1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: Body Dars with Joseph Scott Morgan. Blow winds and crack 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: your cheeks, rage, blow you cataracts, hurricanoes, spout till you 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: have drenched our steeples, drowned the cocks. You'll so fur 4 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: us and thought executing fires. That's actually from Act three, 5 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: Scene two of King Lear. This is part two of 6 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: the New Jersey Mansion Murders. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 7 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: this is Bodybags. In the first episode with the Mansion murders, 8 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: we kind of laid the groundwork, didn't we day for 9 00:00:54,400 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: this unbelievable familial tragedy that has occurred. And it would seem, 10 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: just as in the case of King Lear, that there 11 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: were storms all about that you can curse the storms 12 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: as much as you want, but they're still going to come. 13 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: And in this case it has ravaged this family and 14 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: this community. We're talking about four innocent people executed by shooting, 15 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: by stabbing, and then to make matters even worse, burned. 16 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: It's really hard to take the measure of it, isn't it, 17 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,639 Speaker 1: Dave that it is. 18 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: And Joe in this case where we are dealing with 19 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: a family being destroyed, and I mean that in the 20 00:01:54,480 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: general sense of the entire Canaro family. And we're going 21 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: Biblical on this. This is Book of Genesis stuff. Brother 22 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: killing brother over you know, yeah, yeah, And that's what 23 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: we have. We have the older brother accused of killing 24 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: the younger brother, and it comes down to brains and money. 25 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: Jealous of brains and a disagreement about money. I've been 26 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 2: here since the beginning. I deserve the same thing you do, 27 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: and that's just not the case. It happens in a 28 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: lot of businesses, but it's not the case. And they 29 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: saw things differently. Keith was at the point where he 30 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: had decided that since his brother Paul was spending too 31 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: much money on things he didn't that Keith did not 32 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: believe need to be spent, he was going to cut 33 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: Paul's salary. I mentioned this in the first episode. They 34 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,119 Speaker 2: were equal partners in one business, but not in Square one, 35 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: the tech business that was the business that had a 36 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: big future. Paul was not a profit sharing participant in that. 37 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: He wildly made it ben, but he was not an 38 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: equal partner. Be clear on that. He was an employee 39 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: and as his boss, Heath was getting ready to cut 40 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: his salary. A little demotion you could tell by how 41 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: they lived. That there was a big discrepancy in finance. 42 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was. However, I have to say quartermill per 43 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: year is nothing to sneeze at. 44 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: No, it's not. 45 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: And you know, I I don't know. I guess I'm 46 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: very theatrical today. I'm thinking about it. There there's that 47 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: that scene you know from Wall Street where Charlie Sheen's 48 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: character is asking Michael Douglas's character, you know, how many 49 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: yachts can you ski behind? And I don't know, you know, 50 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: but look, success is success, and it's earned most of 51 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: the time through hard work, and it it creates an 52 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: underlying jealousy. And look, we've known this for ages, right, 53 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: and you go back to canaan Abel. You know, it's 54 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: about jealousy, it's about envy, you know, those sorts of things. 55 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: But my Lord, to come to the point where you've 56 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: decided to execute a man in his front yard, and 57 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: I think it's rather emblematic of jealousy, because again, this 58 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: is all allegedly occurring at the hands of one brother 59 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: has not gone to trial yet. But to execute a 60 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: man in the front yard of this what has been 61 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: called a mansion, a mansion by New Jersey standards, and 62 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: then to go into a home wielding a pistol and 63 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: executing a wife, shooting her and then stabbing her as 64 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: if the shooting wasn't enough, and then go into the 65 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: bedroom of these because Dave, they they are children. Reminder, 66 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: they're eight and eleven, their little kids. You go in 67 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: and and you know, you hope that they didn't wake 68 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: up to see the man that they had spent Thanksgiving 69 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: with and you know, Christmas, and you know, maybe had 70 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: gone on vacation with him. Can you imagine that his 71 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: face illuminated there, you know, in that in that moment, 72 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: and he's wielding a knife and repeatedly stabbing them. I 73 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: don't know, it's uh, you know, I use the term 74 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: it's hard to take the measure of, but it truly is. 75 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: And when it comes down to it, it's it's just 76 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: absolute pure evil, Dave. 77 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: When the details of this case came out, I was 78 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: looking at the murder of Keith Canero on his front 79 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: yard and I wondered how everything took place. I'm thinking 80 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: he was probably the first victim. Because Paul Canaro is 81 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: accused of going into the home and killing Jennifer, the 82 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 2: wife and mother and the two children differently than he 83 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: killed allegedly killed Keith. So did he run out of bullets? 84 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: I mean from the scene, what do you see? 85 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking here. And you know, 86 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: you got to think dad's the gatekeeper here, right, because 87 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: if he sees someone in his yard, maybe maybe there 88 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: was a phone call preceding this, Maybe there was a 89 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: knock at the door early morning five A yeah, and 90 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: maybe maybe it's known that this man is an early riser. 91 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: He gets up, he's having this cup of coffee. Arrest 92 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: the families inside the house. It would have to be 93 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: someone that would be familiar, you know, with the environment 94 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: with this dwelling certainly, And how do you draw them 95 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: out of the house? House? Do you do you have 96 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: a key to the house? Did you force entry into 97 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: the house? Uh? Did you take this man at gunpoint? 98 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: Take him into the front and Dave, this is the 99 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: front yard? Think about that, the front yard. You're going 100 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: to execute somebody in their front yard. This is not 101 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: like you've done it in cover. Okay, you know you 102 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: haven't marched somebody out into the woods and uh pumped 103 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: rounds into them and left their body. I mean, how 104 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: many cases have we have we covered that involved concealment 105 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,679 Speaker 1: of a homicide and not just the body but actually 106 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: the act. You know, you know, you think about this 107 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: when this dynamic of of having someone in their front 108 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: yard and then unloading a weapon into their body, and 109 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: that has that has drawn me into this idea. Did 110 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: the individual run out of of live rounds at this 111 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: point in time or were they down to one? And 112 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: then you come armed also with a knife that is 113 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: sufficient to the task. And what I mean by that 114 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: it's not you're not talking about a steak knife, because 115 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: now you're utilizing a knife in order to facilitate not 116 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: the death of just one person, but an additional two 117 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: though they are children. You need something that's going to 118 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: be robust enough, that will that will withstand this vigorous 119 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: utilization of it where you're you're constantly, you know, just 120 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: stabbing over and over and over again. It has to 121 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: be robust enough to maintain that. So, yeah, I think 122 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: that what's so eye catching about about the mansion murder 123 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: is the fact that you've got husband, father laying dead 124 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: in the front yard, don't I don't recall us ever 125 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: covering a case like this where it's it's almost like, 126 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's done in plain view, if you will. Now, 127 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: granted we have to go back to what we talked 128 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: about in the first episode. This mansion is very isolated. 129 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: I say isolated. It's not encumbered by you know, you're 130 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: not talking about where you've got a division of two 131 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: to three feet between holmes. You know how they'll go 132 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: into a subdivision, they'll build homes this way, And it's 133 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: not like this. This is on a substantial plot of 134 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: land up there, David. 135 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: And happening early in the morning. And again, Joe, I'm 136 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: I'm really befuddled by what took place because it is 137 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: so close. You're talking about brothers here, and you're talking 138 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: about nieces, nephews, sister in law. You're talking about the 139 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 2: things that make life life. And Paul Canaro is allegedly 140 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 2: the guy that ended an entire family's life. Now front yard, 141 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: Keith Canaro is shot once in a lower back and 142 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: four times in the head. You got five bullets there, 143 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: assuming you didn't miss. I don't know how many shots 144 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: he fired, but you did mention you know they are 145 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: It's not like it's out in the middle of nowhere, 146 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: but it is isolated enough that gunshots at that time 147 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: of the day might not wake the neighbors because they're 148 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: a little bit further away than needed. But we've got 149 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: him dead on the front yard. You arrive. You mentioned 150 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: this in the previous show about when the firemen get there. 151 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: It's twelve thirty in the day. Okay, this began at 152 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 2: five am, before sun up, but nobody knows about it 153 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: until twelve thirty in the day when a next door 154 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: neighbor calls the fire department. So how did the murder 155 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 2: And let's just start with Keith Canara. How did his 156 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: murder occur in the front yard, assuming that he was 157 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: the first one killed, And that's probably not even a 158 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: good assumption, is it. 159 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: No, And it's hard to it's hard to put and 160 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: again with with whether it's stabbing or shooting. All right, 161 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to sequence cases. And I think that 162 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: many times jurors come in to a trial and they 163 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: expect the forensic pathologists to sit on the stand and 164 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: be able to say, Okay, this is the order that 165 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: the injuries took place in. There are those cases where 166 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: that can be accomplished. However, in a case like this, 167 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: the big question is well, I'm very interested in this 168 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: GSW to the back. Was there any hemorrhage in that wound? 169 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 1: Like let's just say, for instance, this dynamic where you 170 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: actually have you actually have Keith turning his back on 171 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: the perpetrator and to walk away, and this is just 172 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: one scenario, and the perpetrator fires center mass into his 173 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: back and knocks him down. Okay, Well, at autopsy, one 174 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: of the things that that we would do, and this 175 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: has not been revealed yet, is that at autopsy you 176 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: would check that wound to see if there's hemorrhage in there, 177 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,119 Speaker 1: because even in a perry mortem state where the individual 178 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: is in the midst of dying as opposed you know, 179 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: I've talked about this before in between you know, we've 180 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: talked about anti mortem and perry mortem and post mortem. 181 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: So you've got this gunshot one to the back. Was 182 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: this used to knock him down to get him under control? 183 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: And then you approach him, you get closer and Dave, 184 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, now, granted I've got a rather large melt 185 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: and on top of my shoulders, but heads are not 186 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: something that are to score headshot on anybody from a 187 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: firearm's perspective is indeed quite the feet, and particularly with 188 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: a handgun. Okay, handguns are not noted for great accuracy 189 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: at distance, So you have to think about the relationship 190 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: between the end of that muzzle and where these bullet 191 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: defects or projectile defects are in the head. So after 192 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: he's on the ground, maybe shot in the back. We 193 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: don't know this. I'm just kind of throwing this out there. 194 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: Then you approach him and you pump the rest of 195 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: these rounds in to his head. Are they through and through? 196 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: Which means do you have you know, around that inner 197 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: say in the back of the head and exits out 198 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: of the front. Are all these rounds still contained within 199 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: the head? And when they say head, it doesn't necessarily 200 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: mean like the cranial vault, because if they say head, 201 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: it can mean face, it can mean jaw, It can 202 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: be something that is just kind of a grays wound 203 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: that you have, maybe that runs along one aspect of 204 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: the neck, that is a separate gunshot wound from everything else. 205 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: This is another thing I've talked about through and through. 206 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: You know, many times when you fire into well most 207 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: of the time when you fire into a skull, there 208 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: is going to take place a fracturing of the plates 209 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: of the skull, so that compromises the structural integrity. So 210 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: maybe you will fire into a skull a single time 211 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: and that first round will not exit the skull. But 212 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: once that structural integrity of the skull is compromised, and 213 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: you've got these kind of little they look like for 214 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: those that have never seen it, they'll kind of if 215 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: you take a hard boled egg and you dropped it 216 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: on the surface and look at how the shell will fracture. 217 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: You get these multiple floating areas in there. Well, that's 218 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: the integrity of the egg being compromised. So you can 219 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: fire into a skull that's already fractured. Now, whereas you 220 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: may have been able to contain the first shot, those 221 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: subsequent shots might pass through and through, so you might 222 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: have wherever he is laying, you might have these projectiles 223 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: that have passed through the skull. They've had to go 224 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: in and excavate these, you know, from beneath the body, 225 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: and that would be something that would be quite quite 226 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: critical in a case like this, because you're trying to 227 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: tie back those projectiles to the same weapon, okay, or 228 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, if you're thinking that maybe you got multiple shooters. Well, 229 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: why would multiple shooters shoot a guy multiple times in 230 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: the head. This is not Hollywood. And why is it 231 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: that anyone would shoot some body more than one time 232 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: in the head, Because if you have an understanding of firearms, 233 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: then you would understand that it's probably only to take 234 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: one right, particularly he's already shot in the back. What's 235 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: the need for And of course, with that idea in mind, Dave, 236 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: this goes to overkill, and overkill always goes to passion, 237 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: doesn't So Keith is lying on the front lawn multiple 238 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. I think that anybody that has the least 239 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: bit of perception on their part can tell that Keith 240 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: is not getting up from this. That line of the home, 241 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: if you will, that visual that would provide safety, that 242 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: would protect his family is down. Now. Any perpetrator that 243 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: wanted to could go into the home and they're going 244 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: to be face to face with Keith's wife. Well, did 245 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: Keith's wife hear anything, did she alert to it, or 246 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: did the perpetrator seek her out in a specific location 247 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: within the home and then attack her. Well, we know 248 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: that she has sustained at least one gunshot wound to 249 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: her body and multiple stab wounds. Once you've eliminated the adults, 250 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: the children are easy prey. But you run the risk 251 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: by discharging a firearm in that house to alert everyone 252 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: in there. What happened with the kids? Did the kids 253 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: know that a weapon had been fired from within the house? 254 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: Did they wake up? Now? Just because the neighbors didn't 255 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: hear this day doesn't mean that the people inside the house. 256 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about Keith's family, his wife and those 257 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: precious children, I'm you know, did they hear the report 258 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: of the firearm over and over and over again outside? 259 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: Did they hear? And I say they, I mean the children? 260 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: Did they hear their mother being shot? Inside of the house? 261 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: Did they alert to this? Or is this house, this 262 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: structure so vast, it's so large, that they're positioned in 263 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: a place where they might not hear it. I think 264 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: these are all salient questions. 265 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 2: Day and powerful when you actually look at the dynamic here. 266 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 2: Assuming that we have Keith Canaro dead on the front yard, 267 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: and then going in you have his wife, Jennifer forty 268 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: five years old. She's mother. She's not going to let 269 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 2: you know what talking about the dad being there to stop, 270 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: you know, protecting all that, well, hey, when dad's not there, 271 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: it's mom. Yeah, mama bear, Yeah, she's going to protect 272 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 2: the babies. And so she is shot once and then 273 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: knifed not knowing. Because it hasn't gone a trial yet, 274 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 2: we don't have all of the information. But we do 275 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: know that Jennifer Canaro was shot and stabbed multiple times. 276 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: We know that the children were not shot, they were 277 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: only stabbed, which is an up close and personal murder. 278 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: Talk to you about this on the phone as I 279 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: was prepping this, because I was trying to get my 280 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: head wrapped around all of this that when we talk 281 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: about a gun shot wound that can be cold, doesn't 282 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: have to be up close and personal. 283 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: But when you talk. 284 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: About strangulation or stabbing, you've got to be right there 285 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: on the person. And so I was thinking, perhaps maybe 286 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: the alleged shooter killer only had one round left in 287 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: the gun and he used that on Jennifer and that 288 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: immobilized her enough so that he could finish the job 289 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: with the knife. And then he takes on the children 290 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 2: who are only eight and eleven, assuming a lot because 291 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: we don't know. But here's my bigger question, Joe. We 292 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: know that a fire in this house began early in 293 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: the morning. We know that it wasn't reported until the 294 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: next door neighbors, as you mentioned a little ways away, 295 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: they saw smoke earlier in the day and assume they 296 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: were just hey, got a fire in the fireplace, asked smoke. 297 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: But when that smoke continued and got bigger and got bigger, 298 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: that's when they called police and fire and said, hey, 299 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 2: we got a fire next door, you know, come on. 300 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: And so now that we have looked at this, the 301 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: fire crews show up on the scene. They find Keith 302 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: Canaro on the front yard debt. You mentioned in our 303 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 2: last episode that once they are positive he is gone, 304 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: they no life saving measures can be taken. They basically 305 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: cover the body and move onto the house to see 306 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 2: what else they've gone in there. 307 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, they would, and they'll they will freeze. 308 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: They will freeze the processing of the crime scene. Okay, 309 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: until that moment. And here's something. 310 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: That when you say frees the crime scene. 311 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that's really inaccurate. They 312 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: will forego processing the crime scene at that moment. Tom. 313 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: It's just like if you come across if you come 314 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: across somebody that is bled out somewhere. Maybe they're in 315 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: one area of the house. Well, you're you have to 316 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: go through the rest of the house in order to 317 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: assess if there is someone that is still there, they've 318 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: been injured and perhaps you can save them. But at 319 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: an even higher level here, we're not talking about that. 320 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: We're actually talking about a fully involved fire at this point, 321 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: where you have to knock this thing down. So the 322 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 1: fact that he has deceased, that Keith is deceased on 323 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: his front lawn is trumped by the necessity of knocking 324 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: down this fire because you don't know. I mean, keep 325 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: in mind, Dave this thing and trust me, firefighters structurally, 326 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: they are aware of what they've got on their hands here. 327 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 1: This house is a tinder box, okay, of all the 328 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: household items, everything, and they know that this thing can 329 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: get out of hand really quick. And most of the time, 330 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, November when this case happened, November is a 331 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: very dry month over pretty much most of the US. 332 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: It's not like springtime where you've got storms that are 333 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: rolling through and supersaturated ground and all this stuff. You've 334 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: got dry leaves about. There's tender everywhere, and not to mention, 335 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: everything is if you've got this neighborhood that's adjacent to area. 336 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: If they don't get the scene knocked down, the sink 337 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: can spread, and so they're thinking about all of the 338 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: rest of the area, you know, to try to keep 339 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: it contained as best they can, and then they will 340 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: return or the scene will be turned over two investigators 341 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: following getting this thing knocked down and secured to the point, 342 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: and they'll have to go through the home to see 343 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: if you know, maybe a kid crawled inside of a 344 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: closet and just by the grace of God, they have 345 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: survived this inferno. You never know what you're going to find. 346 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: Maybe they ran into the basement, you know, maybe they're there, 347 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: they're sequestered down there, away from all of this damage 348 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: that's going on. They have to go through and assess 349 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: all of this. They have to know do they have 350 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: a gas leak on their hands? Is there something in 351 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: this house that could kick off where now you're not 352 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: just dealing with a fully involved fire, now you're going 353 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: to deal with a potential explosion. You've got motor vehicles 354 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: there that presumably are gas operated. Are they going to 355 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: be you know, are they going to be involved in 356 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: the fire again? Another explosion. Is there a propane tank 357 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: adjacent to the house. Do they work on natural gas 358 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: or is it propane tank that's operating everything within the home? 359 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: Is this thing going to explode? There's so many other 360 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: considerations when firefighters are assessing an area. And I know 361 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people think, well, you're dragging a hose 362 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: and this could happen. I'm not saying it happen this case, 363 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: it has happened. You're dragging hose and equipment over a 364 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: decedent in the front yard. Well, you try, you make 365 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: note of it. But let me tell you something. If 366 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: if there is a decedent in the front yard of 367 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: a structure and you're trying to pull a hose from 368 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: the curb that's attached to a pumper or directly to 369 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: a fire hydrant, if the body is there, that hose 370 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: is going right over the body. They're going to get 371 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: to the house to knock this fire down. So it's 372 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: a real intricate dance, and you have to take account 373 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: of this when you're processing the scene. And here's something 374 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: interesting that many people might not know. Did you know 375 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: that investigators will take statements from everybody that's present at 376 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: that scene and that's something you know. So you'll go 377 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: back and you'll interview the firefighters, you'll interview the paramedics, 378 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: you'll interview the lieutenants and the captains that rode in 379 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 1: on those trucks. If a chief shows up in a 380 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: car and he crossed that tape, he's getting interviewed or 381 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: she's getting interviewed. So everybody that rolls out to that 382 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: scene is going to be interviewed. We want to know 383 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: what you have to say, because in most cases like this, 384 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: the police will be there, but the police are not 385 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: running into the house. That's what the firefighters do. So 386 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: when the firefighters make their way into that house, they're 387 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: going to have the first snapshot of what's going on 388 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: in this environment. Okay, some of them might have seen 389 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: this scene before got completely obliterated by fire, so their 390 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: remembrances are so critical to this case, Dave, that they 391 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: can appreciate what happened, what level of destruction, Where did 392 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: you see the most intense areas of flame? Did you 393 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,719 Speaker 1: hear anything when you entered the house. So all of 394 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: that plays into all of this as very complex. 395 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: All right, So that actually explains this is from the 396 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: actual timeline put together by the prosecutor. Sometimes before five am, 397 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: Paul Knaro allegedly removed certain items of evidence that's a 398 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 2: direct quote, certain items of evidence from his brother's place 399 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: and set fire to the house. We don't know what 400 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 2: these certain items of evidence are. They will come out 401 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: of trial, but police knew enough. Investigators determined he actually 402 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: removed certain items of evidence. Then the fire was not 403 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: discovered until twelve thirty eight PM that day when a 404 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: neighbor's groundskeeper reported it to authorities. Direct quote, again, based 405 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 2: on what we know about the cause and origin of 406 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: that fire, it was started in the basement, It continues 407 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: to smolder until there was entry made into the home. 408 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: Entry is not made by Keith, his wife, his children, 409 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: because they're all dead, Keith on the front yard, the 410 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: rest of the families in the house. The entry was 411 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: made by fire fighters that went inside to see They 412 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: see the smoldering, they see what's going on, and this 413 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: is what he says. The prosecutor says, quote a great 414 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 2: deal of oxygen coming into the home effectively fed the fire. 415 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: So it wasn't reported until twelve thirty eight. And what 416 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: we believe caused the fire to catch on from there 417 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: is likely the feeding of oxygen as the house was 418 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: entered into. 419 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a beautiful exp do nation. It's actually 420 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: something that we use in fire science to teach our 421 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: students with because fire itself is what's referred to as 422 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: an uninhibited chemical chain reaction. So you have to have 423 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: a heat source striking a match, You have to have 424 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: an accelerant. Well, that could be any number of different 425 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: petroleum items. For instance, Okay, some are a bit more 426 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: unstable than others. Gasoline is very unstable, whereas if you 427 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: have diesel, for instance, it'll burn a bit slower. Kerosene 428 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: kind of rest in the middle there. And there's other 429 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: things that you can start fires with, you know, road flares, 430 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: you know those sorts of things. And then you can 431 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: have electrical origins, and then you have to have fuel source. Well, 432 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: in this case, the fuel source would be if anything 433 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: had been drug into the house, like dry wood you had, 434 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: you know people, we'll take piles of clothing and put 435 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: them about every now and then, or it can just 436 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: be furniture. It can be because you don't know what 437 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: the structure of that basement was. For all I know 438 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: is a super duperman cave and you've got wood paneling everywhere, 439 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: You've got wooden floors that's lacquered or whatever, and it's 440 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: smoldering in there, and it's seeking out oxygen. But if 441 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: it's sealed up so tightly that all you're getting is 442 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: kind of the seepage of smoke that's pouring out, and 443 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: then you have to have a supply of oxygen, an 444 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: uninhibited supply of oxygen. So let me tell you this, 445 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: We're very lucky we don't have deceased firefighters, okay, because 446 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: when that door opens and oxygen blows into that room, 447 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: you can have this kind of flash over that takes 448 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: place with this introduction of the source of oxygen, and 449 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you've got this blast that initiates. 450 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: And that's quite fascinating that the prosecutor framed it that way. 451 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm very curious as to the mechanism that this individual 452 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: went with in order to get this thing to You've 453 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: got a slow burn that's going on. How do you 454 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: maintain that slow burn to the point where this thing 455 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: is not going to kick off for several hours, perhaps 456 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: after it's been set, maybe it's been kind of slowly 457 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: burning down there, and then all of a sudden boom, 458 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: the door opens up, and you're in a raging inferno 459 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: at this point in time, which is critical here. What's 460 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: going to be fascinating in this case, Dave, is to 461 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: listen to the arson investigators talk about this. One other 462 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: thing I'd like to know is was there any accelerant 463 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: splashed about the house? You see what I'm saying. So 464 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: did the perpetrator take multiple cans of an accelerant like 465 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: gasoline and go floor by floor, room by room and 466 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: body by body. So many of our friends are very 467 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: well versed in forensics, and it's not just my doing, 468 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: it's just everything that you hear in true crime. And 469 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that we have friends like that that 470 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: listen to the show. And if you've listened to True 471 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: Crime for any period of time, you know that fire 472 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: deaths are deaths where fire has been introduced into an 473 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: environment are some of the most complex things that we work, 474 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: I mean, and you have to take account of of 475 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: the body in its pristine state at the scene document 476 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: those things that seem so convoluted because it is fire 477 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: scenes are so messy. You're dealing with burned remnant that 478 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: is not necessarily just the body, but you're talking about 479 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: ceilings collapsing on bodies that are burning. Not just the bodies, 480 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: but the ceilings are burning, smoke damage, and all of 481 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: this ash has fallen down on the bodies. If there's 482 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: any remnant left of something that maybe clothing, maybe a 483 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: blanket a body was wrapped in, you have to be 484 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: able to appreciate all the little boundaries that have been 485 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: burned away in order to get everything up out of 486 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: that area, because you can, dave, you can actually set 487 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: a body on fire or have fire into a body 488 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: and the clothing burned up, and of course the clothing 489 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: that is beneath the body will be to a certain extent, 490 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: don't run too far with this. To a certain extent, 491 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: it's going to be preserved. Say, if you've got a 492 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: couple of kids laying in a bed and their bodies 493 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: are burned, well, if they're wearing pajamas, if they're laying 494 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: face down, then the surface on their chest is going 495 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: to be protected from totally being burned away, whereas everything 496 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: on the back is going to be gone. And this 497 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: goes to injury assessment too. You know, when we get 498 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: these bodies into the morgue, where do you begin, Well, 499 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: the first place that we begin is going to be 500 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: with the X rays that has That is key here 501 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: because when you look at a body that has been 502 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: consumed partially by fire, first off, the external the external 503 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: observations that you're making are going to be like any 504 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: nothing else that you see on crime scenes. The bodies 505 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: will be cracked, the surfaces will be burned to the 506 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: point where the bodies are literally charred, just like any 507 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: other item that you might have in a fire. And 508 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: you can't make heads or tails if you're looking at 509 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: a bullet defect, or if you're looking at a knife wound, 510 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: if you're looking at someone that has been pludging with something. 511 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: So it is very very complex, my friend. 512 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 2: All right, So we've got the three bodies in the house, 513 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 2: Jennifer and both children, Jesse and Sophia. And we know 514 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 2: that this fire smoldered for a number of hours before 515 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: it exploded into an inferno, with the oxygen being poured 516 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 2: into the building by doors being open and what have you. 517 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 2: We know that it took twenty different fire I don't 518 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 2: know if that's fire departments or if that's just fire, 519 00:34:59,560 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 2: you know. 520 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: I think it's companies and those yeah, fire companies. 521 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's what I But we've got twenty of 522 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 2: those involved, and they're not involved for just an hour. 523 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 2: We've got twenty fire companies involved for hours trying to 524 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: extinguish this fire. We know that the bodies were burned, 525 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: but how are you going to determine based on the 526 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 2: burning and everything else? When somebody is stabbed, unless bone 527 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: is nicked or something along those lines, I would think 528 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 2: that your evidence on the body is going to be 529 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 2: pretty much burned, right. 530 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. Here's the beauty of it is that you know, 531 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: this is not like a cremation where you have bodies 532 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: that have been burned for a protracted period of time. 533 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: You're having turned coals and all those sorts of things. 534 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: Did you know, Dave, that once a body is burned, 535 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: the exterior of the body, See how can I put this? 536 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: The exterior of the body will actually form almost a 537 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: hardened shell. Okay, with and again this is quite ghastly, 538 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: but with the skin and the underlying subcutaneous fat, it'll 539 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,439 Speaker 1: it'll almost harden to a certain extent, and you might 540 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: not be able to appreciate the injuries externally. However, once 541 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: you open up that body, let's just say someone has 542 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: been stabbed. Did you know that you can still appreciate 543 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: the wound tract because once you open the body, so 544 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: you reflect the the the chest tissue for lack of 545 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: a better term, on the underside of the tissue, you 546 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: can actually still see like a slit like mark there 547 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: that a knife has passed through. You overlay that and 548 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: you can track that through it passing through maybe between 549 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: the ribs, you can. It'll track through the organs because 550 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: the organs are still and depend upon how soon they 551 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: get to the body, there will be areas of hemorrhage 552 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: and the defect itself that you'll be able to track 553 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: through all the ways, say through like the solid organs 554 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: like a heart or the lungs, and still be able 555 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: to say, okay, this is in fact a stab wound. Okay. Now, externally, 556 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: because of that kind of crust that's built up externally 557 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: on the body, you can't really see it that well 558 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: if you're very, very careful, you can in some circumstances. 559 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. Just because of the top 560 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: of a body is burned. And when I say top, 561 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: I mean like the top of the trunk. Okay, the 562 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: top of the Torso just because that portion of the 563 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: body is burned extensively doesn't mean the lower half is 564 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: going to be burned as much. Okay, this is very 565 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: randomized kind of thing. Even I've had bodies where people 566 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: have dumped gas on bodies and set them a flame. 567 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: You will sometimes that flame will just flash over and 568 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: once the accelerant is burned off, then then you're not 569 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: going to have a lot more damage done to the body. Okay, 570 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: post mortem, all right, And it's gruesome if somebody gets 571 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: gas splashed on them and they catch fire in life, 572 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about 573 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: the dead. Whereas if you have the upper portion of 574 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: the body, say overlying a fuel source like a mattress 575 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: or clothing or some kind of cloth or a wood, 576 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: than that, because it again you have that fuel source 577 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: that's there that's constantly burning, that area of the body 578 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: will be more extensively burned. So you just have to 579 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: be very very careful. And that's why it's important to 580 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: document where the bodies are at the scene so that 581 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: you can appreciate their relationship, the body's relationships to any 582 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: other kind of items that might be surrounding that body. 583 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 2: This is amazing what you are able to break down 584 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 2: from something that doesn't seem to have it. I want 585 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 2: to say this the right way. There is so much 586 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 2: information that you bring to the table and talking about 587 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: a situation like this that I'm dumbfounded by what I've 588 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: never even thought of kind of thing. Because we know, 589 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 2: we have a massive home, it's almost six thousand square 590 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: feet and is on fire that has been smoldering for 591 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: hours before it finally really takes off. We've got one 592 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 2: man dead on the front yard, which, by the way, 593 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 2: I was noting his the nine one one call from 594 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 2: the neighbor. He actually called when he realized the smoke 595 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 2: was more intense than he had originally thought. And he's 596 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: getting closer to the home and as he gets in, 597 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 2: you can actually hear, according to the description, and we'll 598 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: find this out at trial, his description becomes more frantic 599 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 2: as he's relating this to nine one one about the fire. 600 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 2: And then he gets to the yard and he finds Keith, 601 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 2: and he said that's when he freaks out, Oh my god, 602 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 2: there's blood, there's there's a dead body. 603 00:39:59,560 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: You know. 604 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 2: That's what the fire crews were and police were coming 605 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 2: into They knew this is something more than just a 606 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 2: big house on fire, and so I was wondering about, 607 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 2: you know, the fire hoses. I maybe it might seem 608 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 2: like I don't care, but I was wondering about that 609 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 2: when you talked about the hoses would be drugged right 610 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 2: over the body because you got to get to the fire. 611 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 2: There's more danger in there too. But it took them 612 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 2: several hours before they could even actually go into the structure, 613 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 2: all the while knowing they probably have bodies inside. Joe, 614 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 2: do the fire crews as they go through the house 615 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 2: and they're putting out the fire, do they kind of 616 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 2: do a quick analysis of the structure of the building. 617 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: It determined whether or not you can come in and 618 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 2: look at what's left. What point is that decision made? 619 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well you will have to have there will 620 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: be a senior person with the fire service that will 621 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 1: walk through and they'll check the structural integrity of the 622 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: scene itself. And a little aside here I've had I've 623 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: had a rafter collapse on my head that was still 624 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: on fire. It had coals burning on top of it. 625 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: I got the back of my neck burned, and as 626 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: kind of a joke, but I was greatly appreciative of it. 627 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: At that time. I used to wear a hard hat 628 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: when I would go out one of the fire stations 629 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: that I was friends with. Those guys, they didn't actually 630 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: invite me over to eat every now and then when 631 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: some duty they gave me a h they gave me 632 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: a fire helmet at one point, and as it turned out, 633 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: you know, now it's pretty common practice if you go 634 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 1: to a medical examiner's office, you'll fire you'll find those 635 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 1: kind of classic fire helmets that people think of, you know, 636 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: and they'll be the badge on the front will actually 637 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: say medical examiner, now wow, And you know the heavier 638 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 1: jackets that they wear, those sorts of things. That's kind 639 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: of common practice back in my day, early on in 640 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: my career that that didn't happen as much. So you 641 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: you're you know, in a case like this, your safety 642 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: is pre eminent because you you know, if anybody is 643 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: in there that is deceased, you're not going to bring 644 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: them back to life by virtue of your presence. However, 645 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,720 Speaker 1: you can die because that's a very unstable, dangerous environment, 646 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: and you want to make sure that it's safe when 647 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: you go in there to begin to process the scene, 648 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, before you're going to remove anything. And here's 649 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: another thing. When you have bodies that are kind of 650 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: semi rendered down as a result of fire, all of 651 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: the area that is approximating the body is going to 652 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: go into the bag as well into into the body 653 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: bag at the scene, and when that is X rayed, 654 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: you'll find nuts, screws, springs, You'll find all kinds of 655 00:42:58,400 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: stuff that's in there, and you kind of have to 656 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: make when you're looking at the x ray, you're kind 657 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: of having to make your way through it and try 658 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: to understand is this important, is that something or is 659 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: this within the body as opposed to outside of the body, 660 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: Because you know, with a case like this where you've 661 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: you've already got evidence. Can you imagine the shock of 662 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: that neighbor. He's rolling up, he sees smoke, and he 663 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: rolls up and here's a guy that's probably you know, 664 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: leaned over the you know, proverbial fence with and chatted 665 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: you know with before, and he's laying dead in the 666 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: front yard. You know, you're looking upon him and you're thinking, oh, 667 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: my Lord in heaven, you know what what's happening? You know, 668 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,879 Speaker 1: at this moment in tom you never know what you're 669 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 1: going to find at a crime scene involving a fire. 670 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: You never know what you're going to find with the bodies. 671 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: Because you're talking about gunshot womens. You can find a 672 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,919 Speaker 1: projectile in there, you know, I'm thinking about Keith's body 673 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: right now. You've got multiple gunshot wounds. So are there 674 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: multiple projectiles? Well with the wife, is the projectile still 675 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 1: in her body and where is it located? That would 676 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: be essential And I think some people would think, well, 677 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: what's the purpose of doing an X ray on a 678 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,720 Speaker 1: body that's been stabbed? How do you know they've been stabbed, 679 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: particularly in a fire scene. Oh and by the bye, 680 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: if they are stabbed, guess what happens to blades? Many 681 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: times blades chip, blades break. I found the tips of 682 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: knife of knives broken off in spines. Before you know, 683 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,760 Speaker 1: you see that perfect little opaque triangle that's resting there, 684 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: you know, in the in the spine, and you're going 685 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,479 Speaker 1: to have to go in an autopsy and dissect out 686 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: that vertebral body and retrieve, retrieve that tip of that. 687 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 1: So there's a lot to be considered, and most importantly, 688 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: I think here one of the assessments that you're going 689 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,399 Speaker 1: to do with the autopsy is were they alive? Were 690 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: they alive when the fire started? You know, how are 691 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 1: you going to tell that? Joe, Oh, It's it's actually 692 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: quite simple day tell the truth. That's actually one of 693 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:19,399 Speaker 1: the most simple things that we do. First off, there's 694 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: two things. There's actually multiple, but I'll just I'll try 695 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: to keep it simple and brief. But first off, the 696 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: tissues within within the mouth, the fairynex, going down the 697 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: throat into the airway, you'll see them be highly irritated, obviously, 698 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: and then you're thinking about taking on soot because every 699 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: time you breathe in like that and you're in a 700 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: smoking environment, you're going to take in those particulate bits 701 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: and you'll find those again in the airway and certainly 702 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: down into the lungs. The other thing that we do 703 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: at autopsy is we run a test called a carboxy 704 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: globin level, and it's something that you see with carbon 705 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,720 Speaker 1: monoxide poisoning. Well, carbon monoxide is a byproduct of a fire, 706 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: and when you do the autopsy, just even when you 707 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: draw the blood, guess what color the blood is if 708 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: there is if there's carbon monoxide. It's pink. Think about 709 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: the brightest artificially made candy that's out there. It's that 710 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: got that kind of weird pinkish, reddish hue to it, 711 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,400 Speaker 1: and that gets into the organs as well. Well. The 712 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: only way that happens is if there's an uptake of 713 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: oxygen or an uptake of air, rather not an oxygen, 714 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 1: but air in this environment that's got carbon monoxide in it, 715 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,960 Speaker 1: So you're taking that on board. So there's multiple ways 716 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: that we can tell if the individual was still in 717 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: the land of the living when they died. And you know, 718 00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: the the interesting point here is this, and this is 719 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 1: what we will eventually hopefully find out. First off, how 720 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 1: much did these victims suffer? What was their absolute cause 721 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: of death? Was it a stab wound or was it 722 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 1: a stab wound where they were left in the space 723 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: slowly bleeding out all the while breathing in the smoke 724 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: that was coming up from the basement. 725 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 2: Joe, the way you've just phrased all that is so important. 726 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 2: A wrongful death lawsuit has been filed by the maternal 727 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 2: grandfather of Sophia Canaro. Follow me here, friends. Paul Canaro 728 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 2: has been charged in the killings and is awaiting trial 729 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 2: after six years, We're now looking at possibly next March 730 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 2: before this goes a trial. He is the sole defendant 731 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 2: in the wrongful death lawsuit filed on behalf of the 732 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 2: estate of Sophia Canaro by Vlassis Coreedes, her maternal grandfather. 733 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,720 Speaker 2: The suit is seeking damages from Paul Canaro on behalf 734 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 2: of the girl's estate. 735 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: How is that possible. 736 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 2: Keith, Jennifer and Jesse Canaro died instantly, but an autopsy 737 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 2: now shows Sophia survived for nine hours after the attack 738 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 2: before she died of smoke inhalation. And the lawyer that 739 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 2: files is filing the wrongful death lawsuit says that's why 740 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,840 Speaker 2: they are filing it this way, because Sophia survived her parents, 741 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,840 Speaker 2: she inherited their estates and died into state, passing the 742 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 2: estates to her grandparents, and Vlassis Coreedes has standing to 743 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 2: now bring this claim of wrongful death against Paul Canaro. 744 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 2: So now we know, while Keith, Jennifer, and Jesse Canaro 745 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:54,239 Speaker 2: all died instantly, little Sophia lived for nine hours and 746 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:55,800 Speaker 2: died of smokeingalation. 747 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: There's so much more left here with this case to 748 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: be able to unpacked, to be able to understand, and 749 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,840 Speaker 1: to be able to put together this mosaic that seems 750 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: very very complex, and you know, to kind of paraphrase 751 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:16,279 Speaker 1: a quote from the defense attorney that is handling this 752 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: case for Paul brother Paul, this is a dump truck 753 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: load of forensic evidence and there are terabytes of it. 754 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: The question is what kind of tale will be told 755 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: in the New Jersey murder Mansion. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 756 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks