1 00:00:15,086 --> 00:00:15,506 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,756 --> 00:00:26,736 Speaker 2: When Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, died, she inherited their 3 00:00:26,776 --> 00:00:30,246 Speaker 2: duplex on Broad Beach in Malibu. She and her kids, 4 00:00:30,366 --> 00:00:33,646 Speaker 2: Kim and Doug, lived in one half. And in early 1976, 5 00:00:33,646 --> 00:00:36,846 Speaker 2: she rented out the other half to her friends, Patty 6 00:00:36,926 --> 00:00:41,376 Speaker 2: and John Lytel, and their two kids. Patty soon met 7 00:00:41,496 --> 00:00:45,006 Speaker 2: Gene Raylor. The three of them, Patty, Verna, and Jean, 8 00:00:45,366 --> 00:00:48,066 Speaker 2: all had kids around the same age, so they started 9 00:00:48,136 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 2: spending a lot of time together. On October 15th, the 10 00:00:52,716 --> 00:00:55,376 Speaker 2: day Jean went into a coma, Patty had spent the 11 00:00:55,416 --> 00:00:59,496 Speaker 2: day at home babysitting Fred and Jean's younger daughter. Patty 12 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 2: didn't find out that Jean was in the hospital until 13 00:01:01,776 --> 00:01:05,266 Speaker 2: the next morning. Here she is, telling the story to 14 00:01:05,286 --> 00:01:07,686 Speaker 2: an investigator while on break from her job at the bank. 15 00:01:08,896 --> 00:01:10,256 Speaker 3: I was going to get my hair done that day, 16 00:01:10,296 --> 00:01:12,216 Speaker 3: and Verna came running out of her side of the house, 17 00:01:12,796 --> 00:01:16,096 Speaker 3: you know, just hysterical, and told me what had happened. 18 00:01:16,136 --> 00:01:16,996 Speaker 4: She had just heard about it. 19 00:01:17,136 --> 00:01:17,416 Speaker 5: Yeah. 20 00:01:17,836 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 2: After Jean's memorial service, Patty and Verna went to a 21 00:01:20,736 --> 00:01:24,356 Speaker 2: Mexican restaurant in Ventura called The Red Onion. As they 22 00:01:24,416 --> 00:01:27,296 Speaker 2: sat there, trying to process everything that had just happened, 23 00:01:27,836 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 2: their vibrant, confident friend, dead at 34, under such ambiguous 24 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:38,056 Speaker 2: and bizarre circumstances, they allowed themselves to think the unthinkable. 25 00:01:39,136 --> 00:01:40,956 Speaker 2: What if Fred had murdered her? 26 00:01:40,976 --> 00:01:45,296 Speaker 3: Brennan had made such a big deal, you know, right 27 00:01:45,336 --> 00:01:46,216 Speaker 3: after Jane died. 28 00:01:48,356 --> 00:01:49,196 Speaker 1: She'd speculated. 29 00:01:49,736 --> 00:01:51,976 Speaker 3: We both speculated whether he had killed her then. I 30 00:01:52,136 --> 00:01:54,836 Speaker 3: remember because we were sitting up in the Red Onion 31 00:01:54,876 --> 00:01:59,976 Speaker 3: in Ventura after the funeral. And we had sat there 32 00:02:00,656 --> 00:02:02,396 Speaker 3: getting drunk on margaritas. 33 00:02:02,436 --> 00:02:04,536 Speaker 6: I've been in the Red Onion numerous times getting drunk 34 00:02:04,636 --> 00:02:05,156 Speaker 6: on margaritas. 35 00:02:05,176 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: Whether he had done it or not. 36 00:02:08,606 --> 00:02:11,286 Speaker 2: But whatever Verna thought at the time of Jean's memorial, 37 00:02:11,776 --> 00:02:17,776 Speaker 2: she soon changed her mind. Because Verna had fallen for Fred. 38 00:02:21,156 --> 00:02:25,026 Speaker 2: I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. 39 00:02:26,546 --> 00:02:30,846 Speaker 7: Lost Hills. 40 00:02:51,696 --> 00:02:57,756 Speaker 2: Episode 5, Who Would You Take? Verna Johnson worked at 41 00:02:57,776 --> 00:03:01,056 Speaker 2: the preschool where Fred and Jean sent their older daughter, Heidi. 42 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:05,406 Speaker 2: It was part of Malibu Methodist Church. Fred remembers how 43 00:03:05,446 --> 00:03:08,906 Speaker 2: his first wife, Jean, befriended Verna, the woman who would 44 00:03:08,946 --> 00:03:10,046 Speaker 2: become his second wife. 45 00:03:11,026 --> 00:03:14,166 Speaker 8: Jean had actually found Verna at the nursery school, and 46 00:03:14,826 --> 00:03:18,646 Speaker 8: Verna said that she would babysit the kids. 47 00:03:19,526 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 2: Jean was a little bit older than Verna. more worldly 48 00:03:22,396 --> 00:03:25,856 Speaker 2: and ambitious. She'd been to college, where she studied music, 49 00:03:26,176 --> 00:03:29,326 Speaker 2: and had a busy career as a flight attendant. Verna 50 00:03:29,376 --> 00:03:32,286 Speaker 2: went to beauty school and then was a housewife before 51 00:03:32,326 --> 00:03:34,786 Speaker 2: she started at the preschool, where she sent her kids. 52 00:03:35,526 --> 00:03:36,246 Speaker 2: But they related. 53 00:03:36,266 --> 00:03:39,346 Speaker 8: Jean and Verna just seemed to get along well. 54 00:03:40,226 --> 00:03:42,726 Speaker 2: They'd go to concerts together and share a glass of 55 00:03:42,786 --> 00:03:45,186 Speaker 2: wine when Jean would pick up Heidi and Kirsten from 56 00:03:45,246 --> 00:03:46,646 Speaker 2: Verna's house on Broad Beach. 57 00:03:47,506 --> 00:03:51,746 Speaker 8: It was definitely more the women's connection. 58 00:03:52,826 --> 00:03:55,746 Speaker 2: Fred says he really only knew Verna casually from the 59 00:03:55,786 --> 00:03:58,446 Speaker 2: occasional drop-off or pickup on the way to and from 60 00:03:58,486 --> 00:04:01,836 Speaker 2: his job up the coast at Point Mugu. Gene and 61 00:04:01,866 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 2: Verna were friends, and the kids were all friends, but 62 00:04:04,676 --> 00:04:08,016 Speaker 2: the husbands, Fred and Bill, hadn't spent much time together. 63 00:04:08,916 --> 00:04:12,216 Speaker 8: Bill, he had raced sports cars for a while. He 64 00:04:12,256 --> 00:04:16,536 Speaker 8: had built a a little Porsche Speedster. And he had 65 00:04:16,576 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 8: a helmet and gloves, and the kids used to enjoy 66 00:04:20,206 --> 00:04:23,666 Speaker 8: putting them on and running around the house at his place. 67 00:04:24,126 --> 00:04:29,606 Speaker 8: And I think at the time I had tried hang gliding, 68 00:04:30,326 --> 00:04:32,306 Speaker 8: and he actually thought that that might be something that 69 00:04:32,346 --> 00:04:33,206 Speaker 8: he was interested in. 70 00:04:36,166 --> 00:04:37,846 Speaker 2: But before they had a chance to get to know 71 00:04:37,886 --> 00:04:40,426 Speaker 2: each other, Bill fell from the building where he was 72 00:04:40,466 --> 00:04:43,956 Speaker 2: working and died. It was December 1st, 1975. 73 00:04:43,956 --> 00:04:49,216 Speaker 8: It was a hell of a surprise to everybody. We 74 00:04:49,256 --> 00:04:53,776 Speaker 8: were all shocked that Bill had died. No one knew 75 00:04:53,796 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 8: that he had taken his life. It just seemed like 76 00:04:57,616 --> 00:05:00,516 Speaker 8: it was, you know, he had fallen from a high rise. 77 00:05:00,826 --> 00:05:05,926 Speaker 8: And since he was an electrician who built and wired 78 00:05:06,006 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 8: high rises, no one's you know, suspected that it had 79 00:05:11,556 --> 00:05:16,646 Speaker 8: been a suicide. Of course, Gene stopped taking the kids 80 00:05:16,706 --> 00:05:19,926 Speaker 8: down there because Verna was, you know, really quite upset. 81 00:05:22,646 --> 00:05:26,096 Speaker 2: After Bill's death, Gene reached out to Verna, asking her 82 00:05:26,136 --> 00:05:29,076 Speaker 2: to come to dinner at the house on Calpine. Fred 83 00:05:29,116 --> 00:05:30,936 Speaker 2: said it was the first time he'd spent more than 84 00:05:30,936 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 2: 15 minutes in Verna's company. 85 00:05:32,816 --> 00:05:36,556 Speaker 8: Gene said, I've invited Verna and her mother and the 86 00:05:36,616 --> 00:05:38,686 Speaker 8: kids up for dinner. And I said, oh, that's terrific. 87 00:05:39,416 --> 00:05:43,366 Speaker 8: So it went very well. They came to our house, 88 00:05:43,486 --> 00:05:46,226 Speaker 8: and that was the first time I had met Camelia, 89 00:05:46,806 --> 00:05:50,806 Speaker 8: Verna's mother. And, of course, we didn't talk about Bill 90 00:05:50,826 --> 00:05:53,036 Speaker 8: or the death or anything, just more about the kids 91 00:05:53,156 --> 00:05:58,796 Speaker 8: and school and things like that. The kids got along fine, 92 00:05:59,176 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 8: and the adults got into some wine and felt a 93 00:06:03,456 --> 00:06:04,776 Speaker 8: little better. 94 00:06:05,036 --> 00:06:07,826 Speaker 2: Eventually, Fred says, he'd learn. 95 00:06:07,646 --> 00:06:08,306 Speaker 1: More about Bill. 96 00:06:09,506 --> 00:06:13,456 Speaker 8: Later on, after we married, well, actually before we married, 97 00:06:13,476 --> 00:06:17,816 Speaker 8: she told me, he had been dealing with bipolar and 98 00:06:17,876 --> 00:06:21,776 Speaker 8: some very heavy issues. Either the medication wasn't enough or, 99 00:06:22,376 --> 00:06:25,896 Speaker 8: you know, something was going on. But, I mean, Verna 100 00:06:25,916 --> 00:06:32,056 Speaker 8: was literally the perfect wife. She was sweet. She was beautiful. 101 00:06:32,176 --> 00:06:34,316 Speaker 8: She was all those things. 102 00:06:35,616 --> 00:06:39,306 Speaker 2: Once Bill was gone and Jean was gone, Verna would 103 00:06:39,326 --> 00:06:51,216 Speaker 2: become his perfect wife. For a little while, anyway. Several 104 00:06:51,256 --> 00:06:53,956 Speaker 2: months after Bill died, Verna had started dating a bit. 105 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:57,366 Speaker 2: And in the summer of 1976, she was seeing a 106 00:06:57,406 --> 00:07:01,006 Speaker 2: local swim instructor. He was actually teaching her kids and 107 00:07:01,026 --> 00:07:03,006 Speaker 2: the Raylor kids to swim in the pool at the 108 00:07:03,026 --> 00:07:06,366 Speaker 2: Calpine House. That was the summer Fred was in Hawaii 109 00:07:06,706 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 2: and he and Jean were falling apart. But by fall, 110 00:07:10,556 --> 00:07:14,196 Speaker 2: Verna was single again. And when Gene died in late October, 111 00:07:14,456 --> 00:07:17,336 Speaker 2: she was willing to help out Fred, newly widowed himself. 112 00:07:18,556 --> 00:07:21,806 Speaker 2: So on October 31st, 10 days after Gene was taken 113 00:07:21,826 --> 00:07:25,326 Speaker 2: off the respirator, Verna and Fred decided to go trick-or-treating 114 00:07:25,346 --> 00:07:26,586 Speaker 2: together with the kids. 115 00:07:27,926 --> 00:07:32,326 Speaker 8: And then probably the first time we did anything together 116 00:07:33,496 --> 00:07:40,666 Speaker 8: was for Halloween. Patty Lightell and her two children and 117 00:07:40,746 --> 00:07:45,096 Speaker 8: Verna and her two children came up and the three 118 00:07:45,136 --> 00:07:48,496 Speaker 8: of us decorated all the kits because Heidi wanted to 119 00:07:48,556 --> 00:07:52,656 Speaker 8: be an angel. And that was pretty heavy. 120 00:07:59,096 --> 00:08:02,356 Speaker 2: Her mother had died 10 days earlier. She wanted to 121 00:08:02,396 --> 00:08:04,166 Speaker 2: be an angel like her mom. 122 00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:09,896 Speaker 8: And so we did a trick-or-treating thing with all the kids. 123 00:08:11,296 --> 00:08:13,376 Speaker 8: And that's basically how things got started. 124 00:08:14,556 --> 00:08:17,496 Speaker 2: That's the moment Fred marks as the beginning of his 125 00:08:17,576 --> 00:08:26,536 Speaker 2: life with Verna. To recap, Bill dies on December 1st, 1975. Verna, 126 00:08:26,856 --> 00:08:29,676 Speaker 2: the babysitter and friend of Gene, comes over for dinner 127 00:08:29,816 --> 00:08:33,266 Speaker 2: at the Calpine house. Jean falls into a coma on 128 00:08:33,306 --> 00:08:39,626 Speaker 2: October 15, 1976, and dies on October 21. Just days afterward, 129 00:08:39,706 --> 00:08:43,336 Speaker 2: Patty recalls, Verna speculates that Fred could have killed Jean. 130 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:48,476 Speaker 2: But then, on Halloween, Verna and Fred take their kids trick-or-treating, 131 00:08:49,356 --> 00:08:52,976 Speaker 2: and soon she's taking care of his kids again. And then, 132 00:08:53,376 --> 00:08:55,846 Speaker 2: Fred and Verna are the ones sharing a glass of 133 00:08:55,906 --> 00:09:01,836 Speaker 2: wine together. The way Fred tells it, it made all 134 00:09:01,896 --> 00:09:02,836 Speaker 2: the sense in the world. 135 00:09:04,176 --> 00:09:07,876 Speaker 8: We did start doing more things. We were dating dinners, 136 00:09:08,086 --> 00:09:12,126 Speaker 8: so I would fix dinner for Verna and her children 137 00:09:12,526 --> 00:09:17,386 Speaker 8: and obviously my two at my house. And then a 138 00:09:17,446 --> 00:09:19,906 Speaker 8: day or so later, Verna would have us down at 139 00:09:19,986 --> 00:09:24,586 Speaker 8: her place for dinner. And we bounced that back and forth. 140 00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 2: They were two recently bereaved adults with four little kids 141 00:09:29,056 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 2: between them. 142 00:09:30,656 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 8: Well... The interesting thing is the kids basically sort of 143 00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:41,296 Speaker 8: sensed something before I really did. I was still sort 144 00:09:41,336 --> 00:09:46,506 Speaker 8: of stunned and the kids would be, all four of 145 00:09:46,546 --> 00:09:49,766 Speaker 8: them would be together and then they actually said at 146 00:09:49,886 --> 00:09:52,886 Speaker 8: one point, you know, why don't you two get together 147 00:09:52,926 --> 00:09:55,006 Speaker 8: or something to that effect and we sort of laughed 148 00:09:55,086 --> 00:10:01,546 Speaker 8: it off. But I think Heidi and And Kirsten and 149 00:10:01,606 --> 00:10:02,986 Speaker 8: Kimberly still remember that. 150 00:10:04,416 --> 00:10:05,656 Speaker 2: Actually, they don't remember. 151 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 1: I asked them. 152 00:10:07,546 --> 00:10:09,086 Speaker 2: But this has always been part of the creative process. 153 00:10:09,526 --> 00:10:12,386 Speaker 2: myth of Fred and Verna, that it was about the 154 00:10:12,456 --> 00:10:16,776 Speaker 2: kids and what they wanted. In Fred's telling, Verna was 155 00:10:16,856 --> 00:10:18,776 Speaker 2: pushing him to define the relationship. 156 00:10:19,576 --> 00:10:22,156 Speaker 8: Verna said something to the effect of, you know, if 157 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:26,896 Speaker 8: you ever change your mind or whenever you're ready, you know, 158 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:30,486 Speaker 8: I'd like to see you and And I said, OK. 159 00:10:30,546 --> 00:10:33,626 Speaker 8: She said, you know, I don't want to see you 160 00:10:33,866 --> 00:10:36,816 Speaker 8: on the rebound. And then later on, you'll decide that, 161 00:10:37,056 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 8: you know, this is not something that you want. You know, 162 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:41,956 Speaker 8: you really ought to date other people. And of course, 163 00:10:42,016 --> 00:10:45,536 Speaker 8: I said, oh, that's a terrible idea. I like you. 164 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 8: I don't want to date other people. But then I 165 00:10:48,136 --> 00:10:50,476 Speaker 8: did date Gail after that. 166 00:10:50,496 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 2: That resulted in a little love triangle with Jean's old 167 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:56,826 Speaker 2: friend Candy Hinman as a go-between. 168 00:10:57,976 --> 00:11:00,696 Speaker 8: And then when Verna found that out, she was mad 169 00:11:00,736 --> 00:11:02,976 Speaker 8: at me, and I said, well, you told me to 170 00:11:03,236 --> 00:11:06,336 Speaker 8: date other people. She said, yeah, but I really didn't 171 00:11:06,416 --> 00:11:12,596 Speaker 8: mean that. And Gail had already said that she didn't 172 00:11:12,616 --> 00:11:16,706 Speaker 8: want to date anymore because Candy had told her about Verna, 173 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:22,226 Speaker 8: and I didn't lie about Verna. So that's basically when 174 00:11:22,266 --> 00:11:25,486 Speaker 8: we were pretty sure we were going to stay together. 175 00:11:26,646 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 2: Fred and Jean had sent their kids to the nursery 176 00:11:28,746 --> 00:11:33,536 Speaker 2: school at Malibu Methodist, but had never gone to church there. Verna, 177 00:11:33,596 --> 00:11:35,856 Speaker 2: on the other hand, was both a teacher there and 178 00:11:35,896 --> 00:11:38,716 Speaker 2: a devout member of the congregation. She and her husband 179 00:11:38,736 --> 00:11:43,416 Speaker 2: Bill had attended regularly. After Jean died, Fred started showing 180 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:46,016 Speaker 2: up at Sunday services and made an effort to get 181 00:11:46,066 --> 00:11:50,066 Speaker 2: to know the minister. This is Verna's friend, Michelle Williams. 182 00:11:50,846 --> 00:11:53,426 Speaker 2: She was a fellow member of the congregation and also 183 00:11:53,486 --> 00:11:56,546 Speaker 2: taught with Verna at the church nursery school. She's being 184 00:11:56,586 --> 00:11:57,826 Speaker 2: interviewed by an investigator. 185 00:11:58,806 --> 00:12:01,046 Speaker 9: How did you first find out that Verna and Fred 186 00:12:01,096 --> 00:12:04,176 Speaker 9: were starting to get involved with each other? 187 00:12:04,196 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 10: I'm not sure. 188 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 11: I think maybe it was because Fred started going to 189 00:12:10,376 --> 00:12:17,896 Speaker 11: the church and they started talking at church. It seemed 190 00:12:17,966 --> 00:12:20,966 Speaker 11: to me that in a lot of ways people thought 191 00:12:20,986 --> 00:12:23,546 Speaker 11: that it was obvious, but it wasn't as obvious to 192 00:12:23,606 --> 00:12:26,946 Speaker 11: me as it may have been to others. And I 193 00:12:27,566 --> 00:12:29,466 Speaker 11: don't know, I don't think I was one of the 194 00:12:29,506 --> 00:12:33,146 Speaker 11: first to suspect that they were seeing each other, really. 195 00:12:33,166 --> 00:12:35,366 Speaker 11: Because they were, it was just one of those things 196 00:12:35,446 --> 00:12:38,246 Speaker 11: that they had always kind of known each other and 197 00:12:38,286 --> 00:12:41,426 Speaker 11: dropped kids off back and forth. 198 00:12:41,466 --> 00:12:44,266 Speaker 2: When I talked to her recently, she remembered that, at 199 00:12:44,326 --> 00:12:47,446 Speaker 2: least at Malibu Methodist, there was a lot of support 200 00:12:47,486 --> 00:12:48,226 Speaker 2: for the new couple. 201 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: We were so happy. 202 00:12:51,016 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 5: Because Verna had been widowed and Fred, you know, lost Jean. 203 00:12:56,216 --> 00:12:59,586 Speaker 5: And to see the two of them together and to 204 00:12:59,626 --> 00:13:04,906 Speaker 5: get married, that was just the happiest experience that we had. 205 00:13:05,046 --> 00:13:08,886 Speaker 5: And as friends and as a church as well, everyone 206 00:13:08,926 --> 00:13:10,246 Speaker 5: was just thrilled. 207 00:13:11,226 --> 00:13:15,846 Speaker 2: Candy Hinman says this extended to the preschool community too. Fred, 208 00:13:15,946 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 2: in her view, got a hall pass for his treatment 209 00:13:18,506 --> 00:13:22,296 Speaker 2: of Jean. he played the role of rescuer to the hilt. 210 00:13:23,616 --> 00:13:26,256 Speaker 12: I think everybody at the nursery school thought he was 211 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:28,966 Speaker 12: just a god because of how he swooped in and 212 00:13:28,986 --> 00:13:31,566 Speaker 12: took care of the children and then started taking care 213 00:13:31,606 --> 00:13:35,366 Speaker 12: of Verna and her children. Just by being Mr. Wonderful 214 00:13:35,406 --> 00:13:38,186 Speaker 12: at the nursery school and taking care of the kids 215 00:13:38,266 --> 00:13:43,046 Speaker 12: and being the ideal father. And Verna was so respected 216 00:13:43,086 --> 00:13:46,386 Speaker 12: by everybody and the fact that she then fell in 217 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:48,296 Speaker 12: love with him and they were together, I think that 218 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:52,536 Speaker 12: whole thing was just a cover-up of how he is. 219 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:58,846 Speaker 2: Verna was beloved in Malibu, that she loved Fred and 220 00:13:58,906 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 2: believed him. It kind of made everyone forget about Jean. 221 00:14:23,016 --> 00:14:27,116 Speaker 2: After Jean's death, Verna had some explaining to do. She 222 00:14:27,156 --> 00:14:29,926 Speaker 2: had been a very close friend of Jean's and part 223 00:14:29,946 --> 00:14:32,346 Speaker 2: of a circle of women to whom Jean had confessed 224 00:14:32,386 --> 00:14:35,966 Speaker 2: her troubles. All Jean's friends in Malibu knew what she'd 225 00:14:35,986 --> 00:14:39,126 Speaker 2: been saying about Fred, that he was violent and that 226 00:14:39,186 --> 00:14:44,326 Speaker 2: she was afraid. Verna had listened, consoled, and apparently even 227 00:14:44,426 --> 00:14:47,546 Speaker 2: stashed Fred's gun when Jean started to panic that Fred 228 00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 2: might use it on her. That time with Patty at 229 00:14:51,456 --> 00:14:55,136 Speaker 2: the Red Onion, after Jean's memorial, Verna had gone so 230 00:14:55,196 --> 00:14:58,076 Speaker 2: far as to speculate that Fred might have killed Jean 231 00:14:58,446 --> 00:15:01,826 Speaker 2: in the swimming pool. But then she had a surprise 232 00:15:01,866 --> 00:15:05,166 Speaker 2: for Patty, about a week after that conversation at the 233 00:15:05,206 --> 00:15:05,686 Speaker 2: Red Onion. 234 00:15:07,906 --> 00:15:10,806 Speaker 3: Then when they started seeing each other a week or 235 00:15:11,216 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 3: so later, she came out and she said, you know, 236 00:15:16,016 --> 00:15:17,176 Speaker 3: that they were seeing each other. 237 00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:21,256 Speaker 2: On top of that bombshell... Verna had a request, and 238 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:24,606 Speaker 2: she was adamant about it. Whatever you heard from Gene, 239 00:15:24,886 --> 00:15:27,876 Speaker 2: whatever I said about it, just forget it. 240 00:15:28,486 --> 00:15:29,826 Speaker 3: She didn't want me to ever think any of the 241 00:15:29,866 --> 00:15:32,186 Speaker 3: things that we had talked about, which is really easy 242 00:15:32,206 --> 00:15:36,446 Speaker 3: to say, but you know exactly. And all the problems 243 00:15:36,486 --> 00:15:39,956 Speaker 3: that Gene had told us about his sexual problems, they 244 00:15:39,976 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 3: just didn't exist with them, and I was to forget 245 00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:44,196 Speaker 3: all of that. You know, and if I was a 246 00:15:44,296 --> 00:15:45,836 Speaker 3: good friend, then I'd just forget about that. 247 00:15:46,946 --> 00:15:51,106 Speaker 2: Verna had done a 180 on all things Fred, starting 248 00:15:51,286 --> 00:15:52,826 Speaker 2: with Jean's death. 249 00:15:52,906 --> 00:15:56,546 Speaker 6: Do you think at the time that she believed that 250 00:15:56,626 --> 00:15:58,566 Speaker 6: Jean's death was accidental? 251 00:15:58,926 --> 00:16:00,186 Speaker 3: I think that she did. 252 00:16:00,206 --> 00:16:02,606 Speaker 1: She would have almost had to. I think she did. 253 00:16:03,646 --> 00:16:05,786 Speaker 2: Fred had managed to explain it all away. 254 00:16:06,496 --> 00:16:07,366 Speaker 1: You'd have to know her. 255 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:09,196 Speaker 3: I mean, I just loved her dearly, but in some 256 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 3: ways she wasn't real smart. And if she wanted to 257 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:13,676 Speaker 3: believe something bad enough, I think she. 258 00:16:13,816 --> 00:16:14,976 Speaker 6: Well, any of us can do it. 259 00:16:15,056 --> 00:16:18,196 Speaker 3: I can convince myself of anything. And I think that 260 00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:21,676 Speaker 3: maybe that's what the situation was. You know, how can 261 00:16:21,716 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 3: you get inside somebody's head? 262 00:16:23,416 --> 00:16:29,186 Speaker 2: Patty later told investigators that Fred, quote, fooled Verna completely. 263 00:16:36,586 --> 00:16:39,966 Speaker 2: When Verna told her sister Julianne that she was dating Fred... 264 00:16:40,236 --> 00:16:44,326 Speaker 2: Julianne was worried. Julianne told an investigator that she'd been 265 00:16:44,466 --> 00:16:46,866 Speaker 2: put off by the stories that Jean had told about 266 00:16:46,946 --> 00:16:49,666 Speaker 2: Fred that day they took the kids to the amusement park. 267 00:16:50,576 --> 00:16:53,416 Speaker 13: I didn't talk to my sister about it much after 268 00:16:53,516 --> 00:16:55,276 Speaker 13: either until. 269 00:16:55,896 --> 00:16:59,316 Speaker 1: She started dating Fred more. And I was concerned at 270 00:16:59,496 --> 00:17:00,016 Speaker 1: that point. 271 00:17:00,896 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 13: And she says, well, Fred and I have talked about 272 00:17:02,656 --> 00:17:04,616 Speaker 13: what Gene told me and talked to me about. And 273 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:06,996 Speaker 13: she said, he and I have really done a lot 274 00:17:07,016 --> 00:17:10,266 Speaker 13: of talking. Because, she says, I felt it was only 275 00:17:10,306 --> 00:17:13,166 Speaker 13: fair to Fred to let him know what Gene was 276 00:17:13,206 --> 00:17:14,506 Speaker 13: saying at that point. 277 00:17:15,026 --> 00:17:19,496 Speaker 9: Did Verna ever tell you that she had heard all 278 00:17:19,506 --> 00:17:23,996 Speaker 9: the rumors, the suspicions that various people had about Gene's death? 279 00:17:24,016 --> 00:17:25,536 Speaker 1: Yes. 280 00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:26,966 Speaker 9: Can you expound on that a little bit? 281 00:17:27,306 --> 00:17:30,716 Speaker 13: I said, are you sure things, you know, are okay? 282 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:31,936 Speaker 7: And she said, yes. 283 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:34,176 Speaker 13: She said, Fred and I have talked at length about it. 284 00:17:34,896 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 13: He's gone over the accident with me. And Verna even 285 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 13: told me what some of, you know, that they'd been 286 00:17:41,976 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 13: in the hot tub together. 287 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:44,956 Speaker 1: And Jean had kept saying that the. 288 00:17:44,896 --> 00:17:47,416 Speaker 13: Water was very warm and Fred kept turning the water down. 289 00:17:48,576 --> 00:17:52,246 Speaker 13: And then she asked Fred to go check on Kirsten. 290 00:17:52,906 --> 00:17:55,746 Speaker 13: Fred had gone into the house. Jean had told Verna 291 00:17:55,766 --> 00:17:58,896 Speaker 13: that he had gone into the house. And, or Fred 292 00:17:58,936 --> 00:18:02,736 Speaker 13: told her this, I'm sorry. And checked on Kirsten, changed 293 00:18:02,776 --> 00:18:05,776 Speaker 13: her pants, and brought Jean back a glass of wine 294 00:18:05,816 --> 00:18:08,196 Speaker 13: and found her in the cold water. And that's all 295 00:18:08,216 --> 00:18:09,456 Speaker 13: that I did. 296 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:10,756 Speaker 10: And that's all we elaborated on. 297 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:14,486 Speaker 13: But I was concerned for my sister because I thought, 298 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:16,776 Speaker 13: you know, I don't want her to get involved with 299 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:20,786 Speaker 13: something that, you know, would tear both of them apart 300 00:18:20,806 --> 00:18:21,706 Speaker 13: later on. 301 00:18:25,406 --> 00:18:29,646 Speaker 2: Evidently, Verna was satisfied with Fred's version of events. After all, 302 00:18:30,006 --> 00:18:33,086 Speaker 2: she was pursuing a relationship with him. So she must 303 00:18:33,126 --> 00:18:35,166 Speaker 2: have had a new way to think about all the 304 00:18:35,206 --> 00:18:39,486 Speaker 2: terrible things she'd heard about him from Gene. Here's Fred's friend, 305 00:18:39,766 --> 00:18:40,426 Speaker 2: Mike Killeen. 306 00:18:40,926 --> 00:18:43,766 Speaker 9: The indication to me is that she saw who the 307 00:18:43,806 --> 00:18:46,396 Speaker 9: unstable person was. She knew, you know, if there's a 308 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:48,816 Speaker 9: nut in this relationship. Yeah, I hate to use the 309 00:18:48,856 --> 00:18:50,096 Speaker 9: word nut, but hey, if we're going to carry it 310 00:18:50,136 --> 00:18:52,916 Speaker 9: that far, if there was a person who wasn't stable, boy, 311 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:54,196 Speaker 9: that person was Gene Rayburn. 312 00:18:55,046 --> 00:18:57,846 Speaker 2: Verna started to think she'd been taken in by Gene's 313 00:18:57,886 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 2: version of events, judging Fred unfairly. Her friend, Ann Loudon, 314 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:04,196 Speaker 2: explained this to investigators. 315 00:19:06,236 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 4: I think that because Verna was really Gene's friend, didn't 316 00:19:10,056 --> 00:19:13,936 Speaker 4: really have any affiliation with Fred other than he coming 317 00:19:13,976 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 4: to pick the children up at her house, she really 318 00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:20,436 Speaker 4: didn't know Fred. And so she was basing a lot 319 00:19:20,496 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 4: of what happened On what Jean said, and she was 320 00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:28,216 Speaker 4: a little uncomfortable. She had indicated and she said that 321 00:19:28,256 --> 00:19:30,536 Speaker 4: before they were getting married that they had sat down 322 00:19:30,626 --> 00:19:34,626 Speaker 4: and they talked this whole thing through very completely and thoroughly. 323 00:19:35,326 --> 00:19:38,746 Speaker 4: She was finished talking to Fred and she heard Fred's 324 00:19:38,766 --> 00:19:41,086 Speaker 4: side of the story where she'd always heard Jean's side 325 00:19:41,126 --> 00:19:44,966 Speaker 4: of the relationship. She was very comfortable and felt secure 326 00:19:45,026 --> 00:19:47,906 Speaker 4: with what she was doing. There was a lot of 327 00:19:47,966 --> 00:19:49,606 Speaker 4: chatter in Malibu at that time. 328 00:19:49,926 --> 00:19:52,736 Speaker 2: Out of loyalty to Verna... some of her friends started 329 00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:53,736 Speaker 2: defending Fred. 330 00:19:54,116 --> 00:19:56,346 Speaker 4: Two people came up to me and had made comments, 331 00:19:56,406 --> 00:19:57,966 Speaker 4: and I just said, you really ought to wash your mouth. 332 00:19:58,136 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 4: because what you're saying is really detrimental to a lot 333 00:20:00,896 --> 00:20:01,476 Speaker 4: of people. 334 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:02,606 Speaker 8: I don't want to hear it. 335 00:20:03,516 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 2: It was the beginning of a pattern. If you were 336 00:20:06,056 --> 00:20:13,186 Speaker 2: truly Verna's friend, you had to stand by Fred. Whenever 337 00:20:13,226 --> 00:20:17,546 Speaker 2: they actually started seeing each other, by the beginning of 1977— 338 00:20:17,546 --> 00:20:22,026 Speaker 2: Verna and Fred were officially an item. She was still 339 00:20:22,066 --> 00:20:24,446 Speaker 2: living on Broad Beach in the duplex she shared with 340 00:20:24,466 --> 00:20:28,816 Speaker 2: the Lytels, and Fred was across PCH on Calpine. It 341 00:20:28,856 --> 00:20:29,836 Speaker 2: was getting complicated. 342 00:20:30,556 --> 00:20:32,576 Speaker 4: But we knew that they were spending the night together, 343 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:34,136 Speaker 4: and it was a matter of getting the kids up 344 00:20:34,176 --> 00:20:35,756 Speaker 4: to go to school and get them on time. And 345 00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:37,856 Speaker 4: she came to me and she said, Ann, you've got 346 00:20:37,896 --> 00:20:39,316 Speaker 4: to tell me how you feel about this. 347 00:20:39,376 --> 00:20:39,936 Speaker 1: And I said, what? 348 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:42,146 Speaker 4: She said, how do you feel about me and Fred 349 00:20:42,186 --> 00:20:45,246 Speaker 4: living together? I said, Verna, why do you worry about it? 350 00:20:46,026 --> 00:20:47,886 Speaker 4: You know, I don't care. I said, I know you 351 00:20:47,926 --> 00:20:50,266 Speaker 4: guys are getting married. If that's how you the comfortable 352 00:20:50,326 --> 00:20:52,126 Speaker 4: is and you've got these kids to deal with, I 353 00:20:52,146 --> 00:20:54,586 Speaker 4: think it's perfectly fine. I mean, and the people who 354 00:20:54,606 --> 00:20:56,616 Speaker 4: don't like you and are going to talk, going to talk. 355 00:20:56,636 --> 00:20:57,096 Speaker 4: That's one of theirs. 356 00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:00,116 Speaker 2: Verna moved her kids out of the house on Broad Beach, 357 00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:04,636 Speaker 2: leaving Patty and her bad vibes behind. Now Verna, Kim, 358 00:21:04,716 --> 00:21:07,976 Speaker 2: and Doug were living with Fred, Heidi, and Kirsten at 359 00:21:08,016 --> 00:21:12,406 Speaker 2: the house on Calpine. And the relationship? Well, Fred had 360 00:21:12,486 --> 00:21:16,166 Speaker 2: no complaints. He wrote that he and Verna, quote, had 361 00:21:16,226 --> 00:21:19,766 Speaker 2: very good communication and very good sex, helped by a 362 00:21:19,806 --> 00:21:54,266 Speaker 2: half hour in the hot tub before going to bed, unquote. Soon, 363 00:21:54,366 --> 00:21:57,706 Speaker 2: Fred and Verna were presented with an incredible real estate opportunity. 364 00:21:58,386 --> 00:22:01,936 Speaker 2: The house on C-Level Drive, a gated dead-end street off 365 00:22:01,976 --> 00:22:02,756 Speaker 2: Broad Beach Road. 366 00:22:02,776 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 8: I don't know whether we saw an ad in the 367 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:08,876 Speaker 8: paper or exactly where we got the first lead, but 368 00:22:09,986 --> 00:22:12,126 Speaker 8: But when we found out that there was a place 369 00:22:12,206 --> 00:22:15,706 Speaker 8: down there, and we took a look at it, and 370 00:22:15,746 --> 00:22:19,546 Speaker 8: then we went into the process of the purchase. 371 00:22:20,446 --> 00:22:24,516 Speaker 2: They spent a little over $ 300, 000, about $ 1. 4 million in 372 00:22:24,556 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 2: today's money, which they cobbled together through creative refinancing on 373 00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:34,356 Speaker 2: their other properties. The house was quirky. Here's Fred's friend, 374 00:22:34,576 --> 00:22:35,166 Speaker 2: Mark Hetrick. 375 00:22:36,056 --> 00:22:38,936 Speaker 14: It was this big, giant cement block house, and it 376 00:22:38,976 --> 00:22:41,456 Speaker 14: was one of the ugliest houses ever in the world, 377 00:22:41,996 --> 00:22:44,466 Speaker 14: but it was in one of the most amazing spots 378 00:22:44,726 --> 00:22:45,626 Speaker 14: ever in the world. 379 00:22:46,406 --> 00:22:49,106 Speaker 2: Fred and Verna had followed the old real estate adage, 380 00:22:49,606 --> 00:22:51,666 Speaker 2: buy the worst house on the best block. 381 00:22:52,266 --> 00:22:54,666 Speaker 14: And I don't know the story of how Fred came 382 00:22:54,706 --> 00:22:57,906 Speaker 14: to get that house. And even in Malibu, that's an 383 00:22:57,966 --> 00:22:59,086 Speaker 14: exclusive address. 384 00:23:00,006 --> 00:23:02,966 Speaker 2: Right behind the house was Verna's Broadbeach property, which she 385 00:23:03,006 --> 00:23:06,356 Speaker 2: was renting out. And out the front door was glorious 386 00:23:06,446 --> 00:23:10,046 Speaker 2: Lechuza Beach. And it was essentially private. 387 00:23:10,786 --> 00:23:14,146 Speaker 14: It's a beautiful, beautiful beach. And, you know, it is 388 00:23:14,206 --> 00:23:18,746 Speaker 14: the high-rent district. I mean, Eisner lived behind him, and 389 00:23:19,486 --> 00:23:24,186 Speaker 14: Spielberg lived a few doors away, and Allie McGraw was 390 00:23:24,366 --> 00:23:24,846 Speaker 14: right there. 391 00:23:25,966 --> 00:23:29,246 Speaker 2: The last time Fred Inverno's former property changed hands, in 2018, 392 00:23:29,226 --> 00:23:29,766 Speaker 2: it sold for $ 11. 393 00:23:29,666 --> 00:23:30,066 Speaker 1: 4 million. 394 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:42,176 Speaker 2: Once they'd settled into the house on Sea Level Drive, 395 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:45,836 Speaker 2: Fred and Verna got married on Luchusa Beach. The minister 396 00:23:45,856 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 2: from the Methodist Church performed the ceremony and played Gene's 397 00:23:49,476 --> 00:23:52,816 Speaker 2: baby grand piano, which Fred and his groomsmen had carried 398 00:23:52,856 --> 00:23:56,656 Speaker 2: down to the sand. Friends and family, and their new neighbors, 399 00:23:56,776 --> 00:24:02,166 Speaker 2: came out to wish them well. It was Christmastime, 1977. 400 00:24:02,166 --> 00:24:05,626 Speaker 2: Bill had been dead for two years, Gene for 14 months. 401 00:24:06,526 --> 00:24:11,986 Speaker 2: Fred and Verna had rebounded, and were thriving. Hattie was seven, 402 00:24:12,246 --> 00:24:14,026 Speaker 2: and she has clear memories of that day. 403 00:24:15,326 --> 00:24:17,386 Speaker 6: People would say, oh, it was a Brady Bunch story. 404 00:24:18,226 --> 00:24:22,266 Speaker 6: It was a family wedding, and I remember shopping for dresses. 405 00:24:23,136 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 6: Now I laugh at the dresses. They were long, white 406 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:29,636 Speaker 6: dresses with red polka dots and red ruffles that we 407 00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 6: wore and with brown boots, and my brother was in 408 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:35,336 Speaker 6: a little sailor-like, you know, suit thing. But it was 409 00:24:35,416 --> 00:24:39,066 Speaker 6: always our weddings. We felt very included in everything they did. 410 00:24:39,086 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 2: It was like the whole family got married. Fred and 411 00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 2: Verna gave rings to each other and to their new stepkids. 412 00:24:47,576 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 8: It was a six-ring ceremony. 413 00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:53,886 Speaker 2: Fred got down on one knee and asked Kim and Doug. 414 00:24:55,046 --> 00:24:56,946 Speaker 8: Something to the effect of, do you want to join 415 00:24:57,006 --> 00:25:00,126 Speaker 8: our family and allow me to be your dad or 416 00:25:00,146 --> 00:25:04,506 Speaker 8: something like that. It was so emotional. It was funny 417 00:25:04,526 --> 00:25:07,216 Speaker 8: because we both When we were teasing, when Verna and 418 00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:09,716 Speaker 8: I were teasing each other, we said we want them 419 00:25:09,776 --> 00:25:12,626 Speaker 8: to say at least once that they wanted to be 420 00:25:12,646 --> 00:25:14,516 Speaker 8: a part of this, you know, officially. 421 00:25:15,506 --> 00:25:18,346 Speaker 2: Verna's ring had each of the children's birthstones embedded in 422 00:25:18,366 --> 00:25:21,886 Speaker 2: the band. Fred's and the kids' rings were gold, with 423 00:25:21,926 --> 00:25:23,526 Speaker 2: a texture like a gold nugget. 424 00:25:24,266 --> 00:25:28,906 Speaker 8: Mine's the nugget sort of shot. It's been worn down. 425 00:25:28,926 --> 00:25:33,766 Speaker 8: It's sort of smooth. It's sort of an abstract design. 426 00:25:33,806 --> 00:25:36,696 Speaker 8: If you look at it, We all think we can 427 00:25:36,736 --> 00:25:42,536 Speaker 8: see hearts in it. But, you know, that's the eye 428 00:25:42,576 --> 00:25:43,336 Speaker 8: of the beholder. 429 00:25:43,936 --> 00:25:44,976 Speaker 2: Do you still wear that ring? 430 00:25:46,216 --> 00:25:50,116 Speaker 8: Oh, yes. Yeah. Was Verna, would you say she was 431 00:25:50,176 --> 00:25:57,696 Speaker 8: the love of your life? Yes. Everything just really came together. 432 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:04,106 Speaker 8: We were on the same wavelength on, you know, just 433 00:26:04,126 --> 00:26:05,986 Speaker 8: about everything that you can imagine. 434 00:26:06,566 --> 00:26:09,986 Speaker 1: This call and your telephone number will be monitored and recorded. 435 00:26:11,326 --> 00:26:14,086 Speaker 2: Later, when he was in jail awaiting trial for Verna 436 00:26:14,106 --> 00:26:18,276 Speaker 2: and Doug's murders, Fred wrote down some notes about this time. Quote, 437 00:26:18,536 --> 00:26:20,896 Speaker 2: we were living a dream that can never be duplicated, 438 00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:24,496 Speaker 2: merging of two families in all the best ways possible. 439 00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:29,736 Speaker 2: And to many people around them, they did seem blissfully happy. 440 00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:34,856 Speaker 2: A family friend remembered Fred as, quote, sexy, wearing shoes 441 00:26:34,896 --> 00:26:37,896 Speaker 2: with no socks, whipping up orange daiquiris to drink with 442 00:26:37,936 --> 00:26:41,876 Speaker 2: Verna as the sun went down. This is their neighbor, 443 00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:43,936 Speaker 2: Dottie Menville, in an archival interview. 444 00:26:44,856 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 1: Just the way they looked at. 445 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:49,496 Speaker 10: Each other and touched each other and made efforts to 446 00:26:50,516 --> 00:26:56,856 Speaker 10: be attractive and make time together and she was always 447 00:26:56,876 --> 00:27:03,916 Speaker 10: I mean, I got the impression that they made love 448 00:27:04,136 --> 00:27:06,406 Speaker 10: even in the daytime if they felt like it. And 449 00:27:06,426 --> 00:27:08,626 Speaker 10: those kids were well-trained not to even knock if their 450 00:27:08,646 --> 00:27:09,386 Speaker 10: door was shut. 451 00:27:11,986 --> 00:27:13,546 Speaker 2: This is Fred's brother, Ron. 452 00:27:14,566 --> 00:27:16,166 Speaker 7: I think Vernon was the best thing that ever happened 453 00:27:16,186 --> 00:27:19,186 Speaker 7: to Fred. I saw him come out of this depression 454 00:27:19,226 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 7: state that I saw him go into, which I solely 455 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:27,356 Speaker 7: attributed to Vernon. I was somewhat skeptical at the beginning, 456 00:27:28,256 --> 00:27:30,536 Speaker 7: and I thought it worked out just extremely well. 457 00:27:31,626 --> 00:27:34,746 Speaker 2: Fred started coaching the kids in sports, and the neighbors 458 00:27:34,826 --> 00:27:38,376 Speaker 2: often saw them running together on the beach. This is 459 00:27:38,456 --> 00:27:40,976 Speaker 2: Marnie Strecker. She played soccer with Heidi. 460 00:27:42,016 --> 00:27:43,916 Speaker 1: I want to call us the sunshine team. 461 00:27:43,936 --> 00:27:48,176 Speaker 15: We had yellow uniforms, you know, so we'd go to practices, 462 00:27:48,256 --> 00:27:51,856 Speaker 15: and he'd have practice out in front on the sand. And, 463 00:27:52,686 --> 00:27:56,286 Speaker 15: you know, it was just a typical, active, you know, 464 00:27:56,526 --> 00:27:58,626 Speaker 15: sports sort of oriented family. 465 00:27:59,666 --> 00:28:00,786 Speaker 1: And they just seemed really happy. 466 00:28:01,656 --> 00:28:04,926 Speaker 2: She and Heidi were, and are, extremely close. 467 00:28:06,286 --> 00:28:08,646 Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time at their home. 468 00:28:08,686 --> 00:28:11,866 Speaker 15: They would come to our house, you know, having lunches 469 00:28:11,966 --> 00:28:16,086 Speaker 15: or spending the weekends together and, you know, just playing. And, 470 00:28:16,456 --> 00:28:20,496 Speaker 15: you know, that's my memory of them. Verna was just 471 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:27,006 Speaker 15: a kind, incredible, you know, sweet woman. She was took 472 00:28:28,086 --> 00:28:31,726 Speaker 15: Kirsten and Heidi in as her very own. And I'd 473 00:28:31,766 --> 00:28:35,006 Speaker 15: say the same for Fred. And they immediately were calling 474 00:28:35,026 --> 00:28:37,386 Speaker 15: each other sisters and brother. 475 00:28:37,506 --> 00:28:41,886 Speaker 1: And it just seemed like the perfect. 476 00:28:41,586 --> 00:28:45,736 Speaker 15: Match in my mind. And to this day, Heidi calls 477 00:28:45,766 --> 00:28:48,796 Speaker 15: Verna her mom. And that's not something you see very 478 00:28:48,896 --> 00:28:52,996 Speaker 15: often when there's a combined family. And she obviously lost 479 00:28:53,036 --> 00:28:56,276 Speaker 15: her mom, but Verna was a mom to them, you know, 480 00:28:56,336 --> 00:28:57,696 Speaker 15: and Fred was a father to them. 481 00:28:58,816 --> 00:29:02,536 Speaker 2: Verna had ideas about how to reinforce positive behavior, sharing 482 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:06,316 Speaker 2: with a sibling, cooperating with a parent. Those behaviors would 483 00:29:06,336 --> 00:29:10,266 Speaker 2: be rewarded with a warm fuzzy, not a Kahlua cappuccino. 484 00:29:10,506 --> 00:29:13,006 Speaker 2: This was something for the kids. This is Heidi. 485 00:29:14,786 --> 00:29:17,266 Speaker 6: So what my father did is at his work, he 486 00:29:17,306 --> 00:29:21,126 Speaker 6: had made tokens with our names on them. And I 487 00:29:21,186 --> 00:29:22,246 Speaker 6: still have some of them. 488 00:29:23,526 --> 00:29:23,686 Speaker 8: And. 489 00:29:24,646 --> 00:29:27,826 Speaker 6: Every night after dinner, we would sit down and we 490 00:29:27,846 --> 00:29:30,536 Speaker 6: would all take turns saying all the things we did 491 00:29:30,616 --> 00:29:36,376 Speaker 6: that were positive or helpful. Warm, fuzzy. So I helped 492 00:29:36,396 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 6: set the table and then we could get one out 493 00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:40,886 Speaker 6: of the jar. And so we'd go through, but then 494 00:29:40,906 --> 00:29:42,946 Speaker 6: they would come back and go, but you didn't make 495 00:29:42,986 --> 00:29:45,666 Speaker 6: your bed. So then it would go back in the jar. 496 00:29:45,686 --> 00:29:51,496 Speaker 6: Kim just raked in the tokens. She's just listing all 497 00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:54,656 Speaker 6: the things. And I'm thinking, oh, tomorrow I am going 498 00:29:54,676 --> 00:29:57,856 Speaker 6: to set the table so I can get a token. 499 00:29:59,476 --> 00:30:01,976 Speaker 2: The kids had known each other their whole lives, from 500 00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:05,186 Speaker 2: preschool and playdates at Verna's house on Broad Beach and 501 00:30:05,266 --> 00:30:09,176 Speaker 2: swim lessons at the house on Calpine. Amazingly, they did 502 00:30:09,216 --> 00:30:12,656 Speaker 2: not become rivals now. Maybe it helped that their ages 503 00:30:12,696 --> 00:30:16,996 Speaker 2: were staggered. It went Verna's Kim, then Fred's Heidi, then 504 00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:21,366 Speaker 2: Verna's Doug, then Fred's Kirsten. They all just got along. 505 00:30:22,746 --> 00:30:26,086 Speaker 2: Fred and Verna couldn't believe how sweet life was, how 506 00:30:26,166 --> 00:30:30,946 Speaker 2: lucky they were. Their first spouses had died. Was it 507 00:30:31,046 --> 00:30:33,406 Speaker 2: wrong to be so happy in the wake of tragedy? 508 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:40,516 Speaker 2: Fred's friend Mike Killeen told investigators that this became the 509 00:30:40,556 --> 00:30:43,466 Speaker 2: subject of Fred and Verna's pinch-me pillow talk. 510 00:30:44,166 --> 00:30:47,706 Speaker 9: He said, Verna and I got to the point in 511 00:30:47,746 --> 00:30:49,986 Speaker 9: our relationship where at night when we lay in bed, 512 00:30:50,606 --> 00:30:54,856 Speaker 9: we would ask one another the question, if the other 513 00:30:54,916 --> 00:30:58,176 Speaker 9: person were to come back today, they both lost somebody, 514 00:30:59,376 --> 00:31:03,546 Speaker 9: who would you take? And we both agreed, he said, 515 00:31:03,646 --> 00:31:09,726 Speaker 9: that we would take one another because that's how perfect 516 00:31:09,806 --> 00:31:10,766 Speaker 9: our relationship was. 517 00:31:12,176 --> 00:31:15,576 Speaker 2: Life was just better than it had been with Bill 518 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:26,046 Speaker 2: and Jean. This caught the attention of the Santa Barbara detectives, too, 519 00:31:26,926 --> 00:31:29,566 Speaker 2: especially when they began to focus on the timeline of 520 00:31:29,666 --> 00:31:34,676 Speaker 2: Fred's romance with Verna. Later, Fred would be called upon 521 00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:38,676 Speaker 2: to account for his whereabouts on December 1st, 1975, the 522 00:31:39,416 --> 00:31:44,506 Speaker 2: day Bill Johnson plunged to his death. Because the more 523 00:31:44,566 --> 00:31:47,606 Speaker 2: the detectives learned about Fred Raylor, the more they were 524 00:31:47,646 --> 00:31:51,146 Speaker 2: starting to think. He was not a victim of these 525 00:31:51,206 --> 00:32:03,166 Speaker 2: terrible circumstances, but the architect. Coming up on the next 526 00:32:03,226 --> 00:32:07,426 Speaker 2: episode of Lost Hills, it's neighbor against neighbor, and who 527 00:32:07,486 --> 00:32:08,466 Speaker 2: knows what to think. 528 00:32:09,206 --> 00:32:11,866 Speaker 7: Since January, this is the top of the town, and 529 00:32:11,906 --> 00:32:13,986 Speaker 7: immediately there was the division. 530 00:32:14,046 --> 00:32:16,216 Speaker 1: You know, who couldn't possibly have done that. 531 00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:17,416 Speaker 4: Yeah, and. 532 00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:19,056 Speaker 5: Yes, he probably did. 533 00:32:19,096 --> 00:32:19,896 Speaker 1: Yeah, he probably did. 534 00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:21,656 Speaker 10: And I mean, I have those feelings. 535 00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:23,936 Speaker 7: Some days I think he couldn't possibly have done this. 536 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:24,876 Speaker 9: This is just too horrible. 537 00:32:24,916 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 1: Couldn't possibly. 538 00:32:25,636 --> 00:32:26,516 Speaker 10: And then other days I think. 539 00:32:27,016 --> 00:32:27,856 Speaker 1: But what if he did? 540 00:32:29,206 --> 00:32:36,536 Speaker 2: That's next in Episode 6... Cold Pricklies. Lost Hills is 541 00:32:36,576 --> 00:32:40,036 Speaker 2: written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's created by 542 00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:43,406 Speaker 2: me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and 543 00:32:43,466 --> 00:32:47,326 Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear 544 00:32:47,346 --> 00:32:49,966 Speaker 2: the whole season ad-free and get early access to the 545 00:32:50,026 --> 00:32:53,526 Speaker 2: final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills 546 00:32:53,546 --> 00:32:55,966 Speaker 2: show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.