Speaker 1: Hi. This is Milan Vervier and this is Kim Azarelli.
Speaker 1: We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Speaker 1: Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose. And you're listening to
Speaker 1: Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you
Speaker 1: by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: We are so excited to bring you this podcast because
Speaker 1: we know we are at a unique moment in history
Speaker 1: where women are critical to driving both economic and social progress. Now,
Speaker 1: let's get started with the conversation between Milan and Madeline Albright,
Speaker 1: the first woman to be the U S Secretary of State.
Speaker 1: We'll hear how Secretary Albright first got the job, what
Speaker 1: it's like to be the only woman in a room
Speaker 1: with male leaders, and how tech is changing women's lives,
Speaker 1: plus her advice for any woman who wants to make
Speaker 1: her voice heard, and stick around after the conversation for
Speaker 1: our top takeaways. We'll be back after this break. Yeah
Speaker 1: mm hmmm. Secretary, all right, we are absolutely thrilled to
Speaker 1: have you with us today. We all know that you're
Speaker 1: an extraordinary leader in the area of global affairs and
Speaker 1: foreign policy, but I know personally you're an extraordinary advocate
Speaker 1: for women's leadership, women's political participation. You chair the National
Speaker 1: Endowment for Democracy. You really put your own power and
Speaker 1: your own experience to promote women's leadership. Maybe you could
Speaker 1: tell us how you do that and why you do that, well,
Speaker 1: ambassador or uh, we do do that to each other. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm delighted to be here and to have the opportunity
Speaker 1: to talk about all this. And I have to say
Speaker 1: that it is clear to me that when women are
Speaker 1: out there and we're all working hard, we do it together,
Speaker 1: not against each other. And I think that is a
Speaker 1: very important part. I am so grateful for all the
Speaker 1: things that happened. And I know I'm not supposed to
Speaker 1: say I was lucky, but basically I did manage to
Speaker 1: have my credentials together at a time that people were
Speaker 1: looking for the one woman. Uh, and so I was
Speaker 1: able to kind of parlay one thing to another. But
Speaker 1: I have to say that one of the best things,
Speaker 1: and you and I will agree on this, is that
Speaker 1: we had an opportunity to work for and with the Clintons,
Speaker 1: who believed in the fact that women should be able
Speaker 1: to pursue careers and have a chance to show what
Speaker 1: we can do together. So I'm very grateful to them.
Speaker 1: And what what is it that you do at n
Speaker 1: d I to promote women's political participation. Well, let me
Speaker 1: explain a little bit, UM. Actually, what is interesting. We're
Speaker 1: about to celebrate our thirty fifth anniversary the nationally. What
Speaker 1: happened was President Reagan was in London speaking at Parliament
Speaker 1: and he was saying that democracies were not real good
Speaker 1: about explaining themselves visa e. Communism. So he came back
Speaker 1: to the United States and he started the Endowment for Democracy,
Speaker 1: which has four institutes, Democrats and Republicans, Business and Labor. UH.
Speaker 1: And I was the original vice chair, democratically put into
Speaker 1: place by Fiat. UH. But what happened is we were
Speaker 1: trying to really figure out what we needed to do.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we have concentrated on
Speaker 1: more than anything else is how to support women women
Speaker 1: candidates UM in all over the world UH and UM.
Speaker 1: And we are working on that now in a number
Speaker 1: of countries, explaining how the nuts and bolts of democracy
Speaker 1: work and how societies are better off when women are
Speaker 1: politically empowered. I have to say that, UM. When I
Speaker 1: became secretary, I was the first one to put women's
Speaker 1: issues central to American foreign policy, and not just because
Speaker 1: I'm a feminist, but I will do believe that women
Speaker 1: that societies are better off when women are economically and
Speaker 1: politically empowered. And then Secretary Clinton took it to a
Speaker 1: whole with you, a whole other level, but that was
Speaker 1: the part of it. Something that we're doing now with
Speaker 1: the United Nations UM is to explain that even when
Speaker 1: we were able to support women, there still is a
Speaker 1: lot of harassment and very dangerous and so with the
Speaker 1: U n UM we have started something called not the
Speaker 1: Cost is to really show that we need to support
Speaker 1: women as they are being harassed for running for office.
Speaker 1: And so it's not just a matter of getting people
Speaker 1: to run, but to be supportive. And it does make
Speaker 1: a huge difference. In n D I is very much
Speaker 1: the center of that, you know it. It really is
Speaker 1: difficult for women in politics. And I remember a woman
Speaker 1: UH in Africa saying to me, you know, she she
Speaker 1: wanted to run for the parliament. She said, they say
Speaker 1: to you, well, if you have a family, why aren't
Speaker 1: you with the family. And if you don't have a family,
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you. So she said, either way
Speaker 1: you can't win. Uh. But when you were Ambassador to
Speaker 1: the United Nations for the United States, and I know
Speaker 1: that when you arrived at the u N there weren't
Speaker 1: too many female ambassadors, but being that you were representing
Speaker 1: the United States, you were in a very strong position
Speaker 1: of leadership. How did you support the few other UH
Speaker 1: women ambassadors? Let me just say it was one of them.
Speaker 1: There were a hundred and eighties three countries with the
Speaker 1: u N when I was there, UM, and it was
Speaker 1: one of the first times I didn't have to cook
Speaker 1: lunch myself. So I asked my assistant to invite the
Speaker 1: other women to the residents so that we could I
Speaker 1: could meet them and I out there and there are
Speaker 1: six other women out of a hundred and three There
Speaker 1: was Canada, Philippines, Kazakhstan, Trinidad, Tobago, Jamaica, Liechtenstein and me.
Speaker 1: So what happened was, being the American I created a
Speaker 1: caucus and we called ourselves the G seven UH and UM.
Speaker 1: We agreed that we would always stay in touch and
Speaker 1: take take each other's telephone calls. So what happened all
Speaker 1: of a sudden one of the male ambassadors at the
Speaker 1: u N said, why would you be talking to Liechtenstein
Speaker 1: and I said, well, have yourself replaced by a woman,
Speaker 1: and I'll be very happy to take your call whenever
Speaker 1: you want. But the thing that we did do we
Speaker 1: did become very good friends and supported each other in
Speaker 1: so many ways. But the interesting part is what we
Speaker 1: were able to do because at that stage we were
Speaker 1: dealing with the issues in Bosnia where women were being
Speaker 1: terrorized and raped and made into refugees, and so we
Speaker 1: lobbied to get women judges on the War Crimes Tribunal
Speaker 1: and we did manage to get two women judges. Later,
Speaker 1: we did a lot of things to do with HIV
Speaker 1: and AIDS and really did try to use our power
Speaker 1: as the G seven. UM. Now there are many more
Speaker 1: women UH and UM. Also women ambassadors in Washington, but
Speaker 1: never enough, and women foreign ministers UM. But I think
Speaker 1: that we really need to keep pursuing that. By the way,
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell one other story about the u N.
Speaker 1: I think many people have heard me on this subject,
Speaker 1: and I think we've all had this experience. You're in
Speaker 1: a meeting, you're the only woman in the room, and
Speaker 1: you decide that you're going to say something, and then
Speaker 1: you think, well, everybody will think it's stupid, so I
Speaker 1: won't say it, and then some man says it and
Speaker 1: everybody thinks it's brilliant, and you're really mad at yourself.
Speaker 1: And so that happened to me earlier my government career,
Speaker 1: before the Clinton administration. UM. And then I taught at Georgetown,
Speaker 1: and I try to explain to my students, UM that
Speaker 1: they everybody had to learn to interrupt. Nobody was going
Speaker 1: to raise their hands in class. My classes are a
Speaker 1: bit of a zoo, but I really have said they
Speaker 1: have to do that. But the story is the following.
Speaker 1: I get to the United Nations. I am the only
Speaker 1: woman on the Security Council, and most of the meetings
Speaker 1: don't take place in that fancy room, but in a
Speaker 1: in a room in the back, and I sit down
Speaker 1: and people start talking about a subject and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I won't talk today until I figure
Speaker 1: out if they like me or not. And then I
Speaker 1: saw the sign in front of me and said United States.
Speaker 1: And I thought, if I don't speak today, the voice
Speaker 1: of the United States will not be heard, and you've
Speaker 1: got to speak. I don't know, So speaking of that, UM,
Speaker 1: I wonder when you assumed the position as the first
Speaker 1: female head of the eighth Department are foreign minister around
Speaker 1: the world, whether you felt it was any kind of
Speaker 1: super responsibility in a way beyond the responsibility of any
Speaker 1: Secretary of State, but being the first woman was that
Speaker 1: extra pressure? Was it? Well? First of all, I didn't
Speaker 1: believe I'd ever be Secretary of State. What happened was
Speaker 1: Warren Christopher, who had been Secretary of State, made clear
Speaker 1: he was going to not be there for a second term.
Speaker 1: And so the period of the great mentioning started happening. Um,
Speaker 1: and my name was out there, and somebody said, well,
Speaker 1: a woman couldn't be Secretary of State because Arab countries
Speaker 1: would not deal with it with an American woman. And
Speaker 1: so what happened was the Arab ambassadors at the u
Speaker 1: N got together and they put out a statement saying,
Speaker 1: we've had no problems dealing with Ambassador Albright. We wouldn't
Speaker 1: have any problems with Secretary Albright. Then what happened, Um,
Speaker 1: somebody at the White House, and I never I never
Speaker 1: want to know who said, yeah, mad Lane's on the list,
Speaker 1: but she's said can tear um. And so it was
Speaker 1: the quote that it was the quote in the post.
Speaker 1: So I never thought I'd get to be Secretary of State,
Speaker 1: and I was thrilled to be. And I know as
Speaker 1: a fact that the only reason I was was because
Speaker 1: of Hillary. And the reason I know that is because
Speaker 1: President Clinton said so publicly when we were abroad one
Speaker 1: time we had this stick. We've often traveled together and
Speaker 1: I would introduce her and she would introduce him, and
Speaker 1: he actually said that during this period of the great mentioning,
Speaker 1: Hillary would come to him and say, why wouldn't you
Speaker 1: name Madeline. She's closest to your views and expresses them
Speaker 1: better than anybody else. So and besides, it would make
Speaker 1: your mother happy. So that is how it happened. But partially,
Speaker 1: and I'm not just saying this because I'm sitting with
Speaker 1: you and Hillary is coming on, is that the partnership
Speaker 1: that we all had and the support that we have
Speaker 1: for each other, I think made a very, very big difference.
Speaker 1: The thing that happened one of my first trips AFTERTUALLY
Speaker 1: was to the Gulf Cooperation from Council meeting. It was
Speaker 1: in Kuwait, and I'm sitting there with the other foreign
Speaker 1: ministers and they end up by saying, um, you know
Speaker 1: this was a great meeting. I said, well, perhaps you've
Speaker 1: noticed I'm not dressed exactly as my predecessors have been.
Speaker 1: And thank you very much. You've been very kind to me.
Speaker 1: And next time we'll talk about women's rights. And we did.
Speaker 1: And I did feel that I was representing a great
Speaker 1: country and that I had a huge opportunity to show
Speaker 1: that we were able to do what we had to do.
Speaker 1: I did work hard, and I did believe that I
Speaker 1: had to deliver UH. And I think there were ad
Speaker 1: manages to it, but there was always the issue of
Speaker 1: how you go to a country and start a conversation
Speaker 1: and say what you have to, which mostly that what
Speaker 1: you have to has to do with human rights and
Speaker 1: women's rights. So I'd be somewhere and I'd be nice
Speaker 1: and charming as best I could, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I'd say, I've come a long way, so I must
Speaker 1: be frank. And so I really told it like it is.
Speaker 1: But there was a responsibility about being the first woman,
Speaker 1: There's no question. So you then succeeded UH to lead
Speaker 1: the way for two other women to be named Secretary
Speaker 1: of State in fairly short order, given a twenty years span.
Speaker 1: UM and it was certainly a trailblazing, UM recognition that
Speaker 1: of the role that you started, and then others followed.
Speaker 1: And I understand, and maybe you could tell us if
Speaker 1: this is true, that your granddaughter was hearing you one night,
Speaker 1: Opine about this great role that you had played. So
Speaker 1: was she impressed? Um? What happened was my granddaughter, about
Speaker 1: eight years ago, when she was seven, said to her mother, so,
Speaker 1: what's the big deal about Grandma Mattie being Secretary State?
Speaker 1: Only girls are secretary state, and so in her lifetime
Speaker 1: there had been cond and Hillary. Yeah, And since then,
Speaker 1: actually I have said, there are some little boys out
Speaker 1: there who have been impressed by the fact that a
Speaker 1: man can be secretary of state. Sort to we would
Speaker 1: really achieved something when we don't have to comment on
Speaker 1: the first anymore, when it can become normal. We're talking
Speaker 1: here a lot today about technology and innovation. UM. Have
Speaker 1: you experienced, UM, the importance of technology in terms of
Speaker 1: advancing the kinds of things that you've been working on,
Speaker 1: particularly for women, No question, has made a huge difference.
Speaker 1: And I have been very interested in my role first
Speaker 1: with the National Democratic Institute about how democratizing technology really
Speaker 1: can be or should be UM in terms of allowing
Speaker 1: information to people and really connecting people in many ways.
Speaker 1: I do think, and I talk about this all the time,
Speaker 1: is UH that technology has made it possible. I sometimes
Speaker 1: talk about the woman Kenyon Farmer who no longer has
Speaker 1: to walk miles to pay her bills. She can do
Speaker 1: it with her phone, which has changed the possibilities of
Speaker 1: her life, not only with her family, but the possibilities
Speaker 1: of having UH employment of a variety of different kinds.
Speaker 1: And I think it really has made a difference UM
Speaker 1: and also UM in terms of women being able to
Speaker 1: create businesses UM, whether it's in India or the Middle East.
Speaker 1: And a lot of that does have to do with technology.
Speaker 1: There are upsides and downsides to technology. And one of
Speaker 1: the things I've talked about is and and this speaks
Speaker 1: to the larger things that are going on in the world.
Speaker 1: There are two mega trends out there. One is globalization
Speaker 1: UH and the other is technology. They both have positive
Speaker 1: and downsides to them. So on globalization, I think most
Speaker 1: of us are a beneficiary areas of it, but it's faceless,
Speaker 1: and so people do want to know what their identities are.
Speaker 1: We all want to know ethnic, religious, linguistic and that's patriotic.
Speaker 1: But if my identity hates your identity, it's very dangerous.
Speaker 1: And nationalism and hypernationalism is very, very dangerous. The other
Speaker 1: is technology, which is positive for all the reasons that
Speaker 1: we've already spoken about, but it also has a downside.
Speaker 1: It has disaggregated voices. Um, and I sometimes talk about
Speaker 1: Egypt on this is that people were summoned to Teri
Speaker 1: or square by social media. The issue is that they
Speaker 1: were all in their kind of echo chambers and only
Speaker 1: listened to what they already knew. And God forbid I
Speaker 1: should say this, but I think the elections in Egypt
Speaker 1: were held too soon, um and so um, the Muslim
Speaker 1: Brotherhood was organized, the people in Chario Square were not,
Speaker 1: and the Muslim Brotherhood wins, and there were results from that,
Speaker 1: and so I think we need to understand the positives
Speaker 1: and negatives of technology. And um. By the way, I
Speaker 1: use this line fairly frequently, and I always say it's
Speaker 1: completely plagiarized from Silicon Valley, but it explains so well
Speaker 1: what is going on. People are talking to their governments
Speaker 1: on twenty first century technology. The government's listened to them
Speaker 1: on twentieth century technology and provide nineteenth century responses. So
Speaker 1: there's no faith in institutions. UM, so where there's a
Speaker 1: lot And then I've just been at some seminars on
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. I do think that we have not fully
Speaker 1: understood the impact of technology on all our economies, and
Speaker 1: we need to grasp what artificial intelligence is going to do,
Speaker 1: um even more, and how we deal with that of
Speaker 1: society's well. And I know one of the things troubling
Speaker 1: about AI is who's doing the inputting and where is
Speaker 1: the presence of women in this in this field, because
Speaker 1: what's going to come out is going to be essentially
Speaker 1: what was put in uh, and you won't have the
Speaker 1: kind of predominant or even fair representation like is in
Speaker 1: this room. I do think that some of us are
Speaker 1: not by the way, my classmates are here, and I
Speaker 1: went to Wellesley at some time between the invention of
Speaker 1: the iPad and the discovery of fire, and uh, it
Speaker 1: should be true of you guys to um. But I
Speaker 1: do think that those of us and by the way, um,
Speaker 1: you know, so we know we talked talking awful lot
Speaker 1: about millennials. I'm a perennial, and so what we have
Speaker 1: to do is figure out how to use the technology
Speaker 1: for the improvement of all of us. But it truly
Speaker 1: has become even a big foreign policy issue in terms
Speaker 1: of it being used for radicalization by violent extremists. Uh,
Speaker 1: what's happened in terms not just in the United States
Speaker 1: but around Europe and in terms of trying to change elections,
Speaker 1: um in a way that is truly interfering. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot that was not on the foreign policy issue
Speaker 1: that is now very much so. And I think people
Speaker 1: need to understand very well. You and I are both
Speaker 1: at Georgetown, and I think we have talked about what
Speaker 1: the curriculum for people that are in the larger field
Speaker 1: of international affairs has to be. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it isn't just taking political science and history. What we
Speaker 1: have to do is understand health issues, UM issues to
Speaker 1: do with any kind of scientific thing. The world is
Speaker 1: not flat, um. And I think there are any aspects
Speaker 1: of that curriculum that we have to work on so
Speaker 1: that people really are prepared to have the discussions about
Speaker 1: AI and global warming and all the various aspects that
Speaker 1: are going on and the health issues. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a growth industry and a field and it needs women.
Speaker 1: I really believe that in terms of moving forward to
Speaker 1: get something that we want in the twenty first century
Speaker 1: instead of the mess that's going on now. That, by
Speaker 1: the way, is a diplomatic term of art. Un you know, um,
Speaker 1: you never stop. You're a force of nature and uh,
Speaker 1: it's hard to keep track of you, of any at
Speaker 1: any given time. Uh. And we also knew you're an author.
Speaker 1: And everybody has gotten your book today called fashion okay,
Speaker 1: a fascism of warning. And I wonder if you could
Speaker 1: tell us why you wrote it, and maybe people will
Speaker 1: get into the book that much faster when they live here. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, it has a very bland title. Um.
Speaker 1: But and some people think it's alarmist, and it's supposed
Speaker 1: to be. Uh. And the reason I wrote it, I
Speaker 1: actually was going to write it no matter who had
Speaker 1: gotten elected, because I felt very much that there were
Speaker 1: divisions in our society created some by technology and not
Speaker 1: a full understand ending of it. And I really speeded
Speaker 1: up the writing of it, um more after the election.
Speaker 1: And it is supposed to be I decided it had
Speaker 1: to be historical. A lot of it is personal to me.
Speaker 1: I was born in Czechoslovakia in ninety seven, and the
Speaker 1: Nazis came in in nineteen thirty nine. Um, and a
Speaker 1: lot of people UH died as a result of fascism. Um.
Speaker 1: As it turns out, I learned thirty eight members of
Speaker 1: my family did, and so I think that so it
Speaker 1: was very personal, but also I thought it needed to
Speaker 1: be put into historic context. So I begin with Mussolini,
Speaker 1: and then Hitler, and then I Franco, and then I
Speaker 1: talked about various places now in the world where I'm
Speaker 1: very worried by the dictatorial authoritarian leaders. Um and Um.
Speaker 1: The best quote in the book actually comes from Mussolini,
Speaker 1: and he said, if you pluck a chicken, one feather
Speaker 1: at a time, nobody notices. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: feather plucking going on now. And you can't say those
Speaker 1: words too quickly together. UM. You know. But I do
Speaker 1: think there is a warning about the kinds of things
Speaker 1: that are going on. And I have the part that
Speaker 1: I learned in writing the book is Mussolini, Hitler, and
Speaker 1: Franco came to power constitutionally. Mussolini there were complications with
Speaker 1: party politics in the end of World War One, and
Speaker 1: King Emmanuel turned power over to him. Hitler there were
Speaker 1: various issues going on in Germany. UM, there's some as
Speaker 1: the result of the Versailles Treaty, some of um financial
Speaker 1: and the Weimar Republic wasn't strong, so von Hindenburg turned
Speaker 1: power over to Hitler. Then also in Spain there was
Speaker 1: a weak government that folded and the king there turned
Speaker 1: it over to Franco. The countries that I write about now,
Speaker 1: starting with Orbon and Hungary and what's going on in Poland,
Speaker 1: and in the Philippines with Duterte, and Turkey with Air
Speaker 1: Douan and Chabeza Maduro in Venezuela, they were all elected
Speaker 1: and I think it's only and I do say the
Speaker 1: communism is also fascism. There they had revolutions, but all
Speaker 1: the other ones were people that were elected. And I
Speaker 1: think we need to understand what the conditions are that
Speaker 1: create this. You know, we're all familiar with that of
Speaker 1: saying see something, say something. I have added something to that,
Speaker 1: which is do something. We cannot normalize what is going
Speaker 1: on UM. And my to do list really does include
Speaker 1: saying we it is very important for there to be
Speaker 1: freedom of the press. The press is not the enemy
Speaker 1: of the people. To have a judicial branch that is judicious. Uh.
Speaker 1: And UM to not think that leaders can be above
Speaker 1: the law. UH. And then UM, I do think people
Speaker 1: need to run for office or support those that do.
Speaker 1: And then something that I think is actually hard to do,
Speaker 1: which is to talk with the people that we disagree with. UM.
Speaker 1: I don't like the word tolerance because it's tolerant put
Speaker 1: up with. I think we need to respect those views. UM.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be in an echo chamber. I
Speaker 1: want to learn a lot. By the way, you should
Speaker 1: all be glad that you live here and not in Washington,
Speaker 1: because in Washington I listened to right wing radio as
Speaker 1: I drive, UM, and do a little yelling and a
Speaker 1: few hand gestures, and so it's possible that I'm dangerous.
Speaker 1: It may be the secret of lawn, you know. But
Speaker 1: then I don't think there's ever been a book or
Speaker 1: a speech that doesn't quote Robert Frost. So my quote is, Uh,
Speaker 1: the older I get, the younger are my teachers. And
Speaker 1: I think we need to support those young people that
Speaker 1: marched because of part Green and all that. UM. That's it.
Speaker 1: Elacaly Well, Madams Secretary, We're glad you're a perennial and
Speaker 1: may you continue to lead and thank thank you. That's it, Elacaly.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for our takeaways after this break. That was
Speaker 1: an incredible conversation with Madeline Albright. It's really worth checking
Speaker 1: out our book Fascism A Warning. A couple of important takeaways. First,
Speaker 1: sometimes to make your voice heard, you have to learn
Speaker 1: to interrupt. Secretary Albright teaches at Georgetown and she insists
Speaker 1: that our students interrupt in class. Second, it's not just
Speaker 1: enough to speak up. Everyone knows the saying see something,
Speaker 1: say something, Secretary Albright ads, do something. Finally, we have
Speaker 1: to talk with the people we disagree with. As Secretary
Speaker 1: Albright suggests, it's important that we try to respect other
Speaker 1: people's views. You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power
Speaker 1: and Purpose, brought to you by the Seneca Women podcast
Speaker 1: Network and i Heart Radio with support from founding partner
Speaker 1: P and G. Listen to Seneca Women Conversations on Power
Speaker 1: and Purpose on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and please support this
Speaker 1: podcast by telling your friends, subscribing, and rating us. For
Speaker 1: more information on Seneca Women, follow us on social media,
Speaker 1: Visit our website Seneca Women dot com. And check out
Speaker 1: the Seneca Women app free in the app Store. Have
Speaker 1: a great day wh