1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: Andy before the breakout, was talking about the belief that's 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 2: expressed by the debunkers that people are just looking for 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: fame and fortune when they come forward with strange stories. 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: That is not your experience after interacting with the public 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: for all these years, is it? 7 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 3: No, it isn't. 8 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 4: I mean, one of the attempts that I'm trying to 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 4: make here was strange is to show that. And I'm 10 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 4: not saying necessarily that the book has the biggest and 11 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 4: the best and the most famous cases ever, although it. 12 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 3: Does refer to some of those. 13 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 4: The point that I'm trying to make is this is 14 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 4: what's happening all the time to normal folk who don't 15 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 4: have an ax to grind. 16 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 3: They don't want fame. 17 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 4: They didn't even know that anybody would even be interested 18 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 4: in this story until they met someone like me say, 19 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 4: and that I think is a really important point. So 20 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 4: by gathering all these different testimonies and stories, what I'm 21 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 4: trying to do is but bind a narrative together, so 22 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 4: it isn't just a book of staccato individual stories. In 23 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 4: the end, they begin to tell a story and of 24 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 4: course I analyze them and try to work out what's 25 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 4: going on here? If the skeptics are wrong, what else 26 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 4: could be going on here? But as the book goes on, 27 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 4: you realize that this is just an ongoing part of 28 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 4: our society, of our civilization that we've covered in a 29 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 4: very foolish way, in my view, and that if we 30 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 4: actually uncovered that and began to look at it, the 31 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 4: implications for who we are as a species and what's 32 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 4: going on in the world. It's absolutely massive. And what 33 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 4: I'm trying to do also is to say, let's understand 34 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 4: this and let's celebrate it. Let's not keep seeing it 35 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 4: as an aberration, because scientists are forever telling us that, 36 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 4: you know, through quantum research, whatever, that the universe is 37 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 4: a very strange place. Time seems to go backwards and forwards. 38 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 4: Things can coexist in different places. The universe is a 39 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 4: leaky place. It doesn't run for may to be. When 40 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 4: you look at that, you think, well, the paranormal actually 41 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 4: is probably an inevitability rather than an aberration. Let's start 42 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 4: treating it like that and accept it as a part 43 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 4: of our world, and then maybe more people can come 44 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 4: on board and we can all be open about it 45 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 4: and we can start to research it properly, because you know, 46 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 4: one day, I believe science will explain all of this, 47 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 4: but not the current scientism. 48 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 3: That's the problem we've got. 49 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 4: Real science should look at everything, and I do believe 50 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 4: the time will come when it will. 51 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and those things that you discussed in this book 52 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: would no longer be considered paranormal, meaning outside of what 53 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: we know, right. 54 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 55 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 4: I mean, listen, the paranormal is, of course just science 56 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 4: that we haven't yet identified. 57 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 3: Everything in the end has an explanation. 58 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 4: And the supernatural, which can be the same as the paranormal, 59 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 4: not always, but you know, it just means beyond paranormal 60 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 4: means it's a mixture of Latin and Greek. It means 61 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 4: beyond the normal. People assume therefore you mean supernatural, and 62 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 4: there's a crossover there. So if something very unusual happens, 63 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 4: you know it's beyond the normal, you can say it's paranormal. 64 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 4: But supernatural certainly does imply the existence of other realities. 65 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 4: And of course, again you know, that's what scientists keep 66 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 4: telling us, that there are other realities. But if you 67 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 4: then presume that those are going to cross over into 68 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 4: our world every now and then, as for instance, events 69 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 4: that skin walk arage might seem to suggest. Then they 70 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 4: can't go there. Then they shut you down. And that 71 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 4: makes no sense to me at all. 72 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: Well, when you think about our senses, you know, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 73 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: they developed over millennia in order for us to be 74 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: able to navigate this world and survive. But scientists will 75 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: admit to you that most of reality we can't sense it. 76 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: We can't see wi fi, you know, X rays or 77 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: something like that. You know, things that are realities now 78 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: would have been witchcraft two centuries ago. And we don't 79 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: see a dark matter. We haven't found it yet, which 80 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: is ninety some percent of the universe. So it's a 81 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: basic fact that so much of reality that goes on 82 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: around us we can't sense even if we wanted to. 83 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a very good point, and I make that 84 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 4: point actually in the book that many of the things 85 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 4: we are supposed to accept the scientific principles actually haven't 86 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 4: yet been proved, dark matter being a very good example, 87 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 4: and I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but you know 88 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 4: that's something you're expected to take on trust. But when 89 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 4: you say, well, why don't you take on trust, say, 90 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 4: all these ghost experiences or out of body experiences or 91 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 4: psychic phenomena, whatever it may be, which I discussed at length, 92 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 4: why can't you then accept it just because you haven't 93 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 4: personally experienced that maybe it does exist, but it's all no, no, no, 94 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 4: of course that can't exist. So there's a double standard here, 95 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 4: which is very annoy. 96 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: You've developed the paranormal top ten and have it in 97 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: this book on page fourteen, meaning the phenomena that you 98 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: hear about the most, and number one is ghosts and 99 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: pulper days. And you've had some experiences yourself, right. 100 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. It's funny because until I came to write this book, 101 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 4: I never really thought that much about how many strange 102 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 4: things had happened to me. 103 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: As well. I knew that'd been a cluple and I thought, well, 104 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: I'll share them in the. 105 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 4: Book because it's important then to see why I do 106 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 4: take other people seriously. And then actually, by the time 107 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 4: i'd written down all the things that had happened to me, yeah, 108 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 4: I realized I've got a lot of weird stuff I 109 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: haven't know, and that's I think similar to a lot 110 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 4: of people. But we screened might work, but we're time 111 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 4: replayed twice over. 112 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 3: Where that story tell us. I mean, I mean, that 113 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: is an amazing story. Really. 114 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: I was about twelve or thirteen. My grandfather was very ill. 115 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 4: We knew he was due to die at some point, 116 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 4: but we thought he had a few months to go. 117 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 4: So my family we went on holiday and we were 118 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 4: staying in a kinlistatic trailer in the countryside, nice place, 119 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 4: and one morning I looked out of the window and 120 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 4: there I saw coming down the road my mother. 121 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: There was a path coming down to the trailer, and 122 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 3: she was crying, and I thought, oh, no, I knew. 123 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: I thought, I bet my grandfather's died. Anyway. 124 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 4: She came in and absolutely he had, and there was tears, 125 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 4: and my sisters were there, and you know, my father 126 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 4: was trying to comfort her. And this went on for 127 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 4: several minutes, and then I woke up and it was like, oh, 128 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: oh God, it was a dream. It was a very 129 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 4: real dream. And I was very relieved, as you would be, 130 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 4: that it was only a dream. But then I had 131 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 4: a really weird feeling. I looked out the window just 132 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: as I had in the dream, and there in reality 133 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 4: as my mother walking down the path, crying, and then 134 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 4: everything that unfolded over the next few minutes was exactly 135 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: what I had just already experienced. And I knew exactly 136 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 4: who was going to do, what they were going to say, 137 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 4: who was going to cross the room to get a 138 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 4: tissue over there, or whatever it might be, And it 139 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 4: was I was standing there like in war and almost 140 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 4: like shaken, like I don't understand. I know what's going 141 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 4: to happen. I've lived this already, and thankfully when it 142 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 4: got to the moment where previously then I had woken up, 143 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 4: I didn't re wake up again, and then time just 144 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 4: took its normal course, and I was utterly astonished. And 145 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 4: of course in all the drama, nobody wanted to hear 146 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 4: my story back then, But over the years I've told 147 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 4: me and said, look, it's like I experienced that twice. 148 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 4: And of course now over the years I've met other 149 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 4: people who've had very strange experiences with time. They've slipped 150 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: back through time, you know, and again you begin to realize, 151 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 4: maybe this is. 152 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: Actually not so impossible. 153 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 4: That sometimes time jumps tracks and sometimes it gets stuck 154 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 4: in a groove and briefly replays itself. And I've experienced 155 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 4: that for myself, and I was so vivid, you know, 156 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 4: I remember it perfectly today. So this kind of thing 157 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: it does go on. I know it happens because I 158 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 4: hear from other people. But I also know it happens 159 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 4: because I've had so many things that occurred to me 160 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 4: as well. 161 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: You break down a ghostly type of phenomena into many 162 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: different categories and have stories to back them all up, 163 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: one of them being visitations after death. I think I 164 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: think almost every family I know has some sort of 165 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: an example of that that's in family lore, that they 166 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: whisper to you in a special moment there where somebody dies, 167 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: then they visit their loved ones. Can you share some 168 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: of those with us? 169 00:08:58,400 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: Yeah? 170 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 4: And the very point that you make there that's astonishing, 171 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 4: isn't it. 172 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? Exactly. 173 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 4: So many of us know people who you know, when 174 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 4: a relative has passed away, they'll have some interaction with them, 175 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 4: and it generally it's only in the few days after 176 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 4: they go and then on the whole it seems to end, 177 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 4: although not always. Sometimes there is an ongoing interaction where 178 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 4: you know, the past relative will appear and they'll even 179 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 4: have full conversations or whatever. I have heard this over 180 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 4: and over from so many people. But reductionists say, well, 181 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 4: of course you miss these people. You know you want 182 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 4: this to occur, so you imagine it occurred. And that's 183 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 4: just not good enough, especially when you know, I've interviewed 184 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 4: a number of people where two or more people were 185 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 4: present when the apparition occurred. So how are they all 186 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 4: having the same trick of the mind. 187 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: They can't be. 188 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 4: And you know, the point that I make is there's 189 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 4: been people in my life who I've lost, who I 190 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 4: would have loved to have seen again, and they didn't 191 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 4: appear to me. So just willing it to happen doesn't 192 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 4: make it happen, no matter what the skeptics might say. 193 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 4: So you then begin to realize, okay, so this would 194 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 4: appear to be real. There seems to be almost like 195 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 4: when you cross from this world into whatever the next 196 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 4: world may be, there's a grace moment where you get 197 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 4: a little bit of a chance to go back and 198 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 4: just tie up a few loose ends, just comfort some 199 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 4: of the people that you know you've left behind. And 200 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 4: it's usually one, occasionally two people that perhaps that other 201 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 4: person is very close to, and it's it is very 202 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 4: comforting to those that have this experience, it's almost like 203 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 4: you realize the essence of that person has not gone, 204 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 4: it's become something else. And yet you know it's so 205 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: reduced with this patronizing or you just imagined it. 206 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: It's not good enough, and. 207 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 4: It's not good enough to explain many other ghost sightings 208 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 4: and indeed a lot of other paranormal phenomena that need much, 209 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 4: much greater consideration. 210 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: What are your subcategories as about people who die they 211 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: appear to a loved one who does not know that 212 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 2: they're dead, and then later the loved one finds out 213 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 2: that at the time that this person was visiting and 214 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 2: talking to them, they were already gone. 215 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 3: Correct. 216 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, this is another thing is so especially if 217 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 4: people die and it's not very nice, but if they 218 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,479 Speaker 4: die quickly in like a car accident or something, it's strange. 219 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 4: That seems to be often when it's almost like the 220 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 4: spirit call it what you will, it's got shocked out 221 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 4: of the body and it at that very moment, so 222 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 4: it goes somewhere where. 223 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: It's comfortable or it's used to being. 224 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 4: And so a relative then we'll just see this person 225 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 4: at the door, or they'll see them in the house. 226 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 3: So Hello, what are you doing here? I thought you 227 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: were out and about today, And there. 228 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 4: Will usually be again a kind of a message of 229 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 4: comfort saying, oh, no, I just wanted to say hello, 230 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 4: and so I just popped in to see you. And 231 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 4: then the relative leaves the house or whatever, and they 232 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 4: on and the other ones left thinking I don't understand 233 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 4: what was that about, and then they discover, usually not 234 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 4: long after that, that was the exact moment where that 235 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 4: person had been killed. 236 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: And it's almost like there's there's there's. 237 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 4: This weird liminal time where you get a chance to 238 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 4: just interact before you then cross over elsewhere. And that 239 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 4: is again something that is so common. And the fact 240 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 4: that these people that you know, the living sea are 241 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 4: so real that they don't even know they're a ghost. 242 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 4: They're not sitting there shimmering. They just look normal tells 243 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 4: you something. You know, that ghosts are not always a 244 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 4: person in a white sheet. You know, this is this 245 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 4: is normality. It just looks normal, and yet of course 246 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 4: it isn't normal in the accepted sense of that. But yeah, 247 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 4: it's going on all the time. And of course there's 248 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: many other kinds of ghosts where the more classic ones 249 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 4: where it's not someone you know, and people will see 250 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 4: somebody can walk out of a wall and walk into 251 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 4: another wall or whatever. And I've made for instance, tour 252 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 4: guides in old historical buildings who've been present where the 253 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 4: whole group of people witness this. So again that's not 254 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 4: one thing going on in one person's mind. That is 255 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 4: a phenomenon. 256 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 2: You draw a distinction between ghosts and poultergeist, of course, 257 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 2: I want you to explain that in this context you 258 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: had mentioned skinwalker rant. So there's a lot of really 259 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 2: strange activity there that probably would be closer to the 260 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: Poultergeist category. Things moving around doors, slamming drawers, opening groceries, 261 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: going back in bags and higher cords of wood that 262 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: move around, and equipment that goes missing and is found 263 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: in odd places later. I know that the scientists and 264 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: investigators who were looking at that they kind of called 265 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: it Poultergeist. They don't mean it's a ghost or a spirit. 266 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: It just compared it to what we know about Poultergeist activity. 267 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: So how do you draw the distinction ghost to Poultergeist. 268 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 4: I mean, one thing that I think is worth saying 269 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 4: here is so if we accept as we keep being 270 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 4: told scientists that it is a multi dimensional universe and 271 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 4: that there are other levels of existence. You also have 272 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 4: to accept that occasionally they must cross over into our world. 273 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 4: And I think places like skinwalk garage or very haunted houses, 274 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 4: for instance, they're basically portals. For some reason, something has 275 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 4: torn time and space open at that place and it 276 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 4: becomes a weak point where beings from these other realms 277 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 4: can come through. Now, some may be the spirits of 278 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 4: people who've gone. Others may be aliens of some kind, 279 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 4: or just other realm creatures. You can call them angels, 280 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 4: you call them demons. What to me it is is 281 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 4: a spectrum. There are multi dimensions, and things crossover, and 282 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 4: maybe they're all and none of these things, but there 283 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 4: is something that binds together. And as the book goes on, 284 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 4: you start to see that actually all of this meets 285 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 4: in the middle, and when you accept the universe is leaky, 286 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 4: it makes sense. So poltergeist te activity is often associated 287 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 4: with ghosts, and I know there are some psychic researchers 288 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 4: who say it's nothing to do with spirits and ghosts. 289 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 4: It is a psychic phenomena. Often it would seem associated 290 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 4: with an adolescent child. More often than not female, and 291 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 4: it may well be the case there is some psychokinetic 292 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 4: force that can move objects they don't even know they're 293 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 4: doing it. However, what I would say is in my 294 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: personal experience, and I discussed this in Strange there is 295 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 4: normally ghost activity of a more traditional kind also going on. 296 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 3: And again it. 297 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 4: Seems to me that maybe there is a place or 298 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 4: there is a person in the house that is acting 299 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 4: as a living portal that will bring through not only 300 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 4: their own psychokinetic powers, but also they're somehow opening doorways 301 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 4: for spirits to come through at the same time. To me, 302 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 4: it is linked, and I don't go down the road 303 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 4: that it is a completely separate phenomenon. It can be, 304 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 4: but equally I see there is a crossover. And the 305 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 4: more you look at the different cases that I recount 306 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 4: in the book, the more you realize, yeah, okay, there 307 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 4: is something joined together here. And often politiceist activity of 308 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 4: things moving around or flying around will often then give 309 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 4: rise to the full sighting of an apparition of a 310 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 4: person or a ghost or some kind of being. 311 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: So to me it is related here. 312 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: You look at Hollywood movies, the ghost movies are often 313 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: pretty scary, and you know. I know that from your 314 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: book and others that I've read, these encounters can be 315 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: wrighting the heck out of somebody. You don't know what 316 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: it is, and it is spooky, but also you look 317 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: at the big picture as you document, it becomes very 318 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: comforting in a way that we learn that somehow that 319 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: part of us, the part that's infinite, I guess, goes on, 320 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: maybe go somewhere else, but it's still around. 321 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 322 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: one am Easter and go to Coast to Coasta m 323 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: dot com for more