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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We heard the shots ring out.

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Speaker 1: At first it sounded like fireworks. It was just like dude,

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Speaker 1: and then it went closer together, doo doo doo. So

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Speaker 1: he asked me if that was shot, and I told

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Speaker 1: him yes, because when I had looked out, people were

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Speaker 1: coming in crouching down screaming there was a shooter, and

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Speaker 1: so we took off running. We went towards the bat

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Speaker 1: because the employees were telling us to go towards the

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Speaker 1: BAT because there was a shooter. And when we did,

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Speaker 1: they held open the doors because there was elderly. We

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Speaker 1: were trying to help them out while trying to run

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Speaker 1: ourselves and kids. And when we finally got towards the

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Speaker 1: stock room and they told us to exit the building.

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Speaker 1: When we did, we went into the freight containers, the

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Speaker 1: steel containers that come on the back of the trains,

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Speaker 1: and they told us to hide on there, and when

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Speaker 1: we did, it was about twenty minutes. I passed by,

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Speaker 1: and then we were trying to come out because the

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Speaker 1: elderly and the kids were getting hot sweating. So when

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Speaker 1: it came out, we heard more shots. The employees told

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Speaker 1: us to go back into the freight containers, and then

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Speaker 1: when we went back in, then they told us like

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Speaker 1: ten minutes later to come on out and hurry and

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Speaker 1: go on the side of the building. So we went

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Speaker 1: on the side of the building. Then we took off

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Speaker 1: because we didn't know what to do from there, so

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Speaker 1: we started walking down the side of the road. We

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Speaker 1: went to Accura to go relax and try and get

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Speaker 1: everything situated because the cops were barely coming at that time.

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Speaker 1: Our country in morning after mass shooting's rock so many

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Speaker 1: victims of the El Paso Walmart massacre include an army veteran,

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Speaker 1: a hero mother who dies shielding her baby boy, her

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Speaker 1: husband who had been building them a new home across

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Speaker 1: the country in Dayton, another mass shooting. Dayton gunman Connor Bets,

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Speaker 1: just twenty four years old, had apparently created a hit

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Speaker 1: list of people he wanted to rape and murder in school.

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Speaker 1: This started years ago. What are we going to do?

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Speaker 1: You just heard the sound of Keana long survivor what

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Speaker 1: about the others? What about the others that died? And what,

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Speaker 1: if anything can we learn? I'm Nancy Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for beating with us. I want

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Speaker 1: to go straight out to Dave mac syndicated talk show host,

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Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Dave in El Paso.

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Speaker 1: What happened? We had a young twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: man show up at this Walmart anchor store of a

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Speaker 1: mall and starts shooting people in the parking lot. Nancy.

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Speaker 1: We actually have witnesses from inside the store saying they

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Speaker 1: could hear it at a distance. They could hear the

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Speaker 1: shooting taking place in the parking lot. He comes straight

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Speaker 1: into the store, He's got the headphones on, he's got

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Speaker 1: the gun pointed, and he levels it at the first

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Speaker 1: person he sees walking into that store, and then indiscriminately

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Speaker 1: those aisle by aisle shooting and shooting and shooting. It

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Speaker 1: went on. For friends at ABC, Marcus Moore. The first

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Speaker 1: call of an active shooter coming at ten o'clock this

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Speaker 1: morning at the CLO This to mall in El Paso, Texas.

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Speaker 1: The store packed with morning shoppers. Alpact units to the units,

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Speaker 1: please make witnesses say, a man wearing cargo pants and

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Speaker 1: carrying a rifle begins shooting as he makes his way

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Speaker 1: through the parking lot and into the store. As we're running.

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Speaker 1: You could hear because he's in parking lot. So you

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Speaker 1: started running the back. You could hear gunshots changing outside

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Speaker 1: like you clip outside, you like you start clipping, but

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Speaker 1: like that change outside to inside. So he's coming inside.

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Speaker 1: The gunman targeting his victims one by one in cold blood.

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Speaker 1: One witness telling ABC News it was like the gunman

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Speaker 1: was on a mission. Police racing to the scene. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure if there was one or several shooters. This person

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Speaker 1: trying to get out as first responders rush, panic shoppers

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Speaker 1: recording their escapes. Again, the nation in mourning today after

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Speaker 1: two mass shootings. Straight out to Ellen klaurin Crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter, we're talking about what happened in

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Speaker 1: El Paso and the Walmart shooting, but what about Dayton, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Less than less than twenty four hours after

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Speaker 1: the carnage in El Paso one around one am Sunday morning,

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Speaker 1: in Dayton, another shooting happens again in the entertainment, an

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Speaker 1: arts district where people are going out to enjoy themselves

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Speaker 1: for a night. A gunman opened fire outside bars and

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Speaker 1: restaurants and kills nine people. I'm just overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: with what is happening. I want you to take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends over at Fox News. I got

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Speaker 1: everybody come at the twenty six now confirmed hurt. After that,

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Speaker 1: gunman opened fire outside of Popular Bar right around brown

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Speaker 1: one am the Eastern time. Police day. The suspects had

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Speaker 1: a long gone and war body armor officers shot him

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Speaker 1: within one minute of that first shots fired. Call the

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Speaker 1: Mayor of Dayton, commending first responders just moments ago. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is a terribly sad day for our city. I

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Speaker 1: am amazed by the quick response of Dayton police that

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Speaker 1: saved literally hundreds of lives this morning. The FBI is

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Speaker 1: on scene so far, no word on a motive. It's

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Speaker 1: almost too much to take in. Either one of these

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Speaker 1: is overwhelming, but two in the space of just a

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Speaker 1: few hours. Back to Dave Mac, syndicated talk show host

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Speaker 1: and crime online dot com investigative reporter Dave Mac, it's

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Speaker 1: hard to go back and forth between these two shootings.

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Speaker 1: The closest thing I can compare it to is a

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Speaker 1: mass shooting at the Fulton County court House where I worked,

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Speaker 1: and we actually had to close down part of the

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Speaker 1: courthouse and it took days and days and days to

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Speaker 1: process the scene, to process each individual murder. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to know really where to even start, but I'm going

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Speaker 1: to start back at the walmart to take me back

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Speaker 1: to the very moment that gunfire broke out. What do

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Speaker 1: we know, Dave matt What we know is it about

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Speaker 1: ten forty or just before that, on a day when

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Speaker 1: they had a back to school shopping extravaganza where they

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Speaker 1: have like a tax free day, so thousands and thousands

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Speaker 1: of people shopping for back to school. Oh wait, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: you just ran a chill down my spine, Doctor Bethany

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Speaker 1: Marshalls psychoanalysts joining me out of la doctor Bethany. When

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Speaker 1: John Davy gets ready for school, he throws his magic

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Speaker 1: tricks a ball, a soccer ball of some sort, a

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Speaker 1: bunch of horrible snack food. I don't know where that

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Speaker 1: came from down his backpack, and he's ready to go.

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Speaker 1: Lucy Rights exhaustive lists, plans days ahead, gets her outfit out,

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Speaker 1: the whole shebang, and most important, makes her back to

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Speaker 1: school shopping list, even though the school says you don't

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Speaker 1: need supplies. That's all she's focusing on. I'm just thinking

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Speaker 1: about what Dave Mack just said, everybody's doing their back

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Speaker 1: to school shopping. Did you hear what he just said, Nancy? Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is a back to school shopping day, which meant

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Speaker 1: the walmart was crowded. It also means that families are

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Speaker 1: enjoying themselves. It's a happy moment, mothers with babies and children.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the victims was holding a two

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Speaker 1: month old baby and when she was shot, she felt

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Speaker 1: on the baby died and the baby had broken bones,

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Speaker 1: and that is just such a tragic, horrifying image to me.

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Speaker 1: But don't you think, Nancy, this shooter knew this. And

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Speaker 1: what we know of out mass murderers is that they

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Speaker 1: always have an ax to grind against society. They feel

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Speaker 1: bullied at some pathological level. They feel that everybody has

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Speaker 1: something they don't. They want to go down and infamy.

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Speaker 1: They want their crimes to bring notoriety to them. So

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Speaker 1: what better way to do that than to go into

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Speaker 1: a happy place where people are preparing for an happy event,

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Speaker 1: which is going back to school. Doctor Bethany, you're so right.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to her friend at NBC is Miguel

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Speaker 1: elma Gear. At about ten forty am on Saturday morning,

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Speaker 1: we are told a lone gunmen walked into that parking

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Speaker 1: lot and began to open fire. There was some three

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Speaker 1: thousand people, upwards of three thousand people inside that walmart

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Speaker 1: when he made his way in and began to unload

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Speaker 1: on families who were doing back to school shopping. The suspect,

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Speaker 1: we're told, was armed with an AK forty seven style

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Speaker 1: assault rifle and just began to unload bullet after bullet

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Speaker 1: on anyone he could see and all some twenty people

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Speaker 1: were killed and at least twenty six people were wound.

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Speaker 1: Did police say that the suspect then eventually surrendered to

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Speaker 1: officers without incident. Police did not fire a single shot

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Speaker 1: at the gunman. The gunman has been identified as twenty

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Speaker 1: one year old Patrick Cruci Crusie. US Police say he

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Speaker 1: left behind a racist manifesto. They are investigating that this

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Speaker 1: was perhaps a hate crime. That certainly seems to be

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Speaker 1: a possibility at this point. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: We heard like shots like three shots boom, boom, boom,

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Speaker 1: one two three exectively. Units to go ahead and start

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Speaker 1: responding to the health support at the walmart, Get people

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Speaker 1: at doorways, get people holding holly who wounded, ranging an

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Speaker 1: age from just two to eighty two years old. Some

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Speaker 1: of the injured scene here being rolled out on carts

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Speaker 1: to get medical health. Customers and other stores at the

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Speaker 1: clovistom quickly rushed out while officers worked to find the shooter.

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Speaker 1: I hear them poster and louder, and that's when I realize,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, this is like seriously. The suspect, who

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Speaker 1: allegedly drove more than six hundred miles from Allan, Texas

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Speaker 1: taken into custody just over twenty minutes after the first

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Speaker 1: shots rang out. The person there was taken into cut City,

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Speaker 1: was taken into custody without incident, and no law enforcement

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Speaker 1: personnel fired their weapons. Law enforcement officials tell us the

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Speaker 1: alleged shooter is twenty one year old Patrick Crucius of Allen, Texas,

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Speaker 1: also saying that in the salt style rifle similar to

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Speaker 1: an AK forty seven and several magazines were secured at

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Speaker 1: the scene, and that after he was taken into custody,

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Speaker 1: the suspect allegedly told investigators he wanted to shoot as

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Speaker 1: many Mexicans it's possible. Oh it just breaks my heart.

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Speaker 1: It breaks my heart to hear it. That's her friend

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Speaker 1: at NBC, Miguel mcgearre. Everyone trying to absorb what has

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Speaker 1: happened over the last seventy two hours. I Meancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: to go straight out to David Kats, active shoot or

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Speaker 1: Response expert, former DA and the CEO of Global Security Group, David,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. It's I'm overwhelmed. I'm

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed because I'm in my mind being taken back so

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Speaker 1: many crime scenes. I've helped process and analyze of mass shootings,

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Speaker 1: and when I say mass shootings, I'm talking about maybe

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Speaker 1: seven or eight people, nothing on the scale of what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today. What can you tell me? If anything?

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Speaker 1: I hardly know how to divide these two up, but

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Speaker 1: at the moment happened to be because we started on

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Speaker 1: school supplies talking about the Walmart shooting and I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking about out of the bloom this happening. What can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about the shooter or Davecats. They really

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Speaker 1: haven't released so much other than the manifesto, which which

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Speaker 1: gives his racist ideology. Okay, wait wait wait, wait right there,

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Speaker 1: right there, when we talk about you say they haven't

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Speaker 1: released that much. Well, you know what said the same

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Speaker 1: thing about unibomber. We didn't know much about him. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know you're the expert, but I know

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Speaker 1: this technical legal term bs. But somebody who writes um manifesto,

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Speaker 1: in writing it tells me a lot about the person.

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Speaker 1: With every word they write. We know his age, we

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Speaker 1: know where he's from, we know everything he's divulged his manifesto.

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Speaker 1: I'd say we've got a pretty good idea of who

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Speaker 1: he is. David Katz, Well, you see this little the

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Speaker 1: more of the more critical in fact that what I

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Speaker 1: would say relate to either this in this case and

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Speaker 1: the failure to stop it would be what type of

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Speaker 1: behavior manifested itself prior to the attack. You know, for example,

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Speaker 1: even if law enforcement had access to the manifesto, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you go to the police, you go to the FBI,

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Speaker 1: you go to any any law enforcement agents. Say look,

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Speaker 1: with this guy's writing, he gets a visit. There is

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Speaker 1: no there's no action that at this point in time

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Speaker 1: we can take. Our criminal justice system is not set

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Speaker 1: up for you know, this is a really scary guy.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's going to do something. We believe he's

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Speaker 1: going to do something at some point in the future.

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Speaker 1: We have to figure away as a society. They say, okay,

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Speaker 1: so one like this doesn't have access to a firearm,

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Speaker 1: someone like this has perhaps perhaps some sort of some

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Speaker 1: sort of forced intervention because we know they're taking time bumps.

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Speaker 1: And that's the problem. We do not deal with the

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Speaker 1: mad dogs in our society. We did not deal with

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Speaker 1: the psychologically impaired in the society. We just say, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess we can't do anything until they do something.

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Speaker 1: And that's the problem. That's why these and things happen

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Speaker 1: repeatedly and without exception. I know they say it's only

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Speaker 1: eighty percent, forget it, without exception. When you look at

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Speaker 1: these incidents, you go back and somebody's saying, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like gosh, you know, like what the tape of the

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Speaker 1: dating shooter they said right away, they said, well, he

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Speaker 1: looks like there's no way to predict it. We couldn't

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Speaker 1: have stop that. He's a normal guy. No he wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Now we find out about about the murder list, the rapists,

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Speaker 1: the question is what could we have done about it?

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Speaker 1: This is what I know about the Old Passo shooting.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen minutes before the first nine one one call was

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Speaker 1: made about the mass shooting at a back to school

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Speaker 1: cell at Walmart, an anti immigrant manifesto appears on line.

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Speaker 1: Of course, all the victims in the shooting are not immigrants.

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Speaker 1: The manifesto speaks of a quote invasion of Texas and

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Speaker 1: it details a very offensive plan to separate America into

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Speaker 1: territories by race. I was gonna let that's so kin

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Speaker 1: just for a moment. Authorities now scrutinizing the nearly three

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Speaker 1: thousand word manifesto to try to figure it out out

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Speaker 1: whether it's written by him. It is same guy who

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Speaker 1: twenty people and injured over two dozen. Now police were

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Speaker 1: interviewing this guy, twenty one year old Patrick Crusius, a

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Speaker 1: white male from Alan, Texas, almost ten hours away from

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Speaker 1: the Walmart. Now, what brought him to that shopping center?

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Speaker 1: That's one thing investigators want to know. The manifesto. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why we always calling a manifesto. It's just

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Speaker 1: hate rant. It says things like, if we can get enough,

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Speaker 1: get rid of enough people, our way of life can

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Speaker 1: be more sustainable. Okay, I want to go straight. I

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Speaker 1: need to shrink in a major way. Out to doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, help me out, Bethany well with these

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Speaker 1: hate manifestos. Actually, I agree with you. Manifesto is a

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Speaker 1: very fancy term for a hate rant. What we see

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Speaker 1: is something that we call in my field, trite, rehearsed

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Speaker 1: and stereotyped speech, and what that means psychologically is that

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Speaker 1: the person acts like they're writing something deep, as if

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Speaker 1: there's a deep emotional valance, as if they have a

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Speaker 1: point to make, but in fact it's very shallow. It's

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Speaker 1: like a thin veneer of verbal sophistication that really covers

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Speaker 1: a hateful personality type. And the hate usually stems, as

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Speaker 1: I said earlier, from this pathological conviction that everybody is

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Speaker 1: against them, that they have been given a raw deal

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Speaker 1: in life that finally, through a mass murder, they can

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Speaker 1: bring notoriety to all their grievances against society. And I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons we're seeing this increasingly is

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Speaker 1: that there is a very strong copycat quality to all

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Speaker 1: of these mass murders. They are really incited by watching

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Speaker 1: the news, going online, looking at other crimes, and it

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Speaker 1: gives them the courage and emboldens them to carry out

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Speaker 1: their hateful mission. Joining me right now a veteran California prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: author of red Flags on Amazon, Wendy Patrick. Wendy, I've

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Speaker 1: been taking a long, hard look at what we're learning

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Speaker 1: from this guy's manifesto, which to me is like a

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Speaker 1: nearly three thousand word confession. Very often you hear experts say, well,

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Speaker 1: you can't tell you had no idea this was coming.

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Speaker 1: I disagree. I think that there are signs. Just like

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Speaker 1: the Florida school shooter, there are so many signs. I

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Speaker 1: agree with David Katz. So often we just don't want

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Speaker 1: to look at the signs. What do you make I'm

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Speaker 1: talking right now about the Walmart shooter. What do you think? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have to say that when you leave behind, and

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Speaker 1: I agree with both you and doctor bethany manifesto makes

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Speaker 1: it sound unduly sophisticated. It is actually a very crude

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Speaker 1: planet's laid out. But the signs that are left in

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Speaker 1: writings like that are more than simply trying to deduce

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Speaker 1: motive after the fact. They're often what in the threat

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Speaker 1: assessment community we call leakage. You can read these things

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Speaker 1: and pretty much see that many of these shooters say

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Speaker 1: what they're going to do before they say it. Remember

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Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara shooter, Elliott Roger actually the night before

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Speaker 1: videotaped himself saying what he was going to do the

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Speaker 1: next day. The problem, and many of us know this

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Speaker 1: having done this type of work, is how do you

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Speaker 1: connect those dots before it happens, instead of doing what

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Speaker 1: we're doing today and everybody across the country reconstructing what

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Speaker 1: happened after the fact. So, in terms of red flags,

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Speaker 1: I think you've nailed it. A couple of you have

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Speaker 1: already talked about some of these things, grievance, collecting, pathological narcissism,

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Speaker 1: writing these manifestos, they don't write themselves overnight, but what

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Speaker 1: we also see as plagiarism from prior manifestos. So when

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Speaker 1: you have this sort of celebrity worship of people that

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Speaker 1: have done this before, all of this strung together, Nancy

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Speaker 1: could relate to some of these red flags that we

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Speaker 1: can in fact see before the fact, if we're all

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Speaker 1: looking at listening. Over the years, I have investigated, prosecuted,

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Speaker 1: and covered literally thousands of cases, and over those years,

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Speaker 1: some cases just stick with me. Some cases have affected

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Speaker 1: me so deeply. I believe I have to help the

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Speaker 1: victims and their families. Our new show, Injustice with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: is coming to Oxygen to investigate cases bring to light

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Speaker 1: what's been buried in all the chaos. Our show brings

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Speaker 1: attention to families that deserve to tell their story, two

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Speaker 1: cases that deserve to be heard, and to victims that

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Speaker 1: deserve a voice. Join us as we untangle what went wrong,

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Speaker 1: what went right, and what can still be done. Injustice

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace watch now on demand only on Oxygen,

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Speaker 1: the true network for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: There was a horrific scene outside the store. Day's customers

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Speaker 1: recorded the aftermath of the mass shooting. Dead bodies could

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Speaker 1: be seen near cars, people gunned down as the loaded

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Speaker 1: groceries and other items into their vehicles. Terrified customers took

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Speaker 1: cover as shots rang out. El Paso's police chief says

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Speaker 1: the nine one one call came in just before eleven

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Speaker 1: am local time, Sources tells CBS News. Crucius posted an

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Speaker 1: online manifesto which may point to a motive. In it,

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Speaker 1: he rants about the changing demographics of Texas and a

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Speaker 1: plot by Democrats to conspire with immigrants. He also blasted

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Speaker 1: Republicans and corporations. You were hearing from our friend at CBS.

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Speaker 1: That was Jeff Nijin. Before we could even absorb what

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Speaker 1: was happening at the Walmart shooting at the height of

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Speaker 1: the morning shopping from back to school, we hear about

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Speaker 1: another shooting. At least nine dead, dozens injured. After a

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Speaker 1: shooting in Dayton, Ohio, people down, one man capturing the

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Speaker 1: sound of gunfire as he sat in his car. Police

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Speaker 1: say the shooter, wearing body armor and armed with a

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Speaker 1: long gun and high capacity magazines, open fire just after

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Speaker 1: one am, as people were out at restaurants and bars

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Speaker 1: in a popular area of downtown. Officers already patrolling nearby

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Speaker 1: quickly responded, blocking off roads Right now, we got several down,

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Speaker 1: Paramedics rushing to get first aid to some victims out

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Speaker 1: on the street. Most of us can't get into our

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Speaker 1: cars because there were bodies scattered follower across the street

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Speaker 1: from our cars, so we can't. People that were shot

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Speaker 1: hit ncent people, police killing the gunmen working on identifying

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Speaker 1: the suspect to see what the possible motivation might have been.

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Speaker 1: I can hardly take in what I'm hearing. That was

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Speaker 1: our friend ABC reporter Maggie Ruly that moment when brave

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Speaker 1: cops save hundreds by confronting the Dayton gunman, twenty four

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Speaker 1: year old Connor Bets. I hate to even say his name.

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Speaker 1: And what we are learning about the Dayton shooter is

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Speaker 1: that he has long had plans to shoot up a school,

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Speaker 1: that he bullied people, that he was once suspended for

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Speaker 1: drawing up a hit list on the bathroom wall of

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Speaker 1: girls he wanted to kill, making lists of girls he

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Speaker 1: wanted to rate, people he wanted to torture. Now, of course,

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Speaker 1: this morning, you know how I hate politics. I never

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Speaker 1: get involved. I think all politicians are lying, every single

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Speaker 1: one of them, whether a Democrat or a Republican or

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Speaker 1: a Green. I just I don't like to politicize crime.

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Speaker 1: And this morning, everybody's blame Trump for the shootings. Well,

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Speaker 1: this guy had a hit list years ago. So what

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Speaker 1: am I gonna do? Blame Obama? Do you have to

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Speaker 1: go back even further and blame Bush? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: can't blame anybody but the shooters. I can't unless somebody

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Speaker 1: can explain to me how I can to Ellen colaurin

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Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter, Okay, we're just trying

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Speaker 1: to absorb what happened in El Paso, and then we

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Speaker 1: hear about another mass shooting. What happened in the Dayton shooting.

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Speaker 1: That's great, Nancy, just you know, just hours after the

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Speaker 1: Walmart shooting. It's a Saturday night. It's around one am. Friends, family,

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Speaker 1: couples are out having a Saturday night out on the town.

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Speaker 1: It's in a nice neighborhood. It's Dayton, Ohio. Filled with restaurants, galleries, clouds, bars.

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Speaker 1: People are walking up the sidewalks, people are inside restaurants.

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Speaker 1: It's a warm mate and then it's had to who

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Speaker 1: felt like out of complete nowhere to the victims of

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Speaker 1: the witnesses, This man whose wearing body are are wearing

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Speaker 1: a bask just opened fire. He starts on the sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: He's trying to make his way into a bar called

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Speaker 1: Dead Peppers. He opened fire. He manages to shoot several people.

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Speaker 1: Nine people have died. But police were able because there

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Speaker 1: were officers already patrolling the area. Police were able to

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Speaker 1: stop him in twenty seconds, but he was still able

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Speaker 1: to kill nine people. Back to expert David Katz ad

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Speaker 1: to shoot a response expert former da CEO of Global

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Speaker 1: security group, What can you tell me about this guy?

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Speaker 1: We talk about the police response for a minute. Here

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Speaker 1: in New York City police officers are getting water thrown

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Speaker 1: on them. And listen to what the cops do under

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Speaker 1: these circumstances. They take the shooter out. So we know

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Speaker 1: from what little has been been released so far that

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Speaker 1: this guy would they say he has a dark energy

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Speaker 1: about him. That's nonsense. What they meant was he was

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Speaker 1: frightening to people. He threatened people. They knew with certainty

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Speaker 1: that he had he had intent to harm not only

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Speaker 1: one or two people, but many people. And yet we

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Speaker 1: as a society cannot figure out some way to stop

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Speaker 1: these people from getting access to firearms to monitor these people.

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Speaker 1: It's it's you know, when you when you go to

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Speaker 1: a gunshop, for example, and you purchase a firearm. When

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Speaker 1: you go through your checklist with the ATF form, they

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Speaker 1: ask you, have you ever been arrested? Have you ever

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Speaker 1: been taken you're taking any sort of drugs that are

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Speaker 1: associated with psychological conditions? You could check no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no no. The criminal background check will devolve that you

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Speaker 1: have been arrested and you will not get access to

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Speaker 1: a firearm. How do we make sure that someone like

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Speaker 1: a school psychologist or psychiatrist, or someone who has encountered

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Speaker 1: people like this during their school years, during employment, during

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Speaker 1: some period of time in life, to say, look, we

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Speaker 1: need to we need to make sure these people don't

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Speaker 1: get access to a firearm, or at least, you know,

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Speaker 1: to make sure everyone is due process rights, to make

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Speaker 1: sure there is a second look before we complete those sales.

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Speaker 1: You know, one thing I can't get away from one

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Speaker 1: important fact. To doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of LA

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Speaker 1: his first victim was his own sister, happy Nancy. I

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Speaker 1: have been thinking about that all morning. I keep wondering,

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Speaker 1: was he so indiscriminate he shot at everybody and didn't

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Speaker 1: care if it was his sister? Or if I think

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Speaker 1: of the psychological profile of these mass murders, they have

428
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: such a history of feeling victimized. And again I keep

429
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 1: using the word pathological, because not every victim becomes a shooter, right,

430
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: but shooters always feel like victims and like as if

431
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: everybody in society is against them. And did he have

432
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: an axe to grind against his own sister? Was this

433
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: where the sense of being at an inferior level and

434
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: bullied and persecuted. Did it begin in the context, in

435
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: the matrix of his own family? And you know, Nancy,

436
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: he was he was wearing body armor, and he drove

437
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: with his sister to the spot, with his sister and

438
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: a friend. Can you imagine she was sitting in the

439
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: car with her own brother who had unintent to murder?

440
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole It's such a frightening thought to me.

441
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: And the panel is talking about how do we know

442
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: that these men there are always men are going to

443
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: become mass murderers. They always write about it, Nancy. They

444
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: always have manifestos, they always confess they are blabbermouths. They

445
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: blab to their friends, they write letters, they go on YouTube,

446
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: they go online. It's pretty easy to know when somebody's

447
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: going to become a mass murderer because they're always talking

448
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: about it too. Karen Smith joining me, forensics expert and

449
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: founder of Bare Bones Consulting. I keep going back in

450
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: my mind to mass shootings that I've handled or help

451
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: process or analyze. How do you make any sense Let's

452
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: just start with the Dayton shooting. How do you make

453
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: sense of it forensically and what can you learn? You know,

454
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: Nancy I'm trying to wrap my head around this. You know,

455
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: the at the Neglub in Dayton. You know, you start,

456
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: you make the crime scene as big as you can's

457
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: the city block. It's a city block. You know you're

458
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: dealing with an AR fifteen rifle. Those those projectiles travel fast,

459
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: and they travel far. They can penetrate multiple surfaces. So

460
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to be reconstructing every trajectory.

461
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: You're not going to be reconstructing every blood stain like

462
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: you would in a domestic related homicide. In the house

463
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace, there was a lot of

464
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: people downtown. It's usually alive night on Saturdays about town.

465
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: We got to the end of the line. Once we

466
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: got to the end of the line, which is near

467
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: the corner, you heard one gunshot. You heard boom, So

468
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: we're looking around. We didn't know what it was. It

469
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: didn't sound like a familiar sound in the buildings around

470
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: here and made a kind of echo off and then

471
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: you hear a second boom, and then after that is

472
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: complete rapid fire, just for like one minute. Once the

473
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: gunshots started like coming rapidly, you just see the crowd

474
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: running west, we running down towards to get out of

475
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: the Oregon and you can just see as I turned around,

476
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: my friend was behind me. He wasn't with me. So

477
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: when I turned around, I'm looking for him and I

478
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: see he was stunned. And that's when I could see

479
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: the people in the line that was in the line

480
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: of net peppers. You can see the bodies actually start

481
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: to fall. So then we knew it was like bigger

482
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: than just even a shootout. And we just continue to run,

483
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: and we just yelling at people and just telling them, like, run,

484
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: it's a mass shooter. Run, it's a mass shooter. You're

485
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: hearing our friend Anthony Reynolds at NBC Today speaking to witnesses.

486
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: They're survivors of the Dayton shooting before we could even

487
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: absorb what had happened. And back to school cell at

488
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: a Walmart eleven am, where you're of another mass shooting

489
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: in Dayton. How can we not only absorb what happened,

490
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: but makes sense of it so that we can learn

491
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: something from it. And in our jurispruduce system, even if

492
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: we learned from it, what under the law can we

493
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: actually do about it? Joining me Dave matcrime online dot

494
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. You know, I'm understanding that the Dayton

495
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: shooter had a plan, an earlier plan to shoot up

496
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: a school. He had a hit list and a rape list.

497
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: One girl, a former cheerleader, says in her freshman year,

498
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: she got a phone call from cops who tell her

499
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: her name was on his list of potential targets, and

500
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: she says the officer said he the shooter wouldn't be

501
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: back to school for a while. He had been suspended,

502
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: some time passed, and then he was back walking down

503
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: the halls. They didn't give any of the potential targets

504
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: any warning he was coming back to school. The discovery

505
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: of the hit list, that was all the way back

506
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. How long had that been going on

507
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: prompt to police to investigate him, and it cost about

508
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: one third of the students to skip school. Had a

509
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: fear for their own safety. Now that's according to the AP.

510
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: He Now, I was thinking about what David Kats, our

511
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: active shot or response expert, was saying. He had no

512
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: apparent criminal record as an adult. Now we also know

513
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: if he had been charged as a juvenal, all those

514
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: offenses would be sealing. We wouldn't know about them. But

515
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: this goes way way back, Dave Mack. I mean, this

516
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: guy's planning to kill and rape people all the way

517
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: back seven years ago. Yeah, it's at the age of seventeen.

518
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: He's writing on a bathroom wall his rape list. Okay,

519
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: at seventeen, he could have been tried as an adult

520
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: for that type of a crime. And this is something

521
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: we actually were talking about before we started the show, Nancy,

522
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: because what can be done about somebody who look a

523
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: normal person, doesn't have a hit list. What's the same

524
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: thing as in the Parkland shooting to doctor Bethany Marshall

525
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: Psycholis joining me out of LA A former middle school

526
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: classmate told the local paper that this guy Bets had

527
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: an obsession with killing and death and once told her

528
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: he fantasies about tying her up and slitting her throat.

529
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: This is in meddual school. She said she knew that

530
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: he knew he the shoot or knew it was not normal,

531
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: and talked about him getting help. She and her parents

532
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: told the Bellbrook police what was going on, and they

533
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: all say they were not taken seriously. This guy would

534
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: also do writings about all Shelby annihilated, absolute carnage, bloody massacre.

535
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: I mean, if that's not a red flag to steal

536
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick's title of her book, I don't know it is. Well, Nancy,

537
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: we have a term in the field. It's called catathymic homicide,

538
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: and that's a fancy term to mean compulsion. That these

539
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: men actually have a compulsion to kill, and it's a

540
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: compulsion that waxes and wanes over the lifespan until they

541
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: actually commit the act. So when you take a compulsion,

542
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: a compulsion at its very core is a build up

543
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: of feelings outside of awareness that can only be neutralized

544
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: by an act. So some people, you know, compulsively want

545
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: to have sex or binge and purge or shop. We

546
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: were all familiar with the idea of what a compulsion

547
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: is like. But in this case, the compulsion is to kill.

548
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: And when somebody has a compulsion, there's a buildup of agitation, restlessness,

549
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: there's an urgency to commit the act. And that's why

550
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: is the panel's talking about. You know, how we how

551
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: do we detect these people? How do we stop them?

552
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: You know, what are the red flags? You have to

553
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: think of it in terms of a compulsion that is

554
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: leaking out all over the place, So you start with

555
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: their writings, and you also start in their own homes.

556
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: I do think that a diligent parent can know if

557
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: their child has a compulsion to kill. You look at

558
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: what they're writing, You look at what they're reading, You

559
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: look at what they're talking about, You look at their

560
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: Facebook accounts. It's going to be there, Nancy, people cannot

561
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: hide compulsion. To Wendy Patrick, Californian prosecutor and author of

562
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: the book on Amazon red Flags, Yeah, software here we

563
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: didn't have a warning. There were no quote red flags here.

564
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,479
Speaker 1: In both of these cases, there are tons of red flags. Yeah.

565
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: And you know you also, in addition to looking, you

566
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: also listen to what they say. Part of the problem

567
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: here is many of these people do talk about what

568
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: they're feeling in terms of the compulsions. Sometimes we talk

569
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: about it being a pathway to violence, so the releasing

570
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: pressure at the very end. Sometimes it's totally logical to them.

571
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: We say, senseless violence makes perfect sense to them, so

572
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: in order to figure out where they are along this pathway,

573
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: and if we want to call it a compulsion, I

574
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: like that too because I think that really captures the

575
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: build up and it's the listening to the kids and

576
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: taking it seriously. But then again, the problem at the end, Nancy,

577
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: as many of us have talked about, is how do

578
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: you then separate those from actually our suffering, from this

579
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: build up of tension, from this compulsion, from those that

580
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: are just talking or maybe think this is somehow going

581
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: to glamorize their existence in making themselves seem dangerous. It

582
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: is that that we need to pay most attention to

583
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: as a threat assessment community, separating those two. Sometimes we

584
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: say hunters and howlers. Hunters are the ones that we

585
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: don't see coming. Howlers are the ones that make a

586
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: lot of noise but don't actually graduate. To Karen Smith,

587
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: forensic expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting, what do you

588
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: look for in the home, in their room, on their computers,

589
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: their laptops, their things. We've heard this over and over again, Nancy.

590
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: The manifestos, the drawings. Sometimes they'll make drawings, they'll have notes,

591
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: They'll have hidden places in their desk and their closet

592
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: and boxes. Anywhere inside their room is their hubble, their

593
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: place where they plan, where they plot. So that and

594
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to say treasure trove because it's not

595
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: the appropriate thing, but that's what it is. Really. Forensics

596
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: are going to go in there. They're going to find possibly,

597
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: you know, research on guns, research on how to carry

598
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: this out, on the computers, research on past shooters, like

599
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: we've heard from the experts on your show. All of

600
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: these things come together and they're going to do a

601
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: top to bottom search. They're going to collect pretty much,

602
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: I would think boxes and bags of pretty much everything

603
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: from the shooter's bed room, because I think every single

604
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: thing in there is going to be a clue. Do

605
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: David Katz, founder CEO of Global Security Group, Active Shooter

606
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: Response Expert, former DA What if anything can we learn? David, Well,

607
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: I mean, like I keep going back to the same thing,

608
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: you know, you know all the guests have made, you know,

609
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: the really important points that we know. These people, they

610
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: tell us what they're going to do. The part we

611
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: have to figure out that, you know, I don't know

612
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: if we've not getting there yet, is okay, we have

613
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: someone like this who at an early age in middle school,

614
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: has these fantasies, has these desires. We know people have

615
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: doctor you know, doctor Bethan, you mentioned pathological narcissism. These

616
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: secret service goes into that detail, and there's some of

617
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: their studies aggressive narcissism, they call it. We know these

618
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: people exist, they are around other people who are terrified

619
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: by them, but that doesn't lead us to Okay, now

620
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: we know who they are. They've made people uncomfortable, even frightened.

621
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: How do we stop them? And that's the point where

622
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: that I think we need to grapple with because until

623
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: until we can stop these kicking combottoms, they're going to

624
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: these incidents are going to replay, replay, replay, and we're

625
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: going to be having this conversation ad infinitum. That's what

626
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: we have to do. We have to figure out as

627
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: a society how to interdict and not just respond. At

628
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: this hour's prayers go on for the victims and their families.

629
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,