WEBVTT - 5. Who Would You Take? 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:26.596 Pushkin. When Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, died, she inherited 0:00:26.636 --> 0:00:30.236 their duplex on Broadbeach in Malibu. She and her kids, 0:00:30.356 --> 0:00:33.196 Kim and Doug, lived in one half, and in early 0:00:33.276 --> 0:00:35.716 nineteen seventy six she rented out the other half to 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:39.196 her friends Patty and John Lyttel and their two kids. 0:00:40.356 --> 0:00:44.476 Patty soon met Jean Rayler. The three of them, Patty, Verna, 0:00:44.516 --> 0:00:47.516 and Jean all had kids around the same age, so 0:00:47.556 --> 0:00:52.356 they started spending a lot of time together. On October fifteenth, 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:55.276 the day Jean went into a coma, Patty had spent 0:00:55.316 --> 0:00:58.116 the day at home babysitting Fred and Jean's younger daughter. 0:00:59.116 --> 0:01:01.396 Patty didn't find out that Jeanne was in the hospital 0:01:01.476 --> 0:01:05.116 until the next morning. Here she is telling the story 0:01:05.156 --> 0:01:07.436 to an investigator while on break from her job at 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:10.236 the bank. Want to get my hair done that day, 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:12.196 and Vernon came running out of her side of the house, 0:01:12.796 --> 0:01:17.676 you know, just hysterical and told me what had happened. Yeah. 0:01:17.716 --> 0:01:20.716 After Jean's memorial service, Patty and Verna went to a 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:24.636 Mexican restaurant Inventura called the Red Onion. As they sat 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:28.556 there trying to process everything that had just happened, their vibrant, 0:01:28.636 --> 0:01:33.276 confident friend dead at thirty four. Under such ambiguous and 0:01:33.356 --> 0:01:39.156 bizarre circumstances, they allowed themselves to think the unthinkable. What 0:01:39.276 --> 0:01:43.636 if Fred had murdered her? Verna had made such a 0:01:43.636 --> 0:01:49.756 big deal, you know, after Jeane died, she'd speculated, we 0:01:49.876 --> 0:01:53.676 both speculated whether he appealed her then, I remember, because 0:01:53.676 --> 0:01:55.356 they were seeing it from the red Onion invented her 0:01:55.436 --> 0:02:01.836 at the funeral and we had sat there getting drinks 0:02:02.876 --> 0:02:07.156 redon numerous times, getting drunk because whither he janit or not. 0:02:08.556 --> 0:02:11.236 But whatever Verna thought at the time of Jean's memorial, 0:02:11.716 --> 0:02:17.676 she soon changed her mind because Verna had fallen for Fred. 0:02:21.036 --> 0:02:52.476 I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills Episode five. 0:02:53.236 --> 0:02:58.436 Who would You Take? Verna Johnson worked at the preschool 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:01.676 where Fred and Jean sent their older daughter, Heidi. It 0:03:01.836 --> 0:03:05.556 was part of Malibu Methodist Church. Fred remembers how his 0:03:05.636 --> 0:03:09.076 first wife, Jean, befriended Verna, the woman who would become 0:03:09.356 --> 0:03:13.036 his second wife. She had actually found Verna at the 0:03:13.156 --> 0:03:18.716 nursery school, and Verna said that she would babysit the kids. 0:03:19.476 --> 0:03:22.316 Jean was a little bit older than Verna, more worldly 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:25.876 and ambitious. She'd been to college where she studied music 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:29.276 and had a busy career as a flight attendant. Verna 0:03:29.396 --> 0:03:32.276 went to beauty school and then was a housewife before 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:34.836 she started at the preschool where she sent her kids. 0:03:35.436 --> 0:03:38.516 But they related, Jean and Verna just seemed to get 0:03:38.516 --> 0:03:42.356 along well. They'd go to concerts together and share a 0:03:42.356 --> 0:03:44.476 glass of wine when Jean would pick up Hidie and 0:03:44.556 --> 0:03:48.636 Kirsten from Verna's house on Broadbeach. It was definitely more 0:03:49.236 --> 0:03:54.676 the women's connection. Fred says he really only knew Verna 0:03:54.756 --> 0:03:57.636 casually from the occasional drop off her pickup on the 0:03:57.676 --> 0:03:59.956 way to and from his job up the coast at 0:03:59.956 --> 0:04:03.396 Point Magoo. Jean and Verna were friends, and the kids 0:04:03.396 --> 0:04:06.996 were all friends, but the husbands, Fred and Bill hadn't 0:04:07.036 --> 0:04:11.636 spent much time together. Bill he had raced sports cars 0:04:11.716 --> 0:04:15.436 for a while. He had built a little Porsche speech Jurgle, 0:04:15.876 --> 0:04:19.356 and he had a helmet and gloves, and the kids 0:04:19.436 --> 0:04:21.836 used to enjoy putting them on and running around the 0:04:21.876 --> 0:04:25.916 house at his place. And I think at the time 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:31.316 I had tried hang gliding, and he actually thought that 0:04:31.316 --> 0:04:36.156 that might be something that he was interested in. But 0:04:36.276 --> 0:04:38.276 before they had a chance to get to know each other. 0:04:38.756 --> 0:04:41.716 Bill fell from the building where he was working and died. 0:04:42.516 --> 0:04:46.116 It was December first, nineteen seventy five. It was a 0:04:46.116 --> 0:04:50.116 hell of a a surprise to everybody. We were all shocked 0:04:50.436 --> 0:04:54.756 that Bill had died. No one knew that he had 0:04:54.796 --> 0:04:58.756 taken his life. It just seemed like it was you know, 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:01.316 he had fallen from a high rise, and since he 0:05:01.436 --> 0:05:08.316 was an electrician who built and wired high rises, no 0:05:08.316 --> 0:05:12.516 one and I was suspected that it had been a suicide. 0:05:13.516 --> 0:05:17.516 Of course, Jeane stopped taking the kids down there because 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:24.516 Verna was really quite upset after Bill's death. Jeane reached 0:05:24.516 --> 0:05:26.876 out to Verna, asking her to come to dinner at 0:05:26.916 --> 0:05:29.836 the house on Calpine. Fred said it was the first 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:32.956 time he'd spent more than fifteen minutes in Verna's company. 0:05:33.756 --> 0:05:36.516 Jean said, I've invited Vernon and her mother and the 0:05:36.596 --> 0:05:38.716 kids up for dinner, and I said, oh, that's terrific. 0:05:39.356 --> 0:05:43.356 So it went very well. They came to our house 0:05:43.396 --> 0:05:46.116 and that was the first time I had met Camelia, 0:05:46.796 --> 0:05:50.516 Verna's mother, And of course we didn't talk about still 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:53.036 or the death or thing, just more about the kids 0:05:53.076 --> 0:05:58.796 and school and things like that. The kids got along fine, 0:05:58.956 --> 0:06:03.396 and the adults got into some wine and felt a 0:06:03.436 --> 0:06:08.316 little better. Eventually. Fred says he'd learned more about Bell 0:06:09.516 --> 0:06:13.476 later on after we married, well actually before we married. 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:17.636 She told me he had been dealing with bipolar or 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:21.396 in some very heavy issues. Either the medication wasn't enough, 0:06:21.556 --> 0:06:25.236 or you know, something was going on. But I mean, 0:06:25.556 --> 0:06:30.916 Verna was literally the perfect wife. She was sweet, she 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:36.316 was beautiful, she was all those things. Once Bill was 0:06:36.396 --> 0:06:40.716 gone and Jean was gone, Verna would become his perfect 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:52.316 wife for a little while. Anyway. Several months after Bill died, 0:06:52.556 --> 0:06:55.116 Verna had started dating a bit, and in the summer 0:06:55.156 --> 0:06:58.556 of nineteen seventy six she was seeing a local swim instructor. 0:06:58.996 --> 0:07:01.676 He was actually teaching her kids and the Railer kids 0:07:01.716 --> 0:07:04.676 to swim in the pool at the Kalpine House. That 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:07.036 was the summer Fred was in Hawaii and he and 0:07:07.116 --> 0:07:11.596 Jean were falling apart, but by fall Vernon was single again, 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:14.956 and when Jean died in late October, she was willing 0:07:14.956 --> 0:07:20.156 to help out Fred newly widowed himself, so on October thirty, first, 0:07:20.196 --> 0:07:23.476 ten days after Jean was taken off the respirator, Vernon 0:07:23.556 --> 0:07:26.076 and Fred decided to go trick or treating together with 0:07:26.116 --> 0:07:30.316 the kids. And then probably the first time we did 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:39.796 anything together was for Halloween. Patty Lightel and her two 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:43.516 children and Vernon and her two children came up and 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:48.076 the three of us decorated all the kids because Heidi 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:52.636 wanted to be an angel, and that was pretty heavy. 0:07:58.996 --> 0:08:02.316 Her mother had died ten days earlier. She wanted to 0:08:02.396 --> 0:08:06.836 be an angel like her mom. And so we did 0:08:06.836 --> 0:08:11.156 a trick or treating thing with all the kids, and 0:08:11.516 --> 0:08:15.596 that's basically how things get started. That's the moment Fred 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:21.836 marks as the beginning of his life with Verna. To recap, 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:26.836 Bill dies on December first, nineteen seventy five, Verna, the 0:08:26.916 --> 0:08:29.836 babysitter and friend of Jean, comes over for dinner at 0:08:29.876 --> 0:08:34.156 the Coalpine House. Jean falls into a coma on October fifteenth, 0:08:34.356 --> 0:08:38.636 nineteen seventy six, and dies on October twenty first. Just 0:08:38.876 --> 0:08:42.476 days afterward, Patty recalls Verna speculates that Fred could have 0:08:42.636 --> 0:08:47.396 killed Jean. But then on Halloween, Verna and Fred take 0:08:47.436 --> 0:08:50.436 their kids trick or treating, and soon she's taking care 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:54.156 of his kids again. And then Fred and Verna are 0:08:54.196 --> 0:09:00.156 the ones sharing a glass of wine together. The way 0:09:00.196 --> 0:09:02.836 Fred tells it, it made all the sense in the world. 0:09:04.116 --> 0:09:06.556 We did start doing more things. We were we were 0:09:07.116 --> 0:09:11.316 waiting dinners, so I would fixed center for Vernon and 0:09:11.436 --> 0:09:16.236 her children and obviously my two at my house, and 0:09:16.436 --> 0:09:19.356 then a day or so later, Vernon would have us 0:09:19.436 --> 0:09:23.716 down to her place for dinner, and we bounced that 0:09:23.876 --> 0:09:27.956 back and forth. They were too recently bereaved adults with 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:32.556 four little kids between them. Well, the interesting thing is 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:38.796 the kids basically sort of sent something before I really did. 0:09:40.436 --> 0:09:44.636 I was still sort of stunned, and the kids would 0:09:44.676 --> 0:09:47.996 be all four of them would be together, and then 0:09:48.636 --> 0:09:51.756 they actually said at one point, you know, why don't 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:54.276 YouTube get together, or something to that effect, and we 0:09:54.396 --> 0:09:59.476 sort of laughed it off. But I think I think 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:04.916 Heidi and Kirsen and Kimberly still remember that. Actually they 0:10:04.956 --> 0:10:08.436 don't remember I asked them. But this has always been 0:10:08.516 --> 0:10:10.956 part of the crew creation myth of Fred and Verna, 0:10:11.556 --> 0:10:14.156 that it was about the kids and what they wanted. 0:10:15.116 --> 0:10:18.716 In Fred's telling, Verna was pushing him to define the relationship. 0:10:19.556 --> 0:10:22.276 Verna said something to the effective you know, if you 0:10:22.396 --> 0:10:26.196 ever change your mind, or if you're whenever you're ready, 0:10:26.476 --> 0:10:30.276 you know, I'd like to see you and and I said, okay. 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:32.876 She said, you know, I don't want to. I don't 0:10:32.916 --> 0:10:35.756 want to feew on the rebound. And then later on 0:10:35.916 --> 0:10:38.316 you'll decide that, you know, this is not something that 0:10:38.476 --> 0:10:41.316 you want. You know, you really ought to date other people. 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:45.036 And of course I said, oh, that's a terrible like 0:10:45.276 --> 0:10:47.596 you like, I don't want to do other people. But 0:10:47.756 --> 0:10:52.156 then I did d Gail. After that that resulted in 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:55.836 a little love triangle with Jeane's old friend Candy Henman 0:10:56.036 --> 0:11:00.036 as a go between. And then when Verna found that out, 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:02.236 she was mad at me. And I said, well, he 0:11:02.436 --> 0:11:04.876 told me to date other people. She said, yeah, but 0:11:04.996 --> 0:11:09.516 I really, I really didn't mean that. And Gail had 0:11:10.436 --> 0:11:13.956 already said that she didn't want to date anymore because 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:18.396 Candy had told her about Verna. And I didn't lie 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:24.196 about Verna. So that's basically when we were pretty pretty 0:11:24.196 --> 0:11:27.196 sure we were going to stay together. Fred and Jean 0:11:27.276 --> 0:11:29.476 had sent their kids to the nursery school at Malibu 0:11:29.556 --> 0:11:33.596 Methodist but had never gone to church there. Verna, on 0:11:33.676 --> 0:11:35.876 the other hand, was both a teacher there and a 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:38.956 devout member of the congregation. She and her husband Bill 0:11:39.196 --> 0:11:43.596 had attended regularly. After Jean died, Fred started showing up 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:46.076 at Sunday services and made an effort to get to 0:11:46.156 --> 0:11:50.796 know the minister. This is Verna's friend, Michelle Williams. She 0:11:50.996 --> 0:11:53.676 was a fellow member of the congregation and also taught 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:56.956 with Verna at the church nursery school. She's being interviewed 0:11:56.996 --> 0:12:00.076 by an investigator. How did you first find out that 0:12:00.236 --> 0:12:03.836 Verna and Fred were starting to get more involved with 0:12:03.916 --> 0:12:08.636 each other. I'm not sure. I think maybe it was 0:12:08.756 --> 0:12:12.956 because as Fred started going to the church and they 0:12:13.076 --> 0:12:18.396 started talking to the church. It seemed to me that 0:12:19.116 --> 0:12:21.876 in a lot of ways people thought that it was obvious, 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:25.316 but it wasn't as obvious to me as it may 0:12:25.356 --> 0:12:28.636 have been to others. And I don't know. I don't 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:31.596 think I was one of the first to suspect that 0:12:31.716 --> 0:12:34.196 they were seeing each other really, because they were. It 0:12:34.356 --> 0:12:36.836 was just one of those things that they had always 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:39.236 kind of known each other and dropped kids off back 0:12:39.316 --> 0:12:41.916 and forth. And as I say, Vernon, when I talked 0:12:41.956 --> 0:12:45.676 to her recently, she remembered that at least at Malibu Methodist, 0:12:46.116 --> 0:12:48.156 there was a lot of support for the new couple. 0:12:48.956 --> 0:12:53.876 We were so happy because Vernon had been widowed and Fred, 0:12:54.236 --> 0:12:58.116 you know, lost Jeane and to see the two of 0:12:58.196 --> 0:13:01.396 them together and to get married, that was just the 0:13:01.556 --> 0:13:06.756 happiest experience that we had, and as friends and as 0:13:06.796 --> 0:13:11.956 a church as well, everyone was just thrilled. Candy Henman 0:13:12.036 --> 0:13:15.956 says this extended to the preschool community too. Fred, in 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:18.956 her view, got a hall pass for his treatment of Gene. 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:23.596 He played the role of rescuer to the hilt. I 0:13:23.716 --> 0:13:26.396 think everybody at the nursery school thought he was just 0:13:26.556 --> 0:13:29.156 a god because of how he swooped in and took 0:13:29.196 --> 0:13:31.596 care of the children and then started taking here of 0:13:31.716 --> 0:13:35.476 Verna and her children, just by being mister Wonderful at 0:13:35.516 --> 0:13:38.236 the nursery school and taking care of the kids and 0:13:38.396 --> 0:13:43.716 being the ideal father. And Verna was so respected by everybody, 0:13:43.796 --> 0:13:46.596 and the fact that she then fell in love with 0:13:46.716 --> 0:13:48.716 him and they were together. I think that whole thing 0:13:48.916 --> 0:13:54.436 was just a cover up of how he is. Verna 0:13:54.596 --> 0:13:59.556 was beloved in Malibu. That she loved Fred and believed him. 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:23.956 It kind of made everyone forget about Jean. After Jean's death, 0:14:24.476 --> 0:14:27.516 Verna had some explaining to do. She had been a 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:30.436 very close friend of Jean's and part of a circle 0:14:30.476 --> 0:14:33.956 of women to whom Jean had confessed her troubles. All 0:14:34.076 --> 0:14:36.956 Jean's friends in Malibu knew what she'd been saying about Fred, 0:14:37.596 --> 0:14:41.396 that he was violent, and that she was afraid. Verna 0:14:41.516 --> 0:14:45.796 had listened, consoled, and apparently even stashed Fred's gun when 0:14:45.876 --> 0:14:49.236 Jean started to panic that Fred might use it on her. 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:53.436 That time with Patty at the Red Onion after Jean's memorial, 0:14:54.196 --> 0:14:56.836 Verna had gone so far as to speculate that Fred 0:14:56.956 --> 0:15:00.956 might have killed Jean in the swimming pool. But then 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:03.996 she had a surprise for Patty about a week after 0:15:04.116 --> 0:15:08.756 that conversation at the Red Onion. Then when they started 0:15:08.796 --> 0:15:13.396 seeing each other week or so later, she came out 0:15:13.436 --> 0:15:17.076 and she said, you know, they were standing each other. 0:15:17.196 --> 0:15:20.476 And on top of that bombshell, Verna had to request 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:24.596 and she was adamant about it. Whatever you heard from Jeane, 0:15:24.836 --> 0:15:28.796 whatever I said about it, just forget it. She didn't 0:15:28.796 --> 0:15:30.156 want me to ever think any of the things that 0:15:30.196 --> 0:15:32.636 we had talked about, which is really easy to save 0:15:32.876 --> 0:15:37.316 you exactly. And all the problems that Jeanne had told 0:15:37.396 --> 0:15:41.116 us about his sexual problems, they just didn't exist with them. 0:15:41.276 --> 0:15:43.316 And I was to forget all of that, you know, 0:15:43.396 --> 0:15:44.996 and if I was a good friend and I just 0:15:45.076 --> 0:15:48.636 forget about that. Verna had done a one eighty on 0:15:48.836 --> 0:15:53.076 all things Fred, starting with Jean's death. Kue, do you 0:15:53.196 --> 0:15:57.156 think at the time that she believed that Jean's death 0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.596 was actually I think that she did. She would have 0:16:00.636 --> 0:16:04.076 almost in hand she I think she did. Fred had 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:07.356 managed to explain it all away. You'd have to know Burn. 0:16:07.436 --> 0:16:09.556 I mean, I just loved her, dear little bitness. She 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:12.516 wasn't well smart, and if she wanted to believe something 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:14.636 bad enough, I think she Well, any of us can do, 0:16:15.796 --> 0:16:19.116 Vince bisec anything, and I think that maybe that's what 0:16:19.756 --> 0:16:21.916 the situation was it. You know, how can you get 0:16:21.956 --> 0:16:24.196 into side side of these kids? All I can do. 0:16:24.316 --> 0:16:29.156 Patti later told investigators that Fred quote fooled Verna completely. 0:16:36.476 --> 0:16:39.556 When Verna told her sister Julianne that she was dating Fred, 0:16:40.196 --> 0:16:44.356 Julianne was worried. Julienne told an investigator that she'd been 0:16:44.436 --> 0:16:47.196 put off by the stories that Jean had told about Fred. 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:49.636 That day they took the kids to the amusement park. 0:16:50.436 --> 0:16:53.676 I didn't talk to my sister about it much after either, 0:16:54.276 --> 0:16:59.236 until she started dating Fred Mark, and I was concerned 0:16:59.356 --> 0:17:01.876 at that point, and she says, well, Fred and I 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:04.036 have talked about what Jean told me and talked to 0:17:04.116 --> 0:17:06.076 me about and she said, he and I have really 0:17:06.196 --> 0:17:09.436 done a lot of talking, because she says, I felt 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:12.356 it was only fair to Frail to let him know 0:17:12.556 --> 0:17:16.796 what Jane was saying at that point? Did did Verna 0:17:16.876 --> 0:17:20.036 ever tell you that she had heard all the rumors 0:17:20.196 --> 0:17:23.996 of the suspicions that various people had about Jane's death? 0:17:25.476 --> 0:17:28.276 Can you expound on that little bit? I said, are 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:31.876 you sure things you know are okay? And she said yes, 0:17:31.996 --> 0:17:34.156 she said, Fred and I have talked at length about it. 0:17:34.836 --> 0:17:39.636 He's gone over the accident with me, and Verna even 0:17:39.676 --> 0:17:41.916 told me what someone you know that they had been 0:17:41.956 --> 0:17:44.596 in the hot tip together and Jeane had kept saying 0:17:44.636 --> 0:17:46.676 that the water was very warm, and Fred kept turning 0:17:46.676 --> 0:17:51.596 the water down, and yeah, shed Fred to go check 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:54.636 on Kirston. Fred I supposed had gone into the house. 0:17:54.676 --> 0:17:56.316 He had Jeane had told Brna that he had gone 0:17:56.316 --> 0:17:59.916 into the house, and or Fred told burnus I'm sorry 0:18:00.716 --> 0:18:04.596 and checked on Kirsten, changed her pants and brought Jeane 0:18:04.636 --> 0:18:06.436 back a glass of wine and found her in the 0:18:06.516 --> 0:18:10.156 cold water. And that's all right. And that's all we 0:18:10.236 --> 0:18:13.876 elaborated on. But I'm just concerned from my sister because 0:18:14.036 --> 0:18:16.316 I thought, you know, I don't want her to get 0:18:16.356 --> 0:18:20.516 involved with something good, you know, with terrible from the 0:18:20.596 --> 0:18:28.316 part Later, evidently, Verna was satisfied with Fred's version of events. 0:18:29.036 --> 0:18:32.596 After all, she was pursuing a relationship with them, so 0:18:32.756 --> 0:18:34.796 she must have had a new way to think about 0:18:34.836 --> 0:18:37.316 all the terrible things she'd heard about him from Jean. 0:18:38.396 --> 0:18:42.196 Here's Fred's friend, Mike Killeen. The indication to me is 0:18:42.236 --> 0:18:45.596 that she saw who the unstable person wants. You know, 0:18:45.916 --> 0:18:48.436 if there's a nut in this relationship, yeah, I think 0:18:48.436 --> 0:18:49.756 to use the word not, but hey, if we're going 0:18:49.796 --> 0:18:51.796 to carry it that far, if there was a person 0:18:51.836 --> 0:18:55.316 who wasn't stable, boy, that person was Gene Raider. Verna 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:58.156 started to think she'd been taken in by Jean's version 0:18:58.196 --> 0:19:03.156 of events, judging Fred unfairly. Her friend Anne Louden explained 0:19:03.196 --> 0:19:08.436 this to investigators. I think that because Verna was really 0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:12.236 Jeans friend, didn't really have any affiliation with Fred other 0:19:12.356 --> 0:19:15.876 than he coming to pick the children up in her house, 0:19:16.396 --> 0:19:19.876 she really didn't know Fred, and so she was basing 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:23.916 a lot of what happened on what Jean said, and 0:19:24.116 --> 0:19:27.476 she was a little uncomfortable that she had indicated. And 0:19:27.596 --> 0:19:29.756 she said that before they were getting married, that they 0:19:29.796 --> 0:19:32.276 had sat down and they talked this whole thing through 0:19:32.676 --> 0:19:36.796 very completely and thoroughly. She was finished talking to Fred 0:19:37.676 --> 0:19:40.476 and Fred side of the story where she'd always heard 0:19:40.596 --> 0:19:43.996 Jean side of the relationship. She was very comfortable and 0:19:44.196 --> 0:19:47.596 felt secure with what she was doing. There was a 0:19:47.676 --> 0:19:50.076 lot of chatter in Malibu at that time. Out of 0:19:50.156 --> 0:19:53.636 loyalty to Verna, some of her friends started defending Fred. 0:19:54.036 --> 0:19:56.276 Two people came up to me and had made comments 0:19:56.316 --> 0:19:57.756 and I just, did you really out of ways sher 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:00.476 mouth episode? Because what you're saying is really decuated to 0:20:00.556 --> 0:20:02.396 a lot of people. I don't want to hear it. 0:20:03.396 --> 0:20:05.916 It was the beginning of the pattern. If you were 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:13.156 truly Verna's friend, you had to stand by Fred whenever 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:15.916 they actually started seeing each other. By the beginning of 0:20:15.996 --> 0:20:20.116 nineteen seventy seven, Verna and Fred were officially an item. 0:20:21.436 --> 0:20:23.956 She was still living on Broadbeach in the duplex she 0:20:24.036 --> 0:20:27.956 shared with the Lttels, and Fred was across pch on Calpine. 0:20:28.636 --> 0:20:31.396 It was getting complicated, but we knew that they were 0:20:31.436 --> 0:20:33.236 spending the night together, and it was a matter of 0:20:33.316 --> 0:20:35.036 getting the kids up to go to school and get 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:36.476 the amount of time. And she came to me and 0:20:36.556 --> 0:20:38.236 she said, Anne, she said, you've got to tell me 0:20:38.316 --> 0:20:40.276 how you feel about this. And I said what She said, 0:20:40.276 --> 0:20:42.836 How do you feel about me and Fred living together? 0:20:43.596 --> 0:20:46.156 Said Verna, why do you worry about it? You know, 0:20:46.356 --> 0:20:48.196 I don't care, I said, I know. You guys are 0:20:48.236 --> 0:20:50.836 getting married. If thus you the comfortableness, and you've got 0:20:50.876 --> 0:20:53.716 these kids to do. I think it's perfectly here. I mean, 0:20:53.956 --> 0:20:55.876 and the people who don't like you and are gonna talk, 0:20:56.036 --> 0:20:59.316 gonna talk. Verna moved her kids out of the house 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:04.556 on Broadbeach, leaving Patty and her bad vibes behind. Now, Verna, Kim, 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:07.956 and Doug were living with Fred, Heidi, and Kirsten at 0:21:07.996 --> 0:21:12.436 the house on Calpine, and the relationship well. Fred had 0:21:12.476 --> 0:21:16.116 no complaints. He wrote that he and Verna quote had 0:21:16.276 --> 0:21:19.716 very good communication and very good sex, helped by a 0:21:19.756 --> 0:21:23.876 half hour in the hot tub before going to bed unquote. 0:21:53.916 --> 0:21:56.716 Soon Fred and Verna were presented with an incredible real 0:21:56.836 --> 0:22:00.756 estate opportunity. The house on Sea Level Drive, a gated 0:22:00.836 --> 0:22:04.076 dead end street off Broad Beach Road. I don't know 0:22:04.116 --> 0:22:07.476 whether we saw an ad in the paper or exactly 0:22:07.516 --> 0:22:10.876 where he got the first lead, but when we found 0:22:10.916 --> 0:22:14.436 out that there was a place down there, and we 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:17.236 took a look at us, and then we went into 0:22:17.356 --> 0:22:21.396 the process of the purchase. They spent a little over 0:22:21.476 --> 0:22:24.476 three hundred thousand dollars about one point four million in 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:28.916 today's money, which they cobbled together through creative refinancing on 0:22:29.036 --> 0:22:34.276 their other properties. The house was quirky. Here's Fred's friend, 0:22:34.516 --> 0:22:38.756 Mark Hatrick. Was this big, giant cement block house and 0:22:38.836 --> 0:22:41.436 it was one of the ugliest houses ever in the world, 0:22:41.916 --> 0:22:44.396 but it was in one of the most amazing spots 0:22:44.596 --> 0:22:47.756 ever in the world. Fred and Verna had followed the 0:22:47.836 --> 0:22:50.956 old real estate adage by the worst house on the 0:22:51.036 --> 0:22:53.596 best block. And I don't know the story of how 0:22:53.996 --> 0:22:57.476 Fred came to get that house. And even in Malibu, 0:22:57.596 --> 0:23:01.476 that's an exclusive address. Right behind the house was Verna's 0:23:01.516 --> 0:23:04.716 Broadbeach property, which she was renting out and out the 0:23:04.796 --> 0:23:09.996 front door was glorious Lechuza Beach and it was essentially private. 0:23:10.716 --> 0:23:13.836 It's a beautiful, beautiful beach and the you know, it 0:23:14.036 --> 0:23:18.516 is the high rent district. I mean Eisner lived behind him, 0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:23.836 and Spielberg lived a few doors away, and Ali McGraw 0:23:24.076 --> 0:23:27.756 was right there. The last time Fred and Verna's former 0:23:27.796 --> 0:23:31.956 property changed hands in twenty eighteen, it sold for eleven 0:23:32.076 --> 0:23:41.236 point four million. Once they'd settled into the house on 0:23:41.356 --> 0:23:43.996 Sea Level Drive, Fred and Verna got married on the 0:23:44.116 --> 0:23:47.396 Choosa Beach. The minister from the Methodist Church performed the 0:23:47.476 --> 0:23:51.556 ceremony and played Jean's baby grand piano, which Fred and 0:23:51.676 --> 0:23:54.916 his groomsmen had carried down to the sand. Friends and 0:23:55.036 --> 0:23:57.836 family and their new neighbors came out to wish them well. 0:23:58.996 --> 0:24:02.716 It was Christmas time nineteen seventy seven. Bill had been 0:24:02.796 --> 0:24:06.876 dead for two years, Jean for fourteen months. Fred and 0:24:07.036 --> 0:24:12.396 Verna had rebounded, were thriving. Hottie was seven and she 0:24:12.556 --> 0:24:16.036 has clear memories of that day. People would say, oh, 0:24:16.036 --> 0:24:19.796 it is a Brady Bunch story. It was a family wedding, 0:24:20.356 --> 0:24:23.796 and I remember shopping for dresses. Now I laugh at 0:24:23.836 --> 0:24:26.956 the dresses. They were long white dresses with red polka 0:24:26.996 --> 0:24:31.156 dots and red ruffles that we wore, and with brown boots. 0:24:31.196 --> 0:24:33.916 And my brother was in a little sailor like you 0:24:34.036 --> 0:24:36.836 know suit thing. But it was always our wedding. We 0:24:37.036 --> 0:24:40.756 felt very included and everything they did it was like 0:24:40.916 --> 0:24:44.196 the whole family got married. Fred and Verna gave rings 0:24:44.236 --> 0:24:47.516 to each other and to their new step kids. It 0:24:47.716 --> 0:24:51.236 was a six ring ceremony. Fred got down on one 0:24:51.316 --> 0:24:56.036 knee and asked Kim and Doug something to the effective 0:24:56.116 --> 0:24:59.236 do you want to join our family here? Allowed me 0:24:59.356 --> 0:25:03.156 to your dad do something like that. It was so emotional, 0:25:03.436 --> 0:25:06.556 and it was funny because we bought we were teasing 0:25:06.596 --> 0:25:09.196 you when Verna were teasing each other. We said, we 0:25:09.356 --> 0:25:12.276 want them to say at least once that they wanted 0:25:12.356 --> 0:25:16.076 to be a part of this slough. Officially, Verna's ring 0:25:16.156 --> 0:25:18.756 had each of the children's burstones embedded in the band. 0:25:19.436 --> 0:25:22.436 Fred's and the kid's rings were gold with a texture 0:25:22.556 --> 0:25:26.516 like a golden nugget. Minds the nuggets sort of shot 0:25:26.956 --> 0:25:30.756 nugget's been worn down and it's sort of smooth that 0:25:30.916 --> 0:25:34.516 they serve an abstract design. If you look at it, 0:25:35.236 --> 0:25:39.676 we all think we can see hearts in it, but 0:25:41.036 --> 0:25:44.036 you know that's the eye of the beholder. Do you 0:25:44.116 --> 0:25:49.276 still wear that ring? Oh? Yes, yeah, was Verna? Would 0:25:49.316 --> 0:25:52.516 you say she was the love of your life? Yes? 0:25:55.956 --> 0:26:00.516 Everything just really came together we were on the same 0:26:00.596 --> 0:26:05.236 wave length on you know just about everything that you 0:26:05.316 --> 0:26:08.636 can imagine. Let's call and you our telephone number will 0:26:08.636 --> 0:26:12.356 be not at and recorded. Later, when he was in 0:26:12.476 --> 0:26:15.836 jail awaiting trial for Verna and Dougs murders, Fred wrote 0:26:15.876 --> 0:26:18.996 down some notes about this time, quote, we were living 0:26:19.036 --> 0:26:22.156 a dream that can never be duplicated, merging of two 0:26:22.276 --> 0:26:26.316 families in all the best ways possible, and to many 0:26:26.356 --> 0:26:31.316 people around them, they did seem blissfully happy. A family 0:26:31.396 --> 0:26:35.636 friend remembered Fred as quote sexy, wearing shoes with no socks, 0:26:35.916 --> 0:26:38.636 whipping up orange Dakeries to drink with Verna as the 0:26:38.676 --> 0:26:42.876 sun went down. This is their neighbor, Dottie Menville, in 0:26:42.916 --> 0:26:46.036 an archival interview, and just waiting up at each other 0:26:46.116 --> 0:26:51.396 and touched each other and made efforts to be attractive 0:26:51.556 --> 0:27:01.196 and make time together, and she was always I mean, 0:27:01.236 --> 0:27:04.356 I got the impression that they may love even in 0:27:04.396 --> 0:27:06.916 the daytime, and they felt like Anna. Those kids were 0:27:06.956 --> 0:27:11.996 all trained not to even knock if their doorish. This 0:27:12.156 --> 0:27:15.516