1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin, the first airline ever, the first airline in the 2 00:00:22,596 --> 00:00:26,316 Speaker 1: history of the world, started in nineteen fourteen. It flew 3 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: passengers just a short hop across the Bay from Saint 4 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 1: Petersburg to Tampa, and its maximum speed was about sixty 5 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: miles an hour. By the nineteen sixties, just fifty years later, 6 00:00:37,356 --> 00:00:40,196 Speaker 1: passenger jets were flying ten times as fast as that, 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:44,116 Speaker 1: and that increase in speed transformed the meaning of travel. 8 00:00:44,916 --> 00:00:49,436 Speaker 1: But then after the sixties, air travel just stopped getting faster. 9 00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:52,636 Speaker 1: A flight today takes about as long as a flight 10 00:00:52,716 --> 00:00:55,996 Speaker 1: took sixty years ago. We've gone from a ten x 11 00:00:56,036 --> 00:01:07,116 Speaker 1: improvement to no improvement at all. What happened? I'm Jacob 12 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:09,356 Speaker 1: Bolgstein and this is What's Your Problem? The show where 13 00:01:09,356 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 1: I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 14 00:01:12,516 --> 00:01:15,556 Speaker 1: My guest today is Blake Shoal, the founder and CEO 15 00:01:15,716 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 1: of Boom Supersonic. Blake's problem is this, can you build 16 00:01:20,036 --> 00:01:22,836 Speaker 1: a commercial airplane that flies faster than the speed of 17 00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: sound and that can turn a profit. Blake started the 18 00:01:27,716 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: company in twenty fourteen. Since then, he's secured pre orders 19 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:36,556 Speaker 1: from japan Airlines, United and American Airlines, and he and 20 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:39,356 Speaker 1: his team built a test plane that flew faster than 21 00:01:39,356 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: the speed of sound. Now they're working on a full 22 00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:45,596 Speaker 1: size commercial jet that Blake hopes will fly at mock 23 00:01:45,756 --> 00:01:49,116 Speaker 1: one point seven one point seven times the speed of sound, 24 00:01:49,516 --> 00:01:52,596 Speaker 1: or roughly twice as fast as commercial jets fly today. 25 00:01:53,676 --> 00:01:56,796 Speaker 1: To start, I asked Blake about the Concord. The Concord, 26 00:01:56,836 --> 00:02:01,116 Speaker 1: of course, is the only supersonic commercial passenger jet ever built, 27 00:02:01,196 --> 00:02:04,836 Speaker 1: ever flown with passengers on it. But the Concord stopped 28 00:02:04,876 --> 00:02:08,196 Speaker 1: flying more than twenty years ago, and today it's widely 29 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:09,236 Speaker 1: viewed as a fail. 30 00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 2: I think Concord killed supersonic flight and Apollo killed space exploration. 31 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:17,276 Speaker 2: And yet at nineteen sixty nine, we had that first 32 00:02:17,276 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 2: moon landing and we had that first flight of Concord, 33 00:02:21,156 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 2: and at the time it looked like both of these 34 00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:27,756 Speaker 2: were harbingers of huge technological progress for humanity. And I 35 00:02:27,796 --> 00:02:29,956 Speaker 2: think if you stop somebody in the street nineteen sixty 36 00:02:30,036 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 2: nine and said, in twenty twenty five, what do you 37 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 2: think space exploration will be like? What do you think 38 00:02:34,276 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 2: flight will be like? No one would have predicted that 39 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 2: supersonic would be gone and moon landings will be gone. 40 00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:42,036 Speaker 1: Right, But that was the peak, it wasn't going to 41 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:44,836 Speaker 1: get any better, and in fact, in terms of commercial 42 00:02:44,876 --> 00:02:47,156 Speaker 1: air air travel, it was going to get worse. 43 00:02:47,516 --> 00:02:51,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, everything got worse. Everything got worse. And I think 44 00:02:51,156 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 2: that Concord and Apollo are actually brethren. Both were technologically 45 00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:00,756 Speaker 2: extremely impressive, like what we did in the nineteen sixties 46 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 2: with rockets and airplanes, with slide rolls, drafting paper wind 47 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 2: tunnels is extremely totonal, logically impressive. Yet that the motivation 48 00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:16,036 Speaker 2: as what was killer and both Concored and Apollo were 49 00:03:16,156 --> 00:03:20,516 Speaker 2: Cold War era glory projects led by governments who are 50 00:03:20,556 --> 00:03:22,396 Speaker 2: competing for prestige. 51 00:03:22,116 --> 00:03:25,196 Speaker 1: Basically to show up the Soviet Union right, to show 52 00:03:25,196 --> 00:03:29,756 Speaker 1: the superiority of Western capitalism over Soviet communism. 53 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 2: Yes, except the deep irony is we did at the 54 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 2: communist way, right. 55 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:36,356 Speaker 1: They were command and control projects that made no economic sense. 56 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 2: They were command and control projects with no economic sense. 57 00:03:39,196 --> 00:03:42,756 Speaker 2: And it turns out when the West copied effectively the 58 00:03:42,756 --> 00:03:46,716 Speaker 2: communist approach for a little while we had technological superiority 59 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:50,036 Speaker 2: because of the momentum that we had, but then we 60 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:53,836 Speaker 2: destroyed ourselves. And so you know, Apollo didn't even pretend 61 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 2: to have anything commercial right, like it was operating on 62 00:03:56,676 --> 00:04:00,236 Speaker 2: it like a percentage of GDP, right, which is to say, 63 00:04:00,276 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 2: an incredibly large amount of money relative to the overall 64 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:04,996 Speaker 2: economy went into getting. 65 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:06,516 Speaker 1: A very small number of people to the moon a 66 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 1: few times. 67 00:04:06,876 --> 00:04:09,676 Speaker 2: That's that's right, yeah, And you know, and and the 68 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 2: knock on effect of that, you know, for the entire 69 00:04:12,196 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 2: airspace supply chain, it was basically, you know, land on 70 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 2: the mood at all costs, are at any cost, And 71 00:04:19,316 --> 00:04:22,716 Speaker 2: the result was the entire space side of the supply 72 00:04:22,836 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 2: chain got drunk on these incredibly lucrative contracts were costs 73 00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:29,196 Speaker 2: was no object, right, And then after the Cold War 74 00:04:29,236 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 2: it only got worse and we put all of the 75 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 2: like defense industrial base on corporate welfare and they got 76 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 2: fat and dumb. And then and then on the concord side, 77 00:04:39,756 --> 00:04:43,556 Speaker 2: it at least looked better because on paper, this was 78 00:04:43,596 --> 00:04:46,276 Speaker 2: a commercial airplane where people could buy tickets and airlines 79 00:04:46,276 --> 00:04:50,196 Speaker 2: would buy the airplanes, and you know, the airlines would 80 00:04:50,236 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 2: make money. But in reality it wasn't that. Here here's 81 00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 2: a hundred seat airplane, by the way, one hundred like 82 00:04:57,236 --> 00:05:00,876 Speaker 2: actually pretty uncomfortable seats, and what you know, ejected for 83 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 2: inflation was a twenty thousand dollars ticket, and you just 84 00:05:04,516 --> 00:05:07,076 Speaker 2: can't find one hundred people that want to pay twenty 85 00:05:07,116 --> 00:05:09,236 Speaker 2: grand to go somewhere really fast. I mean this, this 86 00:05:09,276 --> 00:05:13,556 Speaker 2: is for royalty and rock stars, and especially with like 87 00:05:13,716 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 2: eighties and nineties kind of travel demand. The thing flew 88 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 2: half empty on the best route in the world, which 89 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:21,716 Speaker 2: is New York to London. You know, if you want 90 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:22,876 Speaker 2: to find people who want to pay a lot of 91 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:24,476 Speaker 2: money to go fast, New York London, it's the best 92 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:25,436 Speaker 2: city pair you could pick. 93 00:05:26,116 --> 00:05:26,236 Speaker 1: Uh. 94 00:05:26,636 --> 00:05:30,196 Speaker 2: And it doesn't work at all economically beyond that, and 95 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:32,756 Speaker 2: so and then the world drew all the wrong conclusions, 96 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:35,756 Speaker 2: you know, they concluded like supersonic flight had to be expensive, 97 00:05:36,196 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 2: it had to be cramped and uncomfortable, it had to 98 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:43,756 Speaker 2: be noisy, it had to be uneconomic. And it's like, imagine, 99 00:05:44,036 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 2: imagine if we built like the Univac, you know, like 100 00:05:47,236 --> 00:05:49,716 Speaker 2: one of the first mainframe computers it which is like 101 00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:51,516 Speaker 2: the size of the room, and you have to be 102 00:05:51,636 --> 00:05:55,076 Speaker 2: like a bank to afford it. And then we stopped. 103 00:05:55,836 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 2: And then and then fifty years later people would swear 104 00:05:58,116 --> 00:05:59,796 Speaker 2: up and down that you could never possibly have a 105 00:05:59,796 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 2: pocket computer that every day people could have could afford 106 00:06:05,036 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 2: but yet you know, Concord is like the UNIVAC. 107 00:06:09,636 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 1: Uh huh, it's a design from the nineteen sixties. 108 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:14,956 Speaker 2: Basically, that's right, that's right. And I say this with 109 00:06:15,076 --> 00:06:19,276 Speaker 2: like deep admiration for the incredible technical work that went 110 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:22,636 Speaker 2: into it. A lot of people worked really hard. They 111 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:25,716 Speaker 2: did amazing things. Now that we are you know now 112 00:06:25,756 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 2: that at Boom we have like built and flown a 113 00:06:27,196 --> 00:06:30,436 Speaker 2: supersonic jet, what we can see is they did really 114 00:06:30,476 --> 00:06:33,996 Speaker 2: really well given the tech was available in the nineteen sixties. 115 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 2: It's extremely impressive. You know, in Britain and France, people 116 00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:40,676 Speaker 2: are incredibly proud of Concord, and from a technological level, 117 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:41,516 Speaker 2: like they deserve to be. 118 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,356 Speaker 1: So. So, okay, you were you were a software developer, right, 119 00:06:45,396 --> 00:06:48,236 Speaker 1: You weren't a plane guy. You weren't an aerospace engineer. 120 00:06:48,596 --> 00:06:51,596 Speaker 1: But like whatever, twelve years ago or something, you got 121 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 1: interested in this idea of supersonic air travel. Why aren't 122 00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 1: there supersonic jets? So you have this question in your mind. 123 00:06:58,916 --> 00:07:00,956 Speaker 1: You go try and figure it out. What do you find? 124 00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 2: The internet was full of all this conventional wisdom about 125 00:07:04,996 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 2: why flights aren't faster. You can still find some of 126 00:07:07,356 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 2: these YouTube videos and they say, is like supersonic flight 127 00:07:11,276 --> 00:07:14,396 Speaker 2: is inherently more expensive. Passengers always buy the cheapest ticket, 128 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 2: so supersonic flight will never be commercially viable. And hang on, Well, 129 00:07:19,596 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 2: first off, that's a qualitative claim about a quantitative question, 130 00:07:22,636 --> 00:07:25,276 Speaker 2: and it doesn't even really completely make sense, right, Like, 131 00:07:25,796 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 2: the whole reason we have jet flights is because people 132 00:07:28,036 --> 00:07:30,876 Speaker 2: wanted to go faster than not propeller flights. The reason 133 00:07:30,956 --> 00:07:34,076 Speaker 2: people pay more for direct flights than connecting is they 134 00:07:34,076 --> 00:07:37,716 Speaker 2: want to save time and hassle. Time is the one 135 00:07:37,756 --> 00:07:40,836 Speaker 2: resource it's not ever renewable, So the idea that people 136 00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:43,156 Speaker 2: wouldn't pay for time savings didn't completely make sense. 137 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 1: Sure, plainly, at some margins, some people will pay some 138 00:07:46,276 --> 00:07:49,276 Speaker 1: amount more to go some amount faster. Right, exactly what 139 00:07:49,316 --> 00:07:50,116 Speaker 1: are all the margins? 140 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:53,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, You're totally right. It's a quantitative question, not 141 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 2: a qualitative one. And I think one of the lessons 142 00:07:56,556 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 2: of I think the Boom story is never accept a 143 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:01,956 Speaker 2: qualitative answer to a quantitative question. Go run the math. Okay, 144 00:08:01,956 --> 00:08:04,876 Speaker 2: what is the actual cost of supersonic flight and what 145 00:08:04,956 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 2: is people's actual willingness to pay to go faster? So 146 00:08:08,036 --> 00:08:09,636 Speaker 2: it turned out it took two weeks to find the 147 00:08:09,676 --> 00:08:13,156 Speaker 2: key idea, which is I mean, today there is a 148 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:18,436 Speaker 2: huge market for international business class. It's roughly twenty percent 149 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:22,476 Speaker 2: of passengers and eighty percent of international airline profits on 150 00:08:22,716 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 2: business class, which is flying beds for people who so 151 00:08:27,636 --> 00:08:29,796 Speaker 2: hate that flights are along that they want to try 152 00:08:29,796 --> 00:08:33,596 Speaker 2: and sleep through them on the airplane. And so that 153 00:08:33,636 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 2: the original boom idea was, well, what if we could 154 00:08:36,116 --> 00:08:39,556 Speaker 2: make a supersonic seat with the economics of a flying 155 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 2: bed and business class, but on an airplane sufficiently fast 156 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:44,196 Speaker 2: that you wouldn't need to sleep on it. You could 157 00:08:44,196 --> 00:08:47,796 Speaker 2: sleep at home instead. And so the first question I 158 00:08:47,836 --> 00:08:49,316 Speaker 2: asked is, well, how much would you have to beat 159 00:08:49,356 --> 00:08:53,836 Speaker 2: Concord by on just basic airplane efficiency in order to 160 00:08:53,876 --> 00:08:57,116 Speaker 2: create a seat with the economics of a flying bed. 161 00:08:57,596 --> 00:08:59,276 Speaker 2: And the answer was less than ten percent. 162 00:09:00,316 --> 00:09:03,636 Speaker 1: Uh huh, So like Concord was almost there by your reckoning. 163 00:09:04,276 --> 00:09:08,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. If you could improve on the gas 164 00:09:09,116 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 2: dileage basically of Concord by less than ten percent, that 165 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:15,916 Speaker 2: you would tip over to this happy point where you 166 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 2: could have a supersonic seat with the economics of a 167 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:20,756 Speaker 2: flatbed and business class and instead of being this like 168 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:26,156 Speaker 2: stratospheric airplane that like flies mostly empty, a whole bunch 169 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 2: of modern demand would be there, the seats would fill 170 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:30,116 Speaker 2: at a high rate, and the market would be gigantic. 171 00:09:31,996 --> 00:09:34,636 Speaker 2: And so that that took two weeks, and I was 172 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 2: like that, well, I don't know anything about airplanes, Like 173 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 2: all I had at that point was my pilot's license. 174 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:43,596 Speaker 2: But ten percent versus nineteen sixties technology didn't seem crazy. 175 00:09:44,596 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 2: So at that point I was like, Okay, if I'm 176 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:48,476 Speaker 2: going to go do this, I need to know a 177 00:09:48,516 --> 00:09:50,716 Speaker 2: heck of a lot more. And it sort of kicked 178 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:54,236 Speaker 2: off what was really a twelve month journey for me 179 00:09:55,276 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 2: getting educated in aerospace. 180 00:09:57,036 --> 00:09:59,196 Speaker 1: So when you're when you say ten percent, I mean, 181 00:09:59,276 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 1: is that sort of a marginal cost calculation like that? 182 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 1: That is that basically setting aside the fixed cost of 183 00:10:07,116 --> 00:10:10,156 Speaker 1: building the first plane and then build well of building 184 00:10:10,156 --> 00:10:13,116 Speaker 1: the first plane like that seems like the big unknown 185 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:14,436 Speaker 1: in the math there is how much is it going 186 00:10:14,516 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 1: to cost to make plane number one? Yeah? 187 00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:19,076 Speaker 2: I mean, so there are a few things that matter, right. 188 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:22,796 Speaker 2: The first thing is if we could manage to produce 189 00:10:22,876 --> 00:10:26,876 Speaker 2: the airplane, would it be affordable for passengers, improfitable for airlines. 190 00:10:27,236 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of the first principles version is like, 191 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:33,196 Speaker 1: let's just look at the physics and like thinks, right, 192 00:10:33,436 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 1: what we know, is it theoretically possible to build an 193 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: airplane that can fly enough people from New York to 194 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 1: London if they pay business class but sit upright at 195 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:46,316 Speaker 1: supersonic speeds? Does the first principles math pencil up? That's 196 00:10:46,356 --> 00:10:47,716 Speaker 1: the math you're doing there, that's. 197 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:52,076 Speaker 2: Right, with technology that's available, is it possible to build 198 00:10:52,116 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 2: an airplane that is affordable for passengers improfitable for airlines? 199 00:10:55,956 --> 00:10:57,956 Speaker 2: And it turned out the answer was yes. 200 00:10:58,036 --> 00:11:00,636 Speaker 1: Uh huh, And what is business class New York London? 201 00:11:00,676 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 1: What is that five grand? Something like? 202 00:11:02,596 --> 00:11:04,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah about that? I mean, actually people routinely pay 203 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 2: more than five grand. The economics of our airplane. It 204 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:11,396 Speaker 2: turns out thirty five hundred is break even. So at 205 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 2: five grand it's very profitable for airlines. And people pay 206 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 2: five grand by the way round trip routinely. 207 00:11:16,996 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so you've got the kind of first principles 208 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: back of the envelope math that looks promising. So you 209 00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 1: started the company, yes, and and that was what about 210 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 1: ten years ago, right? 211 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 2: That was Yeah, it was about eleven years ago now 212 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:38,876 Speaker 2: that I was making that spreadsheet, and you know, we'll turn. 213 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:41,716 Speaker 2: We'll turn eleven on paper in September, because that was 214 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 2: when I got to the point where, Okay, I'm actually 215 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 2: really committed, it's time to go. 216 00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:51,596 Speaker 1: I love that you called it boom leaning in like 217 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:56,196 Speaker 1: embracing the haters in some in some fashion. Tell me 218 00:11:56,236 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 1: about the boom. Let's talk about supersonic booms. 219 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, so my belief from day one was that the 220 00:12:04,196 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 2: boom would not be the blocker, and that that spreadsheet 221 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:11,876 Speaker 2: basically said there is a gigantic market for supersonic flight 222 00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:15,436 Speaker 2: even if the boom is entirely unsolved, and you have 223 00:12:15,476 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 2: to fly subsnic over land and supersonic over water and 224 00:12:20,916 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 2: focus initially on on routes that were primarily transoceanic. 225 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 1: Just to be clear, in the US right now, commercial 226 00:12:28,876 --> 00:12:32,196 Speaker 1: flights are not allowed to fly supersonic, even if there 227 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:34,476 Speaker 1: were a plane that could do it by regulation, right 228 00:12:34,516 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 1: because of the boom. Is that the starting point? 229 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that that's where we started, because the premise was, hey, 230 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:42,436 Speaker 2: it's pretty ambitious to start a brand new company from 231 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 2: scratch where your goals to build a supersonic airliners. So 232 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 2: let's not let's not push anything too far. Let's operate 233 00:12:50,076 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 2: only with existing technology and only with existing regulations, and 234 00:12:54,556 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 2: that would that would have some hope of making it 235 00:12:57,196 --> 00:12:59,476 Speaker 2: tractable for a startup to go do. 236 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:02,956 Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little bit about the 237 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:08,036 Speaker 1: last ten years and building XB one, your test plane, 238 00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: And I'm curious in particular sort of unsurprisingly it has 239 00:13:13,276 --> 00:13:15,596 Speaker 1: taken longer than you thought, which it would be shocking 240 00:13:15,636 --> 00:13:17,756 Speaker 1: if it didn't, rightly given the nature of the project. 241 00:13:18,116 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 1: But I'm curious, like, what were some of the things 242 00:13:20,316 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 1: you thought at the jump that turned out to be wrong, 243 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 1: you know, things where you went down the wrong path 244 00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:26,476 Speaker 1: and had to do something different. 245 00:13:26,876 --> 00:13:29,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we started out with XB one, we 246 00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 2: gave it some really really aggressive goals. So we wanted 247 00:13:33,916 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 2: to go ten percent faster than Concord, We wanted to 248 00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 2: do it with a passenger on board. We wanted to 249 00:13:39,196 --> 00:13:41,196 Speaker 2: not need an after burner. Like. We gave it all 250 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 2: these you know, fairly aggressive goals that were actually well 251 00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:48,636 Speaker 2: beyond what was really necessary. But we thought we didn't 252 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:52,636 Speaker 2: appreciate all of the challenges that would would come with that, 253 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 2: and so we actually made the job a lot harder 254 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:57,476 Speaker 2: than it needed to be. And the biggest thing that 255 00:13:57,516 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 2: we learned on XB one in this context is is pragmatism, like, 256 00:14:03,236 --> 00:14:05,956 Speaker 2: it doesn't need to go mock two point two. At 257 00:14:06,036 --> 00:14:09,116 Speaker 2: mock one point seven. Is it totally fine, minimum viable 258 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:12,676 Speaker 2: supersonic chat and it's dramatically easier. So part of what 259 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:14,276 Speaker 2: we learned from XP one is how to make the 260 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:18,676 Speaker 2: overture airliner a lot easier to do, and it was 261 00:14:18,716 --> 00:14:21,356 Speaker 2: things like, if you want to go mock two point two, 262 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:25,516 Speaker 2: the wings have to be really skinny, and if the 263 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 2: wings are really skinny, it's very hard to fly takeoff 264 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 2: and landing. And so we ended up spending two years 265 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 2: on low speed aerodynamics for takeoff and landing with a 266 00:14:37,036 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 2: wing that was really designed to go super super fast, 267 00:14:40,396 --> 00:14:43,236 Speaker 2: and then with a long, skinny airplane to go mock 268 00:14:43,276 --> 00:14:46,036 Speaker 2: two point two. It's really hard to fit the landing 269 00:14:46,036 --> 00:14:48,956 Speaker 2: gear in. And so we ended up I remember in 270 00:14:48,996 --> 00:14:51,916 Speaker 2: like twenty nineteen when we're like finishing the design of 271 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 2: this thing and kind of in the process of building it, 272 00:14:54,036 --> 00:14:55,436 Speaker 2: and so wait a minute, how did we end up 273 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 2: in a corner of the universe where we have to 274 00:14:57,596 --> 00:15:01,596 Speaker 2: design the most efficient shock absorber ever made like that 275 00:15:01,756 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 2: was a bizarre like and we literally we had to 276 00:15:03,916 --> 00:15:06,196 Speaker 2: design the most efficient shock absorber ever made for a 277 00:15:06,276 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 2: landing gear. Why, well, we given ourselves this like unnecessarily 278 00:15:10,596 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 2: challenging top speed goal, which it made the airplane log 279 00:15:13,396 --> 00:15:15,596 Speaker 2: and skinny, which made the landing gear need to fit 280 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 2: in a very tight space, which meant the shock absorbers 281 00:15:17,836 --> 00:15:18,996 Speaker 2: had to be really really good. 282 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: Uh huh, Well, why had you? I mean, it's easy 283 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:24,156 Speaker 1: from this point of view to say, like why it 284 00:15:24,196 --> 00:15:25,916 Speaker 1: was foolish to try and go so fast? Which is 285 00:15:25,916 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: sort of what you're saying. But presumably when you picked 286 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 1: that speed, you picked it for a reason. Why did 287 00:15:31,236 --> 00:15:31,996 Speaker 1: you pick that speed? 288 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, well we there was sort of a scientific reason, 289 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:38,596 Speaker 2: and then there was probably an emotional reason. And the 290 00:15:39,316 --> 00:15:42,276 Speaker 2: scientific reason was we thought we were on the happy 291 00:15:42,316 --> 00:15:44,836 Speaker 2: side of a lot of market opportunity and on the 292 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:49,236 Speaker 2: happy side of the step changes in technological challenge. Based 293 00:15:49,276 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 2: on what we knew from textbooks. 294 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:54,076 Speaker 1: The market opportunity means the faster you go, the bigger 295 00:15:54,116 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: the market. 296 00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:57,956 Speaker 2: I mean, that's right, Like, you know, if you speed 297 00:15:57,956 --> 00:16:00,236 Speaker 2: a flight up. I'll pick an extreme example. Let's let's 298 00:16:00,236 --> 00:16:01,876 Speaker 2: say you speed up New York London by like half 299 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:05,196 Speaker 2: an hour. You actually make the flight worse. It's still 300 00:16:05,196 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 2: going to be scheduled as a red eye, right, but 301 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:10,276 Speaker 2: you don't get as much sleep, that's right, So it's 302 00:16:10,316 --> 00:16:11,356 Speaker 2: actually it's actually worse. 303 00:16:11,676 --> 00:16:13,956 Speaker 1: And then presumably if you can go fast enough, you 304 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: can like fly the same crew to London and back 305 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:19,676 Speaker 1: without having to change the crew, and your economics get 306 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:20,716 Speaker 1: better or something bingo. 307 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 2: That's one of the ways the economics in this work 308 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 2: when you go faster. Lots of things actually get cheaper. 309 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 2: You need less crews, you don't you don't spend money 310 00:16:28,836 --> 00:16:31,716 Speaker 2: putting people up in Marriotts like that. We call that 311 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:33,556 Speaker 2: the speed dividend. There's a lot of cost that comes 312 00:16:33,596 --> 00:16:34,196 Speaker 2: down with speed. 313 00:16:34,276 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: Basically, the cost the benefits of going two point two 314 00:16:37,436 --> 00:16:39,836 Speaker 1: are the same, but the cost of the marginal cost 315 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:41,836 Speaker 1: of going that much faster was higher than you thought. 316 00:16:42,076 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 2: That's that's right. Like and fuel burn. You know, once 317 00:16:44,396 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 2: we committed to meeting the same most stringent noise rules 318 00:16:48,916 --> 00:16:51,476 Speaker 2: that apply to subsonic airplanes that actually puts a big 319 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:54,476 Speaker 2: penalty on high speed, and we found that it mocked 320 00:16:54,516 --> 00:16:57,356 Speaker 2: two point two. We'll be burning forty percent more fuel 321 00:16:57,436 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 2: than at one point seven, and yet and what that 322 00:17:00,076 --> 00:17:02,916 Speaker 2: meant in flight times was actually just a fifteen minute difference. 323 00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:03,956 Speaker 1: Huh. 324 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:06,316 Speaker 2: So it made no sense, and we got more pragmatic. 325 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:09,356 Speaker 2: And the other thing that, you know, it was the 326 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 2: kind of the emotional piece of this was, you know, 327 00:17:11,836 --> 00:17:14,236 Speaker 2: I sort of booted up, you know, pounding my fist 328 00:17:14,276 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 2: on the table and saying, fifty years later, we should 329 00:17:16,956 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 2: do better than concords, that we should be faster, and 330 00:17:19,436 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 2: d da DA and all these other things. Yeah, And 331 00:17:22,116 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 2: the reality was that wasn't actually necessary. What we needed 332 00:17:25,756 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 2: was a pragmatic starting point that we could then continue 333 00:17:28,996 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 2: to iterate and innovate, you know. And overture is not 334 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 2: the be all end all of supersonic airplanes. It's the 335 00:17:33,876 --> 00:17:36,636 Speaker 2: version one. And we can do a version one point one, 336 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:39,476 Speaker 2: and we can do a version two. And the thing 337 00:17:39,476 --> 00:17:46,556 Speaker 2: that matters is ensure ensuring that version one is sufficiently 338 00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:50,036 Speaker 2: pragmatic that we can we can birth it. Yeah. So, 339 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:55,316 Speaker 2: how fast did concord go? Two point zero? Actually two 340 00:17:55,356 --> 00:17:57,476 Speaker 2: point oh two actually is the precise number. 341 00:17:57,516 --> 00:18:00,556 Speaker 1: And you've you've made your piece with building a first 342 00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:02,436 Speaker 1: plane that goes slower than the Concord. 343 00:18:03,636 --> 00:18:06,076 Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess officially we've made our piece 344 00:18:06,116 --> 00:18:09,356 Speaker 2: with it not in your heart on the spread, not 345 00:18:09,996 --> 00:18:12,076 Speaker 2: in my heart like because you know, mock one point 346 00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:14,276 Speaker 2: seven just doesn't roll off the tongue like mock two. 347 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:16,516 Speaker 1: No two, Mock two sounds way cooler. 348 00:18:16,756 --> 00:18:18,876 Speaker 2: Mock two sounds way cooler, you know, And for a while, 349 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 2: by license, TAG said mock two point two, and I 350 00:18:22,036 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 2: learned that I should really never put a technical design 351 00:18:24,676 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 2: parameter on a vanity plate. That was a That was 352 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 2: a That was a bad decision because it made it hard. 353 00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:30,916 Speaker 2: It made it harder for me to admit the difficult 354 00:18:30,916 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 2: truth when every. 355 00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:34,156 Speaker 1: Day when you went out and thought your car, you 356 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:37,516 Speaker 1: were getting mocked by your failure in relatively. 357 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:41,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, m A h E D yes, oh very good, 358 00:18:41,556 --> 00:18:41,996 Speaker 2: very good. 359 00:18:42,036 --> 00:18:44,356 Speaker 1: That should be your new vanity plate to keep you humble. 360 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:48,876 Speaker 2: No, now it just says supersonic because so long as 361 00:18:48,916 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 2: I bust mock one, I'm good. 362 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 1: Still to come on the show. How much more time 363 00:18:55,756 --> 00:18:58,676 Speaker 1: and money will it take to build a supersonic plane 364 00:18:58,796 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 1: that can carry paying passengers? Also, what might go wrong? 365 00:19:12,436 --> 00:19:16,036 Speaker 1: So you're building the airliner, you're also sort of building 366 00:19:16,196 --> 00:19:18,996 Speaker 1: the jets, right, I know, you were working with Rolls 367 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 1: Royce and then which makes a lot of jets for 368 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:24,556 Speaker 1: airplanes now, and then you stopped working with Rolls Royce. 369 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:30,116 Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me about what you've got to do, 370 00:19:30,356 --> 00:19:33,236 Speaker 1: Like what's the next big step in terms of the 371 00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 1: airplane the jets, Like what do you got to do next? 372 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:36,476 Speaker 1: And when do you? 373 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, so step one, scalop those jet engines. Step two, 374 00:19:39,716 --> 00:19:43,196 Speaker 2: scalop the airplanes. Step three, put it all together, prove 375 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:47,476 Speaker 2: to ourselves and to our regulator in the public that 376 00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:51,836 Speaker 2: it's safe, and then go carry passengers. And so you 377 00:19:51,876 --> 00:19:54,996 Speaker 2: mentioned you mentioned the whole jet engine thing. Yeah, we 378 00:19:55,276 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 2: actually when I started, our plan was to go build 379 00:19:58,996 --> 00:20:02,036 Speaker 2: our own jet engines, just the same way SpaceX builds 380 00:20:02,076 --> 00:20:05,916 Speaker 2: their own engines. And then we got, uh distracted. I 381 00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:08,596 Speaker 2: let us get distracted by this sort of sexy notion 382 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 2: that would be able to take Rolls Race engine and 383 00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:15,716 Speaker 2: just modify it working with Rolls Royce, and that turned 384 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:17,076 Speaker 2: out to be just a terrible idea. 385 00:20:17,716 --> 00:20:22,116 Speaker 1: Huh. Most companies that build airplanes don't build their own jets. Right, 386 00:20:22,156 --> 00:20:24,756 Speaker 1: It's not a crazy idea to say we're going to 387 00:20:24,756 --> 00:20:26,596 Speaker 1: build airplanes and we're going to let people who are 388 00:20:26,596 --> 00:20:28,236 Speaker 1: really good at building jets, build the jets. 389 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you look back far enough in time, 390 00:20:30,956 --> 00:20:35,116 Speaker 2: it turned out Boeing, United Airlines, and Pratt and Whitney 391 00:20:35,156 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 2: the jet engine company, were actually all the same company. 392 00:20:38,396 --> 00:20:41,916 Speaker 2: H they were all they were vertically integrated from the 393 00:20:41,996 --> 00:20:44,476 Speaker 2: airline through to the jet engine or I guess back 394 00:20:44,516 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 2: that it wasn't jet engines, it was Piston engines. But 395 00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:50,116 Speaker 2: I think that was actually the national state of the industry. 396 00:20:50,236 --> 00:20:52,276 Speaker 2: And they got broken apart, not because they wanted to. 397 00:20:52,316 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 2: But there was an airmail scandal in the early nineteen thirties, 398 00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:57,836 Speaker 2: the outcome of which was the government split them up. Oh. 399 00:20:57,916 --> 00:21:00,996 Speaker 1: Interesting, an airmail scandal. You don't hear about so many 400 00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 1: airmail scandals there. 401 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:04,756 Speaker 2: There was the airmail scandal of nineteen thirty two, where 402 00:21:04,836 --> 00:21:07,836 Speaker 2: what was going on was basically the US government was 403 00:21:07,876 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 2: subsidizing airmail because they wanted to get off the ground. 404 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:13,036 Speaker 1: So to speak. 405 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:19,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, it's it's so the the retail price 406 00:21:19,196 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 2: of airmail was less than the airlines were getting paid. Yeah. Uh, 407 00:21:23,476 --> 00:21:25,396 Speaker 2: And so the airlines found they could make more money 408 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:27,916 Speaker 2: by going to the post office and mailing bricks. Oh. 409 00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:30,916 Speaker 2: I love that that's and so the you know, and 410 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:34,196 Speaker 2: that the Postmaster General was corrupt, like everybody was on 411 00:21:34,236 --> 00:21:36,436 Speaker 2: the take. It was nasty. And then and then the 412 00:21:36,436 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 2: the industry, everybody was kind of at fault here, and 413 00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 2: the industry took the blame. 414 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:44,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, in yours telling is why jets companies that make 415 00:21:44,596 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 1: jets are different than the companies that make the airplanes 416 00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:49,556 Speaker 1: they go on. It's a bull claim. Yeah, well, yeah, 417 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:50,396 Speaker 1: and I think there is. 418 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:53,996 Speaker 2: You know, industries tend to go through cycles where vertical 419 00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:57,436 Speaker 2: integration is either a good strategy or a bad strategy. 420 00:21:57,556 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 2: And there's a there's a great book on this called 421 00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 2: The Innovators Solution, But they talk about under what circumstances 422 00:22:04,156 --> 00:22:07,276 Speaker 2: vertical integration is smart versus working with suppliers. 423 00:22:07,516 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 1: What was it Jim Barksdale line in the nineties, there's 424 00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:13,556 Speaker 1: two businesses, bundling and unbundling. It's like that. 425 00:22:13,796 --> 00:22:15,676 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard that, but I think it's kind of true, 426 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 2: and it's it's contextual. Yeah, And the long story short, 427 00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:23,916 Speaker 2: when when the current state of the art technology is 428 00:22:23,996 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 2: good enough for the in purpose, uh you, unbundling and 429 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:31,796 Speaker 2: not vertical integration tends to make sense when the when 430 00:22:31,796 --> 00:22:34,916 Speaker 2: the components need to advance and the integration and the 431 00:22:34,916 --> 00:22:38,196 Speaker 2: final product is important, then vertical integration really matters. And 432 00:22:38,196 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 2: so I think they're kind of two threads of the story. 433 00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 2: One is, it's probably not a good idea for a 434 00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:44,876 Speaker 2: brand new startup to put all of its eggs in 435 00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:47,196 Speaker 2: the basket of a like one hundred year old company 436 00:22:47,596 --> 00:22:50,836 Speaker 2: that like is a risk averse, doesn't want to make changes, 437 00:22:51,436 --> 00:22:54,476 Speaker 2: isn't fast moving, maybe you know, it isn't sure what 438 00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:55,916 Speaker 2: it really wants to be, right, so. 439 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:57,996 Speaker 1: You're putting all of your eggs in your own basket, 440 00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: which is strong, certainly. So uh so, what like what's 441 00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:09,836 Speaker 1: the next mile post you got to hit? Like, what's 442 00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:11,356 Speaker 1: the big, big next hurdle. 443 00:23:11,636 --> 00:23:13,236 Speaker 2: We'll find we'll find out around the end of this 444 00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:16,636 Speaker 2: year whether our jet engine's working. We're building the first 445 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:18,876 Speaker 2: one right now, and we'll see if it works. And 446 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:22,596 Speaker 2: so this this will be a very very large jet 447 00:23:22,636 --> 00:23:24,676 Speaker 2: engine core. You know, like it'll be roughly four feet 448 00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:27,476 Speaker 2: in diameter. This is not a small piece of hardware. 449 00:23:27,716 --> 00:23:30,036 Speaker 2: You weigh well over ten thousand pounds. This is a 450 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 2: very complex piece of turbomachinery. And we'll we'll we'll fire 451 00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:35,876 Speaker 2: it up and we'll we'll see what's we'll see what's working, 452 00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 2: and then next next year. So that's the core of 453 00:23:38,196 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 2: the engine, and a year later our goal is to 454 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:43,476 Speaker 2: have a you know, a full up engine, not just 455 00:23:43,556 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 2: the core, but the fan and the what's called the 456 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:49,316 Speaker 2: low pressure system as well. Okay, but the core, the 457 00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 2: core is actually the really hard part. So we're starting. 458 00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 2: We're starting with the hardest part, and. 459 00:23:52,916 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 1: Then in parallel you're building the plane or designing the plane. 460 00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're actually done designing the plane. Okay, So we 461 00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 2: we froze, froze the design of the overture I think 462 00:24:06,556 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 2: a week after XB one's final flight. Okay, And so 463 00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:13,316 Speaker 2: that means, you know, I proverbally broke the engineer's pencils. 464 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:16,396 Speaker 1: So just now, just in the last several weeks, you 465 00:24:16,636 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 1: froze the design of the plane. You said, this is it, 466 00:24:18,756 --> 00:24:20,276 Speaker 1: this is the plane we're going to build. This is 467 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:20,916 Speaker 1: this is it? 468 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 2: Right? You know, like it's it's very easy for ambitious 469 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 2: engineers to want to optimize forever. Sure, and we said 470 00:24:27,756 --> 00:24:30,716 Speaker 2: this is good enough for version one. It's time to 471 00:24:30,836 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 2: it's time to stop tweaking the design and start doing 472 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 2: the detailed engineering so we can start building this thing, 473 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:40,996 Speaker 2: tell me about what it's going to look like. So, Uh, 474 00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 2: supersonic jets fit in some ways sculpted by physics. They're 475 00:24:46,076 --> 00:24:48,156 Speaker 2: going to be long and skinny, They're going to have 476 00:24:48,196 --> 00:24:52,196 Speaker 2: a triangular kind of delta wing. So in a certain sense, 477 00:24:52,196 --> 00:24:54,596 Speaker 2: overture is going to need to look concord like because 478 00:24:54,636 --> 00:24:56,556 Speaker 2: physics says it needs to look concord like. 479 00:24:57,156 --> 00:24:57,276 Speaker 1: Uh. 480 00:24:57,436 --> 00:25:01,436 Speaker 2: But the details are the details that come so far forward. Uh. 481 00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:05,476 Speaker 2: One of the one of the big aerodynamic advances versus 482 00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:09,476 Speaker 2: concord is something called area ruling, which basically said the 483 00:25:09,516 --> 00:25:11,636 Speaker 2: fuselage needs to be big in the front and small 484 00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 2: in the back. And uh. And so overture looks it 485 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:16,316 Speaker 2: looks a little bit like a concord in a seven 486 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 2: forty seven had a love child. Okay, so it's it's 487 00:25:20,556 --> 00:25:22,636 Speaker 2: not literally double deck in the front, but it's bigger 488 00:25:22,636 --> 00:25:25,876 Speaker 2: in the front and it's skinnier in the back. And 489 00:25:26,076 --> 00:25:29,796 Speaker 2: this leads for a very interesting canvas. And I can't 490 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:32,516 Speaker 2: tell you yet what exactly it's like at the front 491 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:34,916 Speaker 2: of the airplane, because we've got we've got something we 492 00:25:34,996 --> 00:25:38,116 Speaker 2: invented that I'm incredibly excited about. That we haven't revealed yet, 493 00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:40,516 Speaker 2: but I think it's gonna be. I think it's gonna 494 00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:42,796 Speaker 2: be a big wow factor. People look at them, say, 495 00:25:42,796 --> 00:25:45,116 Speaker 2: wait a minute, you got that to fit in a 496 00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 2: skinny supersonic chat an elephant? 497 00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 1: What is it? 498 00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 2: Uh? It is some It is something that will be 499 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:56,636 Speaker 2: delightful for passengers. 500 00:25:56,956 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 1: A waterfall. I'll stop guessing, but I'm curious. 501 00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:05,956 Speaker 2: So it's I'll tell you right now. It's not a 502 00:26:05,996 --> 00:26:06,476 Speaker 2: hot tub. 503 00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 1: Okay, cold plunge. Cold plunge is the new hot tub. 504 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:15,516 Speaker 2: That's right. There's a cold plunge in the front of 505 00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 2: the air airplane and the hot tub of the back 506 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:18,716 Speaker 2: of the airplane. You can actually have both. 507 00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 1: So what what do you got to do to get 508 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:26,836 Speaker 1: through the very non trivial regulatory hurdles to get from 509 00:26:27,316 --> 00:26:29,756 Speaker 1: drawing up a plane into a plane that the FAA 510 00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:34,116 Speaker 1: and analogous regulators say yes, this can fly with commercial passengers. 511 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 2: Well, we just have to prove it safe. 512 00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot in that. 513 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 2: Just there is a lot of there's a lot of 514 00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 2: that just I mean that this will be one of 515 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:46,316 Speaker 2: the most complex safety critical machines ever built. But all 516 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 2: of the rules are published, so we know exactly what 517 00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:52,516 Speaker 2: we have to go do, and the certification is just 518 00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 2: proving that we did it. And so that that will 519 00:26:56,196 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 2: involve about five thousand hours of flight testing and many 520 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:03,436 Speaker 2: more hours of ground testing. And so just to give 521 00:27:03,436 --> 00:27:06,916 Speaker 2: you a concrete sense of what this is like on 522 00:27:06,996 --> 00:27:09,156 Speaker 2: the ground, you know, we will we will build a 523 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 2: a kind of a flightless bird, you know, a copy 524 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:15,076 Speaker 2: of the airplane that will never fly, and will load 525 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 2: up the wings with hydraulic presses and we'll bend them 526 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:21,316 Speaker 2: until they break. It will make sure that they don't 527 00:27:21,356 --> 00:27:25,236 Speaker 2: break before they're supposed to. Basically, you have to prove 528 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 2: that they can take one point five times the load 529 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:33,556 Speaker 2: they will ever see under the most extreme case before failing. 530 00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:35,396 Speaker 2: You know, that's one example. You do in the ground, 531 00:27:35,436 --> 00:27:37,036 Speaker 2: and you and then the air you fly it through 532 00:27:37,076 --> 00:27:40,316 Speaker 2: all the most extreme flight conditions. You make sure it 533 00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:42,316 Speaker 2: can handle bad weather. You can make sure that it 534 00:27:42,356 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 2: flies through, you know, a snowstorm, the deicne can keep 535 00:27:46,796 --> 00:27:50,756 Speaker 2: up with the icing. You shoot a chicken at the 536 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 2: jet engines and make sure that when you know, if 537 00:27:55,276 --> 00:27:58,396 Speaker 2: you get a bird strike, that either the engine doesn't 538 00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:01,916 Speaker 2: fail or it fails in a non catastrophic way. That's 539 00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:03,476 Speaker 2: actually one of the most difficult tests. 540 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:07,356 Speaker 1: Uh. So okay, so you got to do all these things. 541 00:28:07,916 --> 00:28:10,156 Speaker 1: What is your current target date for when I can 542 00:28:10,196 --> 00:28:10,716 Speaker 1: buy a ticket? 543 00:28:11,476 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 2: About four years, So our goal is to be ready 544 00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 2: for passengers by the end of twenty twenty nine, so 545 00:28:17,196 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 2: about four four and a half to five years from 546 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 2: where we are today. 547 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:23,876 Speaker 1: Like, playing XP one took longer than you thought, but 548 00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:26,276 Speaker 1: you're still assuming overture is not going to take longer 549 00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:28,556 Speaker 1: than you thought setting them in parallel. 550 00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:31,556 Speaker 2: I mean it's it's mean, it's totally possible overture will 551 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 2: be late. Yeah, I mean, the way these things go, 552 00:28:33,796 --> 00:28:36,836 Speaker 2: it seems likely. Again, this is from ignorance, just looking 553 00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 2: at the nature of projects in many different companies, in 554 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 2: many different settings. Like, plainly, what you're trying to do 555 00:28:41,836 --> 00:28:44,676 Speaker 2: is very hard, and plainly you're only doing it because 556 00:28:44,716 --> 00:28:47,596 Speaker 2: you have some amount of optimism which is required to 557 00:28:47,596 --> 00:28:50,236 Speaker 2: do the job right. And so just from from that 558 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 2: very small amount of data and for like, yeah, I mean, 559 00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:56,596 Speaker 2: you're probably not gonna overestimate that long it will take it. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, 560 00:28:56,756 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 2: it is. It is highly unlikely we will get done 561 00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 2: sooner than we're charge. You're not gonna be done early, right, yes, 562 00:29:02,596 --> 00:29:05,436 Speaker 2: you know. But the one of one of the lessons 563 00:29:05,436 --> 00:29:07,956 Speaker 2: I've learned along the way is is kind of how 564 00:29:07,956 --> 00:29:11,636 Speaker 2: to think about schedules. And uh, I think schedules are 565 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 2: actually misnamed because because nothing ever goes according to plan, 566 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:18,676 Speaker 2: and and what what, it's not a schedule, it's actually 567 00:29:18,676 --> 00:29:20,676 Speaker 2: a work plan. And the point of the work plan 568 00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:25,676 Speaker 2: is to allow the team to respond intelligently the moment 569 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 2: something doesn't go according to plan, which is basically every day. 570 00:29:30,396 --> 00:29:33,996 Speaker 2: And so what we do is we build what's called 571 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:38,156 Speaker 2: a success based schedule, meaning we don't pad it to 572 00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:40,876 Speaker 2: assume that there's going to be failures. Uh, we kind 573 00:29:40,876 --> 00:29:42,436 Speaker 2: of we kind of assume, ever, everything is going to 574 00:29:42,516 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 2: go well, and we assume that we'll be able to 575 00:29:46,116 --> 00:29:49,316 Speaker 2: do things, you know, slightly more efficiently than you know 576 00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:52,196 Speaker 2: than like a Boeing Wood And so there's some optimism 577 00:29:52,276 --> 00:29:54,876 Speaker 2: built into it, and and and many times we realize 578 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 2: that optimism and and and and when we find oops, 579 00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:00,236 Speaker 2: there's something we didn't know about or this was harder 580 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 2: than we expected, then we react to it in the 581 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:06,596 Speaker 2: most efficient way possible. And uh, and that that's what 582 00:30:06,836 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 2: actually results in the fastest possible deliver uh, because nothing, 583 00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:13,116 Speaker 2: nothing ever gets done faster than the amount of time 584 00:30:13,156 --> 00:30:15,396 Speaker 2: you give it. Right, But we'll just take all the 585 00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 2: time there, that's right, because they want to be the 586 00:30:17,596 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 2: best job possible, exactly, And the kind of people who 587 00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:23,956 Speaker 2: come join a supertonic jet startup are incredibly ambitious and 588 00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 2: have very very high standards. So you know, you know, 589 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 2: if if I didn't say, the design is frozen and that's. 590 00:30:29,236 --> 00:30:31,316 Speaker 1: It's a hard trade off, right, It's a hard trade 591 00:30:31,316 --> 00:30:34,036 Speaker 1: off because like there's a million hard optimization problems that 592 00:30:34,076 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 1: people are working on, and there's the kind of meta 593 00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:38,756 Speaker 1: optimization problem of how long do you spend on each. 594 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:41,076 Speaker 2: Thing that's that's right? That's right, And there's like you know, 595 00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 2: when when do you declare good enough? 596 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:43,156 Speaker 1: Yeah? 597 00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:47,596 Speaker 2: Right? And that was I mean there are so many 598 00:30:47,676 --> 00:30:51,276 Speaker 2: stories of you know, really, I think part of my 599 00:30:51,436 --> 00:30:54,756 Speaker 2: role is helped the team decide when's good enough and 600 00:30:54,956 --> 00:30:56,916 Speaker 2: you know, and what things have to be in one 601 00:30:56,956 --> 00:31:00,116 Speaker 2: point zero versus what things we can save for one 602 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:04,556 Speaker 2: point one, and having good judgment about that makes it 603 00:31:04,676 --> 00:31:07,916 Speaker 2: much easier to actually ship one point h Right. 604 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:12,116 Speaker 1: You don't need to build the most perfect supersonic jet ever. 605 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:14,476 Speaker 1: You just need to build on that is safe and reliable. 606 00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:15,596 Speaker 2: That's that's right. 607 00:31:15,876 --> 00:31:20,036 Speaker 1: So let's talk about money. How much have you raised 608 00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:22,676 Speaker 1: and how much do you need to get the first 609 00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:26,396 Speaker 1: one point zero overture flying with ye. 610 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 2: So, a thing I've come to believe is that one 611 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:32,516 Speaker 2: of the most important things in pulling this off is 612 00:31:32,556 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 2: being incredibly efficient with capital. We've raised about six hundred 613 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:41,436 Speaker 2: million dollars, We've spent less than five hundred million dollars, 614 00:31:42,276 --> 00:31:45,556 Speaker 2: and with that we built and flew a supersonic jet 615 00:31:45,836 --> 00:31:48,516 Speaker 2: with a human on board. We designed an airliner, we 616 00:31:48,636 --> 00:31:50,556 Speaker 2: designed an engine, and we did all the other things 617 00:31:50,596 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 2: that started a pass to do over a decade. So 618 00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:55,716 Speaker 2: what does that mean going forward? We need less than 619 00:31:55,756 --> 00:31:58,116 Speaker 2: a billion dollars of investor funding from where we are 620 00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:02,796 Speaker 2: now to finish. 621 00:32:02,916 --> 00:32:04,996 Speaker 1: When you say investor funding, like, are you assuming more 622 00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 1: pre orders or you think for less than a billion 623 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:09,956 Speaker 1: dollars you can actually or less a billion dollars more 624 00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:13,756 Speaker 1: you can actually build a build a plane that's gonna 625 00:32:14,356 --> 00:32:16,196 Speaker 1: take passengers across the ocean. 626 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:19,556 Speaker 2: Yeah. Part of it is being very smart with capital leverage. 627 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:22,636 Speaker 2: You know, you know, so for example, uh, you know, 628 00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,076 Speaker 2: we will be able to go use debt to buy 629 00:32:25,156 --> 00:32:28,636 Speaker 2: capital equipment, right, So, like a lot of production equipment 630 00:32:28,676 --> 00:32:33,716 Speaker 2: will be financed without requiring you know, equity investment from investors, huh. 631 00:32:34,396 --> 00:32:36,276 Speaker 2: And we've we've already been able to do some of that. 632 00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:39,716 Speaker 2: So there's a lot smart financial engineering as part of 633 00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:42,316 Speaker 2: the solution. The other part of the solution is being 634 00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:44,916 Speaker 2: incredibly efficient in execution. You know. I still tell that 635 00:32:44,956 --> 00:32:46,396 Speaker 2: by the way that this is in some ways the 636 00:32:46,436 --> 00:32:47,396 Speaker 2: most difficult thing. 637 00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:50,556 Speaker 1: Spending the money intelligently basically. 638 00:32:50,236 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the way I frame it for our team internally, 639 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:54,276 Speaker 2: and we're just very open about this. I say, our 640 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:57,076 Speaker 2: single biggest risk as a company is we don't get 641 00:32:57,116 --> 00:32:58,916 Speaker 2: done for an obtainable amount of money. 642 00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:02,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because the physics. We've known the physics for 643 00:33:02,836 --> 00:33:06,396 Speaker 1: whatever fifty years or more. Right, Like, plainly one can 644 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:09,956 Speaker 1: build a supersonic jet. But building it cheaply enough in 645 00:33:09,996 --> 00:33:12,116 Speaker 1: your case to survive, right and then in the long 646 00:33:12,196 --> 00:33:16,476 Speaker 1: run to have it be commercially viable is the hard part, right. 647 00:33:16,796 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, So one half of this is how do we 648 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:22,676 Speaker 2: execute really efficiently. How do we have a small team 649 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:26,956 Speaker 2: of world class engineers with incredibly good software tools, and 650 00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:28,756 Speaker 2: we're using a lot of software, and we're using some 651 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:31,996 Speaker 2: ai uh such that one engineer can do the work 652 00:33:32,036 --> 00:33:35,996 Speaker 2: of ten, and that allows us to be really efficient 653 00:33:36,036 --> 00:33:38,596 Speaker 2: with our money. And we are just absolutely miserly about 654 00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:41,236 Speaker 2: money on one hand. On the other hand, we need 655 00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:44,556 Speaker 2: to have a capital structure that's very good for investors 656 00:33:45,036 --> 00:33:48,996 Speaker 2: and that leverages non diluted financing sources, be it customer 657 00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:53,276 Speaker 2: prepayments or plant and equipment debt, or public support to 658 00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:55,396 Speaker 2: kind of lever up those investor dollars to make the 659 00:33:55,436 --> 00:33:56,796 Speaker 2: whole thing economically viable. 660 00:33:57,396 --> 00:33:58,716 Speaker 1: What's public support mean? 661 00:34:00,036 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 2: So we're we had a fantastic package that we got 662 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 2: from the state of North Carolina that funded the superfactory 663 00:34:08,916 --> 00:34:12,556 Speaker 2: and Greensboro, where the state of North Carolina so wanted 664 00:34:12,556 --> 00:34:14,996 Speaker 2: Boom to come and build the airplane there that just 665 00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:17,716 Speaker 2: as they welcomed the Right Brothers one hundred years ago, 666 00:34:18,076 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 2: they welcomed us, and and that that basically paid for 667 00:34:22,156 --> 00:34:25,676 Speaker 2: the entire site prep and build out of the superfactory. 668 00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:28,916 Speaker 2: So that way, and we were incredibly grateful for that, 669 00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:30,476 Speaker 2: and I, you know, I want to make sure we 670 00:34:30,556 --> 00:34:32,956 Speaker 2: pay it forward in North Carolina. 671 00:34:34,316 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 1: I've heard you say on an interview you did in 672 00:34:37,476 --> 00:34:40,276 Speaker 1: the last year or so that you underestimated how hard 673 00:34:40,316 --> 00:34:43,676 Speaker 1: it was going to be to build the company to 674 00:34:43,676 --> 00:34:47,116 Speaker 1: build a supersonic jet. And I'm curious, if you look 675 00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:50,476 Speaker 1: forward now to going from here to you know, having 676 00:34:50,556 --> 00:34:53,956 Speaker 1: passengers on a jet, do you think you're underestimating how 677 00:34:53,996 --> 00:34:54,796 Speaker 1: hard that's going to be. 678 00:34:56,196 --> 00:34:58,156 Speaker 2: I am sure there are problems that we will have 679 00:34:58,196 --> 00:34:59,356 Speaker 2: that I don't know about today. 680 00:34:59,556 --> 00:35:02,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a different I mean, it's a weird question 681 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 1: because if you're underestimating it, then you would revise your estimation. 682 00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:07,916 Speaker 1: It's like why is the stock market wrong? 683 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:09,636 Speaker 2: But like, yeah, I don't know. 684 00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:13,036 Speaker 1: I mean maybe you have to underestimate it, Like I 685 00:35:13,116 --> 00:35:14,636 Speaker 1: don't know. You know, people always sy if I knew 686 00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:15,796 Speaker 1: how hard it was going to be, I wouldn't have 687 00:35:15,796 --> 00:35:16,116 Speaker 1: done it. 688 00:35:16,196 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 2: And I don't know if they really mean that, but 689 00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 2: I think some people mean it and it's really and 690 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:24,636 Speaker 2: I find that really sad, and I don't I don't 691 00:35:24,636 --> 00:35:26,516 Speaker 2: mean that in a sarcastic way. I mean like, actually, 692 00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:30,076 Speaker 2: like boy, like this startup stuff is so hard. It 693 00:35:30,156 --> 00:35:32,036 Speaker 2: just kills me that someone will put in all of 694 00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 2: the effort required to birth a new company and a 695 00:35:34,236 --> 00:35:36,996 Speaker 2: new product from scratch, and it is really hard. It's 696 00:35:37,036 --> 00:35:40,436 Speaker 2: like chewing on glass, and then to do it for 697 00:35:40,476 --> 00:35:42,476 Speaker 2: something they're like, wow, I wish I hadn't, Like that 698 00:35:42,596 --> 00:35:45,116 Speaker 2: is really sad. And by the way, I have my 699 00:35:45,196 --> 00:35:47,916 Speaker 2: chewing on glass days for sure, and I'm sure I'll 700 00:35:47,956 --> 00:35:51,116 Speaker 2: have more. And the worst of it, the worst of 701 00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:52,836 Speaker 2: it is when I look in the mirror and I'm 702 00:35:52,876 --> 00:35:55,556 Speaker 2: not sure whether I'm up for the job. Yeah, I mean, 703 00:35:55,596 --> 00:35:57,476 Speaker 2: I think, like boys, someone better than me could have 704 00:35:57,476 --> 00:35:59,516 Speaker 2: done this, But I don't know if I can, you know, 705 00:35:59,636 --> 00:36:01,996 Speaker 2: Or I look at a problem we have and it's 706 00:36:01,996 --> 00:36:04,636 Speaker 2: not you know, and it's it's very much my responsibility 707 00:36:04,676 --> 00:36:09,196 Speaker 2: and my error. Like those are the hardest days, and 708 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:14,996 Speaker 2: and yet I care so darn much about this that 709 00:36:14,996 --> 00:36:19,556 Speaker 2: that it's worth that personal hell to give it everything 710 00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:21,756 Speaker 2: I've got, and I don't. I don't regret it, even 711 00:36:21,796 --> 00:36:23,676 Speaker 2: the days where I'm like, boy, I don't know whether 712 00:36:23,716 --> 00:36:26,516 Speaker 2: we're going to get through this. And We've had a 713 00:36:26,556 --> 00:36:28,676 Speaker 2: bunch of those days, and I think I'd be foolish 714 00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:29,836 Speaker 2: to think that we won't have them again. 715 00:36:30,316 --> 00:36:35,436 Speaker 1: Why why is supersonic flight your thing? Like, why is 716 00:36:35,436 --> 00:36:37,796 Speaker 1: that what you have devoted your professional life to? 717 00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:41,956 Speaker 2: One of the principles I have for myself now is 718 00:36:42,316 --> 00:36:45,956 Speaker 2: I only want to work on things that might not 719 00:36:46,076 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 2: happen if I didn't work on them. And if the 720 00:36:48,116 --> 00:36:50,036 Speaker 2: world followed that, we'd have a lot less photo sharing 721 00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:52,556 Speaker 2: apps and fewer AI companies. But maybe things like traffic 722 00:36:52,596 --> 00:36:56,396 Speaker 2: would be solved, huh. And you know, for me specifically 723 00:36:56,396 --> 00:37:00,556 Speaker 2: with supersonic flight, my kids had a grandfather who lived 724 00:37:00,556 --> 00:37:02,636 Speaker 2: in Hong Kong, you know, eighteen hours from us in 725 00:37:02,716 --> 00:37:04,916 Speaker 2: Denver that they got to meet maybe three or four 726 00:37:04,916 --> 00:37:07,516 Speaker 2: times their entire life, and so they never got to 727 00:37:07,516 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 2: know him. And I grew up with my grandfather ninety 728 00:37:10,556 --> 00:37:13,236 Speaker 2: minutes away, and I got to spend every weekend with him, 729 00:37:13,276 --> 00:37:15,676 Speaker 2: and I'm a different person because of that. And so 730 00:37:15,916 --> 00:37:19,236 Speaker 2: I've had a lot of personal experiences that basically say, hey, 731 00:37:19,276 --> 00:37:22,436 Speaker 2: speed's not about saving time or being really cool, although 732 00:37:22,436 --> 00:37:25,076 Speaker 2: it is about saving time and being really cool. Yeah, 733 00:37:25,116 --> 00:37:27,036 Speaker 2: speed is about what you choose to do or not do, 734 00:37:27,516 --> 00:37:29,476 Speaker 2: And there are all kinds of things in the world 735 00:37:29,596 --> 00:37:33,676 Speaker 2: that don't happen because flights are too long. 736 00:37:37,716 --> 00:37:50,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. Okay, 737 00:37:50,316 --> 00:37:54,236 Speaker 1: let's finish with the lightning ground and then before you 738 00:37:54,276 --> 00:37:55,836 Speaker 1: started the company. You made a list of things you 739 00:37:55,836 --> 00:37:58,116 Speaker 1: wanted to work on, and you sort of rank ordered 740 00:37:58,156 --> 00:37:59,756 Speaker 1: them and how happy it would make you to work 741 00:37:59,756 --> 00:38:03,636 Speaker 1: on them. Obviously supersonic jet was one, but what was two? 742 00:38:04,916 --> 00:38:08,996 Speaker 1: It fell off really quickly. It's a distant second. 743 00:38:10,356 --> 00:38:14,876 Speaker 2: I had a rental car company idea. Huh, that would 744 00:38:14,916 --> 00:38:17,876 Speaker 2: be like a like your rental car picks you up 745 00:38:17,916 --> 00:38:19,356 Speaker 2: like an uber, then you get in and drive it 746 00:38:19,716 --> 00:38:21,956 Speaker 2: like it's not I would love that product. I don't 747 00:38:21,956 --> 00:38:24,876 Speaker 2: think it's a great business idea. What was the scariest 748 00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:29,116 Speaker 2: part of getting your pilot's license. Oh, I remember that 749 00:38:29,236 --> 00:38:31,876 Speaker 2: very first moment of takeoff and what turned out to 750 00:38:31,916 --> 00:38:37,076 Speaker 2: be Larry Elson's old airplane, And there was this moment 751 00:38:37,076 --> 00:38:38,916 Speaker 2: of like, holy crap, I'm scared because I got my 752 00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:39,996 Speaker 2: life in my own hands. 753 00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:42,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like when you learn to drive a car. 754 00:38:42,236 --> 00:38:42,756 Speaker 2: I remember that. 755 00:38:42,756 --> 00:38:43,956 Speaker 1: When I learned to drive a car, is like I 756 00:38:43,996 --> 00:38:46,716 Speaker 1: could just swerve into the oncoming lane right now, right. 757 00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:48,996 Speaker 2: It felt really fragile, like I've got my life in 758 00:38:48,996 --> 00:38:51,476 Speaker 2: my own hands. But then there was the other side 759 00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:54,516 Speaker 2: of that same coin, which is this is really cool, 760 00:38:54,556 --> 00:38:55,996 Speaker 2: I've got my life in my own hands. 761 00:38:56,356 --> 00:38:59,476 Speaker 1: Uh, Huh. What was the scariest part of working with 762 00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:02,236 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos? Uh. 763 00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:05,796 Speaker 2: Jeff was great to work with and I was incredibly 764 00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:07,636 Speaker 2: privileged in my early twenties. I got to work on 765 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:12,036 Speaker 2: something he cared about. Uh uh. And Jeff one of 766 00:39:12,156 --> 00:39:14,316 Speaker 2: one of the one of the best things about Jeff 767 00:39:14,396 --> 00:39:16,516 Speaker 2: is he very fairly calls the balls and the strikes 768 00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:23,556 Speaker 2: and he and he rewards honesty and accountability. So I 769 00:39:23,596 --> 00:39:25,916 Speaker 2: remember at one point, this is actually my very first 770 00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:29,636 Speaker 2: time presenting to him, and it's the presentations overall, going well, 771 00:39:30,316 --> 00:39:32,756 Speaker 2: this is before he ban PowerPoint and I get to 772 00:39:32,796 --> 00:39:34,836 Speaker 2: some slide and he says, well, why didn't you do X? 773 00:39:37,036 --> 00:39:41,156 Speaker 2: And X was actually a pretty good idea, And I said, well, 774 00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,756 Speaker 2: we didn't think of that and and and he starts 775 00:39:44,836 --> 00:39:48,556 Speaker 2: laughing that like famous big Jeff Bezos laugh And he says, 776 00:39:48,596 --> 00:39:50,636 Speaker 2: that's a great answer. It's true all the time, but 777 00:39:50,676 --> 00:39:53,356 Speaker 2: no one will ever say it. He understands that anybody 778 00:39:53,396 --> 00:39:56,076 Speaker 2: sufficiently ambitious is going to make mistakes, and what matters 779 00:39:56,116 --> 00:39:58,236 Speaker 2: is to own him and learn from him. And he 780 00:39:58,236 --> 00:40:00,476 Speaker 2: always rewarded that. And that's that's something I try to 781 00:40:01,316 --> 00:40:03,116 Speaker 2: emulate myself as a as a leader. 782 00:40:03,916 --> 00:40:09,276 Speaker 1: Okay, briefly, let's do a few overrated or underrated questions 783 00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:13,636 Speaker 1: for jet travel checking luggage overrated or underrated? 784 00:40:14,356 --> 00:40:16,996 Speaker 2: Underrated. The way this should work is you take your 785 00:40:17,076 --> 00:40:20,156 Speaker 2: Uber to the airport, someone grabs your bag from the trunk. 786 00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:22,396 Speaker 2: You go through the airport only with what you actually 787 00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:24,756 Speaker 2: want with you on the airplane. When you arrive on 788 00:40:24,796 --> 00:40:26,676 Speaker 2: the other side, you go to your Uber and your 789 00:40:26,716 --> 00:40:28,116 Speaker 2: check bag is already in your trunk. 790 00:40:29,476 --> 00:40:33,076 Speaker 1: That's a compelling dream. Rated or underrated. 791 00:40:33,076 --> 00:40:37,316 Speaker 2: The window seat, I think it's highly rated and underrated. 792 00:40:37,436 --> 00:40:39,156 Speaker 2: Like I am glued to that window. 793 00:40:39,836 --> 00:40:41,956 Speaker 1: I love highly rated but still underrated things. So I 794 00:40:41,996 --> 00:40:46,236 Speaker 1: feel about Bob Dylan neck pillows overrated or underrated. 795 00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:48,956 Speaker 2: It's not for me under overrated. 796 00:40:49,076 --> 00:40:58,516 Speaker 1: Same. Blake Schole is the founder and CEO of Boom Supersonic. 797 00:40:59,316 --> 00:41:02,596 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Cheng. It was 798 00:41:02,836 --> 00:41:06,356 Speaker 1: edited by Lyddy jeen Kott and engineered by Sarah Brugeer. 799 00:41:06,796 --> 00:41:10,236 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot f M. 800 00:41:10,516 --> 00:41:12,836 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Oldstein and we'll be back next week with 801 00:41:12,916 --> 00:41:14,436 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Popula