Speaker 1: I'm Kenezzarelli and you're listening to Seneca's conversations on power
Speaker 1: and Purpose. I am so delighted to partner with Makers
Speaker 1: on the special six part series called Keep Going. In
Speaker 1: this series, we listen to incredible conversations from Makers Conferences
Speaker 1: with a special focus on d e I. The goal
Speaker 1: is to use these podcasts as a jumping off point
Speaker 1: for conversations about d EI in your own organization. Now,
Speaker 1: I want to give a special thanks to the one
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Speaker 1: sponsor Lulu Lemon. Now we launched the Seneca Women podcast
Speaker 1: Network about a year ago with founding partner p ANDNG
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio with the goal of amplifying the
Speaker 1: voices of women around the world. You probably know that
Speaker 1: podcasting is a fast growing industry, with over of podcast
Speaker 1: listeners being women. But what you may not know is
Speaker 1: that only tw of top podcasts are hosted by women.
Speaker 1: We want to change that, so we're launching dozens of
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Speaker 1: Now today we're going to be talking about masculinity and
Speaker 1: how false narratives about masculinity can have a negative impact
Speaker 1: on our daily lives and in the workplace. We're going
Speaker 1: to hear an excerpt of a fascinating conversation between Doug
Speaker 1: m Off, the second Gentleman of the United States, that is,
Speaker 1: the husband of Vice President Kamala Harris, and Justin Baldoni, author,
Speaker 1: filmmaker and co founder of Wayfarer Studios. Their discussion took
Speaker 1: place at the recent Makers Conference. After the excerpt, I'll
Speaker 1: be talking today with our special guest, Mark Pritchard, chief
Speaker 1: brand Officer for PNG. Over the years, we have been
Speaker 1: thrilled to work with Mark on game changing projects. He's
Speaker 1: going to give us his perspective on masculinity and some
Speaker 1: practical suggestions for the workplace. But first let's listen to
Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni and Doug m Off on masculinity. But I
Speaker 1: want to jump in real quick just a masculinity because
Speaker 1: obviously I just wrote wrote a book about it, I'm
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about it, and I just want to
Speaker 1: ask you, has there, just has there ever been a
Speaker 1: moment where, because of our conditioning as men, sometimes we
Speaker 1: can just fall into learned behavior. Right. We've all been
Speaker 1: socialized um to think that we got to be the providers,
Speaker 1: that we got to be the center of attention. Right.
Speaker 1: These are all things that that we're not born with.
Speaker 1: We're taught this stuff. Is there a moment where you
Speaker 1: just had to shed all that stuff and be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, I was a super successful entertainment lawyer, like
Speaker 1: I was the king of the household, and now I've
Speaker 1: married this badass, powerful woman and holy crap, she's the
Speaker 1: vice president. I'm maybe your ego might have told you
Speaker 1: something like I'm not as important. I don't. I'm just curious,
Speaker 1: did you wrestle with anything on this journey. It's such
Speaker 1: a great point and it's such a great thing to
Speaker 1: be talking about, and it's something I've thought about, especially
Speaker 1: in getting ready to talk to you. And it's it's,
Speaker 1: you know, this whole thing about you know, manliness, and
Speaker 1: you know what it means to be a man. I mean,
Speaker 1: what is strength? It's to me, it's strong to show
Speaker 1: someone you love them and show someone you will protect
Speaker 1: them and provide for them, and it's okay to show it.
Speaker 1: And it's but that doesn't mean you're weak. I think
Speaker 1: that means you're strong. You know, you don't have to
Speaker 1: talk tough to be tough. And so it's kind of
Speaker 1: this didn't just for me. I'm a very healthy ego.
Speaker 1: I'm confident I was successful and you know, I no,
Speaker 1: I don't lack for any of that. But it's, Um,
Speaker 1: I'm always curious at at men who have to, you know,
Speaker 1: stump their chest to to show how big they are.
Speaker 1: That's pretty small to me. Um, you gotta be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta be willing to let people see
Speaker 1: you who you are, UM, so they can trust you,
Speaker 1: so they know you've you, you have their back, and
Speaker 1: you're gonna be there for them. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I rolled. That's how I've always rolled, and it
Speaker 1: just didn't happen because I met Karla Harris. It was
Speaker 1: really uh, you know, put put into my blood and
Speaker 1: soul by my father and my mother who were Mom's
Speaker 1: a super strong woman, competitive athlete, you know, she was
Speaker 1: really just showed me what a strong woman could be.
Speaker 1: And then my dad, who just worked his tush off,
Speaker 1: traveled the world, was a woman shoe designer, so he
Speaker 1: was in a field of art and yet he was
Speaker 1: one of the strongest, toughest, most self actualized men I know,
Speaker 1: and you know taught me so much, including the value
Speaker 1: of hard work and what makes you you know, part
Speaker 1: of what makes you who you are is what you
Speaker 1: can do for your family, not just by money though,
Speaker 1: by love and by care and by um you know,
Speaker 1: being there. What a fascinating conversation. And I am so
Speaker 1: delighted to welcome our special guests today, Mark Pritchard, Chief
Speaker 1: brand Officer for PNG. Mark, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me Kim. So, why is it
Speaker 1: important that we eliminate these outdated notions of masculinity that
Speaker 1: they were just referring to, including in the workplace. Well,
Speaker 1: the outdated notions of masculinity just don't serve us well anymore.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the most outdated one is
Speaker 1: this strong, silent type, which which admittedly, you know, I
Speaker 1: really grew up admiring and respecting and thinking that's what
Speaker 1: it was all about. And and the problem is is
Speaker 1: that that strong silent type, um, it is useful for
Speaker 1: some situations, but in other situations, if it's the only
Speaker 1: notion of masculinity, then it can lead to unhealthy behavior.
Speaker 1: It can lead to this feeling of of as a man,
Speaker 1: you need to be the dominant one, the one who's
Speaker 1: in power, the one who's in charge, the one who
Speaker 1: who really needs to take over everything and who has
Speaker 1: to always have the loudest voice. And um, and uh
Speaker 1: you know one of the one of the worst ones,
Speaker 1: which is want the one who can't ever stop and
Speaker 1: ask for directions when they're lost. So you know, the
Speaker 1: that that notion though at its you know, at it's
Speaker 1: at best which I just described, it can be more
Speaker 1: of a domineering um situation. You know, at the minimum,
Speaker 1: if it squelches the ability for others to be able
Speaker 1: to contribute and it doesn't lead a team, and it worse,
Speaker 1: it can lead to very unhealthy behavior. It can lead
Speaker 1: to this this outsized and overcharged expectation as to what, um,
Speaker 1: what you need to do as a man and what
Speaker 1: men need to do, and that that can lead to
Speaker 1: mental health problems. Um. But it also can unfortunately lead
Speaker 1: to bullying and harassment and other and other things that
Speaker 1: are even worse. So you know, um, the new definition
Speaker 1: of masculinity is to be a real man, is to
Speaker 1: be one who is who is vulnerable, who shows a
Speaker 1: full range of emotions like every other human um and
Speaker 1: and to be human and humane and to love and
Speaker 1: to care and to trust. That notion just brings out
Speaker 1: the best in everyone, not the least of which is
Speaker 1: the men who choose to to follow that notion have
Speaker 1: a much more fulfilling life. So that sounds like the
Speaker 1: real definition of masculinity. And when we see the workplace,
Speaker 1: how do we bring that definition to the workplace. How
Speaker 1: do we ensure that our leaders are encouraging that definition
Speaker 1: of masculinity. What's really important in the workplace is to
Speaker 1: take the time to really recognize biases. And we and
Speaker 1: we all grow up with with bias. I mean, every
Speaker 1: human on the planet has bias. And one of those
Speaker 1: biases are around these notions of what a man is
Speaker 1: about and and what what a woman is about and
Speaker 1: and so one of the things that is important to
Speaker 1: do in the workplace, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: we do is we just we have we have training.
Speaker 1: We have training on gender bias, and and we have
Speaker 1: conversations and we discuss what the expectations should be, and
Speaker 1: our leaders express the expectations of what true equality is about.
Speaker 1: At the you know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: we we aspire to live in an equal world, and
Speaker 1: that equality means equal voices, equal pay, equal contributions, equal roles.
Speaker 1: And and when when when things are equal in the workplace,
Speaker 1: you get better results and and you get a far
Speaker 1: more fulfilling work environment. So really it's incumbent upon leadership
Speaker 1: to just express those expectations and then when they see,
Speaker 1: when when anyone sees behavior that is inconsistent with those expectations,
Speaker 1: call it out. It's not enough to just stand by
Speaker 1: and and not do anything. And when you see behavior
Speaker 1: that that is inconsistent that that that demonstrates either any
Speaker 1: kind of bullying, harassment, or or even talking over people,
Speaker 1: call it out, call it out and say you know
Speaker 1: that that's not right. Um. That starts to then change
Speaker 1: the environment of the workforces. So where do you have
Speaker 1: a really truly productive and healthy workplace where everyone contributes well.
Speaker 1: That tone at the top that you're talking about is
Speaker 1: so so key, um, And to see leaders do that,
Speaker 1: I think makes a huge, huge difference in workplace culture.
Speaker 1: The other thing that you do so well and we're
Speaker 1: so grateful for, is how you use your advertising as
Speaker 1: a force for good and so how can companies bring
Speaker 1: this message to the wider world. You know, every company
Speaker 1: that does any kind of advertising or even communications, which
Speaker 1: is pretty much every company has has the opportunity to
Speaker 1: use their voice as a force for good for gender equality.
Speaker 1: And you know, we're the world's largest advertiser, or often
Speaker 1: on the world's largest advertiser. And what we recognize is
Speaker 1: that advertising affects people every day. The images that are
Speaker 1: in advertising really embed into people's minds and create maray's
Speaker 1: and those memories then form bias and and that because
Speaker 1: what what what you're seeing is how people are portrayed,
Speaker 1: and how they're portrayed can lead to either a stereotypical
Speaker 1: portrayal or denegrating or diminishing portrayal, or it can be
Speaker 1: an accurate portrayal. Our job is to have accurate portrayals,
Speaker 1: so never stereotyping, never diminishing, never denigrating. So just fundamentally
Speaker 1: job want is to make sure all of our advertising
Speaker 1: accurately portrays women and girls of all intersectionalities. When that happens,
Speaker 1: you can start to eliminate bias just through the everyday
Speaker 1: images that you see. And then periodically what you can
Speaker 1: do and what we do is we we try to
Speaker 1: use our voice, use our voice to shine the light
Speaker 1: on bias or to bring to light an issue that
Speaker 1: needs to be addressed. For example, every many people are
Speaker 1: familiar with always like a girl. That literally changed the
Speaker 1: meaning of that phrase that is generally perceived as a
Speaker 1: that is that is communicated as as an insult um.
Speaker 1: And we change the meaning of that phrase to mean
Speaker 1: amazing things versus versus something that's insulting, and people now
Speaker 1: think about it as as as a positive phrase um.
Speaker 1: And then there's several other things that we've done with
Speaker 1: with our different brands that just shine to light on bias,
Speaker 1: shining to light on notions of of of masculinity. Even
Speaker 1: where we did this with Gillette, we believe where we
Speaker 1: were focused on the best men can be as be
Speaker 1: a man who is who is a role model for
Speaker 1: equality and uh. And when you do that, then people
Speaker 1: start having conversations. And when those conversations then lead to
Speaker 1: understanding and empathy and that attitude change and then eventually
Speaker 1: what what happens is equality and and these these notions
Speaker 1: of masculinity of what a real man is, they start
Speaker 1: to become the norm. And that's what we're seeking. Well,
Speaker 1: we want to thank you for that. Obviously, today we
Speaker 1: are living in a media storm um and advertising and
Speaker 1: media are so integrated into every part of our life.
Speaker 1: And so the idea that you could use your force
Speaker 1: for good uh and as you said, accurately portray the
Speaker 1: full range of emotion of men and women, the full
Speaker 1: range of roles is so critical, and we see other
Speaker 1: companies are taking the queue from you, so we really
Speaker 1: thank you for that, you bet, and we'll keep going.
Speaker 1: Thank you Mark for joining us. I get so inspired
Speaker 1: whenever I talk with Mark Pritchard, and what great insights
Speaker 1: we heard from Doug m Off and Justin Baldoni. So
Speaker 1: the next step is how to bring these ideas to
Speaker 1: the workplace to address notions of masculinity and equality. Here
Speaker 1: are three questions to ask yourself. First, do you recognize
Speaker 1: your own biases? Everybody has them, but have you checked
Speaker 1: your own thinking to make sure you're not seeing men
Speaker 1: and women in limiting ways? Two? Are you setting expectations
Speaker 1: for correct behavior in the workplace? Are you calling out
Speaker 1: bad behavior so that you can create a healthy environment
Speaker 1: where everyone contributes. And Finally, does your company's advertising send
Speaker 1: the right message, does it accurately portray women and men?
Speaker 1: And can it be used as a force for good?
Speaker 1: Does your advertising and communication strategy ignite the conversation that
Speaker 1: leads to empathy and equality. Thanks so much for joining us,
Speaker 1: and tune in next Wednesday for another amazing maker's conversation
Speaker 1: about how we can all contribute to making progress in
Speaker 1: the workplace. You're listening to Seneca's Conversations on Power and
Speaker 1: Purpose brought to you by the Seneca Women podcast Network
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio with support from founding partner p
Speaker 1: And Listen to Seneca's Conversations on Power and Purpose on
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Speaker 1: Women dot com. H M HM