1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Search podcast. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: My guest today is singer songwriter Paul Brady. Paul, last year, 3 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: you put out an autobiography, Crazy Dreams. What inspired you 4 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 1: to lay down your story at this point? 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: Well, I suppose it was to try and remember what 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: happened to me. It's so easy to forget what goes on, 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: and I spent you know, I used to take notes 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 2: all the time, not a diary per se, but I 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: would always sort of when anything exciting happened, I would 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: sort of write it up. So I just wanted to 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: keep a record and as much to try and understand 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: myself as anything else. 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: What did you learn about yourself writing the. 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: Book That I'm a bit of a lone wolf. I 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: guess that that that I sort of dabbled in and 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: out of everything. I was kind of a multi lingual 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 2: musically speaking, and you know, not everybody that I knew 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: in the music business was like that. I mean, I 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: came through three or four different types of music in 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: my career. But all the time, I suppose I felt 21 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: that I was a bit of a lone wolf. And 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: for better. 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: Or for worse, tell me more about being a lone wolf, 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: not only in the music business, but in life. 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, I suppose you're happy in your own company 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: for a start, you're happier. I suppose listening and talking 27 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: and a lot of what passes for the mainstream you 28 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 2: tend to sort of worry about and see through, and 29 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: you tend to want to be I'm sort of on 30 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: the on the periphery of everything, you know, And that's 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: the way I've always been. I've never I've been terminally 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: non aligned in terms of politics, in terms of musical tastes, 33 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: in terms of social morays. You know, I've just been 34 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: someone who's you know, I've plowed my own furrow. 35 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: I guess. Well, in the book, you're constantly calling on 36 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: friends to play on the records, to go on the road. 37 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: You know, you talk about being a lone wolf. Is 38 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: that difficult for you to have social anxiety? Or it's 39 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: just in your views and lifestyle that you're a lone wolf. 40 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: I think it's just in my views and lifestyle. I mean, 41 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: I'm a sociable animal, you know. I like a bit 42 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 2: of crack like everybody else. And you know, I tour solo. 43 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 2: I play solo quite a bit. But I also love 44 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: playing with the band, and you know, I'll go through 45 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: like a year playing solo and then I'll miss the 46 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: camaraderie and and the kickoff the ass of the band, 47 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: you know, and so I'll spend a year doing that. 48 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: And I mean again, I'm fortunate in that that I 49 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: found it easy to do both and saw the beauty 50 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: in both. You know. 51 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lot in the book about Ireland, in 52 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, and I just read a book called The 53 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: Beasting by Paul Murray, very highly reviewed, and you realize, 54 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: as much as we think outside of Ireland we know 55 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: what's going on, we really don't. So explain to my 56 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: audience the difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of 57 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: Ireland where you sit on that. 58 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: Oh, dear, dear, dear, well, Well, Northern Ireland is part 59 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: of the United Kingdom, and a lot of people think 60 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: that's a good thing, and a lot of people think 61 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: it's not. And that has sort of been at the 62 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: route of a lot of antagonism and over the last 63 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: one hundred couple of years. But you know, in the 64 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: last couple of decades things have quite done quite a bit. 65 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: People are much more accepting of each other. And whereas 66 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,679 Speaker 2: it's not like walk in the park, the relationship between 67 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: the two parts of the country. You know, things are 68 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: a lot better than they wear. I mean, it's as 69 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: much connected with the United Kingdom the problems as anything 70 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: else than I mean, and the United Kingdom is having 71 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: their own problems at the moment. A lot of people 72 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: in Northern Ireland think that England doesn't really care about 73 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 2: them and just to soon see them go. And but 74 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: that's that's this is a very long one. You know, 75 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: you might as well try and talk to me about 76 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: the Middle East diabob because it's that complicated. 77 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're talking to a American. We're ignorant. Let's 78 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: start a little bit back. Tell me about the Irish 79 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: War of Independence. 80 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: Oh, dear, well, the Irish War of Independence was the 81 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: next in a whole many series of revolutions, failed revolutions 82 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: since the arrival of Britain. And you know, in the 83 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred and sixteen hundreds, and of course, you know, 84 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: it never really left the public imagination, the notion that 85 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: we wanted to be Ireland, to be for the Irish. 86 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: And you know, the nineteen sixteen Revolution was just the 87 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: most recent one of all those attempts, and you know, 88 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: in one way failed it failed, but in another way 89 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: it it heralded in independence of a sort up until 90 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: the mid forties, when Ireland became a republic, or the 91 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: south of Ireland became a republic. 92 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: Okay, when did the division of Northern and Southern Ireland 93 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: take place? 94 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: Nineteen twenty two? I think yeah, round about you know, 95 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 2: the revolution was in the nineteen sixteen, and then the 96 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: War of Independence was it sort of grumbled along for 97 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 2: a couple of years, but blew out right into the 98 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: open in nineteen nineteen. It went on and on until 99 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: twenty two, and that's as far as I can recall 100 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: when on Northern Ireland the statelet was kind of invented. 101 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: And then of course there was the Irish Civil War 102 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: because that invention was on foot of a treaty that 103 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: was signed and half the people in the Republic of 104 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: Ireland agreed with the treaty and the other half didn't, 105 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: and so that ushered in the Irish Civil War nineteen 106 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: twenty two twenty three, and that was pretty gruesome. But 107 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: you know, since then there haven't been any outright wars. 108 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: But you know, it's only in the last decade or 109 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: so that things have kind of settled down to, you know, 110 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: a state were not everybody's terrified all the time. 111 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: Okay, you grow up in Derry, which to my understanding 112 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: is Northern Ireland. I grew up in Connecticut. You spend 113 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: time in Norwalk, which is not far from where I 114 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: grew up. But I'm not in Connecticut thinking about I 115 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: was thinking about the Vietnam War, but I'm not thinking 116 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: about whether Connecticut is part of the United States or something. 117 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: You're growing up in Northern Ireland. To what degree is 118 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: politics of presence in your mind and going around. 119 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: Well, it's I mean, it's it's there all the time, 120 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: because you know, politics dictates the social fabric and. 121 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: You know. 122 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: But the other upside of it was that, you know, 123 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: I lived on the border. I lived in Straban actually, 124 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: which was a few miles south of Derry. I went 125 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: to school in Derry. But one of the upsides was 126 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 2: that that you had two cultures you could share, you know, 127 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: I mean, living right on the border, I was able 128 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: to share in the culture of Ireland and the Republic, 129 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: and also in the culture of Britain and the BBC 130 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: and pop radio from England and all that, and so 131 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: you know it wasn't all a black and white thing. 132 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: There were ups and downs. 133 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: And tell me what the friction is between the Protestants 134 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: and the Catholics. 135 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: Well, it's, oh, well, it's about different, it's about it's tribal, 136 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: simple as that. You know, it's simply tribal. It's a 137 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: different tribe. You see, when Britain conquered Ireland in the 138 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 2: seventeenth century, they ushered in hundreds of thousands of people 139 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: from from across the water and took the land of 140 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: the Irish people and and in what was called the plantations, 141 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: the plantations of Ulster. So basically that was a whole 142 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: tribe coming in and throwing another tribe on the scrap heap. 143 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: And you know, as we all know when we look 144 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: around the world, even in the contemporary scene, you know, 145 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: tribalism is still very much alive. 146 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: Okay. So we know that subsequent to World War two, 147 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: things were in black and white in the UK and 148 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: there were you know, lack of certain things, etc. What 149 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: does the average American know about Ireland? There was a 150 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: potato famine in the eighteen hundreds, and then you read 151 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: books about our houses in the twentieth century. What was 152 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: the standard of life when you were growing up. 153 00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: Well, you know, my parents were school teachers, uh primary 154 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: school teachers, and so they both had had a kind 155 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: of an annual salary. So like whereas we weren't sort 156 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 2: of rich or anything, you know, we didn't want, we 157 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: were comfortable enough. We could take take a vacation, you know, 158 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: a couple of times a year, and you know, but 159 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: but people were a lot poorer than that than they 160 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: are now. There wasn't as much opportunity to to make money, 161 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: and it was a lot more primitive times. You know, 162 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: Ireland was just a new state, you know, only a 163 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: couple of decades by that stage, and we were it 164 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: was a very poor country and so people didn't have 165 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: a lot to throw around and it was a struggle. 166 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: But you know, I was one of the fortunate generations 167 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: because in the late forties Britain decreed that anybody that 168 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 2: was had got a certain degree of privss in school exams, 169 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: got a free got a free education, college scholarship to university. 170 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: So that gave a whole generation me included of the 171 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: forty somethings, the fifty somethings, the chance to go to 172 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: third level education which utterly changed the social and educational 173 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: and political map of Northern Ireland. And so I always 174 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 2: feel grateful for that. 175 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: Okay, I don't want to harp on this issue, but 176 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: you're going to elementary school, primary school. To all the 177 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: kids you're going to school with, do they all have 178 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: indoor plumbing? 179 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, you know, there might have been a 180 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: couple of toilets out the back, you know, But but 181 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: people had electricity and running water of course, yeah, and 182 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: you know, and food and heat. You know, it's you know, 183 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: it's just it wasn't a rich society. I was unique 184 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: in a way. Most education, even to this day, both 185 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: in Northern Ireland and the Republic, is segregated into first 186 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: first of all gender segregation and secondly religious Catholic schools 187 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: Protestant schools. You know, that was the way it was 188 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: all the time. But I went to a school which 189 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: was mixed religion and mixed gender. And because it was 190 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: a school set up by Quakers in the nineteenth century 191 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: who owned a linen mill in the in the village 192 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: of Sian Mills, which was three miles south of where 193 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: I lived in Straban, and my mother was one of 194 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: the teachers there. So I went to school with girls 195 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: and boys, elementary school with girls and boys, and with 196 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: all religions, and of course, like all children, you think 197 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: that's the way everybody is. And it was only until 198 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: I got a lot older that I realized that that 199 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: was a very unusual thing to happen. And I again, 200 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: I'm extremely grateful for that, because I grew up not 201 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: thinking that the other tribe had two heads. 202 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you're growing up. How much television is 203 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: there and how much radio is there? 204 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of We didn't get a television 205 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: until nineteen fifty eight, I think it was I was 206 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: just going to boarding school, and the whole thing at 207 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: the time was, oh, television will distract the kids from 208 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: their education, and it's you know, it's a big intrusion 209 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: into into the life. So but but I said, when 210 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: I came home from for Christmas holidays that that year, 211 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: my first year in boarding school, there was a television 212 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: in the house, a black and white television which had 213 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: Irish Television one or two stations, and also had the BBC, 214 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: so we were able to see all the all the 215 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: music that came from the BBC in the sixties, you know, 216 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: the fifties, sixties, Top of the Pops, you know, all 217 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: the big you know, when the when the British pop 218 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: music booms started in the late fifties earliest sixties. We 219 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: were able to see all that on television in Northern Ireland, 220 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: whereas in the Republic they didn't get to see that 221 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: because they didn't get the BBC there. So we you know, 222 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: I mean, there was a broad multicultural feel growing up 223 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: where I grew up. 224 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: Just so I understand is Northern Ireland is controlled by 225 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: the UK. They didn't get BBC. They did get BBC 226 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland. Oh, the Republic of Ireland didn't, right right, 227 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: I want to make sure that I had that clear, Okay. 228 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: So throughout your book there's a long discussion and emphasis 229 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: of traditional Irish music. In America, we don't really have that. 230 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: Maybe country in Western but you're listening to the radio 231 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: growing up, what are you listening to? 232 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 2: Well, I would dispute that you don't have it in America. 233 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: In every single hamlet in America, in every single town 234 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: and city amid the Irish community, there is a hugely 235 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: healthy Irish music scene and there are festivals all over 236 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: the States all summer long, large festivals that deal with 237 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: Irish music. But that said, I mean, Irish music was 238 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: just a part of the music that I heard when 239 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: I was growing up. I mean, like I said, it 240 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: was British and American pop music. You know. We used 241 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: to listen to Radio Luxembourg, which was originally a European 242 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: station which then started to broadcast out of London. And 243 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: what happened was that a lot of the American soldiers 244 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 2: who were stationed in Germany would have all these records 245 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: that were coming out in the States in the late fifties, 246 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: you know, Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Eddie Cochrane, Jean Vincent, 247 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff was was coming into Germany 248 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: with an American serviceman and that ended up on Radio Luxembourg, 249 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: and so we heard I heard all this kind of 250 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 2: stuff well, you know, in the late fifties, and so 251 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: I was totally I was like a blotting paper. I 252 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: just soaked, soaked it all in and all kinds of 253 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: music I listened to, you know, I mean, I didn't 254 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: sort of differentiate between genres of music. It didn't make 255 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 2: any sense to me to do that it was just 256 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: is it good or is it bad? Is it fun 257 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: or is it awful to listen to? I just took 258 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 2: it all on board and found, like as I said earlier, 259 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 2: that I was multi lingual. I was I was able 260 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: easy to be fluent and a vast and a big, 261 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: big variety of music. 262 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm a little younger than you. I was. 263 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: Certainly I'm a little late for Elvis, but I remember 264 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: the Beach Boys in the Four Seasons. But when the 265 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: Beatles hit, it was literally a revolution in America. What 266 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: was the bug that got you going on popular music 267 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: that you said, Wow, this is something I have to 268 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: dedicate all my time to. 269 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: Well, it was just totally visceral. I mean, I mean 270 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 2: the first time you hear little Richard singing long, tall 271 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 2: sally like, I mean, you're going what you know, I 272 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 2: have never heard anything like this before, and by god, 273 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: is it exciting. And it was just hugely exciting and inspiring. 274 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,239 Speaker 2: And you know, I felt, hey, I want a bit 275 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: of that. I want to I want to open my 276 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: mouth and let I yell out and see what comes out. 277 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: And so I started singing, and you know, just for fun, 278 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 2: and I got a guitar from the eleventh birthday, and 279 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: I taught myself because there were no other guitar players 280 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 2: near me, and the only lesson you could get was 281 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 2: classical music, and that's not really what I was into. 282 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 2: So I kind of taught myself three or four cards, 283 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: and I just kept learning through my teens and and 284 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 2: playing at parties and you know, and it wasn't really 285 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 2: until I went to college in nineteen sixty four that 286 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: I you know, Harbard sort of seditious thoughts about being 287 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: a musician rather than a teacher. 288 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: So you say your parents were teachers, how did they 289 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: afford for you to go to boarding school? And what 290 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: was your experience at boarding school? 291 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: Well, the education at boarding school was free. They had 292 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: to pay for the accommodation, and you know, they just 293 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: made that sacrifice because it was an opportunity that they 294 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: didn't have, and so I'm grateful to them for that. 295 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: But I hated boarding school for a start. As I 296 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: said earlier, I'd come from an elementary school of mixed 297 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: religions and mixed gender. This boarding school was was a 298 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: Catholic boarding school, and it was all boys, and I saw, 299 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just immediately to me how stupid 300 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: this is. You know, where's the other half of that 301 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: of humanity? 302 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: You know? 303 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: And I just I didn't like being in a school. 304 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 2: It was all just one one sex and one religion. 305 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 2: And you know, there wasn't an awful lot of interest 306 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: in the arts in this school. It was it had 307 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: a good reputation for academia for you know, mathematics, in English, poetry, 308 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: all the sort of the basic things, but they didn't 309 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: really value music. And I just felt that, you know, 310 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: I wasn't even allowed to bring a guitar to boarding school, 311 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: you know, because guitar means rock and roll music, which 312 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 2: is bad, you know. So I mean that was ridiculous, 313 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: and so I just basically didn't like boarding school. I 314 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 2: couldn't wait to get out of it. 315 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: Okay. In the book, you talk about going for summer 316 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: vacation with your parents at the beach and they're being 317 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: show bands and then ultimately playing with the showbands. What 318 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: exactly is a show band. 319 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: Show band is a bunch of musicians, you know, maybe 320 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: an eight piece band. You might have a drums, bass, keyboard, 321 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: tenor sacks, trumpet, trombone, a couple of guitars, and a 322 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: singer and well maybe three or four singers maybe the 323 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: other instrumentalists would would sing backups. And you know, they 324 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 2: would do all the hits today, you know, they they 325 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: would whatever was on top of the pops English television 326 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: the week before, the show band would learn it, and 327 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: the following weekend at the dances they'd be playing cover 328 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: versions of the British and American hits and and some 329 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 2: Irish hits too. I mean, people were starting to write 330 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: songs in Ireland and so there wasn't much of an 331 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: infrastructure for musicians to write their own songs at the time. 332 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 2: And there was a huge dancing culture in Ireland. Every 333 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: weekend and every town in Ireland there were dance halls 334 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: where all the young people would go and meet, meet 335 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: up and and that, and that's for the show bands play. 336 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: And there were like hundreds of show bands in Ireland 337 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: at the time, and you know, some of them were 338 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: extremely good. In fact, a few of them went to 339 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: Las Vegas and the Royal show Band played in I 340 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 2: see a couple of seasons in Las Vegas, and you know, 341 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: and the Tour of America. But they were essentially an 342 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 2: Irish phenomenon. 343 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: And how did you end up playing in a show band. 344 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: I didn't play in a show band. I played in 345 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: a hotel, just a sort of a little cabaret band 346 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: in a hotel in nineteen sixty two sixty three, when 347 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: I was like my early teens and I was too 348 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 2: young to play in a show band. It was only like, 349 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: as I said, when I went to Dublin later in 350 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: the decade. I was seventeen years old, eighteen years old 351 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: when I went to UCD in Dublin, and that's when 352 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: I started to play in serio music outfits. But I 353 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: know I didn't play in the show band, just a 354 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 2: little cabarety band. 355 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: Okay, how do you end up going to college in Dublin. 356 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting question. My sister, three years older 357 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: than me, went to Queen's University in Belfast, which was 358 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,479 Speaker 2: I suppose where logically I should have gone if I 359 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 2: got to if I passed my exams. But I did 360 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 2: pass my exams, and the year I applied to go 361 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: to Belfast to Queen's Universities in Belfast, there was a 362 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 2: superfluity of people applying for the arts faculty. There were 363 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: too many applicants for the number of places, so the 364 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: college in hisst wisdom declared that people born after a 365 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: certain date in the late forties would have to go 366 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 2: back to high school, boarding school for a and repeat 367 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: their final year again. And there was no way I 368 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: was going to go back to boarding school to repeat 369 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: my last year. So we started looking around and my 370 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: parents said, well, let's try Dublin. Let's try UCD in Dublin. 371 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 2: So I applied to UCD and I got in. So 372 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: in October nineteen sixty four, I ended up in Dublin City, 373 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 2: first time I had ever been in Dublin. I'd never 374 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: been more than seventy miles from my home until then, 375 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: and I was on my own in Dublin as a student. 376 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 2: And that was, you know, intimidating, but also extremely exciting. 377 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: And that's where I first started to listen to rhythm 378 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: and blues bands, and because there was loads of them 379 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: in Dublin, and that's how I started to play music 380 00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: in a band. 381 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're going to school. Tell me about you 382 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: start joining bands and playing out in venues. Tell me 383 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: about that. 384 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like there's a small time, you know, 385 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: we were semipro. I mean a lot of the people 386 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: in the bands had daytime jobs. I mean, I was 387 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: supposed to be a student. I wasn't doing and he's 388 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 2: just studying, to be honest, because as soon as I 389 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: got to university, I kind of went, what am I 390 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: doing here? You know? I was doing an arts degree 391 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: studying French Irish language and archaeology, and I wasn't more 392 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: interested than that than well, I just wasn't interested, And 393 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: so I started going to what was that question again? 394 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, you're in college, and to what degree are you 395 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: playing out in clubs in other venues? And does that 396 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: become your life and how does that happen? 397 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 2: Well, yes, I I joined the band, and, like a 398 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: lot of bands in those areas, you know, we lasted 399 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: six months and then I went. Then we all imploded 400 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 2: and became another band and called ourselves a different name. 401 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: And after another six months, I joined another band. So 402 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: I was in three or four bands over the space 403 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: of two college years, and we were playing maybe twice 404 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 2: three times a week. Sometimes. There was a real upsurge 405 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: of venues for what were called beat groups at the time, 406 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: as opposed to show bands, which were the professional guys 407 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: with the snazzy suits and all that. We were the 408 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: grubby beat groups, and we played we played soul music. 409 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 2: We played Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Ray, Charles I, Cantina Turner, 410 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: marvel Ettes, and of the British blues things, John Mayol, 411 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: Spencer Davis. We did covers of of all that stuff. 412 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: And so that's what a lot of the bands in 413 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: Dublin were doing at the time, the younger bands who 414 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: weren't professional. So there were tennis clubs, there were rugby clubs, 415 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: there were a few, you know, maybe half a dozen 416 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: beat music performing clubs, and there were all classes, you know, schools, stuff, 417 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: you know, where people played. At the time, nobody took 418 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: it very seriously. Nobody thought it was going anywhere. Nobody 419 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 2: actually even thought about the future. It was just we're 420 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: having fun playing the music we love, and that's that's 421 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: what kept me going for two years until I was, 422 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: you know, someoneed by the registrar of UCD to explain 423 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: why I hadn't been at lectures for the previous year 424 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 2: and a half. And my parents got word of this 425 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: disgrace and there was an immediate hiatus in my time 426 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: with the bands in Dublin, and there happened to be 427 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: sort of about a six month period where I wasn't 428 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: in the band, but I bought myself an acoustic guitar 429 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: and I was back in Dublin in my final year 430 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: at college and I was playing and what we're now 431 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: just springing up all over the city, things called folk clubs. 432 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: We're talking now sixty six, and of course it started 433 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: earlier in the States. I think Dylan's first album was 434 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: sixty two or something. But it just shows you how 435 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: long it took things to travel in those days. Information 436 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 2: musical information like that didn't happen overnight the way it 437 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: did hear. So there were the folk scenes started in 438 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: Ireland and there were folk groups that were suddenly at 439 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: the top of the charts in Ireland. There was a 440 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: whole two or three year period where it was just 441 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 2: all Irish folk music in Ireland, and I was swept 442 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: up in that, which was very exciting, and I fell 443 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: in love with it and became a very strong arrow 444 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: in my quiver of music from then on and still is. 445 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: All of the seventies, basically, while the world was into 446 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: glam rock, I was into hardcore Irish trad music until 447 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: really the end of the seventies, when I decided I 448 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: wanted to I'd had enough of that and I wanted 449 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: to see if it could be a songwriter. 450 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: So how did it end with you in college? 451 00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: Badly? I just I failed my fine exams and I 452 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: didn't go back to repeat because at that stage I 453 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: had already become a member of a top A chart 454 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: topping Irish folk group. I'd been asked to join that, 455 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: and suddenly I was making a decent living and I 456 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 2: was on television and my parents sort of kind of 457 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: saw some kind of logic in that amid their disappointment, 458 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: because I mean, let's face that, they were teachers, you know, 459 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: so they wanted me to have a degree to fall 460 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: back on was the term, you know. But when you're 461 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 2: that age, you don't want to you don't want to 462 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: think about falling back on anything. 463 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: So how do you end up in the Johnstons? 464 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: Well, that was a series of accidents. I was in 465 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 2: an apartment above one of the members of the band, 466 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 2: and we used to play poker at night and he 467 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: would keep me informed of the the personnel fractions that 468 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: happened within the band, and one point one of the 469 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: members left and I had already been opening for this 470 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: band as a solo folk singer in some of the 471 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: clubs in towns. So they were aware of my music, 472 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: so they asked me to join the band, and this 473 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 2: would have been summer of sixty seven and then from 474 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: then on I was a professional musician. That's I've been 475 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 2: a professional musician since then. 476 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: Okay, what is the status of the Johnston's at that 477 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: point and what. 478 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 2: Is the goal? Well, the Johnson's had just had a 479 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: number one hit in Ireland with the Ewan McCalls song 480 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: called the Traveling People about the Trap, about the Gypsy 481 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: community and the travelers as they're called here, and so 482 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 2: that put them at the top of the charts in Ireland. 483 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: They so we were playing all over the country, making 484 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: big money and on radio and television all the time. 485 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: And then we were discovered by a British label called 486 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: Transatlantic Records, owned by Not Joseph and this was a 487 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 2: really progressive label in the UK at the time. It 488 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: sort of had a lot of the the the upcoming 489 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 2: British folk artists like Pentangle, like Bert Jansk, John Renbourn, 490 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: Billy Connolly was was in the band with Jerry Rafferty 491 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: called the Humble Bombs. They were on Transatlantic Records too, 492 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: the Dubliners for a while, we're on Transatlantic Records and 493 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: not Joseph heard about the Johnstons in Ireland and we'd 494 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: done a couple of concerts in London. He came to 495 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: see us in London, so he offered us a record deal. 496 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 2: So we we had our first international record deal in 497 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 2: nineteen late nineteen sixty seven early sixty eight with Transatlantic Records. 498 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 2: So we went to England to make our first album, 499 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: which was called the White Album because it was a 500 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: white sleeve on us. And we made about five or 501 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 2: six albums maybe even more for Transatlantic from nineteen sixty 502 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 2: seven through nineteen seventy three seventy four, and then the 503 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 2: band split up. 504 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: Okay, you're a guy who hasn't been one hundred miles 505 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: from home. You go to college at Dublin, you're kind 506 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: of in and out of college. Suddenly you're on TV 507 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: in America. That was a dream. What was it like 508 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: to suddenly be on TV and to be on the radio. 509 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 2: Well, you know, you know, as part of the beauty 510 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: and madness of being that age, you know, you go, 511 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 2: you take it for granted, you go, oh yeah, and 512 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 2: I mean I always I always had confidence in my 513 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: musical gift, and I call it the gifts because I 514 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: really mean that, you know, it's something you're given, and 515 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 2: but I never had confidence that it would get noticed. 516 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: I suppose that's that's part of the lone wolf mentality too. 517 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: So for the first time, the music that I felt 518 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 2: was really good, that I that I was making got 519 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 2: started to get noticed. So that was exciting, and I 520 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: was I was touring a lot all over the continent 521 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 2: with with with the Johnston Scandinavia, Germany, Holland, Belgium, France 522 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 2: and uh, you know, we just took a nurse tride. 523 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: I mean it was exciting. Of course it was siting, 524 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: but but I didn't think it was undeserved. 525 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: Okay, you're a young twenty something on the road. That's 526 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: a legendary situation. Are you partiking of the substances in 527 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: the offerings on the road. 528 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: Well, to a Modica, I'd have to say, I'm you know, 529 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: I'm an irishman, so I like my drink. And you know, 530 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 2: there was really nothing much going around Ireland at the 531 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 2: time except a bit of hash and grass, and the 532 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 2: whole coke thing didn't happen until mid seventies, and fortunately 533 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 2: I just was able to avoid that. I had no 534 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 2: interest in COCD and coke at all. Just made your 535 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: teeth tingle. You know, I totally uninterested in coke, So 536 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 2: I escaped all that. It was lovely, but you know, no, 537 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 2: I I was sort of, you know, modest in any 538 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 2: of my obsessions. And I never really got hung up 539 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 2: on Anathan, thankfully. 540 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: How about the group Bees? 541 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: You know an odd time sir, it's hard to resist. 542 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: You want to you want to stay with that? It 543 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: was hard to resist. 544 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure you're that age. Sure that's what you are, 545 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 2: you know. 546 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: And when do you start writing songs? 547 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: Well? I had the thing about the Johnston's was not 548 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 2: Joseph wanted them to be a contemporary act like the Seekers, uh, 549 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 2: whereas it was a very schizophrenic band. We were so schizophrenical. 550 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: We actually put out two albums on the one day. 551 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: One was a hardcore trad album Irish Trad, and the 552 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 2: other was an album an orchestral the arranged album of 553 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 2: cover songs of Jacques Brill, Gordon Lightfoot, Ian McCall, Leonard Cohen, 554 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:18,760 Speaker 2: Joni Mitchell. We had a hit single with Jonny Mitchell's 555 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 2: both sides now and in Ireland, and it got up 556 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: to the mid fifties in the States. And then suddenly 557 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 2: Electra Records remembered that one of their acts, Judy Collins, 558 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 2: happened to have a recording of the song on her album. 559 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 2: I think it was called Wildflowers. So they threw that 560 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 2: out and we tussled with her for about three or 561 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 2: four weeks, and eventually Judy Collins's version became the hit 562 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 2: in the States. So that was as close as we 563 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 2: came to having a hit single in America. But I 564 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 2: like to think that in some way I contributed, We 565 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 2: contributed to her success in that her record company wouldn't 566 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 2: even have remembered the song on her album if we 567 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 2: hadn't been tickling the charts. 568 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: So once again, when do you start writing songs? 569 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: Well, I'd been listening to Jerry Rafferty and Al Stewart, 570 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 2: people like that in London, and I tried to write 571 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 2: a few songs on In fact, they had written some 572 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 2: songs with the Johnson's in their last couple of albums. 573 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 2: There were some songs of mine in the early early 574 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 2: mid seventies. You know that one song in particularly called 575 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 2: Continental Trailways Bus, which probably was one of the standout 576 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 2: songs of my time writing there, but I never really 577 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: took it seriously until one day I was driving along 578 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 2: and I heard this song on the radio, which turned 579 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 2: out to be Baker Street, and I just totally freaked 580 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 2: pulled the car over the side of the road, stop 581 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 2: the engine and listened to this and I said, what 582 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: is this? And it was Shirry Raffany. I said, I 583 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 2: know Jerry Rafferty. He's on the same label as me, 584 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 2: and he's only a folks singer. How did he come 585 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,919 Speaker 2: up with this? And I was totally blown away by 586 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 2: the song? And then I got his album City to City, 587 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 2: which was just a stunning album, and I just said, 588 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 2: you know, hey, bye bye traditional music. I want to 589 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 2: see if I can write songs like this. So I 590 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 2: started to write songs in late seventy eight early seventy nine, 591 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 2: and by the end of seventy nine I had enough 592 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 2: songs to put together a band in Dublin and start touring. 593 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 2: And by the end of nineteen eighty I decided I 594 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: got a record deal and I did an album and 595 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 2: it came in early eighty one. The album is called 596 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,760 Speaker 2: hard station. 597 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: Let's go back. You're in the Johnstons. All of a sudden, 598 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: this Thingali enters the picture. You go to the US 599 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: to get a record deal. You're living on nothing. Tell 600 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:34,720 Speaker 1: us about that period. 601 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 2: Oh, that was a dark period in my life. You know, definitely, 602 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 2: I was very impressionable. I was in my very early twenties, 603 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 2: and you know, I kind of I suppose all the 604 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 2: thing I discovered about myself was that, you know, I 605 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 2: don't like change. I'd rather stick with something that's not 606 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: entirely one hundred percent rather than look for something else 607 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 2: in the dark. So that's why I probably stuck longer 608 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 2: in the band the Johnson's than I that than I 609 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 2: should have. So it was a very difficult time. I mean, 610 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 2: it's complicated because of things I'm not sure I want 611 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 2: to go into here, but uh, just it was the 612 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 2: worst time to be trying to get a record deal 613 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 2: in America because it was it was the time the 614 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,760 Speaker 2: first energy crisis hit hit the oil industry, and vinyl 615 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 2: became prohibitively expensive, and a lot of the American labels 616 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 2: were not only not signing new acts, but they were 617 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 2: dropping their own acts wholesale because of the cost of vinyl, 618 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 2: and so that was it was. We were on a 619 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 2: heightened and often looking for a record deal at that time. 620 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 2: Even though we did a private addition for Clive Davis 621 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 2: in his office. We did an acoustic audition for Clive 622 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 2: Davis and he said, I'll get back. 623 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 1: To you classic, But you're living as kind of fly 624 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: by night people in the US. You're running out on 625 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: hotel bills. Rent tell me about that. 626 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure I want to go into that 627 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 2: very deeply. I mean, it's not a period of my 628 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 2: life I'm very proud of. And I know the statute 629 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 2: of limitations has probably rung out. We'll probably leave it 630 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 2: at that. 631 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 1: Okay, But the guy who ends up being involved with 632 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 1: the woman in the act, you're accepting it face value. 633 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: At what point do you realize this guy's a liar 634 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: and a crook? 635 00:44:53,680 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 2: Well, I can't you. I cand of knew it. I 636 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 2: never really felt that. I never really felt happy with 637 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 2: him in the band, but at the time not Joseph, 638 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 2: the record company boss, was very excited with him and 639 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 2: wanted to see if he could turn this into songwriters 640 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 2: and have hits and stuff like that. So, like I said, 641 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 2: I just kind of went with the flow. And I mean, 642 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 2: you know, I put up with a lot more than 643 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 2: I should have, but you put up with an awful 644 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 2: lot of that age. You know, it seems to be 645 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 2: going okay, you know, and so let's not rock the boat. 646 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 2: That was a mistake. 647 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: During this window, you're back in Ireland and you meet 648 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: the woman who becomes your wife. Not only do you 649 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: meet her, she comes a couple of times to the US. 650 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 1: How'd you meet her? And what did she say about 651 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: your situation when she came to the US having an 652 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 1: outside view? 653 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 2: Well, we met at the funeral of a famous Irish 654 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 2: traditional musician called Willie Clancy down in the west of Ireland, 655 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 2: in County Claire, and I was back in Ireland for 656 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 2: Christmas and he died in January. So I went down 657 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 2: to the funeral with a lot of friends of mine 658 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: and we were having some fun later on after the 659 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 2: funeral in one of the local pubs when the Skill 660 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 2: arrives in from Dublin with another friend of hers. They 661 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 2: were also music fans and they had come down just 662 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 2: to you know, join in the gathering. So that's where 663 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 2: I first saw Mary, who went on to become my wife. 664 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 2: And still is. And I went back to the States 665 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 2: the end of January. She came over that summer. She 666 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 2: was still doing her Masters in Trinity in Dublin and 667 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 2: so she had to wait to finish her exams. And 668 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 2: she came over and we were living at the time 669 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 2: in Norwalk, Connecticut, and she immediately saw that this was 670 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 2: this was a MADS situation, and you know, I knew 671 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 2: it too, but she kind of really made my mind up. 672 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 2: And from then on we basically worked steadily to getting 673 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,920 Speaker 2: an exit. It was difficult because I had nowhere to go. 674 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 2: I had left the whole scene in Ireland. I had 675 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 2: nothing to step into again if I if I left 676 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 2: the Johnson's. To some extent, I was a little bit 677 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 2: embarrassed by all that. Didn't want to go back home 678 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,839 Speaker 2: with nothing. But eventually I got asked to join another 679 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 2: and which were big in Ireland at the time, called Planksty, 680 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 2: and that was my ticket out of hell. And I 681 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 2: found myself back in Ireland in nineteen seventy four again 682 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 2: in one of the top bands in the country. I mean, 683 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 2: how lucky? Is that? 684 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: Very lucky? So tell me about your tenure with Planksty. 685 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 2: Well, that was I mean that was part of a 686 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 2: whole decade of involvement in Irish traditional music, which was 687 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 2: you know, I put out an album with the colleague 688 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,240 Speaker 2: of mine, Andy Irvine, who was one of the members 689 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 2: of Planksty. Planksy didn't last that long. Planksty Mark three 690 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 2: I call it, which was what I joined, only lasted 691 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 2: for about a year and a half. And then I 692 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 2: kept playing with one of the members of that band 693 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,439 Speaker 2: and the Irvine. We made this album in the late 694 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 2: seventies which went on to become a kind of a 695 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 2: folk classic, which which was really the album that introduced 696 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 2: my music to Dylan because he heard that album. He 697 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 2: was friendly with Happy Troum, Happy and Artie Trum, with 698 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 2: these brothers who were contemporaneous with Dylan in the village 699 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 2: in the early sixties, and Dylan would call in Unhappy 700 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 2: Troum on his way up to Woodstock every so often 701 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 2: and say, what are you listening to now? And Happy 702 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 2: had just got this album by Andy and me, so 703 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 2: he gave it to Dylan, and so that's how I 704 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 2: came to Bob Dylan's notice, and so that album became 705 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 2: a classic, and then I did an album of my 706 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 2: own in the late seventies, which sort of became a 707 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 2: classic too, in the sense that it won the Melody 708 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 2: Maker Folk Album of the Year nineteen seventy eight, and 709 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 2: the melody Maker was probably with the New Musical Express, 710 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 2: the two leading British music papers at the time, so 711 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 2: that was a big coup. And so you know, that 712 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,160 Speaker 2: whole type of music interested me hugely, still does and 713 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 2: kept being going through the seventies. But by seventy nine, 714 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 2: as I said earlier, I kind of felt that I 715 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 2: spent enough time doing that and I wanted to see 716 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 2: what else I had going on inside me, and I 717 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:22,840 Speaker 2: wanted to become a songwriter. 718 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: Okay, you meet an agent who's a turning point in 719 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: your career, tell us about that. 720 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,040 Speaker 2: I mean a book an agent. Yeah, yeah, Well I 721 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:39,360 Speaker 2: met with Paul Charles, who at the time was I 722 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 2: think he was at a festival. I met him and 723 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,879 Speaker 2: he was the agent for Lloyd and Wainwright at the time, 724 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 2: and he caught me on stage and I was at 725 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,399 Speaker 2: the height of my fame in Ireland at the time, 726 00:50:54,200 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 2: just crossing over from folk into rock, and so he 727 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 2: made an offer to become my book an agent, and 728 00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 2: he was based in London, and I mean he was 729 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 2: book an agent for lots of huge acts, you know, 730 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 2: like Crosby, Stills and Nash, Tom Waits, a lot of 731 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 2: the acts that came in from America. He was the 732 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 2: agent for us. So look, it was a very prestigious 733 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,160 Speaker 2: agency to be with. And he started to book me 734 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:37,240 Speaker 2: in the UK and through Europe and I it lasted 735 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 2: for I don't know, fifteen years, a very good relationship 736 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful for him. He largely contributed to 737 00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 2: a lot of whatever success I garnered and still have 738 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 2: it this day now. 739 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 1: He wanted to be the manager too. 740 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that didn't feel right to me 741 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 2: because you know, as I say, it's the manager's job 742 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,759 Speaker 2: to beat up the agent, you know, and so there 743 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,480 Speaker 2: was a clear cut conflict of interests there. But you know, 744 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 2: I mean he he stepped aside when when when another 745 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 2: management option came to the fore, which was dire strates 746 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:29,919 Speaker 2: management company called Damage Management, and they they they took 747 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,400 Speaker 2: over the management and you know that worked fine, and 748 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 2: I was with them for another five years. 749 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: Okay, but Ed mcnell ran the agency. But you were 750 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,960 Speaker 1: with Paul Cummins, who was more of a tour manager 751 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: for Dire Straits. Do I have it right? 752 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, at the time he became my manager, he 753 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:58,440 Speaker 2: was tour manager for Dire Straits. But he wanted he 754 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 2: wanted something for He wanted an act for himself, you know, 755 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,399 Speaker 2: as well as Dire Straits. He wanted his own little thing, 756 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 2: you know, so he he offered to manage me. And 757 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 2: like he mean, obviously he liked my first album and 758 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:21,200 Speaker 2: he fell in love with a lot of the songs, 759 00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 2: and you know, we got on very well. And and 760 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,920 Speaker 2: so we we sat out on a road of artists 761 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 2: and manager. Yeah. 762 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,920 Speaker 1: And what was the goal then, because at the time 763 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,359 Speaker 1: his biggest Dire Straits was in the US. People don't 764 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,400 Speaker 1: realize they were the biggest band in the world at 765 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: that time. They were playing stadiums in the rest of 766 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: the world when they were not that big yet in 767 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,959 Speaker 1: the US. But what was the play you know, would 768 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 1: they say, we're going to turn you into the new 769 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: Jerry Rafferty. What was the goal here? 770 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 2: I mean the goal was vaguely get as successful as 771 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 2: you can have hit records. You know, the record company 772 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,520 Speaker 2: wanted me to have hits. I was you know, I toured, 773 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 2: I opened for Dire Straits and one of their biggest 774 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,360 Speaker 2: ever European tours. As a solo act acoustic guitar, I 775 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,439 Speaker 2: walked out on stage in front the twenty thousand people 776 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 2: every night in nineteen eighty three, and so that kind 777 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:21,440 Speaker 2: of blooded me, so to speak. Nothing nothing phased me 778 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 2: after that. Once you stood on the stage in Italy 779 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 2: with an audience of twenty thousand people who, let's face it, 780 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,680 Speaker 2: are only there to look at themselves, you know, and 781 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 2: you get away with it, and you get a few 782 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,200 Speaker 2: people going, hey, hey, hey, you know you're not afraid 783 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 2: of anything. 784 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,440 Speaker 1: Opening you open for Dire Strait, You opened for Eric Clapton. 785 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,000 Speaker 1: Are you making fans or are you just getting paid? 786 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,640 Speaker 2: Well, I'm making fans, yes, I mean people came to 787 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,359 Speaker 2: my gigs, my own gigs ten years later who said 788 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 2: to me, like, you know, the first time I ever 789 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 2: saw you was when you open for Eric Clapton, you know, 790 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 2: and so you're always reaching people, you know, And but 791 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 2: you know, at the time, I never expected anything, you know. 792 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I just wanted to write music and make 793 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,319 Speaker 2: records and sing and have fun with the band and 794 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:26,200 Speaker 2: make some money. Yeah, but I never really thought long 795 00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 2: and hard about global fame or success. Didn't really didn't 796 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,280 Speaker 2: really think of it was going to happen. 797 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: Okay, going back a little bit in Ireland there are 798 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: some successful acts. Van Morrison has them and then goes solo. 799 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,719 Speaker 1: There's Thin Lizzy. To what degree are you aware of 800 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 1: that is a fraternity or is everybody separate? And you 801 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,719 Speaker 1: just have a worldview that's just another hit actor. He said, Oh, 802 00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,480 Speaker 1: that's the Irish. They can do it. 803 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 2: I can do it. 804 00:55:58,080 --> 00:55:58,120 Speaker 1: That. 805 00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 2: It was a bit of both, you know. I mean 806 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:07,400 Speaker 2: we weren't you know, we weren't exactly buddies. Although I 807 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,960 Speaker 2: did get a nice postcard from Switzerland from Rory Gallaher 808 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,919 Speaker 2: saying how much he loved my first album, which was nice. 809 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:19,520 Speaker 2: Came out of the blue. You know. Yeah, I loved 810 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:27,480 Speaker 2: Van Morrison, I loved Rory Gallaher, loved Finn Lizzie, Phil Lennett, 811 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:35,319 Speaker 2: all those man's great players. And you know I was 812 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:36,920 Speaker 2: just doing my thing. They were doing theirs. 813 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:43,160 Speaker 1: Okay, now there's a breakthrough for you. When Ed from 814 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:50,200 Speaker 1: Damage Management meets with Tina Turner's new manager and suggests 815 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:55,280 Speaker 1: steel Claw, tell us that story. 816 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,279 Speaker 2: Well, I had to recall I had written a song 817 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 2: called steel Claw about the underbelly of of of early 818 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:08,560 Speaker 2: eighties Dublin. Uh and uh it was on my album, 819 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:16,200 Speaker 2: my second album, and uh, I had well Ed McNall was, 820 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 2: who was the supremo in in damage management my managed company, 821 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,919 Speaker 2: went to dinner one night with Roger Davies. Roger said, 822 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:31,080 Speaker 2: you know, he Roger had first got a song from 823 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,320 Speaker 2: Mark Knopfler called Private Dancer, which went on to become 824 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,960 Speaker 2: the title of of I Think our comeback album and 825 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 2: certainly one of the biggest hits on it. 826 00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:44,120 Speaker 1: Uh. 827 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 2: And so Roger Davis said that Ed, you know, have 828 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,320 Speaker 2: you got any other acts that have songs? So Ed 829 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 2: happened to like the song steel Claw on my album. 830 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,600 Speaker 2: He gave he gave a tape of it to Roger, 831 00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,200 Speaker 2: and Roger played it for Tina, and Tina loved it. 832 00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,680 Speaker 2: And they got back and said, look, yeah, Tina loves 833 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 2: the song. It's really all right up the street. She'd 834 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 2: like to change a word or two here, She'd like 835 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,640 Speaker 2: to make it about San Francisco instead of Dublin. Is 836 00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:14,920 Speaker 2: that okay? And I say, you know yeah? And so 837 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,320 Speaker 2: she recorded the song and I got a copy of 838 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,280 Speaker 2: a tape of her recording, and I thought it was great, 839 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 2: and I was a huge fan obviously, as I told 840 00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,880 Speaker 2: you earlier, I'd been singing covers of I Can Tina 841 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,760 Speaker 2: Turner songs, you know, in my early teens in Dublin 842 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,520 Speaker 2: and the first band was and so I was a 843 00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,120 Speaker 2: huge fan of Tina Turner's and it was a huge 844 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 2: honor to get her singing your song. But then two 845 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,280 Speaker 2: weeks later I got a message from management saying, oh, 846 00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 2: Roger has decided to bin the whole album. He feels 847 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:56,560 Speaker 2: that stylistically the production is too dated, and he's just 848 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,160 Speaker 2: decided that he wants Tina to start again and record 849 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:04,920 Speaker 2: a whole new album. So that that was very disappointing 850 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 2: for me, you know, and here was my big chance 851 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,560 Speaker 2: of getting the cut down a Steena Turner album, and 852 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:16,919 Speaker 2: it's wrestled out of my grasp. But then about six 853 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 2: months later, to my surprise, I got another phone call saying, 854 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,200 Speaker 2: you know, Paul, Tina's just recorded a whole other album 855 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,760 Speaker 2: and she's been all the songs from the first album 856 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,520 Speaker 2: except one, and guess what that one is? Nice to 857 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,320 Speaker 2: tell me and he said it's steel Claw, your song, 858 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,680 Speaker 2: and I said wow. So that was lucky, very very 859 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:47,360 Speaker 2: lucky and the song landed up on Tina's Private Dancer album, 860 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:53,160 Speaker 2: which went on on to sell Squilliams and was my 861 00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,439 Speaker 2: first a major hit as a songwriter, and that helps. 862 00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 2: Before that, like with Carlos Santana, had recorded a song 863 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,880 Speaker 2: of mine, you know, but this was like serious, a 864 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,000 Speaker 2: serious hit at a time when there was serious money 865 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 2: to be made in publishing in the record business. So 866 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,880 Speaker 2: you know, somebody was looking after me at the time. 867 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,440 Speaker 1: Did you own the publishing. 868 01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,120 Speaker 2: No, I know, I had a publishing deal where you know, 869 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,320 Speaker 2: the publisher had to split and I had a split, 870 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 2: you know, But but I mean I the song was mine, 871 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,560 Speaker 2: and you know when the publishing deal was so the 872 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,680 Speaker 2: song was mine again, you know. So yeah, very fortunate. 873 01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,640 Speaker 1: You mean, I remember Carter blowing smoke up my ass. 874 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,200 Speaker 1: So I got a new Tina Turner album. No one 875 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:47,680 Speaker 1: expected that album to be successful other than him. All 876 01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,360 Speaker 1: of a sudden, what's it like when it becomes mega successful? 877 01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,640 Speaker 1: It's your song. You can see the money waiting down. 878 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,120 Speaker 1: That must have been an amazing experience. It's not like 879 01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, having you know, someone color record who's white hot. 880 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,560 Speaker 2: At that time, Yeah, it was like the biggest thing 881 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,400 Speaker 2: that ever happened to me career wise at the time, 882 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:14,120 Speaker 2: and it was only the beginning, because she recorded another 883 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 2: song of my on her follow up album, Break Every Rule, 884 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,000 Speaker 2: this time produced by Mark Knopfler, who was very good 885 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:26,040 Speaker 2: to me. And so it went on from there, and 886 01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:31,680 Speaker 2: suddenly I started to become known as a songwriter who 887 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:37,120 Speaker 2: wrote songs that you know, had a depth to them 888 01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:42,480 Speaker 2: and had a chance also of commercial success. So a 889 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:47,360 Speaker 2: lot of people started the cover songs, and I suppose 890 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:49,880 Speaker 2: the last time I counted, I suppose I've had about 891 01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,840 Speaker 2: one hundred and ten covers since I started writing songs, 892 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,640 Speaker 2: So that helped a lot. 893 01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: Before we move on the second song, Tina cuts his 894 01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,000 Speaker 1: Paradise is Here. I love that song. How did you 895 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:07,200 Speaker 1: come up with that song? 896 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:16,120 Speaker 2: Well, I was written a mystic called Christiana Murdy at 897 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 2: the time and a book called as far as I remember, 898 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:32,480 Speaker 2: Beyond Violence, and yeah, there was a there was a 899 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:38,560 Speaker 2: concept in it which appealed to me where he just 900 01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,840 Speaker 2: he was discussing, you know, how people live in the 901 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,960 Speaker 2: future and then the present, and the idea was there's 902 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,600 Speaker 2: no such thing as the future. This moment right now 903 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,200 Speaker 2: is actually the first moment of the future, so therefore 904 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,680 Speaker 2: the present it's the only thing that matters, and if 905 01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,160 Speaker 2: you have to live, you have to live right in 906 01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:02,400 Speaker 2: the present. And that had a big impact on me, 907 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:07,760 Speaker 2: you know, psychically and spiritually at the time. And I 908 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,880 Speaker 2: was going through a lot of an age where I was, 909 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,160 Speaker 2: you know, trying to figure out a lot of stuff 910 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,320 Speaker 2: for myself about you know, what I was, what I felt, 911 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,400 Speaker 2: you know, and this made a lot of sense to me, 912 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,480 Speaker 2: you know, to not be living in the future all 913 01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,360 Speaker 2: the time, and it just it made sense to try 914 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:33,120 Speaker 2: and dream up a situation or a relationship situation where 915 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,080 Speaker 2: one of the partners was living in the future all 916 01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:40,040 Speaker 2: the time and the other wanted to, you know, get 917 01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:43,960 Speaker 2: it together right now. And that's was the initial inspiration 918 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,680 Speaker 2: for the song, I suppose, I mean, I was expressing 919 01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,640 Speaker 2: my feminine side at the time, because the song, really 920 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:56,600 Speaker 2: it's probably best as a woman's song, and Tina, you know, 921 01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:02,200 Speaker 2: made that obvious when she sang it. I mean, because 922 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,880 Speaker 2: more often than not, it's the man who's living in 923 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:09,120 Speaker 2: the future and the woman who wants him to live 924 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,920 Speaker 2: in the present. So I must have been expressing my 925 01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:14,800 Speaker 2: female side when I wrote that song. 926 01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:27,080 Speaker 1: Okay, then you make a record with Gary Katz, who 927 01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,760 Speaker 1: was famous, started with Jay and the Americans, was friends 928 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,360 Speaker 1: with them, The Maids, all these records with Steely Dan. 929 01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:35,680 Speaker 1: How do you get hooked up with Gary Katz? 930 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,120 Speaker 2: One of my colleagues in the record company I was 931 01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 2: with at the time in the UK was very friendly 932 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,920 Speaker 2: with Gary Katz, and you know, they were buddies. And 933 01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:56,280 Speaker 2: this guy from the company liked my album, the previous album, 934 01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,640 Speaker 2: and he said, why don't you send some of your 935 01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,440 Speaker 2: demos to Gary. So I had a whole bunch of 936 01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,800 Speaker 2: songs written, which eventually became the album Trick or Treat, 937 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:07,880 Speaker 2: and I sent them off to Gary Katz and he 938 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,640 Speaker 2: loved them and he said, let's do a record. I'll 939 01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,160 Speaker 2: come out here and do it, and let's do it 940 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:17,840 Speaker 2: in the LA. And so I suddenly found myself in 941 01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:22,520 Speaker 2: LA making a record with Gary Katz's producer, and with 942 01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,840 Speaker 2: Jeff Porcaro and drums, and David Pitch on keyboards, and 943 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:30,200 Speaker 2: Jimmy Johnson and Freddie Washington playing bass on different tracks, 944 01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:35,800 Speaker 2: and Mike Landau playing guitar. You know, I'm going ahead, 945 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,720 Speaker 2: this happen, you know, And but they all love the songs, 946 01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,640 Speaker 2: and you know me because I mean, at the time, 947 01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,480 Speaker 2: I was writing in a whole variety of styles of songs. 948 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:49,040 Speaker 2: I was writing in pop style and blues style, and 949 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,520 Speaker 2: rock style and country style and funk style. I mean, 950 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,680 Speaker 2: I was I was sort of thrown everything at the wall, 951 01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,480 Speaker 2: just just for the for fun to see, to see 952 01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,560 Speaker 2: if it would stick. And all the guys in the 953 01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,720 Speaker 2: band love loved the songs, and we had a great 954 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,880 Speaker 2: time making the record, and we eventually ended up in 955 01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:15,320 Speaker 2: Bearsville over in New York, which stock and then finished 956 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:20,680 Speaker 2: the album in the Hits Factory in New York. This 957 01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 2: would have been nineteen nineteen eighty nine to ninety. Yeah, 958 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:33,520 Speaker 2: And so the album came out and it got a 959 01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,040 Speaker 2: lot of notice, but you know, it didn't set the 960 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,240 Speaker 2: world alight, but got a lot of nice attention. 961 01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,040 Speaker 1: So what was your experience, because there was a lot 962 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:46,600 Speaker 1: of money involved and it sounded very contemporary as opposed 963 01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,280 Speaker 1: to some of your other projects, which were made with 964 01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,840 Speaker 1: lower budgets and were more singular in terms of style. 965 01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,040 Speaker 1: Did you feel like you'd lost control or you said, no, 966 01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:57,760 Speaker 1: I'm riding this train, this is good. 967 01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,720 Speaker 2: No, I love I loved, I mean, I mean, I 968 01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,360 Speaker 2: thought stylistically very much at home in Trick or Treet. 969 01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:09,800 Speaker 2: You know, there was nothing that was being voisted on 970 01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:14,080 Speaker 2: me that I didn't love, you know, And in fact, 971 01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:19,280 Speaker 2: I was probably golding them on, you know, and I 972 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:23,040 Speaker 2: loved it, you know, because I'm a huge tally Dan fan. 973 01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:28,480 Speaker 2: I always was, and I loved that kind of music. 974 01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:33,520 Speaker 2: And I was just felt so excited that that the songs, 975 01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:38,400 Speaker 2: the vehicles that I gave them were inspiring enough to 976 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,320 Speaker 2: them to play the beautiful music they did, you know. 977 01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:42,720 Speaker 2: I mean they played some beautiful music on that album, 978 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:44,680 Speaker 2: absolutely gorgeous music. 979 01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:49,200 Speaker 1: There's a song on there called Can't Stop Wanting You? 980 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,000 Speaker 1: How words on a summer night, you and me having 981 01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,120 Speaker 1: a fight one drink at all can't come out before 982 01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,120 Speaker 1: I knew what we were fighting about. And then you 983 01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,560 Speaker 1: talk about the guy. Tell me about the backstory of 984 01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:02,040 Speaker 1: this song. 985 01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,920 Speaker 2: I guess, just a row, you know, I mean you 986 01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:16,200 Speaker 2: watch people, you know, it's a row you had with 987 01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:20,920 Speaker 2: your missus, you know, at the time, and because you had, 988 01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:33,720 Speaker 2: I suppose different points a view on certain subjects. Oh, 989 01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:36,280 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't like to paraphrase songs on mine, 990 01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:37,720 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? A song is a very 991 01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:42,360 Speaker 2: subtle thing, and I think to explain it is kind 992 01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:46,040 Speaker 2: of neutralizes it and takes the mystery out of it. 993 01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,559 Speaker 2: So I'll let you guess what it's about. 994 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So you make this album, it's called Trick or Treat, 995 01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 1: you do a duet with Bonnie Ate, which it becomes 996 01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:00,240 Speaker 1: the title song. Was that song already written and were 997 01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,200 Speaker 1: you planning not to do it as a duet just yourself? 998 01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:06,519 Speaker 2: Ah? Yeah, I had. I had that song written probably 999 01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:10,800 Speaker 2: two years before, and and in fact, i'd sent it 1000 01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:14,320 Speaker 2: to Bunny because she's asked me how to any songs, 1001 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,600 Speaker 2: and I sent it to her with a few to 1002 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:26,000 Speaker 2: perhaps her cotting it, you know, But she came down 1003 01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:33,400 Speaker 2: to studio and it, you know, it just seemed natural. 1004 01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:39,000 Speaker 2: She just suggested singing ana verse and it worked out perfect. 1005 01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:44,960 Speaker 2: And I just love that Jewett. I just I think 1006 01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,200 Speaker 2: the song is perfect for the duet, and I just 1007 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,559 Speaker 2: love the way she takes off and makes it her 1008 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,760 Speaker 2: own in a song that I felt I pretty much 1009 01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:57,240 Speaker 2: made my own, you know too. So there were two 1010 01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:01,600 Speaker 2: very strong colors in that and that recording, and I 1011 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:02,280 Speaker 2: always liked that. 1012 01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:07,240 Speaker 1: Okay, But how do you meet Balie reid. 1013 01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,639 Speaker 2: Well it was through her best player, hug Hutchinson, who 1014 01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:18,040 Speaker 2: was he liked to call himself hibern new Field, which 1015 01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:23,680 Speaker 2: is someone who likes things Irish from the Latin for Ireland, Hibernia. 1016 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:29,120 Speaker 2: And he was always interested in Irish trad music. He 1017 01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:30,920 Speaker 2: was very much aware of what I was doing in 1018 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:34,640 Speaker 2: the seventies as a trad act, and he loved he 1019 01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:41,040 Speaker 2: always loved Irish music. And a mutual friend of ours, 1020 01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:47,560 Speaker 2: Tomorrow O'Connell, an Irish singer who now lives in Nashville, 1021 01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:55,360 Speaker 2: told hutch that I was coming to la and hutch said, 1022 01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,519 Speaker 2: I'd love to meet him, So so I called him 1023 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,960 Speaker 2: up and we met, and he invited me down to 1024 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,080 Speaker 2: a concert that Bunnie was doing with Jackson Brown and 1025 01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,640 Speaker 2: the Santa Monic Pacific Auditorium. It was a benefit for 1026 01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,760 Speaker 2: something or Older, which a lot of Bonnie's concerts are, 1027 01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:18,639 Speaker 2: and he took me back stays afterwards, and that's where 1028 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:23,120 Speaker 2: I met Bunnie. And at the same time, she was 1029 01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,639 Speaker 2: standing with Meryl streep So, I'm going here is Bunny 1030 01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:29,320 Speaker 2: rid him marriage streep Hey. 1031 01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,000 Speaker 1: So when you met her at the Santa Monica Civic, 1032 01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:35,240 Speaker 1: did she already know who you were, had you already 1033 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:35,960 Speaker 1: sent the song? 1034 01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 2: Well, she My memory is playing tricks on me here now. Ah. 1035 01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,240 Speaker 2: I can't quite recall whether she had heard not the 1036 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,479 Speaker 2: only one before that or not, and whether this was 1037 01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:58,599 Speaker 2: just the first time we'd met. If I'd known you're 1038 01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:00,800 Speaker 2: going to ask me this question, I would probably thought 1039 01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:03,960 Speaker 2: harder about it. But I can't quite remember the sequence 1040 01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,160 Speaker 2: of events. Okay, as I say, said, you can't walk 1041 01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:07,720 Speaker 2: on to it. 1042 01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:10,400 Speaker 1: How did she end up coming to the studio. 1043 01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:15,240 Speaker 2: Well, you know that happened after the meeting at the 1044 01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,640 Speaker 2: backstage in the Civic auditorium. I asked her, when you 1045 01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,680 Speaker 2: come down and listen to stuff, you know? And she 1046 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:28,040 Speaker 2: was very happy to come down and did it. And 1047 01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:32,160 Speaker 2: then she said, have you any songs yourself for me? 1048 01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,120 Speaker 2: And I had just written the night before a song 1049 01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:41,719 Speaker 2: called the Look of the Draw, and I still hadn't 1050 01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:44,000 Speaker 2: even done a tape of it myself. I just had 1051 01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:47,200 Speaker 2: it in my head. So I sang it for her 1052 01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:52,400 Speaker 2: on acoustic guitar in the studio and she just said, wow, 1053 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:56,000 Speaker 2: that song that sounds like an album title. She said, 1054 01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,559 Speaker 2: Love of the Draw, And she took the song and 1055 01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:04,840 Speaker 2: record and call the album afterwards, and there you go 1056 01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:06,960 Speaker 2: another but a magic that happened to me. 1057 01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,960 Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, she was the one who 1058 01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:12,080 Speaker 1: suggested she sing on Trick or Treat. 1059 01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:16,520 Speaker 2: You didn't ask her, I can't recall, Okay. 1060 01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,160 Speaker 1: So then she puts out Look of the Draw which 1061 01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:23,439 Speaker 1: is even better than the breakthrough Nick of Time. You 1062 01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,000 Speaker 1: have those two songs on it not the only one 1063 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:27,960 Speaker 1: in Luck of the Draw on it's the title song. 1064 01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 1: How does that feel? And how do you feel any 1065 01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,360 Speaker 1: changes now that you have all this success as a songwriter. 1066 01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,120 Speaker 2: Well, I'm you know, I mean, obviously you know. I'm 1067 01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,240 Speaker 2: I'm a married man of two young children. I have 1068 01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:46,559 Speaker 2: a mortgage, and it's great to be making a living frankly, 1069 01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:56,720 Speaker 2: and I'm I'm enjoying playing live a lot. I'm not 1070 01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:00,760 Speaker 2: enjoying the record business, to have to say, I'm not 1071 01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:05,240 Speaker 2: enjoying the music business in terms of the records and 1072 01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,960 Speaker 2: radio and stuff like that. I'm finding a lot of 1073 01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 2: pressure on me to change the kind of music and Megan, 1074 01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:20,120 Speaker 2: and I'm finding a lot of pressure on me to 1075 01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:26,200 Speaker 2: reach the status that I don't feel as me and 1076 01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:30,560 Speaker 2: I don't feel comfortable with. So I started to experience 1077 01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:35,640 Speaker 2: a lot of stress within the record business. But but 1078 01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:41,400 Speaker 2: I still was writing songs all the time and enjoying 1079 01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:49,559 Speaker 2: recording them and enjoying covers very much so, but I 1080 01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:51,920 Speaker 2: was definitely going off the record business. 1081 01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,920 Speaker 1: So were you pitching your songs or were people finding you? 1082 01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,240 Speaker 1: Or was your manager publisher pitching your song? 1083 01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:10,200 Speaker 2: Finally enough, most of the vast majority of my covers 1084 01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,639 Speaker 2: of the songs that I already recorded, came from people 1085 01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:18,559 Speaker 2: hearing my records. My my reputation as a songwriter spread 1086 01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:23,720 Speaker 2: among the musical fraternity in a way you know that 1087 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:28,680 Speaker 2: was really organic and got me on a lot of 1088 01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:33,080 Speaker 2: interest and got a lot of covers for me. My 1089 01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:37,000 Speaker 2: publisher got a few covers, but frankly, not all that many, 1090 01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:43,200 Speaker 2: and most of it came from my own recordings. 1091 01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:45,559 Speaker 1: But you weren't the type who was sitting at home 1092 01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:48,120 Speaker 1: and saying, I have this song, this would be good 1093 01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,840 Speaker 1: for somebody. Let me feel how to connect to that guy. 1094 01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,000 Speaker 1: Let me send the song just hit to that person. 1095 01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:59,759 Speaker 2: No, I mean I I you know, I never promoted myself. 1096 01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,839 Speaker 2: I never pushed myself. I never. 1097 01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:06,479 Speaker 1: You know. 1098 01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,360 Speaker 2: I went to Nashville for a while in the early nineties, 1099 01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,720 Speaker 2: wrote about fifty songs there, and most of them are 1100 01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:16,439 Speaker 2: probably sitting in drawers ever since. You know, I just 1101 01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:21,519 Speaker 2: the whole songwriting factory thing just left, you know, it 1102 01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,519 Speaker 2: left me cold. I felt that I didn't want to 1103 01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:28,960 Speaker 2: write songs that way, and I just that it wasn't 1104 01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:33,800 Speaker 2: my thing. And I was, you know, I was quite comfortable. 1105 01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:38,280 Speaker 2: I was making a good living, and my reputation wasn't 1106 01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:43,160 Speaker 2: exactly hurting, all right. I wasn't world famous, and you know, 1107 01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:48,080 Speaker 2: my record company was thinking maybe they'd signed the wrong act, 1108 01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:55,120 Speaker 2: and you know, but I was, you know, I didn't 1109 01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:59,160 Speaker 2: feel natural trying to compete within the world of the 1110 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,040 Speaker 2: the top top hundred, you know, and feel comfortable doing that. 1111 01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:06,639 Speaker 1: You talk about writing Luck of the draw the night 1112 01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:10,559 Speaker 1: before Bonnie hears it. Do you write your songs on 1113 01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:13,840 Speaker 1: inspiration or do you cobble them together over time? 1114 01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:22,400 Speaker 2: Well, you know, most of my most of my earlier 1115 01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:29,120 Speaker 2: songs are total inspiration. And then you go to a 1116 01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,320 Speaker 2: period where you're fed up going down the mine and 1117 01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:34,040 Speaker 2: you start to look around you at other people and 1118 01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:36,200 Speaker 2: see what they're doing with their lives, and that inspires 1119 01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:40,120 Speaker 2: you then to write about other people, but in a 1120 01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:42,479 Speaker 2: way that makes it feel like it's coming from you, 1121 01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:49,840 Speaker 2: and then later on I enjoyed the whole business of 1122 01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:54,040 Speaker 2: co writing, because you know, you get this stage sometimes 1123 01:17:54,080 --> 01:18:02,920 Speaker 2: where you know you're fed up traveling through the depths 1124 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:04,920 Speaker 2: of the earth trying to come up with yet another 1125 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:07,840 Speaker 2: original idea, when you could be having fun writing with 1126 01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:13,560 Speaker 2: someone else. Whose who whose ideas you see? I I 1127 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,920 Speaker 2: as much fun making music as I do write in lyrics, 1128 01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:20,400 Speaker 2: and quite often I love somebody to send me a lyric. 1129 01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:25,960 Speaker 2: I mean, my latter records have been made up of 1130 01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,960 Speaker 2: a lot of co writes, which which I really enjoy. 1131 01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:33,320 Speaker 2: It shows a different side of myself musically, because when 1132 01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,880 Speaker 2: when you're writing all the song yourself, you kind of 1133 01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:44,200 Speaker 2: subconsciously limit yourself in some way. I can't explain it exactly, 1134 01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:46,599 Speaker 2: but when you're writing with someone else, there's no limits. 1135 01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:49,200 Speaker 2: And I wrote in styles with other people that I 1136 01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:51,760 Speaker 2: wouldn't let myself write and when I was writing a 1137 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:55,840 Speaker 2: song on my own. I mean a perfect example of 1138 01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:57,920 Speaker 2: that will be The Long Goodbye, which I wrote with 1139 01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,360 Speaker 2: Roland Keating. I mean that as a classic pop song, 1140 01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:03,479 Speaker 2: and I wrote most of the music in that song, 1141 01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,560 Speaker 2: so I could make that kind of music, but I 1142 01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:09,439 Speaker 2: wouldn't let myself make that kind of music if I 1143 01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:11,920 Speaker 2: was writing a song on my own, because I would 1144 01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:13,719 Speaker 2: have felt, oh, that's to poppy, Paul, and they won't 1145 01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:17,920 Speaker 2: buy that, you know, from you. And so I always 1146 01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:21,519 Speaker 2: had these conflicts about how close I wanted to go 1147 01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:26,400 Speaker 2: to pop music, and you know, I ended up going 1148 01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:28,439 Speaker 2: I just want to write what I want to write myself. 1149 01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:33,519 Speaker 1: You know, Okay. In the book you go on and 1150 01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:35,720 Speaker 1: on that when a record comes to the end, to 1151 01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:39,920 Speaker 1: the mixing stage, you tend to become very anxious and 1152 01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:43,160 Speaker 1: have a hard time letting go. You've made a lot 1153 01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:44,840 Speaker 1: of records, tell us about that. 1154 01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:49,640 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's not as bad now as it 1155 01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:51,280 Speaker 2: used to be because I have a lot more control. 1156 01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:53,320 Speaker 2: And when I make a record now, I make it myself, 1157 01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:58,439 Speaker 2: make it my own studio. I put it out when 1158 01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:01,960 Speaker 2: I want to put it out, you know, which, more 1159 01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:03,680 Speaker 2: often than that is probably the worst time to put 1160 01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:08,040 Speaker 2: it out. But I couldn't care anymore. I just want Nowadays, 1161 01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,800 Speaker 2: it's easier for me to make a record. But in 1162 01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:19,479 Speaker 2: the old days, yeah, in the old days, you'd you'd 1163 01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,800 Speaker 2: be in a studio for a limited amount of time, 1164 01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:26,600 Speaker 2: and you'd have these musicians. They are all expensive musicians, 1165 01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:30,479 Speaker 2: so you felt you had to, you know, you had 1166 01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:32,280 Speaker 2: to come up with something in a very short space 1167 01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:34,720 Speaker 2: of time. And quite often I found that very stressful. 1168 01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:43,640 Speaker 2: And those little pings kind of have just straight as 1169 01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:48,799 Speaker 2: those little pings kind of change my my. I forgot 1170 01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:49,920 Speaker 2: what we were talking about that. 1171 01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:51,919 Speaker 1: Well, as I say, you were talking about the records 1172 01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:54,800 Speaker 1: being mixed. Not happy, You want to react, you want 1173 01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:55,599 Speaker 1: to spend more time. 1174 01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, when you live, when you live with 1175 01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:04,040 Speaker 2: a record, you know, for as long as I would 1176 01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:05,880 Speaker 2: live with a record, you know, and when you know 1177 01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,200 Speaker 2: everything that's gone on in it, you know, you can 1178 01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,160 Speaker 2: hear the squeak on the bas drum pedal, you know, 1179 01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,080 Speaker 2: for God's sake, you've got all this stuff coming at 1180 01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:16,920 Speaker 2: you out of the speakers, and you know, it's very 1181 01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:21,400 Speaker 2: hard to finally just say all right, that mixes the one, 1182 01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:26,400 Speaker 2: you know. And I would always go definitely temporarily insane 1183 01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:28,920 Speaker 2: when I finished an album. And that's why, you know, 1184 01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:33,439 Speaker 2: I let other people mix my albums, because you know, 1185 01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:37,880 Speaker 2: you're too far inside something you can't really you can't 1186 01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:42,880 Speaker 2: really hear it anymore. And so it's a lot easier now, 1187 01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:45,160 Speaker 2: But in the old days, it was very hard, I 1188 01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:45,840 Speaker 2: have to say. 1189 01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:48,280 Speaker 1: So now you have your own studio, you're making the 1190 01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:51,160 Speaker 1: records yourself. Aid do you mix them yourself? And how 1191 01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:53,240 Speaker 1: do you decide when they're done today? When you have 1192 01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:54,040 Speaker 1: all the time. 1193 01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:58,160 Speaker 2: Well, I don't, you know, I don't mix them myself. No, 1194 01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:04,360 Speaker 2: And I think that's a very good thing. And if 1195 01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,960 Speaker 2: you you know, I work with the mixing engineer and 1196 01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:12,519 Speaker 2: we would mutually agree when it was finished at a 1197 01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:17,360 Speaker 2: pace that that is where there's total absence of pressure, 1198 01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:20,840 Speaker 2: you know, and you sleep on it, and you know, 1199 01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:22,120 Speaker 2: you sleep on the mix for a week and you 1200 01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:24,799 Speaker 2: listen to it again and you go, maybe just tweet 1201 01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:27,320 Speaker 2: tweak it out of EBITs, But other than that, you 1202 01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:30,320 Speaker 2: know you're happy with this? Then yeah, I mean I 1203 01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:31,719 Speaker 2: let things go an off a lot quicker. 1204 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:36,000 Speaker 1: And now, okay, we live in the internet era where 1205 01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:38,360 Speaker 1: anybody can make a track, put it up on a 1206 01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:42,880 Speaker 1: streaming service. The biggest acts in music history, most of 1207 01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:47,280 Speaker 1: them don't make new music, and those to be who do, 1208 01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:53,080 Speaker 1: the album can disappear in a day. So does this 1209 01:22:53,160 --> 01:23:00,640 Speaker 1: affect your mindset? Does this affect your motivation? Not remotely? Absolutely, 1210 01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:06,360 Speaker 1: not remotely. The things that that affect me. Are what's 1211 01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:09,800 Speaker 1: happening with my family right now, you know? And how 1212 01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:11,800 Speaker 1: often am I going to see them? I have a 1213 01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:15,599 Speaker 1: son that lives in New Zealand with three children there 1214 01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,840 Speaker 1: three grandchildren. I have a daughter that lives in the 1215 01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:24,240 Speaker 1: UK with two grandchildren. You know, I'm at a stage 1216 01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:25,439 Speaker 1: where family for me. 1217 01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:29,600 Speaker 2: Is you know, I'm not I'm drawing back to some 1218 01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:39,000 Speaker 2: extent from the from making music, and to me, family 1219 01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:42,439 Speaker 2: is a very important thing at the moment, and I 1220 01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,400 Speaker 2: don't manage to see half enough of them. We go 1221 01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:48,760 Speaker 2: out to New Zealand once a year to see my 1222 01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:56,160 Speaker 2: son and but it's a long way away. And yeah, 1223 01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:58,400 Speaker 2: we're going back again in January for three weeks. That'll 1224 01:23:58,439 --> 01:23:59,600 Speaker 2: be nice. 1225 01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,479 Speaker 1: How often do you work live now? And what does 1226 01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:03,839 Speaker 1: it take to get you out. 1227 01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:10,280 Speaker 2: Well? I mean I the first half of this year 1228 01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:12,000 Speaker 2: I worked quite a bit. I actually did three nights 1229 01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:15,320 Speaker 2: in New York in a new building called the Irish 1230 01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:21,320 Speaker 2: Arts Center, which is a small theater up on the 1231 01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:30,800 Speaker 2: upper west side Tenth Avenue up there, and and I 1232 01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:35,320 Speaker 2: played a lot in Ireland this year. But then in 1233 01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:39,160 Speaker 2: July I had some knee surgery which has in a 1234 01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:43,160 Speaker 2: way kept me off the boards for a while, and 1235 01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:48,360 Speaker 2: I won't really be going back live until early next year. 1236 01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:54,519 Speaker 2: I'm getting together with my band, I'm doing a series 1237 01:24:54,520 --> 01:25:00,800 Speaker 2: of dates in Ireland, and you know, I have no 1238 01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:05,160 Speaker 2: great desire, Bob, to tour America anymore. It's very difficult 1239 01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:13,080 Speaker 2: for an artist at my level. The United States government 1240 01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,200 Speaker 2: doesn't make it easy for people coming in. They take 1241 01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:18,519 Speaker 2: a huge amount of of of your growth and tax 1242 01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:22,839 Speaker 2: and it's it's difficult to I mean, I would probably 1243 01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:28,840 Speaker 2: make more money in a night in Ireland or the 1244 01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,759 Speaker 2: UK than I would make touring the stage for two weeks, 1245 01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:37,599 Speaker 2: you know what kind of way. And it's uh, I mean, 1246 01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:40,120 Speaker 2: I'm I'm getting on. I'm in my seventies, you know. 1247 01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:45,439 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm still having great time performing, but 1248 01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:51,360 Speaker 2: I've I'm not interested in world tours anymore. 1249 01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:54,360 Speaker 1: Not really, Are you going to die on stage or 1250 01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:57,840 Speaker 1: at one point you say I'm done. 1251 01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,639 Speaker 2: Oh, I'll keep going as long as I can keep going, 1252 01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:05,400 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, you know, I'm a singer and 1253 01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:10,080 Speaker 2: I throw ships. What else can I do? You know? 1254 01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:15,280 Speaker 2: I write songs. I keep going as long as my 1255 01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,240 Speaker 2: body stands up to it, you know. And I mean 1256 01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:20,400 Speaker 2: I'm not doing too bad. I'm in the mid seventies 1257 01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:26,920 Speaker 2: and I'm still, you know, having fun playing music. 1258 01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:29,559 Speaker 1: Are you scuba diving? 1259 01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, I haven't scuba dived since November of twenty two, 1260 01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:43,160 Speaker 2: and a lot that's largely between about COVID and stuff 1261 01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:46,840 Speaker 2: like that. But I swim three or four times a week, 1262 01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:50,479 Speaker 2: and I snorkel at the weekends, and I mean, and 1263 01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,080 Speaker 2: I'll be quite happy to go scuba diving again when 1264 01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,760 Speaker 2: we when when something turns up that seems attractive. 1265 01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:03,720 Speaker 1: And you referenced early you're about turning away from being 1266 01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:08,800 Speaker 1: an international rock star. And there's also in the book 1267 01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,479 Speaker 1: where you say you have an agent and the agent 1268 01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:16,040 Speaker 1: books you, and the promoter wants a restriction that you 1269 01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:18,880 Speaker 1: can't play other gigs in Ireland, and you say, I'm done, 1270 01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm firing the agent. I'm gonna do it differently now. 1271 01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:22,920 Speaker 1: Tell us about that. 1272 01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:30,320 Speaker 2: You know, that's just I mean, people have, you know, 1273 01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:34,320 Speaker 2: relationships that work for a certain period in your life 1274 01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:37,559 Speaker 2: and then they don't work, you know, and that's natural. 1275 01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:43,519 Speaker 2: It's just changed as I see it. It's partly that 1276 01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:50,599 Speaker 2: I just felt that that I was neglecting my fan 1277 01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:56,320 Speaker 2: base in my own country by only playing in it 1278 01:27:56,360 --> 01:28:01,360 Speaker 2: once or twice a year, and you know, according to 1279 01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:05,880 Speaker 2: a logic that that would make sense if you were 1280 01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:09,000 Speaker 2: an international act coming to Ireland, you know, and I 1281 01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,080 Speaker 2: just that didn't suit me any longer, and I felt 1282 01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:17,640 Speaker 2: I was I wanted to play my home country a 1283 01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:22,559 Speaker 2: lot more and That's what I'm doing and I'm having 1284 01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:23,160 Speaker 2: a lot of fun. 1285 01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:27,040 Speaker 1: So you're doing your own thing? Do you have still 1286 01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:30,639 Speaker 1: have a hunger? Well, I want to get another song covered. 1287 01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:33,000 Speaker 1: I still want to be part of the action. Or 1288 01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:34,840 Speaker 1: are you saying I'm just doing my own thing and 1289 01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:36,120 Speaker 1: I don't care about the rest? 1290 01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:41,080 Speaker 2: Well, the second, the latter. Really, I mean, I'm I'm 1291 01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:44,760 Speaker 2: not you know, I I don't want to break into 1292 01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:50,000 Speaker 2: new territories. I'm I'm. I'm very happy with the dynamic 1293 01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:56,120 Speaker 2: that that exists in my career at the moment. I'm 1294 01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:59,479 Speaker 2: happy enough. I'm comfortable enough. I'm I'm. I was very 1295 01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:06,360 Speaker 2: lucky in my career. So yeah, I'm I'm happy with 1296 01:29:06,439 --> 01:29:11,080 Speaker 2: where I am and you know, I will make another 1297 01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:12,320 Speaker 2: record when it seems right. 1298 01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:17,639 Speaker 1: Okay. For those people who aren't aware of you, you're 1299 01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:23,920 Speaker 1: an icon in Ireland and they've gotten many awards, titles, 1300 01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:28,680 Speaker 1: So let's say somebody says I want Paul Brady and 1301 01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:32,240 Speaker 1: you're unavailable, then do who do they call? 1302 01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:41,840 Speaker 2: Wow? Well, you see, that's a hard one to answer, 1303 01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:44,280 Speaker 2: because Paul, there are two or three Paul Brady's as 1304 01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:47,080 Speaker 2: far as Irish people are concerned. There's the there's the 1305 01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:50,480 Speaker 2: fella that sang Irish folk music throughout the whole seventies. 1306 01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:56,799 Speaker 2: There's the there's the fella that wrote the song Crazy 1307 01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:02,519 Speaker 2: Dreams and wrote the song Nobody Knows. And there's a 1308 01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:12,200 Speaker 2: fella you know that that you know plays live on stage. 1309 01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm a sort of an unusual article altogether. You know, 1310 01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:20,440 Speaker 2: there's that there are few. There aren't too many musicians 1311 01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:24,479 Speaker 2: who have covered as many musical basis as me, and 1312 01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:27,799 Speaker 2: and you know, made a little bit of an impact 1313 01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:31,880 Speaker 2: in each one of them. So if somebody was looking 1314 01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:34,640 Speaker 2: for me, it would depend on what to say to 1315 01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:37,800 Speaker 2: me they were looking for as to who they'd ask next. 1316 01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:42,040 Speaker 1: And in Ireland, if you're walking down the street, if 1317 01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:44,200 Speaker 1: you're going to dinner, are you recognized? 1318 01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:49,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all the time, but in a nice way. 1319 01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:54,599 Speaker 2: I'm never hassled, you know, it's nice. I just want 1320 01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:57,280 Speaker 2: to get to get my card tested. Today. You know, 1321 01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:00,639 Speaker 2: you know, you have a three year test for your 1322 01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:03,920 Speaker 2: car's roadworthiness. You know, right, it's called the National you know. 1323 01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:12,919 Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there waiting and it comes this call 1324 01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:17,360 Speaker 2: BMW and I look around. I says, yeah, ask me, 1325 01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:21,360 Speaker 2: and the guy says, Paul, really, I'm a big fan 1326 01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:23,960 Speaker 2: of yours. I'm coming to your shows next April. You passed, 1327 01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:27,479 Speaker 2: we'll leavenute that. Paul. 1328 01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:29,880 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for taking so much time 1329 01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:31,040 Speaker 1: talk to my audience. 1330 01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:36,840 Speaker 2: Can I just add the last thing here? There's no 1331 01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:40,360 Speaker 2: suggestion that the only reason I passed my car past 1332 01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:41,760 Speaker 2: was because he was a fan of mine. 1333 01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:44,680 Speaker 1: Well, well we'll be the judge of that. 1334 01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:49,000 Speaker 2: Bob. Great talking to you, man, and thank you for 1335 01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:52,400 Speaker 2: all your your nods in my direction over the years. 1336 01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:56,160 Speaker 1: Thank you absolutely, you're a real talent. Hopefully more people 1337 01:31:56,160 --> 01:32:00,400 Speaker 1: will connect the songs with the man after this. Until 1338 01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:03,040 Speaker 1: next time, This is Bob left six 1339 01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:25,240 Speaker 2: Sh