about the kids and what they wanted.
Speaker 1: In Fred's telling, Verna was pushing him to define the relationship.
Speaker 1: Verna said something to the effective you know, if you
Speaker 1: ever change your mind, or if you're whenever you're ready,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to see you and and I said, okay.
Speaker 1: She said, you know, I don't want to. I don't
Speaker 1: want to feew on the rebound. And then later on
Speaker 1: you'll decide that, you know, this is not something that
Speaker 1: you want. You know, you really ought to date other people.
Speaker 1: And of course I said, oh, that's a terrible like
Speaker 1: you like, I don't want to do other people. But
Speaker 1: then I did d Gail. After that that resulted in
Speaker 1: a little love triangle with Jeane's old friend Candy Henman
Speaker 1: as a go between. And then when Verna found that out,
Speaker 1: she was mad at me. And I said, well, he
Speaker 1: told me to date other people. She said, yeah, but
Speaker 1: I really, I really didn't mean that. And Gail had
Speaker 1: already said that she didn't want to date anymore because
Speaker 1: Candy had told her about Verna. And I didn't lie
Speaker 1: about Verna. So that's basically when we were pretty pretty
Speaker 1: sure we were going to stay together. Fred and Jean
Speaker 1: had sent their kids to the nursery school at Malibu
Speaker 1: Methodist but had never gone to church there. Verna, on
Speaker 1: the other hand, was both a teacher there and a
Speaker 1: devout member of the congregation. She and her husband Bill
Speaker 1: had attended regularly. After Jean died, Fred started showing up
Speaker 1: at Sunday services and made an effort to get to
Speaker 1: know the minister. This is Verna's friend, Michelle Williams. She
Speaker 1: was a fellow member of the congregation and also taught
Speaker 1: with Verna at the church nursery school. She's being interviewed
Speaker 1: by an investigator. How did you first find out that
Speaker 1: Verna and Fred were starting to get more involved with
Speaker 1: each other. I'm not sure. I think maybe it was
Speaker 1: because as Fred started going to the church and they
Speaker 1: started talking to the church. It seemed to me that
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways people thought that it was obvious,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't as obvious to me as it may
Speaker 1: have been to others. And I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: think I was one of the first to suspect that
Speaker 1: they were seeing each other really, because they were. It
Speaker 1: was just one of those things that they had always
Speaker 1: kind of known each other and dropped kids off back
Speaker 1: and forth. And as I say, Vernon, when I talked
Speaker 1: to her recently, she remembered that at least at Malibu Methodist,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of support for the new couple.
Speaker 1: We were so happy because Vernon had been widowed and Fred,
Speaker 1: you know, lost Jeane and to see the two of
Speaker 1: them together and to get married, that was just the
Speaker 1: happiest experience that we had, and as friends and as
Speaker 1: a church as well, everyone was just thrilled. Candy Henman
Speaker 1: says this extended to the preschool community too. Fred, in
Speaker 1: her view, got a hall pass for his treatment of Gene.
Speaker 1: He played the role of rescuer to the hilt. I
Speaker 1: think everybody at the nursery school thought he was just
Speaker 1: a god because of how he swooped in and took
Speaker 1: care of the children and then started taking here of
Speaker 1: Verna and her children, just by being mister Wonderful at
Speaker 1: the nursery school and taking care of the kids and
Speaker 1: being the ideal father. And Verna was so respected by everybody,
Speaker 1: and the fact that she then fell in love with
Speaker 1: him and they were together. I think that whole thing
Speaker 1: was just a cover up of how he is. Verna
Speaker 1: was beloved in Malibu. That she loved Fred and believed him.
Speaker 1: It kind of made everyone forget about Jean. After Jean's death,
Speaker 1: Verna had some explaining to do. She had been a
Speaker 1: very close friend of Jean's and part of a circle
Speaker 1: of women to whom Jean had confessed her troubles. All
Speaker 1: Jean's friends in Malibu knew what she'd been saying about Fred,
Speaker 1: that he was violent, and that she was afraid. Verna
Speaker 1: had listened, consoled, and apparently even stashed Fred's gun when
Speaker 1: Jean started to panic that Fred might use it on her.
Speaker 1: That time with Patty at the Red Onion after Jean's memorial,
Speaker 1: Verna had gone so far as to speculate that Fred
Speaker 1: might have killed Jean in the swimming pool. But then
Speaker 1: she had a surprise for Patty about a week after
Speaker 1: that conversation at the Red Onion. Then when they started
Speaker 1: seeing each other week or so later, she came out
Speaker 1: and she said, you know, they were standing each other.
Speaker 1: And on top of that bombshell, Verna had to request
Speaker 1: and she was adamant about it. Whatever you heard from Jeane,
Speaker 1: whatever I said about it, just forget it. She didn't
Speaker 1: want me to ever think any of the things that
Speaker 1: we had talked about, which is really easy to save
Speaker 1: you exactly. And all the problems that Jeanne had told
Speaker 1: us about his sexual problems, they just didn't exist with them.
Speaker 1: And I was to forget all of that, you know,
Speaker 1: and if I was a good friend and I just
Speaker 1: forget about that. Verna had done a one eighty on
Speaker 1: all things Fred, starting with Jean's death. Kue, do you
Speaker 1: think at the time that she believed that Jean's death
Speaker 1: was actually I think that she did. She would have
Speaker 1: almost in hand she I think she did. Fred had
Speaker 1: managed to explain it all away. You'd have to know Burn.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just loved her, dear little bitness. She
Speaker 1: wasn't well smart, and if she wanted to believe something
Speaker 1: bad enough, I think she Well, any of us can do,
Speaker 1: Vince bisec anything, and I think that maybe that's what
Speaker 1: the situation was it. You know, how can you get
Speaker 1: into side side of these kids? All I can do.
Speaker 1: Patti later told investigators that Fred quote fooled Verna completely.
Speaker 1: When Verna told her sister Julianne that she was dating Fred,
Speaker 1: Julianne was worried. Julienne told an investigator that she'd been
Speaker 1: put off by the stories that Jean had told about Fred.
Speaker 1: That day they took the kids to the amusement park.
Speaker 1: I didn't talk to my sister about it much after either,
Speaker 1: until she started dating Fred Mark, and I was concerned
Speaker 1: at that point, and she says, well, Fred and I
Speaker 1: have talked about what Jean told me and talked to
Speaker 1: me about and she said, he and I have really
Speaker 1: done a lot of talking, because she says, I felt
Speaker 1: it was only fair to Frail to let him know
Speaker 1: what Jane was saying at that point? Did did Verna
Speaker 1: ever tell you that she had heard all the rumors
Speaker 1: of the suspicions that various people had about Jane's death?
Speaker 1: Can you expound on that little bit? I said, are
Speaker 1: you sure things you know are okay? And she said yes,
Speaker 1: she said, Fred and I have talked at length about it.
Speaker 1: He's gone over the accident with me, and Verna even
Speaker 1: told me what someone you know that they had been
Speaker 1: in the hot tip together and Jeane had kept saying
Speaker 1: that the water was very warm, and Fred kept turning
Speaker 1: the water down, and yeah, shed Fred to go check
Speaker 1: on Kirston. Fred I supposed had gone into the house.
Speaker 1: He had Jeane had told Brna that he had gone
Speaker 1: into the house, and or Fred told burnus I'm sorry
Speaker 1: and checked on Kirsten, changed her pants and brought Jeane
Speaker 1: back a glass of wine and found her in the
Speaker 1: cold water. And that's all right. And that's all we
Speaker 1: elaborated on. But I'm just concerned from my sister because
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I don't want her to get
Speaker 1: involved with something good, you know, with terrible from the
Speaker 1: part Later, evidently, Verna was satisfied with Fred's version of events.
Speaker 1: After all, she was pursuing a relationship with them, so
Speaker 1: she must have had a new way to think about
Speaker 1: all the terrible things she'd heard about him from Jean.
Speaker 1: Here's Fred's friend, Mike Killeen. The indication to me is
Speaker 1: that she saw who the unstable person wants. You know,
Speaker 1: if there's a nut in this relationship, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: to use the word not, but hey, if we're going
Speaker 1: to carry it that far, if there was a person
Speaker 1: who wasn't stable, boy, that person was Gene Raider. Verna
Speaker 1: started to think she'd been taken in by Jean's version
Speaker 1: of events, judging Fred unfairly. Her friend Anne Louden explained
Speaker 1: this to investigators. I think that because Verna was really
Speaker 1: Jeans friend, didn't really have any affiliation with Fred other
Speaker 1: than he coming to pick the children up in her house,
Speaker 1: she really didn't know Fred, and so she was basing
Speaker 1: a lot of what happened on what Jean said, and
Speaker 1: she was a little uncomfortable that she had indicated. And
Speaker 1: she said that before they were getting married, that they
Speaker 1: had sat down and they talked this whole thing through
Speaker 1: very completely and thoroughly. She was finished talking to Fred
Speaker 1: and Fred side of the story where she'd always heard
Speaker 1: Jean side of the relationship. She was very comfortable and
Speaker 1: felt secure with what she was doing. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of chatter in Malibu at that time. Out of
Speaker 1: loyalty to Verna, some of her friends started defending Fred.
Speaker 1: Two people came up to me and had made comments
Speaker 1: and I just, did you really out of ways sher
Speaker 1: mouth episode? Because what you're saying is really decuated to
Speaker 1: a lot of people. I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1: It was the beginning of the pattern. If you were
Speaker 1: truly Verna's friend, you had to stand by Fred whenever
Speaker 1: they actually started seeing each other. By the beginning of
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, Verna and Fred were officially an item.
Speaker 1: She was still living on Broadbeach in the duplex she
Speaker 1: shared with the Lttels, and Fred was across pch on Calpine.
Speaker 1: It was getting complicated, but we knew that they were
Speaker 1: spending the night together, and it was a matter of
Speaker 1: getting the kids up to go to school and get
Speaker 1: the amount of time. And she came to me and
Speaker 1: she said, Anne, she said, you've got to tell me
Speaker 1: how you feel about this. And I said what She said,
Speaker 1: How do you feel about me and Fred living together?
Speaker 1: Said Verna, why do you worry about it? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't care, I said, I know. You guys are
Speaker 1: getting married. If thus you the comfortableness, and you've got
Speaker 1: these kids to do. I think it's perfectly here. I mean,
Speaker 1: and the people who don't like you and are gonna talk,
Speaker 1: gonna talk. Verna moved her kids out of the house
Speaker 1: on Broadbeach, leaving Patty and her bad vibes behind. Now, Verna, Kim,
Speaker 1: and Doug were living with Fred, Heidi, and Kirsten at
Speaker 1: the house on Calpine, and the relationship well. Fred had
Speaker 1: no complaints. He wrote that he and Verna quote had
Speaker 1: very good communication and very good sex, helped by a
Speaker 1: half hour in the hot tub before going to bed unquote.
Speaker 1: Soon Fred and Verna were presented with an incredible real
Speaker 1: estate opportunity. The house on Sea Level Drive, a gated
Speaker 1: dead end street off Broad Beach Road. I don't know
Speaker 1: whether we saw an ad in the paper or exactly
Speaker 1: where he got the first lead, but when we found
Speaker 1: out that there was a place down there, and we
Speaker 1: took a look at us, and then we went into
Speaker 1: the process of the purchase. They spent a little over
Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars about one point four million in
Speaker 1: today's money, which they cobbled together through creative refinancing on
Speaker 1: their other properties. The house was quirky. Here's Fred's friend,
Speaker 1: Mark Hatrick. Was this big, giant cement block house and
Speaker 1: it was one of the ugliest houses ever in the world,
Speaker 1: but it was in one of the most amazing spots
Speaker 1: ever in the world. Fred and Verna had followed the
Speaker 1: old real estate adage by the worst house on the
Speaker 1: best block. And I don't know the story of how
Speaker 1: Fred came to get that house. And even in Malibu,
Speaker 1: that's an exclusive address. Right behind the house was Verna's
Speaker 1: Broadbeach property, which she was renting out and out the
Speaker 1: front door was glorious Lechuza Beach and it was essentially private.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful, beautiful beach and the you know, it
Speaker 1: is the high rent district. I mean Eisner lived behind him,
Speaker 1: and Spielberg lived a few doors away, and Ali McGraw
Speaker 1: was right there. The last time Fred and Verna's former
Speaker 1: property changed hands in twenty eighteen, it sold for eleven
Speaker 1: point four million. Once they'd settled into the house on
Speaker 1: Sea Level Drive, Fred and Verna got married on the
Speaker 1: Choosa Beach. The minister from the Methodist Church performed the
Speaker 1: ceremony and played Jean's baby grand piano, which Fred and
Speaker 1: his groomsmen had carried down to the sand. Friends and
Speaker 1: family and their new neighbors came out to wish them well.
Speaker 1: It was Christmas time nineteen seventy seven. Bill had been
Speaker 1: dead for two years, Jean for fourteen months. Fred and
Speaker 1: Verna had rebounded, were thriving. Hottie was seven and she
Speaker 1: has clear memories of that day. People would say, oh,
Speaker 1: it is a Brady Bunch story. It was a family wedding,
Speaker 1: and I remember shopping for dresses. Now I laugh at
Speaker 1: the dresses. They were long white dresses with red polka
Speaker 1: dots and red ruffles that we wore, and with brown boots.
Speaker 1: And my brother was in a little sailor like you
Speaker 1: know suit thing. But it was always our wedding. We
Speaker 1: felt very included and everything they did it was like
Speaker 1: the whole family got married. Fred and Verna gave rings
Speaker 1: to each other and to their new step kids. It
Speaker 1: was a six ring ceremony. Fred got down on one
Speaker 1: knee and asked Kim and Doug something to the effective
Speaker 1: do you want to join our family here? Allowed me
Speaker 1: to your dad do something like that. It was so emotional,
Speaker 1: and it was funny because we bought we were teasing
Speaker 1: you when Verna were teasing each other. We said, we
Speaker 1: want them to say at least once that they wanted
Speaker 1: to be a part of this slough. Officially, Verna's ring
Speaker 1: had each of the children's burstones embedded in the band.
Speaker 1: Fred's and the kid's rings were gold with a texture
Speaker 1: like a golden nugget. Minds the nuggets sort of shot
Speaker 1: nugget's been worn down and it's sort of smooth that
Speaker 1: they serve an abstract design. If you look at it,
Speaker 1: we all think we can see hearts in it, but
Speaker 1: you know that's the eye of the beholder. Do you
Speaker 1: still wear that ring? Oh? Yes, yeah, was Verna? Would
Speaker 1: you say she was the love of your life? Yes?
Speaker 1: Everything just really came together we were on the same
Speaker 1: wave length on you know just about everything that you
Speaker 1: can imagine. Let's call and you our telephone number will
Speaker 1: be not at and recorded. Later, when he was in
Speaker 1: jail awaiting trial for Verna and Dougs murders, Fred wrote
Speaker 1: down some notes about this time, quote, we were living
Speaker 1: a dream that can never be duplicated, merging of two
Speaker 1: families in all the best ways possible, and to many
Speaker 1: people around them, they did seem blissfully happy. A family
Speaker 1: friend remembered Fred as quote sexy, wearing shoes with no socks,
Speaker 1: whipping up orange Dakeries to drink with Verna as the
Speaker 1: sun went down. This is their neighbor, Dottie Menville, in
Speaker 1: an archival interview, and just waiting up at each other
Speaker 1: and touched each other and made efforts to be attractive
Speaker 1: and make time together, and she was always I mean,
Speaker 1: I got the impression that they may love even in
Speaker 1: the daytime, and they felt like Anna. Those kids were
Speaker 1: all trained not to even knock if their doorish. This
Speaker 1: is Fred's brother Ron. I think Vernon was the best
Speaker 1: thing that ever happened to Fred. I saw him come
Speaker 1: out of this depression state that I saw him go into,
Speaker 1: which I solely attributed to Vernon. I was somewhat skeptical
Speaker 1: at the beginning, and I thought it worked out just
Speaker 1: extremely well. Fred started coaching the kids in sports, and
Speaker 1: the neighbors often saw them running together on the beach.
Speaker 1: This is Marnie Strucker. She played soccer with Heidi. I
Speaker 1: want to call us the Sunshine team. We had yellow uniforms,
Speaker 1: and you know, so we'd go to practices and he'd
Speaker 1: practice out in front on the sand, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was just a typical, active, you know, sports sort
Speaker 1: of oriented family and they just seemed really happy. She
Speaker 1: and Heidi were and are extremely close. We spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time at their home. They would come to
Speaker 1: our house and you know, having lunches or spending the
Speaker 1: weekends together and you know, just playing, and you know,
Speaker 1: that was that's my memory of them. Verna was just
Speaker 1: a kind, incredible, you know, sweet woman. She took Kirsten
Speaker 1: and Heidi in as her very own, and I'd say
Speaker 1: the same for Fred, and they immediately recalling each other
Speaker 1: sisters and brother and you know, it just it just
Speaker 1: seemed like the perfect Matt in my mind, and to
Speaker 1: this day, you know, Heidi calls Verna her mom, and
Speaker 1: that's not something you see very often when you know
Speaker 1: there's a combined family, you know, and she obviously lost
Speaker 1: her mom, But Verna was a mom to them, you know,
Speaker 1: and Fred was a father to them. Verna had ideas
Speaker 1: about how to reinforce positive behavior, sharing with a sibling,
Speaker 1: cooperating with a parent. Those behaviors would be rewarded with
Speaker 1: a warm, fuzzy khaloo a cappuccino. This was something for
Speaker 1: the kids. This is Heidi. So what my father did
Speaker 1: is at his work he had made tokens with our
Speaker 1: names on them, and I still have some of them.
Speaker 1: And every night after dinner, we would sit down and
Speaker 1: we would all take turns saying all the things we
Speaker 1: did that were positive or helpful, warm fuzzy. So I
Speaker 1: helped set the table and then we could get one
Speaker 1: out of the jar and so we'd go through. But
Speaker 1: then they would come back and go but you didn't
Speaker 1: make your bed, so then it would go back in
Speaker 1: the jar. Him just raked in the tokens. She's just
Speaker 1: listening all the things, and I'm thinking, oh, tomorrow I
Speaker 1: am going to set the tables. So I get a
Speaker 1: token and they know. The kids had known each other
Speaker 1: their whole lives, from preschool and play dates at Verna's
Speaker 1: house on broad Beach and swim lessons at the house
Speaker 1: on Calpine. Amazingly they not become rivals. Now maybe it
Speaker 1: helped that their ages were staggered. It went Verna's Kim,
Speaker 1: then Fred's Heidi, and Verna's Doug, then Fred's Kirsten. They
Speaker 1: all just got along. Fred and Verna couldn't believe how
Speaker 1: sweet life was, how lucky they were. Their first spouses
Speaker 1: had died. Was it wrong to be so happy in
Speaker 1: the wake of tragedy. Fred's friend Mike Keilleen told investigators
Speaker 1: that this became the subject of Fred and Verna's Pinch
Speaker 1: Me Pillow talk. He said, Vernon and I got to
Speaker 1: the point in our relationship were at night, when we
Speaker 1: lay in bed, we would ask them another question if
Speaker 1: the other person would come back today. They both had
Speaker 1: as somebody, who would you take, and we both agreed.
Speaker 1: He said that we would take one another because that's
Speaker 1: how life was just better than it had been with
Speaker 1: Bill and Jean. This caught the attention of the Santa
Speaker 1: Barbara detectives too, especially when they began to focus on
Speaker 1: the timeline of Fred's romance with Verna. Later, Fred would
Speaker 1: be called upon to account for his whereabouts on December first,
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, the day Bill Johnson plunged to his death.
Speaker 1: Because the more the detectives learned about Fred Rayler, the
Speaker 1: more they were starting to think he was not a
Speaker 1: victim of these terrible circumstances, but the architect coming up
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Lost Hills, its neighbor against
Speaker 1: neighbor and who knows what to think? Since January this
Speaker 1: is the top of the terror and immediately they were
Speaker 1: there was the division or who couldn't have done that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And yes, probably do Yeah, he probably didn't know. I
Speaker 1: mean I have those feelings some days I think you
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have done this, This is just too harm.
Speaker 1: Couldn't possibly In another days, I think, but what if
Speaker 1: he did? That's next in episode six, Cold Prickles. Lost
Speaker 1: Hills is written and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's
Speaker 1: created by Me and Benader and produced by Western Sound
Speaker 1: and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can
Speaker 1: hear the whole season add free and get early access
Speaker 1: to the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the
Speaker 1: Lost Hill Show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin
Speaker 1: dot Fm.