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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan because time goes by you.

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Speaker 1: If you're all alone, you you long for companionship. Many

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Speaker 1: of us do, I think, And it's tough. It's tough

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Speaker 1: to try to discern who you're gonna let into your

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Speaker 1: little bubble. You don't know, you know, particularly the world

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Speaker 1: that we live in nowadays, you don't know who's gonna

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Speaker 1: show up at your door. You don't know who's on

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Speaker 1: the island line, you don't know who you're texting with.

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Speaker 1: Today on body Bags, I want to talk about a

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Speaker 1: young lady Hammy Joe Blant. I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: her murder. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Would Nancy Grace scary world out there, Jackie? When it

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Speaker 1: comes to dating, wouldn't you agree? Oh? Absolutely? Joe Tammy

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Speaker 1: Joe Blanton was dating forty one year old Joseph over

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Speaker 1: Handsley and it was a very volatile relationship and she

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Speaker 1: broke up with him. She was so afraid of over

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Speaker 1: Handsley that she had the locks changed on her home.

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Speaker 1: And here is an example of why. The day before

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Speaker 1: Tammy Joe Blanton was found murdered. She had made a

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Speaker 1: call to at two fifty two a m. She made

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Speaker 1: the call reporting that her ex boyfriend, Joseph over Handsley

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Speaker 1: was outside her home and wouldn't leave. When officers arrived,

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Speaker 1: Joseph was still outside. He said that his key would

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Speaker 1: not work. When police asked to see over Handsley's identification,

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Speaker 1: it listed a different address than Tammy Joe Blanton's home.

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Speaker 1: Tammy Joe Blunton explained to police that she had ended

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Speaker 1: her relationship with ober Hansley, had her locks changed again,

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Speaker 1: and that she wanted him to leave. He did, but

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Speaker 1: the next morning, officers came back to Tammy Joe Blanton's house.

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Speaker 1: That's because her friend and colleague, Sabrina Hall, had called

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Speaker 1: police to ask them to do a welfare check on

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Speaker 1: Tammy Joe Blanton. Tammy worked with Sabrina and was supposed

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Speaker 1: to work that day, but when she didn't arrive to

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Speaker 1: the office, Sabrina called her phone and a man answered.

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Speaker 1: The man told Sabrina that he was Tammy's brother and

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Speaker 1: that she was caring for their ill father. Sabrina Hall

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Speaker 1: did not believe the man and made the phone call

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Speaker 1: for police. To check on Tammy. At that point, when

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Speaker 1: the officers showed up at Blanton's home and knocked on

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Speaker 1: the door, ober Hansley answered the door. The detectives noticed

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Speaker 1: a cut on ober Hansley's hand and they searched him

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Speaker 1: and at that point they found a brass knuckle knife

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Speaker 1: in his pocket that appeared to have hair and blood

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Speaker 1: on it. At that point, infust gators obtained a warrant

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Speaker 1: for the home and inside it's where they found the

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Speaker 1: body of Tammy Joe Blanton in the bathroom. And police

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Speaker 1: at that point described it this is their words, not mine,

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Speaker 1: A big bloody mound of something in the bathtub. That

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Speaker 1: phrase right there tells me that this poor woman's body

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Speaker 1: has just been mutilated terribly. Yeah, that's a big indication there,

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Speaker 1: because you know you should not just if you're a

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Speaker 1: young police officer that shows up and and these are

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Speaker 1: what we refer to as beat cops. They're the folks

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Speaker 1: that are out riding around their car, they're patrolling, they're

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Speaker 1: responding to a call. It's always amazed me with these

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Speaker 1: cases that I've worked and I've covered now in the

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Speaker 1: media for a number of years, where you're a beat cop,

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Speaker 1: and you've maybe you've you've gone out to a noise

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Speaker 1: disturbance or police officers. My friends that are police officers,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest annoyances that they have are responding

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Speaker 1: to alarms on buildings. You hear it all the time

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Speaker 1: on police radio. It turns out to be nothing most

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Speaker 1: of the time. The winds blowing the door. You imagine

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Speaker 1: coming off of a call like that, and you're summoned

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Speaker 1: to this location and you've just been doing something that

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Speaker 1: seems so innocuous in your standard workaday world. And we're

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Speaker 1: not talking about a place that's we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: a place that's a huge urban center here. We're just

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Speaker 1: talking about suburban America. And you'll walk into an environment

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Speaker 1: that is bathed in blood and you're thinking, what planet

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Speaker 1: am I on? All of a sudden, and that's the

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Speaker 1: world that cops live in, where they just kind of

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Speaker 1: have to throw the brakes on and readjust very quickly,

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Speaker 1: and they begin to assist. When they showed up at

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Speaker 1: the door and he wouldn't show the hands, that's that's

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Speaker 1: a big indication for them. They call it putting the

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Speaker 1: bracelets on. Bracelets are going to come out the handcuffs

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Speaker 1: and you're you're going into custody at that moment time.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna be arrested at that moment time because you're

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Speaker 1: non compliant with a lawful order. And I gotta tell

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Speaker 1: you thank God that they did, because as was mentioned,

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Speaker 1: he had these I've heard people refer to them as

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Speaker 1: a knucklebuster knife, which is it's kind of a if

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Speaker 1: you think of what a brass knuckle looks like, it's

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Speaker 1: something you can have your fingers going through and there's

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Speaker 1: a contact edge where you can strike an individual with

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Speaker 1: his metallic surface. But in addition to the brass knuckle,

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Speaker 1: you've actually got a sharp edged instrument on the other

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Speaker 1: end of it. And this, this is a highly lethal

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Speaker 1: weapon he could have at that moment time with these

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Speaker 1: police officers. He could have attacked them. He could have

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Speaker 1: ripped them to shreds or done great bodily harm and

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Speaker 1: thank God that they weren't hurt. I can't say the

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Speaker 1: same Tammy Joe Blant. As investigators are starting to look

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Speaker 1: at what had happened to Tammy Joe Blanton, they discovered

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Speaker 1: that she had been stabbed repeatedly. So is this her

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Speaker 1: of death? Absolutely her cause of death is sharp force injuries.

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Speaker 1: That is this knife being driven into her body. Not

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Speaker 1: just once or twice three times. I'm talking multiple times.

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Speaker 1: She had multiple stab wounds all over her body. And

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Speaker 1: it is absolutely horrific. And I've said this over and

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Speaker 1: over again and I'll never tire of saying it, But

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Speaker 1: out of all of the causes of death that are

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Speaker 1: out there, sharp force injuries, when you take that in

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Speaker 1: a homicide, in the context of a homicide, is the

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Speaker 1: manner of death. It is the most personal. It is

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Speaker 1: the most personal thing that can happen, with maybe the

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Speaker 1: exception of strangulation, but there's there's a level of violence

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Speaker 1: that goes in too. Sharp force injury, particularly stab wounds,

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Speaker 1: because you're it's an action where and particularly in this case,

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Speaker 1: and you begin to think about the how this this

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Speaker 1: weapon is set up where your fingers are are threaded

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Speaker 1: through this thing and you've got this blade, so you've

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Speaker 1: created a fist where you're you're gripping this this blade

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Speaker 1: with this brass knuckle handle and you're driving it over

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Speaker 1: and over and over. There's a tremendous amount of force here.

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Speaker 1: Here's here's the key though. With stab wounds, it's not

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Speaker 1: like you're one and done. In many of these cases,

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Speaker 1: this is a frenzied event. You're withdrawing the blade and

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Speaker 1: then you make a conscious effort. That that's important to

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Speaker 1: emphasize you you're making a conscious effort to now reinsert

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Speaker 1: this weapon into someone's body. It's not like you strike

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Speaker 1: them a single time on the head with a club

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Speaker 1: or something like that. It's not like you shoot them

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Speaker 1: a single time. This is withdrawing an edged weapon and

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Speaker 1: then reinserting it. With drawing reinserting it, and there's a

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Speaker 1: pain response. If you're face to face with this victim,

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Speaker 1: that is should should potentially register with you. You're witnessing

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Speaker 1: their life just kind of fade being away before you.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they're gasping, maybe they're fighting you. Because in a

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Speaker 1: normal primal response, you're going to try to fend this

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Speaker 1: person off. But yet that knife is being plunged into

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Speaker 1: this individual every single time, and lots of times with

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Speaker 1: sharp force injury victims. We examine the palms of their

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Speaker 1: hands very carefully, and this is absolutely horrific, but it's reality.

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Speaker 1: The individual, in order to fend off the subject will

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Speaker 1: grasp the blade and the perpetrator with again will withdraw

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Speaker 1: the blade from the individual's hand, and you'll have these

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Speaker 1: large slice marks that you can appreciate on the palms

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Speaker 1: of the hands in between the fingers. Particularly, one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest area is the webbing between the thumb and

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Speaker 1: the index finger. You'll see that slice down to the

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Speaker 1: bone many times, and that's the individual trying in that

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Speaker 1: at that primal level to try to fend off this attacker.

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Speaker 1: I've seen blades actually pass through hands, all the way

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Speaker 1: through hands and then into bodies and because the person

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Speaker 1: is putting their hand up in response. But this amount

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Speaker 1: of force, and it's I think that it's it's interesting

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Speaker 1: in this case because of the structure of this weapon

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Speaker 1: that he could generate a lot of force. As he's

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Speaker 1: driving this into her body, he's in a dominant position

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Speaker 1: over her. My assumption is that she would be essentially

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Speaker 1: in a supine position, which means face up. He's face

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Speaker 1: to face with her. He's on top of her all right,

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Speaker 1: and straddling her perhaps, and he's plunging this knife over

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Speaker 1: and over and over again. There's nothing she can do

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Speaker 1: to escape this event. But from a forensic standpoint, every

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Speaker 1: time this occurs, this event there's a transference of evidence.

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Speaker 1: You have her bodily fluids, the blood transferring onto him,

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Speaker 1: perhaps her hair we talked about there was actually hair

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Speaker 1: that was found on the surface of the knife. And

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Speaker 1: many times the perpetrators will in fact cut themselves. This

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Speaker 1: is not like shooting where you're at a distance, you

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Speaker 1: pop off around at somebody. Now you're up close and personal,

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Speaker 1: and as they're fighting, you're fighting, and many times the

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Speaker 1: perpetrator will cut themselves and so that blood leaches onto

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Speaker 1: the body of the victim and also all of the

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Speaker 1: surrounding area on the floor of the surfaces of any

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Speaker 1: kind of furniture that happens to be there, seeing a

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Speaker 1: toilet or a sofa, even you'll find what's referred to,

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Speaker 1: and this is an important word, a co mingling. A

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Speaker 1: co mingling a blood that occurs. And so we have

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Speaker 1: to kind of separate that out and you begin to

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Speaker 1: look at that, and suddenly a narrative develops scientifically, at

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Speaker 1: least because we're not there to witness this event, but

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Speaker 1: we can understand this narrative as it's being played out

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Speaker 1: of what the dynamics of this event were. The dynamics

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about that a little bit, Joe,

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Speaker 1: because I don't understand, and you and I have talked

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Speaker 1: about blunt force sharp force injuries often, but when you

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Speaker 1: are stabbed like so many times, is it a process

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Speaker 1: of you bleeding out over time or did they actually

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Speaker 1: hit the heart in your heart stopped immediately? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is there ever a way to know which incident actually

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Speaker 1: caused the death? Knol? I absolutely love this question, and

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Speaker 1: this is why when when and I urge anybody that's

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Speaker 1: truly interested in medical legal death investigation, find an autopsy

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Speaker 1: report that involves multiple stab wounds, and one of the

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Speaker 1: little caveats is always contained in these autopsy reports is

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Speaker 1: that the pathologists will say something like, even though these

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Speaker 1: injuries are enumerated, you know one through I don't know,

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Speaker 1: or one through a hundred, this does not imply sequencing.

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Speaker 1: There's no way to tell. The only dividing line that

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Speaker 1: you have and these kind of cases is is there

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage associated with this injury or is there no hemorrhage?

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Speaker 1: And again that's our big demarcation there between life and death.

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Speaker 1: That means that if there is hemorrhage present, we know

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Speaker 1: that the individual was insulted prior to death that means

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Speaker 1: their heart is still beating and you've got blood coursing

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Speaker 1: through the body, and you have this kind of hemorrhage

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Speaker 1: that's into the soft tissues. And and then we look

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Speaker 1: at it from the other perspective, where we have injuries

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Speaker 1: where there is no hemorrhage whatsoever. And so you have

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Speaker 1: to wait, wait, So how can that be? How can

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Speaker 1: you have an injury and there not be a hemorrhage. Well,

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Speaker 1: you can have a post mortem injury. You can have

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Speaker 1: post mortem injury. You made a good point just a

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Speaker 1: second ago when you talk about you plunge the knife

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Speaker 1: into the heart and suddenly, because there's mechanical damage to

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Speaker 1: the heart, at that point in time, the individual is

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Speaker 1: going to go into arrest. They're going to die, all right,

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Speaker 1: and it will be immediate in that case. So anything

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Speaker 1: that might follow after that. And I know some people

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Speaker 1: will argue with this because there's this kind of agonable

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Speaker 1: thing that goes on, but it if the heart mechanically

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Speaker 1: is damaged to the point where the individual goes into rest,

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Speaker 1: the logical assumption is is that there's no longer blood

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Speaker 1: coursing through the body, So you're not necessarily going to

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Speaker 1: present with hemorrhage in any kind of post mortem wound,

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Speaker 1: because you're not going to have no longer the physical

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Speaker 1: facility to hemorrhage into that specific area. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: very important because it goes into when you begin to

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Speaker 1: look at this from the perspective of not just the forensics,

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Speaker 1: but also kind of mindset of the individual that was

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Speaker 1: perpetrating this crime, because these are gonna be questions that

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Speaker 1: that you're gonna be asked on the stand if you're

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist or forensic specialists. They're going to ask you, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, in your opinion, how many of these injuries

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Speaker 1: were anti mortem before death and how many were after Well,

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Speaker 1: if you've an anti mortem, which means before death, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about bringing about the death. But then from a

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Speaker 1: lawyer's perspective, if they can demonstrate a prosebratorial perspective, they

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Speaker 1: can demonstrate that there's all these post mortem injuries. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: suddenly the accused becomes such a bigger monster at that

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Speaker 1: point in time because now you weren't you weren't satisfied

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Speaker 1: with killing or ending this person's life. You went to

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Speaker 1: rip on to shreds and destroy what was left of

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Speaker 1: their body. When you walk onto a scene involving sharp

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Speaker 1: force injuries, I gotta tell you, out of all the

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Speaker 1: cases I've worked, when you're in this environment where there's

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Speaker 1: so much blood, it's it's very perplexing. It's a it's

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Speaker 1: a daunting task because you're sitting there and you're saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: my Lord, where where do I begin? Where do I begin?

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Speaker 1: Because everything is literally and I mean this in the

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Speaker 1: literal sense. Our friends in Great Britain use this term

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Speaker 1: all the time, but in the literal sense, everything is

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Speaker 1: a bloody mess. I don't even think that begins to

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Speaker 1: cover what went on in this case. Joe. This is

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Speaker 1: going to be so disturbing, and I want to warn

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Speaker 1: people now what we're going to talk about is truly disturbing.

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Speaker 1: If you have children in the room. I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: anybody would listen to us with children in the room.

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Speaker 1: But if there are children in the room, you might

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Speaker 1: want to put on some headphones because this is truly disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Tammy Joe Blanton's body had been heavily mutilated. Not only

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Speaker 1: was she stabbed in the head, chest, and neck, the

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Speaker 1: front portion of her skull had been opened, A portion

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Speaker 1: of her brain, lungs, and most of her heart had

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Speaker 1: been damaged or removed. Joe, I really don't even know

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Speaker 1: what kind of question to ask you about this, because

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Speaker 1: how can somebody do that? And what kind of force

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Speaker 1: would it take to crack open somebody's skull to remove

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Speaker 1: the brain. It's important that you and it's easy. This

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Speaker 1: is easier said than done. Trust me, we're not the

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Speaker 1: people who go out on these scenes were not super people,

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Speaker 1: all right. We're not. We're not immune to the things

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing, all right, because that's at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. You've checked your humanity out a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: We're still impacted by this. But you have to be

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Speaker 1: focused on this scientifically and to try to understand what

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing relative to the findings, the physical findings

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Speaker 1: that's seen. Okay, you can't just check out and say

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do this. I mean you have to

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Speaker 1: do this. You have to to understand what's going on.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that, yes, the frontal portion of her skull

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Speaker 1: is missing at this point in time when they observed her,

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Speaker 1: but also we have to explain that her chest was

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Speaker 1: open to the point where the majority of her heart

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Speaker 1: was absent. As well as a segment of her long.

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Speaker 1: I I believe it's probably the left long, probably the

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Speaker 1: upper lobe of the left long, because it's immediately adjacent

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Speaker 1: to the heart, and so you have a large gaping

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Speaker 1: area there. Because it's not easy to get to. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's you might think that it would be. You see

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Speaker 1: movies and all that stuff, and forget all the nonsense.

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Speaker 1: It's not an easy undertaking this. This takes work. It

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Speaker 1: takes a determined person in order to do this, particularly

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Speaker 1: if you're not equipped with the tools, say for instance,

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Speaker 1: that you know you might find in in surgery or

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Speaker 1: in the autopsy suite. Remember when when they're doing surgery,

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Speaker 1: they actually have an instrument that's referred to as a

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Speaker 1: rib spreader, all right, And these things have been developed

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Speaker 1: for this particular type of event as it applies to

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Speaker 1: therapeutic surgeries that take place. Not in this sense, though,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a mutilation. I'm I'm hesitant to

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Speaker 1: refer to this as a dismemberment where the body is

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Speaker 1: taken apart in segments. Necessarily, this is an attempt to

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Speaker 1: remove specific parts of the body, all right. When I

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Speaker 1: think of dismemberment, I think about essentially taking apart at

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Speaker 1: the joints, the risk the elbows, shoulders, those sorts of

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Speaker 1: that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a mutilation at this point. We're talking about mutilation. And

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Speaker 1: to your point, it's you would have to sit there

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Speaker 1: and think, well, what in the world am I looking

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Speaker 1: at here? Because you know, with a dismemberment, for instance,

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, if there is obviously side that's been committed, well,

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Speaker 1: why would somebody dismember somebody? Most of the time, people

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Speaker 1: dismember bodies in order to make it easier to transport

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Speaker 1: individual pieces so that they can dispose of them in

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Speaker 1: a manner which they put as much distance between themselves

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Speaker 1: and the bodies. They can make it easily transportable those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. You've entered into a different sphere here

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about mutilation and you're facilitating

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Speaker 1: this to get someone's skull open. And when I use

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Speaker 1: the term daunting task, it's something that I worked for

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Speaker 1: many years as an autopsy assistant path assistant and participated in,

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Speaker 1: you know, roughly seven thousand autopsies during that period of time.

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Speaker 1: And if you do a complete autopsy, you you open

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Speaker 1: them would be very frankly. You open the skull. That's

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Speaker 1: what you do. But we have a very specific instrument

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Speaker 1: that we use for that. It's called a bone saw,

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Speaker 1: and it's an agitating saw. So you hear in the

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Speaker 1: movies they use this high hitched buzzing sound that will

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Speaker 1: simulate but one of the saws being used on bodies

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and it agitates. It's if

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Speaker 1: people have ever had a cast removed. Okay, if you've

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Speaker 1: ever had a cast remove you had a broken bone,

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Speaker 1: that's very very similar to this agitating saw. So just

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Speaker 1: think about that for a second. That's not what was

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Speaker 1: utilized here got kind of a reveal here is the

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Speaker 1: fact that they found a jigsaw. A jigsaw president scene.

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Speaker 1: And this is not something with a big, robust blade,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that's normally placed on a flat surface.

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Speaker 1: You think about the shape of the skull, and the

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Speaker 1: shape of the skull is is around it. So if

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Speaker 1: you're using a jigsaw, say to cut a piece of

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Speaker 1: plywood or something like that, you place it on the

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Speaker 1: edge and you move forward with it and you can

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Speaker 1: cut out and that sort of thing. But you've got

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Speaker 1: that under control to utilize a jigsaw. In this particular case,

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Speaker 1: in order to open say this frontal bone, which is

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Speaker 1: arguably the most robust bone in the human skull, you

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Speaker 1: just tap your forehead that sort of area, very thick,

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Speaker 1: very hard to get an edge on it. You've got

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Speaker 1: this this saw blade that is going up and down

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Speaker 1: kind of like the only thing I can really equate

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Speaker 1: it to is almost like the needle on a sewing

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Speaker 1: machine that's going up and down like that, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to the agitating saw that you used to remove a

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Speaker 1: cast or a bone. Saw it kind of goes backwards

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Speaker 1: and forth like that, and then the blades are around it.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to use. In this case, this would have

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Speaker 1: taken so much time. I mean, it would have taken

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Speaker 1: a protracted period of time. And again there's a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of soft tissue dissection that would probably have to

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Speaker 1: go on. That means you have to remove most of

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Speaker 1: the time any kind of soft tissue that would impede

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Speaker 1: that blade's ability to cut through that bony surface. And

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Speaker 1: then once you have at least made a single entrance

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Speaker 1: into that bony surface, how how exactly what direction are

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Speaker 1: you going to go? Now? Are you going to take

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Speaker 1: the tip of this, you know, Remember it's acting like

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Speaker 1: a sewing machine, going up and down, up and down,

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Speaker 1: up and down. Do you insert into this little defect

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Speaker 1: that you've created and then kind of buzz it out

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Speaker 1: along that area? If this is something that you have

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Speaker 1: no experience within, let's face it, I can't imagine there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people out there that have experience with

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Speaker 1: mutilation of human remains. What do you do as you're

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Speaker 1: sitting there in this world that you have painted with

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Speaker 1: another human beings blood and you're holding this individual's head

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Speaker 1: in your lap as you're doing this, do you have

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Speaker 1: it braced in some way? When she was found, she

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Speaker 1: was actually found in the tub covered with what turned

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Speaker 1: up to be a tarp, And so the workings of

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Speaker 1: the scene are going to be very complicated from a

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Speaker 1: forensic standpoint to understand what was physically done there, what

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Speaker 1: the position of her body was at that particular time,

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Speaker 1: what the position of the perpetrators body was relative to

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Speaker 1: her body, and the rest of the environment. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: have a lot of transfer of blood evidence and trace

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Speaker 1: evidence and everything else. It would be an absolute nightmare

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Speaker 1: to figure yourself in my wild streams. I can't even

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Speaker 1: begin to kind of understand how you prepare yourself if

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Speaker 1: you're the perpetrator of a of the mutilation, how do

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Speaker 1: you prepare yourself? But you know, how how do you

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Speaker 1: determine what tools to show up with? How do you

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Speaker 1: how do you figure out the logistics of it? Is

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Speaker 1: this is something that is done at the spur of

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Speaker 1: the moment and you grab whatever is handy, or is

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Speaker 1: this something that you're pre prepared to do at that

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Speaker 1: given time. I don't know. It boggles the mind, it does,

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Speaker 1: and I think the jury and the judge when over

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Speaker 1: Hansley was charged in Dammy jumb Letton's death, it was

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Speaker 1: something they truly had to consider because over Handsley claimed

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Speaker 1: to be incompetent, and in fact was deemed incompetent to

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Speaker 1: stand trial. So there were claims that over hands lewis schizophrenic.

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Speaker 1: He had in the past, Joe, you can kind of

400
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Speaker 1: weigh in on this here in just a second. He

401
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Speaker 1: had been accused and convicted of shooting his high school girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: She died. He had also shot his mother, so he

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Speaker 1: had been convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to twelve years

404
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: where he had killed the mother of his child. He

405
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Speaker 1: said he was in a meth rage. He also shot

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Speaker 1: his mother and ultimately, though over Hansley was deemed sane

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Speaker 1: at the time of Tammy Joe Blnton's murder. But here's

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Speaker 1: the truly horrendous as if we have not talked about

409
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Speaker 1: a terrible crime here, Joe Joseph over Handsley was a cannibal.

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Speaker 1: He ate Timmy Joe Blanton's brain, parts of her heart,

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Speaker 1: and parts of her lawn. I'm really truly at a

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Speaker 1: loss for words. Joe talked about plumbing the depths of depravity.

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Speaker 1: You begin to think about this and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: we've got a mutilation. Now we've got an individual that

415
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Speaker 1: has taken organs from somebody that they were involved in

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Speaker 1: a relationship with. And not only had he eviscerated her,

417
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Speaker 1: which means removal of organs, but he had prepared to organs.

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Speaker 1: He essentially prepared them on stove and then he ingested again.

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Speaker 1: I think our default position here has to be the

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Speaker 1: science behind this, because I don't know that it is

421
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Speaker 1: even possible to explain the rationale for having done this.

422
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Speaker 1: But what we do know is that these elements were

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Speaker 1: in fact consumed. And uh, there's one part of this

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Speaker 1: is kind of kind of fascinating to me. I guess

425
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: as fascinating it could possibly be was the fact that

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Speaker 1: he had claimed at one point in time that the

427
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: removal of the brain essentially was his attempt two find

428
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: her third eye. And this is a very metaphysical thing,

429
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 1: and it's not something I fully grasp, but the at

430
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: a base level, the third eye is this metaphysical presence

431
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 1: that's within the brain and can see things on a

432
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,479
Speaker 1: different plane in these sorts of things. I do know

433
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: that some of the items that were found at the

434
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: at the scene included tongs and they were covered with blood,

435
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: and I think these are tongs very similar to maybe

436
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: salad tongs or tongs that you would use when preparing

437
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: a meal on a grill. This word of thing, and

438
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: if you have to understand with human anatomy, if you're

439
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: opening up just one portion of the skull and removing

440
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: that and then going into that, there is an attempt

441
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: on the part of the person because you can't remove

442
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: it the way we do at autopsy. There is a

443
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: process where you would literally have to dig out the

444
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: brain or scoop out the brain in order to make

445
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: this happen, and then purpose to prepare the brain so

446
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: that you can ingested. And one point that we need

447
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: to go back to here is that at a very

448
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: early age, when he was still in Utah, he had

449
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: demonstrated a very violent behavior. If you're to the point

450
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: where you can shoot the mother of your own child

451
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: and she's just a teenager, she's just a teenager, he

452
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: cold bloodedly shot her and then shot his own mother.

453
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: And then I guess when he began to assess that

454
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: at that particular time, decided that he was going to

455
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: take his own life and shot himself as well. So

456
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication as to mindset, you know,

457
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: because people I hate the word why it's I don't.

458
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: I don't particularly like it because it's not very scientific

459
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,239
Speaker 1: most of the time, because you know, why is is?

460
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: There are many degrees to why. We'll just say that

461
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: it's hard to to quantify why. Um. But you sit

462
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: there and you begin to think, well why. I think

463
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: that we have to fall back to how how was

464
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: this done or how could he have done this? And

465
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: we have indications that he was very violent in the past,

466
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: But yet here he is, he's out, he's out of incarceration,

467
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: he's made his way to Indiana, and when his trial

468
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: was going on, and when he was initially charged, there

469
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: was some indication that he was perfectly lucid. He had

470
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: attempted to have a spontaneous news conference at one point

471
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: time as he's shackled walking around. I can only think,

472
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: can you imagine and being the the the deputies that

473
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: are having to escort this guy around. You think he's

474
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: in shackles there and what he's perpetrated, and you're conveying

475
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: this guy from one area to another, and again it

476
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: goes back to the people that initially showed up at

477
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: the scene, uh, Tammy Joe's homicide. I can I think

478
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: that that would transfer over to these individuals too. They're

479
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: having to deal with him on a regular basis, and

480
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: he seemed perfectly lucid. He's he's saying that he is not.

481
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: He is not, in fact, in saying that there are

482
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: other people to blame. He even stated that he gave

483
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: them an alternative reason for what happened, that he was

484
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: knocked out at the scene and there were two people

485
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: that entered her home and did this horrible deed to

486
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: Tammy Joe. But yet they let him survive. Okay, So

487
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to teach me here, Joe, because I'm

488
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: hearing everything that you're saying. But I can't get past

489
00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: the part of the word eat. Okay, he ate her organs.

490
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: So hannibalism why I get Well, I can't ask you

491
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: why because you don't like the word whine. Tell me

492
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 1: about cannibalism? Is it just you? People who do this

493
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: have a desire to taste the flesh? Do they have

494
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: a desire to you know? I I understand in some

495
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: other cultures in ancient times, the idea was if you

496
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: killed someone a warrior and you ate their organs, that

497
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: it gave you power. I mean, what is it with cannibalism. Yeah,

498
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: it's from an anthropological standpoint where these people are studied,

499
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: you have what's referred to as kind of a ritualized cannibalism,

500
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: like you you had mentioned, you know, where you're gonna

501
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: eat a portion of your enemy's body and give you

502
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: strength and all the sorts of things. I think, if

503
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, I think that there's one tribe that

504
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: still participates in cannibalism in New Guinea, a very isolated

505
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: group of people. And again it's a form of ritualized

506
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: ingestion of human remains. You have a separate section that

507
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: is survival. You have people that that are depended upon

508
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: another human beings body as sustenance. We think back to

509
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: the dinner party. That's many people for them, that's their

510
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: their default position back in the eighteen hundreds when they

511
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: were trying to get across the past and they were

512
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: frozen in and they had they had nothing to nourish

513
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: themselves with. There's a number of people that have been

514
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: at sea. I think that had to resort to cannibalism.

515
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: And of course famously we've we've got the the athletic

516
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: team that crash and the Andies back in the seventies.

517
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: The book was written about them alive, I think. But

518
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: that's for survival, all right, What what's the really curious group?

519
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: Here are these homicidal cannibals And how do you study this?

520
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: Because yeah, there are there are stories of this. There

521
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: are certainly cases, you know, I guess famously the most

522
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: obvious one is Damer That comes to mind, you know,

523
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: in the last forty years, and he's he again he

524
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: was the reason he made the news like he did,

525
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: I think is because it was it was so shocking,

526
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: so and the public couldn't get enough of it. They

527
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: were watching this day after day. I had friends that

528
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: were involved in the investigation up in Milwaukee in this

529
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: in this case, and yeah, it was absolutely horrific. And

530
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: he but he was very systematic about this. He would

531
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,239
Speaker 1: choose victims and this sort of thing, and there's all

532
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: kinds of psychopathology that went on with him. But still

533
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: he was deemed saying he was deemed saying he wasn't.

534
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: He wasn't a raving maniac. He was very much in control.

535
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: It's very difficult I think for us to get past

536
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: this as well, it should be past this idea of

537
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: consumption of another person's body. Again, back to the why question.

538
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: I don't know that we will ever have an answer

539
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: to why. That is purely definitive. I would think at

540
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: least that there's some kind of power thing that's going on.

541
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: Not only am I going to stab you to death?

542
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: Not only am I gonna sexually assault you? And again

543
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: that's another piece to Tammy Joe's case. There's also evidence

544
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: that he sexually assaulted her. And again we don't know

545
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: if that was anti mortem before death or if it

546
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: was postmortem. Where you have a necrophiliac event that's going on.

547
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: And again that's something that Doahmer did. He was a necrophile,

548
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: which means he had a sexual orientation toward the dead.

549
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: We don't know what the status was with that. Again,

550
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: power control and then total dominance. Maybe in these individuals

551
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: minds is the consumption of the remains. They've dominated this

552
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: individual in every other way possible, and I'll show you.

553
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: I'll even bring it down to the point where I'm

554
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: going to ingest your mortal remains. I don't know that

555
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: there's any any kind of peace anybody could have over this,

556
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 1: but just know this, Joseph Overhands Lee was convicted. He

557
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: was convicted, and he's been sentenced to life in prison

558
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

559
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: this is Body backsh