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Speaker 1: The reason I'm doing this because when the righteous man

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Speaker 1: doesn't stand up, evil will try up. We need to

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Speaker 1: stand up. This is wrong, this is evil.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 2: Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for

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Speaker 2: the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series

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Speaker 2: explored the story of Robert Shin, the La bas Chkaina

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Speaker 2: Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over

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Speaker 2: two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is

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Speaker 2: named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Culiah Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and

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Speaker 3: Seven M Films. In this episode, we're joined by Andrew.

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Speaker 3: He's a former member of Chicina for over six years. Today,

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Speaker 3: he's going to share his story into the world of Chicina,

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Speaker 3: how his labor was exploited, and how much of his

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Speaker 3: experience was shaped by the various roles within the church.

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Speaker 2: He also discusses the disturb accusations against the La based

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Speaker 2: Chakina Church's pastor, Robert Shin, that ultimately led him to leave. Finally,

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Speaker 2: Andrew explains his decision to come forward, and his journey

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Speaker 2: of spiritual deprogramming.

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Speaker 4: Now our conversation with Andrew.

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Speaker 3: Quick disclaimer, this episode discusses allegations of sexual assault.

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Speaker 4: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: All right, goodness, all right.

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Speaker 3: Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm

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Speaker 3: really excited to have you on. There's just so much

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Speaker 3: that had happened before I had joined Chikina that I

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Speaker 3: was just so unaware of, and so it's really helped

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Speaker 3: me kind of navigate the process of like healing from

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Speaker 3: just the experience of being around Chikina in seven M.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being here. I see you're at work

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Speaker 3: right now. So what do you What do you do

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Speaker 3: for work?

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Speaker 1: I work for Sacramento Municipal Utility District.

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Speaker 4: I'm in Sacramento. You are, I'm in your smud.

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Speaker 3: So what kind of led you to come and share

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Speaker 3: your story today?

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Speaker 1: For me, have no monetary gain. My purpose is just

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Speaker 1: to help others and hopefully prevent future victims. Right.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation Andrew.

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Speaker 2: So much of this organically developed through social media, and

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Speaker 2: I actually initially had seen you commenting after the documentary

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Speaker 2: came out and seeing more and more comments in you

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Speaker 2: speaking up and being able to reach out is exactly

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Speaker 2: how this whole thing came about. And it was not

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Speaker 2: an easy decision for a lot of people. And so

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Speaker 2: I echo what Kalia said and thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for coming forward. There's so many questions that we have

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Speaker 2: of what drove you to leave. But before we get there,

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Speaker 2: how did you get introduced to Chicaga.

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Speaker 1: So? I was an immigrant from Indonesia back in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one. May rest off the boat. My only

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Speaker 1: friend is my cousin. My cousin, he's friend with Matthew

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Speaker 1: quick refresher.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Shin is a realtor that has worked closely with

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Speaker 2: Robert for many many years and is believed to still

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Speaker 2: be a part of the church today.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and one day Matthew invited my cousin and I

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Speaker 1: to his house for game night. Nothing harmless about it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, and pizza will be served, video

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Speaker 1: game pizza pizza. Come on right, you're seventeen sixteen, you

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Speaker 1: know we like video games and food. But the week

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Speaker 1: after Matthew invited us again, I was like, oh, because

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Speaker 1: it was so much fun last week, But this time

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Speaker 1: I remember one person for sure is Ryan Shan, Robert Shan, nephew,

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Speaker 1: you know, and for some reason, you know, there's no game.

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Speaker 1: San Luis sit in a circle and talk about what

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Speaker 1: do you know about your salvation? How do you know

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent suregar to heaven kind of talk. We say, yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, we believe in God, blah blah blah. That shebang,

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Speaker 1: and it's that demands like, oh, come to Sunday service.

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Speaker 1: We go to Sunday service. And then suddenly we got

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Speaker 1: to know Catherine, you know, she talks to Ryan. I

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Speaker 1: was like, what about this indo boys? We called Indo

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Speaker 1: boys that Matthew, me, my cousin, and one more kid,

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Speaker 1: so we are the Indo boys. I was like, have

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Speaker 1: these into boys go to witnessing program on Saturday? Started

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Speaker 1: Witnessing evolved into Wednesday night service and it doesn't Tree.

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Speaker 1: I graduated. Because of my illegal status at the time,

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Speaker 1: they decided to bring me in into one of their

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Speaker 1: housing in Artisia.

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Speaker 2: Was that common for immigrants to join the church and

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Speaker 2: then for them to have them move into housing to

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Speaker 2: help kind of get situated.

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Speaker 1: I'm very vulnerable at the time because I have nowhere

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Speaker 1: to go I direction. Nobody is helping me out, and

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Speaker 1: then I don't like the direction my uncle and aunt

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Speaker 1: gave me. She kind of troop in and then put

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Speaker 1: me in this bubble where like you'll be protected with us,

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Speaker 1: just serve God and things will work out. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So once you got involved with Chicana, so now you're there,

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Speaker 3: you're living with them.

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Speaker 4: What was the daily life like?

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Speaker 1: Monday to Friday? This is our schedule. Five o'clock when

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Speaker 1: we wake up. We drove from our housing, go to

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Speaker 1: the church to get there. Six or something like that.

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Speaker 1: We start doing confessions ten to fifteen minutes and we

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Speaker 1: start running in place. It's ridiculous, right yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: spaking talent and praying, and then there's a podium where

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Speaker 1: they put a speaker in a microphone. You're supposed to

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Speaker 1: go out there and start praying tongue and ron of everybody.

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Speaker 1: It took me a while to get used to it

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Speaker 1: until like one day, like Catherine come from behind that

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Speaker 1: ky you go next. I was like, what the heck?

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Speaker 1: I get used to it. I can to it. So

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Speaker 1: that is five to seven o'clock and then after seven

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Speaker 1: o'clock we clean up, people go to work. I work

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Speaker 1: for the flower shop with Hannah Lee and Melanie too

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Speaker 1: and Ryan broken flower shop. Fiki's Flowers opened a close

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Speaker 1: at five or six. I forgot slate. That's my day

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Speaker 1: to day, Monday to Friday.

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Speaker 4: Were you paid for your time at the flower shop?

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Speaker 1: How much I get paid for a month? How much

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Speaker 1: one dollars? Their defense is like, oh, you don't pay rent,

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Speaker 1: you got food, you got somewhat close. I got one

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars a month with the tax ten percent. Men

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Speaker 1: of God tied offering.

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Speaker 3: You still had to give offering tithe and man of

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Speaker 3: God from the one hundred.

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Speaker 1: Yep, so I got seventy bucks.

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Speaker 4: Wow, Andrew.

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Speaker 1: And then one time Katherine you yell at me like

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Speaker 1: you need to get more because she checked our books.

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Speaker 1: We have the ledger right or you not giving I

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Speaker 1: was like I home to one hundred dollars on my knee.

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Speaker 2: You know, like, my goodness, are you working on a

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Speaker 2: green card because you said that you came in as

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Speaker 2: an immigrant or at this time was it kind of

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Speaker 2: under the table, under the table, okay, So do you

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Speaker 2: feel that maybe that was part of how they were

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Speaker 2: taking advantage of you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because they angled the green card as a carrot

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Speaker 1: in front, like, hey, you this forgot God. Because of

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Speaker 1: your faith, you will get your green car, all right.

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Speaker 1: And then on two thousand and five to six, is

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Speaker 1: I forgot Joe Montgomery Pieces sister sent a letter to

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Speaker 1: the government like, hey, you know Andrew's case, can you

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Speaker 1: clear it up? Blah blah blah. That messed my case

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Speaker 1: because after I got up, I got a lawyer, and

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Speaker 1: then he cleaned that up. That's why for the state.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, being an immigrant, I had an immigrant stepfather,

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Speaker 2: and I know what that does, and I know the

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Speaker 2: toll that it takes and the uncertainty around life. And

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Speaker 2: so if someone's dangling a carrot and someone's seemingly actively

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Speaker 2: sabotaging that process, which is very, very difficult and time consuming,

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Speaker 2: can you walk us through a little bit about what

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Speaker 2: that was like for you.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, okay, you know, if I pray hard enough,

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Speaker 1: if I work hard enough, because when I was like

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Speaker 1: a flower shop, it's frowned upon to take a break,

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Speaker 1: you know, they said, like you got to work, you're

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Speaker 1: bought off, and pray so God will open doors. Like okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll do it. And then I'm just so dumb and

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Speaker 1: nowive believing it, like, Okay, if I do this, my

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Speaker 1: green card will come out next year. You know, some

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Speaker 1: way will open up as why it is just exhausting,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know what to do. You know. Towards

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Speaker 1: the end of my tendorship, they're like, oh, we're working

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Speaker 1: on it for you. You're still waiting for it. And

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Speaker 1: these guys has no legal expertise, so they messed up

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Speaker 1: my case. I was like, they don't know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: They're just working by fate.

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Speaker 3: After the break, we continue our conversation with Andrew.

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Speaker 4: This is forgive me for I have fallen. We'll be

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Speaker 4: right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 2: back to our conversation with Andrew.

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Speaker 4: So while you were in Chakina, about how long were

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Speaker 4: you in you said you hadn't moved in around two

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Speaker 4: thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so two thousand and eight, that's when things broke

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Speaker 1: loose where I come to church for a rehearsal. Oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I do play bass guitar for the church.

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Speaker 1: And as I was rehearsing, like where's peace, where's the

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Speaker 1: rest of the band member, they're not there. My bass

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Speaker 1: teacher he played the keyboard, so it's like, just just

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Speaker 1: practice by ourselves, we'd be fine. And then service started.

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Speaker 1: I'm believed nine, like, where's everybody? Nobody showing up? Robert

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to call him pastor because he's not

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Speaker 1: a pastor. He walked like start talking like I was like,

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Speaker 1: what is going on? Something is awkward, you know. I

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Speaker 1: suddenly Catherine storming and start yelling going on, I'm shocked, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's yelling at him, and suddenly the conversation talked about

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Speaker 1: like he playing with the girls. I'm shocked. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what the heck? That's just wrong. Yeah, so I walk out.

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Speaker 1: I'm like asking God, I was like, am I in

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Speaker 1: a show or something?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: Right? You just took advantage for him for five years?

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So the service ended, everybody split, and then Monday comes

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Speaker 1: and everything just kind of back to normal. But you

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Speaker 1: can feel the tension mm hmm. You know, well, Hannah

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Speaker 1: and Melanie is in same group with Robert, and then

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Speaker 1: we have joy with Catherine and they like monitoring each

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Speaker 1: other in the shop. It feels like whole war and

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Speaker 1: you don't know where to pick. You don't know which

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Speaker 1: side is the right side.

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Speaker 2: Oh, because the next day, everyone's still working at the

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Speaker 2: flower shop. So even though that happened at the church,

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Speaker 2: everyone is still in the same space.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So again, every Monday night we have to submit report.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've done that. We catalog what

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Speaker 1: you read day to day and tell us your stories

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Speaker 1: of the week. That is kind of like the way

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Speaker 1: Robert monitored us at home. We don't feel like ourselves

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Speaker 1: because we're hiring each other. I think with the guy's

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Speaker 1: a little bit lax because like we do dumb things together.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, the same feeling. But times ten at

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Speaker 1: work on Monday, we're honoring each other out until my

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Speaker 1: base teacher, the minister under Robert at the time he

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Speaker 1: delivered flower for us. That's how much Robert put him

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Speaker 1: so low from minister to delivery man. I'm sweeping, I'm

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Speaker 1: mopping and everything right at the shops and he just

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Speaker 1: like pulled me to the side behind the cooler and

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Speaker 1: he's like, hey, this is not the same Robert that

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Speaker 1: I know before. You know, he put my shirt and

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Speaker 1: he's doing this to the girls, and I want to

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Speaker 1: save you. Do you have place to go? It's like probably,

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Speaker 1: And then he asks me if my cousin is really

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Speaker 1: opened his door to move in again, the same cousin

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Speaker 1: I have, so right away I called my cousin flutly

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Speaker 1: at the time when I say, hey, something is wrong.

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Speaker 1: We need to get out. And my cousin can tell

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Speaker 1: by my tone because we've been very close friends since

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Speaker 1: we were little. He can tell like I am serious.

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Speaker 1: So okay, what they do? I cannot move in And

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Speaker 1: then he led me to move back in. And that's

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Speaker 1: one guy. His name is Raphael. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: he's here yet. Yeah, okay. I asked my cousin, can

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Speaker 1: you call Rafiele for me? We need to get him

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Speaker 1: out too, And I found out later Matthew was with

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Speaker 1: him all day, monitoring every move he made. He can

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Speaker 1: answer the phone, he can text back.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I think Raphel can clear follow this. Either Matthew holds

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Speaker 1: his phone or something.

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Speaker 2: Which parallels a little bit of what we saw in

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Speaker 2: the documentary. You know, there's just always that question on

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Speaker 2: whether or not they have access to their phone or

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Speaker 2: if they're being monitored by other people. Obviously we can't

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Speaker 2: guarantee that, but we can speculate, and I think if

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Speaker 2: people had that experience it's where the speculation comes from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe they have access but monitored at the

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Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, and then they got told what they

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Speaker 1: can post or not post.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I can speak to is when we

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Speaker 3: were there, it wasn't like phones would be confiscated. It's

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Speaker 3: more conversational where it's like, oh, this person texted me,

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Speaker 3: that person texted me, And that type of monitoring would

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Speaker 3: happen from like a mentorship standpoint of like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, these people aren't dedicated to God, so I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you'd really want to talk to them

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Speaker 3: like that was you know, how it would kind of work.

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Speaker 3: But absolutely, like what to post and what not to

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Speaker 3: post was largely controlled by and management.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I'm so glad that you had your cousin and

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Speaker 3: it just it really reminds me. I had that same

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Speaker 3: moment with my husband because when we had noticed that

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Speaker 3: something was wrong, and the boys also had gotten together

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Speaker 3: and talked, and he came home and had said, just

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Speaker 3: like it was the same. I could tell by his

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Speaker 3: tone that it was serious, and I said okay, and

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Speaker 3: he said, we need to get out of here, and

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Speaker 3: so I started looking for apartments that same day.

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Speaker 4: So it's really helpful having i.

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Speaker 3: Think someone there with you that you can trust that

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Speaker 3: you were able to get out together and have a

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Speaker 3: safe place to go.

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Speaker 2: So just hearing your story and it just you following

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Speaker 2: your gut, and I'm happy to hear that you acknowledged something.

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Speaker 2: And I think that was one of the questions that

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Speaker 2: we had because not a lot of men came forward

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Speaker 2: throughout this process, and knowing that there were men in

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Speaker 2: there that acknowledged that there's something wrong, like this is

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Speaker 2: not right, and the fact that you in a way

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Speaker 2: are an ally and you were like, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go with my gut here, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to believe the women, and I'm going to get

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Speaker 2: out of here. And so thank you for you know,

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Speaker 2: standing your ground and going with that gut feeling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But not only that though. The reason I'm doing

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Speaker 1: this because when the righteous man doesn't stand up, evil

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Speaker 1: will try them. Right, we need to stand up. This

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Speaker 1: is wrong, this is evil.

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Speaker 2: When we return the conclusion to our conversation with Andrew,

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Speaker 2: this is forgive me for I have followed.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's

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Speaker 3: the conclusion of our conversation with Andrew. Since leaving Chakaina,

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Speaker 3: has your relationship been like with religion and with your faith?

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Speaker 3: Do you feel like it played a role in like distrust?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, big time. My wife can see it, you know.

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Speaker 1: But I don't trust big organization anymore where it requires devotions.

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Speaker 1: It's so hard to like, hey, I'm gonna follow this church,

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Speaker 1: you know whatever they say, You're gonna volunteer for this

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Speaker 1: or no, you don't tell me what to do anymore.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then if they tell a sermon and they show

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Speaker 1: a scripture and then they explain it, I was like,

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Speaker 1: hold on, what's the context of the whole thing? You know,

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Speaker 1: I was able to detach myself like, now I'm not

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Speaker 1: fully invested on your sermon. Let me think for myself,

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Speaker 1: let me use my critical thinking on this. So the

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Speaker 1: relationship is there, but very very fragile. If you make

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Speaker 1: a single mode that like, that's not right. I'm outside.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So what.

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Speaker 2: Steps have you taken to heal and how have you

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Speaker 2: worked to open your mind to new experiences since then?

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Speaker 1: It's a long process, you know, I'm struggling. I work

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Speaker 1: for Chios in the mom selling piercing, making minimum wage,

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Speaker 1: riding bicycles every day. I was like, man, it's not living,

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Speaker 1: it's not fun. And you know, I'm agent. I want

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Speaker 1: a chief, right or something bigger and better. Until one

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Speaker 1: day my uncle from Sacramento invited me to move to Sacramento.

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Speaker 1: And I moved to Sacramento twenty eleven and I still

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Speaker 1: continue my college degree and graduate twenty nineteen with Business

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Speaker 1: and Science bachelor degree and finance science, and I work

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Speaker 1: for a sushi restaurant mconey.

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Speaker 4: I love mcconey's.

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Speaker 1: There as the bartender, and I get to senior people

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Speaker 1: and oh, people are different. It's not the way she

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Speaker 1: kind of picture people outside this ch kinda they actually friendly,

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Speaker 1: they actually smart, open book, lots of ideas, creative. I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is like, this is different. And then

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Speaker 1: I started changing a little bit here and there. And

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Speaker 1: then one day my friend, one of our for workers,

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Speaker 1: she does cross It, and she told us like, hey,

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Speaker 1: my gym has a promo and then just try it

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Speaker 1: for mud, and then we try it for I got

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Speaker 1: involved with that and I loved it and that become

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Speaker 1: a member of that. It's kind of like a cult,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. I could do whatever WAN want.

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Speaker 4: For got to disappoin it.

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Speaker 1: But that opens my mind even more, Like I want

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Speaker 1: to try that, I want to try this food, I

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Speaker 1: want to try this culture. I'm not I have so

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Speaker 1: much freedom. I'm like, Wow, this is why I've been

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Speaker 1: missing in Chicaina, you know. So, and then I explored

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Speaker 1: jiu jitsu. Oh there's a better package that I don't

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Speaker 1: want to open. I just get into it three years ago,

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Speaker 1: you know, just opened mine. It's just like keep opening

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Speaker 1: up saying oh I can what can else I can open?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, congratulations on finishing college and getting into new things

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Speaker 3: and expanding your minds.

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Speaker 4: Like I know, it takes so much dedication.

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Speaker 3: And when I had joined Chicina, I actually dropped out

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Speaker 3: of school and I'm in the process of re enrolling

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Speaker 3: now so I could finish getting my bachelor. So it's

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Speaker 3: like that move to Sacramento going back to school.

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Speaker 4: I see it.

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Speaker 3: And this has really just inspired me to really finish

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Speaker 3: the things that I was supposed to finish before.

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Speaker 4: So thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate.

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Speaker 1: Hearing that, Yeah, you can do it. I don't like school,

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Speaker 1: but I did it anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what would you say to someone that is currently

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Speaker 2: involved in a cult like environment or high controlled group

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Speaker 2: and might be wanting to get out or recently got

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Speaker 2: out and trying to find what would be helpful for

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Speaker 2: them to heal.

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Speaker 1: So this words before my mom passed away. If she

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Speaker 1: came to the church to check it out and she

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Speaker 1: loves it, I was like, oh wow, I love the

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Speaker 1: music because we played hill song and stuff right and

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Speaker 1: I was rocking out too at the time. The last

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Speaker 1: sentence that till today still rings in my ears. Don't

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Speaker 1: be naive. I always ask questions. My business manager here

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Speaker 1: said like, if you don't know why certain thing a

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Speaker 1: certain way, ask the five wives. Usually you will find

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Speaker 1: the answer by the third why. And that's a business

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Speaker 1: principle and it works like magic and everything. My wife

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Speaker 1: hates it, but you get your ends for most of

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Speaker 1: the time. And then if they told you to stop

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Speaker 1: asking why, use your common sense. You gut will tell you.

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Speaker 1: If it's wrong, it's all right. Don't be nice if

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Speaker 1: something too good to be true, ask questions.

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Speaker 2: We'd like to thank Andrew for sharing his story with

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Speaker 2: us on today's episode. We truly appreciate his courage in

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Speaker 2: speaking about his experience, and we wish him all the

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Speaker 2: best on his healing journey.

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Speaker 3: If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate and

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Speaker 3: leave a review. Your support helps us reach more listeners

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Speaker 3: and share these very important stories.

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Speaker 4: This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be

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Speaker 4: back soon.

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Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from

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Speaker 3: WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,

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Speaker 3: hosted by me Kalia Gray, he Me Jess cassabetto Forgive

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Speaker 3: Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson

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00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 3: and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Collia Gray, myself,

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Speaker 3: Wilmer Balderama, Leo Clam and Aaron Burlison at wb Sound.

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Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

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Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

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Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 4: See you next week, See you next week,