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Speaker 1: I am Ben Silverman, Executive producer of the Office. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of The Office Deep Dive.

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Speaker 1: I am your host Brian Baumgartner. Today I am bringing

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Speaker 1: you someone truly special, and I mean special in the

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Speaker 1: best of ways. Ben Silverman. He is the person who

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Speaker 1: discovered the British version of the show. He approached Ricky

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Speaker 1: Gervais and Stephen Merchant about bringing the show to the

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Speaker 1: United States. He eventually partnered with Greg Daniels, who he

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Speaker 1: chose to adapt it. So Ben's role was crucial. More importantly,

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Speaker 1: I think he appeared in season nine as Jim's athlete

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Speaker 1: coworker Isaac, So I mean there was that too, um

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Speaker 1: all joking aside. Ben brings incredible insights into the business

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Speaker 1: side of things, the biz, if you will, and he

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Speaker 1: has amazing stories about the fights that we're going on

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Speaker 1: with the network behind the scenes, while the rest of

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Speaker 1: us were just acting like idiots on set. Anyhow, Ben

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Speaker 1: has become such a dear friend to me, and even

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Speaker 1: after all of these years, I still learn so much

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Speaker 1: every time I talked to him. I am sure that

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Speaker 1: you will as well. So here he is Ben Silverman,

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Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak I love it. Bubble and squeakan bubble

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Speaker 1: and squeaker cookie every month, left over from the nut before.

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Speaker 1: Ye Heyboddy, I don't sound very good. I think you

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Speaker 1: sound really sexy. Oh God, listen to you. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good, great to see you. Let me kiss. How's

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Speaker 1: your locks? Just get a little locks and some onion

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Speaker 1: and I'm good. I can practically tasting it over here.

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Speaker 1: I'll take one more, but then we'll start your volumes

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Speaker 1: on the left. Is everyone ready for us in the back? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And the only reason we haven't already begun the interview

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Speaker 1: in a casual fashion it's because you were eating a bagel.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that. All right, I'm about to start.

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Speaker 1: Let me chew it out. I mean, it was fun

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Speaker 1: to go back because as well as we know each other,

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Speaker 1: there's so much of your like PREMI history, Like I

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Speaker 1: think that your life didn't start until you met me,

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Speaker 1: but you actually did things before, you know, before I

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Speaker 1: came into your life. So you were the youngest division

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Speaker 1: head in charge of international packaging at William Morris. That

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Speaker 1: makes you, like, what twelve years old at the time,

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Speaker 1: I was twenty five years old, and I got named

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Speaker 1: into that position and around twenty seven or twenty eight

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Speaker 1: and was in London working for William Morris four years

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Speaker 1: from I left there in ninety nine to go to

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Speaker 1: New York. Okay, so then you're in New York. How

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Speaker 1: did you discover the UK version of the Office. I

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Speaker 1: was at my friend Henrietta Conrad's house. I was not

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Speaker 1: an agent. I had left being an agent where I

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Speaker 1: had found everything from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?

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Speaker 1: To Cracker Queer as Folk and had translated them into

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Speaker 1: America as the packaging agent. And I left back by

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Speaker 1: Barry Diller to start my own company called REVELI and

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Speaker 1: I had just begun Revenly and went over to London

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Speaker 1: for a work trip and was staying at my friend

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Speaker 1: Henrietta Conrad's house, and we were watching television and I

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Speaker 1: was literally, I think, flipping the channels and I came

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Speaker 1: on to the Office. This is episode one or two

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Speaker 1: of the UK season one Office, and I was watching

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Speaker 1: at first wondering if it was for comedy or for real,

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Speaker 1: then quickly recognized what it was doing, single camera, no

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Speaker 1: laugh track, fo documentary with people who felt real. And

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Speaker 1: I kept watching and started laughing and it's really hard

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Speaker 1: to make me laugh. And I was falling in love

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Speaker 1: with it show right in that moment, and then I

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Speaker 1: started thinking about it the next day in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and I asked Henrietta if she knew Ricky Gervais and

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Speaker 1: she said no, but her friend Dan Maser did, and

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Speaker 1: we organized and had dinner with Dan that night. Wait, so,

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours after you after you see it for

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Speaker 1: the first time on television, you're having dinner with someone

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Speaker 1: who could get you to Ricky. Yes. And additionally I

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Speaker 1: also wanted to be with Dan. I mean, Dan was

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Speaker 1: Sasha Baron Cohen's partner, and Lag was on television, was

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Speaker 1: here in the UK. But so I'm with Dan Maser.

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Speaker 1: Dan is lovely, brilliant and of his own right, and

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Speaker 1: I start peppering the questions about the office and he

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Speaker 1: gives me Ricky's cell phone number. And so the next

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Speaker 1: day I call Ricky around eleven o'clock in the morning

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Speaker 1: and introduced myself on the phone and say I'd love

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Speaker 1: to meet you. Are you in town? He goes, actually, yes,

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Speaker 1: come meet me in Soho at the Starbucks this afternoon,

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Speaker 1: and I coordinate a meeting and I spent an hour

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Speaker 1: with Ricky talking about the Office, and very quickly we

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Speaker 1: got along because we both love television, and he truly

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Speaker 1: was making me laugh even in those moments over over

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Speaker 1: the coffee at the Starbucks. And so he clearly had

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Speaker 1: chosen the location though of the Starbucks, because he then

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Speaker 1: says to me, Oh, good news, my agent is right

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Speaker 1: around the corner. Let's go meet with him. So it

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Speaker 1: was almost like he met me confirmed I was okay.

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Speaker 1: The conversation was interesting, and then we walked over and

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Speaker 1: met with Duncan Hayes, his agent, and then Duncan and

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Speaker 1: I began a three month process two secure the rights.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until Duncan help me unlock it all

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Speaker 1: that I realized both the BBC and Ricky controlled the rights.

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Speaker 1: I needed Ricky and Stephen Merchant to actually get it

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Speaker 1: done and agitate to get it done, otherwise it was

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Speaker 1: never going to get done. It. So you you deal

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Speaker 1: with the BBC, and you deal with Ricky and Stephen.

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Speaker 1: You have this partnership in place, and where do you

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Speaker 1: go into the United States. I immediately start making phone

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Speaker 1: calls and saying, are you aware of the show The Office?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what it is? Do you think it

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Speaker 1: would interest you? And this is probably now a month

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Speaker 1: after or so, and the show has started to gain buzz.

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Speaker 1: It's aired its cycle in the UK, it's initial six episodes,

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Speaker 1: and so it has an awareness. Now it's a thing,

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Speaker 1: not a big thing, but to anyone in England it's

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Speaker 1: in the television industry, you're aware. So I'm I'm back

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Speaker 1: at the States reaching out to people. One of the

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Speaker 1: incredible things about Hollywood, which was a huge advantage for

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Speaker 1: me to do well, was that people in Hollywood are

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Speaker 1: pretty insular and don't like to travel. They think you

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Speaker 1: need a passport to get from Burbank to Beverly Hills.

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Speaker 1: That is travel. And so many people at this time

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Speaker 1: in American television had no clue or connection about anything

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Speaker 1: beyond l A. And only one exact at the time

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Speaker 1: knew what I was talking about was a guy named

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Speaker 1: Nick Grad who worked at f X, and he knew

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Speaker 1: what the show was and he loved the show. Kevin

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Speaker 1: Riley was running X at the time. I had gone

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Speaker 1: to Less Moonvest he passed. I went to gayl Berman,

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Speaker 1: she passed. Immediately. Didn't get it. HBO said we'll never

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Speaker 1: do a remake. They clearly have altered that thinking, but

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Speaker 1: at the time they were like, we won't do a format,

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Speaker 1: and Showtime wasn't doing shows like this. I didn't go

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Speaker 1: to ABC because I just knew it wasn't ABC. And

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Speaker 1: I was starting to tease NBC with it, and Kevin

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Speaker 1: then got named the head of NBC and I bring

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Speaker 1: it up to him and I say, would you want

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Speaker 1: to do it here? And Kevin says absolutely. Little did

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Speaker 1: he know he was actually my only buyer by that time,

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Speaker 1: he was the only one everyone else of television. Everyone

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Speaker 1: else had passed, now are you? And Kevin's like, let's

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Speaker 1: do it, like, let's let's make it. You know, I'll

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Speaker 1: give you a pilot movement. And then Kevin's boss, though,

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Speaker 1: who was very involved in his life, Jeff Zucker, didn't

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Speaker 1: really like it that much because it was a single camera,

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Speaker 1: no last documentary. I got it like it was a

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Speaker 1: hard pill for them to swallow. But I was also like,

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Speaker 1: they didn't want the game show back in primetime. When

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Speaker 1: I brought Millionaire, everyone thought that was cheesy Daytime. I'm like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: this will change TV. You know, you gotta look at

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Speaker 1: it from how to push the genre and push the

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Speaker 1: envelope so that you can expand versus you know, always

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Speaker 1: play for defense, right, And I was like, this is

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Speaker 1: another level and this is potentially transformative of television and

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Speaker 1: with that can come great reward. You saw that at

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Speaker 1: the time that it could be transformative, Yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have those moments. At that moment, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like everything was possible, Like I really saw the transformation

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Speaker 1: of television before it was happening. Wow. Okay, So you

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Speaker 1: get a pilot commitment from Kevin at NBC. So now

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Speaker 1: you have to put a creative team together. So where

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Speaker 1: do you start looking at that moment? So William Morris

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Speaker 1: represented the BBC because I had signed the BBC to

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Speaker 1: William Morris of course when I was there, of course

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Speaker 1: as an agent before I became a producer, and I

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Speaker 1: had done the deal with them, so they were part

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Speaker 1: of the package, so to speak. But they didn't really

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Speaker 1: have many good writers for the show at that at

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Speaker 1: the time. Ari Emmanuel had the good writers. So I

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Speaker 1: called him up and they said, Ari, I have the office.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible. I will we meet with your guys. But

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Speaker 1: when you set me up with your best guys, I

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Speaker 1: have to organize for Ricky and Stephen some meetings for

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Speaker 1: them to help determine who we're all going to partner

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Speaker 1: with and choose. And Ari was like, absolutely, let's do it,

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Speaker 1: you know, and he set me up with a number

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Speaker 1: of meetings, and I immediately connected with Greg. You know,

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Speaker 1: I just felt his genius and his thoughtfulness and real

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Speaker 1: rigorous approach. And he also was so anxious about doing it.

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Speaker 1: He kept saying to me, well, people love the British one,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I can't make it better, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm I don't want to be compared to it. And

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Speaker 1: I had done a show just had aired while I

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Speaker 1: was working on this, called Coupling, which was an adaptation

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Speaker 1: of a British show much more in the kind of

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Speaker 1: Friends vernacular. It was almost as if Friends had been

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Speaker 1: adapted adapted to the UK. Yeah, exactly, And that show

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Speaker 1: had been perceived really poorly in America, and Greg was

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Speaker 1: worried that was going to happen, and all the comparisons,

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Speaker 1: so the halo of Coupling's failure was impinging his ability

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Speaker 1: to kind of wrap his arms around the office, and

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Speaker 1: the preconceived notion of everyone's saying, why would you adapt

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Speaker 1: that it's hallowed ground, etcetera, etcetera. So then I go

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Speaker 1: to having to defend wanting to remake this great work.

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Speaker 1: And I was explaining to Greg because he was who

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Speaker 1: I now really wanted to do it, and he suddenly

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Speaker 1: was getting some cold feet based on the concern of

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Speaker 1: adapting something so so now like critically beloved. And I said,

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Speaker 1: no one in America has seen this one. It's too dark,

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Speaker 1: too narrow, and not gonna play to a wide American

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Speaker 1: audience unless we do a more optimistic adaptation, informed by

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Speaker 1: your vision and your ownership of the world. And there

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Speaker 1: are millions of great books that are adapted all the time.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to adapt the worst piece of ship?

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Speaker 1: Are you trying to adapt a Pulitzer Prize winning novel?

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Speaker 1: And the correlation between a da Vinci code and a

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Speaker 1: da Vinci code is much higher then not, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so having you like explain the history of expanding

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Speaker 1: I p that was successful was rather frustrating, and I

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Speaker 1: kind of was thrown by today. Now everyone if something's great,

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Speaker 1: they want to remake it. You know, it's totally different.

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Speaker 1: So I go through all this work, and not only that,

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Speaker 1: I then I have Ricky and Stephen come over to

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Speaker 1: l A to my office on the universal lot of

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Speaker 1: the time in our little bungalows, and I have them

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Speaker 1: in the office and we're going through the meetings and

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Speaker 1: at the end they they're like, yes, you know, Greg

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Speaker 1: Daniels is great. And then from there I then have

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Speaker 1: to get NBC to sign off, and Kevin says, has

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Speaker 1: Greg done any live action stuff? You know, he's great

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Speaker 1: in animation, but who else he got? And I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of like, well, he's who we got. He's really good,

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Speaker 1: and Ricky and Stephen like, and so Kevin said, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's meet and talk and immediately understood and connected with

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Speaker 1: Greg on him adapting it. And then within that meeting

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Speaker 1: even it immediately turns to casting because that is such

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Speaker 1: a key sitting across from the beloved Kevin Um, that

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Speaker 1: is such a he to this show's architecture, which also,

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Speaker 1: I mean, telling the story just reminds you how many

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Speaker 1: millions of elements have to come together to create any

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Speaker 1: thing meaningful or successful. Right? So who who Who's discussed

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Speaker 1: in that meeting? Me right, it's all about Brian Baumgartner. Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, now, So in in the meeting, we're just

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Speaker 1: talking about archetypes and whether we cast famous people or

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Speaker 1: unknowns to play with the faux documentary. Did you have

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Speaker 1: an opinion about keeping the integrity? I just wanted it right,

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Speaker 1: but I knew that the characters and who we cast

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Speaker 1: had to be real and not too pretty. And that

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Speaker 1: was another leap of faith from the broadcast network, because

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Speaker 1: everything at the time was friends, right, everybody looked a

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Speaker 1: certain way. It was not just friends. It was friends

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Speaker 1: and bay Watch. It was like it was friends and

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Speaker 1: it was friends and bathing suits. That was like, that

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Speaker 1: was the landscape of TV be in that moment and

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Speaker 1: heading on a town where spiral of beauty and superficiality

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Speaker 1: at that time, and so talking about those actors, we

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Speaker 1: immediately brought on Alison Jones to be our casting partner.

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Speaker 1: We loved what she had done. And Judd Apatao and

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Speaker 1: his world and model was kind of the one other

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Speaker 1: framework we were looking at as we were building out

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Speaker 1: the show, and the actors he was casting and the

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Speaker 1: stories he was writing and the comedy he was creating

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Speaker 1: had a similar energy and feel and a sense of discovery.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that we talked about with Kevin and

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Speaker 1: that Greg agreed with me on is one of the

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Speaker 1: things that television used to do incredibly well and still

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Speaker 1: does do, but less people give it the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: is create stars. It's a place you have someone in

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Speaker 1: your living room or in your bedroom, and you're watching

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Speaker 1: and connecting with them every week, and you can fall

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Speaker 1: in love with them and in a way you want

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Speaker 1: to have discovered them. It's not just a movie idol

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Speaker 1: coming into your kitchen. There's like this sense of ownership.

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Speaker 1: I see it when I walk around with you. Obviously

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Speaker 1: your characters beloved, Brian, but you know, the way people

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Speaker 1: treat a television star who's kind of grown up with

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Speaker 1: them is so familial, totally and natural. So that was

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Speaker 1: part of what also was the pitch to the office,

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Speaker 1: like we can create those stars here, right because it's

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Speaker 1: it is different than, you know, than film stars, because

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Speaker 1: people are watching you in their bedrooms. They're watching you,

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Speaker 1: they're they're not high on a huge billboard. Absolutely, Um,

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Speaker 1: what do you remember about the casting? So so we

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Speaker 1: brought on Alison Jones and we opened up in our bungalow,

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Speaker 1: turned our conference room into a casting room, and we

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Speaker 1: began that process. Our immediate shortlist for the actor lad

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Speaker 1: and lobby by him was Bob oden Kirk to play

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Speaker 1: the Michael Scott character. And we were into him for it.

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Speaker 1: It was a real thing, but we weren't fully there.

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Speaker 1: And then we started casting. We and we found started

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Speaker 1: collecting talent. Krasinski. We found it on a tape out

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Speaker 1: of New York. I think he had literally just graduated

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Speaker 1: Brown and characters like yours and your arrival into the show,

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Speaker 1: and Fullness and Leslie and you know, all these wonderful

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Speaker 1: character actors, Craig Robinson, you know, just all these brilliant people.

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Speaker 1: And obviously there's Jenna Fisher. Jenna had such a accessible

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Speaker 1: sweetness and sadness to her. And I think of it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how old she was at

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Speaker 1: the time or John, but they felt like children, you know,

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Speaker 1: they felt like kids. I was a kid, but they

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Speaker 1: were younger than me. I mean I was only thirty

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Speaker 1: at the time and they must have been twenty, you know,

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Speaker 1: so it was like, really you really felt all this

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Speaker 1: innocence and warmth and life coming through them. And then

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Speaker 1: obviously we all grew up together. Okay, so we we

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Speaker 1: still don't have We still don't have Michael Scott. I

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Speaker 1: am panicking and I get a call from Stacy Snyder,

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Speaker 1: who was head of Universal Pictures at the time. And

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Speaker 1: Stacy calls me up on the lot and says, Ben,

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Speaker 1: I love the Office and she always would talk to

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Speaker 1: me about it. It's so brilliant, it's so awesome. And

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Speaker 1: she said that she absolutely loved it. And she had

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Speaker 1: an idea for me. What about Steve Carrell four the lead?

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Speaker 1: And she said, have you seen Bruce Almighty? Watch him

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Speaker 1: be the anchor in and do this fifteen minute thing

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Speaker 1: during the show. It is the most brilliant comedic tour

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Speaker 1: diforce I've seen. And we're developing a movie for him,

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Speaker 1: forty year old virgin and I think he's going to

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Speaker 1: be a major star. I had seen Bruce Almighty, it

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Speaker 1: was great. I knew exactly what she was talking about.

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Speaker 1: So I start to educate Greg and Greg goes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I know Steve Carell. He's on TV, he's got he's

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Speaker 1: got a series Come to Papa, which he was like

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Speaker 1: the fourth lead of a short lived NBC sitcom. And

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Speaker 1: I call Kevin Riley and I'm like, you've got this

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Speaker 1: guy in your show, But he has to be our guy,

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Speaker 1: and he goes, you didn't hear from me, but I

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Speaker 1: don't think I'm to Papa will come back. But I

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Speaker 1: can't tell anyone. So he told you that at the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he basically let me know, but no one else kind

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Speaker 1: of knew. It was only like Kevin and I who knew.

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Speaker 1: And it was very stressful, unbelievable. So how did you

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Speaker 1: decide on Ken Kappas? So Ken forget who recommended him

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Speaker 1: to us, But he had done the Bernie Bernie Mac

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Speaker 1: show and in the Middle. He had a good reputation

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Speaker 1: and Malcolm in the Middle had a lot of the

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Speaker 1: energy stylistically we were going forward, but I still was

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Speaker 1: worried that we didn't have enough of the reality show

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Speaker 1: architecture and how we were going to produce it. And

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Speaker 1: so I introduced Greg to Randall Einhorn because Randall he

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Speaker 1: had come out of Mark Burnett's camp, and I had

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Speaker 1: hired him for other shows or worked with him on

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Speaker 1: on other reality shows, and I knew we needed somebody

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Speaker 1: from that world stylistically to shoot in that way, but

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Speaker 1: also so that we wouldn't set everything up as slowly

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Speaker 1: as traditional scripted comedy was produced, and Randal ended up

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Speaker 1: staying with us for five years. Five years, but he

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Speaker 1: helped four jar style and it was an essential element.

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Speaker 1: So putting together Greg Daniels, can co office, Randoline Horn,

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Speaker 1: getting bad cast together, and now we got to shoot

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Speaker 1: a pilot. How much of the pilot were you around?

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Speaker 1: I was around for the whole pilot, right. What do

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Speaker 1: you any anything specifically you remember about the shooting of

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Speaker 1: that Once the team was a ssembled, I remember finding

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Speaker 1: elements of it really funny and believing wholeheartedly in the cast.

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Speaker 1: I think the storyline we chose ended up being not

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Speaker 1: necessarily the best one to set it up. All I remember, Visavi.

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Speaker 1: The decision to go with the underlying pilot script is

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Speaker 1: we had spent so much time with Ricky and Stephen,

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Speaker 1: and had studied with them in the UK at the

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Speaker 1: Groucho Club for two days. Because I remember us going

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Speaker 1: over and and spending time with them as they downloaded

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Speaker 1: this about all things British Office. We not only fell

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Speaker 1: in love with them, we fell in love with the

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Speaker 1: British show. So I think we thought it's brilliant. Let's

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Speaker 1: stick with that brilliance, and that was our initial feeling

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Speaker 1: was to respect the underlying almost too much and not

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Speaker 1: allow our ability to breathe the air into it we

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Speaker 1: needed to do for the amount con adaptation maybe, but

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Speaker 1: I think ultimately every pilot has its problems, right because

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Speaker 1: you're trying to set up so much. But what that

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Speaker 1: pilot did was set up that a documentary crew is

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Speaker 1: coming in to film the employees at this paper company,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately, in order to start there and to end

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Speaker 1: where we did with the documentary coming out and everybody

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Speaker 1: seeing themselves on camera having been followed for nine years,

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Speaker 1: it had to start there. Now. How it was written

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Speaker 1: or if it, you know, directly translated from from the

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Speaker 1: British version, I don't know, but don't you think that's important.

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Speaker 1: I like a set up. I think cinematically most movies

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Speaker 1: you get the bill to get to the finale. In

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Speaker 1: television there's always a debate do you enter a series

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Speaker 1: midswing or do you started off with a inception story?

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Speaker 1: And so I agree with you in that setup, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like we could have open in a little

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Speaker 1: bit more of what is specific to Scranton in America

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Speaker 1: and to those characters. If you end up discovering what

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Speaker 1: the actors enjoy play too, and become as you know

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Speaker 1: them over nine years and two d plus episodes, and

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Speaker 1: so the writing becomes easier and better, and the performances

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Speaker 1: become more in tune and character based, and that takes time,

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Speaker 1: and it's part of what's great about the new wave

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Speaker 1: of television is the straight two series and putting them

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Speaker 1: all out so that they have a chance to breathe

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Speaker 1: and be discovered. At that time, you didn't have that luxury.

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Speaker 1: This was a day and time when the heads of

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Speaker 1: the networks read the ratings at like four in the

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Speaker 1: morning of what happened the night before, and I had

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Speaker 1: a phone number in my phone as an actor, and

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Speaker 1: I would give the weekly reports on Friday morning at

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Speaker 1: like eight am. I would be in the makeup trailer

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Speaker 1: going okay, four point seven last night, guys, And that

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Speaker 1: put this blah blah blah exactly exactly that process, and

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Speaker 1: that was reactive programming. Decisions were definitely fear invoking. And

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Speaker 1: then we launched the show. When we finally got a

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Speaker 1: series picked up off the pilot, it was for five

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Speaker 1: more episodes. It's crazy what we got a six episode

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Speaker 1: run that didn't happen that is total We're only doing

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Speaker 1: this because you're torturing us to do it. That is

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Speaker 1: not we We wholeheartedly believe in your show. But they

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Speaker 1: then put us on after the Apprentice, which was very strange.

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Speaker 1: At the time. We aired later than normal because they

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Speaker 1: thought the Apprentice, set in a workplace environment, was like

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Speaker 1: the right match for the show. Did you agree. I

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Speaker 1: like that the Apprentice had a larger circulation of audience,

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Speaker 1: and The Apprentice, actually, like all of NBC shows, had

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Speaker 1: a slightly higher concentration of urban dwelling fans. It was

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Speaker 1: always the history of NBC versus like the history of CBS,

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Speaker 1: which had been traditionally a little more role, which is

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Speaker 1: probably why you got Dukes of Hazzard on one and

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Speaker 1: Hell Street Blues on the other, which only reinforced it.

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Speaker 1: But I kind of thought The Apprentice maybe was a

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Speaker 1: good leading because there wasn't a lot else on the

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Speaker 1: network to draw from. So we launched out of that

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Speaker 1: and we did well in the beginning, but then we

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Speaker 1: started to go down every week for the whole six

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Speaker 1: episode run. Okay, so going back a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: we shoot the pilot. You know, what was going on

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes from your perspective and dealing with a

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Speaker 1: network to try to get a pick up for the show. Well,

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Speaker 1: I I was doing everything I could to get it

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Speaker 1: picked up, and I was begging, borrowing, and stealing and

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Speaker 1: literally walking the hallways of NBC cajoling any executive there

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Speaker 1: to support the show. And I'm getting resistance. I'm getting

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Speaker 1: it's a small show, it's a quirky show, attested horribly,

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Speaker 1: and I'm able to get some creative help. I work

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Speaker 1: with a guy named Bill Carter who's at the New

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Speaker 1: York Times, and Bill and I had grown to know

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Speaker 1: each other and he had featured me in a couple

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Speaker 1: other spots, and he was a fan of the office

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Speaker 1: and was aware very early on that I was working

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Speaker 1: on it, and I was personally excited about it, and

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Speaker 1: I knew he liked it, and so he became somebody

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Speaker 1: inside the press corps who was willing to champion it.

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Speaker 1: And that became a valuable asset for us as we

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Speaker 1: went about trying to get this quirky comedy, this unique

430
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: peace picked up. So how did you find out that

431
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: NBC was going to order more show? So I get

432
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: an invitation from my friend David Bennie off the co

433
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: creator Game of Thrones George Martin and Dan Ice, and

434
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: he has written Troy, the Brad Pitt starring film Eric Bannah.

435
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and Troy is going to premiere at the

436
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: can Film Festival, and would I want to be his

437
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: guest because his wife, now Amanda Pete girlfriend I believe

438
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: at the time maybe you have girlfriend at the time,

439
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: is unable to attend with him. And I immediately say,

440
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: of course, and I am so excited about it. And

441
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: then he adds another element, which is and then from

442
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: there we're going to go to the premier in Tokyo,

443
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: where I've never been. After we pick up Brad Pitt

444
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: in Amsterdam where he's shooting one of the first Oceans movies.

445
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: So we're on this giant plane with Eric Banna and

446
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and Wolfgang Peterson and Dave and I are

447
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: just like watching Brad sleep like we're not even you know,

448
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 1: just like looking to breathe. You know, we're totally movie

449
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: star stupid ide And I remember we land in Siberia.

450
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: You cannot make this up. Land in Siberia. I remember

451
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: getting off the plane and just a layover up to

452
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: get gas because it's such a long trip from Amsterdam

453
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: to Tokyo. And as we get off, I'm literally looking

454
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: at a guy with a collection a cough in a

455
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 1: in a fur hat and a red star on it.

456
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: And in Mother's Siberia and my phone works, and I'm

457
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: checking in and I'm looking down and I have like

458
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: a bazillion messages and I reached them and they say

459
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: we will pick up the show, but we're only picking

460
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: up five more. Wow. And we got our five episodes

461
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: pick up on top of the one episode we'd already

462
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: made for you know, probably the lowest price in the

463
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: in that time, in the history of modern TV. That's unbelievable.

464
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: One other thing you spoke earlier about you felt the

465
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: show was transformative, you know, to share with you my

466
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: experience of shooting the second episode we ever did, Diversity Day,

467
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: and being in that room and saying, if America gives

468
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: this show a chance, we could do something really special. Yeah,

469
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: now we You're absolutely right in Diversity Day is still

470
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: one of my favorite episodes of TV. Let alone in

471
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: the office and is so funny and dangerous and different

472
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: in real and in a non PC way. It was

473
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: just laugh out loud funny. It was undeniable exactly. And

474
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: that's you know, all of the sort of issue episodes

475
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: where we tackle healthcare in a culture of no gay

476
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: marriage and don't ask, don't tell, we do gay witch

477
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: hunt Like I'm just so incredibly proud of that legacy

478
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: for our show. Oh absolutely. And the smartest guy in

479
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: the office ran the house. And I always loved that

480
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: dynamic of Darryl and Michael because you knew Darryl should

481
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: be running that office if he wanted to. And it

482
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: was so important to me to have that in the

483
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: show because that's America. And I feel like the show,

484
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: through comedy, really pushed all of that around. And I

485
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: have cared super deeply about all of that my entire

486
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: life as the son of a gay woman and grandson

487
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: of a civil rights activist and union organizer, specifically the

488
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: Pullman Porters Union. A Philip Randolph and my grandfather, Max

489
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,719
Speaker 1: Nelson built up the Pullman Porters Union, the first black

490
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: labor union in it in America, and we looked at

491
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 1: Archie Bunker as the parallel, and we're informed by Archie

492
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: Bunker's bad behavior and all of the family and what

493
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: it did to open up doors for people like George

494
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: Jefferson in television land and that meat had relationship and

495
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: everything that was within that we were now doing in

496
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: the workplace. That's amazing. So we've talked about the pilot.

497
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: We finished season one, we finished a whopping six episodes,

498
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: and then we wait for the upfront. What did you

499
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: think about our chances to be picked up? I was

500
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: incredibly hopeful and obviously passionate about the prospects of the show,

501
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: but it was still not by any means a sure thing.

502
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: And if anything, there was a sense among the senior

503
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: management and a lot of the more tradition sationalists that

504
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: jeff no, but just in general like it's it was

505
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: more institutional rejection, like because there were people in the

506
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: marketing department, the promo department, like they didn't understand it.

507
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: How do we market it? How do we promo it?

508
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: How do we sell is it? Is it a documentary?

509
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: Is it a reality show? And no one was a star.

510
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: There was no star at that point, so there were

511
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 1: a lot of challenges to its second season happening. And

512
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: were you having to fight, like were you going into

513
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: NBC and and fighting to get that second season or

514
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: was it more you were just waiting to see what happened.

515
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: There was a beyond fight. And I do remember going

516
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: into Jeff's office with the nod Day brothers, who we're

517
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: going to be making the nine eleven documentary, and I

518
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: used that meeting to also push for the office. And

519
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: I remember in the Nowadays can tell You we had

520
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: a good meeting, and then I brought up that they

521
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: had to pick up the show, like it had to happen.

522
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: It was too good. They please pick up the second season.

523
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: You have to do this, and from that I was

524
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: thrown out of his office. But I remember being called

525
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: and I looked down on my phone and I get

526
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: a phone call and says, we will pick up not

527
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: twenty two episodes for next season. We're only picking up

528
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: six and you have to make it for half the price.

529
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: And I needed everyone to take less money on these episodes.

530
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: And so I remember my first call was to Ricky

531
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: and Stephen because I thought they would say fuck you,

532
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: like I you know, we like. But I was like,

533
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: we have a chance to do this, and everyone said yes. Wow.

534
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: Now when did you make the deal with Apple to

535
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: get the show on iTunes? The Apple It was made

536
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,479
Speaker 1: by NBC right at the beginning of Apple with Eddie

537
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: Q and the team and Apple, and they came to

538
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: us about it and we just said, yes, please. Well,

539
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: we didn't expect would be that Apple would then educate

540
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: a whole new audience but also market to us. They

541
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: got behind the show. They kind of treated it as

542
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 1: their own and they also then began rolling out later

543
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: their own stores, and we were the poster set. For music,

544
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: it was YouTube, and for entertainment video it was The Office.

545
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: I remember walking into Apple stores and seeing the Office

546
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,479
Speaker 1: on billboards before really we were a big hit and

547
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: and going like, wow, this is awesome. Apple treated us

548
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: better than our network and maybe better than we deserved

549
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: at that moment, but they saw something in the show too.

550
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: Apple totally embraced the show and they loved it, and

551
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 1: Eddie Q loved the show. You know, they actually liked

552
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: the show, and we did a trade out with Apple.

553
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: We did a whole episode, the Christmas episode, which is

554
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: one of the great episodes of the Office and one

555
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: of my favorite favorite episodes, and the trading of the

556
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: iPod it was incredible and that was a huge thing

557
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: for them, and they didn't pay for it, but it

558
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: was like the connectivity, and then they ended up giving

559
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: us all the computers and kind of investing in the

560
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: show as well as an advertiser and supporter. And then

561
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: they did the iTunes thing, so they were always leaning

562
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: in and so it really had that fun give and take.

563
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: So then the end of season two, moving into season three,

564
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: we're nominated for a slew of Emmy's and when the

565
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: Best Comedy Emmy, what what did that? What did that

566
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: mean for you and your feelings about what the show

567
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: could be from the from the beginning, it was the greatest.

568
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: It truly was, and the Emmys at that time were

569
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: even bigger than they are now. And it was just

570
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: an amazing, amazing night. It was a celebration for all

571
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: of us and everyone involved. We were so joyous, we

572
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: were so young, we were so happy, and it was

573
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: a dream come true on every level. I remember holding

574
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: that trophy on that stage and I don't think I

575
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: let go of it for the entire night. And now

576
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: I would think, oh, it's not it's so material in

577
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: a way, but at the time it just was so

578
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: we made it, Like mom, we made it. Yeah, that's great.

579
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: The business model of TV you talked about because you

580
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: believed in the show, doing the show for less and

581
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: trying to find a way. How did that change? How

582
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: did the business change? Once the show became successful, it

583
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: became a darling of the network and important, and through

584
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: that not beyond important. It was still not at the

585
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: level of other hits in the history of broadcast comedy.

586
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: Its ratings were good, but they wasn't the number one

587
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: show on TV ever, But there was really nothing they

588
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't do to support it. And Universal also was building

589
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: a relationship on the movie side with Krell and other

590
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: actors in the series, and they worked with us to

591
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: accommodate everyone's schedules, their desires to make movies and how

592
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: that would impact budget and where they would find the

593
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: money for the show. But the show in and of

594
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: itself never spiraled out of control costwise. It was a

595
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: very contained show in its invention. We were never going

596
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: to blow up a building. What we did do is

597
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: we opened up our storytelling and we started to do

598
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: We started to exit the building a lot more. Right,

599
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 1: What was the logic behind doing the hour long episodes?

600
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: Why were we doing those? Well? The show had a

601
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: cinematic story telling feel, if not look, which was based on,

602
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, a real narrative satisfaction in every episode, and

603
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: within that we could use more time to tell more story.

604
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: And we also had so many characters who could be

605
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: utilized across that length of time. But I think the

606
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: main reason was we were the number one show in

607
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,479
Speaker 1: the network, and if they could have had nineteen hours

608
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: of it, they would have had nineteen hours of it,

609
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: let alone one hour of it. And clearly the show

610
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: uniquely was both drama and comedy. It was part soap opera,

611
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: you know, workplace soap opera with all these characters, part

612
00:41:48,920 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: drama with the emotional depth, and then obvious celerity and comedy.

613
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: So in May of two thousand seven, year named co

614
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: chairman of NBC, Why why did you take that job?

615
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: I thought it would be a fantasy to run a

616
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: network as it had been five years earlier when my mentor,

617
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: Brandon Tartakoff had had the job, and I really did

618
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: see where the business was going, and believe I knew

619
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: how to turn this ship for the future, because it

620
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: was obvious to me that the future was coming hard

621
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: and fast, and technology was going to enable an absolute

622
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: transformation of how people consumed content. And I was eager

623
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: to lead that transformation. I was rudely awakened to the

624
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: reality that no one wanted to change the status quo

625
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: because have been working so well for so many of

626
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: the people who were part of it, And there was

627
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: real fear in the decisions I was making. What do

628
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: you mean you'll go straight to series and an idea?

629
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: How could you shoot something overseas? How could you do

630
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: a game show here? How could you do shows that

631
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: are multiple days in a row. What was particularly challenging

632
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: was having to disconnect from the Office, my beloved show

633
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: and The Biggest Loser, my other creation on the network

634
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: at the time, and not be able to connect in

635
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: this as deeply as I wanted because of a perceived

636
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: conflict of interest. And I kept saying, those are the

637
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: only reasons I got hired, along with Ugly Betty and Tutors,

638
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: and how I was able to bring them in and

639
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: grow the two biggest nights on the air by far.

640
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: We're from the two projects that I had on the network.

641
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: Being chairman of NBC. Was that a dream of yours

642
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: from your childhood? Yeah? I always had wanted to run

643
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: NBC specifically, it was a network I had grown up

644
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: watching I love Cheers, Hill Street, Blues st Elsewhere. I

645
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: love the idea of Dirty Rock. I didn't realize that

646
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: I would have to basically just service the corporate part

647
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: of it, because that was the only way that we

648
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: could keep it moving without real pressure, and it took

649
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: me away from the part I love, which was the

650
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: creative part. But we I was still able to green

651
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: light parks and recreation and community and all these wonderful shows,

652
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: and do as good at work as I could, and

653
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: break down walls like make deals with windows with direct TV,

654
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: and do the straight to series and bring an advertise,

655
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: do everything needed to keep it profitable and running, but

656
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: without the momentum of being able to choose all my

657
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: own content because the strike happened, so I couldn't get

658
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: any development going, which was such a bummer because that's

659
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: the only fun part of running that job. And so

660
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: then you're in that job and not even able to

661
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: do anything truly creatively lead. Everything has to be kind

662
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: of engineered, and so it takes a lot of the

663
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: fun way and all of that together, plus the entrenchment

664
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: at the time of the rest of the system. I

665
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: learned in that moment it's not always best to be

666
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: first at doing something. You might want to wait for

667
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: someone else to do it, and then you can do

668
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: it second and learn or have the constituents or the

669
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: entrenched be a little more tenderized for the moment. Right,

670
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: Um Parks and Rock You Green Let in April two

671
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: thousand nine. Now, it was this show from Greg and

672
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: Mike Sure was originally planned to be a spin off, right, Yes,

673
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: we were talking about having Amy Poehler and potentially her

674
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: husband at the time will our Net be seeded into

675
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: the show to do a family like spinoff, and then

676
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: Mike Shure came up with the dig out of that,

677
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 1: which was set in that world of small town politics.

678
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: And I had made an overall deal with Amy Poehler,

679
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: who I was pursuing to be part of the office originally,

680
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: but then she leaned in and went into that and

681
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,959
Speaker 1: Greg helped realize it and partner with it with Mike

682
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: got it. Were you concerned about Greg that he was

683
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: going to be too split? Were you concerned about that?

684
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: I felt like Greg had built a bench on the

685
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: office that included people like Mike Sure who wanted to

686
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: go create their own shows and to keep connected to

687
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: that and at the time running the network to keep

688
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: those talented people connected to the network. It was really

689
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: good and valuable. And I wish we could have converted

690
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: the Office like Dick Wolfe converted Law and Order and

691
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: been the whole night of comedy, because I do think

692
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: the Office is like a universe of characters and style

693
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: choices that can map out many more narratives. Right, did

694
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: you have anything specifically to do with Jen Silata and

695
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: Paul Lieberstein, Paul and Jen and everyone that we had hired,

696
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: But Greg had then really nurtured and mentored on the job.

697
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: Even though they were accomplished as they arrived, they were

698
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: trained by Greg in Gregg's methodology and process. And our editors,

699
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: who were such an important part of that show, also

700
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: brought a lot of dexterity, and you know, became directors

701
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: of episodes, and cameraman became directors, and actors became directors,

702
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,760
Speaker 1: and writers became actors, and so you had this great

703
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: matrix of people who knew how to do each other's

704
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: jobs and support each other. And to keep the talented

705
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: people connected to you, you have to either promote them

706
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: or give them more responsibility, or they go do something else,

707
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: or maybe they'll go do something else with you if

708
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: it makes sense. So that's all part of it, right.

709
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: Did you feel like anything changed with Paul and Jen

710
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: leading the show or did you feel like it kept operating?

711
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: You know, with Greg's everything about the show changed when

712
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: Steve Correll left the show. When Steve left, that was

713
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: the seismic shift in its progression. And I think the

714
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: early energy of the show was just so fresh and

715
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: ridiculous that it has to me some of the highest

716
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: comedic hurdles and delivery and funny because then you learn

717
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: to actually know these characters are going to go as

718
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: far as they went in the beginning UM, and then

719
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: it becomes more soap opera and familial, but something different,

720
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: And I think Jen and Paul loved the characters and

721
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: knew that. I feel like with UM Steve's departure though,

722
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: there was just less son in the room. When did

723
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: you find out he was leaving? I was shocked that

724
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: they couldn't work it out. And when I the story

725
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: of how the network went about its process with him

726
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 1: after the fact, it made me so depressed how they

727
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: had kind of blown something that they could have saved.

728
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 1: And I think in that moment. Also, Greg not being

729
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: there to drive that also meant that we would lose Steve. Yeah, Um,

730
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: did you have any doubt that the show could go

731
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: forward without him? I knew the show could continue. I

732
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: think it didn't own its best stride and lost steam.

733
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: But had we used it to force even further reinvention

734
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: or different casting choices, I don't think we did anyone

735
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: a favor by bringing in James Spader. Neither James nor

736
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: the show. Um. And he's so talented and clearly had

737
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: the blacklist one second later, but that feels custom made

738
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: for him. You know, the way he played that character

739
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: on our show didn't breathe as well and didn't work

740
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: as well in our format. Right, What did getting to

741
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: hundred episodes signify to you? It was validating to reach

742
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: that milestone, but when you're in youth, you don't think

743
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: of things that way. It's interesting to reflect on that

744
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: number today and appreciated as an accomplishment, But I'm very

745
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 1: much today and tomorrow, And so while I was in it,

746
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about it's hundredth episode. I was thinking

747
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: about its next, the next hundred more. You left NBC

748
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: shortly after that in the summer of two thousand nine.

749
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: What was the context of you leaving? I just knew

750
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: I didn't want to remain at NBC anymore. It wasn't

751
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: my cup of tea to use our our britts expression.

752
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 1: I didn't enjoy being part of a organization was just

753
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: purely focused financially at that time, and needing to get

754
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: so much money out of our part of the business

755
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: to support other parts of the business like ge capital.

756
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: We also, when I was running NBC had come into

757
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: the greatest recession of our lives. And that recession, you know,

758
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 1: cause General Electric to panic and freeze and caused every

759
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: advertiser to stop spending and caused us to not get

760
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: to make as many episodes of shows and other projects

761
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: at the time. Also, so I was starting to think, Oh,

762
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: my goodness, how much is out of my control in

763
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: this job at NBC with five zillion employees and General

764
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: Electric and all of these elements attacking and driving me

765
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: crazy into daily places. And then the top grass just

766
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: wants you to, you know, save as much money as possible,

767
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: and the writers are striking and a war with you,

768
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: and none of it is in your control or where

769
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: your choices and so I knew I didn't want to

770
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: do it anymore. And so I remember quitting and being

771
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: just so excited to quit and uh and telling Jeff Sucker,

772
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: I just don't have a stomach ache when I'm in here.

773
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to be here, you know,

774
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: And I said, I'll help you manage it, but you know,

775
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: I gotta, I gotta. I can't be here anymore. And

776
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: I've delivered you a lot. Right um season nine, did

777
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: you think that it was time for the office to end?

778
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: I felt like people were losing some steam and there

779
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: was a little bit of the first time a little

780
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: friction that was this season eight or season not like

781
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: the lead up the lead up to season nine, and

782
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: I think there was just like a collective kind of

783
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: lack of focus and so it all just kind of

784
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: it didn't there's no friction point. It just kind of

785
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: was starting to not have the momentum that it had previously.

786
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: And then the way to almost reignite that moment and

787
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: was around its coming to an end, and that was

788
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: like a way to reinvent and re light it because

789
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: it gave everybody purpose. Well my understanding, Greg essentially confirmed

790
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: this that the documentary is revealed and we see the

791
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: characters responding to that um that from there there was

792
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: there was no way to go back. Yes, we broke

793
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: the wall, and he had planned to break the wall,

794
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: and then he had planned to finally blow the wall

795
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: up and pull back, and that projection became the inevitable result. Right.

796
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: Do you remember being on set the last day? I

797
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: remember being on set at the end and just thinking,

798
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: why wasn't I on set more? What an idiot to

799
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: have not been here and present, to have enjoyed this

800
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: ride and instead to pursue unfulfilled dreams of network domination

801
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: and ambition. I could have been here a part of

802
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: the greatest comedy in history, but the coolest people around,

803
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like an absentee landlord coming to visit. What

804
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: are you most proud of? I'm so proud of the

805
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 1: show's natural diversity and it's success with so many different groups,

806
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: and its ability to tell stories that kind of celebrated

807
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 1: the true America, which is what we see in real workplaces,

808
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: which is everyone represented. And I love that about the

809
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: show that it did in the truthful, honest way through comedy,

810
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: and that made me so happy about it. And I

811
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: always returned to the fact, as wistful as I am

812
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: talking about the soap opera of the show, it was

813
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: so fucking funny. The Office is genuinely laugh out loud funny,

814
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: and it is immediate, serious, high pitched comedy. It is

815
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people sitting on an airplane giggling at

816
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: the same time, watching their own monitors. Why do you think,

817
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: why is The Office right now, five years plus after

818
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: we've shot our last shot, Why is it the most

819
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: watch show on television right now? I think that The

820
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: Office is so textured and deep, has so many characters

821
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: who appealed to so many different people because those characters

822
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: represent so many different people, and it literally had a

823
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: larger ensemble. There were more actors and more characters for

824
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: people to connect with. But it also meant there was

825
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 1: more depth of story and more stories that could be

826
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: told because you had a richer ensemble to service and

827
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: who could service the show. And I think that people

828
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 1: kind of you know, understand that that world so well

829
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: that it makes them really connect to it and they're

830
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: living it in their own way, and through this they

831
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: can find escape and comedy and joy. There's something anachronistic too,

832
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: a warmer time, and I missed that time. And it

833
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: must be one of the reasons our show is so

834
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: resonant with the new generation, because they are in search

835
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: of this kind of family and this kind of warmth

836
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: and truth in a world that's just filled with bad

837
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: noise and bad news. But the main reason is because

838
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: of its quality. And you have to have now seen

839
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: it or watched or discovered it because someone is going

840
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: to bring it up, mention it, wear a T shirt,

841
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: send you a gift, and you have to now be

842
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,760
Speaker 1: part of it. You can no longer hide well. Everybody

843
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: who worked on it owes you tremendous thanks. You're the

844
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: person respond posible for bringing this to the United States,

845
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: and basically everybody who was involved with it owes you

846
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: so much for that. What are you thankful for? The

847
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: Office is the greatest gift, and I am so happy

848
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: I was one of its principles and architects and got

849
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: to work with such fine people, but got to connect

850
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: with a permanent piece of culture. And I'm excited that

851
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: I have something I can share with my son and

852
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: daughter without even knowing where they end up. I know

853
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: they're going to like that show, and it brings me

854
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: great joy and brings me some calm to know that

855
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: that has been entered into the book. Awesome, there you go.

856
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Buddy, love you great work. God you

857
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: got me all right, Bud, love you so much. I

858
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: thank you. There you have it. The man, the myth,

859
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: the legend, Ben Silverman, Ben, what can I say? I

860
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Speaker 1: appreciate you so much. I cannot even imagine how different

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00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: my life would be if you had not taken that

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00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: trip to London, flipped onto the Office and stalked Ricky

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00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: Gervais to a Starbucks all those years ago. So thank you,

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Speaker 1: and speaking of all of those years ago, Tomorrow is

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Speaker 1: a very special anniversary for the Office. It's the Office

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00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: is sweet sixteen, Yes sixteen, glorious years since our very

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Speaker 1: first episode premiere. So as an anniversary gift to you,

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Speaker 1: our listeners, we have we have a special episode with

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Speaker 1: some exciting guests and much much more. So come on

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Speaker 1: back tomorrow and listen to our sweet sixteen anniversary episode.

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Speaker 1: As always, thank you for joining me and have a

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Speaker 1: great day. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive

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00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang

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00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: Lee Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate producer

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00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia.

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Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our

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Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend

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Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth o'landski