1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:26,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, died, she inherited 2 00:00:26,636 --> 00:00:30,236 Speaker 1: their duplex on Broadbeach in Malibu. She and her kids, 3 00:00:30,356 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 1: Kim and Doug, lived in one half, and in early 4 00:00:33,276 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six she rented out the other half to 5 00:00:35,876 --> 00:00:39,196 Speaker 1: her friends Patty and John Lyttel and their two kids. 6 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:44,476 Speaker 1: Patty soon met Jean Rayler. The three of them, Patty, Verna, 7 00:00:44,516 --> 00:00:47,516 Speaker 1: and Jean all had kids around the same age, so 8 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:52,356 Speaker 1: they started spending a lot of time together. On October fifteenth, 9 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:55,276 Speaker 1: the day Jean went into a coma, Patty had spent 10 00:00:55,316 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 1: the day at home babysitting Fred and Jean's younger daughter. 11 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 1: Patty didn't find out that Jeanne was in the hospital 12 00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 1: until the next morning. Here she is telling the story 13 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:07,436 Speaker 1: to an investigator while on break from her job at 14 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:10,236 Speaker 1: the bank. Want to get my hair done that day, 15 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:12,196 Speaker 1: and Vernon came running out of her side of the house, 16 00:01:12,796 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: you know, just hysterical and told me what had happened. Yeah. 17 00:01:17,716 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: After Jean's memorial service, Patty and Verna went to a 18 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:24,636 Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant Inventura called the Red Onion. As they sat 19 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:28,556 Speaker 1: there trying to process everything that had just happened, their vibrant, 20 00:01:28,636 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: confident friend dead at thirty four. Under such ambiguous and 21 00:01:33,356 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: bizarre circumstances, they allowed themselves to think the unthinkable. What 22 00:01:39,276 --> 00:01:43,636 Speaker 1: if Fred had murdered her? Verna had made such a 23 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:49,756 Speaker 1: big deal, you know, after Jeane died, she'd speculated, we 24 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:53,676 Speaker 1: both speculated whether he appealed her then, I remember, because 25 00:01:53,676 --> 00:01:55,356 Speaker 1: they were seeing it from the red Onion invented her 26 00:01:55,436 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: at the funeral and we had sat there getting drinks 27 00:02:02,876 --> 00:02:07,156 Speaker 1: redon numerous times, getting drunk because whither he janit or not. 28 00:02:08,556 --> 00:02:11,236 Speaker 1: But whatever Verna thought at the time of Jean's memorial, 29 00:02:11,716 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: she soon changed her mind because Verna had fallen for Fred. 30 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:52,476 Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills Episode five. 31 00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: Who would You Take? Verna Johnson worked at the preschool 32 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 1: where Fred and Jean sent their older daughter, Heidi. It 33 00:03:01,836 --> 00:03:05,556 Speaker 1: was part of Malibu Methodist Church. Fred remembers how his 34 00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:09,076 Speaker 1: first wife, Jean, befriended Verna, the woman who would become 35 00:03:09,356 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 1: his second wife. She had actually found Verna at the 36 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:18,716 Speaker 1: nursery school, and Verna said that she would babysit the kids. 37 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 1: Jean was a little bit older than Verna, more worldly 38 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:25,876 Speaker 1: and ambitious. She'd been to college where she studied music 39 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,276 Speaker 1: and had a busy career as a flight attendant. Verna 40 00:03:29,396 --> 00:03:32,276 Speaker 1: went to beauty school and then was a housewife before 41 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 1: she started at the preschool where she sent her kids. 42 00:03:35,436 --> 00:03:38,516 Speaker 1: But they related, Jean and Verna just seemed to get 43 00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 1: along well. They'd go to concerts together and share a 44 00:03:42,356 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 1: glass of wine when Jean would pick up Hidie and 45 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:48,636 Speaker 1: Kirsten from Verna's house on Broadbeach. It was definitely more 46 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 1: the women's connection. Fred says he really only knew Verna 47 00:03:54,756 --> 00:03:57,636 Speaker 1: casually from the occasional drop off her pickup on the 48 00:03:57,676 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 1: way to and from his job up the coast at 49 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:03,396 Speaker 1: Point Magoo. Jean and Verna were friends, and the kids 50 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 1: were all friends, but the husbands, Fred and Bill hadn't 51 00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:11,636 Speaker 1: spent much time together. Bill he had raced sports cars 52 00:04:11,716 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: for a while. He had built a little Porsche speech Jurgle, 53 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:19,356 Speaker 1: and he had a helmet and gloves, and the kids 54 00:04:19,436 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 1: used to enjoy putting them on and running around the 55 00:04:21,876 --> 00:04:25,916 Speaker 1: house at his place. And I think at the time 56 00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: I had tried hang gliding, and he actually thought that 57 00:04:31,316 --> 00:04:36,156 Speaker 1: that might be something that he was interested in. But 58 00:04:36,276 --> 00:04:38,276 Speaker 1: before they had a chance to get to know each other. 59 00:04:38,756 --> 00:04:41,716 Speaker 1: Bill fell from the building where he was working and died. 60 00:04:42,516 --> 00:04:46,116 Speaker 1: It was December first, nineteen seventy five. It was a 61 00:04:46,116 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 1: hell of a a surprise to everybody. We were all shocked 62 00:04:50,436 --> 00:04:54,756 Speaker 1: that Bill had died. No one knew that he had 63 00:04:54,796 --> 00:04:58,756 Speaker 1: taken his life. It just seemed like it was you know, 64 00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: he had fallen from a high rise, and since he 65 00:05:01,436 --> 00:05:08,316 Speaker 1: was an electrician who built and wired high rises, no 66 00:05:08,316 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 1: one and I was suspected that it had been a suicide. 67 00:05:13,516 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 1: Of course, Jeane stopped taking the kids down there because 68 00:05:17,596 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 1: Verna was really quite upset after Bill's death. Jeane reached 69 00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 1: out to Verna, asking her to come to dinner at 70 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:29,836 Speaker 1: the house on Calpine. Fred said it was the first 71 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:32,956 Speaker 1: time he'd spent more than fifteen minutes in Verna's company. 72 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:36,516 Speaker 1: Jean said, I've invited Vernon and her mother and the 73 00:05:36,596 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 1: kids up for dinner, and I said, oh, that's terrific. 74 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:43,356 Speaker 1: So it went very well. They came to our house 75 00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:46,116 Speaker 1: and that was the first time I had met Camelia, 76 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:50,516 Speaker 1: Verna's mother, And of course we didn't talk about still 77 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:53,036 Speaker 1: or the death or thing, just more about the kids 78 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:58,796 Speaker 1: and school and things like that. The kids got along fine, 79 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:03,396 Speaker 1: and the adults got into some wine and felt a 80 00:06:03,436 --> 00:06:08,316 Speaker 1: little better. Eventually. Fred says he'd learned more about Bell 81 00:06:09,516 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 1: later on after we married, well actually before we married. 82 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:17,636 Speaker 1: She told me he had been dealing with bipolar or 83 00:06:17,676 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: in some very heavy issues. Either the medication wasn't enough, 84 00:06:21,556 --> 00:06:25,236 Speaker 1: or you know, something was going on. But I mean, 85 00:06:25,556 --> 00:06:30,916 Speaker 1: Verna was literally the perfect wife. She was sweet, she 86 00:06:31,116 --> 00:06:36,316 Speaker 1: was beautiful, she was all those things. Once Bill was 87 00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:40,716 Speaker 1: gone and Jean was gone, Verna would become his perfect 88 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 1: wife for a little while. Anyway. Several months after Bill died, 89 00:06:52,556 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 1: Verna had started dating a bit, and in the summer 90 00:06:55,156 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy six she was seeing a local swim instructor. 91 00:06:58,996 --> 00:07:01,676 Speaker 1: He was actually teaching her kids and the Railer kids 92 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 1: to swim in the pool at the Kalpine House. That 93 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:07,036 Speaker 1: was the summer Fred was in Hawaii and he and 94 00:07:07,116 --> 00:07:11,596 Speaker 1: Jean were falling apart, but by fall Vernon was single again, 95 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 1: and when Jean died in late October, she was willing 96 00:07:14,956 --> 00:07:20,156 Speaker 1: to help out Fred newly widowed himself, so on October thirty, first, 97 00:07:20,196 --> 00:07:23,476 Speaker 1: ten days after Jean was taken off the respirator, Vernon 98 00:07:23,556 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 1: and Fred decided to go trick or treating together with 99 00:07:26,116 --> 00:07:30,316 Speaker 1: the kids. And then probably the first time we did 100 00:07:30,356 --> 00:07:39,796 Speaker 1: anything together was for Halloween. Patty Lightel and her two 101 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:43,516 Speaker 1: children and Vernon and her two children came up and 102 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:48,076 Speaker 1: the three of us decorated all the kids because Heidi 103 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 1: wanted to be an angel, and that was pretty heavy. 104 00:07:58,996 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 1: Her mother had died ten days earlier. She wanted to 105 00:08:02,396 --> 00:08:06,836 Speaker 1: be an angel like her mom. And so we did 106 00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: a trick or treating thing with all the kids, and 107 00:08:11,516 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 1: that's basically how things get started. That's the moment Fred 108 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:21,836 Speaker 1: marks as the beginning of his life with Verna. To recap, 109 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:26,836 Speaker 1: Bill dies on December first, nineteen seventy five, Verna, the 110 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:29,836 Speaker 1: babysitter and friend of Jean, comes over for dinner at 111 00:08:29,876 --> 00:08:34,156 Speaker 1: the Coalpine House. Jean falls into a coma on October fifteenth, 112 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, and dies on October twenty first. Just 113 00:08:38,876 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 1: days afterward, Patty recalls Verna speculates that Fred could have 114 00:08:42,636 --> 00:08:47,396 Speaker 1: killed Jean. But then on Halloween, Verna and Fred take 115 00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:50,436 Speaker 1: their kids trick or treating, and soon she's taking care 116 00:08:50,476 --> 00:08:54,156 Speaker 1: of his kids again. And then Fred and Verna are 117 00:08:54,196 --> 00:09:00,156 Speaker 1: the ones sharing a glass of wine together. The way 118 00:09:00,196 --> 00:09:02,836 Speaker 1: Fred tells it, it made all the sense in the world. 119 00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:06,556 Speaker 1: We did start doing more things. We were we were 120 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:11,316 Speaker 1: waiting dinners, so I would fixed center for Vernon and 121 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:16,236 Speaker 1: her children and obviously my two at my house, and 122 00:09:16,436 --> 00:09:19,356 Speaker 1: then a day or so later, Vernon would have us 123 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: down to her place for dinner, and we bounced that 124 00:09:23,876 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 1: back and forth. They were too recently bereaved adults with 125 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:32,556 Speaker 1: four little kids between them. Well, the interesting thing is 126 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 1: the kids basically sort of sent something before I really did. 127 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:44,636 Speaker 1: I was still sort of stunned, and the kids would 128 00:09:44,676 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 1: be all four of them would be together, and then 129 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:51,756 Speaker 1: they actually said at one point, you know, why don't 130 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 1: YouTube get together, or something to that effect, and we 131 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 1: sort of laughed it off. But I think I think 132 00:09:59,556 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 1: Heidi and Kirsen and Kimberly still remember that. Actually they 133 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:08,436 Speaker 1: don't remember I asked them. But this has always been 134 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: part of the crew creation myth of Fred and Verna, 135 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:14,156 Speaker 1: that it was about the kids and what they wanted. 136 00:10:15,116 --> 00:10:18,716 Speaker 1: In Fred's telling, Verna was pushing him to define the relationship. 137 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: Verna said something to the effective you know, if you 138 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:26,196 Speaker 1: ever change your mind, or if you're whenever you're ready, 139 00:10:26,476 --> 00:10:30,276 Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to see you and and I said, okay. 140 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:32,876 Speaker 1: She said, you know, I don't want to. I don't 141 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 1: want to feew on the rebound. And then later on 142 00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:38,316 Speaker 1: you'll decide that, you know, this is not something that 143 00:10:38,476 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 1: you want. You know, you really ought to date other people. 144 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: And of course I said, oh, that's a terrible like 145 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:47,596 Speaker 1: you like, I don't want to do other people. But 146 00:10:47,756 --> 00:10:52,156 Speaker 1: then I did d Gail. After that that resulted in 147 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 1: a little love triangle with Jeane's old friend Candy Henman 148 00:10:56,036 --> 00:11:00,036 Speaker 1: as a go between. And then when Verna found that out, 149 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 1: she was mad at me. And I said, well, he 150 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: told me to date other people. She said, yeah, but 151 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:09,516 Speaker 1: I really, I really didn't mean that. And Gail had 152 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 1: already said that she didn't want to date anymore because 153 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:18,396 Speaker 1: Candy had told her about Verna. And I didn't lie 154 00:11:18,436 --> 00:11:24,196 Speaker 1: about Verna. So that's basically when we were pretty pretty 155 00:11:24,196 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: sure we were going to stay together. Fred and Jean 156 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:29,476 Speaker 1: had sent their kids to the nursery school at Malibu 157 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:33,596 Speaker 1: Methodist but had never gone to church there. Verna, on 158 00:11:33,676 --> 00:11:35,876 Speaker 1: the other hand, was both a teacher there and a 159 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:38,956 Speaker 1: devout member of the congregation. She and her husband Bill 160 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 1: had attended regularly. After Jean died, Fred started showing up 161 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:46,076 Speaker 1: at Sunday services and made an effort to get to 162 00:11:46,156 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 1: know the minister. This is Verna's friend, Michelle Williams. She 163 00:11:50,996 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: was a fellow member of the congregation and also taught 164 00:11:53,716 --> 00:11:56,956 Speaker 1: with Verna at the church nursery school. She's being interviewed 165 00:11:56,996 --> 00:12:00,076 Speaker 1: by an investigator. How did you first find out that 166 00:12:00,236 --> 00:12:03,836 Speaker 1: Verna and Fred were starting to get more involved with 167 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:08,636 Speaker 1: each other. I'm not sure. I think maybe it was 168 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:12,956 Speaker 1: because as Fred started going to the church and they 169 00:12:13,076 --> 00:12:18,396 Speaker 1: started talking to the church. It seemed to me that 170 00:12:19,116 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways people thought that it was obvious, 171 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 1: but it wasn't as obvious to me as it may 172 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 1: have been to others. And I don't know. I don't 173 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:31,596 Speaker 1: think I was one of the first to suspect that 174 00:12:31,716 --> 00:12:34,196 Speaker 1: they were seeing each other really, because they were. It 175 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 1: was just one of those things that they had always 176 00:12:36,916 --> 00:12:39,236 Speaker 1: kind of known each other and dropped kids off back 177 00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:41,916 Speaker 1: and forth. And as I say, Vernon, when I talked 178 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:45,676 Speaker 1: to her recently, she remembered that at least at Malibu Methodist, 179 00:12:46,116 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 1: there was a lot of support for the new couple. 180 00:12:48,956 --> 00:12:53,876 Speaker 1: We were so happy because Vernon had been widowed and Fred, 181 00:12:54,236 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: you know, lost Jeane and to see the two of 182 00:12:58,196 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 1: them together and to get married, that was just the 183 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:06,756 Speaker 1: happiest experience that we had, and as friends and as 184 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:11,956 Speaker 1: a church as well, everyone was just thrilled. Candy Henman 185 00:13:12,036 --> 00:13:15,956 Speaker 1: says this extended to the preschool community too. Fred, in 186 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:18,956 Speaker 1: her view, got a hall pass for his treatment of Gene. 187 00:13:19,636 --> 00:13:23,596 Speaker 1: He played the role of rescuer to the hilt. I 188 00:13:23,716 --> 00:13:26,396 Speaker 1: think everybody at the nursery school thought he was just 189 00:13:26,556 --> 00:13:29,156 Speaker 1: a god because of how he swooped in and took 190 00:13:29,196 --> 00:13:31,596 Speaker 1: care of the children and then started taking here of 191 00:13:31,716 --> 00:13:35,476 Speaker 1: Verna and her children, just by being mister Wonderful at 192 00:13:35,516 --> 00:13:38,236 Speaker 1: the nursery school and taking care of the kids and 193 00:13:38,396 --> 00:13:43,716 Speaker 1: being the ideal father. And Verna was so respected by everybody, 194 00:13:43,796 --> 00:13:46,596 Speaker 1: and the fact that she then fell in love with 195 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 1: him and they were together. I think that whole thing 196 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:54,436 Speaker 1: was just a cover up of how he is. Verna 197 00:13:54,596 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 1: was beloved in Malibu. That she loved Fred and believed him. 198 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 1: It kind of made everyone forget about Jean. After Jean's death, 199 00:14:24,476 --> 00:14:27,516 Speaker 1: Verna had some explaining to do. She had been a 200 00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 1: very close friend of Jean's and part of a circle 201 00:14:30,476 --> 00:14:33,956 Speaker 1: of women to whom Jean had confessed her troubles. All 202 00:14:34,076 --> 00:14:36,956 Speaker 1: Jean's friends in Malibu knew what she'd been saying about Fred, 203 00:14:37,596 --> 00:14:41,396 Speaker 1: that he was violent, and that she was afraid. Verna 204 00:14:41,516 --> 00:14:45,796 Speaker 1: had listened, consoled, and apparently even stashed Fred's gun when 205 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 1: Jean started to panic that Fred might use it on her. 206 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:53,436 Speaker 1: That time with Patty at the Red Onion after Jean's memorial, 207 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:56,836 Speaker 1: Verna had gone so far as to speculate that Fred 208 00:14:56,956 --> 00:15:00,956 Speaker 1: might have killed Jean in the swimming pool. But then 209 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:03,996 Speaker 1: she had a surprise for Patty about a week after 210 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: that conversation at the Red Onion. Then when they started 211 00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 1: seeing each other week or so later, she came out 212 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 1: and she said, you know, they were standing each other. 213 00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 1: And on top of that bombshell, Verna had to request 214 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:24,596 Speaker 1: and she was adamant about it. Whatever you heard from Jeane, 215 00:15:24,836 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: whatever I said about it, just forget it. She didn't 216 00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: want me to ever think any of the things that 217 00:15:30,196 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 1: we had talked about, which is really easy to save 218 00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 1: you exactly. And all the problems that Jeanne had told 219 00:15:37,396 --> 00:15:41,116 Speaker 1: us about his sexual problems, they just didn't exist with them. 220 00:15:41,276 --> 00:15:43,316 Speaker 1: And I was to forget all of that, you know, 221 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: and if I was a good friend and I just 222 00:15:45,076 --> 00:15:48,636 Speaker 1: forget about that. Verna had done a one eighty on 223 00:15:48,836 --> 00:15:53,076 Speaker 1: all things Fred, starting with Jean's death. Kue, do you 224 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:57,156 Speaker 1: think at the time that she believed that Jean's death 225 00:15:57,276 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: was actually I think that she did. She would have 226 00:16:00,636 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 1: almost in hand she I think she did. Fred had 227 00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:07,356 Speaker 1: managed to explain it all away. You'd have to know Burn. 228 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 1: I mean, I just loved her, dear little bitness. She 229 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 1: wasn't well smart, and if she wanted to believe something 230 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:14,636 Speaker 1: bad enough, I think she Well, any of us can do, 231 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 1: Vince bisec anything, and I think that maybe that's what 232 00:16:19,756 --> 00:16:21,916 Speaker 1: the situation was it. You know, how can you get 233 00:16:21,956 --> 00:16:24,196 Speaker 1: into side side of these kids? All I can do. 234 00:16:24,316 --> 00:16:29,156 Speaker 1: Patti later told investigators that Fred quote fooled Verna completely. 235 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 1: When Verna told her sister Julianne that she was dating Fred, 236 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 1: Julianne was worried. Julienne told an investigator that she'd been 237 00:16:44,436 --> 00:16:47,196 Speaker 1: put off by the stories that Jean had told about Fred. 238 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:49,636 Speaker 1: That day they took the kids to the amusement park. 239 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,676 Speaker 1: I didn't talk to my sister about it much after either, 240 00:16:54,276 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: until she started dating Fred Mark, and I was concerned 241 00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 1: at that point, and she says, well, Fred and I 242 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:04,036 Speaker 1: have talked about what Jean told me and talked to 243 00:17:04,116 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 1: me about and she said, he and I have really 244 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:09,436 Speaker 1: done a lot of talking, because she says, I felt 245 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: it was only fair to Frail to let him know 246 00:17:12,556 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 1: what Jane was saying at that point? Did did Verna 247 00:17:16,876 --> 00:17:20,036 Speaker 1: ever tell you that she had heard all the rumors 248 00:17:20,196 --> 00:17:23,996 Speaker 1: of the suspicions that various people had about Jane's death? 249 00:17:25,476 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: Can you expound on that little bit? I said, are 250 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 1: you sure things you know are okay? And she said yes, 251 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:34,156 Speaker 1: she said, Fred and I have talked at length about it. 252 00:17:34,836 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 1: He's gone over the accident with me, and Verna even 253 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:41,916 Speaker 1: told me what someone you know that they had been 254 00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:44,596 Speaker 1: in the hot tip together and Jeane had kept saying 255 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:46,676 Speaker 1: that the water was very warm, and Fred kept turning 256 00:17:46,676 --> 00:17:51,596 Speaker 1: the water down, and yeah, shed Fred to go check 257 00:17:51,676 --> 00:17:54,636 Speaker 1: on Kirston. Fred I supposed had gone into the house. 258 00:17:54,676 --> 00:17:56,316 Speaker 1: He had Jeane had told Brna that he had gone 259 00:17:56,316 --> 00:17:59,916 Speaker 1: into the house, and or Fred told burnus I'm sorry 260 00:18:00,716 --> 00:18:04,596 Speaker 1: and checked on Kirsten, changed her pants and brought Jeane 261 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:06,436 Speaker 1: back a glass of wine and found her in the 262 00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:10,156 Speaker 1: cold water. And that's all right. And that's all we 263 00:18:10,236 --> 00:18:13,876 Speaker 1: elaborated on. But I'm just concerned from my sister because 264 00:18:14,036 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I don't want her to get 265 00:18:16,356 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 1: involved with something good, you know, with terrible from the 266 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 1: part Later, evidently, Verna was satisfied with Fred's version of events. 267 00:18:29,036 --> 00:18:32,596 Speaker 1: After all, she was pursuing a relationship with them, so 268 00:18:32,756 --> 00:18:34,796 Speaker 1: she must have had a new way to think about 269 00:18:34,836 --> 00:18:37,316 Speaker 1: all the terrible things she'd heard about him from Jean. 270 00:18:38,396 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 1: Here's Fred's friend, Mike Killeen. The indication to me is 271 00:18:42,236 --> 00:18:45,596 Speaker 1: that she saw who the unstable person wants. You know, 272 00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:48,436 Speaker 1: if there's a nut in this relationship, yeah, I think 273 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:49,756 Speaker 1: to use the word not, but hey, if we're going 274 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:51,796 Speaker 1: to carry it that far, if there was a person 275 00:18:51,836 --> 00:18:55,316 Speaker 1: who wasn't stable, boy, that person was Gene Raider. Verna 276 00:18:55,436 --> 00:18:58,156 Speaker 1: started to think she'd been taken in by Jean's version 277 00:18:58,196 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 1: of events, judging Fred unfairly. Her friend Anne Louden explained 278 00:19:03,196 --> 00:19:08,436 Speaker 1: this to investigators. I think that because Verna was really 279 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:12,236 Speaker 1: Jeans friend, didn't really have any affiliation with Fred other 280 00:19:12,356 --> 00:19:15,876 Speaker 1: than he coming to pick the children up in her house, 281 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 1: she really didn't know Fred, and so she was basing 282 00:19:19,956 --> 00:19:23,916 Speaker 1: a lot of what happened on what Jean said, and 283 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:27,476 Speaker 1: she was a little uncomfortable that she had indicated. And 284 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 1: she said that before they were getting married, that they 285 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 1: had sat down and they talked this whole thing through 286 00:19:32,676 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 1: very completely and thoroughly. She was finished talking to Fred 287 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:40,476 Speaker 1: and Fred side of the story where she'd always heard 288 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,996 Speaker 1: Jean side of the relationship. She was very comfortable and 289 00:19:44,196 --> 00:19:47,596 Speaker 1: felt secure with what she was doing. There was a 290 00:19:47,676 --> 00:19:50,076 Speaker 1: lot of chatter in Malibu at that time. Out of 291 00:19:50,156 --> 00:19:53,636 Speaker 1: loyalty to Verna, some of her friends started defending Fred. 292 00:19:54,036 --> 00:19:56,276 Speaker 1: Two people came up to me and had made comments 293 00:19:56,316 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: and I just, did you really out of ways sher 294 00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 1: mouth episode? Because what you're saying is really decuated to 295 00:20:00,556 --> 00:20:02,396 Speaker 1: a lot of people. I don't want to hear it. 296 00:20:03,396 --> 00:20:05,916 Speaker 1: It was the beginning of the pattern. If you were 297 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: truly Verna's friend, you had to stand by Fred whenever 298 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 1: they actually started seeing each other. By the beginning of 299 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, Verna and Fred were officially an item. 300 00:20:21,436 --> 00:20:23,956 Speaker 1: She was still living on Broadbeach in the duplex she 301 00:20:24,036 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 1: shared with the Lttels, and Fred was across pch on Calpine. 302 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:31,396 Speaker 1: It was getting complicated, but we knew that they were 303 00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:33,236 Speaker 1: spending the night together, and it was a matter of 304 00:20:33,316 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 1: getting the kids up to go to school and get 305 00:20:35,036 --> 00:20:36,476 Speaker 1: the amount of time. And she came to me and 306 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:38,236 Speaker 1: she said, Anne, she said, you've got to tell me 307 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 1: how you feel about this. And I said what She said, 308 00:20:40,276 --> 00:20:42,836 Speaker 1: How do you feel about me and Fred living together? 309 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,156 Speaker 1: Said Verna, why do you worry about it? You know, 310 00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: I don't care, I said, I know. You guys are 311 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 1: getting married. If thus you the comfortableness, and you've got 312 00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:53,716 Speaker 1: these kids to do. I think it's perfectly here. I mean, 313 00:20:53,956 --> 00:20:55,876 Speaker 1: and the people who don't like you and are gonna talk, 314 00:20:56,036 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: gonna talk. Verna moved her kids out of the house 315 00:20:59,396 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 1: on Broadbeach, leaving Patty and her bad vibes behind. Now, Verna, Kim, 316 00:21:04,676 --> 00:21:07,956 Speaker 1: and Doug were living with Fred, Heidi, and Kirsten at 317 00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:12,436 Speaker 1: the house on Calpine, and the relationship well. Fred had 318 00:21:12,476 --> 00:21:16,116 Speaker 1: no complaints. He wrote that he and Verna quote had 319 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:19,716 Speaker 1: very good communication and very good sex, helped by a 320 00:21:19,756 --> 00:21:23,876 Speaker 1: half hour in the hot tub before going to bed unquote. 321 00:21:53,916 --> 00:21:56,716 Speaker 1: Soon Fred and Verna were presented with an incredible real 322 00:21:56,836 --> 00:22:00,756 Speaker 1: estate opportunity. The house on Sea Level Drive, a gated 323 00:22:00,836 --> 00:22:04,076 Speaker 1: dead end street off Broad Beach Road. I don't know 324 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:07,476 Speaker 1: whether we saw an ad in the paper or exactly 325 00:22:07,516 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 1: where he got the first lead, but when we found 326 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:14,436 Speaker 1: out that there was a place down there, and we 327 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:17,236 Speaker 1: took a look at us, and then we went into 328 00:22:17,356 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 1: the process of the purchase. They spent a little over 329 00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars about one point four million in 330 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 1: today's money, which they cobbled together through creative refinancing on 331 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:34,276 Speaker 1: their other properties. The house was quirky. Here's Fred's friend, 332 00:22:34,516 --> 00:22:38,756 Speaker 1: Mark Hatrick. Was this big, giant cement block house and 333 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: it was one of the ugliest houses ever in the world, 334 00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:44,396 Speaker 1: but it was in one of the most amazing spots 335 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:47,756 Speaker 1: ever in the world. Fred and Verna had followed the 336 00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:50,956 Speaker 1: old real estate adage by the worst house on the 337 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:53,596 Speaker 1: best block. And I don't know the story of how 338 00:22:53,996 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: Fred came to get that house. And even in Malibu, 339 00:22:57,596 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 1: that's an exclusive address. Right behind the house was Verna's 340 00:23:01,516 --> 00:23:04,716 Speaker 1: Broadbeach property, which she was renting out and out the 341 00:23:04,796 --> 00:23:09,996 Speaker 1: front door was glorious Lechuza Beach and it was essentially private. 342 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 1: It's a beautiful, beautiful beach and the you know, it 343 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:18,516 Speaker 1: is the high rent district. I mean Eisner lived behind him, 344 00:23:18,556 --> 00:23:23,836 Speaker 1: and Spielberg lived a few doors away, and Ali McGraw 345 00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:27,756 Speaker 1: was right there. The last time Fred and Verna's former 346 00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:31,956 Speaker 1: property changed hands in twenty eighteen, it sold for eleven 347 00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 1: point four million. Once they'd settled into the house on 348 00:23:41,356 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 1: Sea Level Drive, Fred and Verna got married on the 349 00:23:44,116 --> 00:23:47,396 Speaker 1: Choosa Beach. The minister from the Methodist Church performed the 350 00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:51,556 Speaker 1: ceremony and played Jean's baby grand piano, which Fred and 351 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:54,916 Speaker 1: his groomsmen had carried down to the sand. Friends and 352 00:23:55,036 --> 00:23:57,836 Speaker 1: family and their new neighbors came out to wish them well. 353 00:23:58,996 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 1: It was Christmas time nineteen seventy seven. Bill had been 354 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 1: dead for two years, Jean for fourteen months. Fred and 355 00:24:07,036 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 1: Verna had rebounded, were thriving. Hottie was seven and she 356 00:24:12,556 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 1: has clear memories of that day. People would say, oh, 357 00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 1: it is a Brady Bunch story. It was a family wedding, 358 00:24:20,356 --> 00:24:23,796 Speaker 1: and I remember shopping for dresses. Now I laugh at 359 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:26,956 Speaker 1: the dresses. They were long white dresses with red polka 360 00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:31,156 Speaker 1: dots and red ruffles that we wore, and with brown boots. 361 00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:33,916 Speaker 1: And my brother was in a little sailor like you 362 00:24:34,036 --> 00:24:36,836 Speaker 1: know suit thing. But it was always our wedding. We 363 00:24:37,036 --> 00:24:40,756 Speaker 1: felt very included and everything they did it was like 364 00:24:40,916 --> 00:24:44,196 Speaker 1: the whole family got married. Fred and Verna gave rings 365 00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 1: to each other and to their new step kids. It 366 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:51,236 Speaker 1: was a six ring ceremony. Fred got down on one 367 00:24:51,316 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 1: knee and asked Kim and Doug something to the effective 368 00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:59,236 Speaker 1: do you want to join our family here? Allowed me 369 00:24:59,356 --> 00:25:03,156 Speaker 1: to your dad do something like that. It was so emotional, 370 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:06,556 Speaker 1: and it was funny because we bought we were teasing 371 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:09,196 Speaker 1: you when Verna were teasing each other. We said, we 372 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:12,276 Speaker 1: want them to say at least once that they wanted 373 00:25:12,356 --> 00:25:16,076 Speaker 1: to be a part of this slough. Officially, Verna's ring 374 00:25:16,156 --> 00:25:18,756 Speaker 1: had each of the children's burstones embedded in the band. 375 00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 1: Fred's and the kid's rings were gold with a texture 376 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:26,516 Speaker 1: like a golden nugget. Minds the nuggets sort of shot 377 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:30,756 Speaker 1: nugget's been worn down and it's sort of smooth that 378 00:25:30,916 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: they serve an abstract design. If you look at it, 379 00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:39,676 Speaker 1: we all think we can see hearts in it, but 380 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:44,036 Speaker 1: you know that's the eye of the beholder. Do you 381 00:25:44,116 --> 00:25:49,276 Speaker 1: still wear that ring? Oh? Yes, yeah, was Verna? Would 382 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:52,516 Speaker 1: you say she was the love of your life? Yes? 383 00:25:55,956 --> 00:26:00,516 Speaker 1: Everything just really came together we were on the same 384 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:05,236 Speaker 1: wave length on you know just about everything that you 385 00:26:05,316 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 1: can imagine. Let's call and you our telephone number will 386 00:26:08,636 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 1: be not at and recorded. Later, when he was in 387 00:26:12,476 --> 00:26:15,836 Speaker 1: jail awaiting trial for Verna and Dougs murders, Fred wrote 388 00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 1: down some notes about this time, quote, we were living 389 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:22,156 Speaker 1: a dream that can never be duplicated, merging of two 390 00:26:22,276 --> 00:26:26,316 Speaker 1: families in all the best ways possible, and to many 391 00:26:26,356 --> 00:26:31,316 Speaker 1: people around them, they did seem blissfully happy. A family 392 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:35,636 Speaker 1: friend remembered Fred as quote sexy, wearing shoes with no socks, 393 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:38,636 Speaker 1: whipping up orange Dakeries to drink with Verna as the 394 00:26:38,676 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 1: sun went down. This is their neighbor, Dottie Menville, in 395 00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:46,036 Speaker 1: an archival interview, and just waiting up at each other 396 00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:51,396 Speaker 1: and touched each other and made efforts to be attractive 397 00:26:51,556 --> 00:27:01,196 Speaker 1: and make time together, and she was always I mean, 398 00:27:01,236 --> 00:27:04,356 Speaker 1: I got the impression that they may love even in 399 00:27:04,396 --> 00:27:06,916 Speaker 1: the daytime, and they felt like Anna. Those kids were 400 00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: all trained not to even knock if their doorish. This 401 00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:15,516 Speaker 1: is Fred's brother Ron. I think Vernon was the best 402 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 1: thing that ever happened to Fred. I saw him come 403 00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: out of this depression state that I saw him go into, 404 00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:26,756 Speaker 1: which I solely attributed to Vernon. I was somewhat skeptical 405 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:29,356 Speaker 1: at the beginning, and I thought it worked out just 406 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 1: extremely well. Fred started coaching the kids in sports, and 407 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 1: the neighbors often saw them running together on the beach. 408 00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 1: This is Marnie Strucker. She played soccer with Heidi. I 409 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:45,556 Speaker 1: want to call us the Sunshine team. We had yellow uniforms, 410 00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:48,956 Speaker 1: and you know, so we'd go to practices and he'd 411 00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: practice out in front on the sand, and you know, 412 00:27:52,836 --> 00:27:57,236 Speaker 1: it was just a typical, active, you know, sports sort 413 00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:01,636 Speaker 1: of oriented family and they just seemed really happy. She 414 00:28:01,796 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 1: and Heidi were and are extremely close. We spent a 415 00:28:06,676 --> 00:28:09,236 Speaker 1: lot of time at their home. They would come to 416 00:28:09,316 --> 00:28:12,516 Speaker 1: our house and you know, having lunches or spending the 417 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:16,556 Speaker 1: weekends together and you know, just playing, and you know, 418 00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:20,236 Speaker 1: that was that's my memory of them. Verna was just 419 00:28:20,676 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 1: a kind, incredible, you know, sweet woman. She took Kirsten 420 00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 1: and Heidi in as her very own, and I'd say 421 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:35,356 Speaker 1: the same for Fred, and they immediately recalling each other 422 00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:40,276 Speaker 1: sisters and brother and you know, it just it just 423 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:43,516 Speaker 1: seemed like the perfect Matt in my mind, and to 424 00:28:43,676 --> 00:28:46,636 Speaker 1: this day, you know, Heidi calls Verna her mom, and 425 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:49,876 Speaker 1: that's not something you see very often when you know 426 00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:52,996 Speaker 1: there's a combined family, you know, and she obviously lost 427 00:28:53,036 --> 00:28:56,196 Speaker 1: her mom, But Verna was a mom to them, you know, 428 00:28:56,276 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 1: and Fred was a father to them. Verna had ideas 429 00:28:59,716 --> 00:29:03,196 Speaker 1: about how to reinforce positive behavior, sharing with a sibling, 430 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 1: cooperating with a parent. Those behaviors would be rewarded with 431 00:29:07,116 --> 00:29:11,196 Speaker 1: a warm, fuzzy khaloo a cappuccino. This was something for 432 00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:15,996 Speaker 1: the kids. This is Heidi. So what my father did 433 00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:19,716 Speaker 1: is at his work he had made tokens with our 434 00:29:19,836 --> 00:29:22,196 Speaker 1: names on them, and I still have some of them. 435 00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:27,276 Speaker 1: And every night after dinner, we would sit down and 436 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 1: we would all take turns saying all the things we 437 00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:35,596 Speaker 1: did that were positive or helpful, warm fuzzy. So I 438 00:29:36,076 --> 00:29:38,436 Speaker 1: helped set the table and then we could get one 439 00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:40,316 Speaker 1: out of the jar and so we'd go through. But 440 00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 1: then they would come back and go but you didn't 441 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:44,996 Speaker 1: make your bed, so then it would go back in 442 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:49,516 Speaker 1: the jar. Him just raked in the tokens. She's just 443 00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:54,076 Speaker 1: listening all the things, and I'm thinking, oh, tomorrow I 444 00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:57,116 Speaker 1: am going to set the tables. So I get a 445 00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:00,516 Speaker 1: token and they know. The kids had known each other 446 00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:03,756 Speaker 1: their whole lives, from preschool and play dates at Verna's 447 00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:06,396 Speaker 1: house on broad Beach and swim lessons at the house 448 00:30:06,436 --> 00:30:11,716 Speaker 1: on Calpine. Amazingly they not become rivals. Now maybe it 449 00:30:11,836 --> 00:30:15,356 Speaker 1: helped that their ages were staggered. It went Verna's Kim, 450 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:20,036 Speaker 1: then Fred's Heidi, and Verna's Doug, then Fred's Kirsten. They 451 00:30:20,076 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 1: all just got along. Fred and Verna couldn't believe how 452 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 1: sweet life was, how lucky they were. Their first spouses 453 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:32,436 Speaker 1: had died. Was it wrong to be so happy in 454 00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:39,716 Speaker 1: the wake of tragedy. Fred's friend Mike Keilleen told investigators 455 00:30:39,756 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 1: that this became the subject of Fred and Verna's Pinch 456 00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:47,196 Speaker 1: Me Pillow talk. He said, Vernon and I got to 457 00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:49,316 Speaker 1: the point in our relationship were at night, when we 458 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:54,396 Speaker 1: lay in bed, we would ask them another question if 459 00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:57,076 Speaker 1: the other person would come back today. They both had 460 00:30:57,116 --> 00:31:02,716 Speaker 1: as somebody, who would you take, and we both agreed. 461 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 1: He said that we would take one another because that's 462 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:15,196 Speaker 1: how life was just better than it had been with 463 00:31:15,316 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 1: Bill and Jean. This caught the attention of the Santa 464 00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:28,436 Speaker 1: Barbara detectives too, especially when they began to focus on 465 00:31:28,516 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 1: the timeline of Fred's romance with Verna. Later, Fred would 466 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 1: be called upon to account for his whereabouts on December first, 467 00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:42,036 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, the day Bill Johnson plunged to his death. 468 00:31:43,716 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 1: Because the more the detectives learned about Fred Rayler, the 469 00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:50,236 Speaker 1: more they were starting to think he was not a 470 00:31:50,396 --> 00:32:02,676 Speaker 1: victim of these terrible circumstances, but the architect coming up 471 00:32:02,716 --> 00:32:06,196 Speaker 1: on the next episode of Lost Hills, its neighbor against 472 00:32:06,236 --> 00:32:10,156 Speaker 1: neighbor and who knows what to think? Since January this 473 00:32:10,276 --> 00:32:12,876 Speaker 1: is the top of the terror and immediately they were 474 00:32:12,956 --> 00:32:16,716 Speaker 1: there was the division or who couldn't have done that? Yeah? 475 00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:20,156 Speaker 1: And yes, probably do Yeah, he probably didn't know. I 476 00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:22,436 Speaker 1: mean I have those feelings some days I think you 477 00:32:22,476 --> 00:32:24,716 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have done this, This is just too harm. 478 00:32:24,836 --> 00:32:27,436 Speaker 1: Couldn't possibly In another days, I think, but what if 479 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 1: he did? That's next in episode six, Cold Prickles. Lost 480 00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:39,436 Speaker 1: Hills is written and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's 481 00:32:39,476 --> 00:32:43,036 Speaker 1: created by Me and Benader and produced by Western Sound 482 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:47,156 Speaker 1: and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can 483 00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 1: hear the whole season add free and get early access 484 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:52,996 Speaker 1: to the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the 485 00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:55,956 Speaker 1: Lost Hill Show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin 486 00:32:56,076 --> 00:32:56,796 Speaker 1: dot Fm.