WEBVTT - Cool Rerun Part Two: The Jane Collective: Direct Action Abortion Access Works 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:06.640 Cool Zone Media. Hello and welcome to Cool People who 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.280 did Cool Stuff. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy. This is 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.840 a rerun episode. Everyone loves rerun episodes. Why is this 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.680 the rerun episode? Well, a couple reasons. One of them 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:19.960 is that some stuff happen this week. You might have 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.000 been there, you might have noticed. But the other reason 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.799 is that I'm on tour right now and I'm finally 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.760 headed back home, which means that I will be back 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.840 to being able to record in a more easy way 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:37.000 instead of recording intros in a rest area somewhere in 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.959 California in the morning. Is what I'm doing anyway, This 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.760 rerun episode is about the Jane Collective. You see, imagine 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.440 a time when abortion isn't legal in the United States. 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.919 It's probably easy for you to imagine if you live 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.960 in a lot of states right now, and yet most 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.320 people are okay with it, which we all saw at 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.120 the polls last week. What a bunch of people did 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.480 as they got together and they offered abortion services safely, 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.280 and developed new technology for them and did all kinds 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.520 of amazing things even though it was a crime. Because 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:17.000 sometimes resistance looks like protest, and sometimes it's just outright crime, 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.960 which we would never advocate, but we sure will talk 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.199 about some of the people who did it as cool 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:27.840 on this podcast. Hello and welcome to Cool People Who 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.520 Did Cool Stuff. It's a podcast. The title isn't sarcastic. 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.440 We actually talk about people we think are cool and 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.440 who did things but we also think are cool. And 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.760 you know who else is cool? Is my guest this 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.160 week Samantha McVay, who is the host of Stuff Mom 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.080 Never Told You and is not only my new best friend, 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.600 but dear listener, she is your new best friend as well. Yes, 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:50.680 how are you doing? 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.440 Pease? I'm doing so. See. This is the thing that 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.040 I've been trying to run with. This is how I 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.840 make friends by trying to tell them I'm cool. So 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.639 this is perfect going to be on the show about 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.120 when people would do cool stuff because I want to 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.000 be cool like that. That's how it works, right, and 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:07.200 then people want to get friends with me. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.200 Yeah, definitely. Okay, all right, that's what I'm relying on 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:10.520 as well. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.000 Okay, I'm gonna channel this. Let's go. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.440 Yeah. And we also have Sophie with us, who is 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.640 not only the producer of the show, but and the 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:25.120 coolest and it's also basically the Pope of podcasts. Yes, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.520 that's the podcasts. And much like the Pope, she decides 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:29.720 who lives and who dies. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.639 Yeah, yes, and much like the Pope directly like tells 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.000 us what's moral and what's not, even if we don't 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.160 believe her half the time. And I'm just kidding, I 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:37.880 always believe you. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:39.919 Yeah, and then we just act on whatever Sophie says 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.520 instead of actually listening to her. Sorry, we painted you 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:44.640 into a corner here, so let's move on. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:53.440 I too like fun hats. Yeah, it is true, it's true, 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.520 you do. Yeah, but you know it's not about me. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:57.400 Let's go, let's go. 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.080 Okay, Okay, So today we're doing part two of our 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.160 two part series on the Jaine Collective, who are a 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.519 badass crew of underground abortionists in pre Roe v. Wade, Chicago. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.560 And this episode will make approximately zero sense if you 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.960 don't go back and listen to part one. So go 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:19.120 listen to part one. We'll wait. Okay. So Jane offering 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.920 abortions no longer reliant on crime guy Nick Mike, but 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.799 are doing it themselves. Mike Nick, Yeah, Mike Nick. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.440 Sorry, And I'm just making sure we have both versions 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.680 in So, yeah, we are correct, but we did forget 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.119 the title sexy, so sexy Mike Nick Sexy Nick Mike. 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.920 Right right, totally, yeah, that is the title of the Yeah, 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.320 like obviously, yeah, okay, So so Jane is offering abortions 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.960 for every trimester and this is like really not how 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.520 to DIY in abortion podcast, although if those exist, you 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.400 should go listen to them, but this is not one 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:54.360 of them. And the techniques I'm going to be talking 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.360 about are like fifty years old and are transmitted through me, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.680 who is an absolute lay person, who who doesn't have 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.000 a uterus and is completely grossed up by the idea 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.880 of the inside of my own body. Like if I 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.200 go to a training about how to apply a tourniquet, 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.600 I what I do is I pretend like I'm not 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:16.960 there and then learn the information. So just keep all 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:17.440 of that in mind. 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.080 Seems like a good method of many things. Pretendly they're 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.120 not there and just learn. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:27.080 Yeah, exactly, but it it feels important to me to 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.279 understand some of the ways that people have historically and 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.880 can temporarily go about ending unwanted pregnancies. For some weird reason, 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.400 it just seems like really important right now. I'm it's 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:37.120 hard to say. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.080 Why HM as a person in Georgia with many laws 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:42.520 of floating, I don't either. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.200 Yeah, so it's so weird, just some in the air, 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:47.880 I don't know. And one thing I talked to when 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:49.279 I was talking through this show with one of my 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:55.000 friends who's a reproductive rights justice activist person all those 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.400 words in the proper order. One of the things that 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.040 they were pointing out is that it's important not to 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:01.800 present this dark age before Roe v. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:02.320 Wade. 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.360 Legal abortion access matters, and we need to defend that, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.880 but we need to like soberly recognize that people can 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.039 and have learned how to take care of not just 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.640 their own health, but like on a community level and 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:19.200 on a like a real level, so that people recognize 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.919 that they do have real options if we lose Roe v. Wade, right, 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.680 so that it's not like your only option is to 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.640 go to someone who's really sketchy, because we need to 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.040 instead fight to make sure that that doesn't become the case. 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.280 So when Jane started, they're mostly doing a style of 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:39.039 abortion called a dilation and curetage or a DNC, especially 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.600 for first trimester abortions, and what they do is they 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.400 injected a local anesthetic and then they scrape the walls 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.920 of the uterus with a loop shape instrument called a curet, 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.880 and they then provided pills and injections to stop infection 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.320 and bleeding. And they recommended a gynecologist or they recommend 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.560 it getting a gulogical checkup, and if you didn't have one, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:06:00.360 they recommended you one. And D and C, at least 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.640 as it was performed originally, is a fairly dangerous procedure. 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.960 It's not a bad procedure. It's important that people be 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.560 able to do this, but it's a It evolves sharp 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.920 objects and sensitive areas. And Jane was really fucking good 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.200 at it. But it seems like some of the worst 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.320 ways that inexperienced abortionists fuck patients up is with DNC, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.800 and especially also with herbal abortions, but we're not going 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.360 to get into that on the show, and Jane didn't 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.400 fuck with herbal abortions. To my knowledge, DNC is still 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.920 used today, although the term is a wider usage now, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.520 basically to include things other than a sharp curet. They 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:39.400 like suction curets, or a vacuum aspiration as it's sometimes called, 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:41.960 where they vacuum things out instead of scraping them out. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.920 But to tell you about vacuum aspiration, I get to 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.719 tell you about a bunch of other really cool people, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.760 some people who are let's go with people who are complicated, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.120 who did cool things for some of these people instead 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.279 of people who I want to blanketly tell you are cool. Right, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.880 Because Harvey Carmon was not an MD, some reports claim 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.680 that he is a psychology doctorate, so he was technically 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.200 a doctor. Others claimed that he just had a master's 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:09.240 degree in theater. 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.200 And vastly different. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.160 Yeah, it is, it is. He might have had both. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:14.840 He might have later gone back and got a doctor 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.760 a degree in psychology. I don't know. Okay, when he 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.560 was still a student, he was practicing abortion in California 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.440 and one of his patients died and he served two 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.240 and a half years in prison for it. And I 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.520 literally don't have a means by which to judge whether 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.680 or not he was a responsible practitioner who happened to 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.360 lose a patient due to the circumstances that he was 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:37.000 forced into by criminalization, or whether he was a sketchy, fucking, 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.000 shitty abortionist. I literally don't have a way to at 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:46.000 least my information gathering powers did not answer this. But 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.600 he was an innovator, and which really doesn't answer the 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.560 question of whether or not he was responsible or ethical, 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.440 because just because you want to try new shit doesn't 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:56.400 necessarily make it good. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:02.360 Right. It's kind of like when doctors were practicing curing 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.520 hysteria on women and we know what that led to, right, Totally. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.240 One time, when he's in jail for practicing abortions, he 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:14.640 invents a new abortion technique which has revolutionized first trimester 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.080 abortions and is like largely the reason as far as 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.600 I understand that we have, say, first trimester abortions. However, 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.440 when I say revolutionize and invented, you'll be shocked to 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.720 know that Chinese doctors figured it out a long time earlier, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.480 and that information was not transmitted to the West until 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.360 after a Western practitioner figured it out, which happens time 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.040 and time again. Every time you're like this guy invented 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.840 a thing, you're like, this guy invented for the Western world. 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:44.160 Or got credit for it. 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:50.880 Yeah, totally something. But he invented something called the Carmen canula, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.600 which is a flexible curet and it basically allows vacuum aspiration. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.360 It allows the idea of using in this case originally 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.520 a syringe to suck things out with a flexible tube 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.360 instead of using a sharp curet and it dramatically reduces 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.000 the risk of perforating the uterus, and it reduces the 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.960 need for anesthesia to relax the cervix. And it I 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.800 mean this just a fucking flexible tube as far as 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.080 I can tell. And it gets called vacuum aspiration, or 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:19.720 the non medical term, and I'm going to talk about 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.240 this in a little bit, is called menstrual extraction. The former, 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:24.959 as best as I understand it is like the medical 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.559 name and the latter as it's d medicalized name used 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.640 in different people by two women who immediately took upon 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.800 his concept and improved upon it. Carol Downer and Lori 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.400 Anne Rothman were two of the most important underground abortion 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.000 providers at the time. Yet they're rarely referred to as 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:45.120 that because what they did is they invented and again 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.200 I can't speak to everyone ever having done this before, 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:51.960 but they invented a menstrual extraction. They took the existing 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.839 vacuum aspiration and they added both a one way valve 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.720 in order to keep air from accidentally going into the uterus, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.640 and then also a jarged a mason jar that's attached 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.000 to it so that more rich material can be removed 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.600 at once. And so now you can do a full 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.599 menstrual extraction, which is basically the idea of like you 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.640 can pass all of your mensies all at once instead 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:19.079 of waiting for it to slowly pass. And what happens 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.840 when you do that is if you happen to be pregnant, 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.000 and if with a first trimester abortion, you are suddenly 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:30.240 no longer pregnant, Okay. And they didn't like advertise this 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:35.120 as an abortion technique because that would have been illegal. Instead, 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.880 they like were like, oh, groups of women could just 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.920 all get together and provide this service for each other. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.400 Because it actually takes multiple people to use this device. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.320 You can't necessarily self administer it just because of angles 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.920 and shit. I don't know, right, and I to be frank, 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:52.559 I had never heard of this, and about half of 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.520 the people I've talked to who have universes had heard 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.040 of this, and half of them hadn't. And I don't 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:57.559 know other. 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.720 Myself seeing them in person, like I obviously have seen 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.600 the pictures of them. As you describing me, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:05.000 I get it. 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:05.400 I get it. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:06.280 Yep, yep, yeah. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.839 Yeah, And it gets called. Their invention is called a 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.040 Dell M D E L space EM in case you 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:14.520 all want to go look up how to do this 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.520 kind of interesting thing. In nineteen seventy one, they invent 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.760 this thing, and then they downplay the abortion side of it. 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.319 But they go to the National Organization Conference of Women, 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.280 the NOW Conference in California in nineteen seventy one so 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.160 they can announce this invention to the world, and they 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:30.679 were like, hell, yeah, everyone's going to love this. But 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.560 instead the NOW organizers were like, this is a little 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.240 bit much for a booth. I don't think you can 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.520 have a booth for an abortion here. And they're like, what, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:41.920 it's revn structure right now, I'm putting words in their mouth. 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.040 And so they put up flyers saying, hey, come to 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.280 our hotel room and we'll show you how to use 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.079 this device. And everyone fucking loved it, right because it 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.000 fucking ruled. Yeah, And so they gathered this list of 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.839 names and they went on this greyhound tour across the 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.240 country giving presentations about the Dell M and I just 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.599 love how like scrappy it is. Is that they like 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.800 invent this thing that involves Mason Jars and they don't 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.520 have a car, so they just like again, I mean 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.920 maybe a car, but they go on a greyhound tour 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.400 that rules. And Lorraine has a quote from two thousand 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.600 and two that sums up the sort of de medicalization 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:17.080 approach that was popular with a lot of the underground 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.760 abortion access people before nineteen seventy three. What did women 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.199 do before there were doctors. Let's stop the humiliation of 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.920 trying to persuade the powers that be to legalize abortion. 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.199 Let's just take back the technology, the tools, the skills, 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.199 and the information to perform early abortions and be in 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.360 charge of our own reproduction. And once again, you'll be 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.319 shocked to know that this device is having something of 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:43.160 a comeback in the modern era. And so Jane didn't 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.800 use the del M specifically as far as I can tell, 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.079 but they did use the Carmen canula extensively, and I 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.600 think in generally in combination with vacuum aspiration. They also, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.240 and this gets into the sketchier side of some of it, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.559 they use Another one of Carmen's inventions that was a 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.319 lot less successful, something called the super coil. I'm actually 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.480 curious have you heard of this? I'm trying to figure 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:05.400 out how known this is. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.120 And I don't think so. But it's one of those 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.240 I'm like, as you describe it, I may know of it. 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.600 Because I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Yeah, 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:14.320 I'm trying to just be. 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.439 Like no, no, yeah, because I'm sitting here like, Okay, 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:22.000 We've gotten through several devices and I think I'm glazed though, 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:22.720 but yeah, keep. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.959 Going no, no, no, So the super coil is not 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.800 around today, okay, because it is a bad idea as 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.719 far as I can tell. It was meant to revolutionize 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.400 second trimester abortion. Basically, he was like, I have revolutionized 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.040 first trimester abortion and made it easier for lay people 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.959 to do it. Now I want to revolutionize second trimester abortion. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:44.280 And so the super coil involves coiling up like like 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.040 tightly coiled plastic rings basically attached to a string that 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.720 are inserted into the uterus and then left to expand 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.120 so that they could be pulled out and then clear 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.760 out the area as they you know, I did. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.760 Not know what this is. This is horrify though. Yeah, 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.880 I feel like I've had Sophie. Yeah, so my last 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.599 interaction with Robert when Sophie was them talking about a 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.000 birth control that attached itself and to our people's shooters. 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.520 So this is amazing. I feel like we come full circle. Yeah, 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.199 we definitely have come full circle. But that thing, that 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.680 thing on that episode with Robert was like one of 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.560 the It like makes me itchy. I'm like, it was 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.640 so terrifying. Yeah, I still see people post you. But yeah, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.680 we're back here to something that goes out, expands and 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.160 tries to pull things out of people's vaginas. So I'm like, okay, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:40.040 we're back, We're back. That's our thing, Samantha. I love 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.920 being associated with this. Let's keep going. This is amazing. 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.760 I mean I'm now like, yes, this is my world, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:46.280 let's go. 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.440 This is the This is the darkest chunk of this episode. 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.800 I believe even later they get arrested and it's not 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.120 as dark as this chunk. So they helped Carmen test it. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.840 They they sided with him in debates to come, and 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.880 they were probably about it. It was meant to help 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.680 lay people provide abortions. But it was probably too good 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.320 to be true. Basically like they were. At least one 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.520 person I read argued that basically they were like sucked 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:11.920 in by the idea of like, oh, we have a 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.160 numerical device. This rules because they had just gotten a 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.360 numerical device from the same guy. Not numerical but not numbers, 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:23.080 but miracle device that is new. So he goes and 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.800 tests it, and he first tests it through with International 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:31.160 planned parenthood on Bangladeshi women at a large scale, and 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.400 it I'm not aware of it killing anyone, but it 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.560 did not do incredibly well, and there were a lot 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:39.240 of complications. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.360 I will say it sounds like it could cause a 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.840 permanent damage, yes, which is kind of the horror stories 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.440 people tell that are anti choice about the permanent damage. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.760 And this seems to follow suit because I can't imagine 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.920 something just at that point in time being like, oh, 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.640 it's self working. It just expands and grabs the right things, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.360 doesn't what does it exactly? 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.560 And I've seen a couple different things about whether or 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.480 not Jane was involved in using this or testing this. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.880 I do believe they did use this successfully for a 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:16.040 number of abortions, and again, their overall results were that 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.640 they were as good as any medical facility at that time, right, right, right, 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.560 But anyway, this is a darker thing that they were 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:25.360 involved in, right. 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.560 I mean that makes me a question did they give 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.760 the people who came in, the patients and clients a 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.360 choice on what kind of procedure they could have? And 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.800 I know they were pretty good about giving like risk 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.840 statistics and let them know aftercare and all of that. 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.040 So I wonder if there was like a moment of like, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.360 you have these options, now, which would you like to do? 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.000 I would like to get off of them the benefit 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.720 of the doubt of that around that, But I don't know. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.280 And because I honestly did not know this part of 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.960 this history, I was like, oh, yeah, that's a little alarm. 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:01.880 You don't want to start testing things and when you 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:07.159 have someone testing on a different group of people, you 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.680 know is probably not good, which is the history of 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.520 all medicine essentially. But you know, that's a whole different 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.840 rabbit hole that I will not do as a negative, 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.439 neelly moment. So I'm gonna stop now. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:18.920 No, No, I mean like, and this is like, this 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:20.520 is the most warts and all that I'm going to 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.879 get around this and even this is like a complicated thing, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.520 you know. One of the things that I read, one 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.280 of the black women who volunteered for this was like 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.440 basically defended her position being like I'm paraphrasing, but like, 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.359 you're fucking kidding me. You're saying that I can't consent 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.280 to this just because I'm a black woman, you know. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.520 And so there's this like I'm reading biased reports, right, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.520 I'm reading people who are trying to make positions to 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.000 either claim that this was this terrible thing that people 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.359 did or this brilliant, brave thing that people did, And 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.000 I don't have anything near the right position to understand 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.520 what is and isn't ethical for what happened here, and 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.960 like level of informed consent was available, But I'm also 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.120 under the impression that a lot of their other options 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:07.320 were worse. 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.960 Right, I Mean, again, we come back to the fact 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.680 that there's so many things that pushes people to a 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.960 certain point, and when it's not accessible and becomes looked 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.680 at as again lawful unlawful, then people I push to 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.280 the point that is uh is extreme, So you do 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.399 what you can, and people being in that point, we 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.119 are going to choose what they think is lesser uh 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.119 able for them. Yeah, and it's not the case like 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.879 that's he shouldn't have to be even that conversation. 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.800 Yeah, totally. And and so as a Carmen, he kind 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.920 of disappears after this whole fiasco. He's like, I tried 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.240 to invent a thing and it didn't work, and he 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.879 kind of his trub was cold, at least from my 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.320 my slooping at this point. 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.040 It wasn't a medical doctor, right, you're saying that he's 0:18:55.320 --> 0:19:00.760 either gone maybe maybe in psychology, but also maybe theater. 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.959 Like you just right did a thing. However, as as 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.760 a different states would legalize abortion, he was so well 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.879 known that he would be invited to come participate in 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.080 legal abortion areas because he was a really experienced abortionist. 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.359 But that also empowered him to do all of these 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.760 things that are real messy, and so it's just like 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.800 kind of interesting that like this is the person who 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:31.080 did the thing that got say, first trimester abortions available, 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:35.440 you know, right, I mean some good did come of it, right, 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.320 and now we have chemical abortions for first trimester that 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.879 are safer and better than this method. As far as 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.159 I understand him, a circumstances, but I don't know. 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.879 There's so many things to this in this conversation about 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.840 what this looks like when it is not considered healthcare 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.919 and why it's so blase, and yes, some good did 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:55.600 come of it, but some bad to come of it, 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.680 and then there's this need of like understanding it is healthcare. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.880 Yeah, totally okay, but who is cool? Yes, I will 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.240 go on a I don't know limb to say is 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.399 another abortionist to popularize some shit that Jane wound up 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:14.359 using a guy named Robert Spencer. And Robert Spencer was 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.800 a true believer and he was not a grifter. He 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.760 was a doctor, an actual medical doctor, and the coal 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.359 fields in Ashland, Pennsylvania, and he cut his doctoring teeth 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.840 inventing new ways to treat black lung and coal miners, 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.440 including a lot of pioneering work. And I don't know 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.959 to pronounce this word bronchoscopy. Bronchios is ticking cameras down 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.520 people's throats, I don't know, looking at people's throats. And 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:37.960 he did experiment with black lung. But this is also 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:39.679