WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 177 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.080 Cool Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.960 Welcome to It could happen here, It is continuing to 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:35.159 happen stonks, but we will discuss the stonks probably late 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.680 later this week. This episode's going to be much more 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.040 fun because I am I am pleased to have returning 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.320 to the show Elle Yeerman, writer, comedian, end creator and 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.760 host of Going Down with Elle Yeerman, a trends political 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.360 comedy news show. As well as joining us here is 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:56.080 teen Vogue's news and politics editor Lex mcminnimon. Welcome both 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.640 of you. Hi, Hi, Thanks, So we're going to be 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.560 talking about the recent Teen Vogue special issue cover story 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.240 on Vivian Wilson, the estranged daughter of Elon musk Ella. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:13.200 You put together a fantastic piece last month, and this 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.320 is what we're gonna discuss how this article came together. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.119 That viral photo shoot in Japan, which is fantastic. All 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.559 the styling in that shoot was lovely. But I think this, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:29.319 this particular piece was really relevant for like trans people, 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.559 and also relevant because of the way like global politics 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.200 has been shaken up by a few specific people, and 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.679 focusing in on Vivian I think was really special. So 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.640 I guess I would first like to hear about, like, yeah, 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.680 like the broad strokes of how this first came together. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:48.840 From our perspective. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.760 You know, I don't know that like everyone is aware 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:53.960 of this, and certainly I don't know that all of 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.760 my friends in our various trans subcultures know this. But 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.480 at Team Vague, we've been covering like transpolitics and trans 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.880 writes for a long time, like far before I got here, 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:05.920 But I've been here for almost four years, and it's 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:07.720 been a pretty big part of my beat, in part 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.520 because of it being like a very unavoidable thing within 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.600 following like US state legislatures and then obviously like at 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.840 the federal level, which has only intensified more and more 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.520 in the last year. And so that's like one aspect 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.239 of it. But at the same time, we love young 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.079 people that shit post, and so Vivian had been on 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.720 our radar for a while totally. I also think people 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.000 are maybe more aware of this whole, like Comrade teen 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.000 Vogue vibe of like, we're really interested in talking to 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.320 people that have a clear political leaning, that have like 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.480 a sense of how they see themselves in the world 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.880 in a political context, and Vivian sort of came right 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.640 out the gate as someone who was really eager to 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.680 share her thoughts on these things. So from last summer, 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.200 like within like a month of when Vivian was kind 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.519 of introduced to the world through her father talking about 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.639 her on Jordan Peterson's podcast, we were trying to get 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.359 in touch with her and with something I was talking 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.560 a lot about within the office, and we didn't really 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.280 know what to do because she was just kind of 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.960 she just kind of emerged from from nowhere onto the Internet. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.600 And so I had been talking about it a lot, 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.520 including with Ella because we talk a lot. And so 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.799 Ella find eventually revealed like, oh that's Umphy, I am. 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:20.680 Utuls with Indian, not Umfi. 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.960 You you did kind of I mean, are you. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:28.440 Threads Umfi's what what are you? Instagram Instagram nice. 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:29.600 I would never use threads. 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.519 My god, so over to you. 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:33.840 That's my that's my teen Vogue intro. But Ella, if 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:35.200 you want to yeah, no. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.520 Because yeah, I am interested in contacting Vivian because she 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.520 was certainly getting like an unhinged number of media requests 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:43.440 starting last summer. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.080 Yeah, that's that's true, right, So she did that one 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.640 NBC interview after after Elon went on, Peterson and I 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.880 do not work at teen Vogue, but Lex and I 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.920 know each other because you're contractually obligated to know everyone 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.240 else who's part of the you know, deep State illuminati 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.040 doing trans Politics online club. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:02.320 Yeah. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.440 I was just gonna say trans people Club then deep State. 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:10.400 Yeah, the council exactly. We're all established members, right, we 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.600 swear allegiance once a year. There's a whole ritual. Don't 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:14.200 worry about it. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.400 So when I got in touch with Vivian last fall, 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.760 which I got in touch with her initially to see 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.800 if she would come on Going Down, and I reached 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:24.560 out to her and I said, do you want to 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.800 come on my live comedy show? And she said no, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.320 I'm actually not sure live comedy is for me. I'm 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.400 a little worried. I'm not funny enough. And since then 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.839 she has changed her mind. She's told me repeatedly that 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.960 she regrets saying that to me, that she has decided 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.640 she actually is funnier than everyone else alive, all of 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:47.280 the things that a prolific twenty year old poster might say. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:48.039 Absolutely. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.440 But so I got in touch with her and then 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.479 she said no, and I was like, okay, well, at 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.680 least I have this mutual now. And then a few 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.240 months later I mentioned Alex that I gotten in touch 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.040 with her, and Lex said, okay, so she doesn't want 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.599 to do a live comedy show that nobody that nobody knows. 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.240 About does not want to do a live comedy show. 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.800 What if instead we did a really fancy photo shoot 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.679 and put her in teen Vogue, a legacy journalism magazine. 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.400 And I said, honestly, I think that's a better sales pitch, 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:18.600 and it was. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.159 Yeah, no, it is. It is really compelling. I mean 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.960 that the photo shoot pulls a whole bunch of people in. 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.960 It's certainly if I was in Vivian's position, that would 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.800 be interesting to me. And it does help spread around, 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.239 like like so much of the piece is talking about, 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.480 like the struggles of living as a young trans person 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.800 in America, and the fact that you can use a 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.000 teen Vogue photo shoot to like spread writing about that 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.799 around the internet is like super super useful. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:46.520 Yeah, I mean I just want to like second what 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.080 lexis to say, I think the work teen Vogue has 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:52.200 been doing is really important. Like so many I mean Garrison, 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.760 you know, like so much trans media is like independently 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.039 distributed and like dy and I love us for that, 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.200 but it is always really heartening to see like mainstream 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.279 media institutions uplift trans voices the way teen Vogue has 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:06.680 been doing. 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.600 And it's also like Conde Nast as an institution, which 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.240 is like teen Vogue's parent company is only one of 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.640 multiple media conglomerates that will very proudly like use trans 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.160 people in a representative way, like and like sell magazine 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.040 covers with trans people on it. Like you could think 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:23.880 of Hunter Shaffer, for example, she'd been on the cover 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.400 of several vogues, but at the same time, Hunter Shaffer 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:30.479 also received a misgendering passport after the Trump admins. So like, 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.880 I think that if legacy media is unwilling to connect 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.880 the dots between like profiting off of like the aesthetics 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.800 of trans people, but not actually like talking about the 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.120 political underpinnings of like why trans people are even able 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.320 to be visible at this time and like what the 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.320 you know trapdoors Termaligne calls it of trans visibility means 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:49.760 then it's like why even do this work in the 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.080 first place. So Vivian was like a really great opportunity 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.360 for us to like build on, Like we've done several photoshoots, 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.520 particularly with trans women because I trans girls at teen Vogue, 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.719 because we like feel very strong. Only a Allen makes 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.120 this point in the piece that like the way that 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.480 transfem people are like objectified and commodified, and also like 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.040 the target of such extreme bittrial is something it feels 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.160 really important to take a stand against. It just felt 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.080 like doing this with Vivian, who's so high profile but 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.440 also hadn't had the opportunity yet to take control of 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.000 her own narrative in the public eye, and with this 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.200 being her second ever interview for a sever photo shoot, 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.360 like it just felt like a really big opportunity that was. 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.800 Worth using as a big swing, you know. 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.920 No, like she is at like this center of this 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.040 like matrix of trans commodification in so many ways like 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.560 like this this special issue was the first time Vivian 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.760 was really like framed as the subject matter of like 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.800 any piece and like framed as her own person. For 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.760 the entirety of her adult life, she's been used as 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.640 this rhetorical object, like both by her dad, but as 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.440 well as like by people on the left who's like 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.040 objectified Vivian to use her as a bludgeon against her father. 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.720 And Yeah, like people are very willing to like commodify 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:03.640 or or use trans people in certain ways, but to 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.280 have like trans people writing about other trans people in 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.840 a way that frames them as a subject matter is 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:10.640 so important. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:11.840 Yeah, I mean, I think Vivian. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.320 One of the things that drew me to the story 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.760 in the first place is that Vivian's sort of case 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.960 is such an interesting microcosm of the transform experience as 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.840 a whole. Yeah, She's incredibly talked about for something that 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.440 is not her fault and not under her control at all, 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.440 in the same way that right now on the national stage, 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.240 like transfemininity and transit is at large, but specifically transfemininity 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:38.160 is the like problem to be spoken about, especially conservatives, 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.160 like Butler calls it a phantasm like gender nonsense. 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:43.560 I read that book. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:46.559 You have my copy. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.679 I think I'm almost certain I do that. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:50.480 That makes sense. 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.400 Yeah, that makes almost certainly. That's the trouble with gender, right, 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.160 gender trouble. Yeah, no, no, that's the original book. 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.480 It's she was afraid of gender. Thank you very much. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.120 I have your book, but I haven't looked at it 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.040 in a long time except for to remember the word phantasm. 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.280 And so, yeah, I totally agree with what Lex said 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.079 of it's really exciting to sort of like take her 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.080 out of being used as a prop and give her 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.360 own voice back. I think one of the most exciting 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.200 moments in the piece to me is the moment where 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.920 I ask her about sort of the allegations that Elan 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.520 like shifted right word because of her, and she pushes 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.640 back against sort of that narrative very strongly. And I 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:31.760 think that is the way we've seen her being used 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.000 both on the left and the right as sort of 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.840 a this is why he's doing this. It's clearly the 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.040 fact that he has this twenty year old trans girl, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.280 and she's like, actually, that's a crazy thing to say 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.040 about it about a twenty year old well. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.280 And especially to counter the narrative of her life. That's 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.040 been driven by Walter Isaacson's twenty twenty three biography, which 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.960 is like so hostile and to have like a prominent, 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.679 like a prominent biography like that, like trying to make 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.400 a narrative out of out of your existence with something 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.760 you have like no like input in no control, and 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.160 it's like so demeaning. It's also like a very like 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.640 you know, trans misogyny moment as well, Like, yeah, it 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:14.000 is interesting how how much of like Vivian is so relatable, 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.240 Like like a lot of trans people have, shall I say, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.440 challenging relationships with their parents, maybe not to this extreme, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.400 but but sometimes frankly right, like there's a lot of 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.200 people are forced to cut off contact with their family. 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:28.720 Yeah. 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.520 No, I've just been thinking a lot about this because 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.640 you know, Trump released yet another executive order. I think 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.160 that this one was today basically trying to codify allowing 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.920 trans youth to access gender affirming care as abuse quote unquote, 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.240 which is like something that the Republican Party has been 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:44.920 flagging for months that they were going to do at 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.440 the federal level as well. It has already shown up 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.760 in the rhetoric around transit healthcare, which obviously is going 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:55.080 to be used as justification for targeting trans adults access 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.560 to health care and something that you know, I'm the 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.760 only transperson on my team. Something that kept coming up 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.720 in Vivian's story was that it was almost like anyone 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.360 could relate to this, because anyone can relate to having 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.480 like a shitty parent, an abusive parent, like a bad dad, whatever. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.319 And so I think there's an extent to which this 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.840 story has like a lot of value in like forcing 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.160 CIS people to really be confronted with the fact that 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.400 like how trans youth are treated like objectively is like abusive. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.720 And it's not the access to healthcare that is the abuse. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.920 It's like the way that they're dismissed. It's the way 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:27.760 they're belittled, It's the way they can't even be like 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.959 trusting their own parents to be looking out for them, 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.840 and to the extent that they have to push themselves 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.160 out into the world to clarify that point. So like 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:36.840 that's one aspect of it. I totally agree with what 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:38.559 you were both saying that it is like a microcosm 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.840 of the trans experience. But I do think there's like 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.600 this other valance for like allowing her to like control 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.120 how this is being perceived or received sort of by 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.840 CIS media and like sis like the CIS political spirit, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.320 which is like how trans people are just getting shoved 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:55.920 into that over and over and over again with very 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.040 little context. Felt like a really valuable thing to be 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.880 able to do give and how like, frankly, so much 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:03.800 of my coverage right now just feels like it's like 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:05.800 trying to raise attention to the fact that, like, these 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.439 are kids, these are young people, Like everyone should be 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.240 able to relate to a young person saying like I 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.360 have a bad parent and that sucks and is a 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.320 formative thing for me, Like that is something that like 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:17.600 other children are afforded the ability to do, and like 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.240 we just don't let trans kids like have that as 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.000 something that's part of their truth when it's such a 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:38.160 key part of like growing up trans in a hostile household. 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.200 And something like Vivian talked about at length, is like, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.040 as someone who did transition as a minor, there's all 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.680 this like villainization around, whether that's whether that's puberty suppressing hormones, 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.520 whether that's having HRT, and how like the landscape that 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.319 like me, like her Ella and like a lot of 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.520 people that our age like came out of is not 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.120 going to exist for the next generation of like trans kids, 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.560 or at least it's going to be very different, and 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.360 we need to do everything we can to stop it 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.280 from being as bad as what it looks like it's 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.000 going to be. And Vivian like talked about this at 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.440 length of the piece, with the restriction of puberty blockers, 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.240 all this stuff in schools and this complete demonization of 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.920 not just the healthcare but also like the people they 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.439 like trans kids as this own demon of America that's 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.040 that's like invading or is like threatening. So I think 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.800 it is really cool a Vivian do talk about that 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.040 at length in this special teen Vogue Cool photo Shoot article. 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.520 I will say, I think, yeah, I think it's so 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.120 important that that's talked about, and I'm glad she did. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.600 I'm also really glad as someone who covers like trans 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.200 politics and news all the time, it was such a 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:48.920 breath of fresh air to be able to frame this 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.040 piece as like a look into what like the joy 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.200 of transition looks like and looking at like yea, how 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.800 transition has brought her closer to the life she wants 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.400 to be living. And I'm not that old, but like 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.240 talking to someone who's a few years younger than me 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.720 and who transitioned at an earlier stage in life gave 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.040 me like such a beautiful vision of what the future 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:11.240 could look like if we if we fix some of 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:15.080 the bullshit that's going on these days. All Right, I'm 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.800 being clowned on in the chat. I'm not that much 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:19.920 older than Vivian, is what I meant. And now I'm 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.920 peaking my microphone and the podcast is going to sound terrible. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.360 Look what you said. I'm not that much older than Vivian, 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.160 but she started transitioning at a much younger stage of 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.160 life than me, and to see like what that has 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.040 done for her, and like the way, I don't know, 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:36.720 it was just really beautiful to talk to like a 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.200 twenty year old girl and be like, oh, you're like 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.000 trans but it's like it's like not actually that big 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:43.520 of a deal, and it. 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.120 Like it also like confirms a thing that like, I mean, 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.080 I made a joke about this earlier with like we 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.080 love young people that ship post, but like I think 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.920 so much of liberal and right wing talking points about 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.040 like young people in general like sees them as so 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:59.560 humorless like they are like cancel culture, like are nonsense, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.640 whereas Vivian is so funny, Like we actually struggled to 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:04.920 cut jokes out of the piece, like Ellen and Ellen 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:06.840 could tell you we went back and forth for hours 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.280 about so many jokes that did not and just one 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.920 liner is like she's so quickie and so like so funny. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.440 She's extremely funny. 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.920 A very dense style of humor, as in like there's 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:17.800 a lot of there's a lot packed in like almost 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:18.640 every other sentence. 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.160 Alex and I are both some of the fastest talking 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.320 people I know, and I would put Vivian in that 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.400 same group of people who can keep up with us 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:26.680 or out talk me. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:27.440 Uh huh. 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.520 That comes across in the writing too, like the way 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.040 that the interview is transcribed, you can you can read 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:35.600 that pace into the piece. 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:36.760 She's awesome. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.160 So much of our editing was just like sort of 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.640 taking out yeah, like little jokes or like she's twenty 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.320 so she is swearing all the time, or dude. 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:50.040 The amount of cursing I much love. But also that 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.800 was the editing process for this was much less like 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.119 stress and we're just like how many. 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.760 F bombs are we keeping today? Hearthand emojis. 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.000 The way Edits goes is you send in a piece 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:01.840 and the editors give you like change some stuff, and 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:03.000 then I get to look at a new draft and 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.960 I get be like, hey, uh, why do you change that? 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:07.400 And then we go back and forth over and over 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.120 again until eventually it's not up to me anymore. But 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:11.760 at one point I did have to I did have 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.320 to say, actually, femboy is one word correct. It's different 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.320 from feme space boy and space something specific. 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.480 And I felt really like I was bringing. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.800 I'd like to clarify I was not involved in the 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:25.600 grammatical edit of that. 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:27.720 There were multiple editors who was hands. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.120 Ut as a subject matter expert. 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:30.520 What can I say? 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.520 And then excuse me? Kande nasked, theemboy means something. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:35.440 No. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:37.760 I am so happy that you have someone like Vivian 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.680 who's able to appreciate drag way more than what I'm 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.200 ever like able to even though I can like appreciate 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.280 it like on like a conceptual level. Having this like 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.920 complete sincere like engrossment in it is so is so 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.560 thrilling because a significant portion of this piece is talking 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.440 about how much Vivian loves trag. 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.600 Oh my God and he. 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.200 Much Ellen knows nothing about drag also, so that was 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.800 like a really good combo for all of us. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:07.440 That was I. I. Yeah. 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.080 I sat down with her and we started talking very 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.560 very quickly. She brought up RuPaul's drag Race, and I 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.840 would just like she kept calling it RPDR, which I'm pretty. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.960 Sure I've I've told you even get into this my. 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.760 Sources, Garrison, is that something you call drag race? Have 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.480 you heard RPDR? Said out loud, I've never heard this. 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.360 No, Okay, okay, whatever. What I'm want. 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.560 What I'm here to say is as someone who actually 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.040 watches drag Race, Ella, that is actually not that uncommon 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:32.480 to refer to it that way. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:33.520 But you know, we had. 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.920 Two different roles as the two trans people whose brains 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.760 were wiped by the story. Ella's job was to actually 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.200 write the Peace of Mind was to interface with Viviana. 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:44.160 About drag Race. 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.800 So clearly it all came together the way it was 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:47.320 supposed to do. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:48.840 I get at the very end of our first call, 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:50.919 I said, you, is there anything else you want to say? 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:53.639 And she talked to me for another fifteen minutes about 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.359 about drag Race, specifically classic rules. 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.000 Classic rules yeah. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.479 Like I know, I'm I like sort of about your 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.879 dad or about like any of the important things. We 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.439 talked about this as you're like, no, so in season 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.640 fifteen of Drag Race that rules. 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.399 That's so cool, she's the best. 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.560 But no, I it's it's so funny that you you 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.080 talk about how like there's this there's this caricature of 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.520 like humorless trans people, which is very funny because like 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.760 all of like the biggest shit posters online right now 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:30.960 are mostly trans women. The trans comedy scene is huge, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.560 and like this is something that Ivian talks about, like 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.360 spending the COVID lockdown and like online queer communities and 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.600 how how like the the like drama and like conflict 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.840 in those spaces trains you for how to be like 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.399 relief like funny and snappy. How fighting with with like 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.520 like fellow queer teenagers like like prepared you for for that, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.439 which has like certainly been like my experience. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.280 I mean there's a reason you can sort of tell, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.439 and I'm sure this applies to beyond trans people, but 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.440 you can sort of how which social media you grew 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.080 up on, like were if you were a totally tumbler 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.199 teen or a Reddit teen or a four chanteen you 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.640 can tell because of your style of fighting and making 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.040 jokes changes because it's it's it's such a deeply. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:13.480 Formative part of it. 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.560 And I I don't know what online forums the right 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.960 were on growing up, but they were the wrong ones. 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.160 Well a lot of four chan as well. 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.800 Sure, just the not funny parts not funny. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:28.000 Yeah. 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.160 No, I'm still trying to untrain my like defensive way 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.439 of writing that I learned on Twitter, because it's a 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:34.480 horrible style. 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.680 Where right you have to like have like twelve prefaces exactly. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.840 your article one. I am not a racist. 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.000 Waffle pancaking the entire time, which is it's weird because 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:47.600 like it's like Twitter does have its own style of 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.480 humor which I also like also like picked up on, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.880 but it also has that defensive style of writing which 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.639 which needs to get untrained. But it is, you know, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.360 a work, a work in progress. 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.040 I think it's downstream of Tumblr. I I read to 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.159 remain wrong on my stance that the Tumblr porn band 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:03.000 ruined the Internet. 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:16.560 No, absolutely absolutely, I guess I'd like to talk a 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:18.240 little bit more about like the structure of the piece 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:22.880 and how it succeeded so much in putting Vivian as 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.080 a subject right because the first half is written in 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.960 more of like a traditional like article format to give 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.560 context and frame Vivian as like a person. But then 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.120 halfway through it switches to like a back and forth interview, 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.600 which allows Vivian to just speak for herself. And I 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.040 think having both of those and not just one or 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.120 the other strengthens the piece entirely, and strengthens like being 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.600 able to see Vivian as a complete person because like, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.439 as I'm as, I'm getting the context like for her 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:54.040 life and the political situation in the first half. Then 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.040 I get to see how much she reminds me of 0:20:56.080 --> 0:21:00.679 like regular twenty something trans girls, and you know, like 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.720 half of the friends I have. Though I do disagree 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.560 on team Peta. Pete's a bitch boy. It's team Gale 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:07.000 all the way. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:08.680 Thank you contrary. 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.320 All right, all right, all right, I've excited that we 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.439 we agree on this, But those those sorts of like 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.080 offhand comments and likes, there's other things that like give 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.959 you like a you know, a view into into this person. 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.480 It's so useful to have, like, you know, like at 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:27.840 least fIF fifty percent of the piece be this like 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:29.320 just straight interview. 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.080 We unsurprisingly talked a lot about how we were going 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:37.680 to structure this piece and partially landed on Q and 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.320 A format for like we knew this was going to 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.119 be a behemoth, like no matter how we tackled it, 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.639 given the subject matter, and then ultimately how long the 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.640 transcript was, and you know, just like it. There were 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.080 many aspects of this that like we were like, okay, 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:53.600 how do we how do we do this in a 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:55.320 way that's going to read well to people, because something 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.639 we also think about a lot is like accessibility, Like 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.040 young people famously hate reading. Now we but we wanted 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.480 this to actually be something that like a young person 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.199 could sit down, dash through, still get some like you know, 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.080 historical political context out of and still come away being 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.280 like haha, team PETA, team Gail or whatever the hell 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:12.960 right and so. 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.440 And maybe have like subway surfers on like another phone 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:16.040 at the same time. 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:20.080 Exactly, yes, exactly exactly, And then I would say the 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:23.560 I want ella to talk about the transcript and like 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:27.280 interview stuff, but like the intro I think is probably 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.760 where I spent the most of my time editing this piece, 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.800 and like adding stuff and a lot of adding stuff. 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.359 It ballooned like we wanted this to be lauch shorter 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:39.239 than it was, and then it just kept feeling like 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.520 there were more pieces to really tie it together. But 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:43.880 I would say, like the reason that was the case 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:46.680 is because it was a really hard line to walk 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:49.959 to acknowledge that, like people would be clicking on this 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:52.479 in part because of Elon, but that we wanted to 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.320 like trick them into coming for Elon but staying for 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:55.800 Vivie and. 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.280 Yeah, like it's it's not about Elon, nor like should 0:22:58.280 --> 0:22:58.560 it be. 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.199 Yeah, right, and so so like like Ellen and I 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.639 had a zoom with Vivian and what November was the 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:05.560 first one or was that? 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:05.880 I think? 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:09.560 So yeah, November December to just like so she could 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:11.879 kind of get our vibe and just kind of suss 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:13.840 out if she was willing to consider this at all. 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.000 And one of the earliest things she said was like, 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:17.760 I don't really want to talk about him. I don't 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:19.800 want this to be about him, And we were really 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:21.679 down for that, like we don't think that her story 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:24.560 is about him. Ultimately, it felt really important, and it 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.919 was also challenging to make sure that we felt like 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.280 people were coming away with it from this without like 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:34.480 a garbled interpretation of what the stakes were for her 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:36.560 to be coming forward like we wanted it to be, 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:39.600 especially right now while so much of mainstream media is 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.359 really fumbling their coverage of like politics at this moment, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:45.680 it felt really important to be like. 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:47.920 Super trans politics, especially. 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.240 Especially and then also just like all of it. So 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:52.720 like all of it and then especially trans politics. 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:54.120 We just really wanted the intro to be. 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:58.159 Like as strong and also like informative and also like 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.760 kind of funny and also like just all the things 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:02.880 because and I would say that probably took the most time. 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:05.359 Correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah, I mean I 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:10.080 think the intro started off as probably an eighth of 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:13.400 the piece, and yeah, now is closer to a half 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:13.840 of the piece. 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:15.880 And there were so many hands on it. I wrote like. 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:19.679 Sort of a very loose like skeleton of what that 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:20.840 intro ended up being. 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:23.879 And I would say the most like it wasn't that 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:25.080 many people adding text. 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:27.200 It was mostly means, it was mostly legs. 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:30.560 But part of that is because I mean everything like said, 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:34.080 but also that Musk is currently a high level government 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.440 official and is in the news all the time. I mean, 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.880 when we started writing, the intro said that Musk had 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:43.919 thirteen children, and then we had to update that twice. 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:45.200 New kid just dropped. 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:45.480 Yeah. 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:46.520 Over the edit. 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:50.320 Process, things wouldn't stop happening, and then also Vivian wouldn't 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.439 stop posting, which was a little bit frustrating. 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:54.199 At one point I. 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:57.840 Had to DM or I said, Hey, if you get 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:01.720 any more information, can you please just tell me and 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:06.440 not post it on threads And she said, oh, totally. 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:10.840 That girl as a poster post hard hard for sure, But. 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:12.840 Yeah, I mean, I think I really love the balance 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.280 the piece found it in the end. Early on, when 0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:17.320 we were talking about structure, I think I pushed for 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:21.400 more of a standard profile, mostly because you know, then 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:23.359 I get to show off my writing skills more and 0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:25.880 I liked to write. But after talking to Vivian, even 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:28.440 after our early pre interview, but certainly after the full 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:30.600 interview where I sat with her for a very long 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:33.520 time over zoom in a fourteen hour time difference, I 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:35.480 immediate it was like, no, if I write this out, 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:39.800 it's going to be mostly dialogue anyway, because her voice 0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:41.760 she has, she's so voicy, and it's so fun to 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:43.480 keep it in that voice. 0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:45.600 She's a very very distinctive voice. 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:47.960 Yeah yeah, and so do you, Ella, and so like 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.439 it's like that's really the strength of the piece in 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.240 so many ways, is that like people come away with it. 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:55.159 It doesn't feel like you're in the background or like 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:57.399 hiding behind something when you're writing this piece, Like it 0:25:57.480 --> 0:25:59.720 very much feels like the success of it is because you. 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:00.600 Are a part of it. 0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:02.960 And The New York Times reported that this was Ella's 0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:06.000 first che lance article. So I just wanted to add that, 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:09.200 you know, Ella kinda did her did her big one 0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:10.879 with her first article. 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.199 Thanks all, this is now everything that big one. The 0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:16.480 next fifteen years will be underwhelming. 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:18.120 It's all downstream from here. 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:22.360 Woo, it's not true. Baron Trump, I'm coming for you. 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:25.960 You're gonna re enroll at NYU exactly. 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:27.560 They'll never see me coming. 0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:30.879 I am waiting for him to get fixed by like 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:34.440 a bisexual she They it's gotta happen, right, No, I 0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:34.879 don't think so. 0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:37.840 I don't know Obama was like into a bisexual she 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:41.080 they And he's still yeah, bombed the Middle East or whatever. 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:44.960 But no, like like mainstream coverage is just completely failure 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.080 and trans people right now. I got so mad at 0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:50.560 a Washington Post article yesterday that I that I skeedd 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:51.840 about it something I never do. 0:26:52.080 --> 0:26:54.399 Was it the sports one yes, role playing. 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:58.760 After President Donald Trump band transgender our girls from competing 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:02.600 in girls' sports, Virginia high schooler joins the boys team. 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.960 She wasn't going to let the president's executive order stop her. 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:10.119 Framed is like a feel good story, fucking infuriating. 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.159 And it's so like transparent like and I again, I 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:13.240 feel like I keep. 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:15.119 Bringing the system into the space. I'm really sorry. 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:18.720 One of my like CIS colleagues was like, this is disgusting. 0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:20.639 Why did they write this like a feel good story? 0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:22.560 And it's like, my thing is is if, like, if 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:24.920 anyone with some amount of criticals thinking skills can see 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:27.240 exactly through what you're doing, why even do it? Like 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:30.080 it's so transparent like the way that that story was written, 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:33.760 because it gets clicked. I mean, I guess we you 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.720 know what got clicks was Vivian So I actually don't 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:37.600 know about. 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:39.439 That, that's true and say that and say that I 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:40.000 did and I will. 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:42.520 Do you want to talk about the length of the transcript, 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:45.240 because I am curious how long Vivian talked for. 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:46.960 Am I am I allowed to say that? 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:50.880 Yeah, I think I'm legally Yeah, say, can we explain why? 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:53.760 Uh, when we're not recording, I can explain why. 0:27:53.960 --> 0:27:55.760 Okay, I think I got to say most of what 0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:57.320 I want to say. I mean, I think Vivian's just 0:27:57.359 --> 0:27:59.480 like a delightful person, and I'm really excited for her 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:02.439 that she gets her moment in the spotlight and that 0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:06.080 hopefully this like helps her build herself as a public 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:09.560 figure outside of and away from Elon Musk, And she 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:12.800 has all of these aspirations to perform and model, and 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:15.160 I hope she gets to do Her and a Winter 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:17.160 Drag one day soon. 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:19.520 I love that movie. 0:28:19.920 --> 0:28:22.120 It's a great movie. 0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:27.280 Hi Anna wind tour Lex, do you want to plug 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:29.960 your little outlet? Was this teen Vogue? 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:30.520 Oh? 0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:33.400 Yeah, I don't know if anyone's heard. Actually so frequently 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:35.680 people haven't heard of it, So it's actually fine. Yes, 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:37.480 you can find us at teen vague dot com. We 0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:41.160 have no paywall, we have a fact checking department. Most 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:43.480 of mainstream media is not doing it like us, if 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:44.920 you consider those two points. 0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:49.400 So yeah, labor politics, especially teen Vogue's been phenomenal the 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:50.640 past like eight years. 0:28:51.080 --> 0:28:52.320 Yep, so true. 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:55.320 If you love Kim Kelly, she is our labor columnist, 0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:56.120 so comes through. 0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:58.440 I also do some of our labor coverage, but like 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:01.000 definitely not to day than Kim does. Yeah, I'm on 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:04.200 the things. I'm on the socials. Yeah, that's it. That's 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:06.040 all I had, Little Ella. 0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:08.360 Where can people find you on the worldwide Web? 0:29:08.640 --> 0:29:12.240 I'm on on Instagram and actually everything app as Ella 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.200 Yurman or Ella dot Yerman on Instagram. 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:16.920 We're gonna get you on Blue Sky one of these days. Sky, 0:29:17.040 --> 0:29:19.160 we can fix the vibes. I'm on Blue Sky. I 0:29:19.200 --> 0:29:20.400 just forget about how to do it? 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:20.880 Can we? 0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:25.200 I suffered through twenty twelve tumbler once. I don't need 0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:25.880 to do it again. 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:28.120 That is so not the vibe. I wish it were. 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:29.800 But it's not on Blue Sky. 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:32.000 No, it's it's more twenty nineteen Twitter. 0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:34.040 Yeah, I agree. 0:29:34.760 --> 0:29:36.880 You can also find my show at Going Down TV 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:41.959 on Instagram, Going Down the Show on YouTube, Going Down 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:42.760 Show on Patreon. 0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:43.120 I don't know. 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.479 I make a transgender daily show. You guys know about it. 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:47.920 New studio looks great, it's so fun. We got to 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:49.320 get you on there. We got to get you to 0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:49.840 come hang out. 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:52.640 Okay, well I will. I will be in town shortly 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:54.200 so hell yeah. 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:54.560 Oh fun. 0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:56.560 I go to the taping so I can crash. 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.800 That'll be fun. You should do it? Hell yeah? 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:00.680 Are we did we do it? 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:01.040 Yeah? 0:30:01.040 --> 0:30:21.600 We're done. 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:26.120 Hello everybody. It could happen here or here. And this 0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:29.920 is Robert Evans. We're a show about things falling apart, 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:32.960 and boy howdy, they sure seem to be doing just that, 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:36.640 as they always are and have been four years. 0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:37.160 You know. 0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:39.480 In fact, anticipation of the end times I think is 0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.360 probably close to the number one hobby in the United 0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:45.240 States at this point. I suspect if you counted up 0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:48.440 the dollar value of all the collapse themed movies, books, 0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:52.560 prepping gear, monetize social media content, and of course religious 0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:55.600 sects in the country, the apocalypse would be one of 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:59.640 our big industries. Doomsday prepping alone was an almost one 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.760 point two billion dollar business last year, and it's expected 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:06.400 to more than double by twenty thirty. Our popular fiction 0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:09.680 can't even imagine a better future right now. Ninety percent 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.400 of modern future media takes place during or shortly after 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:17.600 an apocalypse. The odd exception today like Bong Juno's recent 0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:21.320 Mickey seventeen is so rooted in trump'st politics that we 0:31:21.360 --> 0:31:25.760 only catch occasional glimpses of anything beyond it. In other words, 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:28.520 in our fiction, there's no respite from the news. We 0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:32.400 watch a slow motion, self inflicted global economic collapse and 0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:35.800 then relax with shows about mushroom zombies or literal wage 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:39.800 slaves created by mind control surgery. In other words, it's 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.840 bleak out there. Tomorrow could be the day Trump invokes 0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:46.480 the Insurrection Act or uses the military to occupy Greenland, 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:49.120 or like one of a dozen equivalent horrors. We all 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:52.120 just know our coming in some form or another, even 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:54.600 if no one can say win. And I'm not here 0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:57.200 today to tell you how we're gonna get past all 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.160 of that or fix it, because I don't know. So 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.320 today I'm just here as a merchant of hope. My 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:06.240 job is to convince you that our species will someday 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:10.240 get past our bullshit and perhaps even lay claim to 0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.640 the stars. And no Elon Musk isn't going to have 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:16.320 anything to do with that. But in order to convince 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:18.000 you of all this, I'm going to have to talk 0:32:18.040 --> 0:32:22.400 about a movie. It's called Roar, and it is technically 0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:26.840 a nineteen eighty one comedy adventure film about an American naturalist. 0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:30.040 This guy lives on a nature preserve in Tanzania filled 0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:33.280 with big cats. His family comes to visit at the 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:35.560 same time as a grant committee shows up to evaluate 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.480 his project, which has an unclear goal. He's apparently just 0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:41.000 trying to prove people and giant cats from all over 0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.920 the world can live together, which the movie shows they can't. 0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:48.000 It's really immaterial what happens in the plot. All I 0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:51.280 can tell you is how Wikipedia describes it. I've watched 0:32:51.280 --> 0:32:53.400 this movie dozens of times, and I have very little 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:56.280 idea what it's supposed to be about. This is because 0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:58.720 in any given scene, the script is only ever a 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.680 vague suggestion, as each scene starts with actors trying to 0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.400 read lines and evolves into those same actors trying to 0:33:05.440 --> 0:33:09.360 survive while being mauled by dozens of lions, tigers, and panthers. 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:13.000 I should probably step back a minute to explain some things. 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:16.800 Roar is largely the brainchild of Tippy Hedron and her 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:20.120 husband Noel Marshall. If you're on the younger side, Tippy 0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:22.880 Hedron was the female lead in a little movie called 0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.640 The Birds It is a horror film and also an 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:29.600 early apocalypse flick by Alfred Hitchcock. It's often credited with 0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:35.160 inventing modern horror cinema. Hitchcock himself sexually and psychologically harassed Hedron, 0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:38.040 but his worst actions came during a crucial scene where 0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:41.160 Hedron was attacked by a flock of birds. Up to 0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:44.040 the day of filming, Hitchcock had assured Tippy the birds 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:47.440 used in this scene would be animatronic, but when the 0:33:47.480 --> 0:33:50.440 time came to shoot it, she spent five days having 0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:53.840 hundreds of live birds hurled at her in huge numbers 0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:57.600 by the crew. Hedron later described it as brutal, ugly, 0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:01.120 and relentless. Carrie Grant, her host star, told her she 0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:05.040 was the bravest woman he'd ever seen. Now, whatever other 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.520 impacts this had on Tippy, she has no discernible fear 0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:11.160 of animals after this point in her life, though she 0:34:11.200 --> 0:34:13.960 really should. Her husband, Noel is a bit more of 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:16.480 a mystery to me. He was an agent, a producer, 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:19.640 a film investor, and a serial entrepreneur whose best financial 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:23.200 decision was putting money mind what became The Exorcist. In 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:25.800 nineteen sixty nine, he and Hedron were in mosam Beaque 0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:28.680 while she starred in the film Satan's Harvest, about which 0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:31.520 less is said the better. This is only relevant because 0:34:31.600 --> 0:34:33.719 during their time in Africa, they observed a pride of 0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:36.920 lions lounging about an abandoned home, and this gave them 0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:40.040 an idea. They wanted to make a movie about poaching 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:43.040 and conservation, something that could use the power of film 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:46.960 to save these majestic creatures being threatened by humanity. All 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:49.120 four of their children agreed to star in it and 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:52.560 to help with production, but there were immediate snags. They 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:55.080 wanted the film to be set in a big cat sanctuary, 0:34:55.160 --> 0:34:57.440 but actual lion tamers warned them that it was flat 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.800 out impossible to keep so many large fee lines together safely. 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:04.160 This would eventually prove to have been very accurate advice. 0:35:05.239 --> 0:35:07.800 After a while, one tamer introduced them to their first 0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:10.480 tame lion, and, for reasons known only to God, he 0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:13.680 suggested to this traumatized movie star and her family of 0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:17.279 charmingly deranged Californians that they could just get their own 0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:20.719 big cats and train them by adopting animals confiscated from 0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:25.600 their previous owners, generally sketchy zoos and circuses. So a 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:27.759 lot of these cats had never known the wild, and 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:30.640 they'd often been badly mistreated given them. This was the 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:33.919 nineteen seventies. We must assume that some had been confiscated 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:37.560 property of coke dealers. Tippy and Noll had no professional 0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:40.920 or legal qualifications to care for dozens of big cats 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:44.600 when the authorities eventually found out there was trouble, although 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:46.960 since Hedrid and Marshall were rich, they bought their way 0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:49.600 out of said trouble by purchasing a rural compound and 0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:52.600 having a house built specifically for they and their dozens 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:56.319 of apex predators to live. While lions had inspired the 0:35:56.360 --> 0:35:59.480 initial vision, the compound in California soon filmed with big 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:02.960 adopted cats of every kind. Tippy and her husband took 0:36:03.000 --> 0:36:06.080 them in and raised them among and around their own children, 0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:08.760 who came to see the animals as something between pets 0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:12.440 and family. When they actually started filming the movie that 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:16.000 became Roar. Making any kind of movie had become secondary 0:36:16.040 --> 0:36:18.560 to the act of caring for these many, many giant, 0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:22.680 traumatized kiddies. As I noted earlier, the plot to Roar 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:25.759 is kind of immaterial. I've never watched it with the 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:27.880 sound on. I can tell you, though, that none of 0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:31.560 these cats were trained in any really meaningful way, which 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.960 meant that every scene devolved into the same spectacle. The casts, 0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:37.759 surrounded by dozens of giant cats, stumbled through a few 0:36:37.800 --> 0:36:40.080 lines before one or all of the cats began to 0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:42.640 bite and claw them, at which point each scene becomes 0:36:42.640 --> 0:36:46.080 about surviving from one moment to the next. Roar took 0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:48.040 more than five years to film in more than a 0:36:48.080 --> 0:36:51.440 decade to actually make. No cats were harmed during the 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:54.200 production of this movie, but more humans were injured than 0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:56.759 in any other film production on record. Of the one 0:36:56.840 --> 0:36:58.879 hundred and twenty or so cast and crew on Roar, 0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:02.400 more than one hundred suffer significant injury, often more than once. 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:06.440 Jan Debaut, the cinematographer, had his scalp ripped off by 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.600 a lion, requiring one hundred and twenty stitches. He went 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:13.160 on to make Speed and Twister. Melanie Griffith, Tippy's daughter 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:16.160 and a future star herself, left production at one point 0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:18.400 because she was worried a big cat might rip her 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:21.759 face off. She ultimately returned and immediately had a large 0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:25.839 chuntic of her face ripped off. Requiring extensive surgery. This 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:29.799 all sounds horrifying and impossible to justify. But before you 0:37:29.800 --> 0:37:31.759 make a final judgment, I want to remind you of 0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:35.640 two things. One, for all its horrors and severe injuries, 0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:38.120 fewer people were killed on the set of War than 0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:41.759 in Alec Baldwin's recent film Rust. The second thing that 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:44.200 you must remember is that Roar is a work of 0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:46.560 art on the level of Moby Dick. If you watch 0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:49.120 it enough, among the right people and in the right headspace, 0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:51.920 you can come to a deeper understanding of every facet 0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:54.600 of human existence. I've taken a lot out of it 0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:57.880 over the years. Recently it has convinced me that we 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:00.960 will one day get over our bullshit and escape the 0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.560 present hell that our species seems mired in. I know 0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:06.000 that doesn't make much sense now, but give me some time. 0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:19.440 I'll explain why. But first it's probably time for some ats. 0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:22.640 We're back, and the first thing I need you to 0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:25.319 understand about all of these fucking cats is that in 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.480 every mauling caught on tape, and there are dozens of them, 0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:31.360 I see no anger or malice in the actions of 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:34.160 these cats. I don't even see hunger. It's clear to me, 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:37.320 as a cat owner, that the cats didn't see these people, 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:39.839 Tippy and her family and the cast and crew, as 0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:42.759 prey or as a threat. If anything, they saw them 0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:46.160 as fellow big cats, cousins and close kin who they 0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:48.799 extend to kind of familiarity and perhaps even a kind 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:52.320 of love that, since they are cats, is expressed primarily 0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:54.680 by batting at them with claws that hit like bowie 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:57.680 knives embedded in the hood of a speeding camri. If 0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:01.440 you have cats of your own, you understand now. Given 0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:03.920 that nearly every person on this film was badly injured, 0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:07.080 including Tippy who got gang green from infected cat wounds, 0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:09.719 and all of her children, you might feel inclined to 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:11.600 judge who are a knol or both of them for 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:14.759 risking their kids lives to make this insane movie. I 0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:17.440 understand the impulse, but I believe it to be an error. 0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:20.239 The first thing you need to see to understand the 0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:23.080 deeper dynamics going on with War is a picture from 0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:26.239 a Playboy magazine photoshoot of Tippy's husband and co star, 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.840 Noel Marshall. He's in his office on his typewriter and 0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:32.279 this fully grown male lion gets up on his desk 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:36.600 because it wants attention again normal cat behavior, And despite 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:38.800 the best efforts of this animal, who has to weigh 0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:42.959 five hundred pounds, Noel Marshall won't stop focusing on his work, 0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:46.560 and so the cat inches away from his face roars. 0:39:47.320 --> 0:39:50.200 The sound of a male lion's roar is deeply imprinted 0:39:50.239 --> 0:39:53.000 on all of us, an epigenetic memory passed down by 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:55.319 the handful of our ancestors who heard the sound up 0:39:55.360 --> 0:39:58.279 close and lived to tell the tale. It has such 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:01.720 a foundational impact on our mind that Metro Goldwyn Meyer 0:40:01.920 --> 0:40:04.680 the film studio, used it to open every movie they 0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:07.719 made from nineteen twenty eight on. I believe they did 0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:09.799 this because the sound is a sort of hack to 0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:12.680 compel our attention. It pulls an audience out of whatever 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.799 state of mind dominates their outside lives and makes them 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:18.319 more attentive to the film that is to come. And 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:20.279 so the first thing you need to understand about the 0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:22.960 people who made Roar is that Marshall, upon having a 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:27.920 living adult lion inches from his face roar, gives the 0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:30.600 creature a look that says, hey, man, can you give 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:32.720 me a second. I'm like, I'm in the middle of something. 0:40:33.600 --> 0:40:35.719 I bring this up so that you will understand that 0:40:35.760 --> 0:40:38.759 these were not people operating on anything close to the 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.560 same wavelength as you and I. Their lives and their 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:46.279 choices are to outsiders inconceivable. There's another great photo from 0:40:46.280 --> 0:40:48.800 the set of that Playboy shoot. While the camera people 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:51.200 roamed the Heddroom compound, one of them caught a shot 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:55.080 of Tippy's adolescent daughter, Melanie, jumping into a pool. An 0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:57.600 adult male lion, which he must have considered to be 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:00.279 in some way a member of the family, as this 0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:02.400 girl passing by in the corner of its eye, and 0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:05.279 that motion ignites an instinct inside it, so like any 0:41:05.320 --> 0:41:08.080 cat of that size in the same situation, it reaches 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:11.319 out to bite her. Afterwards, the Hedron family and the 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:14.480 cast and crew had complicated feelings about what happened that 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:18.239 extended to the present day. Tippy divorced Marshall almost as 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:21.120 soon as the filming finally wrapped. She is alleged that 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:24.120 while Roar was being made, he utterly ignored her well being. 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:27.680 She also does not seem to have ever seriously considered leaving. 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:30.520 She later wrote that she quote was into it every 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:33.000 bit as much as he was, and that production was 0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:38.040 an obsessive, addictive drama. John Mitchell, Nol's son, who acted 0:41:38.080 --> 0:41:40.560 in the movie and like everyone else, was mauled repeatedly, 0:41:41.000 --> 0:41:42.959 came to own the rights to Roar when his dad 0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:46.440 died in twenty ten. Dad was a fucking asshole to 0:41:46.440 --> 0:41:49.040 do that to his family, he said recently. He also 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:51.800 said this, it was amazing to live through that. I 0:41:51.840 --> 0:41:54.239 should have died many times, but I kind of want 0:41:54.320 --> 0:41:57.120 to do it again. If you have any friends or 0:41:57.160 --> 0:42:00.399 family who have survived extended periods of every combat, there's 0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:02.719 a good chance they may have expressed a variation of 0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:06.560 the same feeling. This is because trauma is sometimes a 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:09.279 drug taking. It can be more than just hell. It's 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:11.840 often also a high, which is one thing that drives 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:14.440 a lot of people crazy. I need to take a 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:17.360 moment away from Rohar to talk about some people that 0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:20.360 I met in twenty seventeen in Iraq during the desperate 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:24.160 and ferocious urban combat against Isis. The closer I drew 0:42:24.200 --> 0:42:25.920 to the front, the more guys I met who were 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.840 elite veterans of the Iraqi Special Forces. They did the 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:32.200 bulk of the fighting. These were mostly young men ranging 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:34.160 from the tail end of their teens to their twenties. 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:37.400 Many had grown up in places like Fallujah fighting from 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:40.319 the time they were seven or eight, sometimes younger, they'd 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.480 been born into the US occupation. In many cases, their 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:47.279 earliest memories were as runners, ferrying supplies and information to 0:42:47.320 --> 0:42:49.880 the older men and teenage boys who did most of 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:53.560 the fighting. When the opportunity presented itself, they sometimes dropped 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:57.200 grenades or improvised explosive devices on US troops, most of 0:42:57.239 --> 0:42:58.840 whom were teenagers themselves. 0:42:59.600 --> 0:42:59.719 Now. 0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:02.760 They fought against ISIS in close quarters, building to building 0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:05.600 a few weeks at a time. Periodically, they'd rotate off 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:07.440 the front and would go to Urbil an hour or 0:43:07.480 --> 0:43:10.359 two away. Many of them were gangsters in their spare time, 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:13.640 running drugs and guns and brothels. They spent their days 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:16.279 off in a drunken haze of Turkish amphetamines. Then they 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:18.640 would drive back to the front in new, brightly colored 0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:21.799 Mustangs and dodged chargers. The trunks fold to bursting with 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:24.279 so many machine guns and rocket launchers they could only 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:27.520 be closed with bungee cords. The guns and rockets were 0:43:27.600 --> 0:43:30.239 useful at a distance to soften up enemy positions, and 0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:33.960 the impossibly dense warrenlike urban environment of Mosl's old city. 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:37.239 In every building, on every block, the fighting terminated with 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:39.719 door to door, room to room battles, where the most 0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:43.279 useful weapons were hand grenades, combat knives, and pistols in 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:46.399 that order. I don't know if any of these guys were, 0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:48.760 at that point that I met them, capable of feeling 0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:52.080 what Uuri would recognize as fear. These were the men 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:54.319 and boys whose bodies formed the cutting edge of the 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:57.839 fighting against Isis and Mosl on occasion when they kidnapped Ice. 0:43:57.840 --> 0:43:59.880 As fighters, some of them committed war crimes with the 0:43:59.880 --> 0:44:01.920 ease and with as much thought as you and I 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:05.880 give to breathing. This is bad, of course, unforgivable, but 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:08.239 I've never really given much thought to judging them for it. 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:11.000 Where would I even start. A thing I've come to 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:13.880 understand in my travels is that human beings are capable 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:17.200 of contorting themselves into the most incredible shapes in order 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:19.360 to fit into the times they're forced to live in. 0:44:20.040 --> 0:44:22.480 This has been the story of our entire long journey 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:24.400 on this earth, and if there is one reason our 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:27.080 species has survived above all the others, it is our 0:44:27.120 --> 0:44:31.680 capacity for infinite variety and infinite contexts. We can make 0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:35.080 ourselves into anything if we're given the right incentives, and 0:44:35.120 --> 0:44:38.520 to an extent, you can't judge individual humans without judging 0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:42.080 the incentives the world we collectively create presents for them. 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:44.839 We evolved, and we still live in a world where 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:47.560 trauma and pain are inevitable, and those of us who 0:44:47.640 --> 0:44:49.960 survive the worst things that life can throw at us 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:53.320 tend to become addicted, sometimes to the cause of the trauma, 0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:56.239 but nearly always to the people we experience it with. 0:44:57.320 --> 0:44:59.479 This is why the cast and crew of Roar often 0:44:59.520 --> 0:45:03.840 reported feeling almost addicted to spending time among these gigantic predators, 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:07.600 and it's why many kept coming back despite being repeatedly maimed. 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:12.080 Roar happened because the core cast and crew exhibited radical 0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:15.160 empathy for roughly one hundred and forty large cats and 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:19.080 for each other, and almost exercised zero critical judgment beyond 0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:22.800 that point. Now, I will understand if you still feel 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:25.759 that nothing could justify the decision of two parents to 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:28.840 risk their children's lives in such folly. And I know 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:31.680 this essay is supposed to be my ultimate enduring optimism 0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:34.120 about mankind's potential, and I'm going to get to that, 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.080 but you know, we still live in twenty twenty five. 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:50.400 So first, here's ads. So here's my best step at 0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:54.760 explaining why I find RAR inspirational. There's a scene about 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:57.720 three quarters of the way through this movie. After roughly 0:45:57.760 --> 0:46:00.160 an hour straight of watching the Hedron, Marshall family and 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:03.360 their friends get repeatedly mulled for real by giant cats. 0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:06.439 And in this scene, John Marshall finds a dirt bike 0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:08.960 and engineers a scenario that I am certain has never 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.360 happened before or since in the history of this planet. 0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:14.160 He rides away from the home where his family is 0:46:14.160 --> 0:46:17.600 trapped and draw several dozen lions, panthers, and tigers away 0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:20.719 by making them chase him. The cats assume this is 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.359 a game and repeatedly try to murder or maim him, 0:46:23.680 --> 0:46:26.400 but he continues building up speed in an ever greater 0:46:26.520 --> 0:46:29.200 tale of the most lethal killing machines to evolve on 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.680 this planet. You can see from the look in John's 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:35.359 eyes in this scene that he has no idea. If 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.240 he seconds away from death, it would have been physically 0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:41.760 impossible to stop or control this number of giant cats. 0:46:42.320 --> 0:46:45.640 The only reason this number and variety of lions, panthers, 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:48.840 and tigers would ever have existed together at any previous 0:46:48.840 --> 0:46:51.520 point in world history, would have been across a distance 0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:54.880 of thousands of miles of rugged wilderness. But thanks to 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:58.200 Tippean Knowles's insane dream, and thanks to the deranged and 0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:01.840 utterly unjustifiable commit of many of the crew and their family, 0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:06.120 a moment of utter novelty occurs where the singular assortment 0:47:06.160 --> 0:47:09.360 of big cats watches as a man fleeing in terror 0:47:09.360 --> 0:47:11.719 from them on a dirt bike does one of the 0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:16.239 sickest jumps in film history and lands directly into a river, 0:47:16.600 --> 0:47:19.560 and then keeps riding until he is charged by a 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:23.960 juvenile African elephant, which the Adrons also kept on their property. 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:28.280 In its uniqueness, this moment has to rival, if not exceed, 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:32.000 the Moon landing. After all, considerably more men have stepped 0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:34.160 foot on the Moon than have achieved what John Marshall 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:36.480 does in this scene, although some of that may be 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:38.920 due to the fact that it is extremely illegal for 0:47:39.000 --> 0:47:42.480 anyone today to even try. And this is why I 0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:45.279 encourage you to watch Roar My Dear Friends during the 0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:48.440 Dark Times, not because it's a good movie, but because 0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:52.160 it reveals what is best about humanity, What piece of 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:56.040 art could better illustrate the infinite possibilities within us. If 0:47:56.040 --> 0:47:58.360 a group of human beings can learn to live among 0:47:58.440 --> 0:48:02.120 lions and tigers, I fight the constant guarantee of severe 0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:05.880 injury without really understanding why is it's so mad to 0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:08.680 think that perhaps we two can transcend the barbarities of 0:48:08.719 --> 0:48:11.800 our age and become something better, or at least something 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:15.640 far stranger than money grubbing fascists. I don't know how 0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:18.200 we escape the darkness that seems to encroach a bit 0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:21.200 further with each passing day, but I do know this, 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:24.400 If we can make war, we can do anything. 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:48.960 Welcome to ikodapa Here Podcasts, where here is the rapidly 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:53.080 encroaching rise of fascism. My name is mir Wong, and 0:48:53.600 --> 0:48:56.239 one of the major vectors of fascism that we have 0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:59.080 been covering on this show has been the increase in 0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:03.719 just effectively straight up black baggings by ICE and immigration's 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:08.839 enforcement in general. We have spent a good amount of 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:11.480 time covering a bunch of different angles of this, but 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:15.160 there is another incredibly distressing angle that we have not 0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:17.920 covered as much yet, which is their targeting of labor 0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:20.759 organizers and with me to talk about that is Mark 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:23.600 Medina from Portland Jobs with Justice and the Coalition of 0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:27.680 Independent Unions And yeah, Mark, welcome to the show. 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:29.440 Hi, thanks for having me. 0:49:30.000 --> 0:49:32.360 Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. So one of 0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:36.040 the most pressing sort of black baggings that's happened fairly 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:41.120 recently is ICE's kidnapping of Alfredo Juareze Ferino, otherwise known 0:49:41.120 --> 0:49:44.640 as Lelo. Can you tell us about sort of his 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:48.080 work and the projects he's been doing and familius you 0:49:48.120 --> 0:49:49.240 need us pro Justicia. 0:49:49.800 --> 0:49:55.440 Yeah. So it's been a very disheartening and scary couple 0:49:55.440 --> 0:49:59.440 of weeks since it's happened, because this opens up a 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:02.880 new power for the state to go after organizers, to 0:50:02.960 --> 0:50:06.160 go after workers and the most underprivileged in our society 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:10.040 in a way that I suppose we all expected. But 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:12.200 now that we see it, now that we see it happening, 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:14.160 now that we see it happening to people that we 0:50:14.239 --> 0:50:18.680 know in our community, it's becoming apparent there is no 0:50:18.800 --> 0:50:21.759 turning back from the idea that we have to be 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:24.440 able to take this on head first. We as activists, 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:27.279 as organizers, have to look at this and see it 0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:29.799 as an actual thing in our day to day that 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:32.920 we have to combat and incorporate into our organizing. So 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:34.719 maybe it might be a little helpful to start off 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:37.040 with a little bit of a backstory on if I 0:50:37.080 --> 0:50:40.480 mean this need us by Lassay. So the union has 0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:43.880 its origins going back to twenty thirteen. The area in 0:50:43.880 --> 0:50:47.920 which they organize, the Bellingham or the Washington walkingscadget areas, 0:50:48.080 --> 0:50:52.200 has a very particular type of immigrant community there. Lelo 0:50:52.600 --> 0:50:56.960 himself is of Mextco background. There's a lot of indigenous 0:50:57.040 --> 0:51:00.640 Mexican populations in the region. It also want to have 0:51:00.760 --> 0:51:03.560 long routes. A lot of these people go back generations, 0:51:03.600 --> 0:51:06.720 have been here for quite some time. This area also 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:10.440 happens to be very particularly with the non Hispanic population, 0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:16.480 particularly the white population, a very conservative, particularly conservative for 0:51:16.560 --> 0:51:18.920 the area. It's one of the very few areas of 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:21.960 Northwest that Donald Trump came to visit. It's an area 0:51:22.080 --> 0:51:25.759 that has had repeated attacks on then imbric community. And 0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:29.880 so it's in this context that workers are organizing in 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:33.719 twenty thirteen for this first independent union. And two it's 0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:37.439 important to mention the independent part of it. A lot 0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:39.799 of the organizers from the start of this of the 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:44.120 union came from a tradition of the United farm Workers 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:48.120 in California. They some of them worked with such jabas 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:52.319 in the heyday of the United farm Workers. And in 0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:56.239 the years and decades since then, since the Dolana boycotts 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:58.920 and other things, there's been a growing rift of what 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:01.640 the next steps should be. And I think that for 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:04.200 a lot of farm workers, because they don't organize under 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:06.760 the general labor law that we have for most workers, 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:11.240 there is a sort of patchwork system for how farm 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:15.160 working organizing happens in the United States that's dependent upon 0:52:15.160 --> 0:52:18.400 different states and legislatures, and for the most part, with 0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:21.520 the exception of only two states, farm workers don't have 0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:25.759 the same kind of protections that regular workers generally in 0:52:25.760 --> 0:52:31.200 the society have for union recognition for collective bargaining. Only 0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:34.480 Washington and New York at the moment, I believe, have 0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:38.719 laws that allow for elections for farm worker unions, and 0:52:38.760 --> 0:52:40.760 there's a very particular reason for that being the case. 0:52:41.400 --> 0:52:44.360 Farm workers were excluded from the Wagner Act for having 0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:48.600 general labor rights in the nineteen thirties because precisely it 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:52.439 was seen as immigrant labor and immigrants were not seen 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:55.200 as meriting the same rights as white Americans in the 0:52:55.200 --> 0:52:58.040 same way that domestic workers were removed because I was 0:52:58.040 --> 0:53:00.560 seen at the time as black labor. So it has 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:01.600 its roots and racism. 0:53:01.840 --> 0:53:03.839 Yeah, and that's something that you know, like you can 0:53:03.880 --> 0:53:06.640 tie that exclusion, like there's a straight line between that 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:09.720 and Japanese and tournaments, which also to a large extent, 0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:14.200 is about land seizure and this sort of like fusion 0:53:14.200 --> 0:53:18.080 of racism, specifically racism in the farming sector with the 0:53:18.120 --> 0:53:20.239 tax and labor rights and with this desire to just 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:23.040 sort of seize literally the lands and labor from non 0:53:23.080 --> 0:53:23.600 white people. 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:24.400 Yeah. 0:53:24.520 --> 0:53:26.480 Yeah, So it's a long and bleak history. 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:30.120 No, absolutely, and I'm sure your audience is well aware 0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:31.719 of a lot of these subject matter. It is a 0:53:31.719 --> 0:53:36.400 bleak history. And it wasn't until groups like the United 0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:39.200 farm Workers in the sixties and the seventies. I they 0:53:39.680 --> 0:53:43.480 began to create the possibility for something new for the 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:47.719 Hispanic community. It was United farm Workers that built not 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:50.600 just a lot of solidarity with other immigrant groups in 0:53:50.640 --> 0:53:53.400 the California area, but they also built a sense of 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:59.080 pride and identity and belonging for a lot of communities. 0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:01.799 I grew up in Bluid High It's East Los Angeles. Says 0:54:01.840 --> 0:54:04.560 that Travis and Knight farm worker murals are everywhere. You know, 0:54:04.719 --> 0:54:06.480 me and my friends would often joke, as said Javis 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:08.680 is like the patron Saints. It is Los Angeles, even 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:11.480 though it's nowhere near Delano. And there's a reason for that. 0:54:11.840 --> 0:54:13.680 I think that a lot of us looked up to 0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:15.560 the United farm Workers. We looked up to the farm 0:54:15.560 --> 0:54:19.200 worker Union movement, and we saw in them our heroes, 0:54:19.360 --> 0:54:22.560 our modern day heroes. We saw them. We saw people 0:54:22.560 --> 0:54:25.560 who said, be proud to be brown. You know, there's 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:28.960 a courage that comes from that history. The union movement 0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:31.920 that then sprung up in twenty thirteen in the Bellingham 0:54:31.960 --> 0:54:35.200 Northern Washington area was coming out of that milieu. They 0:54:35.239 --> 0:54:38.439 understood that background, they understood that history, but they also 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:41.560 understood that there was very little organizing in the region. 0:54:41.600 --> 0:54:43.200 There was a lot of fear in the region. It's 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:47.080 very difficult to organize farm workers. To have access to 0:54:47.560 --> 0:54:49.600 a lot of these areas. You have to cross just 0:54:49.719 --> 0:54:52.719 private property for quite some time before you reach the 0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:55.759 first farm workers, and it becomes very very difficult to 0:54:55.760 --> 0:54:59.399 have organizing happen and it's intentional that way. The rise 0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:02.200 and farmers unions that happened in the sixties and seventies 0:55:02.480 --> 0:55:04.520 had a massive plummet by the time they begin into 0:55:04.520 --> 0:55:08.640 the nineteen two thousands, and so these workers had heard 0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:12.359 these stories, had heard by this legacy, but had been 0:55:12.680 --> 0:55:18.960 essentially deliver with increasing frustration, racist behavior by bosses, lower 0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:23.440 and lower pay, and the use of certain types of 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:27.520 immigrants to try to scab their jobs. It be the 0:55:27.560 --> 0:55:30.000 capitalist class using one type of worker against another type 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:33.239 of worker, picking them against each other. It's in this 0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:36.799 context in twenty thirteen that this union starts to form. 0:55:37.000 --> 0:55:40.920 They go public at that time period, they call for recognition, 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.759 and they started taking action directly, and they organized this 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:49.680 years and years long boycott campaign to gain recognition, to 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:53.279 get the employer to start bargaining. And after years and 0:55:53.360 --> 0:55:56.280 years of this and coourt battles and the employer trying 0:55:56.320 --> 0:55:59.240 to lay everyone off and hire certain types of newer 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:02.000 immigrants coming in to replace all of them, putting one 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:06.520 worker against another, all these types of maneuvers, by twenty seventeen, 0:56:06.840 --> 0:56:09.800 these workers win a contract, and the philosophy of the 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:12.640 union since then has been not just to grow this union, 0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:14.279 but also for them to be able to stand on 0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:16.960 their own two feet. Their idea is that they are 0:56:17.080 --> 0:56:20.000 very proud of their independent nature of that union. They're 0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:23.640 not part of the afl CIO, they're not part of 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:26.040 the Nice farm Workers, They're not part of any other organization. 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:28.120 You know, when I spoke to some of their leaders 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:29.959 last year, one of the things that came to mind 0:56:30.160 --> 0:56:33.200 was they brought up a quote from Eugene Debts, the 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:35.080 notion of like, if we were to lead you into 0:56:35.120 --> 0:56:37.560 the promised Land, someone else would just lead out. And 0:56:37.600 --> 0:56:39.600 the notion of their union is we have to be 0:56:39.640 --> 0:56:41.640 able to stand on our two feet. We can't rely 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:45.520 on anyone else, because if they promise us things today tomorrow, 0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:47.880 they'll hold something over us. And so the notion that 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:51.640 farm workers lead this movement and leave this union is 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:55.359 an incredibly powerful statement of what working class people can do. 0:56:55.600 --> 0:56:58.880 The kinds of workers that everyone else kinds of looks at. 0:56:58.960 --> 0:57:01.640 They could never do it. These you know, these workers 0:57:01.640 --> 0:57:03.880 could never handle this kind of level of struggle and 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:06.080 couldn't do this kind of organization have built one of 0:57:06.080 --> 0:57:09.200 the most powerful independent farm worker unions in the West Coast, 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:15.080 Lelo Alfredo Lelo was a founding member of this union. 0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:18.200 He was a farm worker studying at the age of twelve, 0:57:18.720 --> 0:57:23.760 and since then devoted his entire life organizing to helping workers, 0:57:23.880 --> 0:57:26.600 to being the kind of person who commits himself to 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:28.680 the work of making the world a better place than 0:57:28.680 --> 0:57:31.360 you found it. You know, at twenty five, he is 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:33.959 significantly younger than me. And when I think of people 0:57:33.960 --> 0:57:35.680 who I look up to, who I think as Wow, 0:57:35.680 --> 0:57:37.280 when I grew up, I want to be someone like that, 0:57:37.560 --> 0:57:38.360 I think of Lelo. 0:57:38.680 --> 0:57:39.120 Yeah. 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:41.040 I have met little many of times over the years. 0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:44.760 He's a very soft spoken, very thoughtful type of person. 0:57:45.280 --> 0:57:48.240 And yeah, I think that the labor movement owes him 0:57:48.280 --> 0:57:50.760 a bit of a debt. Now it is time that 0:57:50.800 --> 0:57:52.439 we as a whole stand up for him. 0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:53.520 Yeah. 0:57:53.720 --> 0:57:56.320 Yeah, we are going to go to ads regrettably, and 0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:58.800 then when we come back we are going to start 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:11.760 talking I think a bit more about the repression we 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:15.160 are back. So obviously then this is this is a 0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:17.720 part of the story that you've been telling, the sort 0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:20.480 of the sort of capitalist class out in Bellingham, and 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:22.600 you know, the sort of I mean, this has been 0:58:22.600 --> 0:58:25.200 true of the broader capitalist class since it's kind of 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:27.720 organizing starting like has been trying to break these unions 0:58:27.720 --> 0:58:29.919 this entire time. You know, that has been a major 0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:33.920 focus of everything that they've been doing. And you know, 0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:37.439 what we're seeing right now seems like a massive sort 0:58:37.480 --> 0:58:41.360 of escalation in the degree of repression. So, yeah, can 0:58:41.400 --> 0:58:46.280 we talk about the recent black bagging Alilo and yeah, 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:48.880 and sort of what happens and where we go from there. 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:53.600 Yeah. The weaponization of the state to go after immigrants 0:58:53.640 --> 0:58:56.760 and go after activists is I'm sure to your audist 0:58:56.800 --> 0:58:59.600 is well known. Is nothing yet and it no knows 0:58:59.640 --> 0:59:04.000 parties affiliation. The Democratic administrations have been doing this to 0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:07.720 immigrant communities, and I've been using it to silence political activists. 0:59:08.000 --> 0:59:10.720 The Trump administration, however, is now doing this on a 0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:13.640 level that is, at least to a lot of us 0:59:13.800 --> 0:59:16.080 unheard of in the modern day, which is to go 0:59:16.120 --> 0:59:19.960 after specific union leaders in the labor movement, to go 0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:23.920 after civil rights leaders. You've seen this happen also when 0:59:23.960 --> 0:59:28.440 it comes to Palistinian rights activists around the country. The 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:32.320 idea is pretty simple to silence the loudest voices, to 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:36.960 cut to leadership from the movement. On March twenty fifth, 0:59:37.240 --> 0:59:41.680 Alfredo Lelo Barres was dropping off his girlfriend at a 0:59:41.720 --> 0:59:47.240 nearby farm for work and was accosted by ICE agents 0:59:47.760 --> 0:59:50.360 as he was exercising his rights or what he thought 0:59:50.440 --> 0:59:53.240 his rights were at the time because of the regime, 0:59:53.280 --> 0:59:56.680 who knows what your rights are. They broke his window, 0:59:57.000 --> 0:59:59.320 they dragged him out of his car. You know, this 0:59:59.440 --> 1:00:02.919 was obviously very traumatic incident, but also is a real 1:00:03.040 --> 1:00:05.520 shock to the union to see to see the community 1:00:05.520 --> 1:00:08.880 group that works with the union, and to the local 1:00:09.160 --> 1:00:13.960 Hispanic community in the area. Within hours of that, workers 1:00:14.400 --> 1:00:18.840 organizers community went to move to try to carry a response, 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:22.000 knowing that time was of the essence. It was then 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:25.440 taken to a local life facility. He's now since been 1:00:25.480 --> 1:00:29.240 moved to a detention center in Tacoma, Washington. A large 1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:33.160 rally of hundreds took place calling for his immediate release. 1:00:34.000 --> 1:00:38.440 What we know now seemingly is that at the very 1:00:38.520 --> 1:00:41.840 last minute apologies I forget the exact day, but it 1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:45.280 was within a couple of days of the kidnapping, Lelo 1:00:45.840 --> 1:00:50.520 was pulled off. He has an automatic stay of deportation 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:54.320 in place at this point, no longer has any legal 1:00:54.360 --> 1:00:57.920 authority to remove Lelo. If this came at the last minute. 1:00:57.960 --> 1:01:01.040 He was in line for deportation and was moved at 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:03.840 the very last minute. However, while this is good news, 1:01:04.800 --> 1:01:09.320 this is not good for someone's personal health and well being. 1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:14.800 These are massively cramped facilities, underfunded facilities. You know, there's 1:01:15.080 --> 1:01:18.200 horror stories around the country of the conditions in some 1:01:18.280 --> 1:01:21.800 of these places. Every day that Lelo is stuck behind 1:01:22.040 --> 1:01:25.880 these prison walls is an injustice to our movement. 1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:29.280 Yeah, yeah, I think the thing it immediately reminds me 1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:33.080 of is the story of Thomas Paine, who was like 1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:37.080 slated to be executed in the French Revolution and they didn't. 1:01:37.080 --> 1:01:39.000 They didn't execute him because his door was opened, so 1:01:39.040 --> 1:01:40.640 they didn't see the slash line on the cell that 1:01:40.680 --> 1:01:42.760 was supposed to execute him. And then like the next 1:01:42.920 --> 1:01:45.640 day the reign of terror ended with the coup against 1:01:45.640 --> 1:01:48.200 the Jacobins. There rits me a lot of that, but 1:01:48.640 --> 1:01:50.560 you know, but on the other hand, here's the thing. 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:53.240 We have gotten the stay of the deportation, but we 1:01:53.320 --> 1:01:55.360 have not we have not brought down. 1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:56.280 The rate of terror yet. 1:01:56.520 --> 1:01:59.960 So yeah, and I would hope does it have to 1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:01.280 way four more years for that one? 1:02:01.400 --> 1:02:05.160 Yeah? Good lord, good lord? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:07.560 let's let's talk a bit about So. I mean, obviously, 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:10.200 you know what we're seeing here and this this is 1:02:10.200 --> 1:02:12.400 you know, the connection that you made is we're seeing 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:15.720 just on a sort of broad scale, the use of 1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:17.800 the state and of the sort of black bagging and 1:02:17.840 --> 1:02:21.280 of these deportations as a way to target organizers from 1:02:21.320 --> 1:02:25.640 Palestine to label organizers. That's only going to expand as 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:29.200 this goes on. And I think something critical about you know, 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:31.200 one of the first things you were saying here about 1:02:31.440 --> 1:02:33.600 the fact that they're targeting sort of the loudest voices 1:02:33.600 --> 1:02:35.880 in the community. And I think a big part of 1:02:35.920 --> 1:02:39.320 this is that they know that their position isn't as 1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:41.760 strong as they're making it out to be. Right, Like 1:02:41.840 --> 1:02:45.600 they have just detonated a nuke across the entire economy. 1:02:46.000 --> 1:02:49.400 They are systemically going through and individually fucking over every 1:02:49.440 --> 1:02:51.480 single group of people who are supposed to be their base. 1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:55.240 And I think part of what they're doing is they're 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:59.400 trying to spread sort of raw terror and spread fear 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:02.120 and you know, and and attack the critical infrastructure of 1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:06.120 organizing because they want to make it look like resisting 1:03:06.120 --> 1:03:11.120 them as impossible and that's just not true. They can be. 1:03:11.680 --> 1:03:11.880 Yeah. 1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:16.640 Absolutely. I think that oftentimes, particularly fascistic power wants and 1:03:16.800 --> 1:03:20.680 needs to present itself as inevitable, as overwhelming, and impossible 1:03:20.720 --> 1:03:24.640 to defeat, in part because it's meant to hide the 1:03:24.720 --> 1:03:28.640 ultimate weakness of some of these powers. The actual power 1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:32.880 that these farm workers showed against the Sukuma farms when 1:03:32.880 --> 1:03:35.360 they went on strike and boycotted for years and years 1:03:35.360 --> 1:03:37.960 and years out in the fields, talking to workers for 1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:39.920 years and years and years. It showed that no matter 1:03:39.960 --> 1:03:42.040 how powerful some of these companies are, some of the 1:03:42.160 --> 1:03:45.880 CEOs are that the power of workers overwhelmed and the 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:50.200 power solidarity overwhelms. And they know that going after leadership, 1:03:50.320 --> 1:03:52.760 going after some of the most some of the bravest 1:03:53.280 --> 1:03:56.200 people in our movement is a way of trying to 1:03:56.280 --> 1:03:58.600 hit the movement at the knees and trying to convince 1:03:58.640 --> 1:04:01.880 folks that struggle is impossible. But I think it is 1:04:01.960 --> 1:04:04.880 important to remember that what we're doing, the struggle now, 1:04:04.960 --> 1:04:09.240 the response. This is how we show the population the world, 1:04:09.760 --> 1:04:12.960 you know, our communities, that they are not inevitable, it 1:04:13.040 --> 1:04:17.760 is not insurmountable and so and by taking action responding 1:04:17.800 --> 1:04:20.560 to the kinds of fascistic behaviors of the state. We 1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:24.680 show how people the state can be at times, even 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:26.680 when it seems it's most treacherous and awful. 1:04:26.880 --> 1:04:29.680 Yeah, And I think a lot of times when we 1:04:29.920 --> 1:04:32.920 win fights, it can be very very hard to actually 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.960 see our victory because we don't see the world that 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:38.560 could have been if we didn't fight. And that's the 1:04:38.600 --> 1:04:40.640 thing I think about with the First Ship administration. We're 1:04:40.680 --> 1:04:42.800 in the First Hump administration. They absolutely wanted to be 1:04:42.880 --> 1:04:45.480 doing this kind of shit, and they were able to 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:48.280 do a lot of terrible stuff, but they weren't able 1:04:48.360 --> 1:04:50.920 to sort of go this far because of the kind 1:04:50.960 --> 1:04:54.120 of mass mobilizations that shut down a lot of the 1:04:54.200 --> 1:04:56.920 kinds of things that they wanted to do. And I 1:04:56.920 --> 1:04:59.520 think that's a kind of victory that is hard to 1:04:59.600 --> 1:05:03.680 kind of like process because all we see is, you know, 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:06.760 the suffering that did happen, and we can never see 1:05:07.840 --> 1:05:11.640 an image of like all of the people you know, 1:05:11.840 --> 1:05:16.120 who got to continue living their lives because we stop them, 1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:18.360 And that I think is another sort of powerful tool here. 1:05:18.440 --> 1:05:23.040 But also we do have an opportunity to make sure 1:05:23.320 --> 1:05:25.680 that we can beat them right here, right now in 1:05:25.720 --> 1:05:27.080 a way that's very very public, and. 1:05:28.200 --> 1:05:30.880 That's a question mark about that in my mind, because 1:05:31.320 --> 1:05:33.960 you know, my entire adult life, I've heard stories of 1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:36.840 the state repression against union organizers in the twenties and 1:05:36.880 --> 1:05:39.120 the thirties and the forties. You hear the stories if 1:05:39.120 --> 1:05:43.439 you're an organizer, about all the violent eras and how 1:05:43.480 --> 1:05:46.000 hard it was in the past, and we forget that 1:05:46.080 --> 1:05:48.880 a lot of that does continue on. It's just not 1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:51.960 where you would imagine it where a lot of American 1:05:52.080 --> 1:05:55.200 workers imagine it, and so they don't see it in 1:05:55.200 --> 1:05:59.000 their shops and their factories and their unions. But this 1:05:59.200 --> 1:06:02.080 right here is an attack on the labor movement. Had 1:06:02.160 --> 1:06:06.400 this been the head of you know, the Electricians Union, 1:06:06.480 --> 1:06:09.560 the head of the SCIU, Had this been an attack 1:06:09.680 --> 1:06:11.600 on what a lot of America would view as the 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:14.840 mainstream labor movement, this would be headlines. Yeah. The fact 1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:17.800 that it isn't shows, and that it has been so 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:20.880 much work to try to get attention to a union 1:06:20.920 --> 1:06:24.240 leader being picked up and kidnapped by the state should 1:06:24.280 --> 1:06:27.640 be you know, a blaring red light on the labor 1:06:27.680 --> 1:06:29.240 movement to take action immediately. 1:06:29.360 --> 1:06:29.600 Yeah. 1:06:29.920 --> 1:06:31.880 I hope that what we're doing is the first steps 1:06:31.880 --> 1:06:34.400 to that, because you know, this is one of those moments. 1:06:34.440 --> 1:06:36.680 If you know, they went after the trade unions unionists 1:06:36.680 --> 1:06:39.000 and I was not a trade unionist. Well, going after 1:06:39.000 --> 1:06:42.280 the farm workers, I am not a farm worker. It 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:45.360 isn't comment upon us morally to stand up for one 1:06:45.360 --> 1:06:46.439 another at this point in time. 1:06:46.880 --> 1:06:49.600 Yeah, And I think there's been a real kind of 1:06:50.640 --> 1:06:54.040 real cowardice and a real sort of appeasement of power, 1:06:54.280 --> 1:06:56.320 and a real demonstration of where a lot of these 1:06:56.360 --> 1:06:59.280 union's politics are. I mean, we saw the way that 1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:02.440 the Teamsters like leadership just I mean just you know, 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:03.800 openly went to speak at the R and C. 1:07:04.360 --> 1:07:04.560 Right. 1:07:04.880 --> 1:07:09.200 We've been seeing the UAW, which traditionally has had better 1:07:09.880 --> 1:07:12.720 like immigration politics in the last few years than a 1:07:12.720 --> 1:07:14.720 lot of these other sort of mainstream unions, but has 1:07:14.720 --> 1:07:16.800 also been sort of going to bat for Trump's tariff, 1:07:17.000 --> 1:07:20.240 Like I've been calling you the turf tariffs tariffs because 1:07:20.240 --> 1:07:22.360 of the wages of transphobia. But you know, they've been 1:07:22.400 --> 1:07:25.520 going to bat for like the turf tariffs, right, And 1:07:25.560 --> 1:07:27.840 that I think is part of why they've been sort 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:30.480 of unable to like respond to this moment, and why 1:07:30.520 --> 1:07:32.800 they've been unable to respond to the past fucking fifty 1:07:32.880 --> 1:07:35.800 years of moments, which is that like, if you're sort 1:07:35.840 --> 1:07:38.120 of like labor politics is rooted in this sort of 1:07:38.640 --> 1:07:43.080 like American nationalist, like American jobs for American workers stuff, right, 1:07:43.120 --> 1:07:46.200 and it's not actually based in the power of workers 1:07:46.200 --> 1:07:49.000 and the power of workers everywhere, then you're going to lose. 1:07:50.000 --> 1:07:52.480 It's it's not just sort of reactionary politics also it 1:07:52.680 --> 1:07:55.280 is it's also bad politics, and we're seeing it right now. 1:07:55.760 --> 1:07:58.280 Yeah, And I think that the history of labor movement 1:07:58.280 --> 1:08:00.320 has been an interesting one in my adult life because 1:08:01.000 --> 1:08:03.280 you know, I'm as pro liber as they come. However, 1:08:03.360 --> 1:08:05.480 the history of labor movement in the modern day has 1:08:05.520 --> 1:08:08.240 been a fascinating one. It is one that when it 1:08:08.280 --> 1:08:11.880 came to large strikes, was that its natier at the 1:08:11.920 --> 1:08:14.600 mid and late two thousands. I think at one point 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:17.400 it was just over a dozen strikes over two thousand workers. 1:08:17.800 --> 1:08:20.000 And you compare that to the high of the labor 1:08:20.040 --> 1:08:21.880 movement in the forties and the fifties when it was 1:08:21.920 --> 1:08:24.320 in the hundreds, and you've had strike actions all the time, 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:26.479 and that is what builds so much at what we 1:08:26.560 --> 1:08:29.000 call the middle class for some And it was this 1:08:29.120 --> 1:08:31.240 really historic moment at the time, and we're in a 1:08:31.439 --> 1:08:33.800 historic moment now where I think the labor movement for 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:37.519 so long from that point, has been trying. Workers from 1:08:37.520 --> 1:08:39.880 the rank and file have been trying to kind of 1:08:40.240 --> 1:08:43.360 reshape the labor movement in the thoughts and the ideas 1:08:43.439 --> 1:08:47.559 of the new But it comes with its own regressive setbacks, 1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:51.600 and it comes with its own shortcomings of leadership. You know, 1:08:51.680 --> 1:08:55.719 the teams tours making statements around immigration rights was a 1:08:55.840 --> 1:08:58.960 very unfortunate thing to be said in the modern day. 1:08:59.000 --> 1:09:02.280 In the modern context, I think that you know, other 1:09:02.439 --> 1:09:07.400 unions seemingly looking to you know, circle the wagons rather 1:09:07.479 --> 1:09:10.960 than take the risks that need to happen in this 1:09:11.040 --> 1:09:15.599 current time has really shown a lack of imagination from 1:09:15.600 --> 1:09:18.160 some of the mainstream unions. And the thing is, I 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:20.240 hope for the best for them. I want them to 1:09:20.280 --> 1:09:22.640 succeed and I want them to get better because the 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:25.320 world is a better place we're having these larger unions. However, 1:09:25.960 --> 1:09:29.680 if the independent movements, the independent unions like Familias who 1:09:29.680 --> 1:09:32.799 need this Quo Thesia, like these other unions in the region, 1:09:33.280 --> 1:09:36.000 that can be the kind of canary in the coal mine, 1:09:36.000 --> 1:09:39.240 the kind of labs of experimentation that can be the 1:09:39.280 --> 1:09:42.559 first people out to do some of the most radical 1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:47.280 and interesting and worker centric type of movement building and messaging. Like, 1:09:47.760 --> 1:09:49.800 I think there is the reason why it was the 1:09:49.800 --> 1:09:52.880 coalition of independent unions here in the Pacific Northwest that 1:09:53.040 --> 1:09:55.760 came up with the notion of having transity of solidarity, 1:09:55.840 --> 1:09:59.720 this idea of patterning contracts together to have inclusive and 1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:03.800 pre for trans workers and having that be a thing 1:10:03.840 --> 1:10:08.240 that unions take up together. I think that it's incredibly 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:10.920 notable that it's group's life, I mean us who need 1:10:10.920 --> 1:10:14.840 as Yeah, they carry out this long years long boycott 1:10:15.040 --> 1:10:17.960 and created a model by which other workers in the 1:10:18.000 --> 1:10:21.040 region can not just organize themselves, but organize themselves on 1:10:21.080 --> 1:10:25.280 a low cost, member led democratic model. I think it's 1:10:25.320 --> 1:10:29.360 important to see that sometimes the large unions have to 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:32.200 start looking at some of the radical pragmatism that comes 1:10:32.240 --> 1:10:35.320 from the necessities of these smaller independent campaigns. 1:10:35.840 --> 1:10:37.680 Yeah, and I mean before we go to ads. I 1:10:37.680 --> 1:10:39.080 think the last thing I want to say there is, like, 1:10:39.080 --> 1:10:41.040 you know, the other option they have is to do 1:10:41.080 --> 1:10:42.840 the option of what the unions didn't during the rise 1:10:42.840 --> 1:10:45.120 of the Nazis, which is like dream the rise of 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:47.200 the Nazis the unions fell in line, right, They fell 1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:48.760 in line because they were scared and they thought that 1:10:48.800 --> 1:10:51.519 they could fucking win benefits from it. And you know, 1:10:51.680 --> 1:10:54.679 it saved some of them, like they were a few 1:10:54.720 --> 1:10:58.439 of those people like just became Nazis, but the rest 1:10:58.439 --> 1:11:02.280 of them got fucking liquidated anyways. So those are your options, right, 1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:05.240 You either stand and fight now with the independent unions, 1:11:05.760 --> 1:11:09.000 or you become part of the regime and eventually get liquidated. 1:11:09.040 --> 1:11:11.640 When you know, Trump in like fucking two and a 1:11:11.680 --> 1:11:14.280 half years science executive order that says unions are illegal 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:14.839 or whatever. 1:11:15.200 --> 1:11:16.920 Yeah, and what does that do at the end of 1:11:16.960 --> 1:11:18.840 the day, even if it staves, even if you're the 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:22.280 head of some of these larger unions. And by working 1:11:22.280 --> 1:11:26.960 with the administrative the administration today, by selling your soul, 1:11:27.080 --> 1:11:30.719 by selling the movement out, you give up the moral 1:11:30.800 --> 1:11:35.120 high ground of our movement, of our working class democratic movement. Yeah, 1:11:35.200 --> 1:11:38.040 you give it up for another generation. Then when workers, 1:11:38.080 --> 1:11:40.400 when people look myself growing up, looking at images of 1:11:40.439 --> 1:11:44.040 the United farm Workers, there are similar I presume there 1:11:44.040 --> 1:11:46.559 are similar people in the United States growing up who 1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:49.240 look that way up to the Unitedado Workers, look that 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:52.240 way up to the Teachers' Union. What happens to those children, 1:11:52.240 --> 1:11:54.240 to those kids, those young people who want to be 1:11:54.280 --> 1:11:57.519 the next leadership, the next era of the labor movement, 1:11:57.960 --> 1:12:00.240 they will not look at us as having the moral 1:12:00.320 --> 1:12:02.880 high ground. We give that up. We give our role 1:12:02.920 --> 1:12:05.439 in history, our moral role in history to fight with 1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:07.519 a working class when we do things like this. 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:10.040 Yeah, and what you become and set is just another 1:12:10.080 --> 1:12:11.960 extension of the state. You become like one of like 1:12:12.000 --> 1:12:16.040 the national syndicates and like Franco of Spain. And and 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:17.960 what that does to you is people people don't look 1:12:18.000 --> 1:12:21.439 at you in a generation as a labor movement. They 1:12:21.520 --> 1:12:23.880 look at you as just another arm of a fascist regime. 1:12:24.880 --> 1:12:27.040 And it doesn't have to be like that, It really doesn't. 1:12:27.200 --> 1:12:29.479 But yeah, no, it does not, Yea. I take no 1:12:29.520 --> 1:12:31.639 pleasure in saying this, you know, I take no pleasure 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:34.480 in saying this. But it's an unfortunate reality. And hopefully 1:12:34.960 --> 1:12:37.799 the turnaround can come from anywhere, it can come from 1:12:37.840 --> 1:12:40.280 from unexpected places. And I hope that there is one, 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:44.080 and things like solidarity for Lelo, I hope it'd be 1:12:44.160 --> 1:12:46.400 a small link in the chain that moves the pensulum 1:12:46.439 --> 1:12:49.080 right back into the direction of an ethical and moral 1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:52.400 superiority that comes with fighting for working class folks. 1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:54.599 Yeah, we're going to take an ad break and when 1:12:54.640 --> 1:12:56.559 we come back, we're going to talk about what we 1:12:56.640 --> 1:13:00.640 can do for lelo. Right now as listening to this, 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:15.479 we are back, So let's talk about both the operation 1:13:15.600 --> 1:13:18.679 I mean, just immediately, the plans to sort of put 1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:21.519 pressure to Freelillo, and also what then I guess we'll 1:13:21.520 --> 1:13:23.639 get into sort of more broadly the kinds of fighting 1:13:23.640 --> 1:13:25.200 that we need to be doing in order to resist this. 1:13:26.080 --> 1:13:29.080 Sounds good. So, like I mentioned earlier, and you need 1:13:29.120 --> 1:13:32.920 an aftermath of lelo is kidnapping by ice, workers in 1:13:32.960 --> 1:13:38.320 the region began organizing and unions came together and support 1:13:38.320 --> 1:13:41.519 a Lelo and help a rally in front of attention 1:13:41.640 --> 1:13:45.360 center in Tacoma. Now, what we're trying to do is 1:13:45.400 --> 1:13:48.760 trying to spread the word further. There are other communities, 1:13:48.840 --> 1:13:52.440 particularly here on the West Coast, that can't stand solidarity, 1:13:52.800 --> 1:13:55.559 that should stand in solidarity. And when we heard this 1:13:55.640 --> 1:13:58.840 needs to go down, activists within the CiU asked themselves, 1:13:59.240 --> 1:14:02.080 we can't stand idly by while a leader in our 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:05.200 movement is kidnapped by the state. We need to take action, 1:14:06.040 --> 1:14:08.439 and so we did. And the point was to move 1:14:08.439 --> 1:14:11.519 as quickly as possible to try to build a larger 1:14:11.640 --> 1:14:16.280 voice for Lelo while he is in detention. So there 1:14:16.360 --> 1:14:19.080 is a good number of activists here in the Portland area. 1:14:19.200 --> 1:14:22.080 We can be of service to the farm Workers Union. 1:14:22.320 --> 1:14:25.559 You know, we have a strong core of independent unions 1:14:25.600 --> 1:14:28.800 here in the Pacific Northwest, particularly in the Portland area. 1:14:28.880 --> 1:14:31.200 We can do what other unions are hesitant to do, 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:33.760 which is take action immediately. It stands firmly with our 1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:38.040 brothers and sisters are monosynas up in northern Washington. So 1:14:38.280 --> 1:14:41.960 what's happening is the call from the union is workers individually, 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:44.800 for people individually to call into the Attorney General in 1:14:44.920 --> 1:14:49.320 Washington State and call to the release of Lelo, also 1:14:49.360 --> 1:14:51.920 calling the new governor up in Washington State to call 1:14:52.000 --> 1:14:54.920 for the release. Bring a wider attention, making me known 1:14:54.920 --> 1:14:58.000 that this person is someone who is important to the community, 1:14:58.400 --> 1:15:01.680 cannot be expirited away to another country where they are 1:15:01.800 --> 1:15:04.840 not from, where that is not their home, and taking 1:15:04.880 --> 1:15:07.160 away from their family, the community, from the good work 1:15:07.160 --> 1:15:10.040 that they do. And the other thing that we're trying 1:15:10.080 --> 1:15:12.720 to do is we're trying to get local officials to 1:15:12.840 --> 1:15:18.280 also use their voice to maximize the pressure to give 1:15:18.400 --> 1:15:22.880 more attention to this issue. So that's the call so far. 1:15:23.439 --> 1:15:26.040 This rally that we're having in front of city Hall 1:15:26.560 --> 1:15:31.439 on Saturday, April twelfth at two pm is the beginning 1:15:31.520 --> 1:15:34.360 of what we hope is a larger campaign that will 1:15:34.400 --> 1:15:37.800 not end until Lelo is free and until these raids 1:15:37.840 --> 1:15:41.479 stop attacking the labor movement in the Pacific Northwest. You know, 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:44.719 just because we in Portland, you know, are not farm workers, 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:46.599 because we don't work with farm workers, because a lot 1:15:46.600 --> 1:15:50.240 of the workers who work here had maybe never met 1:15:50.280 --> 1:15:52.880 a farm worker, it does not mean that we should 1:15:52.880 --> 1:15:56.040 not stand shoulders shoulder and arm and arm and support 1:15:56.120 --> 1:15:58.519 the farm workers Union up in northern Washington to the hilt. 1:15:58.800 --> 1:16:00.880 And this begins this fight building that kind of level 1:16:00.920 --> 1:16:04.000 of solidarity. It begins by showing up for them doing 1:16:04.040 --> 1:16:05.720 what they can do right now. They don't have the 1:16:05.760 --> 1:16:08.639 resources to go stay by day in city by city 1:16:08.840 --> 1:16:10.720 to bring its tension and awareness to one of their 1:16:10.800 --> 1:16:13.559 leaders being attacked. But we can do it, and if 1:16:13.560 --> 1:16:15.000 we can do it, we should do it. It's a 1:16:15.080 --> 1:16:16.840 moral imperative that little be free. 1:16:17.360 --> 1:16:19.880 Yeah, And so I mean statistically there are a lot 1:16:19.880 --> 1:16:21.920 of you in Portland listening to the show, but statistically 1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:24.479 most of you are not in Portland. Are are there 1:16:24.520 --> 1:16:26.000 things that people in the rest of the country, and 1:16:26.040 --> 1:16:27.600 I guess the rest of the world. I know, I 1:16:27.600 --> 1:16:31.320 know there's so Sally statistically don't live in the US. 1:16:31.920 --> 1:16:32.120 Yeah. 1:16:32.200 --> 1:16:33.800 Are are there things that people in other places can 1:16:33.840 --> 1:16:36.800 do to put pressure specifically for Alala, but also just 1:16:37.000 --> 1:16:40.080 can do in their own communities to you know, I 1:16:40.080 --> 1:16:41.960 mean put pressure to stop these raids? 1:16:42.200 --> 1:16:42.479 Yes? 1:16:42.520 --> 1:16:46.320 Absolutely, So this is very similar I think to the CiU. 1:16:46.439 --> 1:16:48.920 The Coalition of Independent Unions is Coalition of Independent Unions 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:51.400 here in the Pascopical Northwest. It was trying to do 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:54.120 and it's trying to do with TRANSI of solidarity. The 1:16:54.200 --> 1:16:57.240 idea is we are trying to make this work here 1:16:57.280 --> 1:16:59.920 in the Pacific Northwest and if it's useful, if it's good, 1:17:00.120 --> 1:17:02.479 if people are paying attention to it, then we can 1:17:02.520 --> 1:17:05.000 export this to other cities in other areas to bring 1:17:05.040 --> 1:17:07.800 more attention to these causes. And so with that one 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:11.640 paving earning contracts together, particularly on this one issue of 1:17:11.920 --> 1:17:14.519 tresender health care and trans incluencive language and contracts and 1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:17.880 codifying that between unions and having that a demand of 1:17:17.960 --> 1:17:20.439 labor movement that they not walk away from this. We 1:17:20.520 --> 1:17:23.160 want to also do the same thing with this fight 1:17:23.240 --> 1:17:26.040 for freedom for the farm Workers Union and their leaders 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:30.200 and workers everywhere. And the tax will come soon enough, 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:33.839 I suppose, I would imagine from this regime in Washington, 1:17:34.520 --> 1:17:37.760 if this works, we want workers in other cities to 1:17:37.800 --> 1:17:40.360 start assisting the farm worker Union take them up the 1:17:40.400 --> 1:17:43.920 call of action and fighting for so not just let up, 1:17:43.920 --> 1:17:46.240 but whoever comes afterwards, because there will be lettles in 1:17:46.280 --> 1:17:49.720 the future, unfortunate as they may be. So if this 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:53.240 works here, if workers here, as they hear more updates, 1:17:53.400 --> 1:17:56.000 we would hope and we would love if workers elsewhere, 1:17:56.200 --> 1:17:59.559 if organizing groups elsewhere would want to take up this 1:17:59.640 --> 1:18:01.679 fight and bring attention to the cause. 1:18:02.320 --> 1:18:04.599 Hell yeah, yeah. And I think there is a lot 1:18:04.680 --> 1:18:07.840 of you know, potential and sort of mobilizations. There's a 1:18:07.840 --> 1:18:10.840 lot of potential in getting people to understand that this 1:18:10.840 --> 1:18:13.679 stuff's happening, And there's a lot of potential in cross 1:18:13.720 --> 1:18:15.559 uniting organizing. And also, and I will say this too, 1:18:15.600 --> 1:18:18.640 because like you know, obviously statistically, like there are a 1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:20.960 large number of people listening to this who are like 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:24.800 union staffers, but also like most of you are not. 1:18:25.720 --> 1:18:28.360 That also doesn't mean that whatever kind of organizing that 1:18:28.400 --> 1:18:31.040 you're doing doesn't overlap with this and doesn't have capacity 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:33.360 that they can bring to bear to stop the entire 1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:37.160 deportation regime that we're facing right now. And that's something 1:18:37.160 --> 1:18:39.880 that you have to do both on the level of solidarity, 1:18:39.920 --> 1:18:42.120 on a moral level, and also on a strategic level, 1:18:42.160 --> 1:18:44.639 because again is going to come for you too. 1:18:45.160 --> 1:18:49.679 So yeah, yeah, you know, without making it too personal, 1:18:49.720 --> 1:18:52.080 like I know level personally, I have met a little 1:18:52.120 --> 1:18:56.120 many times over the years. He's a fantastic person. The 1:18:56.240 --> 1:18:58.320 reason why a lot of us as organized is why 1:18:58.360 --> 1:19:00.720 we do this kind of work to begin with, is 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:05.720 because we believe, as bizarrely as it may be, that 1:19:05.760 --> 1:19:07.240 we could be a link in the chain that makes 1:19:07.240 --> 1:19:10.120 the world a better place, that we can leave the 1:19:10.160 --> 1:19:13.320 world better off than we found it. And we also 1:19:13.560 --> 1:19:16.400 believe in what we're doing because when we look at 1:19:16.439 --> 1:19:20.120 people who have been attacked by corporations and attacked by 1:19:20.160 --> 1:19:23.960 the state, we feel in moral compulsion to help. And 1:19:24.000 --> 1:19:26.360 what I would say to folks who are outside of 1:19:26.400 --> 1:19:29.759 Portland who are hearing this story who hear the calls 1:19:29.800 --> 1:19:33.280 to call the Attorney General in Washington State and demand 1:19:33.280 --> 1:19:36.320 that they'll be released. To follow up with the union 1:19:36.360 --> 1:19:39.920 by media Plicia further direction on how they can assist 1:19:40.160 --> 1:19:42.959 and potentially holding their own rallies and support and solidarity 1:19:43.000 --> 1:19:46.120 and bring attention to the issue. I would hope that 1:19:46.160 --> 1:19:50.719 they do this. Imagine if Letlo were your brother, Imagine 1:19:50.720 --> 1:19:55.400 if Leto were your cousin, your father, your friend, Act 1:19:55.560 --> 1:19:58.840 as if they were they were them, because it require 1:19:59.040 --> 1:20:03.519 that level of to have the kind of solidarity that 1:20:03.560 --> 1:20:06.040 we need in order to fight this fastest regime and 1:20:06.120 --> 1:20:08.600 everything that it does. It is easy to say I 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:10.960 will wait for someone else to do the work. I will, 1:20:11.680 --> 1:20:14.800 someone else will come along and it'll get resolved that way. No, 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:17.240 if you don't do the work, it just will not 1:20:17.360 --> 1:20:19.599 get done. And so we have to go in every 1:20:19.680 --> 1:20:22.879 day as part of civic engagement and assisting the working class, 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:26.559 as part of our daily routines and using the kind 1:20:26.600 --> 1:20:31.080 of the kind of sense of moral necessity and of 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:35.320 immediate action it requires that you would do for someone 1:20:35.400 --> 1:20:37.600 that was close to you, because this person is you 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:40.320 just by another name, This person is your family. Even 1:20:40.360 --> 1:20:42.360 if you've never met them. We are all in this 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:45.080 together as working class people, and if we start coming 1:20:45.160 --> 1:20:47.360 up with boundaries and reasons for why we shouldn't stand 1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:50.640 up for one another, those reasons then become excuses for 1:20:50.720 --> 1:20:53.519 everyone else. So I would hope that when people hear this, 1:20:54.000 --> 1:20:57.160 they look and see the struggle of this person, and 1:20:57.160 --> 1:20:59.519 they can imagine what would happen to them in the future, 1:20:59.520 --> 1:21:01.519 and they say, I would want someone there for me 1:21:01.680 --> 1:21:03.760 in my corner, in my time of me, So I 1:21:03.800 --> 1:21:05.440 will be there for them and theirs. 1:21:05.840 --> 1:21:08.120 Yeah, it reminds me a lot of this line from 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:11.680 Peggy Seeger, who wrote and wrote an anti fascist song 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:14.680 called Song of Choice, and one of the verses that's 1:21:14.680 --> 1:21:18.800 always stuck with me is today the soldiers took away one. 1:21:19.120 --> 1:21:22.280 Tomorrow they may take away two. One April, they took 1:21:22.280 --> 1:21:26.479 away Greece, but surely they will never take you. And 1:21:27.200 --> 1:21:29.200 you know, I mean, that's the thing that people in 1:21:29.240 --> 1:21:31.160 the thirties woke up to, right is you know, if 1:21:31.200 --> 1:21:32.280 you're in this country and this is the thing that 1:21:32.280 --> 1:21:34.000 you're waking up to now, is that, Yeah, the soldiers 1:21:34.040 --> 1:21:37.599 are taking people away, and every day they're taking away 1:21:37.640 --> 1:21:40.320 more and more people and one day you wake up 1:21:40.320 --> 1:21:43.680 and they've taken entire countries. And the only way that 1:21:43.720 --> 1:21:46.040 you can stop this is by making sure that the 1:21:46.080 --> 1:21:48.040 action that you're taking is not just waking up and 1:21:48.120 --> 1:21:50.840 going back to sleep. Right, Yep, you have to take 1:21:50.840 --> 1:21:53.000 a stand. You have to fight because no one is coming. 1:21:53.439 --> 1:21:56.519 The only person who was coming for these people, the 1:21:56.560 --> 1:21:58.519 only person who was coming for the people coming next 1:21:58.520 --> 1:22:00.759 to them, and inevitably the only people who is coming 1:22:01.439 --> 1:22:03.479 to save you when they come for you is going 1:22:03.560 --> 1:22:07.519 to be you. And you know there there are enough 1:22:07.520 --> 1:22:09.720 of us to stop them, right there always have been. 1:22:09.800 --> 1:22:12.320 That's that's always been a thing about fascism is that 1:22:12.360 --> 1:22:15.360 it relies on us not fighting them, but relies on 1:22:15.479 --> 1:22:19.479 us on our passivity. It relies on us not caring 1:22:19.560 --> 1:22:22.080 enough about the people that they take first, you know, 1:22:22.160 --> 1:22:23.800 to sit back and do nothing and think that we 1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:26.759 can wait, and you can't have You have to start 1:22:26.960 --> 1:22:29.760 right now, and you have to stop them before they 1:22:29.800 --> 1:22:32.400 advance any further. And you have to roll back what 1:22:32.479 --> 1:22:35.600 they've already done. And this is our opportunity to do that. 1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:40.080 Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I think that says that they encapsulates 1:22:40.080 --> 1:22:40.880 the sentiment perfectly. 1:22:40.880 --> 1:22:43.840 Well, yeah, do you have anything else that you want 1:22:43.840 --> 1:22:45.920 to add before we head out, and we will put 1:22:45.960 --> 1:22:49.439 links to a whole bunch of things in the description 1:22:49.560 --> 1:22:49.800 to this. 1:22:51.120 --> 1:22:55.519 Yeah, yeah, I suppose to those that would want to 1:22:55.560 --> 1:22:59.439 know more about not just the struggle of the farm 1:22:59.439 --> 1:23:04.000 workers doing, but also the general experiments in independent unionism 1:23:04.040 --> 1:23:07.240 here in the Pacific Northwest, I'd highly encourage that folks 1:23:07.479 --> 1:23:10.960 take a deep dive and see that to organize your 1:23:11.000 --> 1:23:14.240 workplace to have the kind of solidarity with your coworkers, 1:23:14.640 --> 1:23:18.960 you need not be dependent upon someone else and other 1:23:19.120 --> 1:23:22.599 organizations that come in and sort of rescue you from 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:26.360 the mystery and drudgery of non union workplaces. You can 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:28.880 do it too. You can create. You have it in 1:23:28.920 --> 1:23:31.200 your head, in your own mind and your own ends, 1:23:32.040 --> 1:23:35.040 the ability to organize, the ability to fight with your coworkers, 1:23:35.360 --> 1:23:38.960 you have the kind of clever problem solving skills that 1:23:39.040 --> 1:23:42.519 every worker has in order to come back the boss 1:23:42.560 --> 1:23:45.120 and create a better world than the one that currently exists. 1:23:45.640 --> 1:23:48.719 And also that when it comes to issues like standing 1:23:48.800 --> 1:23:52.000 up for this struggle now and struggles in the future, 1:23:53.320 --> 1:23:57.320 I would say you have it now, the creative capacity 1:23:57.760 --> 1:24:01.519 to in whatever city you're in, to make connections to 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:04.120 build inroads with the labor movement, to build inroads with 1:24:04.160 --> 1:24:07.679 working class people, and to try to create those bonds 1:24:07.920 --> 1:24:11.000 that happen. We here are trying to build closer bonds 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:15.280 with city workers and farm workers out out in the country. Yeah, 1:24:15.360 --> 1:24:17.200 it's an important struggle because one it's going to be 1:24:17.240 --> 1:24:19.680 more and more important in the future. You don't have 1:24:19.760 --> 1:24:21.519 to wait for anyone else to tell you how to 1:24:21.560 --> 1:24:25.719 do that. You yourselves can show solidarity and work together 1:24:26.160 --> 1:24:28.120 to build those kinds of bonds now so that in 1:24:28.160 --> 1:24:31.439 the future you can create working class movements that whether 1:24:31.479 --> 1:24:34.479 that takes the form of collective bargaining or something else. 1:24:34.960 --> 1:24:37.519 Organizing for the common good is useful no matter in 1:24:37.720 --> 1:24:39.280 what legal capacity it happens. 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:41.160 Yeah, and I mean, you know, one of the last 1:24:41.160 --> 1:24:42.720 point I want to add about that in terms of 1:24:43.479 --> 1:24:45.400 looking at like you not needing help to do things, 1:24:45.439 --> 1:24:47.519 like you know, I know a lot of the people 1:24:47.680 --> 1:24:50.960 who you know, like are the organizers who are hired 1:24:51.080 --> 1:24:54.439 by places like the UAW, like AFLCIO unions. Right, they're 1:24:54.479 --> 1:24:58.320 good people. Like, they're good people, they're good organizers. They 1:24:58.400 --> 1:25:01.680 don't know anything that you can learn, Like, a lot 1:25:01.720 --> 1:25:05.280 of these people are just literally college students right, who 1:25:05.280 --> 1:25:08.479 are recruited like from college campuses and are thrown with 1:25:08.520 --> 1:25:12.600 no training into organizing these things, right, And you know, 1:25:12.720 --> 1:25:15.879 and again these are people who are just like stepping 1:25:15.920 --> 1:25:19.960 out of classrooms into like into these organizing scenarios with 1:25:20.040 --> 1:25:21.640 very minimal training, and they've been able to do it. 1:25:21.640 --> 1:25:23.960 And if those people can do it, so can you, Like, 1:25:24.040 --> 1:25:27.000 I know you, I know, I know these organizers and 1:25:27.760 --> 1:25:31.040 the only difference between them and you is that they 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:34.360 spent some time learning some things and then they apply 1:25:34.479 --> 1:25:38.120 the same tools like they apply in some ways worse 1:25:38.240 --> 1:25:40.960 versions of the same tools that the independent union organizers use. 1:25:41.000 --> 1:25:42.519 And they're all tools that you can learn. 1:25:43.040 --> 1:25:45.720 Yeah, And if any of the people listening want to 1:25:45.800 --> 1:25:48.920 learn sim of those tools, yeah, or you help with 1:25:49.160 --> 1:25:51.640 education and training, or just want to make connections at 1:25:51.640 --> 1:25:54.679 in roads with workers elsewhere, contact the coalition and independent 1:25:54.720 --> 1:25:56.719 husdents and seeing how we can build these bonds together, 1:25:56.760 --> 1:26:00.519 because I think that we will problem solve how to 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:04.200 defeat this regime one way or another. But I think 1:26:04.200 --> 1:26:07.840 that we, particularly in the independent union space, provide a 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:11.720 unique possibility for how this can happen because since we 1:26:11.760 --> 1:26:15.400 are not tied to larger established contracts. We're not tied 1:26:15.439 --> 1:26:18.559 to jurisdictional disputes, We're not tied to a lot of 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:21.559 the legacies of some of the larger unions, God bless them. 1:26:21.880 --> 1:26:24.639 We can create and fashion a labor movement that doesn't 1:26:24.680 --> 1:26:27.040 have to live by those rules. You know, if you 1:26:27.120 --> 1:26:29.240 imagine the idea of what it would look like to 1:26:29.280 --> 1:26:32.120 refound the CIO in the nineteen thirties, if you could 1:26:32.240 --> 1:26:35.559 imagine the worst aspects of the labor movement and excising them, 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:37.479 and what is the best aspects of labor movement that 1:26:37.479 --> 1:26:40.240 you would want to see, we can create that together today. 1:26:40.800 --> 1:26:42.840 And today it takes the form of standing up in 1:26:42.880 --> 1:26:46.479 solidarity with LELO and farm Workers Union up northern Washington, 1:26:46.600 --> 1:26:48.920 not because we get anything from it, not because it's easy, 1:26:49.120 --> 1:26:52.200 but precisely because it is difficult, and precisely because it 1:26:52.280 --> 1:26:55.120 is a moral compulsion on us to take action today 1:26:55.160 --> 1:26:57.120 for it. We don't have to wait for anyone to 1:26:57.120 --> 1:26:59.000 tell us what to do. As part of an independent 1:26:59.080 --> 1:27:01.760 labor movement, we get to decide our future and our faith, 1:27:01.800 --> 1:27:03.280 and we get to decide our struggles. 1:27:03.439 --> 1:27:05.720 Yeah, and if and when we beat them here, we 1:27:05.760 --> 1:27:07.600 can beat them today. We can beat them tomorrow. We 1:27:07.600 --> 1:27:10.960 can beat the next day, and one day you know 1:27:11.120 --> 1:27:13.400 we will. We will have one, one victory too many 1:27:13.439 --> 1:27:15.639 for them to hold onto power. And that's the only 1:27:15.680 --> 1:27:16.160 way forward. 1:27:16.400 --> 1:27:19.960 Absolutely, fascism wants you to believe in a nihilistic perspective 1:27:20.000 --> 1:27:21.760 of the world. They want you to believe in which 1:27:21.760 --> 1:27:23.600 it is hopeless to fight back. They want you to 1:27:23.600 --> 1:27:27.280 believe just doom scroll forever and don't take any action 1:27:27.400 --> 1:27:31.640 and focus on yourselves and navel gaze indefinitely. No. No. The 1:27:31.680 --> 1:27:33.439 way that you find out the kind of person that 1:27:33.479 --> 1:27:35.240 you are, and the way that you build the kind 1:27:35.240 --> 1:27:37.400 of future that you want for yourselves or families, for 1:27:37.439 --> 1:27:39.559 your communities, for the people that you don't even know 1:27:39.600 --> 1:27:41.280 and never will meet, what you want a good life 1:27:41.280 --> 1:27:43.040 for them. The way that you do that is you 1:27:43.080 --> 1:27:46.240 take action. Now, you start organizing, You do what you can, 1:27:46.600 --> 1:27:49.040 you build what you can. That's how we do this. 1:27:49.439 --> 1:27:51.439 Like we said earlier, they want you to believe that 1:27:51.520 --> 1:27:53.880 the fighter is already over, the history has already been written. 1:27:54.479 --> 1:27:57.280 They only say that because they know it's not true. Yep, 1:27:57.800 --> 1:28:00.559 and me and other people who talk like this, who 1:28:00.560 --> 1:28:03.479 are as optimistic and as hopeful and is fight. Ready. 1:28:03.960 --> 1:28:06.439 We don't believe this out of nowhere. We believe this 1:28:06.560 --> 1:28:09.040 because we truly do see that the better world is 1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:10.120 possible if we fight. 1:28:10.560 --> 1:28:13.360 Yeah, and I think that's a spectacular place to end. Mark, 1:28:13.439 --> 1:28:15.280 thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:18.519 thank you, and everyone else who's listening to this, go 1:28:18.600 --> 1:28:19.120 out and fight. 1:28:40.000 --> 1:28:43.040 Hello, and welcome to It could happen here. I want 1:28:43.040 --> 1:28:46.920 you to imagine a world where everyone shared a second language, 1:28:47.520 --> 1:28:50.519 not because of imperial conquest, but out of a shared 1:28:50.560 --> 1:28:56.680 desire for unity and understanding. That was the duram behind Esperanto, 1:28:56.840 --> 1:29:01.400 a constructed language designed to be the basis for global bilingualism. 1:29:01.960 --> 1:29:04.720 Long before I learned anything about anarchism, I spent some 1:29:04.800 --> 1:29:08.200 time trying to learn Esperanto. It has shown up on 1:29:08.280 --> 1:29:10.680 my due lingo one day, and it seems like such 1:29:10.720 --> 1:29:14.040 a fascinating and simple project to pick up. I was 1:29:14.120 --> 1:29:17.360 enamored with the philosophy behind it, so I generally spent 1:29:17.439 --> 1:29:19.439 a few months on and off trying to learn it. 1:29:20.400 --> 1:29:22.280 I was probably a decade ago at this point, so 1:29:22.280 --> 1:29:25.040 I don't remember too much about it, but the connection 1:29:25.200 --> 1:29:28.640 was there. And it's really because I've been exploring this 1:29:28.760 --> 1:29:31.679 topic for this episode that I ended up going back 1:29:31.720 --> 1:29:34.759 and dabbling in some of it again. I've learned recently 1:29:34.800 --> 1:29:39.440 this is actually somewhat of a connection between Esperanto and anarchism, 1:29:39.760 --> 1:29:42.880 so I stayed the time to explore the origins of Esperanto. 1:29:43.160 --> 1:29:47.840 It's anarchist connections, it's flaws and its future. My name 1:29:47.880 --> 1:29:50.720 is Andrew Sage, and I'm here once again. 1:29:50.840 --> 1:29:54.000 With its face James. Again, very excited for this one. 1:29:54.240 --> 1:29:56.240 Yes, you're familiar with Esperanto, right. 1:29:56.640 --> 1:29:58.280 Yeah, very familiar. I am. 1:29:58.640 --> 1:30:00.600 I wrote about it a little bit in my my 1:30:00.720 --> 1:30:05.439 first book and my PhD dissertation. Also, the last living 1:30:05.720 --> 1:30:08.280 person to participate in the Popular Olympics, which is what 1:30:08.400 --> 1:30:11.360 I wrote my book about, was an Esperantist like. Part 1:30:11.400 --> 1:30:15.080 of the project of the Popular Front in Catalonia was 1:30:15.120 --> 1:30:18.000 to bring people to diverstory sport, and then Esperanto was 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:20.000 going to be this thing that would, as you mentioned, 1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:21.519 like bridge the gaps between people. 1:30:21.640 --> 1:30:21.840 Right. 1:30:22.280 --> 1:30:25.280 Yes, it's a really inspiring project, and so I know 1:30:25.360 --> 1:30:28.080 you're probably gonna know all this information, but I do 1:30:28.160 --> 1:30:29.320 have to share it with the audience. 1:30:30.080 --> 1:30:34.559 Yeah, I'm excited. I never really did full run down Esperanto. 1:30:34.600 --> 1:30:36.679 It disappeared, and I was like, holy shit, that's cool. 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:38.000 So I'm going to learn a lot. 1:30:38.360 --> 1:30:38.599 Sure. 1:30:38.640 --> 1:30:38.720 So. 1:30:39.000 --> 1:30:42.400 Esperanto was first constructed in a little booklet in eighteen 1:30:42.400 --> 1:30:48.040 eighty seven by Polish Jewish ophthalmologist el El Salmonoff. According 1:30:48.080 --> 1:30:51.040 to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the name itself comes from the 1:30:51.080 --> 1:30:54.439 pseudonym he took on to publish the booklet. He called 1:30:54.520 --> 1:30:59.960 himself doctorro Esperanto, Esperanto meaning one who hopes and hope 1:31:00.080 --> 1:31:03.799 really analyzed the whole project. According to a BBC article 1:31:03.840 --> 1:31:07.479 written by Jose Luis Benarredonde, he lived as a Polish 1:31:07.560 --> 1:31:11.040 Jew in the multicultural Russian Empire in a time rife 1:31:11.040 --> 1:31:14.799 with racial and national conflict. He was trying to promote 1:31:14.840 --> 1:31:18.240 peace and understanding, and he saw an international language as 1:31:18.240 --> 1:31:20.760 a ways to do that, with a flag of green 1:31:20.800 --> 1:31:23.559 and white, the colors of hope and peace. For his efforts, 1:31:23.640 --> 1:31:27.920 Zamenhoff himself was nominated fourteen times for the Nobel Peace Prize. 1:31:28.560 --> 1:31:31.719 He genuine believed that if we all shared a common 1:31:31.800 --> 1:31:38.000 second language, quote, education, ideals, convictions, aims would be the 1:31:38.000 --> 1:31:40.800 same too, and all nations would be united in a 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:45.760 common brotherhood. End quote. Esperanto was created in a time 1:31:45.840 --> 1:31:48.920 when modernism was on the rise and the idea of 1:31:49.000 --> 1:31:52.360 rationality and science was being used to quote un quote 1:31:52.600 --> 1:31:56.480 optimize the world. When it was featured in Paris's Exposition 1:31:56.600 --> 1:32:00.400 Universal in nineteen hundred, the language caught on amongst the 1:32:00.439 --> 1:32:03.439 French intelligensia, who saw it as more optimal than the 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:08.400 messy and the logical realm of natural languages. Because it 1:32:08.400 --> 1:32:11.760 was so easy, all words and sentences being built from 1:32:11.880 --> 1:32:14.600 sixteen basic rules that could fit on a paper, and 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:17.840 the language lacks the confusing exceptions and special rules of 1:32:17.880 --> 1:32:21.320 other languages, it was once seen as the language of 1:32:21.360 --> 1:32:25.160 the future. Esperanto made its full fledged public debut in 1:32:25.280 --> 1:32:29.200 nineteen oh five when seven Hoff published The Fundamental Esperanto, 1:32:29.600 --> 1:32:33.200 which laid down the basic principles of languages structure and formation. 1:32:34.400 --> 1:32:38.639 Esperanto was designed to be simple, logical, and accessible, drawn 1:32:38.640 --> 1:32:41.720 from the influence of Romance, Germanic and Slavic languages and 1:32:41.760 --> 1:32:46.120 its construction. The orthography is phonetic, so all the words 1:32:46.120 --> 1:32:49.880 are spelled as pronounced, and the grammar is so straightforward. 1:32:49.960 --> 1:32:55.160 There's a consistent word ending for nouns. Pluralization adjectives and verbs. 1:32:56.120 --> 1:33:00.280 But although simple, it can couldvey complexity. A lot of 1:33:00.280 --> 1:33:04.160 suffixes you can add to give degrees of meaning, and 1:33:04.200 --> 1:33:07.840 there's room for compound words too. It's European focus to 1:33:07.960 --> 1:33:10.840 be the target of criticism later on, but it actually 1:33:10.920 --> 1:33:14.040 ended up being picked up in some unusual places. Anyway, 1:33:15.320 --> 1:33:19.559 Zamenhoff translated literature and wrote original verse, and after years 1:33:19.600 --> 1:33:22.599 of effort, there were speakers to be found across Europe, 1:33:22.840 --> 1:33:25.559 the Americas, China, and Japan. 1:33:26.000 --> 1:33:26.479 Interesting. 1:33:27.080 --> 1:33:30.839 By nineteen oh eight, the Universala Esperanto Associo was founded, 1:33:31.080 --> 1:33:34.200 and it can now find members in eighty three countries worldwide. 1:33:34.960 --> 1:33:39.200 Today there's also fifty national Esperanto associations and twenty two 1:33:39.360 --> 1:33:43.599 international professional associations that use Esperanto. There's an annual World 1:33:43.680 --> 1:33:47.879 Esperanto Congress and more than one hundred periodicals published in Esperanto. 1:33:48.800 --> 1:33:52.040 Estimates range widely in terms of how many people speak 1:33:52.120 --> 1:33:55.640 Esperanto today. They are apparently a handful of native speakers, 1:33:55.720 --> 1:33:59.479 folks who were raised speaking Esperanto. Oh wow, yeah, it's 1:33:59.520 --> 1:34:03.200 really really really cool. Yeah, but L two speakers are 1:34:03.400 --> 1:34:06.360 somewhere between thirty eight thousand l to being you know, 1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:10.040 second language speakers are somewhere between thirty eight thousand to 1:34:10.200 --> 1:34:15.400 two million. According to Wilfith's article on Esperanto and anarchism. 1:34:15.640 --> 1:34:19.000 There are tens of thousands of books in Esperanto and 1:34:19.080 --> 1:34:23.800 several hundred, mostly swam periodicals that appear regularly. Yeah Party 1:34:23.840 --> 1:34:26.760 a day passes about international meetings such as those of 1:34:26.800 --> 1:34:31.640 specialized organizations, conferences, youth get togethers, seminars, group holidays, and 1:34:31.720 --> 1:34:35.840 regional meetings. There are several radio stations that broadcast programs 1:34:35.840 --> 1:34:39.479 in Esperanto, and Esperanto has even been used by couples 1:34:39.560 --> 1:34:41.960 of different origins as a family language. 1:34:42.640 --> 1:34:44.080 It's cool, funny enough. 1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:47.840 As with every language, even an aspiring universal language, it 1:34:47.840 --> 1:34:51.800 has since had its offshoots. I saw on Wikipedia that 1:34:52.000 --> 1:34:55.599 nearly a year after Samonoff's creation of Esperanto, in eighteen 1:34:55.640 --> 1:34:59.280 eighty eight, Dutch author J. Brachmann proposed a few changes 1:34:59.320 --> 1:35:02.280 to language, like combining the end in for the adjective 1:35:02.320 --> 1:35:06.400 and adverb, change in conjugations, introduce in more Latin roots, 1:35:06.479 --> 1:35:09.479 getting rid of the diacritics, and so on. This language 1:35:09.479 --> 1:35:12.880 would be called Mundolinko, and it was the first of 1:35:13.080 --> 1:35:17.600 many offshoots from Esperanto proper. Even Zamenhoff would try to 1:35:17.600 --> 1:35:19.920 reform the language at one point in eighteen ninety four, 1:35:20.240 --> 1:35:22.839 but it was rejected by the Esperanto community and eventually 1:35:22.880 --> 1:35:26.839 even himself. These reforms would later be used to develop Edo, 1:35:26.920 --> 1:35:31.240 another attempt at universal language, with far less success. I 1:35:31.280 --> 1:35:33.559 also learned theo Wikipedia there was an attempt to make 1:35:33.680 --> 1:35:39.799 Esperanto more complex by introducing Cherokee components called Policepo, created 1:35:39.800 --> 1:35:43.839 by a Native American activist named Billy ray Walden. Esperanto 1:35:43.880 --> 1:35:47.880 speakers continue to play the language in all sorts of ways. 1:35:47.880 --> 1:35:50.960 To this day. Esperanto is an evolved in language, and 1:35:51.040 --> 1:35:56.080 Samonhoff himself is honored as part of this global Esperanto culture. 1:35:56.800 --> 1:36:00.720 They celebrate his birthday the fifteenth of December, statues and 1:36:00.800 --> 1:36:04.400 streets and plaques remembering him worldwide, and even an asteroid 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:08.120 there's his name. At one point, according to the BBC article, 1:36:08.400 --> 1:36:11.160 there was an effort to establish an Esperanto speaking land 1:36:11.640 --> 1:36:14.479 called ami Kejo, which would have been a three point 1:36:14.520 --> 1:36:21.000 five square kilometer territory between the Netlands, Germany and France. Yeah. Nice, 1:36:21.479 --> 1:36:24.040 three point five square kilometers. 1:36:23.479 --> 1:36:27.479 Yeah, not huge, Yeah, it's like how big? Well, I know, 1:36:27.479 --> 1:36:29.759 we've got a few of those, like little ones in Europe, 1:36:29.800 --> 1:36:30.040 you know. 1:36:30.400 --> 1:36:32.000 Yeah, a couple of micro estates. It could have been 1:36:32.000 --> 1:36:35.679 another micro state, but the idea was very quickly squashed 1:36:35.680 --> 1:36:36.639 following World War One. 1:36:36.880 --> 1:36:38.960 Yeah, I know. This senatee. 1:36:39.080 --> 1:36:45.080 The Spanish Anarchosynthicalist Union was like in its first congress, 1:36:45.080 --> 1:36:47.360 like its foundational Congress. I supposed they were like, and 1:36:47.360 --> 1:36:49.920 everyone has to everyone should try and learn Esperanto, like 1:36:49.960 --> 1:36:53.200 that was one of their like the things that at 1:36:53.200 --> 1:36:56.439 the foundation of what became probably the most powerful anarchist 1:36:56.439 --> 1:36:57.479 movement the world's ever seen. 1:36:57.560 --> 1:36:59.479 They were like, also, this is a big thing. 1:36:59.760 --> 1:37:03.200 Yeah, yeah, Esperanto is really huge in the anarchist movement 1:37:03.240 --> 1:37:04.280 at a certain point. 1:37:04.479 --> 1:37:05.400 Yeah. 1:37:05.479 --> 1:37:08.599 But we're going to get to those connections soon enough. 1:37:18.880 --> 1:37:22.200 I want to bring up this other interesting story. There 1:37:22.240 --> 1:37:26.120 was actually an effort by esperantists, including a delegate from Iran, 1:37:26.800 --> 1:37:29.400 to get the language to become the official language of 1:37:29.439 --> 1:37:33.080 the League of Nations. But take one guess as to 1:37:33.160 --> 1:37:34.759 which country block that effort. 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:40.080 Was it one of the anglophone countries? No, oh, wow, 1:37:40.800 --> 1:37:41.280 the French. 1:37:41.360 --> 1:37:42.280 It was the French. 1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:46.360 Yeah, there is not a state more invested in its 1:37:46.439 --> 1:37:50.120 language than France. Indeed, they have laws I think about, 1:37:50.160 --> 1:37:53.599 like broadcasting music and dubbing films and things. 1:37:54.240 --> 1:37:59.479 Yeah, the French government seemingly hated Esperanto. At least according 1:37:59.479 --> 1:38:03.040 to the article on imp of the Diverse blog site, 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:07.360 they blocked its study in universities and public schools, and 1:38:07.720 --> 1:38:12.120 as the article quotes the opponents directly quote. On September tenth, 1:38:12.240 --> 1:38:15.080 nineteen twenty two, the New York Tribune ran a translation 1:38:15.840 --> 1:38:18.320 of a piece by the editor in chief of Limatin, 1:38:18.840 --> 1:38:24.400 Stefan Lausanne. Miss Lasan spent half his editorial writing about Esperanto. 1:38:24.960 --> 1:38:26.960 And I'm not going to do a French accent for 1:38:27.000 --> 1:38:30.599 this section, but just imagine, like the most French Frenchman 1:38:30.760 --> 1:38:35.559 reading this, that Finns or Albanians have fevered such a 1:38:35.600 --> 1:38:40.280 proper ganda is comprehensible. Their dialect has no chance of 1:38:40.280 --> 1:38:44.320 imposing itself on the universe. They need a second language 1:38:45.160 --> 1:38:48.559 just as well Esperanto as any other. But that French 1:38:48.600 --> 1:38:52.360 people or English or Germans could have let themselves be 1:38:52.439 --> 1:38:57.280 allured by this linguistic bolsheviser that is far more extraordinary. 1:38:57.960 --> 1:39:01.280 It is nevertheless a fact that Esperando, which was born 1:39:01.360 --> 1:39:04.360 twenty five years ago and ought to have died through ridicule, 1:39:04.880 --> 1:39:08.920 continues to have disciples in Europe. Every year in a 1:39:08.920 --> 1:39:11.880 different capital they hold a congress at which they are 1:39:11.880 --> 1:39:14.599 not very numerous, but where they make a great noise. 1:39:15.280 --> 1:39:18.080 They get so excited that quite recently the Minister of 1:39:18.080 --> 1:39:20.920 Public Instruction had to address a circular to all the 1:39:20.960 --> 1:39:25.320 French educational resorts to warn them against the danger of Esperanto. 1:39:27.320 --> 1:39:30.080 An article in the Washington Herald on that same day 1:39:30.439 --> 1:39:33.240 explained the danger, at least according to the Ministry of 1:39:33.360 --> 1:39:37.320 Public Instruction. The reason for this order, according to Sittin 1:39:37.360 --> 1:39:39.960 school teachers, is that teaching of a language as easy 1:39:39.960 --> 1:39:43.640 as Esperanto endangers the existence of the French language and 1:39:43.720 --> 1:39:47.280 thus the national solidarity of the country. They contend that 1:39:47.400 --> 1:39:50.360 children will nationally take to an easy language as Esperanto, 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:53.600 and in that time French and English would perish, and 1:39:53.640 --> 1:39:57.760 that the literary standard of the world would be debased. Furthermore, 1:39:58.120 --> 1:40:01.040 they argue that a national language plays a predominant part 1:40:01.120 --> 1:40:04.360 in maintaining national unity, and points to Poland and the 1:40:04.439 --> 1:40:08.240 Rain as examples. Esperanto is an artificial language of no 1:40:08.439 --> 1:40:11.400 real merit right to one professor, it has no very 1:40:11.439 --> 1:40:14.120 definite origin and what it aims to draw the scattered 1:40:14.160 --> 1:40:16.800 people of the world together, does it doth rather tend 1:40:16.840 --> 1:40:19.679 to de nationalization? End quote? 1:40:20.800 --> 1:40:24.160 They're not wrong, Like France is the language if you 1:40:24.200 --> 1:40:26.360 read like a peasants into Frenchman is kind of the 1:40:26.360 --> 1:40:29.439 classic work on like French nationalization. But like, in order 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:32.360 to make people French, they did have to suppress like 1:40:32.479 --> 1:40:36.479 Basque and Breton and Catalan and other languages, right, and 1:40:36.800 --> 1:40:39.040 make people go to schools where they learned French and 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:41.000 conceived of themselves as French. 1:40:41.000 --> 1:40:41.760 As a result of that. 1:40:42.640 --> 1:40:47.400 Yeah, their imposition of DaShan identity was perhaps among the 1:40:47.439 --> 1:40:50.920 most successful in the world. Yeah, in terms of its 1:40:51.040 --> 1:40:53.880 earliness and its consistent enforcement. 1:40:54.880 --> 1:40:58.880 It shows like nations are always projects of the bourgeoisie, right, Like, 1:40:58.960 --> 1:41:01.160 at least I would argue that, and so a lot 1:41:01.160 --> 1:41:04.960 of other people. But like the French example is one 1:41:05.000 --> 1:41:07.360 where we can see it more clearly than others. Like 1:41:07.439 --> 1:41:10.240 it's a state and specifically like a certain class within 1:41:10.280 --> 1:41:15.160 the state project to enforce and continue to perpetuate this 1:41:15.280 --> 1:41:16.120 narrative of nation. 1:41:17.520 --> 1:41:21.320 And you know, they weren't the only enemies of Esperanto 1:41:21.760 --> 1:41:24.679 and do you know that's saying judged me by my enemies? 1:41:26.080 --> 1:41:26.720 Yeah? Who else? 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:31.719 We got Nazi Germany, Francoist Spain, and the Soviet Union 1:41:32.200 --> 1:41:33.360 also heated. 1:41:33.280 --> 1:41:35.240 Esperanto gets cooler with everyone. 1:41:35.479 --> 1:41:39.400 The Nazis they were nationalists, and the Zavenhoff was Jewish. 1:41:40.120 --> 1:41:43.759 So his family was actually targeted and the language was banned, 1:41:44.080 --> 1:41:47.120 and Esperantis were targeted and put in camps during the Holocaust, 1:41:47.640 --> 1:41:49.559 which is really tragic. 1:41:49.600 --> 1:41:50.400 Yeah, pretty fucked. 1:41:50.560 --> 1:41:55.200 Yeah, his whole family was heavily targeted by Nati Germany. 1:41:55.680 --> 1:42:01.360 Franco associated Esperanto with anti nationalism and anarchism, which true. 1:42:01.560 --> 1:42:03.759 Yeah, he wasn't wrong, So it. 1:42:03.720 --> 1:42:08.000 Was targeted for a while. Yeah, and the Soviets, while 1:42:08.160 --> 1:42:13.120 originally recognizing Esperantists, eventually reversed that policy under Stalin during 1:42:13.160 --> 1:42:18.960 the Great Purge and executed exiled or gulagd Esperantists. And 1:42:19.000 --> 1:42:22.240 as you can imagine, all that repression all at once 1:42:22.600 --> 1:42:27.720 kind of killed Esperanto's momentum. Today, despite its goal of 1:42:27.760 --> 1:42:32.000 being a truly international language, Esperanto's global reach remains une fun. 1:42:32.880 --> 1:42:35.360 While it has made some strides in recent years, it's 1:42:35.360 --> 1:42:39.439 still underrepresented in many parts of Africa and Asia. The 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:42.719 majority of Esperanto speakers today are in Europe. Those development 1:42:42.800 --> 1:42:46.120 outside of Europe deserves some attention, as Esperanto managed to 1:42:46.200 --> 1:42:50.519 levermark in China, Iran, Togo and the Democratic Republic of Congo. 1:42:51.439 --> 1:42:53.479 But the response to Esperanto historically you should give you 1:42:53.479 --> 1:42:57.080 an indication as to how anarchists must have felt about Esperanto. 1:42:57.960 --> 1:43:02.240 As an internationalist or anti nationalist movement. Anarchism was very 1:43:02.280 --> 1:43:05.759 supportive of the Esperanto project won. Running through the timeline 1:43:05.840 --> 1:43:09.680 could to see Wilfirth's Esperanto and Anarchism. One of the 1:43:09.720 --> 1:43:12.679 earliest anarchist Esperanto groups was founded in Stockholm in nineteen 1:43:12.720 --> 1:43:15.640 oh five. The same year, the anarchist Paul up with 1:43:15.680 --> 1:43:19.519 a Lot founded the monthly magazine Esperanto. Similar groups soon 1:43:19.560 --> 1:43:23.559 emerged in Bulgaria, China and other countries. In nineteen oh six, 1:43:23.840 --> 1:43:29.920 anarchists anarchist Sinicolis founded an international association Paco Libreco Peace Freedom, 1:43:30.320 --> 1:43:35.160 which published the Internacia Socia Review. By nineteen ten, Paco 1:43:35.160 --> 1:43:39.639 Libreco merged with Esperantista Labarri Staro to form Liberiga Stillo 1:43:39.960 --> 1:43:45.040 star Liberation, strengthening anarchist Esperanto networks. The nineteen oh seven 1:43:45.080 --> 1:43:48.800 International Anarchist Congress in Amsterdam formally addressed the role of 1:43:48.920 --> 1:43:53.519 Esperanto in international communication. Subsequent anarchist congresses continue to pass 1:43:53.560 --> 1:43:58.040 resolutions advocating for Esperanto's use within the movement. By nineteen fourteen, 1:43:58.320 --> 1:44:02.960 these anarchist esperantist organizations had published extensive revolutionary literature, including 1:44:03.000 --> 1:44:07.919 anarchist texts in Esperanto. Around this time, correspondence between European 1:44:08.000 --> 1:44:13.640 and Japanese anarchists became more active, facilitated by Esperanto. In Prague, 1:44:13.760 --> 1:44:19.000 Eugene Adam proposed the formation of Senassa Associo Tutmunda the 1:44:19.120 --> 1:44:24.120 SAT or the World in National Association. Unlike other Esperanto associations, 1:44:24.920 --> 1:44:29.880 SAT rejected nationalism wholesale and sought to create a transnational 1:44:30.280 --> 1:44:34.439 class conscious workers movement. To quote why is there an 1:44:34.520 --> 1:44:38.639 Esperanto Workers Movement by Gary Michel, SAT was not meant 1:44:38.640 --> 1:44:41.320 to usurp the role of political parties by engaging in 1:44:41.360 --> 1:44:44.920 political struggles directly, but was to be a cultural association 1:44:45.200 --> 1:44:48.639 engaged in workers education, one that would help to break 1:44:48.640 --> 1:44:52.120 down national and ethnic barriers between workers by involving them 1:44:52.160 --> 1:44:56.880 in practical collective activity, bringing workers into contact, freeing them 1:44:56.920 --> 1:45:01.280 from the shackles of nationalism. SAT's idea, and especially the 1:45:01.360 --> 1:45:04.719 ideas of its a nationalist faction, were an early statement 1:45:04.760 --> 1:45:06.600 of an idea that has more recently come to be 1:45:06.640 --> 1:45:11.320 known as globalization from below. So in August nineteen twenty one, 1:45:11.520 --> 1:45:14.559 seventy nine workers from fifteen countries gathered in Prague to 1:45:14.760 --> 1:45:19.080 formally established SAT. By nineteen twenty nine to nineteen thirty 1:45:19.520 --> 1:45:22.320 SAT had grown to six five hundred and twenty four 1:45:22.320 --> 1:45:27.559 members across forty two countries, reaching its peak influence. The 1:45:27.680 --> 1:45:31.080 use of Esperanto flourished in German workers' movements between nineteen 1:45:31.120 --> 1:45:34.559 twenty and nineteen thirty three. By nineteen thirty two, the 1:45:34.600 --> 1:45:38.120 German Workers Esperanto League had four thousand members, leading to 1:45:38.240 --> 1:45:42.879 Esperanto being called the Workers Latin. But as you can imagine, 1:45:42.880 --> 1:45:45.040 this was not to last. By the time Hitler came 1:45:45.080 --> 1:45:49.280 into power. The Scientific Anarchist Library of the International Language 1:45:49.360 --> 1:45:53.120 or ISAB, was founded in the USSR in nineteen twenty three, 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:56.920 published in anarchist works by Kropotkin and Ann Borivoi in Esperanto. 1:45:57.360 --> 1:46:01.280 This also would not last. The Great Purge The Berlin 1:46:01.320 --> 1:46:04.160 group of anarchist cyniclist esperantists created the Second Congress of 1:46:04.160 --> 1:46:07.280 the International Workers Association in Amsterdam in nineteen twenty five 1:46:07.680 --> 1:46:10.519 and reported that Esperanto had become so integrated into their 1:46:10.560 --> 1:46:15.360 movement that an international libertarian Esperantist organization had formed. This 1:46:15.600 --> 1:46:19.840 likely referred to the TLEs the World League of Steepless Esperantists, 1:46:20.040 --> 1:46:23.680 which later merged with SAT. Esperanto was also popping off 1:46:23.720 --> 1:46:29.160 amongst anarchists and socialists in Korea, China, and Japan. Liushifu, 1:46:29.439 --> 1:46:33.000 a key figure in Chinese anarchism, began publishing La Voucho 1:46:33.600 --> 1:46:37.000 de la Popolo, The Voice of the People in nineteen thirteen, 1:46:37.280 --> 1:46:41.400 the first anarchist periodical in China. His work relied heavily 1:46:41.400 --> 1:46:45.960 on information from Internacia Socia Review and helped popularize esperanto 1:46:46.040 --> 1:46:49.519 in China. Japanese anarchists and socialists, as I mentioned, were 1:46:49.600 --> 1:46:53.439 among the earliest esperantists in the country, but faced heavy 1:46:53.600 --> 1:46:58.639 persecution and sadly between imperial Japan, Francoist Spain, Nazi Germany, 1:46:58.640 --> 1:47:01.920 and Stalinist Russia. The rise of tatalitarian regimes lead into 1:47:01.960 --> 1:47:06.679 World War II, largely suppressed the anarchist esperanto movement. After 1:47:06.720 --> 1:47:09.479 the war, the Paris Anarchist Esperanto group was the first 1:47:09.520 --> 1:47:13.760 to resume organized work, launching the publication sen Santano in 1:47:13.840 --> 1:47:18.919 nineteen forty six. Most anarchist Esperantists have since been organized 1:47:18.960 --> 1:47:23.000 within SAT, with an anarchist faction maintaining its autonomy. In 1:47:23.080 --> 1:47:27.680 nineteen sixty nine, this faction began publishing the Liberal Sana Bultano, 1:47:28.120 --> 1:47:31.280 later a day in the Liberate Sana Liguillo. By nineteen 1:47:31.360 --> 1:47:34.839 ninety seven, SAT membership had dwindled to fewer than fifteen 1:47:34.960 --> 1:47:39.080 hundred members. The initial radical vision of SAT was weakened 1:47:39.120 --> 1:47:41.920 by political shifts and the growing dominance of English as 1:47:41.920 --> 1:47:45.839 a global lingua franca. Daily separation between SAT and mainstream 1:47:45.920 --> 1:47:50.080 Esperanto organizations was a response to bourgeois political neutrality, but 1:47:50.160 --> 1:47:53.559 it also contributed to its marginalization, and today the anarchist 1:47:53.640 --> 1:48:07.760 esperanto movement exists largely as a niche within SAT. So 1:48:08.400 --> 1:48:12.360 what can we say about the role of Esperanto today. Well. 1:48:12.720 --> 1:48:14.600 One of the more interesting currents I found in the 1:48:14.720 --> 1:48:19.439 esperanto community mentioned by Firth is Raumismo, a philosophy named 1:48:19.439 --> 1:48:23.080 after the Finnish city of Rauma, where a youth congress 1:48:23.080 --> 1:48:28.599 in nineteen eighty helped define this approach. Braumismo views Esperanto 1:48:28.640 --> 1:48:32.840 speakers as a kind of linguistic diaspora, a cultural group 1:48:32.840 --> 1:48:35.760 bound together by a shared language rather than a national identity. 1:48:36.439 --> 1:48:39.560 Instead of focusing on making Esperanto a universal second language, 1:48:40.080 --> 1:48:44.360 raumistoge embraced it as just one language among many, valuing 1:48:44.400 --> 1:48:48.719 its use in literature, culture and everyday communication without any 1:48:48.760 --> 1:48:52.880 grand ideological ambitions. But it's possible Esperanto who can still 1:48:52.920 --> 1:48:55.599 play a role in facilities in exchange and collaboration between 1:48:55.640 --> 1:48:59.559 people of different linguistic backgrounds. A German anarchist once lamented 1:48:59.560 --> 1:49:04.040 the barrier international understanding quoted in food article. More or 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:06.960 less in isolation from one another, we work and fight 1:49:07.080 --> 1:49:10.280 without engaging in exchange about our victories and defeats, and 1:49:10.320 --> 1:49:14.120 with thoughts supporting and encouraging one another. Intensifying contact above 1:49:14.160 --> 1:49:16.639 the regional level with people having similar ideas and aims 1:49:16.800 --> 1:49:19.519 should be an important component of our work in order 1:49:19.520 --> 1:49:24.400 to make effective active solidarity possible quote. And that's the trouble. 1:49:24.439 --> 1:49:29.920 Even today. Linguistic barriers hinder international cooperation groups struggle to 1:49:29.960 --> 1:49:36.040 maintain foreign language correspondence, organize multilingual meetings, or find interpreters. Instead, 1:49:36.120 --> 1:49:39.200 communication tends to rely on chance. You know, someone in 1:49:39.240 --> 1:49:42.320 a group happens to speak a certain language that determines 1:49:42.320 --> 1:49:45.600 who they can connect with. But when those key individuals 1:49:45.680 --> 1:49:49.360 move on, those connections can have falling apart. So I 1:49:49.360 --> 1:49:52.080 get the appeal, I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial for 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:55.640 these movements and for any interest group working across language barriers, 1:49:55.920 --> 1:49:58.559 to have a relatively easy to learn, politically neutral means 1:49:58.560 --> 1:50:02.720 of communication. Major languages like English, Spanish or French don't 1:50:02.720 --> 1:50:06.360 fully solve the problem, as they come with historical baggage 1:50:06.479 --> 1:50:11.240 and imbalances influency levels. Esperanto, on the other hand, provides 1:50:11.280 --> 1:50:14.920 a more equitable solution because everybody is from this starts 1:50:14.920 --> 1:50:17.400 and from the same point. Since it isn't tied to 1:50:17.439 --> 1:50:20.800 any one nation, it avoids the poodynamics that arise when 1:50:20.840 --> 1:50:23.640 non native speakers must conformed to the linguistic norms of 1:50:23.680 --> 1:50:28.160 dominant cultures. Unlike English, which often privileges native speakers and 1:50:28.240 --> 1:50:32.439 places others as perpetual learners, Esperanto fosters a more level 1:50:32.600 --> 1:50:36.240 playin field. English is treated like a global lingua franca 1:50:36.360 --> 1:50:39.240 right now, But a lot of people leave school without 1:50:39.280 --> 1:50:42.439 ever developing an affluency to navigate an English dominated world, 1:50:43.200 --> 1:50:47.960 and English is not the easiest language to learn. Esperanto, 1:50:48.560 --> 1:50:52.800 regardless of weather ever, becomes a global standard, offers an 1:50:52.840 --> 1:50:57.280 alternative path. It can help people overcome language learning anxieties, 1:50:57.680 --> 1:51:02.000 as particularly those who feel disempowered by educational systems, and 1:51:02.040 --> 1:51:05.559 it can inspire an interest in language itself. If you've 1:51:05.560 --> 1:51:07.720 ever met an Esperanto speaker, you know that they are 1:51:07.920 --> 1:51:13.280 very passionate about linguistics. More often than not, many of 1:51:13.320 --> 1:51:16.840 the speakers go on to study linguistics, language politics, or 1:51:16.840 --> 1:51:20.120 even lesser known languages. It's also a great way to 1:51:20.160 --> 1:51:25.200 develop translation skills in a friendly, cooperative environment. For monolingual 1:51:25.280 --> 1:51:29.280 English speakers, using Esperanto can be an eye open and experience. 1:51:29.880 --> 1:51:31.960 It puts them the shoes of those who never got 1:51:32.000 --> 1:51:35.800 to rely on their native language in international settings. Rather 1:51:35.800 --> 1:51:38.280 than view an Esperanto as a competitor to other languages, 1:51:38.920 --> 1:51:41.240 perhaps a more productive approach is to see it as 1:51:41.240 --> 1:51:45.280 a tool for promoting multi lingualism, cultural exchange, and a 1:51:45.280 --> 1:51:48.959 more cosmopolitan mindset within the Esperanto speaking in the community. 1:51:49.360 --> 1:51:52.960 Opinions on its future vary widely, but one thing is clear. 1:51:53.479 --> 1:51:56.760 The question of how we communicate across linguistic divides is 1:51:56.800 --> 1:52:02.519 still very much alive, and Esperanto offers but possible answer. However, 1:52:02.600 --> 1:52:06.520 as I alluded to Ilia, Esperanto is not without its critiques. 1:52:06.720 --> 1:52:09.439 As covered by Firth, Let's start with one of the 1:52:09.439 --> 1:52:14.120 most frequent critiques. Esperanto is an artificial language. Unlike the 1:52:14.120 --> 1:52:18.040 so called natural languages, which evolved organically over time, Esperanto 1:52:18.120 --> 1:52:22.240 was deliberately constructed. But here's the thing. Since the rise 1:52:22.280 --> 1:52:25.639 of the nation state, the line between natural and artificial 1:52:25.680 --> 1:52:30.960 languages has become increasingly blurry. Many national languages, like standard 1:52:31.040 --> 1:52:35.320 German or Standard French, have been shaped by deliberate standardization, 1:52:35.960 --> 1:52:40.919 legal regulations, and media influence. In that sense, every language 1:52:40.960 --> 1:52:45.719 is to some degree engineered. Authors, storytellers, and ordinary speakers 1:52:45.760 --> 1:52:50.120 continuously influenced language development, meaning that Esperanto is not as different. 1:52:50.240 --> 1:52:54.160 After all, it does continue to evolve. And here's where 1:52:54.200 --> 1:52:57.800 I think James Scott had a rather negative characterization of 1:52:57.920 --> 1:53:01.639 Esperanto as a purely high modess endeavor, as though all 1:53:01.760 --> 1:53:05.880 esperandos sought to make Esperanto, the official international language in 1:53:05.960 --> 1:53:08.400 se Meca State. He claims that Esperanto was created to 1:53:08.439 --> 1:53:12.040 replace the dialects and vernaculars of Europe, but such was 1:53:12.080 --> 1:53:14.720 never the case. It was always meant to be a 1:53:14.800 --> 1:53:18.519 language used to facilitate communication. There was more than one 1:53:18.560 --> 1:53:21.680 motivation of Esperando's use, and boil in such an exercise 1:53:21.720 --> 1:53:24.280 and human creativity, and attempted a connection down to just 1:53:24.560 --> 1:53:29.639 that status focus to me seems needlessly reductive. He also 1:53:29.680 --> 1:53:32.680 calls it quote an exceptionally thin language without any of 1:53:32.720 --> 1:53:37.080 the resonances, connotations, ready metaphors, literatures, oral histories, idioms, and 1:53:37.080 --> 1:53:40.519 traditions of practical use that any social embedded language already 1:53:40.520 --> 1:53:44.000 had end quote, which may be true when it began, 1:53:44.720 --> 1:53:47.320 but it's certainly not true now with over a century 1:53:47.400 --> 1:53:48.679 of use and evolution. 1:53:49.640 --> 1:53:49.880 Yeah. 1:53:51.240 --> 1:53:55.080 His analogies between Esperanto and plant cities also missed the 1:53:55.120 --> 1:53:58.120 mark for me, as Esperanto has clearly operated as a 1:53:58.160 --> 1:54:01.160 self organized and grassroots move on for most of its 1:54:01.160 --> 1:54:04.360 history and has never really received the back end of 1:54:04.400 --> 1:54:05.880 states or their enforcement. 1:54:06.439 --> 1:54:09.280 It's a weird angle from Scott because normally he'd advocate 1:54:09.320 --> 1:54:12.280 for like what he calls like the anarchist squint right like, 1:54:12.360 --> 1:54:16.800 and seeing history through a perspective of anarchistm I guess, 1:54:16.960 --> 1:54:19.519 like an anarchist lens. And I feel like, exactly this 1:54:19.640 --> 1:54:24.080 is very applicable with Esperanto, the only language which isn't 1:54:24.080 --> 1:54:28.000 inherently tied to any state or nation or ethnicity. 1:54:28.680 --> 1:54:32.360 Exactly when I saw that, I remember reading seeing like 1:54:32.360 --> 1:54:34.560 the State some years ago, and I've already the lost 1:54:34.600 --> 1:54:36.640 st to for that. But in doing the research for this, 1:54:36.760 --> 1:54:39.080 I ended up, you know, stumbling upon it again and 1:54:39.120 --> 1:54:42.640 I was like, hm, after reading the history, it's like 1:54:42.640 --> 1:54:43.720 this wasn't quite accurate. 1:54:44.280 --> 1:54:47.360 Yeah, yeah, that's a bum it. Yeah, generally like Scott 1:54:47.600 --> 1:54:52.919 me as well. Yeah, recently some listeners very kindly, James's 1:54:52.920 --> 1:54:54.760 got passed away out of this knit as I'm sure 1:54:54.760 --> 1:54:58.640 you know, I do, yes, But his library was donated 1:54:58.680 --> 1:55:01.040 to a local second hand bookshop and some folks that 1:55:01.720 --> 1:55:03.480 I asked online and they went and got me some 1:55:03.560 --> 1:55:05.760 books and sent them, which was really kind. So I 1:55:05.800 --> 1:55:06.920 have some of his books now. 1:55:07.080 --> 1:55:07.960 Oh that's nice. 1:55:08.160 --> 1:55:08.440 Yeah. 1:55:09.080 --> 1:55:13.000 There's another common claim about Esperanto, which is that it's eurocentric, 1:55:13.240 --> 1:55:18.400 right and linguistically. There's some truth to this Esperanto originated 1:55:18.440 --> 1:55:22.360 in Eastern Europe, and it still carries structural elements to example, 1:55:22.440 --> 1:55:26.320 Indo European languages. The majority of Esperanto speakers today are 1:55:26.320 --> 1:55:31.480 European and its vocabulary is largely drawn from European languages. However, 1:55:31.840 --> 1:55:35.720 critics who make this argument often suggest alternatives like English 1:55:35.840 --> 1:55:39.200 or Spanish languages that are just as if not more, 1:55:39.240 --> 1:55:43.520 Eurocentric in the historical and political reach. Esperanto, in contrast, 1:55:43.520 --> 1:55:46.560 has evolved through influence from non European languages as well, 1:55:46.960 --> 1:55:50.120 particularly through its development in China and Japan. It's a 1:55:50.120 --> 1:55:53.280 glassenative word formation, a feature more common in languages like 1:55:53.280 --> 1:55:57.120 Twokish or Japanese and what some call the Hungarian period 1:55:57.200 --> 1:56:01.400 of Esperanto's history. So while Esperanto soo has European roots, 1:56:01.880 --> 1:56:04.640 it's global evolution challenges the idea that it is exclusively 1:56:04.680 --> 1:56:10.480 European in character. Another critique is that Esperanto is sexist. 1:56:11.120 --> 1:56:14.200 The argument goes that because feminine forms are typically created 1:56:14.240 --> 1:56:18.280 by adding in to a base form like Laboristo worker 1:56:18.440 --> 1:56:23.000 become a Labristino female worker, the language assumes masculinity as 1:56:23.000 --> 1:56:26.560 a default, and while this is a valid concern, Esperanto 1:56:26.640 --> 1:56:29.640 differs from any European languages in a key way. It 1:56:29.720 --> 1:56:33.960 is not assigned grammatical gender to inanimate objects. A chair 1:56:34.040 --> 1:56:38.480 isn't arbitrarily feminine like in French, or masculine like in German. However, 1:56:38.600 --> 1:56:42.120 in practice, gender bias can still creep in the basic 1:56:42.160 --> 1:56:45.240 form of noun is often assumed to be masculine, even 1:56:45.240 --> 1:56:49.240 though Esperanto allows for explicitly male forms as well. Like 1:56:49.280 --> 1:56:53.600 in any language, reducing linguistic sexism in Esperanto requires conscious 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:55.760 effort in how people actually use it. 1:56:56.280 --> 1:56:58.160 Yeah, that's an interesting one. 1:56:58.240 --> 1:57:00.320 Like we see this in Spanish too, right, like with 1:57:00.360 --> 1:57:05.000 attempts to create like gender neutral forms the presumptive mask 1:57:05.080 --> 1:57:08.120 then or if you're addressing a mixed gender group then 1:57:08.160 --> 1:57:11.320 you would use the masculine. But like people who are 1:57:11.320 --> 1:57:13.880 first language Spanish speakers can correct me. I'm sure you 1:57:13.920 --> 1:57:16.560 will on the subreddit if you want to. So, like 1:57:16.680 --> 1:57:19.360 when I hear in English language media it's referred to 1:57:19.400 --> 1:57:22.760 as latin x but like that's kind of a word 1:57:22.760 --> 1:57:24.880 that I struggle to say in Spanish, like it Latin 1:57:24.880 --> 1:57:26.600 ekie or like is it latiniques? 1:57:27.000 --> 1:57:28.520 And so there's this very kind of. 1:57:29.400 --> 1:57:34.400 Clumsy gender neutral form, which seems to be easier to 1:57:34.400 --> 1:57:35.680 say in English and Spanish. 1:57:35.760 --> 1:57:39.440 Yeah, I've seen Latin used in some circles. 1:57:39.560 --> 1:57:41.520 Yeah, Latine, Latine. 1:57:41.920 --> 1:57:42.320 Yeah. 1:57:42.440 --> 1:57:45.360 When I speak to non binary people in Spanish, that's 1:57:45.360 --> 1:57:50.040 what they prefer to use. Of this relatively small sample size, 1:57:50.280 --> 1:57:53.040 given that there are probably millions of non binary Spanish 1:57:53.040 --> 1:57:55.280 speaking people, I haven't obviously spoken to all or most 1:57:55.320 --> 1:57:58.320 of them, but like, it's very interesting to see this. 1:57:58.400 --> 1:58:01.040 Like outside critique of the language seems to also ignore 1:58:01.080 --> 1:58:04.520 an inside movement within people who are Spanish first language 1:58:04.520 --> 1:58:09.360 speakers to create a organic, like gender neutral form, yeah, 1:58:09.440 --> 1:58:12.400 which could also happen in any language, right, Like, just 1:58:12.440 --> 1:58:15.480 because Esperanto has a certain form doesn't mean that people 1:58:15.520 --> 1:58:18.680 within that language who don't feel represented by them couldn't 1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:22.600 create forms within that language better represent them exactly. And 1:58:22.600 --> 1:58:25.080 it's easier because you don't have like a government telling 1:58:25.120 --> 1:58:28.120 you you can't use it or whatever exactly exactly. 1:58:28.240 --> 1:58:31.840 Esperanto is and continues to be a grassroots movement, and 1:58:32.320 --> 1:58:34.280 that has actually been a subject of critique for some. 1:58:35.040 --> 1:58:37.160 You know, perhaps one of the biggest critiques for Esperando 1:58:37.320 --> 1:58:39.720 is that it never achieved its original goal of becoming 1:58:39.760 --> 1:58:44.200 a universal second language. Zamenhoffit's created envisioned the world with 1:58:44.320 --> 1:58:49.320 Esperanto would bridge linguistic divides, but for many learner language 1:58:49.360 --> 1:58:53.840 that relatively few people spoke simply wasn't practical. But the 1:58:53.920 --> 1:58:57.560 rise of the Internet changed the game for Esperanto. What 1:58:57.760 --> 1:59:00.000 was once difficult to learn and use daily has become 1:59:00.200 --> 1:59:03.480 far more accessible. For example, Esperanto is actually one of 1:59:03.480 --> 1:59:08.160 the most overrepresented languages on the Internet. The Esperanto Wikipedia 1:59:08.280 --> 1:59:11.520 has around two hundred and forty thousand articles, putting it 1:59:11.560 --> 1:59:13.840 in the same league as languages spoken by tens of 1:59:13.880 --> 1:59:18.440 millions of people, like Turkish and Korean. Google and Facebook 1:59:18.480 --> 1:59:21.520 have offered Esperanto versions of their platforms for years, and 1:59:21.600 --> 1:59:24.560 language learning services like due Lingo have helped introduce it 1:59:24.560 --> 1:59:28.240 to a new generation of learners like myself. In fact, 1:59:28.320 --> 1:59:30.760 the people who developed Esperanto courses for due Lingo did 1:59:30.840 --> 1:59:34.520 so voluntarily, simply because they believed in the languages potential. 1:59:35.720 --> 1:59:39.280 Esperanto has fostered a unique online community, and there's even 1:59:39.280 --> 1:59:43.600 a free hospitality network called Pasporta Servo where Esperanto speakers 1:59:43.640 --> 1:59:47.000 can stay with each other around the world, no money required, 1:59:47.560 --> 1:59:50.879 just a shared language and a common philosophy of global connection. 1:59:51.920 --> 1:59:55.880 Not everyone learns Esperanto for the same reasons. Some people 1:59:55.920 --> 1:59:59.480 seek intellectual challenge, some want a sense of unique community, 1:59:59.760 --> 2:00:03.520 and others are drawn to its political neutrality. As communications 2:00:03.560 --> 2:00:07.160 lecturer Sara Marino points out in the BBC article, people 2:00:07.160 --> 2:00:11.600 engage in Esperanto for many different motivations, whether it's personal fulfillment, 2:00:11.920 --> 2:00:15.760 social inclusion, civic engagement, or just the simple joy of 2:00:15.840 --> 2:00:19.000 learning a new language. It's important and not to reduce 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:22.800 Esperanto learners to a stereotype. Their reasons for participating are 2:00:22.840 --> 2:00:27.680 as diverse as the language itself. So where does Esperanto 2:00:27.760 --> 2:00:31.560 stand today? It may never replace English as the global 2:00:31.600 --> 2:00:35.560 lingui franca, but perhaps there was never the point. Instead, 2:00:35.800 --> 2:00:39.200 it serves as a tool for promoting bilingualism, foster and 2:00:39.240 --> 2:00:43.640 cross cultural connections, and encouraging people to think differently about 2:00:43.800 --> 2:00:48.520 language itself. And I think that is worthy of its 2:00:48.520 --> 2:00:52.400 own reward. That's what I have for today, or power 2:00:52.480 --> 2:00:54.040 to all the people. Peace. 2:01:16.920 --> 2:01:20.360 This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly 2:01:20.440 --> 2:01:23.360 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 2:01:23.360 --> 2:01:25.680 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today 2:01:26.040 --> 2:01:29.280 I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. 2:01:29.920 --> 2:01:32.520 This week we're covering the week of April third to 2:01:32.680 --> 2:01:38.600 April ninth. We have recovered from the liberation day, fully liberated, 2:01:39.080 --> 2:01:41.720 and now the economy is back to normal. 2:01:42.160 --> 2:01:49.080 Right, Yes, everything's really good. Everyone's four oh one k's 2:01:49.280 --> 2:01:53.120 have been normal and stable and stable and stable. That's 2:01:53.120 --> 2:01:53.840 what's important. 2:01:54.320 --> 2:01:55.360 Just line go up. 2:01:55.440 --> 2:01:58.800 The economy runs from stability. I mean one of the 2:01:58.800 --> 2:02:01.480 things the line did was go up. So, yeah, the 2:02:01.880 --> 2:02:06.160 line's gone. Why should anyone complain? Yeah, line's going in 2:02:06.200 --> 2:02:09.280 a few different directions this week. Among the different directions 2:02:09.320 --> 2:02:12.360 the line went up, was you know a portion of 2:02:12.360 --> 2:02:12.840 that time. 2:02:13.000 --> 2:02:13.720 Yes, yeah. 2:02:14.360 --> 2:02:16.640 A direction that hasn't gone is left. I guess which 2:02:17.120 --> 2:02:18.520 you know we're waiting for that one. 2:02:18.560 --> 2:02:21.800 And related news, a dead cat can bounce. I don't 2:02:21.840 --> 2:02:24.400 know why they picked the cat for the dead animal 2:02:24.480 --> 2:02:27.320 to bounce to refer to that stock market there. 2:02:27.480 --> 2:02:29.280 But I think this is a term that's new to Garrison, 2:02:29.400 --> 2:02:31.240 just judging by the facial expression. 2:02:31.400 --> 2:02:33.440 Yeah, you don't know what that is. 2:02:34.120 --> 2:02:37.840 So basically, when when a stock price for a company 2:02:37.920 --> 2:02:41.040 or whatever collapses right, there will generally be it will 2:02:41.360 --> 2:02:43.920 straight a line down and then it will bump back 2:02:44.000 --> 2:02:46.440 up and it will look like it's rallying. But this 2:02:46.720 --> 2:02:49.040 isn't generally a rally. What it is is that when 2:02:49.080 --> 2:02:52.320 people like short a stock, there's a point at which 2:02:52.360 --> 2:02:56.960 they have to like buy back the share like shares, 2:02:57.040 --> 2:03:00.640 and that artificially inflates it briefly, but for it then 2:03:00.760 --> 2:03:03.520 begins to decline again. So it's not a real it's 2:03:03.560 --> 2:03:06.560 the result of how short selling works that there has 2:03:06.600 --> 2:03:08.680 to be this thing that makes it temporarily look like 2:03:08.720 --> 2:03:10.880 it's rallying, but that that's really not what's happening. 2:03:10.920 --> 2:03:12.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with this concept. 2:03:13.440 --> 2:03:15.520 And they call it a dead cat. It's referred to 2:03:15.560 --> 2:03:16.400 as a dead cat bounce. 2:03:16.440 --> 2:03:16.600 Yeh. 2:03:16.640 --> 2:03:18.800 I don't know why it's referred to as a dead 2:03:18.840 --> 2:03:19.880 cat bounce, but it is. 2:03:20.600 --> 2:03:24.680 Brocas and not normal people. Then why these these are 2:03:24.680 --> 2:03:25.480 Wall Street guys. 2:03:25.760 --> 2:03:27.880 One of them has probably done it, like that's that's 2:03:27.920 --> 2:03:29.120 probably why it's called that. 2:03:29.320 --> 2:03:32.360 Like, Yeah, I've thrown a lot of corpses at a 2:03:32.400 --> 2:03:34.160 lot of things and they don't really bounce. 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:38.320 Speaking of corpses, Robert, you have some exciting news on 2:03:38.400 --> 2:03:39.000 the army. 2:03:39.280 --> 2:03:40.800 Pronounce Col Garrison. 2:03:41.000 --> 2:03:44.480 Yes, Yes, the good news is the army is going 2:03:44.560 --> 2:03:49.400 to be more lethal and efficient than ever before, which 2:03:49.480 --> 2:03:52.840 President Trump announced while sitting in the White House next 2:03:52.920 --> 2:03:56.040 to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin net and Yahoo, who had 2:03:56.080 --> 2:03:58.160 to take roughly at twice the length of trip he 2:03:58.240 --> 2:04:00.360 normally has to take to go here because so many 2:04:00.400 --> 2:04:02.800 countries that he would normally fly over or stop in 2:04:03.200 --> 2:04:05.520 have arrest warrants out for him for all of the 2:04:05.560 --> 2:04:10.000 war crimes. We love to see it, but you know, 2:04:10.640 --> 2:04:13.080 it's not about the journey. It's about you know, the 2:04:13.120 --> 2:04:16.840 people you journey too. And Netanyahoo met with Trump, you know, 2:04:16.880 --> 2:04:20.600 someone whom he clearly feels very safe, and you know, 2:04:20.760 --> 2:04:23.600 I dare I say loving with and the two of 2:04:23.640 --> 2:04:27.000 them shared the most intimate bond that two elderly men 2:04:27.120 --> 2:04:29.880 who have committed war crimes can share, which is announcing 2:04:30.360 --> 2:04:33.520 a record budget for the United States military of one 2:04:33.720 --> 2:04:37.280 trillion dollars. Well, I should say, Trump stated it would 2:04:37.280 --> 2:04:40.880 be in the vicinity of one trillion dollars. Now, does 2:04:40.920 --> 2:04:43.560 that mean possibly that very little is changing about the 2:04:43.600 --> 2:04:46.480 military budget? Yes, it does, and we'll get to that 2:04:46.560 --> 2:04:49.600 in a second, hag Seth, our secretary of Defense, made 2:04:49.640 --> 2:04:52.680 a post on Twitter right after saying Trump is rebuilding 2:04:52.680 --> 2:04:56.320 our military and fast. He also really bragged about that 2:04:56.640 --> 2:04:59.280 trillion dollar amount and said, ps, we intend to spend 2:04:59.320 --> 2:05:02.720 every tax pay dollar wisely on lethality and readiness. 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:06.440 Now here's the thing. Trillion dollars shitload of money. 2:05:06.880 --> 2:05:10.640 Current amount of funding allocated to national defense programs eight 2:05:10.720 --> 2:05:13.960 hundred and ninety two billion dollars, so trillion dollars about 2:05:13.960 --> 2:05:17.879 a ten percent bump right for you know, the national 2:05:17.920 --> 2:05:21.640 defense programs. But it's actually unclear the way in which 2:05:21.640 --> 2:05:23.760 he phrased things and the way in which we like 2:05:23.840 --> 2:05:27.760 talk about the funding for national security, this could mean 2:05:27.800 --> 2:05:31.200 that basically the military will have pretty much the same, 2:05:31.280 --> 2:05:33.520 you know, something of an increase but not a mass, 2:05:33.560 --> 2:05:35.680 not really a significant difference from what it has now, 2:05:35.920 --> 2:05:39.440 and there will be more money into other defense related programs. 2:05:39.960 --> 2:05:43.040 So this is not like as massive a thing as 2:05:43.080 --> 2:05:46.880 it might necessarily sound like. I think one thing that's 2:05:46.880 --> 2:05:50.040 sort of significant here is like how this comports with 2:05:50.120 --> 2:05:52.640 the way a lot of the folks and what we'll 2:05:52.640 --> 2:05:54.760 call the shit had left had talked about where there 2:05:54.800 --> 2:05:58.000 was this discussion that Trump's actually going to be you know, 2:05:58.080 --> 2:06:01.520 bad for imperialism and the world machine. And you know, 2:06:01.520 --> 2:06:03.200 there was even talk as of a couple of months 2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:05.520 ago that they were going to like half the Pentagon budget, 2:06:05.720 --> 2:06:08.200 like you know, you know all these whatever else happens, 2:06:08.240 --> 2:06:10.880 you know, it's worth it if the military budget comes 2:06:10.920 --> 2:06:15.320 down in this you know, imperial juggernaut of hell gets 2:06:15.360 --> 2:06:19.240 finally neutered. And just all of those people are always wrong. 2:06:19.320 --> 2:06:21.480 They were always going to just make the army bigger. 2:06:21.560 --> 2:06:23.400 They were always going to put more money in defense. 2:06:23.440 --> 2:06:25.440 They were always going to put more money into the 2:06:25.480 --> 2:06:29.760 hands of defense contractors. Like anyone who knows anything about 2:06:29.760 --> 2:06:31.920 these people or about how Republicans have worked, knew that 2:06:32.000 --> 2:06:34.440 was going to happen. There was never any chance that 2:06:34.480 --> 2:06:38.360 they were going to cut the actual amount of money. 2:06:38.440 --> 2:06:40.720 Now they're probably going to cut the number of people 2:06:40.760 --> 2:06:43.600 in the military because despite what heck Seth said, there's 2:06:43.600 --> 2:06:45.280 a lot of evidence that a shitload of this is 2:06:45.320 --> 2:06:48.480 going to go towards modernization, and in fact, armed services, 2:06:48.560 --> 2:06:50.680 each branch is being our arm services are all being 2:06:50.680 --> 2:06:53.040 asked to cut about eight percent of their individual budgets 2:06:53.360 --> 2:06:57.280 in order to put money into modernization. Efforts, which obviously 2:06:57.320 --> 2:07:02.160 any military needs to regularly modernize different systems. But this 2:07:02.320 --> 2:07:04.280 is also a thing where if your country is run 2:07:04.400 --> 2:07:07.720 entirely by grifters and conman trying to shotgun money to 2:07:07.800 --> 2:07:10.680 their political supporters who have a lot of money in 2:07:10.680 --> 2:07:13.760 different defense companies, what this means to me is you 2:07:13.800 --> 2:07:17.320 are probably going to see them continue to trim numbers 2:07:17.320 --> 2:07:20.720 of actual troops and put more money into bullshit that 2:07:21.480 --> 2:07:24.720 gets a lot of money to contractors. Yeah, that is 2:07:24.800 --> 2:07:27.440 my expectation. That is what I see happening. More than 2:07:27.440 --> 2:07:30.600 anything here, we'll see, but I think a lot of 2:07:30.600 --> 2:07:34.160 this additional money is going to go towards buying shit 2:07:34.280 --> 2:07:36.839 that may or may not be useful. But the primary 2:07:36.840 --> 2:07:39.040 purpose of putting the money into that shit is because 2:07:39.200 --> 2:07:41.120 somebody who is somebody gets a veig. 2:07:41.360 --> 2:07:41.600 Yeah. 2:07:41.640 --> 2:07:44.320 I mean, if we look at fascism as a concept too, 2:07:44.320 --> 2:07:47.440 it kind of it has troubled relationship with modernity, but 2:07:47.440 --> 2:07:48.920 one of the things it likes to do is flex 2:07:48.960 --> 2:07:52.800 its new little weapon systems and toys. And we're going 2:07:52.840 --> 2:07:54.960 to see some guys posing with some weapon systems that 2:07:55.040 --> 2:07:58.160 probably never get used, right, like probably some AI targeting 2:07:58.200 --> 2:07:59.000 shit stuff like that. 2:07:59.120 --> 2:08:01.960 Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, it's does said. 2:08:02.120 --> 2:08:05.640 Yeah, well, we got to find some way to reallocate 2:08:05.720 --> 2:08:11.080 the alleged one and fifty billion dollars in DOGE cuts, 2:08:11.120 --> 2:08:14.080 which is certainly a fake number, absolutely a fake. We 2:08:14.160 --> 2:08:17.160 might as well send over two hundred billion more to 2:08:17.240 --> 2:08:18.200 the Defense Department. 2:08:18.360 --> 2:08:21.720 Based on early IRS filings, there's something like half a 2:08:21.800 --> 2:08:26.839 trillion dollars that we might be losing in tax income 2:08:26.880 --> 2:08:30.360 this year. So you know that I don't think we're 2:08:30.400 --> 2:08:32.920 doing great. I should also know to hear a big 2:08:32.960 --> 2:08:35.760 part of the money that they're going to get for 2:08:35.880 --> 2:08:39.720 modernizations coming from cutting fifty to sixty thousand civilian jobs, 2:08:40.320 --> 2:08:43.400 many of whom are veterans, but also just in terms 2:08:43.440 --> 2:08:47.400 of like military readiness, guys like hag Seth, who's primarily 2:08:47.680 --> 2:08:50.840 a push up dude, and people who don't know anything 2:08:50.840 --> 2:08:53.360 about the military see it as like, well, you know, 2:08:53.400 --> 2:08:55.600 the military, you just want as many door kickers as 2:08:55.640 --> 2:08:57.680 you possibly can, and you actually need very few of 2:08:57.680 --> 2:08:59.920 those guys. Would need a lot of is guys that 2:09:00.080 --> 2:09:03.120 can move things to different places and fix things when 2:09:03.120 --> 2:09:06.120 they break, and do a lot of the paperwork that's 2:09:06.160 --> 2:09:08.680 necessary to make both of those things possible, which is 2:09:08.720 --> 2:09:11.720 why you need those jobs, and cutting a shitload of 2:09:11.760 --> 2:09:15.480 them is not likely to increase readiness. It's also worth 2:09:15.520 --> 2:09:17.840 noting that the US Army is looking at a force 2:09:17.880 --> 2:09:20.960 reduction of up to ninety thousand active duty soldiers. This 2:09:21.000 --> 2:09:24.000 is based on an article from April fourth, which is 2:09:24.240 --> 2:09:27.520 a significant reduction, and again like, we're not. 2:09:27.480 --> 2:09:28.040 Is that real? 2:09:28.360 --> 2:09:28.600 Yes? 2:09:29.320 --> 2:09:31.640 Why why are they doing a ninety percent reduction? 2:09:31.880 --> 2:09:34.120 In part because it's very hard for them to find 2:09:34.520 --> 2:09:37.480 new active duty soldiers. It is not easy to get 2:09:37.520 --> 2:09:41.240 people to do this, and it is not the priority 2:09:41.240 --> 2:09:44.000 of anybody in charge of anything to actually get more soldiers. 2:09:44.040 --> 2:09:47.440 The priority is to put more money into systems AI 2:09:47.520 --> 2:09:49.360 and all this shit. Like, I don't think they have 2:09:49.400 --> 2:09:52.120 a vested interest in actually helping with that. 2:09:52.600 --> 2:09:55.040 How are we going to take Greenland with drones? 2:09:55.280 --> 2:09:55.920 When do we do it? 2:09:56.240 --> 2:09:56.520 Yeah? 2:09:56.560 --> 2:09:57.000 Probably? 2:09:57.200 --> 2:09:58.160 I mean there's not a lot of peace. 2:09:58.840 --> 2:09:59.800 Probably, how we're going to do it? 2:10:00.200 --> 2:10:02.320 A lot of people in Greenland Garrison. 2:10:03.400 --> 2:10:07.520 Excited for the naval blockade of Greenland. Yeah, kick off 2:10:07.560 --> 2:10:09.360 in about two months. 2:10:09.760 --> 2:10:12.960 Yeah, it's it's gonna be great. Anyway, they're gonna make 2:10:13.400 --> 2:10:15.760 part of why I think they feel confident trying to 2:10:15.760 --> 2:10:18.000 make you know they're calling this making the army smaller 2:10:18.000 --> 2:10:22.160 and more agile, is because Trump is doing his best 2:10:22.200 --> 2:10:25.920 to make friends with Russia and we're certainly not going 2:10:26.000 --> 2:10:28.600 to whatever happens with Taiwan, the US military is not 2:10:28.600 --> 2:10:29.400 going to be involved. 2:10:30.200 --> 2:10:32.120 Yeah. Yeah, we ain't gonna go back for them. 2:10:32.400 --> 2:10:34.120 You know, his attitude is like, what do we need 2:10:34.160 --> 2:10:36.480 this for? We need an agile military that we can 2:10:36.560 --> 2:10:39.680 use to fuck with Greenland and Panama. Like that's that's 2:10:39.720 --> 2:10:41.080 what we're going to be doing. 2:10:41.120 --> 2:10:45.040 Two very similar biomes where like everything is very similar. 2:10:45.160 --> 2:10:47.760 Yeah, and there's a lot of people like you know, 2:10:47.800 --> 2:10:50.240 the folks running Palanteer who have an increasing amount of 2:10:50.280 --> 2:10:52.960 say in what happens to the military, and you know 2:10:53.240 --> 2:10:57.040 what Trump does, who are basically advocating for, Like we're 2:10:57.040 --> 2:10:59.360 going to have this whole kill chain automated soon. We 2:10:59.400 --> 2:11:01.800 barely need people. You can't trust people, you know how 2:11:01.880 --> 2:11:05.360 untrustworthy your generals have proved. Donald Cool. 2:11:05.800 --> 2:11:09.720 Well, I'm excited for some more Arctic camo surplus to 2:11:09.760 --> 2:11:13.560 hit the market once yeah, Greenland situation is resolved. 2:11:14.600 --> 2:11:17.480 I'm excited to be fucking around wondering who a drone's 2:11:17.520 --> 2:11:19.880 going to kill next. That has been a really life 2:11:19.920 --> 2:11:23.040 affirming experience for me, and I'm excited to have it 2:11:23.080 --> 2:11:23.600 again soon. 2:11:24.480 --> 2:11:25.320 It's going to be great. 2:11:26.120 --> 2:11:29.840 Robbie, you mentioned the IRS and IRS maybe maybe get 2:11:29.920 --> 2:11:31.720 less money, So I'm going to talk a little bit 2:11:31.720 --> 2:11:32.520 about the IRS. 2:11:32.840 --> 2:11:34.959 I guess let's let's start with like a little summary 2:11:34.960 --> 2:11:38.040 of this week immigration news. This week child Rachik, who 2:11:38.080 --> 2:11:41.240 is the person who runs libs of TikTok Yeah, joined 2:11:41.360 --> 2:11:42.600 Ice on a raid. 2:11:42.920 --> 2:11:47.360 She is, shall we say, the uh Julius striker of 2:11:47.800 --> 2:11:48.800 our modern fashions. 2:11:48.920 --> 2:11:53.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you're right. 2:11:53.520 --> 2:11:56.800 Damn, sorry, I'm just no. I mean, like, I wasn't 2:11:56.880 --> 2:11:59.280 joking about that. That's the most direct comparison that. 2:11:59.400 --> 2:11:59.600 Yeah. 2:11:59.640 --> 2:12:01.600 Sorry, I just took a moment to reflect on that, 2:12:01.680 --> 2:12:03.600 and it's not a great thing to reflect on. 2:12:03.880 --> 2:12:04.480 It's really not. 2:12:04.680 --> 2:12:04.800 Now. 2:12:04.800 --> 2:12:05.920 It doesn't make me feel good. 2:12:06.000 --> 2:12:06.440 Yeah, No. 2:12:06.840 --> 2:12:08.360 Other things that don't make me feel good are the 2:12:08.400 --> 2:12:10.760 sixteen Minutes report is seventy five percent of people since 2:12:10.800 --> 2:12:13.920 SECO had no criminal conviction, which seems to leave open 2:12:13.920 --> 2:12:16.040 the possibility of there being a crime for which it 2:12:16.080 --> 2:12:18.440 will be okay to be sent to a foreign goo 2:12:18.480 --> 2:12:21.640 lag with no hope of return. Which I don't believe 2:12:21.720 --> 2:12:24.600 is the case. Like, yeah, I'm very disappointed at any 2:12:24.640 --> 2:12:27.520 reporting which focuses on guilt, as if one could ever 2:12:27.560 --> 2:12:30.400 be guilty of anything which would make this justifiable, you can't. 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:34.120 The government is also soliciting for proposals this week to 2:12:34.160 --> 2:12:38.920 massively increase migrant detention, which again is not surprising, right, 2:12:38.920 --> 2:12:42.160 we talked about this last November, but it's also not great. 2:12:42.240 --> 2:12:44.560 But where I want to focus today is on the 2:12:44.600 --> 2:12:48.120 IRS and the Abbudegorgatia case we spoke about last week. 2:12:48.680 --> 2:12:50.840 So well, it's see inter reporting that the IRS has 2:12:50.840 --> 2:12:52.800 said it will hand over information of people who are 2:12:52.800 --> 2:12:57.200 subject to criminal investigation to DHS or ICE, right, ICE 2:12:57.240 --> 2:13:01.160 being under DHS. They so, they say they What happened 2:13:01.200 --> 2:13:03.080 here is that if part of court filings, a memorandum 2:13:03.120 --> 2:13:07.080 of understanding between ICE and the IRS was released in 2:13:07.160 --> 2:13:10.480 the MoU or in the court filing. Actually they cite 2:13:10.480 --> 2:13:14.520 an offense of failure to depart the United States after 2:13:14.560 --> 2:13:18.560 being ordered removed. So essentially anyone who they're saying like, 2:13:19.200 --> 2:13:21.720 you have to go right, you know that they could 2:13:22.080 --> 2:13:26.000 they could then ask for their tax return information. Exactly 2:13:26.080 --> 2:13:29.200 what the IRS will disclose to ICE is covered by 2:13:29.320 --> 2:13:32.080 a big black reaction in the court documents, so we 2:13:32.080 --> 2:13:36.040 don't know that the entiremus submitted, but like there's significant 2:13:36.320 --> 2:13:39.560 reactions in it, ICE has to hand One thing that's 2:13:39.600 --> 2:13:41.320 not redacted is that ICE has to hand over the 2:13:41.360 --> 2:13:44.200 person's name, address, and the crime of which they're for 2:13:44.240 --> 2:13:46.880 which they're investigating, and it has to be a non 2:13:46.920 --> 2:13:47.600 tax crime. 2:13:47.680 --> 2:13:48.720 Not that that matter is Huguely. 2:13:49.160 --> 2:13:52.000 This is more limited than a lot of people have feared, 2:13:52.040 --> 2:13:54.640 and it's more limited than a lot of the reporting 2:13:54.680 --> 2:13:57.240 I've seen. It's possible that there's something else going on. 2:13:57.280 --> 2:13:59.040 I saw the acting director in ICE was going to 2:13:59.120 --> 2:14:02.400 quit over this that this morning. But the fact that 2:14:02.400 --> 2:14:05.280 they have to have their address suggests that they couldn't 2:14:05.320 --> 2:14:08.360 locate them using the tax return form, right, which is 2:14:08.720 --> 2:14:10.920 a good thing, Like it is one last step towards 2:14:11.000 --> 2:14:14.040 vacues from I guess. I'm also aware of ICE having 2:14:14.280 --> 2:14:18.600 memorandums of understanding with other agencies to include hud housing 2:14:18.600 --> 2:14:21.840 and urban development. All of this is going to reduce 2:14:22.080 --> 2:14:26.160 the amount that migrant communities engage with the federal government 2:14:26.360 --> 2:14:28.960 to any degree. Right, contrary to what you might have heard, 2:14:29.320 --> 2:14:31.960 undocupateed to people do tend to pay their taxes. It's 2:14:32.000 --> 2:14:34.280 actually relatively rare for them not to do that, and 2:14:35.080 --> 2:14:37.600 this might change if the RS starts handing over people's 2:14:37.600 --> 2:14:41.480 tax return and information to ICE. Right, Obviously, if HUD 2:14:41.560 --> 2:14:44.160 starts handing over people's information, that's going to lead to 2:14:44.160 --> 2:14:46.280 people not being as willing to take housing benefits, more 2:14:46.280 --> 2:14:47.680 people landing up living on the street. 2:14:47.760 --> 2:14:47.920 Right. 2:14:48.600 --> 2:14:51.920 On the other hand, Houston City and Texas for those 2:14:51.960 --> 2:14:55.880 you who aren't familiar, Have I pronounced that right, Robert Tehouse, Yeah, 2:14:56.120 --> 2:14:58.160 I thought it was. I wasn't sure if it was Houston. 2:14:58.640 --> 2:15:01.400 Houston House, so understood it. 2:15:01.720 --> 2:15:04.320 It's a place we just don't go. That's that's that's 2:15:04.320 --> 2:15:05.520 how I refer to Houston. 2:15:05.760 --> 2:15:06.520 Okay, beautiful. 2:15:06.600 --> 2:15:08.800 So this Texas No Men's Land town has turned over 2:15:08.880 --> 2:15:12.880 information including addresses and license paids for people charged with 2:15:12.960 --> 2:15:15.760 driving without a license, even though some of this under 2:15:15.840 --> 2:15:18.200 Texas law is supposed to remain confidential. 2:15:18.600 --> 2:15:19.360 So that's great. 2:15:19.880 --> 2:15:24.440 They are also now making immigration detentions at regular traffic stops. 2:15:24.960 --> 2:15:26.960 Some aware of one incident where a man was arrested 2:15:27.000 --> 2:15:29.840 after being stopped for a cracked windscreen and he's now 2:15:29.840 --> 2:15:33.040 an ICE detention so that there was I presumably an 2:15:33.040 --> 2:15:35.320 ICE warrant for this person that the Houston police then 2:15:35.440 --> 2:15:36.040 acted upon. 2:15:36.160 --> 2:15:38.800 I mean, and this is this can just be racial profiling, right, 2:15:38.920 --> 2:15:41.960 Like if they're going to just pull someone over and 2:15:42.000 --> 2:15:44.320 then send them to ICE, like they're just going to 2:15:44.360 --> 2:15:46.760 start pulling over as many people that they don't want 2:15:46.840 --> 2:15:47.760 to be in Houston. 2:15:47.920 --> 2:15:51.000 Yeah, Like we already know that police departments have a 2:15:51.040 --> 2:15:53.800 tendency to pull over people who aren't white more often, right, 2:15:54.080 --> 2:15:56.480 and then like if you give them this, that's just 2:15:56.520 --> 2:15:59.480 going to exacerbate that further. Again, it's also going to 2:15:59.560 --> 2:16:02.960 stop my communities interacting with the police in any way. 2:16:03.080 --> 2:16:03.280 Right. 2:16:03.960 --> 2:16:07.720 This obviously has look not a big police fan, but 2:16:07.800 --> 2:16:11.400 like in cases like domestic violence, right, sometimes people need 2:16:11.440 --> 2:16:12.920 to go to the police to be safe, and they're 2:16:12.960 --> 2:16:14.640 not going to do so. They think that means they 2:16:14.720 --> 2:16:16.840 or people they love will be deported and this will 2:16:16.840 --> 2:16:20.720 have negative consequences, and specifically in cases like domestic violence. 2:16:20.920 --> 2:16:24.720 And we know this, there is plenty of evidence for this. Nonetheless, 2:16:24.720 --> 2:16:28.800 this is continuing anyway. What's also continuing is our obligation 2:16:28.840 --> 2:16:30.240 to pivot to acts, which we should do. 2:16:30.280 --> 2:16:44.000 Now, Okay, we are back we're. 2:16:43.760 --> 2:16:47.080 Back and it's time to talk about the Supreme Court. 2:16:47.800 --> 2:16:51.400 We have to, Yes, yes, we do, Garython, because it's 2:16:51.440 --> 2:16:54.640 the biggest court. It's the big one, and they're big 2:16:54.680 --> 2:16:59.200 crushing it all week, just just sending down decisions. The 2:16:59.320 --> 2:17:01.360 two big ones I guess I want to talk about 2:17:01.440 --> 2:17:05.119 are a five to four ruling that it was vacating 2:17:05.200 --> 2:17:09.959 Bosberg's Troro. Bosberg being the judge who had initially told 2:17:10.440 --> 2:17:12.760 the United States government that had to stop sending people 2:17:12.800 --> 2:17:14.840 to set court right, and then the US had ignored 2:17:14.879 --> 2:17:17.040 Boseburg and done it anyway, and then they had this 2:17:17.040 --> 2:17:18.959 whole court case about how they hadn't ignored him and 2:17:19.040 --> 2:17:21.040 anyway it was a secret. Even though we're tweeting it, 2:17:21.560 --> 2:17:23.240 you can go back a couple of eds and hear 2:17:23.280 --> 2:17:26.960 about that. In this decision, the Court was unanimous in 2:17:27.080 --> 2:17:30.400 asserting that people removed under the Alien Enemies Act do 2:17:30.520 --> 2:17:33.840 have a right to due process, but that they have 2:17:33.959 --> 2:17:37.000 to bring a habeas petition. So like the reason they 2:17:37.080 --> 2:17:39.600 vacated to tro was that the case shouldn't have gone 2:17:39.600 --> 2:17:42.560 to Bosburg right, that they should have bought this habeas petition. 2:17:43.040 --> 2:17:45.160 In practice, that's going to be very hard given the 2:17:45.160 --> 2:17:47.879 fact that many migrants, even under the current system, even 2:17:47.920 --> 2:17:50.440 under Biden, most migrantsh didn't speak English didn't have access 2:17:50.440 --> 2:17:55.199 to legal representation, so this ruling is still pretty bad. 2:17:55.720 --> 2:17:58.720 The only thing that people in the court case wanted 2:17:58.760 --> 2:18:01.560 to stop was their rendition to El Salvador, right. It 2:18:01.640 --> 2:18:04.320 wasn't even like opposed to other forms of removal. It 2:18:04.360 --> 2:18:08.480 was specific to this El Salbador situation. The court also 2:18:08.560 --> 2:18:11.120 sort of cited criminal cases as precedent, which is a 2:18:11.240 --> 2:18:14.520 very different thing, and it gives us very narrow ruling 2:18:14.879 --> 2:18:17.680 of the due process available to migrants rate and it 2:18:17.720 --> 2:18:19.760 relies on my having access to a legal team, which 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:22.240 could be expensive and complicated for them. 2:18:22.480 --> 2:18:27.240 So this ruling allows Troup administration to send people to 2:18:27.360 --> 2:18:30.959 El Salvador as as long as they have the quote 2:18:31.000 --> 2:18:35.280 unquote right to do process, which is narrowly defined as 2:18:35.280 --> 2:18:38.720 something that not many people will have access to anyway. 2:18:39.240 --> 2:18:42.680 Yes, yeah, well summarized, yeah, you would need to have 2:18:42.800 --> 2:18:45.800 like a lawyer on retainer to file your habas right 2:18:45.879 --> 2:18:46.600 leg straight away. 2:18:46.640 --> 2:18:49.320 So if that just doesn't get filed, then you are 2:18:49.320 --> 2:18:52.240 basically in their view forfeiting your due process and they 2:18:52.280 --> 2:18:53.360 can deport you anywhere. 2:18:53.720 --> 2:18:55.720 Well, they can deport you anyway. 2:18:55.800 --> 2:18:58.680 Yeah, I guess you have the right to appeal it, 2:18:58.760 --> 2:19:02.160 like by saying like I want to file this habeas petition, 2:19:03.160 --> 2:19:05.360 but most people aren't going to do that, so in 2:19:05.400 --> 2:19:09.640 practice that they haven't explicitly ruled on the zecoric thing. 2:19:09.760 --> 2:19:12.200 Right the Aberigo Garcia case, which is the other case, 2:19:12.760 --> 2:19:15.760 a Fourth Circuit judge required the US to return Abergogarcia 2:19:15.920 --> 2:19:18.560 to the US, and then Chief Justice Roberts on his 2:19:18.680 --> 2:19:23.320 own issued in an administrative stay, so he is effectively 2:19:23.360 --> 2:19:27.200 telling them that Fourth Circuit judge, you can't order them 2:19:27.240 --> 2:19:30.720 to have him return right now. We need to take 2:19:30.760 --> 2:19:33.080 a time out. We need everybody to get their evidence 2:19:33.080 --> 2:19:36.680 in order and then bring that to us, so that 2:19:36.800 --> 2:19:39.680 case like remains ongoing. 2:19:39.959 --> 2:19:43.279 Right in the brief for that case, the government. 2:19:43.000 --> 2:19:47.040 Referred to Abligo Garcia as an enemy alien. But I 2:19:47.080 --> 2:19:50.200 don't think MS thirteen is covered by the evocation of 2:19:50.240 --> 2:19:52.400 the Alien Enemies Act. I think it was specific to 2:19:52.400 --> 2:19:55.920 trend deer Ragua. And then they also claim that they 2:19:56.000 --> 2:19:59.240 removed him under the Immigration Nationality Act, not the Alien 2:19:59.320 --> 2:20:02.680 Enemies Act. So like, none of this, I guess is 2:20:02.800 --> 2:20:05.240 hugely surprising we're seeing this like sort of post hoc 2:20:05.400 --> 2:20:07.800 justification of what they did, right, which is kind of 2:20:07.800 --> 2:20:11.360 how they operate. But that case still remains ongoing, so 2:20:11.400 --> 2:20:14.360 we're still we're still going to hear that one, which 2:20:14.560 --> 2:20:18.360 presumably will reflect on the constitutionality of sending people to 2:20:18.400 --> 2:20:20.959 said cod But like the fact that, yeah, they ruled 2:20:21.080 --> 2:20:24.000 the other case, right, the one that was five to four, 2:20:24.400 --> 2:20:26.360 It wasn't about whether said cock was legal. It was 2:20:26.360 --> 2:20:29.440 about where the Bosberg had the right to make a 2:20:29.520 --> 2:20:31.400 decision on this particular case. 2:20:31.959 --> 2:20:33.520 But it's still not great. 2:20:33.560 --> 2:20:35.600 Like it looks like the Supreme Court is doing everything 2:20:35.640 --> 2:20:38.520 it can to avoid a face to face showdown with 2:20:38.600 --> 2:20:41.840 the executive branch. Yeah, because they don't want to deal 2:20:41.840 --> 2:20:43.360 with the consequences of be ignoring them. 2:20:43.959 --> 2:20:44.359 Nope. 2:20:44.640 --> 2:20:47.080 And like we said before, like maybe the only court 2:20:47.080 --> 2:20:48.720 that they will listen to is a Supreme Court. Whether 2:20:48.720 --> 2:20:50.320 the Supreme Court doesn't make them, then they won't. 2:20:50.400 --> 2:20:53.120 So that's where we're at with that. Not great, not 2:20:53.200 --> 2:20:56.000 exactly great at all. Well, do you know what is 2:20:56.040 --> 2:20:59.840 doing great? The economy? And for more on that, I 2:20:59.840 --> 2:21:02.000 think I think it's time for tariff talk with me 2:21:02.160 --> 2:21:02.879 a wong. 2:21:02.959 --> 2:21:11.160 Wait wait, wait, tariff talk. 2:21:09.760 --> 2:21:12.360 Jazz rock, jazz, bar. 2:21:13.800 --> 2:21:19.480 Locking jazzy jazz. 2:21:19.600 --> 2:21:24.879 B ah yeah, every day, every time we do it. 2:21:25.160 --> 2:21:28.600 The only band that matters is the only band that matters. 2:21:28.640 --> 2:21:35.280 The Narcissist Cookbook doing a very brief refrain from Rocks, 2:21:35.320 --> 2:21:36.520 the worst clash song. 2:21:37.160 --> 2:21:39.640 By a white margin, the only clash song from the 2:21:39.720 --> 2:21:44.119 plagiar in Operation Desert Storm, which summer cry. 2:21:44.840 --> 2:21:46.040 A real catastrophe? 2:21:46.560 --> 2:21:49.880 Do you know what is in't a catastrophe? The economy? 2:21:50.040 --> 2:21:50.680 How's it going? 2:21:52.240 --> 2:21:52.320 So? 2:21:52.480 --> 2:21:55.360 I just I just saw a wonderful chart where someone 2:21:55.520 --> 2:21:57.200 was like, ah, this is this is one of the 2:21:57.240 --> 2:21:59.400 eight best days the SMP has ever had in every 2:21:59.440 --> 2:22:02.720 single other one of those days is like nineteen twenty nine, 2:22:03.040 --> 2:22:05.279 nineteen thirty one, thousand age. 2:22:05.440 --> 2:22:12.560 Yeah, it's one of the best days. From Mount Saint 2:22:12.560 --> 2:22:16.160 Helen's Equality. Yeah yeah, so good. 2:22:16.640 --> 2:22:17.600 So all right. 2:22:18.000 --> 2:22:21.560 The terriff situation as of two forty three pm Pacific 2:22:21.600 --> 2:22:24.240 time on April ninth. 2:22:24.440 --> 2:22:28.000 Is that there is mine going good. 2:22:29.120 --> 2:22:31.320 It's gotta be cool, guys, don't worry about it. 2:22:32.560 --> 2:22:35.039 Okay, So there isn't one hundred and twenty five percent 2:22:35.120 --> 2:22:36.960 tariff on all goods from China? 2:22:37.600 --> 2:22:38.119 Is that bad? 2:22:39.360 --> 2:22:42.000 I Uh, you know, there's a bit that I cut 2:22:42.000 --> 2:22:46.200 here where I was gonna say about how like at 2:22:46.280 --> 2:22:49.800 fifty four percent, I was like, we've entered the part 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:51.320 of the map where it just says here there would 2:22:51.320 --> 2:22:54.000 be dragons. At one hundred and twenty five percent, there's 2:22:54.000 --> 2:22:56.400 not even dragons there that they didn't even think to 2:22:56.480 --> 2:22:59.879 put that on the map as an unknown region. Hi, 2:23:00.160 --> 2:23:02.840 this is Mia from the future. It is now Thursday. 2:23:02.879 --> 2:23:05.080 One of the problems with attempting to do this episode 2:23:05.840 --> 2:23:09.640 is that we are learning the teriff rate from Twitter 2:23:09.720 --> 2:23:13.800 in real time. So it turns out that the actual 2:23:13.879 --> 2:23:18.360 tariff rate on China, as as clarified by by Donald 2:23:18.400 --> 2:23:23.320 Trump today, is one hundred and forty five percent. And 2:23:23.520 --> 2:23:25.800 also it has become clear that the twenty five percent 2:23:25.879 --> 2:23:30.000 turf tariffs on both Mexico and Canada are also still 2:23:30.040 --> 2:23:32.879 in effect. So yay. 2:23:34.360 --> 2:23:37.640 In medical terms, it means what happened to the global 2:23:37.680 --> 2:23:41.320 economy is equivalent to you getting hit directly in the 2:23:41.360 --> 2:23:44.720 spine by an F two fifty going forty five miles 2:23:44.760 --> 2:23:47.920 an hour. That's that's that's what's happened to the base 2:23:48.080 --> 2:23:49.439 of the global economy. 2:23:49.959 --> 2:23:52.400 Yes, and I mean it's it is very funny that 2:23:52.480 --> 2:23:53.879 like a lot of people have been focusing on the 2:23:53.920 --> 2:23:55.880 bond stuff because you can just look at the tariff 2:23:55.920 --> 2:23:58.960 numbers and it's like like, yeah, okay, seeing a one 2:23:59.000 --> 2:24:01.360 hundred and twenty five sent tariff on all goods from 2:24:01.440 --> 2:24:03.480 China and then looking at the bond markets to figure 2:24:03.480 --> 2:24:06.120 out if that's bad or not is like is like 2:24:06.160 --> 2:24:08.360 walking outside into a blizzard and being like, whoa, I 2:24:08.360 --> 2:24:10.120 need the weather rather tell me if it's knowing, like, 2:24:10.600 --> 2:24:12.520 what are we doing here? What are we doing here? 2:24:13.040 --> 2:24:16.560 The reason I'll explain, like briefly, treasury bonds are the 2:24:16.680 --> 2:24:20.440 underpinning of every country, the entire global economy. Every single 2:24:20.480 --> 2:24:23.440 country has a shitload of money in US treasury bonds 2:24:23.879 --> 2:24:26.160 because they are the most reliable thing. And what a 2:24:26.160 --> 2:24:28.400 treasury bond is is you give money to the US 2:24:28.480 --> 2:24:31.000 government and they say, in a period of time you 2:24:31.040 --> 2:24:32.720 can take this out and it will have grown by 2:24:32.720 --> 2:24:37.680 a set percentage. Because treasury bonds have been for the 2:24:37.800 --> 2:24:41.879 last basically a century, so incredibly stable. This is where 2:24:41.920 --> 2:24:44.279 you put your money that you don't want to gamble. 2:24:44.360 --> 2:24:46.720 So you have money that is in stocks and stuff 2:24:46.720 --> 2:24:48.720 that can go up and down, but you also head 2:24:48.720 --> 2:24:50.760 your bets by having a bunch of this. And you know, 2:24:50.959 --> 2:24:54.320 generally treasury bonds are hopefully enough to about keep pace 2:24:54.400 --> 2:24:57.039 with inflation or beat it by a little bit, but 2:24:57.840 --> 2:25:00.800 usually the rate is not all that high because there's 2:25:00.840 --> 2:25:04.279 a shitload of demand. People are always buying treasury bonds. 2:25:04.920 --> 2:25:07.680 When the treasury bond rate, which is the percentage you 2:25:07.720 --> 2:25:10.840 get back, raises, that may look good, right, they're like, wow, 2:25:10.840 --> 2:25:13.440 you get five percent now on if you put money 2:25:13.440 --> 2:25:16.000 into a into a thirty year T bond. But what 2:25:16.040 --> 2:25:20.040 that means is that everyone is selling their treasury bonds. 2:25:20.320 --> 2:25:22.800 So demand is down and the rate is higher, and 2:25:22.840 --> 2:25:26.080 everyone is selling them because entire countries at a time 2:25:26.200 --> 2:25:29.240 are pulling their money out. Nations are pulling their money 2:25:29.280 --> 2:25:30.400 out of the US economy. 2:25:30.520 --> 2:25:33.199 It's great, yeah, And we are going to get more 2:25:33.320 --> 2:25:36.720 into how through administration wants to fuck with that later. 2:25:37.480 --> 2:25:40.560 But first off, programming note, programming note, I am going 2:25:40.600 --> 2:25:42.720 to be from this episode forward referring to all of 2:25:42.760 --> 2:25:46.320 these as the turf tariffs, because fuck them, and because 2:25:46.360 --> 2:25:49.160 these tariffs are in a large part also about a 2:25:49.160 --> 2:25:51.279 bunch of really weird fucking masculinity bullshit. 2:25:51.400 --> 2:25:54.640 So God excited for that yeah, and when you make 2:25:54.680 --> 2:25:57.520 most of your election ads being about yeah, trans people, 2:25:57.800 --> 2:26:00.000 and then and then the economy goes to the toilet. 2:26:00.200 --> 2:26:01.840 This is this is what was voted for. 2:26:02.040 --> 2:26:04.160 Like, if if you wanted transphobia, this is what you wanted. 2:26:04.200 --> 2:26:06.000 You want you wanted to lose your job, you wanted 2:26:06.040 --> 2:26:07.280 everyone to lose their fucking home. 2:26:07.320 --> 2:26:10.840 Speaking at Tea Bonds, am I right, let's keep over 2:26:10.879 --> 2:26:11.720 that immediately. 2:26:12.120 --> 2:26:13.560 No, no, no. 2:26:14.120 --> 2:26:18.320 One law for him, go away, okay, okay. So, so 2:26:18.560 --> 2:26:20.920 the most the most chaotic thing happening here, other than 2:26:21.040 --> 2:26:28.000 Robert randomly saying things, is that nobody knows what the 2:26:28.000 --> 2:26:31.160 tariff situation is going to be, just even just on 2:26:31.280 --> 2:26:34.720 Friday when you're listening to this, right, like you, by 2:26:34.720 --> 2:26:36.480 the time you were listening to this, there could be 2:26:36.520 --> 2:26:38.920 two hundred percent teriffs on Indonesia. There could be four 2:26:38.920 --> 2:26:41.920 thousand percent terroriffs on Vietnam. We don't know. 2:26:42.240 --> 2:26:42.320 No. 2:26:42.480 --> 2:26:45.400 Trump could have dissolved the US dollar and we're all 2:26:45.480 --> 2:26:48.760 using the fucking d or whatever, like I know, I 2:26:48.760 --> 2:26:49.160 don't know. 2:26:50.400 --> 2:26:53.400 Yeah, and like you know, so so it's all really unstable. 2:26:53.640 --> 2:26:55.400 We can talk about the other things that are still 2:26:55.440 --> 2:26:57.720 in effect, so that there's a general ten percent tariff 2:26:58.560 --> 2:27:01.640 on all countries except for China are just supposed to 2:27:01.680 --> 2:27:05.000 have a general ten percent tariff. There's also the per 2:27:05.040 --> 2:27:09.680 Megan Cassellos, a CNBC reporter, there are twenty five percent 2:27:09.760 --> 2:27:14.160 tariffs on steel, aluminum, and cars. There's probably going to 2:27:14.200 --> 2:27:17.440 be more. He keeps talking about more tariffs, and it's like, 2:27:17.480 --> 2:27:21.080 who knows where they're gonna happen, like maybe pharmaceuticals, semiconductors. 2:27:21.959 --> 2:27:26.920 But the Liberation Day tariffs turff tariffs are currently on 2:27:26.959 --> 2:27:27.800 hold for. 2:27:27.800 --> 2:27:30.200 Ninety days at least as of right now. 2:27:30.360 --> 2:27:30.560 Yeah. 2:27:30.640 --> 2:27:33.760 Yeah, and the and the quote unquote reciprocal tariffs have 2:27:33.879 --> 2:27:36.920 been lowered to ten percent for me at least, it's 2:27:37.000 --> 2:27:40.000 unclear as of recording. On Wednesday, Trump said that this 2:27:40.080 --> 2:27:42.240 is a fact, this is in effect immediately. It's unclear 2:27:42.240 --> 2:27:44.600 if those ten percent tariffs are also on hold for 2:27:44.720 --> 2:27:45.400 ninety days. 2:27:45.480 --> 2:27:47.880 No, I think the tempercent ones are in effect right now. 2:27:47.959 --> 2:27:50.200 But it's really hard to tell because he's just saying shit. 2:27:50.440 --> 2:27:52.760 And yes, it's very hard to tell, which I ain't 2:27:52.800 --> 2:27:54.120 saying it, he's truthing it. 2:27:54.720 --> 2:27:55.720 Yes, sorry, he is. 2:27:55.840 --> 2:27:57.640 He is true social ing that this information. 2:27:58.040 --> 2:28:00.360 That is how we have to work out the global 2:28:00.360 --> 2:28:04.560 economic future. It's based on posts. I'm true social yeah, so. 2:28:04.360 --> 2:28:06.720 So okay, And one of the things that's been happening 2:28:06.760 --> 2:28:09.520 with with the turf tariffs is that, like the media 2:28:09.680 --> 2:28:12.360 is just is reporting things as true that are just 2:28:12.680 --> 2:28:16.320 clearly obviously a lie. So one of the ones that's 2:28:16.360 --> 2:28:18.480 been going around and that the media is reporting that 2:28:18.480 --> 2:28:21.199 Trump has said is that he's he said he's going 2:28:21.240 --> 2:28:24.200 to pause tariffs on countries that don't retaliate, except we 2:28:24.280 --> 2:28:27.800 know that's a lie because the EU already imposed retaliatory tariffs. 2:28:28.040 --> 2:28:31.160 But the EU's turf tariff rate is like already down 2:28:31.160 --> 2:28:33.680 to ten percent, just like everyone else. So we know 2:28:34.280 --> 2:28:37.640 that Trump is lying about his rationale for the rollback 2:28:37.680 --> 2:28:40.760 of the turf tariffs, right, and every single fucking media 2:28:40.760 --> 2:28:44.480 outlet is still just reporting it because nobody fucking knows 2:28:44.800 --> 2:28:47.680 how to do freaking reporting anymore. We should move to 2:28:48.160 --> 2:28:51.080 what this is going to do the supply chain, and 2:28:52.000 --> 2:28:54.680 to put this in perspective. When I learned about the 2:28:54.959 --> 2:28:57.039 one hundred and four percent tariff on China, that was 2:28:57.080 --> 2:28:59.040 before it was one hundred and twenty five percent where 2:28:59.040 --> 2:29:01.720 it's at now, I was writing an episode called The 2:29:01.720 --> 2:29:03.760 Old economy is dead, which will probably be still be 2:29:03.760 --> 2:29:06.120 coming out on Monday. Again, that was the fifty four 2:29:06.800 --> 2:29:09.680 percent rate. I was writing a thing called the old 2:29:09.680 --> 2:29:12.560 Economy is dead at one hundred and four percent, Like 2:29:12.920 --> 2:29:15.000 things are going to break in the supply chain that 2:29:15.120 --> 2:29:17.600 only seven people on Earth have ever heard of before, 2:29:18.000 --> 2:29:20.600 Like entire sectors of the economy are going to be annihilated. 2:29:20.640 --> 2:29:22.560 We're going to see right now, we're probably going to 2:29:22.600 --> 2:29:25.840 see everyone attempt to route like all shipping from China. 2:29:25.840 --> 2:29:27.680 There's going to be a massive effort to try to 2:29:27.680 --> 2:29:30.440 reroot it through like literally any other country. But again 2:29:30.600 --> 2:29:35.080 that's only a solution for like you know, ninety days, 2:29:35.879 --> 2:29:38.400 and and again it's not even clear that can work. 2:29:38.480 --> 2:29:40.240 I mean, I'm already seeing a bunch of reports swamp 2:29:40.240 --> 2:29:42.240 business as being like, yeah, we're fucked because and that 2:29:42.360 --> 2:29:44.920 was the four percent tariffs, and at one hundred and 2:29:45.000 --> 2:29:50.760 twenty five percent, entire industries are non viable. Now it's 2:29:50.840 --> 2:29:54.920 maybe possible that if it was just these tariffs and 2:29:55.040 --> 2:29:58.920 such an all Chinese shipping was able to be routed 2:29:58.959 --> 2:30:02.959 through some other country, maybe we would only have a 2:30:03.000 --> 2:30:06.520 regular economic collapse like a like you know, like an 2:30:06.560 --> 2:30:09.560 early two thousands tech bubble collapse and not like a 2:30:09.600 --> 2:30:11.400 two thousand and eight one. But again that's the same 2:30:11.440 --> 2:30:13.560 thing that note moti war tariffs go into effect. Now, 2:30:13.879 --> 2:30:17.200 the problem is that we went through this with the 2:30:17.280 --> 2:30:20.520 ninety day pauses on the Mexican tariffs and the Canadian tariffs, 2:30:20.520 --> 2:30:22.480 and then after ninety days everyone assumed they weren't going 2:30:22.480 --> 2:30:23.959 to go to efect again. Then they just went to effect. 2:30:24.879 --> 2:30:28.000 So the odds are of that the absolutely catastrophic turf 2:30:28.040 --> 2:30:30.320 tariffs from like Liberation Day are going to go into 2:30:30.360 --> 2:30:34.120 effect in about ninety days, right, that that's probably what's 2:30:34.160 --> 2:30:36.520 going to happen. There's probably going to be some attempts 2:30:36.520 --> 2:30:39.760 to negotiate them down, but like again, those absolutely catastrophic 2:30:39.800 --> 2:30:42.160 tariffs which are going to just fucking annihilate the entire 2:30:42.160 --> 2:30:45.360 world economy, are probably going to go into effect. And 2:30:46.000 --> 2:30:48.640 you know, part of what's happening here, right is that 2:30:49.959 --> 2:30:52.840 so the markets are doing this, they're like dead cat bounce, right, 2:30:52.920 --> 2:30:54.680 And a lot of this is because they haven't actually 2:30:55.520 --> 2:30:59.680 stopped to think about like how much American manufacturing and 2:30:59.760 --> 2:31:02.920 con sure, every argument everyone is making about this, there 2:31:03.000 --> 2:31:05.200 is actually a lot of manufacturing still in the US, 2:31:05.240 --> 2:31:08.080 but all of it relies on Chinese imports and various 2:31:08.120 --> 2:31:10.880 stages of in vadio stage of production, and they're fucked. 2:31:11.560 --> 2:31:13.960 And I haven't even mentioned yet, by the way, the 2:31:15.080 --> 2:31:17.000 sort of caps to all of this is that China 2:31:17.080 --> 2:31:19.520 is doing an eighty four percent retaliatory tariff on all 2:31:19.520 --> 2:31:22.320 American goods, which is going to just fuck massive portions 2:31:22.320 --> 2:31:24.119 of American agriculture. We've talked a lot on the show 2:31:24.120 --> 2:31:27.879 about soybean exports. It's going to be absolutely catastrophic. We're 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:31.440 going to go more into this on Monday. But you know, 2:31:31.480 --> 2:31:34.240 the thing that's clear from this is that these people 2:31:34.480 --> 2:31:37.400 don't see the economy as real in the way that 2:31:37.440 --> 2:31:40.080 you and I do, right, They simply don't. You know, 2:31:40.240 --> 2:31:42.120 we look at the economy as something where we have 2:31:42.200 --> 2:31:44.200 to have a fucking job so we can go to work, 2:31:44.240 --> 2:31:46.520 so we can come home and fucking buy food for 2:31:46.560 --> 2:31:48.600 our families and pay our rent. And they think it's 2:31:48.600 --> 2:31:52.119 a fucking joke, right. They think it's a fucking masculinity signifier, 2:31:52.600 --> 2:31:54.960 and they think it's like they look at tariff rates 2:31:54.959 --> 2:31:56.200 and they go, this is just a number on a 2:31:56.280 --> 2:31:58.440 fucking page. And that's why the tariff rate is now 2:31:58.440 --> 2:32:01.680 one hundred and twenty five percent China because it doesn't 2:32:01.680 --> 2:32:03.480 none of this ship is real for them at all. 2:32:04.520 --> 2:32:08.160 Now do you know what is real? No, the products 2:32:08.160 --> 2:32:25.520 and services that support this. Yeah, yeah, yep, we are 2:32:25.560 --> 2:32:28.240 back now. Okay. One of the things that I've been 2:32:28.240 --> 2:32:29.480 seeing a lot of is there are a lot of 2:32:29.600 --> 2:32:32.039 arguments about whether there was some kind of plan here. 2:32:32.120 --> 2:32:34.400 Trump has claimed that he was going to roll back 2:32:34.440 --> 2:32:37.280 the terrorists all along, and no, he wasn't. Just no, 2:32:37.600 --> 2:32:39.360 he's just lying. He's just going by the seat of 2:32:39.400 --> 2:32:42.840 his pants. And I can prove that there is no 2:32:42.959 --> 2:32:45.120 plan here by moving on to the second thing that 2:32:45.160 --> 2:32:46.880 I want to talk about here, which is a speech 2:32:46.959 --> 2:32:51.440 given by Council of Economic Advisors Chairman Steve Myhren at 2:32:51.440 --> 2:32:53.920 the Hudson Institute. So this is this is again the 2:32:53.920 --> 2:32:58.000 the the Council of Economic Advisors is is a federal 2:32:58.000 --> 2:33:00.480 agency that is like their their job is to provide 2:33:00.520 --> 2:33:05.600 economic advice to the president, right, and their chair gave 2:33:05.640 --> 2:33:08.640 a speech where he argues and this is something that 2:33:08.720 --> 2:33:12.279 like I I Jesus fucking Christ, we were talking about, Okay, 2:33:12.920 --> 2:33:15.200 the fact that every fucking country on earth has us 2:33:15.280 --> 2:33:17.680 Treasury bonds. We were talking about this earlier, right, the 2:33:17.680 --> 2:33:20.880 status of the US dollar as the global reserve currency. 2:33:21.240 --> 2:33:24.320 This guy is arguing that that is actually a public 2:33:24.440 --> 2:33:28.760 good that other countries should pay US for. He wants 2:33:28.840 --> 2:33:33.440 to force countries to fucking pay taxes to the United 2:33:33.440 --> 2:33:36.119 States for holding US Treasury bonds. 2:33:36.640 --> 2:33:39.720 And again, if any nation on Earth could pay to 2:33:39.840 --> 2:33:43.000 have their currency be the global reserve currency, there's no 2:33:43.080 --> 2:33:46.560 amount they wouldn't pay. Like, the degree to which this 2:33:46.640 --> 2:33:49.840 benefits you is ridiculous, Like the fact that you wantn't 2:33:49.879 --> 2:33:51.440 to charge other people for it. 2:33:51.440 --> 2:33:52.040 It's nice. 2:33:52.840 --> 2:33:53.320 It is like. 2:33:53.680 --> 2:33:58.280 Look how this like actually works, right, is that every 2:33:58.360 --> 2:34:02.640 single other country on Earth is forced to buy American debt, 2:34:02.840 --> 2:34:05.520 which is what a bond is, right, Yeah, And this 2:34:05.600 --> 2:34:08.160 allows the US to carry out even more spending without 2:34:08.200 --> 2:34:10.080 inflationary effects every single other country. 2:34:10.400 --> 2:34:13.240 Everything is based on this, Yes, it's just. 2:34:13.280 --> 2:34:15.440 It's all forced on on like other countries happen to 2:34:15.440 --> 2:34:19.200 stockpowle US dollars like the literally the entire global economy. 2:34:19.200 --> 2:34:21.160 The US is advantage in the entire global econy is 2:34:21.200 --> 2:34:24.279 that every single other fucking country on Earth needs US dollars. 2:34:24.280 --> 2:34:26.120 Part of this is to buy oil. And part of 2:34:26.120 --> 2:34:28.640 this is again because the dollar is the fucking reserve currency. 2:34:28.640 --> 2:34:30.800 It's the currency the fucking trade is done in. And 2:34:31.000 --> 2:34:34.840 the asset that you hold is is like, is the 2:34:34.879 --> 2:34:38.000 fucking US bond. The anthropologist David Graeber called this in 2:34:38.080 --> 2:34:40.480 his book Debt the First five thousand Years, a tribute 2:34:40.520 --> 2:34:43.440 system that again, every country in the world is forced 2:34:43.440 --> 2:34:46.000 to buy US bonds. The US government has just like 2:34:46.360 --> 2:34:48.840 fairly explicitly, like they did this in the Reagan administration, 2:34:48.920 --> 2:34:50.920 does this other times, like has just fairly explicitly leaned 2:34:50.959 --> 2:34:52.800 on countries and been like, you're buying a fucking a 2:34:52.840 --> 2:34:56.879 fucking bunch of US bonds now, right, Like this is 2:34:57.080 --> 2:34:59.240 this system. The status of the dollar of the world 2:34:59.280 --> 2:35:05.160 reserve currency, is the entire lattice that supports and spreads 2:35:05.200 --> 2:35:09.280 the American Empire. And these fucking clowns want people to 2:35:09.440 --> 2:35:13.720 pay taxes on the tribute that they are paying to us. 2:35:14.320 --> 2:35:17.720 This is not by Trump and Elon Musk, right, this 2:35:18.040 --> 2:35:21.000 is the guy these people brought in to be their 2:35:21.000 --> 2:35:25.680 economist to do economic policy. Yeah, there there is no 2:35:25.879 --> 2:35:29.440 limit to their stupidity. There is no rock of sanity 2:35:29.520 --> 2:35:32.480 upon which the tide of madness will crash everything we 2:35:32.560 --> 2:35:35.560 have seen. We have seen so far is just a 2:35:35.640 --> 2:35:40.680 prelude to an infinite abyss of stupidity, so mind numbingly incomprehensible, 2:35:40.720 --> 2:35:44.039 it will shatter our minds like a snowflake and a hurricane. 2:35:44.160 --> 2:35:47.080 You can no longer think to yourself. They cannot possibly 2:35:47.080 --> 2:35:50.959 be this stupid. They are thinking thoughts even gods cannot comprehend. 2:35:51.280 --> 2:35:54.840 They are attempting to drain the sea by shouting at 2:35:54.840 --> 2:35:57.320 the moon. They are trying to wipe their ass with 2:35:57.480 --> 2:36:00.800 pine cones. There is no five dimensional pl here. There 2:36:00.840 --> 2:36:03.440 was not even a man behind the fucking curtain. There 2:36:03.520 --> 2:36:07.000 was only an infinite sea of cruelty, malicone, stupidity trying 2:36:07.040 --> 2:36:09.160 to drown us, all for the crime of attempting to 2:36:09.200 --> 2:36:12.000 exist in the world we were born in. The reality 2:36:12.400 --> 2:36:16.039 of the man who ruled the American Empire is this. 2:36:16.280 --> 2:36:18.680 It is so terrifying that everyone from the most powerful 2:36:18.680 --> 2:36:20.879 CEOs on the planet to the fucking day traders running 2:36:20.879 --> 2:36:23.720 the stock markets to broke left the ship posters recoil 2:36:23.800 --> 2:36:26.680 in horror and try to construct meaning and some kind 2:36:26.720 --> 2:36:29.480 of like anything, any kind of strategy, any kind of 2:36:29.520 --> 2:36:32.680 strategic reason why anyone could possibly be doing this because 2:36:32.680 --> 2:36:35.680 the existence of a plant, literally, any plan, no matter 2:36:35.680 --> 2:36:39.000 how evil it is, is preferable to this, which is 2:36:39.000 --> 2:36:42.440 that the largest economy in the world, the most powerful 2:36:42.480 --> 2:36:44.960 empire the world has ever seen, is being run by 2:36:45.000 --> 2:36:48.440 the dumbest people who have ever fucking lift and they 2:36:48.440 --> 2:36:51.680 are doing this because they are evil and they're stupid. 2:36:52.160 --> 2:36:57.400 Yes, yes, there's absolutely like yeah, yeah, no, nothing else 2:36:57.440 --> 2:36:57.760 to say. 2:36:57.800 --> 2:36:58.119 Really. 2:36:59.360 --> 2:37:01.560 I think one of the things that is underpinning this, 2:37:01.640 --> 2:37:04.680 which you can pick up on if you are cursed 2:37:04.760 --> 2:37:07.440 enough to listen to enough of these speeches and enough 2:37:07.480 --> 2:37:10.280 of their of their talking heads and podcasts, is like 2:37:10.320 --> 2:37:14.560 this reoccurring trend in which these people really need to 2:37:14.600 --> 2:37:16.920 be victims in order to in order to politically succeed, 2:37:16.959 --> 2:37:19.240 which is an acuation that's usually thrown against you know, 2:37:19.360 --> 2:37:22.880 woke sgw's. But like before the election, right, it was 2:37:22.920 --> 2:37:26.760 this idea that that because because of the dem corrupt 2:37:26.840 --> 2:37:30.400 elite establishment, you know, everyday Americans are are are victims 2:37:30.440 --> 2:37:33.160 of this, of this hidden cabal of Democrats that that 2:37:33.200 --> 2:37:36.000 are ruining everything. But but now that these people are 2:37:36.000 --> 2:37:40.039 in charge of of of the United States, the people 2:37:40.080 --> 2:37:42.840 who are victimizing US is just the entire world, right, 2:37:42.920 --> 2:37:45.320 the entire world is ripping off the United States by 2:37:45.400 --> 2:37:49.440 using our dollar, by by doing trade with us. They 2:37:49.440 --> 2:37:52.280 are somehow ripping us off, like we are the victims 2:37:52.560 --> 2:37:56.320 of this global scheme, and it's hurting you at the 2:37:56.360 --> 2:38:00.000 average blue collar worker, and it's making women adopt manager 2:38:00.040 --> 2:38:03.160 surial positions and and this is this is what's actually 2:38:03.440 --> 2:38:08.400 is the core of of your oppression. And even even 2:38:08.440 --> 2:38:11.680 even when they win, even when they control the country, 2:38:11.840 --> 2:38:14.560 they can't let go of this victim status. They have 2:38:14.640 --> 2:38:17.920 to have someone ripping them off in order to justify 2:38:17.959 --> 2:38:22.160 them doing just incomprehensible stupid power grabs. And it is 2:38:22.280 --> 2:38:25.840 very much linked to like this like masculine signifier. It's 2:38:25.959 --> 2:38:28.040 very odd, like like the way that people are trying 2:38:28.080 --> 2:38:31.000 to trying to justify losing so much money in the 2:38:31.040 --> 2:38:33.320 stock market. It's by re posting a clip of some 2:38:33.440 --> 2:38:38.680 like Australian women from dancing dancing on TikTok in like 2:38:38.760 --> 2:38:42.080 an office building, and they're like, well, you know, tariffs 2:38:42.320 --> 2:38:45.760 are are are much better than having to deal with 2:38:45.920 --> 2:38:47.279 women in the office. 2:38:47.040 --> 2:38:47.280 Am I? 2:38:47.360 --> 2:38:47.680 Right now? 2:38:47.920 --> 2:38:48.760 Women having a joke? 2:38:49.240 --> 2:38:50.760 This is this is this is how they this is 2:38:50.760 --> 2:38:51.600 how they justify it. 2:38:51.920 --> 2:38:54.680 At least we don't have woke. It's worth it to 2:38:54.760 --> 2:38:57.680 not be able to afford food. If the is the 2:38:57.680 --> 2:39:01.880 global loghouse, that's a deep cut. The long House is 2:39:01.920 --> 2:39:05.800 burnt down. Sure, because the Long House is burnt down, 2:39:05.840 --> 2:39:08.320 We're now exposed to the elements and all of our 2:39:08.360 --> 2:39:11.840 food stores are gone, and it's about to snow eighteen feet. 2:39:12.280 --> 2:39:14.160 But at least the Long House. 2:39:13.959 --> 2:39:17.920 The Long House with the nephew in it that you 2:39:18.040 --> 2:39:20.200 hate and owned you at Thanksgiving, it's gone. 2:39:20.240 --> 2:39:21.600 Shout out to your nephew. 2:39:21.840 --> 2:39:24.200 Yeah, I guess what's what's the nibbling? Nibbling? It's a 2:39:24.200 --> 2:39:26.000 correct non binary appollition. 2:39:26.320 --> 2:39:30.240 In other news, last week, President Trump said that he 2:39:30.240 --> 2:39:32.960 would be quote unquote honored for the president of l 2:39:33.000 --> 2:39:38.000 Salvador to take US citizens, which he calls American grown 2:39:38.240 --> 2:39:42.480 and born criminals, and put them into Seacott, the Terrorism 2:39:42.480 --> 2:39:46.039 Confinement Center, which is essentially a prison work camp. 2:39:46.160 --> 2:39:47.840 Yep, that no one gets released from. 2:39:47.920 --> 2:39:51.200 Yeah, Trump said, quote why should it stop just at 2:39:51.240 --> 2:39:54.359 people that crossed the border illegally on quotes. 2:39:55.000 --> 2:39:56.480 But it shouldn't stop that. 2:39:57.720 --> 2:40:00.000 She shouldn't be there at all. And his dams already mentioned, 2:40:00.120 --> 2:40:01.920 seventy five percent of the immigrants sent to see Caught 2:40:02.000 --> 2:40:05.400 don't have a criminal conviction. These people are not criminals. Now, 2:40:05.560 --> 2:40:08.520 a few days later, the White House presecretary reiterated that 2:40:08.600 --> 2:40:11.600 this is something that Trump is seriously discussing, both publicly 2:40:11.680 --> 2:40:12.520 and privately. 2:40:13.040 --> 2:40:15.720 So the President has discussed this idea quite a few 2:40:15.720 --> 2:40:19.480 times publicly. He's also discussed it privately. You're referring to 2:40:19.520 --> 2:40:24.760 the President's idea for American citizens to potentially be deported. 2:40:24.800 --> 2:40:28.600 These would be heinous, violent criminals who have broken our 2:40:28.720 --> 2:40:33.080 nation's laws repeatedly, and these are violent repeat offenders in 2:40:33.120 --> 2:40:36.760 American streets. The President has said if it's legal right, 2:40:37.080 --> 2:40:39.000 if there is a legal pathway to do that, he's 2:40:39.040 --> 2:40:40.760 not sure. We are not sure if there is. It's 2:40:40.760 --> 2:40:43.359 an idea that he has simply floated and has discussed 2:40:43.760 --> 2:40:46.199 very publicly, as in the effort of transparency. 2:40:46.560 --> 2:40:48.320 Now, one of the last things we're going to discuss 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:53.480 is an update on DHS and ICE efforts to deport 2:40:53.840 --> 2:40:57.480 students across the country. Me and James did an episode 2:40:57.560 --> 2:41:00.320 last week which is still pretty relevant, but all of 2:41:00.320 --> 2:41:04.320 the numbers have increased dramatically since that episode. As of 2:41:04.320 --> 2:41:07.720 Tuesday night, April eighth, ninety two student visas have been 2:41:07.720 --> 2:41:12.560 revoked at California universities, fifty at uc campuses and thirty 2:41:12.600 --> 2:41:17.199 six at California State University campuses, with six more at Stanford. Also, 2:41:17.360 --> 2:41:19.720 as of April eighth, fifty student visas have been revoked 2:41:19.760 --> 2:41:23.760 at Arizona State University, with multiple students now in iced attention. 2:41:24.320 --> 2:41:27.039 Lawyers for these students believe that upwards of one thousand 2:41:27.120 --> 2:41:31.080 visas have been revoked across the country. A map on 2:41:31.360 --> 2:41:35.199 inside higher ed dot com shows four hundred and nineteen 2:41:35.400 --> 2:41:38.840 confirmed instances of student visas or in some cases, green cards, 2:41:38.920 --> 2:41:42.040 being revoked by Secretary of State Mark Rubio across thirty 2:41:42.080 --> 2:41:46.080 four states, and as of Wednesday, April ninth, visas for 2:41:46.200 --> 2:41:49.480 eighteen international students have been revoked at the University of Utah, 2:41:49.640 --> 2:41:52.280 with these students and recent graduates received letters from the 2:41:52.280 --> 2:41:56.359 Trump administration instructing them to quote unquote self deport immediately. 2:41:57.160 --> 2:41:59.800 At Utah State University, more than thirty students have been 2:41:59.840 --> 2:42:02.400 in pacted, according to the university administration. 2:42:02.920 --> 2:42:05.640 Yeah, I'm aware of at least one UCSD student who 2:42:05.720 --> 2:42:08.840 was detained at the border and immediately deported. I'm also 2:42:08.959 --> 2:42:12.120 where that UCOP uc officer, the president right had a 2:42:12.160 --> 2:42:15.840 statement about the impact of service terminations across its campuses. 2:42:16.360 --> 2:42:19.960 But the UCSD Guardian, in a dub for student Journalism, 2:42:20.040 --> 2:42:25.080 reported that UCSD convened an emergency meeting before this of 2:42:25.160 --> 2:42:29.160 faculty and it knew about the revocations or that the 2:42:29.240 --> 2:42:33.200 service changes, right, they were a vocation of their student status, 2:42:34.000 --> 2:42:37.000 and it was reluctant to act because it hadn't received 2:42:37.080 --> 2:42:39.840 guidance from UCOP yet. So we're seeing this from a 2:42:39.840 --> 2:42:43.640 lot of university administrations, right, they don't know how to respond. 2:42:43.720 --> 2:42:46.320 I did see that the University of Arizona was helping 2:42:46.360 --> 2:42:49.360 fund some of the legal fees of their students, which 2:42:49.400 --> 2:42:52.200 is more than many universities are doing as of now. 2:42:52.200 --> 2:42:54.080 There seems to be no pattern of prior rest for 2:42:54.120 --> 2:42:57.039 the people who have had their status has changed, but 2:42:57.360 --> 2:43:01.439 in some cases it seems that in so university systems, 2:43:01.520 --> 2:43:03.680 all of the people who have lost their status are 2:43:03.720 --> 2:43:06.720 either Chinese, Indian, or from majority Muslim countries. 2:43:07.760 --> 2:43:09.840 One other thing I wanted to close out this episode on, 2:43:10.240 --> 2:43:12.760 so we have an episode out about this already, but 2:43:13.800 --> 2:43:15.320 one of the things that ICE has been doing has 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:19.039 been targeting migrant farm work at labor organizers. They have 2:43:20.879 --> 2:43:24.240 basically just kidnapped, like just straight up broke this guy's 2:43:24.280 --> 2:43:27.440 window in his car and dragged him out. A guy 2:43:27.480 --> 2:43:30.640 named Alfredo Quarez is known as Lalo. He is an 2:43:30.720 --> 2:43:37.400 organizer for Familias You need Uslegisticia in Washington, and there 2:43:37.480 --> 2:43:39.600 is going to be a protest. This will be Saturday, 2:43:39.680 --> 2:43:41.600 the twelfth. That'll be tomorrow as you're listening to this, 2:43:41.680 --> 2:43:45.560 on Friday at Portland City Hall at two pm. Organizers 2:43:45.600 --> 2:43:48.360 are also asking that you call the Washington Attorney General 2:43:48.400 --> 2:43:54.840 to demand pressure be put on everyone to release him. Yeah, 2:43:55.000 --> 2:43:57.200 if you want to hear more about that, there is 2:43:57.360 --> 2:44:01.320 I have an interview with an organizer works with them, 2:44:01.720 --> 2:44:06.800 and yeah, it's real fucking bad. The scale of the 2:44:06.879 --> 2:44:10.000 repression has been increasing. It's not undefeatable. And this is, 2:44:10.200 --> 2:44:13.400 you know, is a this is a tangible thing that 2:44:13.440 --> 2:44:17.280 you can do to try to stop them. But yeah, 2:44:17.320 --> 2:44:21.640 it requires movement now, and yeah, do this now before 2:44:21.680 --> 2:44:22.320 it gets worse. 2:44:24.360 --> 2:44:27.160 To update another topic of the episode me and James 2:44:27.200 --> 2:44:30.840 did last week, we mentioned that DHS was seeking input 2:44:31.200 --> 2:44:34.959 for installing a new program to screen the social media 2:44:35.000 --> 2:44:39.320 activity of people applying for immigration benefits for what they 2:44:39.400 --> 2:44:44.080 label as anti semitism, and this policy is now in effect. 2:44:44.640 --> 2:44:48.520 This applies to quote unquote, aliens applying for lawful permanent 2:44:48.560 --> 2:44:53.240 resident status, foreign students, and aliens affiliated with educational institutions, 2:44:54.080 --> 2:44:59.080 possibly also people applying for citizenship. To quote the DHS 2:44:59.080 --> 2:45:03.000 Assistant Secretary of Public Affairs, Trisha McLaughlin, quote, there's no 2:45:03.080 --> 2:45:04.879 room in the United States so for the rest of 2:45:04.879 --> 2:45:07.680 the world's terrorist sympathizers, and we are under an obligation 2:45:07.800 --> 2:45:12.039 to admit them or let them stay here. Secretary Nome 2:45:12.040 --> 2:45:13.640 has made it clear that anyone who thinks they can 2:45:13.680 --> 2:45:16.400 come to America and hide behind the First Amendment to 2:45:16.440 --> 2:45:19.840 advocate for anti Semitic violence and terrorism, think again. You 2:45:19.920 --> 2:45:23.119 are not welcome here. Unquote. The web page for this 2:45:23.200 --> 2:45:27.560 new policy states, under this guidance, USCIS will consider social 2:45:27.600 --> 2:45:32.120 media content that indicates an alien endorsing, espousing, promoting, or 2:45:32.160 --> 2:45:36.240 supporting anti Semitic terrorism, anti Semitic terrorist organizations, or other 2:45:36.320 --> 2:45:40.240 antisemitic activity as a negative factor in any discretionary analysis 2:45:40.280 --> 2:45:45.240 when adjudicating immigration benefit requests. So essentially, this means that 2:45:45.280 --> 2:45:48.600 if you've posted anything that is in support of Palestine 2:45:48.680 --> 2:45:51.960 or criticizes the Israeli government. This will be now used 2:45:52.000 --> 2:45:55.000 against you if you are applying for visa, if you 2:45:55.000 --> 2:45:57.280 are applying for a green card, if you're applying for 2:45:57.320 --> 2:45:59.760 citizenship and already live in this country as a permanent 2:45:59.800 --> 2:46:06.160 read lawfully, So just a wider net of social media surveillance. 2:46:06.400 --> 2:46:08.760 Four h four Media put out a good article on 2:46:09.120 --> 2:46:13.840 Wednesday about a palanteer system that ICE is using to 2:46:14.360 --> 2:46:17.120 look for immigrants and people in this country, which allows 2:46:17.160 --> 2:46:20.320 them to select for specific attributes with a pretty intense 2:46:20.360 --> 2:46:23.800 filtering system. So yeah, this is ongoing and we will 2:46:23.800 --> 2:46:25.199 continue to report as such. 2:46:25.720 --> 2:46:30.000 Yeah, all right, everybody, Well until next week, Please don't 2:46:30.480 --> 2:46:33.160 go to an El Salvador in prison camp if you 2:46:33.160 --> 2:46:33.800 can avoid it. 2:46:34.400 --> 2:46:35.560 We reported the news. 2:46:35.959 --> 2:46:40.640 It is great, We reported the news. 2:46:45.400 --> 2:46:48.600 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:46:48.640 --> 2:46:50.560 from now until the heat death of the universe. 2:46:51.160 --> 2:46:51.760 It could happen. 2:46:51.800 --> 2:46:54.200 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 2:46:54.240 --> 2:46:58.440 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, 2:46:58.640 --> 2:47:01.720 or check us out on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, 2:47:01.840 --> 2:47:04.640 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find 2:47:04.680 --> 2:47:07.720 sources for it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. 2:47:08.080 --> 2:47:08.879 Thanks for listening,