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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three oh six of the

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Have you heard? My

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Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,

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Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to

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Speaker 1: take when it's time to end of friendship. We'll have

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Speaker 1: lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood heels

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Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. We've had dozens

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Speaker 1: of therapists on the podcast sharing their perspectives on various

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Speaker 1: topics from friendship, to meditation, and even horror movies. But

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Speaker 1: have you ever wondered what it takes to become a

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Speaker 1: licensed therapist? Well, the road isn't paved in gold, more

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Speaker 1: like a few years of school and thousands of hours

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Speaker 1: of supervised practice. But don't fret. The second installment of

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Speaker 1: our Becoming a Therapist series is for our community members

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Speaker 1: who are therapists, sisters looking to enter the field, and

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Speaker 1: everyone in between. Joining me today are therapist doctor Kimberly

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Speaker 1: Applewhite based in Utah, and doctor DeAndrea Jackson based in Ohio.

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Speaker 1: My colleagues and I got candid about our journeys and

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Speaker 1: talked all things personal development, business administration, insurance, paneling, and more.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share it with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: TBG in session or join us in the sister circles

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Speaker 1: To talk more in depth about the episode, you can

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Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. So I'm excited for us to dive

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Speaker 1: into part two of this conversation. So we did part

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Speaker 1: one of becoming a therapist several weeks ago, got lots

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Speaker 1: of great feedback beginning therapists, people who want to be

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Speaker 1: therapists were very excited and really wanted us to continue

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Speaker 1: this conversation. We're excited to have you join us today

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Speaker 1: for part two of the conversation. So, doctor Jackson, could

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Speaker 1: you start by introducing yourself and talk to us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your educational background, where you practice, and

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Speaker 1: what excites you about being a therapist.

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Speaker 2: I am DeAndrea Jackson. I have a PID. I graduated

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Speaker 2: from undergrad from oak Wood University and HPCU and Huntsville, Alabama,

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Speaker 2: and I received my doctoral degree in clinical psychology from

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Speaker 2: the American School with Professional Psychology. While I was studying,

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Speaker 2: I decided I was going to serve my country. I

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Speaker 2: was an active duty psychologist for seven and a half

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Speaker 2: years prior to launching into private practice. Since I've been

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Speaker 2: working independently and enjoying the space getting to serve black

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Speaker 2: women through telehealth therapy. And my practice is primarily based

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Speaker 2: in Ohio.

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Speaker 1: What about you, Doctor Appleoit.

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Speaker 3: So I am a licensed clinical psychologist. I have a

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Speaker 3: doctorate in psychology also for cop Graduate School of Psychology,

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Speaker 3: which is associated with Yeshiva University in Bronx, New York.

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Speaker 3: I attended New York University for undergrad and then went

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Speaker 3: straight to graduate school from there. I see my degree

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Speaker 3: in school and clinical child psychology. Have an interest in

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Speaker 3: working with marginalized populations, kind of complex cases, so most

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Speaker 3: of what I've done since graduation has been with adults.

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Speaker 3: So I did post doctoral fellowship at Boston Children's Hospital

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Speaker 3: where I worked with adolescents and young adults there, and

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Speaker 3: since moving to Utah where I currently reside, I've done

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Speaker 3: mostly work with adults in a dialectical behavior therapy paradigm,

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Speaker 3: which I love. It allows me to do a lot

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Speaker 3: of skills based work with people who live pretty complex

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Speaker 3: lives but still see kids from time to sign until

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Speaker 3: identify as a child psychologist. I've also been able to

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Speaker 3: build practice here to try to cater to the BIPOD

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Speaker 3: community here out West, and so that's what I'm into.

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Speaker 3: I also do some I guess you could call it

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Speaker 3: religious thought leading with the primary religious group out here

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Speaker 3: in Utah. So that's a big part of my professional

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Speaker 3: work as well.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful and thank you'll both for then. So, doctor apple White,

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Speaker 1: I did see online that you had a pretty cool

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Speaker 1: presentation that I wonder if you could talk with us about.

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Speaker 1: So you did a presentation connecting ACT and DBT principles

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Speaker 1: to quants of principles. Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that and what that looked like?

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Speaker 2: I can.

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Speaker 3: First of all, I love what's called third wave orientations

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Speaker 3: to psychotherapy. So much of what we've learned was developed

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Speaker 3: honestly by old white people, and acting DBT are really

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Speaker 3: no exceptions to this, except maybe they were middle aged

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Speaker 3: white people. But anyway, I think that from the language

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Speaker 3: of especially what we can call evidence based treatment, so

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Speaker 3: much of it has punitive language around it, and so

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Speaker 3: much of evidence based treatment was not tested on or

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Speaker 3: developed with the experiences of bipop people in mind. And

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Speaker 3: so I tend to think that third wave paradigms for

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Speaker 3: treatment like DBT and ACT have the best potential for

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Speaker 3: being able to incorporate a wide variety of perspectives because

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Speaker 3: they both value the behavioral principle of contextualism that says

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Speaker 3: that basically things don't have meaning unless you can put

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Speaker 3: them in the context where they're relevant. So if we're

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Speaker 3: not doing relevant work, then it's not work at all.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that DBT and ACT both have

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Speaker 3: a lot of orientation to values as part of the

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Speaker 3: paradigm for understanding emotions, understanding the function of what our

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Speaker 3: bodies are telling us we want to move toward. And

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Speaker 3: so there's so much wisdom in our communities in what

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Speaker 3: African American culture has tried to develop from a context

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Speaker 3: of colonialization and being taken from our motherlands that I

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Speaker 3: think that we have as a people come to an

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Speaker 3: understanding of how important it is to anchor ourselves to

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Speaker 3: the things that are most important. And when Kunza was developed,

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Speaker 3: it is a very values based perspective that says, how

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Speaker 3: are we going to tend to our communities, how are

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Speaker 3: we going to develop the greater good of our people?

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Speaker 3: How are we going to develop purpose in ourselves? And

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Speaker 3: so much of that resonates with the best parts of

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Speaker 3: what I love about DBT and ACT. That the presentation

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Speaker 3: that we did, and it was with a group of

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Speaker 3: black clinicians that we have here in Utah. We were

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Speaker 3: using quants of principles to help people develop an understanding

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Speaker 3: of connecting to values, how you use that to develop

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Speaker 3: into a purpose driven life, how you use your values

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Speaker 3: to evaluate different decisions or choice points that you're at,

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Speaker 3: to define what hooks you, and doing that within a

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Speaker 3: culturally relevant context, the realities of doing a lot of

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Speaker 3: this work in predominantly white context. So, yeah, it's fun,

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Speaker 3: I think the more when you look at how values

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Speaker 3: have been defined, even in these therapy paradigms, it's still

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Speaker 3: pretty white and western centric, and so bringing in the

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Speaker 3: wisdom of our communities is really meaningful to me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. It sounds really interesting. So you use the

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Speaker 1: term that I want to make sure we have clarity

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Speaker 1: on for people who may not be familiar. So you

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Speaker 1: talked about it as a third wave kind of theoretical orientation.

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Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit more about what that means.

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Speaker 3: I can try. So, I'm guessing that the first wave

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Speaker 3: of things in psychotherapy is probably what a lot of

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Speaker 3: people think of when you're thinking about going to therapy,

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Speaker 3: like the psychodynamic Freudian like it's all your mom's fault,

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Speaker 3: like ego drives and things like that. The basis of

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Speaker 3: like therapy work that psychiatrists were doing and then from

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Speaker 3: that came I guess what you would call the second

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Speaker 3: wave of what was popular in therapy cognitive and behavioral paradigm.

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Speaker 3: So looking at a lot of things in our society

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Speaker 3: are built on behaviorism, like this idea of you know,

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Speaker 3: giving kids dinner and saying you can have dessert afterwards

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Speaker 3: is a behavioral principle. A lot of programs in schools

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Speaker 3: like rewards systems or behavioral and so that second wave

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Speaker 3: of what people were doing in therapy was just looking at,

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Speaker 3: like how we can teach people to do stuff based

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Speaker 3: on getting a better sense of like what consequences would

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Speaker 3: come or what would be the impact of their behavior.

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Speaker 3: And then third wave psychology paradigms tend to take the

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Speaker 3: behavioral aspects of things but look at it really with

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Speaker 3: what I think is a more holistic approach, and that

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Speaker 3: people might develop strategies and ways that were responding to

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Speaker 3: things that were helpful in the context that they developed

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Speaker 3: them and the problems that people face. Growing up as

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Speaker 3: a black girl in the South, I developed all these

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Speaker 3: coping strategies right to like not be seen by people,

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Speaker 3: like not look as though I was making trouble in school,

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Speaker 3: Like if I had trouble with something I didn't ask,

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Speaker 3: and maybe those things were adaptive, but then you get

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Speaker 3: to graduate school and those things are no longer adaptive

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Speaker 3: because if you're not talking to your professors, they don't

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Speaker 3: know what you know. Increases the likelihood that they're making

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Speaker 3: judgments about you, especially if you're black and so like

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Speaker 3: in this body, I'm like, well, what is going on?

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Speaker 3: Because I had all these things that worked and now

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Speaker 3: they're not working as well. Those are the things that

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Speaker 3: third way treatments tend to be better at because they

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Speaker 3: look at contexts and they also look at how can

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Speaker 3: you accept more of the things that you have learned,

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Speaker 3: accept more of the messages that your body's trying to send,

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Speaker 3: and figure out from there what you want to do

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Speaker 3: to commit to an action that's going to be In DBT,

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Speaker 3: we say more effective third way treatment incorporate more validation,

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Speaker 3: self compassion, just really feeling those things that you've brought

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Speaker 3: with you, honoring them while also figuring out how much

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Speaker 3: of that you want to keep, how much of that

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Speaker 3: you want to set to the side, how much of

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Speaker 3: it you want to put in your pocket so that

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Speaker 3: it doesn't affect where you want to go in essence

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Speaker 3: is the message of what you would call third wave paradigms.

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Speaker 1: Appreciating that, Thank you so much so, doctor Jackson. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned being an active duty Navy psychologist, So can you

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Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit about the decision to

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Speaker 1: go down that path and what does a Navy psychologist

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Speaker 1: do on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 2: Oh, the decision to go down the path of Navy

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Speaker 2: psychology was one that was influenced by a long family

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Speaker 2: history of military service. My grandfather, my father, my aunt,

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Speaker 2: my uncles all were part of different branches of the military.

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Speaker 2: But I decided to go to the Navy because I

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Speaker 2: am a daddy's girl, although the secret is applied to

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Speaker 2: the Air Force first, and they changed their scholarship requirements

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Speaker 2: as I was going through the process, and so, okay,

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Speaker 2: I guess that'll be ownership somewhere. And so I decided

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Speaker 2: to apply to the Navy in part because they offer

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Speaker 2: what's called a health professions scholarship program. And as you

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Speaker 2: all though, obtaining a doctorate in clinical psychology is no

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Speaker 2: inexpensive feet and I wanted to set myself up for

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Speaker 2: success in the future. In addition to the pride in

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Speaker 2: terms of military service. So I decided I would apply,

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Speaker 2: and as life had it that I was the first

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Speaker 2: recipient of that particular scholarship in twenty years. They hadn't

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Speaker 2: given it for so long, they opened it back up

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Speaker 2: while I was looking, and so I went through the

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Speaker 2: process and I was commissioned as a commissioned officer. You

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Speaker 2: go through Officer Development School, which is not exactly like

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Speaker 2: boot camp, but you do that training and then once

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Speaker 2: you finish learning how to be a naval officer, you

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Speaker 2: report to your duty stations for internship. Much like other

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Speaker 2: internship processes, ours is a year long for training at

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Speaker 2: the predoctoral level, and then after you finish your predoctoral

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Speaker 2: training and get license, you're then assigned to whatever billet

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Speaker 2: the Navy needs. Needs the Navy come first, and it

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Speaker 2: really depends on the billet that you're in what type

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Speaker 2: of job you do. So I have friends who are

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Speaker 2: operational psychologists who have done tours on aircraft carriers. I

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Speaker 2: was a hospital psychologist, so I saw active duty personnel

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Speaker 2: sometimes their beneficiaries, like their spouses. We don't see children

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Speaker 2: typically in the outpatient environment unless you've specialized as a

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Speaker 2: child psychologist. I also saw retirees as well, veterans not

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Speaker 2: typically through our system unless they are retirees. And so

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Speaker 2: much of the day as an active duty psychologist in

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Speaker 2: a hospital setting is doing what we do in private

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Speaker 2: practice or in a hospital sort of service center, and

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Speaker 2: you just see clients. You provide evidence based therapy, whether

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Speaker 2: it is brief cycled thing, cognitive behavioral therapy. I ran

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Speaker 2: a DBT group for a while, so much of what

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Speaker 2: doctor apple White was saying sounds very familiar to me too,

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Speaker 2: and that was pretty much what we did. We have

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Speaker 2: little adventures here and there, of course, as activeduty service

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Speaker 2: members with what you're volun told to do. Some of

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Speaker 2: those things you can talk about and some of those

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Speaker 2: things you can't. But it's great exposure and it was

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Speaker 2: phenomenal training. And while I was on activity, I had

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Speaker 2: the privilege of being able to spearhead some telehealth work

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Speaker 2: that was before it was really all that popular. It

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Speaker 2: was really new. Nobody wanted to dabble into it very much,

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Speaker 2: but I was able to dip my toe in the water,

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Speaker 2: and once I got exposed to that, I absolutely loved it,

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Speaker 2: which was a stepping stone to where I am now.

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Speaker 2: So it's also given the privilege of being able to

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Speaker 2: provide supervision for predoctoral training students or predoctoral interns coming

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Speaker 2: through the Navy pipeline, and that was a wonderful experience

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Speaker 2: as well being able to make a mark on the

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Speaker 2: community and shepherd baby psychologist this into becoming credentialed and

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Speaker 2: licensed full fledged psychologists.

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Speaker 1: And what would you say for people who may be

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Speaker 1: interested in kind of following your footsteps, Like, how would

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Speaker 1: somebody go about applying for like the Navy internship. What

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Speaker 1: do they need to do?

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Speaker 2: You've got to reach out to a health professions recruiter.

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Speaker 2: They are going to be different than the typical recruiter

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Speaker 2: who's trying to bring you in on the enlisted side.

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Speaker 2: They are specifically looking for professionals who either have their

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Speaker 2: degree so you can come in already degreed and fully licensed,

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Speaker 2: or if you're looking for the scholarship program. I believe

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Speaker 2: each branch of service, not the Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force,

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Speaker 2: and Army, all three of those branches of service do

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Speaker 2: have scholarship programs and they also have internships. So if

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Speaker 2: you want to go through the scholarship program, you got

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Speaker 2: to contact on of those recruiters early. If you want

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Speaker 2: to just come in as an intern, you're supposed to

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Speaker 2: apply through the APIC program. And then if you want

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Speaker 2: to come as direct a session, let me just talk

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Speaker 2: to a health professions recruiter and you've already gotten all

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Speaker 2: of your just taken care of. The beauty though of

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Speaker 2: coming in as a scholarship student, at least when I

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Speaker 2: came in, was that you didn't have to go through

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Speaker 2: the APICK process. So I know a lot of people

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Speaker 2: have gone through that sort of very expensive, very stressful

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Speaker 2: process waiting on match day. The benefit at that time

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Speaker 2: was that the specific sites for scholarship students, because they

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Speaker 2: are tied to our career and our contract, are not

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Speaker 2: specifically available to other students applying through APICK. The other

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Speaker 2: beauty is that sound like a Navy commercial. The other

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Speaker 2: beauty is they pay you while you're in school, so

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Speaker 2: not only are you tuition and fees covered, they give

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Speaker 2: you a little bit of a stipend while you're in school,

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Speaker 2: so it provides a little bit of assistance. And then

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Speaker 2: once you become active duty, you get all the great

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Speaker 2: benefits of healthcare and life insurance and great paycheck. Once

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Speaker 2: you really get licensed, great paycheck. So those are all

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Speaker 2: the wonderful things about participating in a military specific internship.

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Speaker 1: Got it, thank you, So it's something we didn't get

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Speaker 1: a chance to get to in part. One of this

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Speaker 1: conversation was of the personal development piece that is required

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Speaker 1: to become a therapist. So one of our community members

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Speaker 1: wrote on Instagram at Jump for Joe, she said, I

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Speaker 1: definitely didn't expect the healing it forced me to do

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Speaker 1: in places I thought were already healed. It has made

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Speaker 1: me a more attuned human so that I'm able to

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Speaker 1: properly show up not just for my clients in the

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Speaker 1: therapeutic space, but also for myself and loved ones. So

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Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from both of you a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like your own personal development and like what

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Speaker 1: kinds of things have you learned about yourself or had

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Speaker 1: to attend to in your work as a practicing clinician.

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Speaker 2: Well, I got a lot of feedback in internship. I

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Speaker 2: was a fixer when I first came in, and so

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to dive right in there and try

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Speaker 2: to give my clients the answer as as opposed to

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Speaker 2: accompanying them on the journey of building insight. And developing

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Speaker 2: that sense of self awareness and that mindfulness of what

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Speaker 2: it is that they're dealing with and helping them put

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Speaker 2: those puzzle pieces together. So on the outside I was

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Speaker 2: kind of like, Oh, I see this, and let's do this,

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Speaker 2: and we can at this and we can do that.

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Speaker 2: And that was sometimes not helpful for my clients and

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Speaker 2: internship because they didn't learn from the process. So I

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Speaker 2: had to learn to hush myself in session. And I

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Speaker 2: also had to learn to monitor my nonverbals. I think

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Speaker 2: that was really another one for me, because my face

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Speaker 2: will speak before I have an opportunity to, and with

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Speaker 2: all my black girl energy that I was trying not

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Speaker 2: to bring to the military space because it didn't seem

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Speaker 2: like a warm, welcoming environment for that, that used to

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Speaker 2: be a challenge for me. I also, upon embarking on

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Speaker 2: treating trauma, had to learn to work through my own

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Speaker 2: stuff that I thought was healed but was not. And

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Speaker 2: especially in the context of providing manual based therapy like

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Speaker 2: cognitive processing therapy or prolonged exposure, those kind of things

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Speaker 2: can really have an impact, especially once you start doing

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Speaker 2: it regularly with multiple clients, and so sitting with that

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Speaker 2: and working through your own stuff, getting your own counselor,

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Speaker 2: and continuing to see your own counselor so important in

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Speaker 2: the process of becoming a therapist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with so much of that. And I

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Speaker 3: was thinking about to how when I was in graduate school,

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Speaker 3: do you think you made it right? Especially like at

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Speaker 3: a doctoral level, you're like, man, like I've gotten an

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Speaker 3: American dream or whatever. And then when I came to

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Speaker 3: do and I can remember clearly a time where we

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Speaker 3: were talking about the idea of stereotype threat. I went

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Speaker 3: to NYU. They were doing a lot of that work

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Speaker 3: at NYU, went to the leads on that was still

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Speaker 3: a professor in the Steinhart School, so I was familiar.

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Speaker 3: But then I learned that the other person, Clode Steele,

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Speaker 3: was a black man, And in my head I thought

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Speaker 3: that Clode Steele was a white woman, like I guess

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Speaker 3: I had the Danielle Steel books in mind or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So that was the first thing. And then at the

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Speaker 3: time that I was in graduate school, Norm Anderson was

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Speaker 3: the CEO of APA, and he is also a black

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Speaker 3: man who graduated from North Carolina Central University. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I mentioned I'm from the South, but I'm from North

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Speaker 3: Carolina specifically, and I went to boarding school right down

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Speaker 3: the street from NCCCU and didn't really seriously consider going

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Speaker 3: there because of really all of this internalized racist stuff, frankly,

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Speaker 3: that I had growing up as a black kid in

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Speaker 3: the South. And so when I realized that and I

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Speaker 3: noticed my surprise about that these are really successful people

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Speaker 3: and they're you know, they're black people and they grew

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Speaker 3: up similar to me, I was like, oh, crap, Like

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Speaker 3: what am I assuming about myself and my own livelihood

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Speaker 3: of being successful in graduate school? If it's really this

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Speaker 3: surprising to me that there's black people out here doing

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Speaker 3: this and to think that not everybody that getst a

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Speaker 3: graduate school is going to have those emotion skills to

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Speaker 3: be able to pinpoint something like that. And so yeah,

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Speaker 3: as long as it's undeveloped, like, realizations like that are

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Speaker 3: really jarring and difficult. And then when you get into

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Speaker 3: kind of your passions or and when I've gotten into

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Speaker 3: my passions and things that you know, I feel strongly

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Speaker 3: about caring for black youth, tending to racially stressful and

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Speaker 3: traumatic events in the community, and then you have people

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Speaker 3: kind of devalue those things, people that you think should

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Speaker 3: know better because they're all in the mental health fields.

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Speaker 3: It continues to bring up things that, like doctor Jackson

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Speaker 3: was saying, really do require what you be in your

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Speaker 3: own work, like that you have a space to process

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Speaker 3: those things. One of the reasons that I like being

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Speaker 3: a DBT therapist so much is that there is a

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Speaker 3: little bit of room, well, there is lots of room

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Speaker 3: in the model to be more self disclosing because in DBT,

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Speaker 3: a lot of times people have experienced invalidating environments and

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Speaker 3: that's where they learned a lot of the ways that

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Speaker 3: they are coping with the world, and so it's important

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Speaker 3: to be genuine and appropriate ways. And so then I

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Speaker 3: really like being able to be genuine and expecting that

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Speaker 3: the type of relationships I build, people will call out

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Speaker 3: what seems like it's therapy interfering and give me that

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Speaker 3: chance to process it. But that I don't have to

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Speaker 3: put on certain types of language or put on a

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Speaker 3: front to be a certain thing that I'm not. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: you really do learn a lot of treatment paradigms say,

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Speaker 3: you know, practice the skills on yourself, and it's all

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Speaker 3: kinds of things like practicing skills of self compassion, emotion regulation,

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Speaker 3: I can't come into work tired, not having eating and

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Speaker 3: yet I have these realities, right, I have two kids

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Speaker 3: at home, I have all of these things that I'm

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Speaker 3: doing in the community, and so really have to practice

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Speaker 3: the skills to be able to do what I'm doing

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Speaker 3: on a daily basis and then to be able to

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Speaker 3: share that with clients. When we're working with skills, it's like, man,

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Speaker 3: you might want to call BS on a lot of

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Speaker 3: this because the implementation is difficult and I'm doing it

404
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Speaker 3: like we're doing it together. So, yeah, you really do

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Speaker 3: learn so much.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you sharing that, doctor apple White, And

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Speaker 1: I think that that is important for us to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about like this internalized racism and

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Speaker 1: prejudice that we grew up most of us or these

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Speaker 1: all of us talking here today grew up in America, right,

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Speaker 1: and so there is no way really for us to

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Speaker 1: not have in some ways internalized like what the world

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Speaker 1: tells us black people are and like who we should be.

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Speaker 1: And so I wonder if you can talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what kind of work should therapists do to

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Speaker 1: like even examine where those biases and those internalized messages

417
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Speaker 1: exist for themselves. And what does it look like to

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Speaker 1: like really challenge some of that.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Jackson, you said you were a Navy commercial and

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Speaker 3: now I'm like a DVT commercial. So in DVT paradigm.

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Speaker 3: There's other paradigms that break this down, but I just

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Speaker 3: really appreciate kind of the parts work that DBT does

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Speaker 3: around this. You think about all the steps to having

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Speaker 3: an emotional experience, and it's so much about like what

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Speaker 3: you see, like how your body takes it in, What

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Speaker 3: experiences have you had that make you interpret it certain ways?

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Speaker 3: What is interpretation that you give, What does your body say?

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Speaker 3: All of these things make an emotion and so understanding

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Speaker 3: that and being able to deliver that message on a

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Speaker 3: daily basis has really given me a lot of power

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Speaker 3: to name my own experiences. So in twenty twenty, when

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Speaker 3: George Floyd was murdered and we were one of the

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Speaker 3: first places in our area to go completely telehealth, and

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Speaker 3: then we stayed telehealth for probably fifteen months, almost exclusively,

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Speaker 3: but then on occasion we would come to the office

436
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: for things, and around June twenty twenty, I just did

437
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 3: not want to be around people, and I couldn't explain,

438
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: like I didn't want to leave the house. It didn't

439
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: feel like fear. But I just like, whenever I thought

440
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 3: about going to work and being around people, like my

441
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 3: stomach would hurt, and I just like I couldn't think

442
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: about talking to anyone, and so I was like, what

443
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: is this feeling a lot of times when I have

444
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: a feeling that I don't understand, I go to the worksheets.

445
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: So these worksheets break down, like they put the emotion

446
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 3: families at the top, and then they have all the

447
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 3: synonyms for the emotions right underneath that, and then they

448
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: have prompting events for emotions and then like interpretations, which

449
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 3: is basically like when you think something is happening and

450
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 3: it sets off that emotion, and then it has all

451
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: the biological changes in your body and stuff. And so

452
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: when I feel some type of way, you know, because

453
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: I've used to say to like, oh I feel some

454
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 3: type of way about this, then I go to the

455
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 3: sheets and I just look at the biological changes and

456
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 3: I say, Okay, I have at least three of these

457
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: things that might be happening, and then I flip to

458
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 3: the next page. So I always go to all ten sheets.

459
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 3: I don't rule any emotional experience is out, because yeah,

460
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 3: there was a lot of fear around that time. But

461
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 3: what I discovered was that what I was feeling was

462
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: closer to disgust. I like a lot of food, and

463
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: so I don't feel discussed very often, except you know,

464
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 3: about rats and like environmental things. But racism is one

465
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: of those things that Elicits discussed, and it was something

466
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 3: that I had not labeled before. But it helped me

467
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 3: to understand why I didn't want to be around people.

468
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be around people that would remind

469
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 3: me of things that happened, because you know how especially

470
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: the fair complaint to people will do They'll be like, oh,

471
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 3: are you okay? Like I just wanted to know if

472
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: we could do it, you know, just kind of in

473
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 3: a vague way, And so I had some stomach pains

474
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: around that. But also it's just it kind of takes

475
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 3: me back to being a little kid growing up and

476
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: just fundamentally not wanting to feel like I was different

477
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: from people, and how hard it was to be reminded

478
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 3: that I was having a different experience from other people.

479
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: That just brought on a lot of pain and also

480
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 3: discuss things and not wanting to be around people to

481
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: contaminate folks with that, And so that's something I can

482
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: check right, because my experiences and how I see the

483
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: world or not like the poison that is causing racism,

484
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 3: it's other things like racism illicits its own form of disgust.

485
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 3: But then there's so much going on with me where

486
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want to burden people with this.

487
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 3: If I let people into what's going on that, like

488
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 3: you know, it'll put people in a bad mood, it'll

489
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 3: like tamper the spirits and things. And so really applying

490
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: emotion identification skills and then regulation skills after that is

491
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 3: one part of the work that I do to bring

492
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: clarity to myself and really have compassion for like, oh,

493
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 3: my body knows things that my brain hasn't quite caught

494
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: up with yet. And just appreciating the wisdom of this

495
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 3: grand design that is our bodies, I think is pretty cool.

496
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 3: I can nerd out about emotions and functions all day, so.

497
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: If I may chime in, I always recommend looking at

498
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: our schema, right, those concepts and beliefs and ideas that

499
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: we have that are shaped early in our lives and

500
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: continue to shape the way we respond to the here

501
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: and now and even the way that we look at

502
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: the future. I like to encourage my clients and I

503
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: even do with myself explore my schemas when those kind

504
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: of things come up, whether it's race based or anything else,

505
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: to kind of see how my history is at play

506
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: in the present moment, or how a client's history is

507
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: at play in the present moment. And I think for

508
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: a lot of people, or I'll just speak for myself.

509
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: In the context of internalized racism, I had to look

510
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: at my own unrelenting standards and how those were shaped

511
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: by early life experiences in terms of messages that were

512
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: overtly given to me, you have to be twice as

513
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: good to be considered equal, or you don't have the

514
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: luxury of being mediocre. Right, Excellence is its own reward.

515
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: Those kinds of messages that were given to me to

516
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: show up in a very white world made it something

517
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: that I internalized in terms of my own expectations, and

518
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: that put a lot of pressure on me, right, and

519
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: I would kind of engage in perfectionism, or I have

520
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: to be just this way, or I have to show

521
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: up in this way, or I had to be prim

522
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: and proper, and I must use the King's English instead

523
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 2: of our vernacular. Those kinds of things came to be

524
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 2: a lot more suppressive and exhausting. And once I realized

525
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: that my own unrelenting standards got in the way of

526
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: my ability to show up authentically in spaces, I was

527
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: able to work through that because I was able to

528
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: connect how my past was functioning in my present, and

529
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: then I was able to take power back and say,

530
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: this is how I want to handle this in the future.

531
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: And so I think schema work can also be very

532
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: helpful when we're looking at those deep seated beliefs.

533
00:29:53,760 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the Break. Have you heard?

534
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order

535
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536
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Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,

537
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to

538
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 1: take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have

539
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,520
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540
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,320
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541
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. You know, doctor Jackson,

542
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: you said something earlier that I want to go back

543
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: to around realizing that you were showing up as a

544
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: fixer in your sessions, right And I think a lot

545
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: of black women probably can recognize that, right, Like, because

546
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways we are socialized to be

547
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: that in our circles and our families and our communities.

548
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: So what kind of work did you do to try

549
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: to not overstep that boundary with clients?

550
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: Like?

551
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: What does that look like to kind of pull yourself

552
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: out of that fixer role?

553
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: The best feedback I got from a supervisor who was

554
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: also a black woman was to be curious instead of

555
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: trying to jump in there and fix the issue, be

556
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: curious about where your client is in this moment. Ask

557
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: lots of questions clinically appropriate questions, but ask lots of

558
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: questions about where they are, what they're feeling, how they're

559
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: experiencing that, what that came from, how that makes them feel,

560
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 2: in order to get a better understanding of where they

561
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: are in their journey towards developing insight, and then where

562
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: you can drop little nuggets provide a little insight. That's

563
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: when you chime in, but only after the client has

564
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: kind of come to a space where they're ready and

565
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: they can understand and they're able to digest that information.

566
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: So doctorpaway something else you said that I wanted to

567
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: go back to as well. You made a comment around

568
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: I feel some type of way, right, like being able

569
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: to kind of not distinguish like what was going on.

570
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: And I feel like, again, that is something the black

571
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: community uses, like you know, like I feel some type

572
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: of way about this. Do you feel like that kind

573
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: of language distracts us from actually understanding like what our

574
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: mind and body is processing.

575
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 3: I think it's all about kind of decoding the story,

576
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: like not letting it stop there, but just using that

577
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: as a basis for exploration. Because if I didn't know that, like, oh,

578
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 3: I feel some type of way, then I wouldn't know

579
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: to explore that to give myself time. But then yeah,

580
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: there are so many situations where somebody might recognize that

581
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: they feel some type of way, but then just go

582
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: on about their lives. And I think that that's where

583
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 3: you know, the research comes in that by the time

584
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: black people end up in therapy were worse off than

585
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: other people that come to therapy because we're not using

586
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: these observations that we're making as the jumping off point

587
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: for further examination. And of course it's understandable because all

588
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: these systems, even the mental health system for sure, psychology

589
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: is guilty of a lot of things that would make

590
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 3: it so black people would not feel comfortable. And yet

591
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: there are so many of us out here trying to

592
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 3: do this work, and a lot of good people of

593
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 3: different cultural backgrounds too, trying to do the work. And

594
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 3: so I feel like there is so much wisdom in

595
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: the ways that I've learned to articulate my world because

596
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: of being black. It's not because of being a psychologist.

597
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 3: If anything, being a psychologist has helped clarify how wise

598
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: my family was. But it's about just figuring out how

599
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: much of that and into which context I want to

600
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 3: take it. And you know, like doctor Jackson was saying,

601
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: when you come across like a pattern of thinking or

602
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 3: a pattern of behavior, just like looking at it and

603
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 3: figuring out what you want to do with it. But

604
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: you don't have to discard the wisdom of it just

605
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 3: because it doesn't come in some conventional form. I don't

606
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: want the people that I see to sound like, you know,

607
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: therapy pros like I don't want them to come out

608
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: with all of this jargoning language in ways to describe things,

609
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: even though like inevitably I have things, people have things,

610
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 3: But I want to help people feel like they can

611
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 3: add access their own wisdom, and that includes a lot

612
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: of the things that we've learned from our families and

613
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 3: from our culture.

614
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: So you both have referenced this kind of family thread,

615
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: which I think is really interesting, but I also think

616
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: is indicative of like the work we are doing in

617
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: the world right Like I think we have come through

618
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: these very formal training programs and are figuring out like

619
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: how to manipulate it and like present it in ways

620
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: that are actually a much better fit for the communities

621
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: that we want to serve. I wonder if you both

622
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: can share some of these like family lessons that you

623
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: realize like showed up in your formal education, even though

624
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: maybe we called it something different.

625
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: The power of positive thinking was very explicitly talked about

626
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: in my home, and so a lot of times. While

627
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 2: I do see that there are problems with cognitive behavioral therapy,

628
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: especially for our culture, I think that kind of provided

629
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 2: a springboard for me into not believing everything that I

630
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: think taking some time to evaluate some of these thoughts

631
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: to see how effective they are are how effective they

632
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: are for the situation, for this moment, for how I'm feeling.

633
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: It's going to extinguish the way I'm feeling, help me

634
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: cope with the way I'm feeling, or is it going

635
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: to perpetuate it? And so in my family, there was

636
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: a lot of redirection towards there's nothing you can't do,

637
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: only things you haven't learned yet, or opportunities to stretch

638
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: yourself and it's okay to fail. While there were some

639
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: high expectations that were set, there was also compassion and

640
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: grace and empathy and lessons taught when you did skin

641
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: your need and when you did fail, And the importance

642
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: of self acceptance was also there. I think as I

643
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 2: got older, there were more conversations that were had around

644
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: it's okay to be who you are, and it's okay

645
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: to embrace the differences and the uniqueness that you have

646
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,479
Speaker 2: that you add to the world, because that's a beautiful thing.

647
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: And so a lot of empowerment, a lot of affirmation,

648
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 2: a lot of positive thinking was part of my household experience.

649
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking about that too, And like the

650
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 3: last few years, really the last decade, when you have

651
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: like viral takes on songs or whatever and say you

652
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 3: want to change a nursery rhyme to something hip hop

653
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: or something gospelized, it will always have affirmation, Like it'll

654
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 3: always have some message about you know, growing as it

655
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 3: being what you can be, you know, And I'm like,

656
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 3: it's all Black culture. Another thing I often share is

657
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: there's a video by Northwest Tap Collective and it's a

658
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: tap dance to Hell you tom about by Genomo name.

659
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 3: It goes through the names of people that have been

660
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: lost to police violence. But this video that the Northwest

661
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: Tap Collective did is like all generations of like every shape,

662
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: every size of all these beautiful Black people just doing

663
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 3: this dance. There's kids, there's elders, there's men, there's women,

664
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: there's you know, all kinds of people, and they're doing

665
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: this tap dance to this really painful song. And so

666
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 3: much of that is what I take from my family

667
00:36:59,280 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 3: culture too.

668
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: You know.

669
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: My grandma before she passed, was the mourner and the family.

670
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 3: So whenever somebody died, she woulcome like wailing up and

671
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 3: down the aisles, you know, just such a full bodied

672
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 3: expression of grief that for background, I grew up and

673
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: still am a part of the Latter day Saying community.

674
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 3: So I'm Mormon, and so there probably are maybe your

675
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 3: family still have mourners in them, but like in my

676
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 3: religious culture, it is very much not a thing to

677
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: have people that openly express their grief, and in fact

678
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 3: it is already like in my religious context, usually be

679
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 3: like to package it and say that it's okay. And

680
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: so seeing those aspects of what my black culture brought

681
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 3: into my experience was really meaningful for me. When you know,

682
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: you look at the research on racial socialization that's come

683
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: out in the last few years, and we understand that

684
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: there's all these types of strategies that people can employ

685
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 3: to cope with a racially complicated world. And my family

686
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 3: was like check box in the list. You know, they

687
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 3: were preparing us for the possibility of bias. They were

688
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 3: instilling pride in our black heritage. But then they also

689
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 3: have a mix of these other things, like doctor Jackson

690
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: was talking about, you can be anything you want to be,

691
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: like those you would consider color blind messaging or sometimes

692
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 3: like things were not about race and they didn't make

693
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: them about that, but having just the weight of these

694
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: things being like can you feel pride in who you

695
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 3: are and can you be prepared for what comes next?

696
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: We now know from the research leads to better outcomes

697
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: for our children. And so with the way that research

698
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: is hopefully going and stays there and looking at the

699
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: strength of what comes from black communities, I think we're

700
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 3: only going to find more and more things that all

701
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 3: along we've been doing well and that we can make

702
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: sure get passed down through the generations. With other things

703
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 3: that you don't like in this context can be looked at,

704
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: like do we need to hide things from everybody? Do

705
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: we need to incorporate so much pain on our bodies

706
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 3: when we know that things are taken as toll is black,

707
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 3: don't crack really true? Or like are we just cracking

708
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 3: on the insides. So there's things to be examined that

709
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: I still think, like I said, there's so much wisdom

710
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: that comes from our families and from our culture.

711
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So you both also administrate your own private practices,

712
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: and so there was a lot of questions after our

713
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: previous episode around accepting insurance, being paneled with insurance. So

714
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: what would you want clinicians to know about like getting

715
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 1: paneled with insurance, Like what steps do they need to take?

716
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: What kinds of things do you wish you knew before

717
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: you started the process.

718
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: It takes a long time.

719
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: We rather a deep breadth.

720
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 2: It can take a long time, I think sometimes upwards

721
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: of one hundred and twenty days to be credentialed with

722
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: some insurance panels. The other thing to consider is you're

723
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: not going to know what your reimbursed rate or your

724
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: contracted rate is going to be until you actually go

725
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: through that entire process and receive the contract, and so

726
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: it can be kind of difficult if you don't already

727
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: have experience being paneled with another agency or another practice

728
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: with one of those particular insurance panels, it can be

729
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: really difficult to know and base your business plan on

730
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: how much income you think you might derive. Copays copes

731
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: are a wonderful thing because it makes healthcare accessible to

732
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: our clients. And that's one of the reasons that I

733
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: decided to go ahead and be paneled with insurance is

734
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 2: because I wanted to work with a specific group of people.

735
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 2: I wanted to work with black women, and I wanted

736
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 2: to be accessible to black women who needed help. And

737
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: that's no knock on anybody who decides to be private pay,

738
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: but at the time when I started my private practice,

739
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: I felt that was really important copays come in. The

740
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 2: reimbursement from the insurance company can take a little while longer.

741
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: They're supposed to provide those reimbursements to you in a

742
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: certain period of time, so they don't always get them there,

743
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: and you have to be your own advocate, keep really

744
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 2: great records and be willing to, in addition to doing

745
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 2: your clinical practice and your clinical notes, be willing to

746
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 2: get on the phone with these insurance companies and wait

747
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: for a while. It's inconvenient sometimes I will acknowledge that,

748
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: but I do think it's worthwhile from the standpoint of

749
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 2: providing accessible care, especially at a day and age where

750
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to get in with someone and the economy

751
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: is rough and people are spending on past six dollars

752
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 2: for eggs, now in toilet paper and all kinds of things.

753
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: So for me, where I could find ways to be

754
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: affordable and accessible, I opted to do that. The other

755
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: thing that I would want or would have wanted to

756
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: know ahead of paneling with insurance companies, make sure you

757
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: have your MPI numbers and your EI in numbers so

758
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: that you're not giving out your personal information of course,

759
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: and MPI numbers since you have to have. But that

760
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: EI in is so important because you don't want to

761
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 2: give yourself a security number out to these insurance companies

762
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: or for your clients to have access to when they're

763
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: trying to look up your information for your practice. That's

764
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: really important. And there is a difference between a solo

765
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: MPI number and a group MPI number that you'll need

766
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: to be mindful of as you're establishing your practice too.

767
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: If you wanted to expand.

768
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: Can you tell us where do we go to get

769
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 1: like an MPI number or an EI in. If somebody's

770
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: listening to this conversation, they're like, what what is this?

771
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: Do you have to pay for this? Where do you

772
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: go to get this?

773
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I cannot remember the name of the website,

774
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: but there is an NPI registry website where you go

775
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: online you put your information in. Make sure it is

776
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: the official MPI registry website. You can do these things

777
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: for free. You don't have to pay someone else to

778
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: do them for you. That is more convenient for some

779
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: people if they don't want to put that kind of

780
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: time in. But you can get that MPI number with

781
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: that registry and the EI in number is something you

782
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: have to obtain from the IRS.

783
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: Perfect. Yeah, we'll make sure to include the links to

784
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: all that in the show notes for people who want

785
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: to start that process. What about you, doctor Foy, Do

786
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: you accept insurance in your practice?

787
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: I do not, so I actually work in group practice,

788
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 3: and it's a little complicated because previously I did work

789
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: at our local impatient hospital and I am still a

790
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 3: PRN employee with them, so technically I am paneled on

791
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 3: insurance and they do it for me, which is nice.

792
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 3: But here I am not paneled on insurance and our

793
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 3: company does not take insurance, and that has been a

794
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 3: really difficult thing for me, coming from systems that which

795
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: is more editable in that way from the hospital, and

796
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 3: then I was in college counseling, so it was hard.

797
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: The reason why our group practice has decided not to

798
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 3: do this is because a lot of times the reimbursement

799
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 3: rates kind of what doctor Jackson was alluding to, are

800
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 3: not equitable to the work that we do. Basically, the

801
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: system is not for any of us. The rates are

802
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 3: set by, in essence, people who don't value the work

803
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: of mental health professionals, and so the rate tends to

804
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 3: be lower, especially for the work that I'm doing here

805
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: where it's mostly DBT therapy, which means I'm around the

806
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 3: clock for my patients and doing what I can to

807
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: keep them out of impatient hospitals. So in essence, we

808
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 3: are what would be considered an intensive outpatient placement, but

809
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 3: we're doing that from the ground, and so it's just

810
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 3: hard work that for some people would not pay off

811
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 3: if we accept an insurance. Is what I have been

812
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 3: told and what I can understand kind of from an

813
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 3: intellectual standpoint, and I think in Utah very few of

814
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 3: the black providers here take insurance, if any. And so

815
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: it's come up in the community where there's some people

816
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 3: that are really angry about this, and they're like, how

817
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 3: can you say that you're for the people when you're

818
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: not working to make yourself as s So, first of all,

819
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: graces is nice if you can recognize it. Again, the

820
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: system doesn't work for any of us, and so we're

821
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 3: all just trying to do the best that we can.

822
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: It's not about money for me, but more about balance

823
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 3: in my way of life. So in order to give

824
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 3: clients the care that they deserve, it's nice to work

825
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 3: out a place that pays me enough that I can

826
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 3: protect my time so that I can go to continuing

827
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: education things without having to reschedule or cancel on clients,

828
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 3: and those type of things that I have time to

829
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: receive supervision during my work day. And so I've come

830
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 3: to realize that those things are also ways that I

831
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 3: can give back to the community as long as I'm

832
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 3: explaining that to people. But the other way that I

833
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: can give back to the community is by advancing my

834
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 3: or enhancing my ability to give scholarships to people. So

835
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 3: as soon as I got here and realized that we

836
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 3: weren't gonna do insurance, I'm like, Okay, well, I can

837
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 3: do this work on the side, Like I can go

838
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 3: do outreach events and people can pay me to do stuff.

839
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: Can I give you that money? Well, no, that's a lead.

840
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 3: But then we figured out how we can offer ce

841
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 3: services continuing education to other therapists. That then goes into

842
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: the pro bono fund that we have at the center.

843
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 3: And our pro bono pot is not necessarily meaning that

844
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 3: people get free therapy, and it's also not totally income based.

845
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 3: It's just if you cannot afford to pay what you

846
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: want to see a licensed clinician that money is there.

847
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 3: And so that's something that I've worked to develop at

848
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: the practice that I'm at to kind of counter the

849
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: effects of the system not really working for any of us.

850
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: And so I would say, if you're thinking about setting

851
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: up your own practice, just know that there are options

852
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 3: that you can use. I feel like in psychology they

853
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 3: teach us to have kind of multiple streams of income anyway,

854
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: not for income, but just because we're so busy, right,

855
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 3: we do so many things like assessment and whatever. But

856
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 3: then when we go into practice, you only often do

857
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 3: one of those things, and so you're like, oh my gosh,

858
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 3: where did all the things go? And so then you

859
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 3: end up with these strings of income and revenue. So

860
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 3: there's ways to be creative. Some of my friends also,

861
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 3: you know, they get on third party providers that provide

862
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 3: employee assistance benefits to companies, and so the reimbursement rates

863
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: tend to be fair. But then you're not dealing with

864
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: insurance still. And I think from what I've said and

865
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 3: what doctor Jackson said, I hope that it's clear that

866
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: like every decision that you make is complicated, it's just

867
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: a different set of complications and It's about figuring out

868
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 3: what you're willing to deal with to follow that value.

869
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: So more from our conversation after the Break. Have you heard?

870
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 1: My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order

871
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab your copy

872
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: to learn more about what role you play in your

873
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: sister circles, why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and

874
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: steps to take when it's time to end a friendship.

875
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: We'll have lots to talk about this summer, and you

876
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: don't want to miss it. Pre Order your copy of

877
00:47:52,880 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: Sisterhood Heels right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. It's

878
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: a running refrain when I talk with other therapists about this,

879
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: like there's so much we don't learn in grad school

880
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: about like actually either operating a practice or even being

881
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: in private practice. I know there's probably so many things,

882
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: but what is one thing that you feel like you

883
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: did not learn in grad school about either being in

884
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: a private practice or owning your private practice that you

885
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: would love to share with other people that you've been

886
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: able to kind of figure out on your.

887
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: Own, establishing a business plan. And I can't even say

888
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: that I figured that out on my own I'm blessed

889
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: to be married to a man who has an MBA,

890
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 2: so I've harpased that knowledge from him, and he's also

891
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: in finance. But there's so much about stepping into the

892
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: space of running your own practice that you have to

893
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: be knowledgeable about business plan and marketing strategies and marketing

894
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: analysis and wide analysis so that you can recognize what

895
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: it is that you want to do, how it aligns

896
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 2: with your values, but also how it makes business sense. Right,

897
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 2: so hear doctor apple White saying that just didn't make

898
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 2: good businesses and the system's not working for all parties.

899
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with her on that, And so having

900
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: a solid business plan, understanding your business model, identifying how

901
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: you can work into your business plan these alternative streams

902
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 2: of income so you're not grasping at straws. I think

903
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: it's so important, and it's not something that a lot

904
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: of academic programs are offering. So once clinicians get out

905
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: into the space of establishing their own practices, a lot

906
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: of times we're like clueless and don't even know where

907
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: to start. And then once we get a little bit

908
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: of taste of that information is very overwhelming in terms

909
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: of all the things that need to be accomplished and

910
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: the boxes that need to be checked. So I would

911
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: say establishing a solid business plan is necessary to know.

912
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 3: I hope that people coming through grad school now the

913
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 3: training is different, but I feel like the importance of

914
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 3: technology was under emphasized in school, and of course in

915
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: this pandemic and post pandemic world, it's become more important

916
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: than ever to be flat well to the needs of

917
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 3: clients and use technology. The older I get, and you know,

918
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 3: I'm thirty four, but I try to see teen clients

919
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 3: and I don't know what's going on with them, because

920
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 3: like technology has just advanced, and you know, I tell

921
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 3: people I had kids in graduate school, so my knowledge

922
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 3: of pop culture is kind of limited and perhaps dead.

923
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 3: It's limited to like the time my first kid was born,

924
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 3: Like all of my music knowledge is mainly from before

925
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, Like it's just dead. But then when you're

926
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 3: working with clients, like there is a need to stay

927
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 3: relevant and stay connected to what people are talking about.

928
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 3: Like it's come up that TikTok has advanced or I

929
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 3: don't know if you call it advanced, it certainly has

930
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 3: put out there a lot of talk about mental health.

931
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 3: Some of it is accurate, some of it is effective,

932
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 3: some of it is not. You got kids run around

933
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 3: thinking they have DD and they're like, what D ideas

934
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 3: only in like I don't zero point five percent of

935
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 3: the population or something like what's the prevalence of that?

936
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: Or you know, people say ADHD is this? ADHD is that.

937
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, maybe you've got some other things going on,

938
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 3: like maybe you needed an evaluation. But as long as

939
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: we're kind of constrained to offices and not regularly engaging

940
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 3: with technology, then we won't be prepared. Then the next

941
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 3: pandemic or that kind of event will come around and

942
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: you will know what to do. Like doctor Jackson was

943
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 3: doing telehealth before telehealth was cool in essence. Before that,

944
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 3: you know, all kinds of shape was like, oh yeah,

945
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 3: telehealth didn't work as well, even though the evidence was

946
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 3: there that it did, or like, oh, you're gonna be

947
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 3: disconnected from this, that, and the other if you go telehealth,

948
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 3: and then we all had to do it, so some

949
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 3: of us were able to like continue to grow and develop,

950
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: but being connected to technology, and sometimes I think we

951
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 3: can pull ourselves into thinking we only have to be

952
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 3: connected to the work. But the work is technology. We'll

953
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: get left behind if we're not keeping up.

954
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: These are both such great points. I feel like we

955
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: could spend a lot more time on both of the

956
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: things that y'all have said, because I think that there

957
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: is a lot there. But I do want to wrap

958
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: up with one final question for you both, So what

959
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: kinds of professional organizations have you either participated in or

960
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: been a part of that have been the most helpful

961
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: to your evolution as a therapist?

962
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 3: So I joined the local Psychological Association when I moved

963
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 3: to Utah. That was the suggestion from a colleague when

964
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: I moved from Massachusetts to here, because I'm like, what

965
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 3: is Utah? What am I going to do? And they're like, well,

966
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 3: you join these state psychological associations to understand what are

967
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 3: the issues of people that are working in your community,

968
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 3: and so that that's a good way to not only network,

969
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 3: but just understand what you're getting into by seeing the

970
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 3: types of events, the types of issues that people are

971
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 3: trying to address. And so I've joined upa I've remain

972
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 3: a member of American Psychological Association, though I think in

973
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 3: the pandemic I tend to be less active as I

974
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 3: was or even since moving to Utah, because when I

975
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 3: was East Coast it was easy with APA being in DC.

976
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 3: I did attend Association a Black Psychologists once when I

977
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 3: was here, and association with black psychologists is interesting. Some

978
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 3: of them are far along their path of decolonizing themselves

979
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 3: and I am not quite that far along, and so

980
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 3: it was almost like a baptism by fire situation. But

981
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 3: they have done so much important work historically and blazing

982
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 3: the path for black psychologists to exist that I think

983
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 3: that every black psychologist or person interested in working with

984
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: black people to take a look at the work that

985
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 3: ABSI has done. And then I also have tangential connections

986
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 3: to the Society for Research and Child Development, which also

987
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 3: has done a lot of great work to grow out

988
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 3: black psychologists. They have a strong history there, and so

989
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 3: those were men.

990
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: I would echo associations and APA. I think those are

991
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: beneficial professional organizations. But where I've really found a lot

992
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: of useful information is connecting with other professionals to look

993
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 2: like me, and so I found a lot of the

994
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 2: online clinician support groups like Black Girl Clinician Collective is

995
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 2: one that I'm a part of, Clinicians of Colors, and another

996
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: one that I'm a part of. These are useful organizations

997
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: that I found have helped to provide opportunities for consultation,

998
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: provide opportunities for just connecting with your colleagues and building

999
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 2: a sense of community, opportunities for CEU trainings. I also

1000
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: have been part of business boot camps. So while the

1001
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: professional organizations I think are really beneficial for me where

1002
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 2: I am at this point, I found that creating community

1003
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: and being able to connect with other people who see

1004
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: the field of psychology and the work that we're doing

1005
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: from a similar lens has been really useful to me

1006
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: and I've been able to find that more online than

1007
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: I was in the larger organization.

1008
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: Great points. Thank you both for sharing that. So we

1009
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: do have to wrap up, even though there's so much

1010
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: more I know we can talk about, doctor Jackson. Can

1011
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: you let us know where people can find you online?

1012
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: So your website as well as any social media channels

1013
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:17,280
Speaker 1: you'd like to share.

1014
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you can find our website at www dot Epiphany

1015
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 2: Psychotherapy dot com. I know us well and you can

1016
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at doctor d period Jackson.

1017
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 3: So you can find my information on our group atice website,

1018
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 3: which is UCBT dot com stands for Utah Center for

1019
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 3: Evidence Based Treatment. I'm also online when I can figure

1020
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 3: out how to do it on Instagram and Twitter as

1021
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 3: appleside d so Apple PsyD perfect.

1022
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in the

1023
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 1: show notes. Well, thank you both for soon missing time

1024
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: with me today. I really appreciate it.

1025
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for inviting us a pass.

1026
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: Thank you absolutely. I'm so glad doctor Apple White and

1027
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: doctor Jackson were able to share their expertise with us

1028
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about them and their work,

1029
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

1030
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: slash Session three oh six and keep your eyes peeled

1031
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: for part three of this fantastic conversation. Also, don't forget

1032
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: to text two of your girls and tell them to

1033
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 1: check out the episode right now. If you're looking for

1034
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory

1035
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. If you

1036
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: want to continue digging into this topic or just be

1037
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: in community with other sisters, come on over and join

1038
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: us in the sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of

1039
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: the internet design just for black women. You can join

1040
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: us at Community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. This

1041
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Elis Ellis and

1042
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

1043
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

1044
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

1045
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: What have you heard? My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is

1046
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: available for pre order right now at sisterhood Heels dot com.

1047
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: Grab your copy to learn more about what role you

1048
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: play in your sister circles, why difficult conversations can make

1049
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: relationships closer, and steps to take when it's time to

1050
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 1: end a friendship. We'll have lots to talk about this summer,

1051
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: and you don't want to miss it. Pre Order your

1052
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: copy of Sisterhood Heels right now at sisterhood Heels dot

1053
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: com