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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello and welcome to Cool People who

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Speaker 1: did Cool Stuff. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy. This is

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Speaker 1: a rerun episode. Everyone loves rerun episodes. Why is this

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Speaker 1: the rerun episode? Well, a couple reasons. One of them

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Speaker 1: is that some stuff happen this week. You might have

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Speaker 1: been there, you might have noticed. But the other reason

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Speaker 1: is that I'm on tour right now and I'm finally

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Speaker 1: headed back home, which means that I will be back

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Speaker 1: to being able to record in a more easy way

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Speaker 1: instead of recording intros in a rest area somewhere in

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Speaker 1: California in the morning. Is what I'm doing anyway, This

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Speaker 1: rerun episode is about the Jane Collective. You see, imagine

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Speaker 1: a time when abortion isn't legal in the United States.

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Speaker 1: It's probably easy for you to imagine if you live

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Speaker 1: in a lot of states right now, and yet most

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Speaker 1: people are okay with it, which we all saw at

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Speaker 1: the polls last week. What a bunch of people did

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Speaker 1: as they got together and they offered abortion services safely,

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Speaker 1: and developed new technology for them and did all kinds

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Speaker 1: of amazing things even though it was a crime. Because

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Speaker 1: sometimes resistance looks like protest, and sometimes it's just outright crime,

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Speaker 1: which we would never advocate, but we sure will talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the people who did it as cool

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Speaker 1: on this podcast. Hello and welcome to Cool People Who

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Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff. It's a podcast. The title isn't sarcastic.

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Speaker 1: We actually talk about people we think are cool and

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Speaker 1: who did things but we also think are cool. And

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Speaker 1: you know who else is cool? Is my guest this

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Speaker 1: week Samantha McVay, who is the host of Stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never Told You and is not only my new best friend,

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Speaker 1: but dear listener, she is your new best friend as well. Yes,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Pease? I'm doing so. See. This is the thing that

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Speaker 2: I've been trying to run with. This is how I

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Speaker 2: make friends by trying to tell them I'm cool. So

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Speaker 2: this is perfect going to be on the show about

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Speaker 2: when people would do cool stuff because I want to

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Speaker 2: be cool like that. That's how it works, right, and

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Speaker 2: then people want to get friends with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Okay, all right, that's what I'm relying on

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna channel this. Let's go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And we also have Sophie with us, who is

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Speaker 1: not only the producer of the show, but and the

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Speaker 1: coolest and it's also basically the Pope of podcasts. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's the podcasts. And much like the Pope, she decides

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Speaker 1: who lives and who dies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and much like the Pope directly like tells

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Speaker 2: us what's moral and what's not, even if we don't

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Speaker 2: believe her half the time. And I'm just kidding, I

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Speaker 2: always believe you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we just act on whatever Sophie says

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Speaker 1: instead of actually listening to her. Sorry, we painted you

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Speaker 1: into a corner here, so let's move on.

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Speaker 2: I too like fun hats. Yeah, it is true, it's true,

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Speaker 2: you do. Yeah, but you know it's not about me.

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Speaker 2: Let's go, let's go.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, So today we're doing part two of our

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Speaker 1: two part series on the Jaine Collective, who are a

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Speaker 1: badass crew of underground abortionists in pre Roe v. Wade, Chicago.

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Speaker 1: And this episode will make approximately zero sense if you

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Speaker 1: don't go back and listen to part one. So go

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Speaker 1: listen to part one. We'll wait. Okay. So Jane offering

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Speaker 1: abortions no longer reliant on crime guy Nick Mike, but

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Speaker 1: are doing it themselves. Mike Nick, Yeah, Mike Nick.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, And I'm just making sure we have both versions

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Speaker 2: in So, yeah, we are correct, but we did forget

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Speaker 2: the title sexy, so sexy Mike Nick Sexy Nick Mike.

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Speaker 1: Right right, totally, yeah, that is the title of the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like obviously, yeah, okay, So so Jane is offering abortions

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Speaker 1: for every trimester and this is like really not how

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Speaker 1: to DIY in abortion podcast, although if those exist, you

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Speaker 1: should go listen to them, but this is not one

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Speaker 1: of them. And the techniques I'm going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about are like fifty years old and are transmitted through me,

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Speaker 1: who is an absolute lay person, who who doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a uterus and is completely grossed up by the idea

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Speaker 1: of the inside of my own body. Like if I

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Speaker 1: go to a training about how to apply a tourniquet,

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Speaker 1: I what I do is I pretend like I'm not

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Speaker 1: there and then learn the information. So just keep all

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Speaker 1: of that in mind.

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Speaker 2: Seems like a good method of many things. Pretendly they're

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Speaker 2: not there and just learn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, but it it feels important to me to

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Speaker 1: understand some of the ways that people have historically and

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Speaker 1: can temporarily go about ending unwanted pregnancies. For some weird reason,

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Speaker 1: it just seems like really important right now. I'm it's

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Speaker 1: hard to say.

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Speaker 2: Why HM as a person in Georgia with many laws

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Speaker 2: of floating, I don't either.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's so weird, just some in the air,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. And one thing I talked to when

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Speaker 1: I was talking through this show with one of my

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Speaker 1: friends who's a reproductive rights justice activist person all those

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Speaker 1: words in the proper order. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: they were pointing out is that it's important not to

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Speaker 1: present this dark age before Roe v.

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Speaker 2: Wade.

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Speaker 1: Legal abortion access matters, and we need to defend that,

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Speaker 1: but we need to like soberly recognize that people can

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Speaker 1: and have learned how to take care of not just

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Speaker 1: their own health, but like on a community level and

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Speaker 1: on a like a real level, so that people recognize

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Speaker 1: that they do have real options if we lose Roe v. Wade, right,

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Speaker 1: so that it's not like your only option is to

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Speaker 1: go to someone who's really sketchy, because we need to

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Speaker 1: instead fight to make sure that that doesn't become the case.

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Speaker 1: So when Jane started, they're mostly doing a style of

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Speaker 1: abortion called a dilation and curetage or a DNC, especially

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Speaker 1: for first trimester abortions, and what they do is they

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Speaker 1: injected a local anesthetic and then they scrape the walls

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Speaker 1: of the uterus with a loop shape instrument called a curet,

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Speaker 1: and they then provided pills and injections to stop infection

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Speaker 1: and bleeding. And they recommended a gynecologist or they recommend

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Speaker 1: it getting a gulogical checkup, and if you didn't have one,

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Speaker 1: they recommended you one. And D and C, at least

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Speaker 1: as it was performed originally, is a fairly dangerous procedure.

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Speaker 1: It's not a bad procedure. It's important that people be

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Speaker 1: able to do this, but it's a It evolves sharp

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Speaker 1: objects and sensitive areas. And Jane was really fucking good

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Speaker 1: at it. But it seems like some of the worst

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Speaker 1: ways that inexperienced abortionists fuck patients up is with DNC,

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Speaker 1: and especially also with herbal abortions, but we're not going

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Speaker 1: to get into that on the show, and Jane didn't

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Speaker 1: fuck with herbal abortions. To my knowledge, DNC is still

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Speaker 1: used today, although the term is a wider usage now,

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Speaker 1: basically to include things other than a sharp curet. They

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Speaker 1: like suction curets, or a vacuum aspiration as it's sometimes called,

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Speaker 1: where they vacuum things out instead of scraping them out.

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Speaker 1: But to tell you about vacuum aspiration, I get to

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Speaker 1: tell you about a bunch of other really cool people,

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Speaker 1: some people who are let's go with people who are complicated,

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Speaker 1: who did cool things for some of these people instead

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Speaker 1: of people who I want to blanketly tell you are cool. Right,

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Speaker 1: Because Harvey Carmon was not an MD, some reports claim

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Speaker 1: that he is a psychology doctorate, so he was technically

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Speaker 1: a doctor. Others claimed that he just had a master's

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Speaker 1: degree in theater.

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Speaker 2: And vastly different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, it is. He might have had both.

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Speaker 1: He might have later gone back and got a doctor

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Speaker 1: a degree in psychology. I don't know. Okay, when he

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Speaker 1: was still a student, he was practicing abortion in California

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Speaker 1: and one of his patients died and he served two

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Speaker 1: and a half years in prison for it. And I

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Speaker 1: literally don't have a means by which to judge whether

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Speaker 1: or not he was a responsible practitioner who happened to

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Speaker 1: lose a patient due to the circumstances that he was

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Speaker 1: forced into by criminalization, or whether he was a sketchy, fucking,

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Speaker 1: shitty abortionist. I literally don't have a way to at

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Speaker 1: least my information gathering powers did not answer this. But

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Speaker 1: he was an innovator, and which really doesn't answer the

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Speaker 1: question of whether or not he was responsible or ethical,

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Speaker 1: because just because you want to try new shit doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily make it good.

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Speaker 2: Right. It's kind of like when doctors were practicing curing

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Speaker 2: hysteria on women and we know what that led to, right, Totally.

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Speaker 1: One time, when he's in jail for practicing abortions, he

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Speaker 1: invents a new abortion technique which has revolutionized first trimester

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Speaker 1: abortions and is like largely the reason as far as

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Speaker 1: I understand that we have, say, first trimester abortions. However,

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Speaker 1: when I say revolutionize and invented, you'll be shocked to

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Speaker 1: know that Chinese doctors figured it out a long time earlier,

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Speaker 1: and that information was not transmitted to the West until

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Speaker 1: after a Western practitioner figured it out, which happens time

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Speaker 1: and time again. Every time you're like this guy invented

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Speaker 1: a thing, you're like, this guy invented for the Western world.

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Speaker 2: Or got credit for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally something. But he invented something called the Carmen canula,

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Speaker 1: which is a flexible curet and it basically allows vacuum aspiration.

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Speaker 1: It allows the idea of using in this case originally

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Speaker 1: a syringe to suck things out with a flexible tube

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Speaker 1: instead of using a sharp curet and it dramatically reduces

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Speaker 1: the risk of perforating the uterus, and it reduces the

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Speaker 1: need for anesthesia to relax the cervix. And it I

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Speaker 1: mean this just a fucking flexible tube as far as

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Speaker 1: I can tell. And it gets called vacuum aspiration, or

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Speaker 1: the non medical term, and I'm going to talk about

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Speaker 1: this in a little bit, is called menstrual extraction. The former,

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Speaker 1: as best as I understand it is like the medical

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Speaker 1: name and the latter as it's d medicalized name used

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Speaker 1: in different people by two women who immediately took upon

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Speaker 1: his concept and improved upon it. Carol Downer and Lori

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Speaker 1: Anne Rothman were two of the most important underground abortion

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Speaker 1: providers at the time. Yet they're rarely referred to as

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Speaker 1: that because what they did is they invented and again

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Speaker 1: I can't speak to everyone ever having done this before,

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Speaker 1: but they invented a menstrual extraction. They took the existing

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Speaker 1: vacuum aspiration and they added both a one way valve

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Speaker 1: in order to keep air from accidentally going into the uterus,

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Speaker 1: and then also a jarged a mason jar that's attached

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Speaker 1: to it so that more rich material can be removed

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Speaker 1: at once. And so now you can do a full

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Speaker 1: menstrual extraction, which is basically the idea of like you

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Speaker 1: can pass all of your mensies all at once instead

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Speaker 1: of waiting for it to slowly pass. And what happens

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Speaker 1: when you do that is if you happen to be pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and if with a first trimester abortion, you are suddenly

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Speaker 1: no longer pregnant, Okay. And they didn't like advertise this

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Speaker 1: as an abortion technique because that would have been illegal. Instead,

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Speaker 1: they like were like, oh, groups of women could just

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Speaker 1: all get together and provide this service for each other.

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Speaker 1: Because it actually takes multiple people to use this device.

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Speaker 1: You can't necessarily self administer it just because of angles

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Speaker 1: and shit. I don't know, right, and I to be frank,

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Speaker 1: I had never heard of this, and about half of

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Speaker 1: the people I've talked to who have universes had heard

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Speaker 1: of this, and half of them hadn't. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know other.

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Speaker 2: Myself seeing them in person, like I obviously have seen

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Speaker 2: the pictures of them. As you describing me, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: I get it.

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Speaker 1: I get it.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it gets called. Their invention is called a

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Speaker 1: Dell M D E L space EM in case you

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Speaker 1: all want to go look up how to do this

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting thing. In nineteen seventy one, they invent

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Speaker 1: this thing, and then they downplay the abortion side of it.

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Speaker 1: But they go to the National Organization Conference of Women,

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Speaker 1: the NOW Conference in California in nineteen seventy one so

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Speaker 1: they can announce this invention to the world, and they

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Speaker 1: were like, hell, yeah, everyone's going to love this. But

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Speaker 1: instead the NOW organizers were like, this is a little

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Speaker 1: bit much for a booth. I don't think you can

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Speaker 1: have a booth for an abortion here. And they're like, what,

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Speaker 1: it's revn structure right now, I'm putting words in their mouth.

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Speaker 1: And so they put up flyers saying, hey, come to

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Speaker 1: our hotel room and we'll show you how to use

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Speaker 1: this device. And everyone fucking loved it, right because it

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Speaker 1: fucking ruled. Yeah, And so they gathered this list of

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Speaker 1: names and they went on this greyhound tour across the

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Speaker 1: country giving presentations about the Dell M and I just

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Speaker 1: love how like scrappy it is. Is that they like

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Speaker 1: invent this thing that involves Mason Jars and they don't

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Speaker 1: have a car, so they just like again, I mean

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Speaker 1: maybe a car, but they go on a greyhound tour

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Speaker 1: that rules. And Lorraine has a quote from two thousand

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Speaker 1: and two that sums up the sort of de medicalization

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Speaker 1: approach that was popular with a lot of the underground

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Speaker 1: abortion access people before nineteen seventy three. What did women

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Speaker 1: do before there were doctors. Let's stop the humiliation of

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Speaker 1: trying to persuade the powers that be to legalize abortion.

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Speaker 1: Let's just take back the technology, the tools, the skills,

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Speaker 1: and the information to perform early abortions and be in

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Speaker 1: charge of our own reproduction. And once again, you'll be

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Speaker 1: shocked to know that this device is having something of

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Speaker 1: a comeback in the modern era. And so Jane didn't

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Speaker 1: use the del M specifically as far as I can tell,

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Speaker 1: but they did use the Carmen canula extensively, and I

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Speaker 1: think in generally in combination with vacuum aspiration. They also,

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Speaker 1: and this gets into the sketchier side of some of it,

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Speaker 1: they use Another one of Carmen's inventions that was a

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Speaker 1: lot less successful, something called the super coil. I'm actually

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Speaker 1: curious have you heard of this? I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how known this is.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think so. But it's one of those

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Speaker 2: I'm like, as you describe it, I may know of it.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to just be.

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Speaker 2: Like no, no, yeah, because I'm sitting here like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: We've gotten through several devices and I think I'm glazed though,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, keep.

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Speaker 1: Going no, no, no, So the super coil is not

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Speaker 1: around today, okay, because it is a bad idea as

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Speaker 1: far as I can tell. It was meant to revolutionize

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Speaker 1: second trimester abortion. Basically, he was like, I have revolutionized

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Speaker 1: first trimester abortion and made it easier for lay people

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Speaker 1: to do it. Now I want to revolutionize second trimester abortion.

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Speaker 1: And so the super coil involves coiling up like like

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Speaker 1: tightly coiled plastic rings basically attached to a string that

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Speaker 1: are inserted into the uterus and then left to expand

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Speaker 1: so that they could be pulled out and then clear

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Speaker 1: out the area as they you know, I did.

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Speaker 2: Not know what this is. This is horrify though. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've had Sophie. Yeah, so my last

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Speaker 2: interaction with Robert when Sophie was them talking about a

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Speaker 2: birth control that attached itself and to our people's shooters.

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Speaker 2: So this is amazing. I feel like we come full circle. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we definitely have come full circle. But that thing, that

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Speaker 2: thing on that episode with Robert was like one of

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Speaker 2: the It like makes me itchy. I'm like, it was

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Speaker 2: so terrifying. Yeah, I still see people post you. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're back here to something that goes out, expands and

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Speaker 2: tries to pull things out of people's vaginas. So I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: we're back, We're back. That's our thing, Samantha. I love

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Speaker 2: being associated with this. Let's keep going. This is amazing.

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Speaker 2: I mean I'm now like, yes, this is my world,

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Speaker 2: let's go.

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Speaker 1: This is the This is the darkest chunk of this episode.

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Speaker 1: I believe even later they get arrested and it's not

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Speaker 1: as dark as this chunk. So they helped Carmen test it.

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Speaker 1: They they sided with him in debates to come, and

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Speaker 1: they were probably about it. It was meant to help

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Speaker 1: lay people provide abortions. But it was probably too good

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Speaker 1: to be true. Basically like they were. At least one

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Speaker 1: person I read argued that basically they were like sucked

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Speaker 1: in by the idea of like, oh, we have a

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Speaker 1: numerical device. This rules because they had just gotten a

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Speaker 1: numerical device from the same guy. Not numerical but not numbers,

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Speaker 1: but miracle device that is new. So he goes and

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Speaker 1: tests it, and he first tests it through with International

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Speaker 1: planned parenthood on Bangladeshi women at a large scale, and

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Speaker 1: it I'm not aware of it killing anyone, but it

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Speaker 1: did not do incredibly well, and there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of complications.

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Speaker 2: I will say it sounds like it could cause a

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Speaker 2: permanent damage, yes, which is kind of the horror stories

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Speaker 2: people tell that are anti choice about the permanent damage.

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Speaker 2: And this seems to follow suit because I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: something just at that point in time being like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's self working. It just expands and grabs the right things,

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Speaker 2: doesn't what does it exactly?

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Speaker 1: And I've seen a couple different things about whether or

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Speaker 1: not Jane was involved in using this or testing this.

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Speaker 1: I do believe they did use this successfully for a

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Speaker 1: number of abortions, and again, their overall results were that

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Speaker 1: they were as good as any medical facility at that time, right, right, right,

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Speaker 1: But anyway, this is a darker thing that they were

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Speaker 1: involved in, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean that makes me a question did they give

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Speaker 2: the people who came in, the patients and clients a

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Speaker 2: choice on what kind of procedure they could have? And

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Speaker 2: I know they were pretty good about giving like risk

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Speaker 2: statistics and let them know aftercare and all of that.

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Speaker 2: So I wonder if there was like a moment of like,

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Speaker 2: you have these options, now, which would you like to do?

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Speaker 1: I would like to get off of them the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the doubt of that around that, But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And because I honestly did not know this part of

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Speaker 2: this history, I was like, oh, yeah, that's a little alarm.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to start testing things and when you

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Speaker 2: have someone testing on a different group of people, you

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Speaker 2: know is probably not good, which is the history of

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Speaker 2: all medicine essentially. But you know, that's a whole different

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Speaker 2: rabbit hole that I will not do as a negative,

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Speaker 2: neelly moment. So I'm gonna stop now.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean like, and this is like, this

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Speaker 1: is the most warts and all that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get around this and even this is like a complicated thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. One of the things that I read, one

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Speaker 1: of the black women who volunteered for this was like

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Speaker 1: basically defended her position being like I'm paraphrasing, but like,

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Speaker 1: you're fucking kidding me. You're saying that I can't consent

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Speaker 1: to this just because I'm a black woman, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so there's this like I'm reading biased reports, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm reading people who are trying to make positions to

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Speaker 1: either claim that this was this terrible thing that people

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Speaker 1: did or this brilliant, brave thing that people did, And

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Speaker 1: I don't have anything near the right position to understand

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Speaker 1: what is and isn't ethical for what happened here, and

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Speaker 1: like level of informed consent was available, But I'm also

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Speaker 1: under the impression that a lot of their other options

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Speaker 1: were worse.

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Speaker 2: Right, I Mean, again, we come back to the fact

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Speaker 2: that there's so many things that pushes people to a

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Speaker 2: certain point, and when it's not accessible and becomes looked

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Speaker 2: at as again lawful unlawful, then people I push to

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Speaker 2: the point that is uh is extreme, So you do

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Speaker 2: what you can, and people being in that point, we

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Speaker 2: are going to choose what they think is lesser uh

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Speaker 2: able for them. Yeah, and it's not the case like

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Speaker 2: that's he shouldn't have to be even that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And and so as a Carmen, he kind

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Speaker 1: of disappears after this whole fiasco. He's like, I tried

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Speaker 1: to invent a thing and it didn't work, and he

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Speaker 1: kind of his trub was cold, at least from my

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Speaker 1: my slooping at this point.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a medical doctor, right, you're saying that he's

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Speaker 2: either gone maybe maybe in psychology, but also maybe theater.

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Speaker 1: Like you just right did a thing. However, as as

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Speaker 1: a different states would legalize abortion, he was so well

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Speaker 1: known that he would be invited to come participate in

375
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Speaker 1: legal abortion areas because he was a really experienced abortionist.

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Speaker 1: But that also empowered him to do all of these

377
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Speaker 1: things that are real messy, and so it's just like

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting that like this is the person who

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Speaker 1: did the thing that got say, first trimester abortions available,

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Speaker 1: you know, right, I mean some good did come of it, right,

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Speaker 1: and now we have chemical abortions for first trimester that

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Speaker 1: are safer and better than this method. As far as

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Speaker 1: I understand him, a circumstances, but I don't know.

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Speaker 2: There's so many things to this in this conversation about

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Speaker 2: what this looks like when it is not considered healthcare

386
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Speaker 2: and why it's so blase, and yes, some good did

387
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Speaker 2: come of it, but some bad to come of it,

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Speaker 2: and then there's this need of like understanding it is healthcare.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally okay, but who is cool? Yes, I will

390
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Speaker 1: go on a I don't know limb to say is

391
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 1: another abortionist to popularize some shit that Jane wound up

392
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Speaker 1: using a guy named Robert Spencer. And Robert Spencer was

393
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Speaker 1: a true believer and he was not a grifter. He

394
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 1: was a doctor, an actual medical doctor, and the coal

395
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Speaker 1: fields in Ashland, Pennsylvania, and he cut his doctoring teeth

396
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Speaker 1: inventing new ways to treat black lung and coal miners,

397
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Speaker 1: including a lot of pioneering work. And I don't know

398
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,959
Speaker 1: to pronounce this word bronchoscopy. Bronchios is ticking cameras down

399
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: people's throats, I don't know, looking at people's throats. And

400
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: he did experiment with black lung. But this is also

401
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 1: a situation where you're like, oh, these coal miners are

402
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 1: dying and no one here is like paying attention to

403
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: black lung except me, and so he's very well liked,

404
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 1: this doctor in this town. And then sometime in the

405
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: early twenties, he starts a coal miner's wife is like,

406
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Speaker 1: you know, I'm pregnant. I'd really rather not be. And

407
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Speaker 1: I tried calling Jane, but the number isn't active yet

408
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: or something. I'm like forty years too early. So he

409
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 1: he performs an abortion, and then he just starts performing

410
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Speaker 1: abortions in this town. And he single handedly performed something

411
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Speaker 1: like forty thousand abortions. He died in nineteen sixty nine

412
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Speaker 1: before his work could become legal, and his wife burned

413
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Speaker 1: all of his records, I guess to either protect his

414
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: legacy or maybe his staff or maybe herself, I don't know.

415
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: And he eventually the entire town's economy, like huge chunk

416
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Speaker 1: of the town's economy relies on this guy because people

417
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Speaker 1: are coming from all over the place to get abortions here,

418
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Speaker 1: and they like staying at hotels and shit. But the

419
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: hotels didn't some of the hotels at least didn't let

420
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Speaker 1: black patients stay. So he built accommodations so that black

421
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 1: patients could still come and get abortions. In this town.

422
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: He was arrested three times for providing abortions. One of

423
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Speaker 1: the times he was arrested, at least was because a

424
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Speaker 1: patient died. They died from anesthesia problems. And you know,

425
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Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor. I know that anesthesia is a

426
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: complicated thing, especially eighty years ago. You know, I'm not

427
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: trying to like lay judgment at him for this, but

428
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: he was acquitted two of the times he was arrested

429
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Speaker 1: because I think everyone in town was like, you can't

430
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Speaker 1: convict this guy. You what are you talking about? Like

431
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Speaker 1: this is our guy. We like this guy. We're like

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Speaker 1: abortion town.

433
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Speaker 2: He's making his money, come on, yeah, yeah.

434
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: And like and he also had union protection, The United

435
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 1: Mine Workers had his.

436
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 2: Beat was it the coal Okay, okay, yeah, ok.

437
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: And they're like union miners did not fuck around back then,

438
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 1: as our boy, don't touch him.

439
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

440
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: And to his quote about why why people liked him,

441
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,479
Speaker 1: I've been here since nineteen nineteen. I dare say I've

442
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: helped out half the town, even on the abortion end.

443
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: There's probably one of my patients related to a family

444
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: in half the town. I think most of the town

445
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: would stand up for me.

446
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: That's just like I think they would stand up with me.

447
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: I think I think we're cool.

448
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so he's seventy nine years old. He keeps

449
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: going into retirement and then coming out of retirement because

450
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,479
Speaker 1: people need his help, right, because he's really fucking good

451
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: at his job, and he provides abortions for cheap And

452
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: I'll get to that. And he's seventy nine and he's

453
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: awaiting trial for a third time and he dies of

454
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: old age while like actively practicing, and he was performing

455
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: three to four abortions a day right up to the end.

456
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: There's this whole article from Village Voice from nineteen sixty nine.

457
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: I think it's called the Death of an Abortionist, and

458
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: it's a journalist who travels down there to basically just

459
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: to meet him, just to be like, you are amazing.

460
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 1: You are the reason that people feel safe, you know.

461
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: And he charged the cheapest rates, some of the cheapest

462
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: rates of anyone. His first abortions cost five dollars, and

463
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: then as the cost of drugs and overhead went up,

464
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: at the end, he was charging two hundred dollars. In

465
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 1: the late sixties, but again most abortions were costing six

466
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: hundred to two thousand dollars. He was this like lovable weirdo.

467
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 1: He treated everyone kindly. He covered his office in like

468
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: weird plaques from tourist traps. And the Village Voice journalist

469
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: who showed up, she asks him, like, why did you

470
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: perform abortions when the people first asked you? And he said,

471
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: because I could see their point of view? And I

472
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: just I love that as an answer, you know, just

473
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: like basic human empathy. And his name never really appeared

474
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: until he died. His name like didn't really appear much

475
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: in print. I think one place dox him or whatever,

476
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: but he was always just printed as the legendary doctor

477
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: s and Okay. And he popularized a technique or using

478
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,719
Speaker 1: something called I don't pronounce this word Loundback's paste Loanback's

479
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: paste to help dilate the cervix. It's like a soft soap.

480
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: Is not currently in use, but Jane used it and

481
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: was very glad for it. It helped make their whole

482
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: anesthesia process much safer. And they I don't know whether

483
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: they made their own or got it from Robert Spencer,

484
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: because Robert Senser was making his own because it was

485
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: no longer commercially available. I don't know. I think he's

486
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: cool too, And I really liked that Jane was building

487
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: from This was part of this larger framework of people

488
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: who were like, how do we do this like absent

489
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: of like the medical industry, how do we actually like

490
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: figure out how to do this safely.

491
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: And well right, actually caring about their patients? That's revolutionary?

492
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, God, I wish I wish that revolution that's stuck. Yeah,

493
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: you know who does care about their patients?

494
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: Who? I'm ready?

495
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: Well, potatoes, I've been I've been trying to get advertised

496
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: by potatoes. I don't know how potatoes have become doctors,

497
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: but I think potatoes are great. And I want to

498
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: be sponsored by entirely wholesome things. So if you hear

499
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: anything unwholesome in the ads, that was a mistake.

500
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: It's Robert's fault. It's Robert again, it's Robert's fault.

501
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: Agreed. Yeah, And so here's some ads for potatoes and

502
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: maybe some other stuff. And we're back and we're discussing

503
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: whether or not we should actually expand our list of

504
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: sponsors to include kittens.

505
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: I mean, you cook cute and cut it dogs. I

506
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: think yes, I mean it's good to diversify. I mean,

507
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: I think it's important that we talk about kittens and puppies.

508
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: Right, I think so. We just have to make clear

509
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: that we're advertising the concept of kittens and puppies, not

510
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: the people who traditionally go about selling kittens and puppies.

511
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: Yes, it's very clear. Not a kitten mill or puppy

512
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: mill type situation at all. Is the idea of just

513
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: cuddling with some kittens or cuddling with a dog maybe,

514
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: or at least looking at cute pictures.

515
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, while one kitten is in one arm and one

516
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: puppy is in the other arm.

517
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: My favorite is when kittens and dogs are friends.

518
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I can't wait to introduce my dog to

519
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: more cats. It's actually never gone. Well, so I actually

520
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: think my.

521
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: Dog does not love cats either. This is the fantasy though.

522
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: Well, my dog loves cats, the cats don't love the dog.

523
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: That's fair. He does not know how to play. So

524
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 1: I want to quote a little bit at length from

525
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: why Jane Collective did this work. It's from a statement

526
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: about why they did is a pamphlet that they gave

527
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: to prospective clients. Abortion as a social problem. We are

528
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: giving our time not only because we want to make

529
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: abortions safer, cheaper, and more accessible for the individual women

530
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: who come to us. But because we see the whole

531
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: abortion issue as a problem of society, the current abortion

532
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: laws are a symbol of something subtle but often blatant

533
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: oppression of women. In our society. Women should have the

534
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: right to control their own bodies and lives. Only a

535
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: woman who is pregnant can determine whether or not she

536
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: has enough resources economic, physical, and emotional at a given

537
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: time to bear and rear a child. Yet at present,

538
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: the decision to bear the child or to have an

539
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: abortion is taken out of her hands by government bodies,

540
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: which can have only the slightest notion of the problems involved.

541
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: The same society that glamorizes women as sex objects and

542
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,479
Speaker 1: teaches them from an early childhood to please and satisfy men,

543
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: views pregnancy and childbirth as punishment for immoral or careless

544
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 1: sexual activity, especially if the woman is on edge, cad, poor,

545
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: or black. Our society's view of equal opportunity means that

546
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: lower class women bear unwanted children or face expensive, illegal,

547
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: and often unsafe abortions, while well connected, middle class women

548
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: can frequently get safe and hush hush dncs and hospitals.

549
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: Only women can bring about their own liberation. It is

550
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: time for women to get together to change the male

551
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: made laws and aid their sisters caught in the bind

552
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: of legal restrictions and social stigma. Women must fight together

553
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: to change the attitudes of society about abortion and to

554
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: make the state provide free abortions as a human right.

555
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: I like that.

556
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: I like that.

557
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: There's so many things that like it just applies today.

558
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: I know we're talking about that, but the problem is

559
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: because it is women centered typically, and especially during that time,

560
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: people see that as being less important in conversation. Has

561
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: become made in a moral ground. Yeah, even though it's

562
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: very political obviously, but yeah, I do love that sentiment

563
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: and h and we still need that sentiment.

564
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, No. I I like like sometimes when I get

565
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: like lost in the weeds about like this is how

566
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: they did this one thing and this is how they

567
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,479
Speaker 1: did this other thing, and then instead you're just kind

568
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: of like, here's like a hundred people who got together

569
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: to commit felonies to try and keep people safe, and

570
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: it's just like that's always cool, you know, like like

571
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: and there's always something I don't know, So I like

572
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: hearing the the why they did it. But speaking of felonies,

573
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: this is not an ad transition. I'm not advertising felonies

574
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: on the I'm probably advertising felonies on the show, but

575
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 1: not from the point of view of a sponsorship.

576
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, not trying to get money for it.

577
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well you got to go out and get

578
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: your own money, you know, felonies, just say it. Yeah. So,

579
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: so Jane is this big open secret and everyone knows

580
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: about it. They advertised and they had security procedures in place,

581
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: but clearly the police knew about them, and most of

582
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: the reporting about Jane basically says the cops didn't bust

583
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: them because the cops kind of liked them. They were

584
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: clean and safe and no one was dying, so why

585
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: bust them? Right? To me, this fundamentally misunderstands the nature

586
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: of the police, especially the Chicago Police Department. In a

587
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 1: nation of corup police departments, Chicago like consistently stands out

588
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: as one of the crookedest. And the other thing you'll

589
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: hear is that police put up with it because the

590
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: wives of police and the wives of politician were amongst

591
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: their clients. And this feels more plausible to me. But

592
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: I suspect that politicians' wives at least could afford a

593
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: trip to New York, and so I feel like there's

594
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: some kind of like, to be clear, I think crime

595
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: is cool, But the same accounts also say that mafia

596
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: didn't come after them for similar reasons. They're like, oh, well,

597
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: they're not really making a profit, so why would the

598
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: mafia care? And this doesn't sound like if that doesn't

599
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: sound like the police, and that doesn't sound like the mafia.

600
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: So this is amazing, all of this, all this moment

601
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: is amazing.

602
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: Thank you.

603
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just I'm enjoying this entire thing, all right.

604
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: The other part of this is because they don't see

605
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: this as an issue for them because at that point

606
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: in time, I think the majority of the police were men. Yeah,

607
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: just speaking, so since it was a woman's thing, it's

608
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: also kind of like same level of like not talking

609
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: about periods and being shameful about women's bodies. So it

610
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: was like a good point, we're gonna particular you don't

611
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: exist because it's easier for us to ew icky, even

612
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: though I mean to be frank, the majority of the

613
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: times kind of like today when we talk about abortion

614
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: and abortion rights and abortion being healthcare men typically outside

615
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: of the morally loud, like this isn't just whatever, just

616
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: don't care because it has nothing to do with them,

617
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: and it's just gross and it's like, eh, it's women's issues,

618
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: so we'd rather just ignore it, and doesn't think it's

619
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: necessarily important. Of course we've got the religious bits.

620
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, this is actually, this is actually that

621
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: helps sell me on it better because like all I

622
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: can see, I am again really not trying to use

623
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: anyone who might be alive of any kind of crime,

624
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: but it seems like the mafia might have been getting

625
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: a share out of this. I don't know, again like

626
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: no judgment of whatever people need to do to keep

627
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: the shit running. But yeah, because everyone knows about this

628
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: and no one's doing anything about it. But the thing

629
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: you're saying also about like basically people being like we're

630
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: just not going to fucking touch it is also completely possible.

631
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: And then the way it all falls apart, well, it

632
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: doesn't actually really fall apart. The way that some people

633
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: get in trouble can be told a couple different ways.

634
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: I've run across one probable story and then one maybe story.

635
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: One day in nineteen seventy three, a Catholic woman comes

636
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: to get an abortion, and at the time, I actually

637
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: behind the bastards did a better podcast. But this and

638
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: I remember exactly when the Protestants started caring about abortion,

639
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: but for a while, like only the Catholics cared. Catholic

640
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: woman comes in to get an abortion, and she was

641
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: a mixed minds about the whole thing. A Jane volunteer

642
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: named Genie Gallitzer Leve spends a long time talking with

643
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: her about it and like counseling her, and later she's

644
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: really bitter about the long time she's spent talking to

645
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: her about it. Her sister in law, the patient's sister

646
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: in law, was there with her, and her sister in

647
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: law called them in. And what I've heard is that

648
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: she didn't call them into the police station in the

649
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: district where they were like seen as friendly, but instead

650
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: called them into a different district, and so suddenly bad

651
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: things happen. But that's the story I hear most often told.

652
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: Another account is that the anti abortion lobby was trying

653
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: to get some arrests in to do some damage on

654
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: the legal front because Supreme Court was about to see

655
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade, and which spoiler alert legalized abortion federally

656
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: across the US and a seven to two ruling, So

657
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: maybe someone wanted to get some abortionists on trial and hurry.

658
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: And then there's a third story, which comes from the

659
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: person who's very critical of the super coil testing, that

660
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: the bust happened on a day that they were planning

661
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: on doing supercil testing and that it was like related

662
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: to all of that. I tend to believe the the

663
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: Catholic story best, but I feel like there's something I

664
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: actually don't believe any of these stories. Frankly, that's what.

665
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is.

666
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just know that they got raided and we

667
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: don't know how it began. But yeah, it could be

668
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: any of the stories. But that's the one I heard too,

669
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: is the Catholic Two Catholic women have reported them, but

670
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: any physical reason. Again, it was coincidentally around and I

671
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: will use air quotes more coincidentally around Roe versus Wade

672
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: and the big back ladging back and forth and controversy

673
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: with that. So yeah, yeah, I've had them with you.

674
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I would put the most likely is

675
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: the combination of the first two things. Is the Catholic

676
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: women and some people trying to get some shit on

677
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: going on. I don't know, but yeah, they get raided.

678
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: A May third, nineteen seventy two, Genie is working at

679
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: the front and she's caring for three children left behind

680
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: by a patient. When she hears a knock at the door.

681
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: She thought it was another Jane who had just like

682
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: dropped off some snacks, come back to drop off more snacks,

683
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: or maybe forgot's something or something, and instead it was cops,

684
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: really really tall cops. Genie is like, let them in

685
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: and told everyone in the waiting room, these are the police.

686
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: You don't have to tell them anything. And then Genie,

687
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,479
Speaker 1: describing the event, says, they were really tall, really weird.

688
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: I developed this whole theory. I love crackpot theories. I

689
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: intend to be a crackpot when I grow up. This

690
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: is Genie, not me, although it is also true of me.

691
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: No, this is even better.

692
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, quote, I intend to be a crackpot when

693
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: I grow up. My theory is that you had to

694
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: be really tall to be a homicide cop. These were

695
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: homicide cops because abortion was a homicide, and they were

696
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: homicide cops who hated being there. You know, it's not

697
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: easy to make homicide detective. You have to be really good.

698
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: It's not even political, like taking the sergeant's exam. You

699
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: have to really do something, and they do it because

700
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: they want to. And by and large, what they do

701
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: is track people down who kill other people, and they

702
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: think of themselves as good guys and they hated being there.

703
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: This was not their kind of crime. End quote.

704
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 2: That is an interesting theory. I really like there's so

705
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: many observations about just the male appearance, that these characters

706
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: are so like that they're all tall, very tall.

707
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: She is though I know, right, all the cops are

708
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 1: like five foot seven, you know, right.

709
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, average, but they're tall as I'm four foot eleven, okay.

710
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, or maybe they like scent. They're like, there

711
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: are three people who are, you know, six foot six?

712
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: Over to go arrest everyone. So they detain everyone at

713
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: the front and they start asking everyone questions. And the

714
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: way they figured out who the Janes were, apparently, is

715
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: that when they asked the Janes questions, the Janes refused

716
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: to answer. And while this did get them separated out

717
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: for arrest, it probably saved them later in court, or

718
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: at least it was very helpful in court. Their lawyer

719
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: later thanked them, was like, I'm so glad you all

720
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: didn't say anything, right, And patients, though, were asked all

721
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: kinds of questions and they largely answered one question that

722
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: left the cops completely confused. They kept asking how much

723
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: the Jane's charged, and everyone gave wildly different answers. The

724
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: police came, I guess, maybe expecting a mafia style for

725
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: profit enterprise, and they didn't find one. And at the

726
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: same time, the cops arrive at the place and arrest

727
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: everyone there. And apparently they showed up and they were like,

728
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: where are all the men? Though, you know who's doing

729
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: the abortions? Right, So I guess they actually really didn't

730
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: know Jane inside it out, you know, if they think

731
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: all these things and so at least they probably weren't infiltrated, right,

732
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: if this is what the cops.

733
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: Think true, no spies.

734
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tend to think that, like the cops know everything, right,

735
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: because we talk about how we live in a pentopticon

736
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: and we're all being studied all the time or whatever,

737
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: and then like every now and then the cops are

738
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: just like they don't know shit. I want to tell

739
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: a completely off based story about all of this right.

740
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: One time, my friend was being investigated as the leader

741
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: of international anarchism by the FEDS, and never mind, I'm

742
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: not going to tell that story. Okay.

743
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: So there's so many levels of understanding why. I'm like, yeah,

744
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: I have I have a cookie cutter of vanilla life,

745
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: and I'm really sad that I'm not a part of this.

746
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: I don't want to be investigated because I do not

747
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: have the anxiety to go through an investment. But just

748
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: knowing someone, I'm like, yeah, hell yeah they are. Yeah.

749
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: Well the spoiler alert, there is no leader of international anarchism.

750
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: It goes against the whole idea, and eventually the fense

751
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: figured that out. But the more personal details about it,

752
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into.

753
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: You're not You're not gonna do that, Okay, Yeah, but okay, So.

754
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: They're all thrown into paddy wagons. They're taken off to jail,

755
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: and Genie says that when they were taken off to

756
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: jail on the paddy wagon, all the all the other

757
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: women in the in the paddy wagon were sex workers

758
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: who kept everyone in good spirits by just like telling

759
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: fun horrible stories about their lives or whatever. And I

760
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: really like that they were there to keep everyone's spirits up.

761
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,479
Speaker 1: And then in the paddy wagon, the jaans all pulled

762
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: out all the index cards with all of the patient

763
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: info and shit, and they rip them up in the

764
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: little pieces, passed them out and ate them, which is

765
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: a great badass. They only spent one night in jail,

766
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: probably because they're middle class white women. One of them,

767
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: I think, one of them, who was a nursing mother,

768
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: was let go that night because she had to go

769
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: home and feed her kids. And Genie talks about how

770
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: the cops like treated them all well as fellow middle

771
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: class white people while being rude to any of the

772
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: patients who ended up in jail and all the other

773
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: people and all the other women in jail, which yeah,

774
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: I guess doesn't really surprise anyone who's listening to this. Yeah,

775
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: but in jail all the only food they got offered

776
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: was bolooney sandwiches, which Genie couldn't eat, presumably because she

777
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: was vegetarian. And the reason that I include this is

778
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: because one time I was arrested at this demonstration in

779
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: DC thirty years after all this shit, and in two

780
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: thousand and two, and they gave us all Bolooney sandwiches,

781
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: and we all just like sat there and like laughed

782
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: at our Blooney sandwiches because we were all fucking like

783
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: vegans and vegetarians and shit, and we're like, what are

784
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: we going to do with this? And it was it

785
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: was mostly a bad experience. But I was only in

786
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: jail for like thirty six hours, possibly because I'm middle

787
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: class and white and I don't know, so I didn't

788
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: get to eat in jail and sucked, but whatever. I

789
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: just like that this has been like a true thing forever.

790
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 1: Is that like when hippies and activists and shit get arrested,

791
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: they're like, what the fuck am I gonna do this?

792
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: Blooney sandwich? Yeah, So they get led out on bail

793
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: and they're each facing one hundred and ten years because

794
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: the eleven counts of homicide and conspiracy to commit homicide

795
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 1: in the case that will be known as the abortion seven.

796
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: And at least according to Genie, Jane kind of distances

797
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 1: themselves at this point from them, and they I guess

798
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: like as like they were like, Oh, it's this strategic necessity,

799
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: We're going to keep going. And Jane did keep going

800
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: while the trial was ongoing, but it still doesn't sound

801
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: good to me, honestly, and Genie at least felt really betrayed.

802
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: According to the interview I read with her. The rest

803
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 1: of the feminist movement kind of though, had her back.

804
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: There was a defense committee formed with the sick name

805
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: of the Abortion Task Force the ATF, and several of

806
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: the arrestees were part of an organization called the Leche Lee,

807
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: which was a pro nursing organization. Nursing, I guess was

808
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: out of style at the time, and La Leche League

809
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: had their back, which fucking rules that the like the

810
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: Mother's Association was like, yeah, of course we're defending these abortionists,

811
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: you know. And I don't really know what the distancing

812
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: looked like because several of the Abortion seven actually went

813
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: back to work for Jane while they were out on bail,

814
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: which is also fucking badass, and they spent a while

815
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: finding lawyer. Most of the lawyers they found were terrible.

816
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: One guy was very movement focused and wanted them to

817
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: basically go to prison, was like, yeah, you're gonna be

818
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: martyrs for the cause, you know, and they're like, we

819
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: don't like that very much. This is not actually our plan.

820
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: And so finally they settled on Joe Anne Wolfson, who

821
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: one account calls the Queen of the hopeless, and she

822
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: once ran away from home to join the circus and

823
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 1: like work with elephants and shit. Okay. So her brother

824
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: was an attorney too, who once got sentenced to seventy

825
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 1: years in prison in nineteen eighty five after pleading guilty

826
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: to racketeering in an anti corruption case in Chicago. That'

827
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: saw a fuck ton of the judges, lawyers, and cops

828
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: sent away for organized crime. So, okay, mafia and corruption

829
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: shit just runs deep in Chicago. Yeah, of course, So

830
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: this is their lawyer and she is the what I

831
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: do know about her, she was the right lawyer for

832
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: the job, and she rules. She saw Roe v. Wade

833
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: on the horizon and she was like, all right, here's

834
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: the plan. Let's delay this shit as long as possible.

835
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: And the court was fine with that plan too, because frankly,

836
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: they saw the writing on the wall and they didn't

837
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: want to waste court resources on it. So in January

838
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, the Supreme Court decided that the Fourteenth

839
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: Amendments guarantee of the right to privacy included the right

840
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: to have abortions in a very I had my lawyer

841
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: friend try and explain this whole thing to me recently,

842
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: and Roe v. Wade is like complicated as a from

843
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: a legal perspective, but it worked for now for good.

844
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: We'll see maybe but time you're listening to this anyway. Whatever.

845
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: So prosecutors knew if they wanted, they could come after

846
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: them for practicing medicine without a license, but they decided

847
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: it was more trouble than it was worth and they

848
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: really just didn't want to make a fuss out of it.

849
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: That said, also, my your friend was explaining to me

850
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: that most Supreme Court decisions are not retroactive. But basically

851
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: they're like this shit, as far as I can tell,

852
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: they're like, this shit is way too political. We don't

853
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: want to fucking touch this case. So they made they

854
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: cut a deal. We don't charge you with practicing medicine

855
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: without a license, you don't ask for your medical equipment back,

856
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: and the Jane seven said, oh my god, yes please.

857
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: They took their deal and their charges were dropped. The

858
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: end of Jane that's the name of my little section

859
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: in the script. Roby Wade fucking rules and I don't

860
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: want to pretend like it doesn't. The fact that it's

861
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: under threat is fucking bad.

862
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: You know.

863
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: I hope that this doesn't sound like we're talking from

864
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: distant utopian past when you all hear this episode come

865
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: come out, because this episode will probably come out about

866
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: a month after we record it. But it's not enough,

867
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 1: and the women of Jane knew that right because abortion

868
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: was legalized, but it was also remedicalized. It went back

869
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: in the hands of maile doctors. It became it tied

870
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: once again into an inaccessible medical system that treats women

871
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: like bodies like cars to be fixed. Jane actually continued

872
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: for a few weeks after the ruling, but everyone was

873
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,959
Speaker 1: just so fucking exhausted and burned out and the fire

874
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: was gone. And ironically, they were afraid that they might

875
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: catch charges for because the for profit medical industry might

876
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: lead the charge on them for practicing medicine without a license.

877
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: They threw a fucket were done now party, and Jane

878
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: was over after their fucket were done now party, which

879
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 1: is the way I'm praising it, And I like that

880
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: people miss the intensity of it. Jane. Activist Ruth Circle

881
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: put it like this. For the people I know, it

882
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: was the single most intense period of our life, and

883
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: when it stopped, there was something missing and you couldn't

884
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: find anything to do that carried quite that energy for

885
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: a long time. But you know what does carry energy

886
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: is potatoes. And you should eat food of some type,

887
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: whatever type you like, but it is healthy and good

888
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: and that's why we advertise it on this show, the

889
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: concept of food.

890
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: Have we talked of sweet potatoes?

891
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, all potatoes. All potatoes are great as well as

892
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: whatever's abby and advertised. And we are back. And so

893
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: this intensity leaving is something that I think is familiar

894
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: to a lot of people who are involved in activism,

895
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: especially like more intense activism. I'm guessing that anyone who

896
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: was radicalized by the twenty twenty demonstrations has felt this

897
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: when you leave this moment of intensity. But people keep

898
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: going right. TRM. Howard, the black civil rights leader who

899
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: is the first abortionist the network called. He kept providing

900
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: abortions now legally and his private black owned practice offered

901
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: abortions for fifty dollars less than what local hospitals charged.

902
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: The Defense Committee with that sick name the ATF, they

903
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: switched to becoming a new group that also had a

904
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: sick name health evaluation and referral services. Hers. It's a

905
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 1: shitty name, but it's a great acronym, and I feel

906
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: like they really, I don't know, they started off with

907
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: not strong naming game, but I think that they over

908
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: the course of time they figured it out.

909
00:45:58,880 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 2: Get in there.

910
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Hers and Heather Booth, Jane's founder, they went

911
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: on to start the Chicago Abortion Fund in Chicago nineteen

912
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: eighty five, which is a nonprofit that is still around

913
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: today and is a simple, clean, honest name that does

914
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: what it says on the tin. And as the host

915
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: of cool people did cool stuff, I appreciate a thing

916
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: that just does what it says on the tin. So

917
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the other direct

918
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: action abortionists who've come since, because this need continues, right

919
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: and there are millions of people who've done this kind

920
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: of work. Probably as long as there's been legal restrictions

921
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: on abortion, there have been people fighting against it. You

922
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: talked about some of them actually at the beginning of

923
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: the show, and I'm hoping you chime in with more

924
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: of them as I go through some of these and

925
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 1: I want to do more episodes about more of these people,

926
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: or I think people can listen to other podcasts that

927
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: talk about it too, So normally I stick with people

928
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: in the past for this show, but this issue just

929
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: feels too important to me right now to not include

930
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: some of these. So there's Women on Waves, which is

931
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,760
Speaker 1: a Dutch organization that was started by the physician Rebecca

932
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: Gombert's in nineteen ninety nine. And she used to be

933
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: the ship's doctor aboard a Greenpeace ship and she was like, oh,

934
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: boats are fucking cool, which is my paraphrasing, not a

935
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: direct quote. So she got a boat and she headed

936
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: out to various countries with restrictive abortion practices. She loads

937
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: up patients on shore heads twenty miles out to sea,

938
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: and since it's a Dutch ship, Dutch law is in effect,

939
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: though even the Dutch are a little wary about the

940
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: whole thing, and the ship is only authorized to provide

941
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: the abortion pill non surgical abortions to pregnancies up to

942
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: nine weeks. And they don't just provide abortions, they provide

943
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: contraception and education. And the first place they go is

944
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: Ireland because you don't have to go very far from

945
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: the Netherlands to go to a country that had terrible

946
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: abortion laws in two thousand and one. Ironically, Ireland is

947
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 1: liberalizing as abortion laws just as the US is regressing.

948
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: And this boat is super contentious. And also it's contentious

949
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: when you tell people who have ships that they're called

950
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: boats because they don't like that. They like to be like,

951
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: this is a ship, not a boat. But I think

952
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: it's funny because boat is a cuter name. So Portugal

953
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: blocks women on waves from approaching with a fucking warship.

954
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: And then in Guatemala they make it less than a

955
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: day before a war ship comes and pushes them out

956
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: to see and oh, in the you actually were talking

957
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: about Poland earlier. Women on Waves once flew a drone

958
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: carrying abortion pills into Germany from Poland, in case anyone

959
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: needs any ideas amazing and Rebecca Gomperts goes on in

960
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen to form a nonprofit called aid Access that

961
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: focuses on helping pregnant people self manage their own abortions

962
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: with abortion pills, which are generally a combination of I

963
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: don't know how to pronounce these words. I'm terribly sorry.

964
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: Maybe you do, MiFi, prestone, and mysoposatol. These are the

965
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: primary abortion pills that people are taking right now to

966
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: end first trimester abortions and sending them through the mail

967
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: in the US and to other countries that are increasingly

968
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: criminalizing abortion. And they field at about fifty thousand requests

969
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: in the first year that they were operational. At least

970
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 1: one organization is bulletproofing vans getting ready to help people

971
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: safely leave Texas to get to states where they can

972
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: get the healthcare they need. They're like park getting ready

973
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: to park the vans right outside the border of Texas.

974
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: And frankly, what isn't isn't legal, doesn't dictate what is

975
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: and isn't safe. Right During the fifty years we've had

976
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade in the US, abortion workers have regularly

977
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: risked and sometimes lost their lives in order to help

978
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: people terminate unwanted pregnancies. Receptionists, security guards, and clinic escorts

979
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: have all been murdered, kidnapped, attack threatened, you name it, right,

980
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I bring that up, I

981
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: hate ending on this kind of darker note, but one

982
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: of the reasons I bring that up is because we

983
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 1: can have this concept that direct action abortion can only

984
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: happen when it's illegal and that's just not true. Like

985
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. In one southern city I lived in,

986
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: there were for years there were no clinic escorts because

987
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: the people and clinic escorts, for anyone who doesn't know,

988
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: are the people who waited outside of clinic and shield

989
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: patients from the abuse from anti choice protesters. And there

990
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: are no clinic escorts in this town because all the

991
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: escorts have been followed home and had their windows shot out.

992
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: And my sister does clinic escording, and I just want

993
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: to shout her out. She's a direct action hero from

994
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 1: my point of view. Even if what she's doing is legal,

995
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: you know, it's still a risk. Yeah, totally. I only

996
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: did it once. It was a long time ago in Louisville, Kentucky.

997
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: And basically as I understood it, I was told by

998
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: the punks in town. They were like, the anti choice

999
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: protesters here are like really scary, so they want the

1000
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: scary punks to come be the clinic escorts. Yeah, you know,

1001
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: because like normally, if you don't have really bad protesters,

1002
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: you kind of don't want the scary people to come

1003
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: to like help escort people in. But when people are

1004
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: really threatening, then you call the really threatening looking people,

1005
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: which when I was twenty, I was a very threatening

1006
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: looking person just by being a punk.

1007
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: I love it. I love that be'st the threat. It's like,

1008
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm a punk, that's right, come.

1009
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: On, yeah yeah. And we were all like full of ourselves,

1010
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: like twenty year old anarchists who were like, we'll do anything,

1011
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 1: you know, And the world needs lots of angry twenty

1012
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: year olds. Also, unfortunately, it also needs a lot of

1013
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: the angry twenty year olds to stop. It depends on

1014
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: what they're angry about, really.

1015
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, just a reminder, I mean, I just

1016
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 2: want to put this also sad little fact in here.

1017
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: Even after a Rowe Versus waged in the Supreme Court

1018
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven, we had the High Amendment, which

1019
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: is still in place and has never gone away, which

1020
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 2: restricts funds for health care and access, which means pretty much,

1021
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 2: it is a very classist and racist amendment making sure

1022
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: those who really probably are the ones that need it

1023
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 2: and need this help and need this choice are the

1024
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: ones that can't get access to safe abortion and safe

1025
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: reproductive care in general. And then that has always been

1026
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: in place and it has not been removed, and it

1027
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: has not even come close to being removed and could

1028
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: have been and should have been by some administrations. But

1029
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 2: that's something to remember to Yeah, but that's part of

1030
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: the problem is we have other things that yeah, sure,

1031
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: now we supposedly have the right to do so, but

1032
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: we don't have access to do so. And that's a

1033
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 2: conversation we need to have in pretending like it's actually

1034
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 2: free and it's not or not actually free, that it's

1035
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: actually accessible and it's not, and who that truly affects

1036
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 2: and why it's such a bigger conversation, as well as

1037
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 2: the fact that the gag rule exists, which Title ten

1038
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: came in trying to help out to get those funds,

1039
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 2: and then we have the gag rules saying like well, nah,

1040
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: I guess individuals can choose this. So it gets so

1041
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: convoluted and there's so many policies and amendments on top

1042
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: of each other that it becomes almost impossible to know

1043
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: what is accessible and what is legal. And yeah, just

1044
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: because it's not legal doesn't mean you can't get it, yeah,

1045
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: or you should be. But like that's this whole conversation

1046
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: in this bigger picture of like we're coming back to

1047
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: the basics unfortunately, but we because we were never unable

1048
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: to unravel the minute details that really bind us. For

1049
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 2: those who want to get that ability, they just have

1050
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: a choice. And again, reproductive care is not just an abortion,

1051
00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: Like there's just a whole bigger conversation once again, the

1052
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 2: fact that the COBA morbidity for black women is higher, Like,

1053
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: it's just there's so many conversations and what these policies

1054
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: are and who they truly affect and why these policies

1055
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: are in place. It's it's supremacy, patriarchy, those things. The

1056
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 2: reason we keep harping on these two, these three words,

1057
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 2: and people get pissed off about it is because it's true. Yeah,

1058
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: there's no other ex I'm sorry, I'm sorry it bothers you,

1059
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 2: and that you've been benefiting from that fuck you is

1060
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 2: still true.

1061
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I ran finished, No, no, no, I incredibly,

1062
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: this is part of why I'm really excited that you're

1063
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: the guest for this is the High Amendment. Is that

1064
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: the thing where like I know that like at least

1065
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: for a while, there was like only one abortion clinic

1066
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: in Kentucky and it was because you weren't allowed to

1067
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: have an abortion clinics hallways must be exactly and I'm

1068
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: making this number up thirty one inches wide, whereas a

1069
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: normal clinic has to have thirty three inch wide things.

1070
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: And so they would do the shit where you like,

1071
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: cannot have any a clinic that is anything other than

1072
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: an abortion clinic, which means that it is entirely financially

1073
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: it's just mistable and impossible.

1074
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it starts stripping things. Essentially, the High Amendment really

1075
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: took away the funding, so any public funding could not

1076
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: go into it. So if you had accessibility to so

1077
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: if you say, yes, we offer abortion care, then you're

1078
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: automatically stripped of it. You cannot get government funds okay, period.

1079
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 2: So any kind of like services that would take Medicaid

1080
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 2: amatic care, you cann't go to there and get abortion

1081
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 2: because that was restricted for government funds. So like it

1082
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: absolutely was a classist law, yeah.

1083
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: Which just continues the previous status quo where the rich

1084
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: have access to reproductive health in them and.

1085
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 2: It's so sneaky. It's so sneak because people don't know

1086
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: about it much like they really think they have access

1087
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: because it's a liberal state.

1088
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: But High Amendment, Yeah, reproductive care is so much more

1089
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: as you said reproductive cares so much more than abortion,

1090
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: and like a lot of it is also about like

1091
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 1: the ability to choose to have children, right.

1092
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: Right, people who have children. This is a high risk

1093
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 2: thing for many, many people, and they need that care.

1094
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: And there's a reason why people died in childbirth and

1095
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 2: it shouldn't have to be because there are advancements that

1096
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: can prevent that, but people can't afford that. Like that,

1097
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: that in itself is that conversation that we don't actually

1098
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 2: care about those who are giving birth, like to make

1099
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 2: sure they're healthy. That's not pro life.

1100
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally. God, the hypocrisy of all that stuff

1101
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: like can like keep me up at nights sometimes because

1102
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: I like, I try to have empathy with people I

1103
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: disagree with, and it short circuits my empathy because I

1104
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: can't understand it because it makes no fucking sense, right

1105
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: that you're like claiming to be you know, this one

1106
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: thing and then you just don't give a shit about

1107
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: people when they actually have children, and like, I don't

1108
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: know whatever.

1109
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,399
Speaker 2: I love that. That's why you quoted that doctor from

1110
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: what was the Kentucky Pennsylvania Well, yeah, that's the same.

1111
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding Pennsylvania, because just seeing their perspective, that

1112
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 2: is the true point of it, and this conversation of

1113
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: late term abortions, A majority of the people who are

1114
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: having late term abortions are not by choice. Typically they

1115
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: have been preparing for their child. And I know many

1116
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: of people who were anti choice for the longest time

1117
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 2: when they had to be put in that situation and understanding, oh,

1118
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 2: this is still technically an abortion, they may have different

1119
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 2: terms for it, realizing that, oh, and then costing thousands

1120
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: and thousands and thousands of dollars, putting their lives at risk.

1121
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 2: Coming back to being pro choice, realizing what this conversation

1122
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: of what these types of laws really hurt and who

1123
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: they really hurt, and how damaging it is. Because there's

1124
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 2: this mystic religious moral background that when order to demoralize

1125
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 2: and demonize those who even talk about it as an option.

1126
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the moral crusaders are just being used as useful

1127
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: idiots by people who want to do this other shit.

1128
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: And they like get people riled up into being like

1129
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: this is what is moral, and they're like okay, and

1130
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: you run off and go do the thing, and like

1131
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: that's not what the people controlling those people and give

1132
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: a shit about any of.

1133
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: That, right, this is not about that.

1134
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're just you're being used if you made

1135
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: it this far and you're you're a moral anti rant. Yeah,

1136
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: you're just being fucking used.

1137
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: You warned them in the first episode.

1138
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going a bit.

1139
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 2: We're on this length, so you know, they know, y'all,

1140
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 2: y'all know, right, But yes, thank you so much for

1141
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 2: bringing those because I love talking about the history. I

1142
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: definitely learned more because I was like, what what is that?

1143
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: Things I didn't want to know and things I didn't

1144
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 2: want to know, So thank you for giving me that blend.

1145
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, I was realizing. I was like,

1146
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: this is a thing that some people know a lot

1147
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: about and some people don't know about it all, And like,

1148
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm really excited that more and more information is coming

1149
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: forward and people are coming more and more aware about

1150
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: Jaine Collective and all of the people who've done this

1151
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: kind of work, because like, because we fucking need it,

1152
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: and and we've already said that a bunch of times

1153
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: on the show, but it just it feels worth repeating.

1154
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: Is that, like we need to know that we can

1155
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: like be brave and do the right thing, you know,

1156
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: and we need to know that the means by which

1157
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: to do it, do the right thing. We can have

1158
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 1: those means. We can figure that out right, you know,

1159
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: so can't give up. Yeah, well, well, thank you so

1160
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: much for coming on and being a guest.

1161
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I am a new best friend.

1162
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah well so many new best friends also because all

1163
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: the listeners. But I want to be more of the

1164
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: best friend than them.

1165
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: Any plugs at the end here, Like I said on

1166
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 2: the last episode, which I hope you listened to and

1167
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 2: you stayed around for the second part, I'm on stuff.

1168
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 2: Mom never told you a podcast with iHeartRadio. You can

1169
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 2: get it wherever you listen to your podcast. We are

1170
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:08,479
Speaker 2: on Instagram and on Twitter. We don't type. We don't type.

1171
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: Is that this is how old I am. We don't

1172
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 2: post a lot. I don't type things on there a lot,

1173
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 2: but we're there. We love getting messages. I am also

1174
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 2: on the social media's obviously not very good at it.

1175
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 2: On Instagram with McVeagh Sam and Twitter Sam McVeigh because

1176
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 2: that's how creative I am.

1177
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: And you can see pictures of her dog.

1178
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, that's pretty much all it is is pictures

1179
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 2: of my Dog. So if you like that, come on

1180
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: check it out and then we'll be back next week

1181
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 2: on Monday and Wednesday. All right, Margaret yay wherever.

1182
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: Talk to you all soon. Bye, everyone, buy listeners.

1183
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1184
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more po podcast from cool Zone Media,

1185
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 2: visit our website foolzonmedia dot com or check us out

1186
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1187
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 2: your podcasts.