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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to It could happen here, It is continuing to

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Speaker 3: happen stonks, but we will discuss the stonks probably late

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Speaker 3: later this week. This episode's going to be much more

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Speaker 3: fun because I am I am pleased to have returning

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Speaker 3: to the show Elle Yeerman, writer, comedian, end creator and

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Speaker 3: host of Going Down with Elle Yeerman, a trends political

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Speaker 3: comedy news show. As well as joining us here is

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Speaker 3: teen Vogue's news and politics editor Lex mcminnimon. Welcome both

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Speaker 3: of you. Hi, Hi, Thanks, So we're going to be

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Speaker 3: talking about the recent Teen Vogue special issue cover story

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Speaker 3: on Vivian Wilson, the estranged daughter of Elon musk Ella.

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Speaker 3: You put together a fantastic piece last month, and this

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Speaker 3: is what we're gonna discuss how this article came together.

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Speaker 3: That viral photo shoot in Japan, which is fantastic. All

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Speaker 3: the styling in that shoot was lovely. But I think this,

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Speaker 3: this particular piece was really relevant for like trans people,

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Speaker 3: and also relevant because of the way like global politics

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Speaker 3: has been shaken up by a few specific people, and

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Speaker 3: focusing in on Vivian I think was really special. So

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Speaker 3: I guess I would first like to hear about, like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: like the broad strokes of how this first came together.

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Speaker 4: From our perspective.

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Speaker 5: You know, I don't know that like everyone is aware

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Speaker 5: of this, and certainly I don't know that all of

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Speaker 5: my friends in our various trans subcultures know this. But

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Speaker 5: at Team Vague, we've been covering like transpolitics and trans

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Speaker 5: writes for a long time, like far before I got here,

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Speaker 5: But I've been here for almost four years, and it's

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Speaker 5: been a pretty big part of my beat, in part

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Speaker 5: because of it being like a very unavoidable thing within

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Speaker 5: following like US state legislatures and then obviously like at

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Speaker 5: the federal level, which has only intensified more and more

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Speaker 5: in the last year. And so that's like one aspect

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Speaker 5: of it. But at the same time, we love young

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Speaker 5: people that shit post, and so Vivian had been on

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Speaker 5: our radar for a while totally. I also think people

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Speaker 5: are maybe more aware of this whole, like Comrade teen

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Speaker 5: Vogue vibe of like, we're really interested in talking to

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Speaker 5: people that have a clear political leaning, that have like

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Speaker 5: a sense of how they see themselves in the world

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Speaker 5: in a political context, and Vivian sort of came right

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Speaker 5: out the gate as someone who was really eager to

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Speaker 5: share her thoughts on these things. So from last summer,

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Speaker 5: like within like a month of when Vivian was kind

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Speaker 5: of introduced to the world through her father talking about

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Speaker 5: her on Jordan Peterson's podcast, we were trying to get

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Speaker 5: in touch with her and with something I was talking

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Speaker 5: a lot about within the office, and we didn't really

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Speaker 5: know what to do because she was just kind of

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Speaker 5: she just kind of emerged from from nowhere onto the Internet.

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Speaker 5: And so I had been talking about it a lot,

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Speaker 5: including with Ella because we talk a lot. And so

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Speaker 5: Ella find eventually revealed like, oh that's Umphy, I am.

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Speaker 1: Utuls with Indian, not Umfi.

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Speaker 4: You you did kind of I mean, are you.

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Speaker 3: Threads Umfi's what what are you? Instagram Instagram nice.

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Speaker 1: I would never use threads.

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Speaker 4: My god, so over to you.

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Speaker 5: That's my that's my teen Vogue intro. But Ella, if

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Speaker 5: you want to yeah, no.

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Speaker 3: Because yeah, I am interested in contacting Vivian because she

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Speaker 3: was certainly getting like an unhinged number of media requests

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Speaker 3: starting last summer.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's true, right, So she did that one

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Speaker 6: NBC interview after after Elon went on, Peterson and I

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Speaker 6: do not work at teen Vogue, but Lex and I

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Speaker 6: know each other because you're contractually obligated to know everyone

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Speaker 6: else who's part of the you know, deep State illuminati

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Speaker 6: doing trans Politics online club.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I was just gonna say trans people Club then deep State.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the council exactly. We're all established members, right, we

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Speaker 1: swear allegiance once a year. There's a whole ritual. Don't

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Speaker 1: worry about it.

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Speaker 6: So when I got in touch with Vivian last fall,

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Speaker 6: which I got in touch with her initially to see

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Speaker 6: if she would come on Going Down, and I reached

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Speaker 6: out to her and I said, do you want to

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Speaker 6: come on my live comedy show? And she said no,

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Speaker 6: I'm actually not sure live comedy is for me. I'm

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Speaker 6: a little worried. I'm not funny enough. And since then

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Speaker 6: she has changed her mind. She's told me repeatedly that

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Speaker 6: she regrets saying that to me, that she has decided

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Speaker 6: she actually is funnier than everyone else alive, all of

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Speaker 6: the things that a prolific twenty year old poster might say.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 6: But so I got in touch with her and then

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Speaker 6: she said no, and I was like, okay, well, at

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Speaker 6: least I have this mutual now. And then a few

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Speaker 6: months later I mentioned Alex that I gotten in touch

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Speaker 6: with her, and Lex said, okay, so she doesn't want

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Speaker 6: to do a live comedy show that nobody that nobody knows.

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Speaker 4: About does not want to do a live comedy show.

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Speaker 6: What if instead we did a really fancy photo shoot

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Speaker 6: and put her in teen Vogue, a legacy journalism magazine.

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Speaker 6: And I said, honestly, I think that's a better sales pitch,

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Speaker 6: and it was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it is. It is really compelling. I mean

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Speaker 3: that the photo shoot pulls a whole bunch of people in.

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Speaker 3: It's certainly if I was in Vivian's position, that would

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Speaker 3: be interesting to me. And it does help spread around,

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Speaker 3: like like so much of the piece is talking about,

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Speaker 3: like the struggles of living as a young trans person

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Speaker 3: in America, and the fact that you can use a

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Speaker 3: teen Vogue photo shoot to like spread writing about that

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Speaker 3: around the internet is like super super useful.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I just want to like second what

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Speaker 6: lexis to say, I think the work teen Vogue has

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Speaker 6: been doing is really important. Like so many I mean Garrison,

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Speaker 6: you know, like so much trans media is like independently

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Speaker 6: distributed and like dy and I love us for that,

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Speaker 6: but it is always really heartening to see like mainstream

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Speaker 6: media institutions uplift trans voices the way teen Vogue has

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Speaker 6: been doing.

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Speaker 5: And it's also like Conde Nast as an institution, which

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Speaker 5: is like teen Vogue's parent company is only one of

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Speaker 5: multiple media conglomerates that will very proudly like use trans

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Speaker 5: people in a representative way, like and like sell magazine

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Speaker 5: covers with trans people on it. Like you could think

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Speaker 5: of Hunter Shaffer, for example, she'd been on the cover

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Speaker 5: of several vogues, but at the same time, Hunter Shaffer

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Speaker 5: also received a misgendering passport after the Trump admins. So like,

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Speaker 5: I think that if legacy media is unwilling to connect

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Speaker 5: the dots between like profiting off of like the aesthetics

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Speaker 5: of trans people, but not actually like talking about the

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Speaker 5: political underpinnings of like why trans people are even able

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Speaker 5: to be visible at this time and like what the

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Speaker 5: you know trapdoors Termaligne calls it of trans visibility means

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Speaker 5: then it's like why even do this work in the

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Speaker 5: first place. So Vivian was like a really great opportunity

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Speaker 5: for us to like build on, Like we've done several photoshoots,

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Speaker 5: particularly with trans women because I trans girls at teen Vogue,

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Speaker 5: because we like feel very strong. Only a Allen makes

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Speaker 5: this point in the piece that like the way that

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Speaker 5: transfem people are like objectified and commodified, and also like

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Speaker 5: the target of such extreme bittrial is something it feels

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Speaker 5: really important to take a stand against. It just felt

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Speaker 5: like doing this with Vivian, who's so high profile but

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Speaker 5: also hadn't had the opportunity yet to take control of

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Speaker 5: her own narrative in the public eye, and with this

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Speaker 5: being her second ever interview for a sever photo shoot,

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Speaker 5: like it just felt like a really big opportunity that was.

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Speaker 4: Worth using as a big swing, you know.

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Speaker 3: No, like she is at like this center of this

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Speaker 3: like matrix of trans commodification in so many ways like

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Speaker 3: like this this special issue was the first time Vivian

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Speaker 3: was really like framed as the subject matter of like

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Speaker 3: any piece and like framed as her own person. For

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Speaker 3: the entirety of her adult life, she's been used as

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Speaker 3: this rhetorical object, like both by her dad, but as

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Speaker 3: well as like by people on the left who's like

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Speaker 3: objectified Vivian to use her as a bludgeon against her father.

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Speaker 3: And Yeah, like people are very willing to like commodify

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Speaker 3: or or use trans people in certain ways, but to

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Speaker 3: have like trans people writing about other trans people in

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Speaker 3: a way that frames them as a subject matter is

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Speaker 3: so important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think Vivian.

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Speaker 6: One of the things that drew me to the story

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Speaker 6: in the first place is that Vivian's sort of case

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Speaker 6: is such an interesting microcosm of the transform experience as

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Speaker 6: a whole. Yeah, She's incredibly talked about for something that

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Speaker 6: is not her fault and not under her control at all,

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Speaker 6: in the same way that right now on the national stage,

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Speaker 6: like transfemininity and transit is at large, but specifically transfemininity

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Speaker 6: is the like problem to be spoken about, especially conservatives,

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Speaker 6: like Butler calls it a phantasm like gender nonsense.

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Speaker 1: I read that book.

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Speaker 4: You have my copy.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm almost certain I do that.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that makes almost certainly. That's the trouble with gender, right,

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Speaker 6: gender trouble. Yeah, no, no, that's the original book.

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Speaker 4: It's she was afraid of gender. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 6: I have your book, but I haven't looked at it

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Speaker 6: in a long time except for to remember the word phantasm.

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Speaker 6: And so, yeah, I totally agree with what Lex said

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Speaker 6: of it's really exciting to sort of like take her

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Speaker 6: out of being used as a prop and give her

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Speaker 6: own voice back. I think one of the most exciting

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Speaker 6: moments in the piece to me is the moment where

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Speaker 6: I ask her about sort of the allegations that Elan

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Speaker 6: like shifted right word because of her, and she pushes

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Speaker 6: back against sort of that narrative very strongly. And I

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Speaker 6: think that is the way we've seen her being used

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Speaker 6: both on the left and the right as sort of

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Speaker 6: a this is why he's doing this. It's clearly the

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Speaker 6: fact that he has this twenty year old trans girl,

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Speaker 6: and she's like, actually, that's a crazy thing to say

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Speaker 6: about it about a twenty year old well.

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Speaker 3: And especially to counter the narrative of her life. That's

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Speaker 3: been driven by Walter Isaacson's twenty twenty three biography, which

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Speaker 3: is like so hostile and to have like a prominent,

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Speaker 3: like a prominent biography like that, like trying to make

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Speaker 3: a narrative out of out of your existence with something

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Speaker 3: you have like no like input in no control, and

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Speaker 3: it's like so demeaning. It's also like a very like

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Speaker 3: you know, trans misogyny moment as well, Like, yeah, it

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Speaker 3: is interesting how how much of like Vivian is so relatable,

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Speaker 3: Like like a lot of trans people have, shall I say,

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Speaker 3: challenging relationships with their parents, maybe not to this extreme,

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Speaker 3: but but sometimes frankly right, like there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: people are forced to cut off contact with their family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: No, I've just been thinking a lot about this because

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Speaker 5: you know, Trump released yet another executive order. I think

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Speaker 5: that this one was today basically trying to codify allowing

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Speaker 5: trans youth to access gender affirming care as abuse quote unquote,

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Speaker 5: which is like something that the Republican Party has been

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Speaker 5: flagging for months that they were going to do at

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Speaker 5: the federal level as well. It has already shown up

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Speaker 5: in the rhetoric around transit healthcare, which obviously is going

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Speaker 5: to be used as justification for targeting trans adults access

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Speaker 5: to health care and something that you know, I'm the

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Speaker 5: only transperson on my team. Something that kept coming up

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Speaker 5: in Vivian's story was that it was almost like anyone

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Speaker 5: could relate to this, because anyone can relate to having

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Speaker 5: like a shitty parent, an abusive parent, like a bad dad, whatever.

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Speaker 5: And so I think there's an extent to which this

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Speaker 5: story has like a lot of value in like forcing

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Speaker 5: CIS people to really be confronted with the fact that

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Speaker 5: like how trans youth are treated like objectively is like abusive.

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Speaker 5: And it's not the access to healthcare that is the abuse.

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Speaker 5: It's like the way that they're dismissed. It's the way

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Speaker 5: they're belittled, It's the way they can't even be like

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Speaker 5: trusting their own parents to be looking out for them,

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Speaker 5: and to the extent that they have to push themselves

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Speaker 5: out into the world to clarify that point. So like

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Speaker 5: that's one aspect of it. I totally agree with what

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Speaker 5: you were both saying that it is like a microcosm

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Speaker 5: of the trans experience. But I do think there's like

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Speaker 5: this other valance for like allowing her to like control

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Speaker 5: how this is being perceived or received sort of by

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Speaker 5: CIS media and like sis like the CIS political spirit,

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Speaker 5: which is like how trans people are just getting shoved

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Speaker 5: into that over and over and over again with very

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Speaker 5: little context. Felt like a really valuable thing to be

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Speaker 5: able to do give and how like, frankly, so much

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Speaker 5: of my coverage right now just feels like it's like

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Speaker 5: trying to raise attention to the fact that, like, these

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Speaker 5: are kids, these are young people, Like everyone should be

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Speaker 5: able to relate to a young person saying like I

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Speaker 5: have a bad parent and that sucks and is a

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Speaker 5: formative thing for me, Like that is something that like

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Speaker 5: other children are afforded the ability to do, and like

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Speaker 5: we just don't let trans kids like have that as

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Speaker 5: something that's part of their truth when it's such a

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Speaker 5: key part of like growing up trans in a hostile household.

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Speaker 3: And something like Vivian talked about at length, is like,

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Speaker 3: as someone who did transition as a minor, there's all

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Speaker 3: this like villainization around, whether that's whether that's puberty suppressing hormones,

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Speaker 3: whether that's having HRT, and how like the landscape that

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Speaker 3: like me, like her Ella and like a lot of

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Speaker 3: people that our age like came out of is not

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Speaker 3: going to exist for the next generation of like trans kids,

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Speaker 3: or at least it's going to be very different, and

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Speaker 3: we need to do everything we can to stop it

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Speaker 3: from being as bad as what it looks like it's

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Speaker 3: going to be. And Vivian like talked about this at

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Speaker 3: length of the piece, with the restriction of puberty blockers,

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Speaker 3: all this stuff in schools and this complete demonization of

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Speaker 3: not just the healthcare but also like the people they

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Speaker 3: like trans kids as this own demon of America that's

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Speaker 3: that's like invading or is like threatening. So I think

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Speaker 3: it is really cool a Vivian do talk about that

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Speaker 3: at length in this special teen Vogue Cool photo Shoot article.

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Speaker 6: I will say, I think, yeah, I think it's so

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Speaker 6: important that that's talked about, and I'm glad she did.

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Speaker 6: I'm also really glad as someone who covers like trans

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Speaker 6: politics and news all the time, it was such a

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Speaker 6: breath of fresh air to be able to frame this

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Speaker 6: piece as like a look into what like the joy

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Speaker 6: of transition looks like and looking at like yea, how

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Speaker 6: transition has brought her closer to the life she wants

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Speaker 6: to be living. And I'm not that old, but like

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Speaker 6: talking to someone who's a few years younger than me

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Speaker 6: and who transitioned at an earlier stage in life gave

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00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 6: me like such a beautiful vision of what the future

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00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 6: could look like if we if we fix some of

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Speaker 6: the bullshit that's going on these days. All Right, I'm

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Speaker 6: being clowned on in the chat. I'm not that much

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Speaker 6: older than Vivian, is what I meant. And now I'm

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Speaker 6: peaking my microphone and the podcast is going to sound terrible.

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Speaker 6: Look what you said. I'm not that much older than Vivian,

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Speaker 6: but she started transitioning at a much younger stage of

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Speaker 6: life than me, and to see like what that has

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Speaker 6: done for her, and like the way, I don't know,

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Speaker 6: it was just really beautiful to talk to like a

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Speaker 6: twenty year old girl and be like, oh, you're like

299
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Speaker 6: trans but it's like it's like not actually that big

300
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Speaker 6: of a deal, and it.

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Speaker 5: Like it also like confirms a thing that like, I mean,

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Speaker 5: I made a joke about this earlier with like we

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00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 5: love young people that ship post, but like I think

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00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 5: so much of liberal and right wing talking points about

305
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 5: like young people in general like sees them as so

306
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 5: humorless like they are like cancel culture, like are nonsense,

307
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 5: whereas Vivian is so funny, Like we actually struggled to

308
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 5: cut jokes out of the piece, like Ellen and Ellen

309
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 5: could tell you we went back and forth for hours

310
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Speaker 5: about so many jokes that did not and just one

311
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Speaker 5: liner is like she's so quickie and so like so funny.

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Speaker 5: She's extremely funny.

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Speaker 3: A very dense style of humor, as in like there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of there's a lot packed in like almost

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Speaker 3: every other sentence.

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Speaker 6: Alex and I are both some of the fastest talking

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Speaker 6: people I know, and I would put Vivian in that

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Speaker 6: same group of people who can keep up with us

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Speaker 6: or out talk me.

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Speaker 7: Uh huh.

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Speaker 3: That comes across in the writing too, like the way

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00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 3: that the interview is transcribed, you can you can read

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Speaker 3: that pace into the piece.

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Speaker 1: She's awesome.

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Speaker 6: So much of our editing was just like sort of

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Speaker 6: taking out yeah, like little jokes or like she's twenty

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Speaker 6: so she is swearing all the time, or dude.

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Speaker 5: The amount of cursing I much love. But also that

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Speaker 5: was the editing process for this was much less like

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Speaker 5: stress and we're just like how many.

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Speaker 4: F bombs are we keeping today? Hearthand emojis.

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Speaker 6: The way Edits goes is you send in a piece

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Speaker 6: and the editors give you like change some stuff, and

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Speaker 6: then I get to look at a new draft and

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00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 6: I get be like, hey, uh, why do you change that?

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Speaker 6: And then we go back and forth over and over

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00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 6: again until eventually it's not up to me anymore. But

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Speaker 6: at one point I did have to I did have

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Speaker 6: to say, actually, femboy is one word correct. It's different

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Speaker 6: from feme space boy and space something specific.

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Speaker 1: And I felt really like I was bringing.

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Speaker 5: I'd like to clarify I was not involved in the

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Speaker 5: grammatical edit of that.

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Speaker 4: There were multiple editors who was hands.

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Speaker 3: Ut as a subject matter expert.

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Speaker 4: What can I say?

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Speaker 6: And then excuse me? Kande nasked, theemboy means something.

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Speaker 8: No.

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Speaker 3: I am so happy that you have someone like Vivian

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Speaker 3: who's able to appreciate drag way more than what I'm

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Speaker 3: ever like able to even though I can like appreciate

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00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,280
Speaker 3: it like on like a conceptual level. Having this like

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00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,920
Speaker 3: complete sincere like engrossment in it is so is so

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Speaker 3: thrilling because a significant portion of this piece is talking

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Speaker 3: about how much Vivian loves trag.

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Speaker 1: Oh my God and he.

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Speaker 5: Much Ellen knows nothing about drag also, so that was

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Speaker 5: like a really good combo for all of us.

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Speaker 7: That was I. I. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I sat down with her and we started talking very

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Speaker 6: very quickly. She brought up RuPaul's drag Race, and I

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Speaker 6: would just like she kept calling it RPDR, which I'm pretty.

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Speaker 1: Sure I've I've told you even get into this my.

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Speaker 6: Sources, Garrison, is that something you call drag race? Have

365
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 6: you heard RPDR? Said out loud, I've never heard this.

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00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 4: No, Okay, okay, whatever. What I'm want.

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Speaker 5: What I'm here to say is as someone who actually

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00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,040
Speaker 5: watches drag Race, Ella, that is actually not that uncommon

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Speaker 5: to refer to it that way.

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Speaker 4: But you know, we had.

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00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,920
Speaker 5: Two different roles as the two trans people whose brains

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00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,760
Speaker 5: were wiped by the story. Ella's job was to actually

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Speaker 5: write the Peace of Mind was to interface with Viviana.

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00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 1: About drag Race.

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Speaker 5: So clearly it all came together the way it was

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00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 5: supposed to do.

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Speaker 6: I get at the very end of our first call,

378
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,919
Speaker 6: I said, you, is there anything else you want to say?

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00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 6: And she talked to me for another fifteen minutes about

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Speaker 6: about drag Race, specifically classic rules.

381
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 1: Classic rules yeah.

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Speaker 6: Like I know, I'm I like sort of about your

383
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 6: dad or about like any of the important things. We

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00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,439
Speaker 6: talked about this as you're like, no, so in season

385
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,640
Speaker 6: fifteen of Drag Race that rules.

386
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Speaker 1: That's so cool, she's the best.

387
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 3: But no, I it's it's so funny that you you

388
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 3: talk about how like there's this there's this caricature of

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Speaker 3: like humorless trans people, which is very funny because like

390
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 3: all of like the biggest shit posters online right now

391
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,960
Speaker 3: are mostly trans women. The trans comedy scene is huge,

392
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Speaker 3: and like this is something that Ivian talks about, like

393
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Speaker 3: spending the COVID lockdown and like online queer communities and

394
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 3: how how like the the like drama and like conflict

395
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 3: in those spaces trains you for how to be like

396
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 3: relief like funny and snappy. How fighting with with like

397
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,520
Speaker 3: like fellow queer teenagers like like prepared you for for that,

398
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,439
Speaker 3: which has like certainly been like my experience.

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Speaker 6: I mean there's a reason you can sort of tell,

400
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,439
Speaker 6: and I'm sure this applies to beyond trans people, but

401
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,440
Speaker 6: you can sort of how which social media you grew

402
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 6: up on, like were if you were a totally tumbler

403
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,199
Speaker 6: teen or a Reddit teen or a four chanteen you

404
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 6: can tell because of your style of fighting and making

405
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 6: jokes changes because it's it's it's such a deeply.

406
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 1: Formative part of it.

407
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 6: And I I don't know what online forums the right

408
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,960
Speaker 6: were on growing up, but they were the wrong ones.

409
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 3: Well a lot of four chan as well.

410
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: Sure, just the not funny parts not funny.

411
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

412
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 3: No, I'm still trying to untrain my like defensive way

413
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,439
Speaker 3: of writing that I learned on Twitter, because it's a

414
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 3: horrible style.

415
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 6: Where right you have to like have like twelve prefaces exactly. Yeah, yeah,

416
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 6: your article one. I am not a racist.

417
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 3: Waffle pancaking the entire time, which is it's weird because

418
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 3: like it's like Twitter does have its own style of

419
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 3: humor which I also like also like picked up on,

420
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,880
Speaker 3: but it also has that defensive style of writing which

421
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,639
Speaker 3: which needs to get untrained. But it is, you know,

422
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,360
Speaker 3: a work, a work in progress.

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Speaker 6: I think it's downstream of Tumblr. I I read to

424
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 6: remain wrong on my stance that the Tumblr porn band

425
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 6: ruined the Internet.

426
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 3: No, absolutely absolutely, I guess I'd like to talk a

427
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 3: little bit more about like the structure of the piece

428
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 3: and how it succeeded so much in putting Vivian as

429
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 3: a subject right because the first half is written in

430
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 3: more of like a traditional like article format to give

431
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 3: context and frame Vivian as like a person. But then

432
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 3: halfway through it switches to like a back and forth interview,

433
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 3: which allows Vivian to just speak for herself. And I

434
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 3: think having both of those and not just one or

435
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 3: the other strengthens the piece entirely, and strengthens like being

436
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 3: able to see Vivian as a complete person because like,

437
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 3: as I'm as, I'm getting the context like for her

438
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 3: life and the political situation in the first half. Then

439
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 3: I get to see how much she reminds me of

440
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 3: like regular twenty something trans girls, and you know, like

441
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 3: half of the friends I have. Though I do disagree

442
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 3: on team Peta. Pete's a bitch boy. It's team Gale

443
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 3: all the way.

444
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 1: Thank you contrary.

445
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 3: All right, all right, all right, I've excited that we

446
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 3: we agree on this, But those those sorts of like

447
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 3: offhand comments and likes, there's other things that like give

448
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 3: you like a you know, a view into into this person.

449
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 3: It's so useful to have, like, you know, like at

450
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 3: least fIF fifty percent of the piece be this like

451
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 3: just straight interview.

452
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 5: We unsurprisingly talked a lot about how we were going

453
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 5: to structure this piece and partially landed on Q and

454
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 5: A format for like we knew this was going to

455
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 5: be a behemoth, like no matter how we tackled it,

456
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 5: given the subject matter, and then ultimately how long the

457
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 5: transcript was, and you know, just like it. There were

458
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 5: many aspects of this that like we were like, okay,

459
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 5: how do we how do we do this in a

460
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 5: way that's going to read well to people, because something

461
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 5: we also think about a lot is like accessibility, Like

462
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 5: young people famously hate reading. Now we but we wanted

463
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 5: this to actually be something that like a young person

464
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 5: could sit down, dash through, still get some like you know,

465
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 5: historical political context out of and still come away being

466
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 5: like haha, team PETA, team Gail or whatever the hell

467
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 5: right and so.

468
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 3: And maybe have like subway surfers on like another phone

469
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 3: at the same time.

470
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 5: Exactly, yes, exactly exactly, And then I would say the

471
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 5: I want ella to talk about the transcript and like

472
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 5: interview stuff, but like the intro I think is probably

473
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 5: where I spent the most of my time editing this piece,

474
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 5: and like adding stuff and a lot of adding stuff.

475
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 5: It ballooned like we wanted this to be lauch shorter

476
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,239
Speaker 5: than it was, and then it just kept feeling like

477
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 5: there were more pieces to really tie it together. But

478
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 5: I would say, like the reason that was the case

479
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 5: is because it was a really hard line to walk

480
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,959
Speaker 5: to acknowledge that, like people would be clicking on this

481
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,479
Speaker 5: in part because of Elon, but that we wanted to

482
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 5: like trick them into coming for Elon but staying for

483
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 5: Vivie and.

484
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it's it's not about Elon, nor like should

485
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 3: it be.

486
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, and so so like like Ellen and I

487
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 5: had a zoom with Vivian and what November was the

488
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 5: first one or was that?

489
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 9: I think?

490
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 5: So yeah, November December to just like so she could

491
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 5: kind of get our vibe and just kind of suss

492
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 5: out if she was willing to consider this at all.

493
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 5: And one of the earliest things she said was like,

494
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 5: I don't really want to talk about him. I don't

495
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 5: want this to be about him, And we were really

496
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 5: down for that, like we don't think that her story

497
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 5: is about him. Ultimately, it felt really important, and it

498
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 5: was also challenging to make sure that we felt like

499
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 5: people were coming away with it from this without like

500
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 5: a garbled interpretation of what the stakes were for her

501
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 5: to be coming forward like we wanted it to be,

502
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 5: especially right now while so much of mainstream media is

503
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 5: really fumbling their coverage of like politics at this moment,

504
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 5: it felt really important to be like.

505
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 3: Super trans politics, especially.

506
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 5: Especially and then also just like all of it. So

507
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 5: like all of it and then especially trans politics.

508
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 4: We just really wanted the intro to be.

509
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 5: Like as strong and also like informative and also like

510
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 5: kind of funny and also like just all the things

511
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 5: because and I would say that probably took the most time.

512
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah, I mean I

513
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 6: think the intro started off as probably an eighth of

514
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 6: the piece, and yeah, now is closer to a half

515
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 6: of the piece.

516
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: And there were so many hands on it. I wrote like.

517
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 6: Sort of a very loose like skeleton of what that

518
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 6: intro ended up being.

519
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 5: And I would say the most like it wasn't that

520
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 5: many people adding text.

521
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: It was mostly means, it was mostly legs.

522
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 6: But part of that is because I mean everything like said,

523
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 6: but also that Musk is currently a high level government

524
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 6: official and is in the news all the time. I mean,

525
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 6: when we started writing, the intro said that Musk had

526
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 6: thirteen children, and then we had to update that twice.

527
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: New kid just dropped.

528
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 9: Yeah.

529
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 7: Over the edit.

530
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 6: Process, things wouldn't stop happening, and then also Vivian wouldn't

531
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 6: stop posting, which was a little bit frustrating.

532
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: At one point I.

533
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 6: Had to DM or I said, Hey, if you get

534
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 6: any more information, can you please just tell me and

535
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 6: not post it on threads And she said, oh, totally.

536
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 4: That girl as a poster post hard hard for sure, But.

537
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think I really love the balance

538
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 6: the piece found it in the end. Early on, when

539
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 6: we were talking about structure, I think I pushed for

540
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 6: more of a standard profile, mostly because you know, then

541
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 6: I get to show off my writing skills more and

542
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 6: I liked to write. But after talking to Vivian, even

543
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 6: after our early pre interview, but certainly after the full

544
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 6: interview where I sat with her for a very long

545
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 6: time over zoom in a fourteen hour time difference, I

546
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 6: immediate it was like, no, if I write this out,

547
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 6: it's going to be mostly dialogue anyway, because her voice

548
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 6: she has, she's so voicy, and it's so fun to

549
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 6: keep it in that voice.

550
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: She's a very very distinctive voice.

551
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and so do you, Ella, and so like

552
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 5: it's like that's really the strength of the piece in

553
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 5: so many ways, is that like people come away with it.

554
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 5: It doesn't feel like you're in the background or like

555
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 5: hiding behind something when you're writing this piece, Like it

556
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 5: very much feels like the success of it is because you.

557
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: Are a part of it.

558
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 5: And The New York Times reported that this was Ella's

559
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 5: first che lance article. So I just wanted to add that,

560
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 5: you know, Ella kinda did her did her big one

561
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 5: with her first article.

562
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 6: Thanks all, this is now everything that big one. The

563
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 6: next fifteen years will be underwhelming.

564
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 3: It's all downstream from here.

565
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 6: Woo, it's not true. Baron Trump, I'm coming for you.

566
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: You're gonna re enroll at NYU exactly.

567
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: They'll never see me coming.

568
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 3: I am waiting for him to get fixed by like

569
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 3: a bisexual she They it's gotta happen, right, No, I

570
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 3: don't think so.

571
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 6: I don't know Obama was like into a bisexual she

572
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 6: they And he's still yeah, bombed the Middle East or whatever.

573
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 3: But no, like like mainstream coverage is just completely failure

574
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: and trans people right now. I got so mad at

575
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: a Washington Post article yesterday that I that I skeedd

576
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: about it something I never do.

577
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 4: Was it the sports one yes, role playing.

578
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 3: After President Donald Trump band transgender our girls from competing

579
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 3: in girls' sports, Virginia high schooler joins the boys team.

580
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 3: She wasn't going to let the president's executive order stop her.

581
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 3: Framed is like a feel good story, fucking infuriating.

582
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 5: And it's so like transparent like and I again, I

583
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 5: feel like I keep.

584
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 4: Bringing the system into the space. I'm really sorry.

585
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 5: One of my like CIS colleagues was like, this is disgusting.

586
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 5: Why did they write this like a feel good story?

587
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 5: And it's like, my thing is is if, like, if

588
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 5: anyone with some amount of criticals thinking skills can see

589
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 5: exactly through what you're doing, why even do it? Like

590
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 5: it's so transparent like the way that that story was written,

591
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 5: because it gets clicked. I mean, I guess we you

592
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 5: know what got clicks was Vivian So I actually don't

593
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 5: know about.

594
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: That, that's true and say that and say that I

595
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: did and I will.

596
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: Do you want to talk about the length of the transcript,

597
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 3: because I am curious how long Vivian talked for.

598
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: Am I am I allowed to say that?

599
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I'm legally Yeah, say, can we explain why?

600
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 5: Uh, when we're not recording, I can explain why.

601
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 6: Okay, I think I got to say most of what

602
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 6: I want to say. I mean, I think Vivian's just

603
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 6: like a delightful person, and I'm really excited for her

604
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 6: that she gets her moment in the spotlight and that

605
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 6: hopefully this like helps her build herself as a public

606
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 6: figure outside of and away from Elon Musk, And she

607
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 6: has all of these aspirations to perform and model, and

608
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 6: I hope she gets to do Her and a Winter

609
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 6: Drag one day soon.

610
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: I love that movie.

611
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: It's a great movie.

612
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 3: Hi Anna wind tour Lex, do you want to plug

613
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 3: your little outlet? Was this teen Vogue?

614
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 10: Oh?

615
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know if anyone's heard. Actually so frequently

616
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 5: people haven't heard of it, So it's actually fine. Yes,

617
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 5: you can find us at teen vague dot com. We

618
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 5: have no paywall, we have a fact checking department. Most

619
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 5: of mainstream media is not doing it like us, if

620
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 5: you consider those two points.

621
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, labor politics, especially teen Vogue's been phenomenal the

622
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: past like eight years.

623
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: Yep, so true.

624
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 4: If you love Kim Kelly, she is our labor columnist,

625
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 4: so comes through.

626
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 5: I also do some of our labor coverage, but like

627
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 5: definitely not to day than Kim does. Yeah, I'm on

628
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 5: the things. I'm on the socials. Yeah, that's it. That's

629
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 5: all I had, Little Ella.

630
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 3: Where can people find you on the worldwide Web?

631
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 6: I'm on on Instagram and actually everything app as Ella

632
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 6: Yurman or Ella dot Yerman on Instagram.

633
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: We're gonna get you on Blue Sky one of these days. Sky,

634
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: we can fix the vibes. I'm on Blue Sky. I

635
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 3: just forget about how to do it?

636
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: Can we?

637
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 6: I suffered through twenty twelve tumbler once. I don't need

638
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 6: to do it again.

639
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 4: That is so not the vibe. I wish it were.

640
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 4: But it's not on Blue Sky.

641
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: No, it's it's more twenty nineteen Twitter.

642
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.

643
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 6: You can also find my show at Going Down TV

644
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 6: on Instagram, Going Down the Show on YouTube, Going Down

645
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 6: Show on Patreon.

646
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 7: I don't know.

647
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 6: I make a transgender daily show. You guys know about it.

648
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 6: New studio looks great, it's so fun. We got to

649
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 6: get you on there. We got to get you to

650
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 6: come hang out.

651
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: Okay, well I will. I will be in town shortly

652
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: so hell yeah.

653
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 9: Oh fun.

654
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 4: I go to the taping so I can crash.

655
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: That'll be fun. You should do it? Hell yeah?

656
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: Are we did we do it?

657
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 6: Yeah?

658
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 10: We're done.

659
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: Hello everybody. It could happen here or here. And this

660
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: is Robert Evans. We're a show about things falling apart,

661
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: and boy howdy, they sure seem to be doing just that,

662
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: as they always are and have been four years.

663
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 11: You know.

664
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: In fact, anticipation of the end times I think is

665
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: probably close to the number one hobby in the United

666
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: States at this point. I suspect if you counted up

667
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: the dollar value of all the collapse themed movies, books,

668
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: prepping gear, monetize social media content, and of course religious

669
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: sects in the country, the apocalypse would be one of

670
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: our big industries. Doomsday prepping alone was an almost one

671
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: point two billion dollar business last year, and it's expected

672
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: to more than double by twenty thirty. Our popular fiction

673
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: can't even imagine a better future right now. Ninety percent

674
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: of modern future media takes place during or shortly after

675
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: an apocalypse. The odd exception today like Bong Juno's recent

676
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: Mickey seventeen is so rooted in trump'st politics that we

677
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: only catch occasional glimpses of anything beyond it. In other words,

678
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: in our fiction, there's no respite from the news. We

679
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: watch a slow motion, self inflicted global economic collapse and

680
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: then relax with shows about mushroom zombies or literal wage

681
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: slaves created by mind control surgery. In other words, it's

682
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: bleak out there. Tomorrow could be the day Trump invokes

683
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: the Insurrection Act or uses the military to occupy Greenland,

684
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: or like one of a dozen equivalent horrors. We all

685
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: just know our coming in some form or another, even

686
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: if no one can say win. And I'm not here

687
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: today to tell you how we're gonna get past all

688
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: of that or fix it, because I don't know. So

689
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: today I'm just here as a merchant of hope. My

690
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: job is to convince you that our species will someday

691
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: get past our bullshit and perhaps even lay claim to

692
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: the stars. And no Elon Musk isn't going to have

693
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: anything to do with that. But in order to convince

694
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: you of all this, I'm going to have to talk

695
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: about a movie. It's called Roar, and it is technically

696
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: a nineteen eighty one comedy adventure film about an American naturalist.

697
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: This guy lives on a nature preserve in Tanzania filled

698
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: with big cats. His family comes to visit at the

699
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: same time as a grant committee shows up to evaluate

700
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: his project, which has an unclear goal. He's apparently just

701
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: trying to prove people and giant cats from all over

702
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: the world can live together, which the movie shows they can't.

703
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: It's really immaterial what happens in the plot. All I

704
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: can tell you is how Wikipedia describes it. I've watched

705
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: this movie dozens of times, and I have very little

706
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: idea what it's supposed to be about. This is because

707
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: in any given scene, the script is only ever a

708
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: vague suggestion, as each scene starts with actors trying to

709
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: read lines and evolves into those same actors trying to

710
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: survive while being mauled by dozens of lions, tigers, and panthers.

711
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: I should probably step back a minute to explain some things.

712
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: Roar is largely the brainchild of Tippy Hedron and her

713
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: husband Noel Marshall. If you're on the younger side, Tippy

714
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: Hedron was the female lead in a little movie called

715
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: The Birds It is a horror film and also an

716
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: early apocalypse flick by Alfred Hitchcock. It's often credited with

717
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: inventing modern horror cinema. Hitchcock himself sexually and psychologically harassed Hedron,

718
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: but his worst actions came during a crucial scene where

719
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: Hedron was attacked by a flock of birds. Up to

720
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: the day of filming, Hitchcock had assured Tippy the birds

721
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: used in this scene would be animatronic, but when the

722
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: time came to shoot it, she spent five days having

723
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: hundreds of live birds hurled at her in huge numbers

724
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: by the crew. Hedron later described it as brutal, ugly,

725
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: and relentless. Carrie Grant, her host star, told her she

726
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: was the bravest woman he'd ever seen. Now, whatever other

727
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: impacts this had on Tippy, she has no discernible fear

728
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: of animals after this point in her life, though she

729
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: really should. Her husband, Noel is a bit more of

730
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: a mystery to me. He was an agent, a producer,

731
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: a film investor, and a serial entrepreneur whose best financial

732
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: decision was putting money mind what became The Exorcist. In

733
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, he and Hedron were in mosam Beaque

734
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 2: while she starred in the film Satan's Harvest, about which

735
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: less is said the better. This is only relevant because

736
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: during their time in Africa, they observed a pride of

737
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: lions lounging about an abandoned home, and this gave them

738
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: an idea. They wanted to make a movie about poaching

739
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: and conservation, something that could use the power of film

740
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: to save these majestic creatures being threatened by humanity. All

741
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: four of their children agreed to star in it and

742
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: to help with production, but there were immediate snags. They

743
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: wanted the film to be set in a big cat sanctuary,

744
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: but actual lion tamers warned them that it was flat

745
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 2: out impossible to keep so many large fee lines together safely.

746
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: This would eventually prove to have been very accurate advice.

747
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 2: After a while, one tamer introduced them to their first

748
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: tame lion, and, for reasons known only to God, he

749
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: suggested to this traumatized movie star and her family of

750
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 2: charmingly deranged Californians that they could just get their own

751
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: big cats and train them by adopting animals confiscated from

752
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: their previous owners, generally sketchy zoos and circuses. So a

753
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: lot of these cats had never known the wild, and

754
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: they'd often been badly mistreated given them. This was the

755
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies. We must assume that some had been confiscated

756
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: property of coke dealers. Tippy and Noll had no professional

757
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: or legal qualifications to care for dozens of big cats

758
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: when the authorities eventually found out there was trouble, although

759
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: since Hedrid and Marshall were rich, they bought their way

760
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: out of said trouble by purchasing a rural compound and

761
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: having a house built specifically for they and their dozens

762
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: of apex predators to live. While lions had inspired the

763
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: initial vision, the compound in California soon filmed with big

764
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: adopted cats of every kind. Tippy and her husband took

765
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: them in and raised them among and around their own children,

766
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 2: who came to see the animals as something between pets

767
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: and family. When they actually started filming the movie that

768
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: became Roar. Making any kind of movie had become secondary

769
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: to the act of caring for these many, many giant,

770
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: traumatized kiddies. As I noted earlier, the plot to Roar

771
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: is kind of immaterial. I've never watched it with the

772
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 2: sound on. I can tell you, though, that none of

773
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: these cats were trained in any really meaningful way, which

774
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: meant that every scene devolved into the same spectacle. The casts,

775
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: surrounded by dozens of giant cats, stumbled through a few

776
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: lines before one or all of the cats began to

777
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: bite and claw them, at which point each scene becomes

778
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: about surviving from one moment to the next. Roar took

779
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: more than five years to film in more than a

780
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: decade to actually make. No cats were harmed during the

781
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: production of this movie, but more humans were injured than

782
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: in any other film production on record. Of the one

783
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty or so cast and crew on Roar,

784
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: more than one hundred suffer significant injury, often more than once.

785
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: Jan Debaut, the cinematographer, had his scalp ripped off by

786
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: a lion, requiring one hundred and twenty stitches. He went

787
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: on to make Speed and Twister. Melanie Griffith, Tippy's daughter

788
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: and a future star herself, left production at one point

789
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 2: because she was worried a big cat might rip her

790
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: face off. She ultimately returned and immediately had a large

791
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: chuntic of her face ripped off. Requiring extensive surgery. This

792
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 2: all sounds horrifying and impossible to justify. But before you

793
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: make a final judgment, I want to remind you of

794
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: two things. One, for all its horrors and severe injuries,

795
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: fewer people were killed on the set of War than

796
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: in Alec Baldwin's recent film Rust. The second thing that

797
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: you must remember is that Roar is a work of

798
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: art on the level of Moby Dick. If you watch

799
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: it enough, among the right people and in the right headspace,

800
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: you can come to a deeper understanding of every facet

801
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: of human existence. I've taken a lot out of it

802
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: over the years. Recently it has convinced me that we

803
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: will one day get over our bullshit and escape the

804
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: present hell that our species seems mired in. I know

805
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: that doesn't make much sense now, but give me some time.

806
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: I'll explain why. But first it's probably time for some ats.

807
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: We're back, and the first thing I need you to

808
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 2: understand about all of these fucking cats is that in

809
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: every mauling caught on tape, and there are dozens of them,

810
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: I see no anger or malice in the actions of

811
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: these cats. I don't even see hunger. It's clear to me,

812
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 2: as a cat owner, that the cats didn't see these people,

813
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: Tippy and her family and the cast and crew, as

814
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: prey or as a threat. If anything, they saw them

815
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: as fellow big cats, cousins and close kin who they

816
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: extend to kind of familiarity and perhaps even a kind

817
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 2: of love that, since they are cats, is expressed primarily

818
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: by batting at them with claws that hit like bowie

819
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: knives embedded in the hood of a speeding camri. If

820
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: you have cats of your own, you understand now. Given

821
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: that nearly every person on this film was badly injured,

822
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: including Tippy who got gang green from infected cat wounds,

823
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 2: and all of her children, you might feel inclined to

824
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: judge who are a knol or both of them for

825
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: risking their kids lives to make this insane movie. I

826
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: understand the impulse, but I believe it to be an error.

827
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: The first thing you need to see to understand the

828
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: deeper dynamics going on with War is a picture from

829
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: a Playboy magazine photoshoot of Tippy's husband and co star,

830
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: Noel Marshall. He's in his office on his typewriter and

831
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: this fully grown male lion gets up on his desk

832
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: because it wants attention again normal cat behavior, And despite

833
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: the best efforts of this animal, who has to weigh

834
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 2: five hundred pounds, Noel Marshall won't stop focusing on his work,

835
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: and so the cat inches away from his face roars.

836
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: The sound of a male lion's roar is deeply imprinted

837
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: on all of us, an epigenetic memory passed down by

838
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: the handful of our ancestors who heard the sound up

839
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: close and lived to tell the tale. It has such

840
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 2: a foundational impact on our mind that Metro Goldwyn Meyer

841
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: the film studio, used it to open every movie they

842
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: made from nineteen twenty eight on. I believe they did

843
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 2: this because the sound is a sort of hack to

844
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: compel our attention. It pulls an audience out of whatever

845
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 2: state of mind dominates their outside lives and makes them

846
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: more attentive to the film that is to come. And

847
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: so the first thing you need to understand about the

848
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: people who made Roar is that Marshall, upon having a

849
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: living adult lion inches from his face roar, gives the

850
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: creature a look that says, hey, man, can you give

851
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 2: me a second. I'm like, I'm in the middle of something.

852
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: I bring this up so that you will understand that

853
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 2: these were not people operating on anything close to the

854
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: same wavelength as you and I. Their lives and their

855
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: choices are to outsiders inconceivable. There's another great photo from

856
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 2: the set of that Playboy shoot. While the camera people

857
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: roamed the Heddroom compound, one of them caught a shot

858
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: of Tippy's adolescent daughter, Melanie, jumping into a pool. An

859
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: adult male lion, which he must have considered to be

860
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: in some way a member of the family, as this

861
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: girl passing by in the corner of its eye, and

862
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: that motion ignites an instinct inside it, so like any

863
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: cat of that size in the same situation, it reaches

864
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: out to bite her. Afterwards, the Hedron family and the

865
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: cast and crew had complicated feelings about what happened that

866
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 2: extended to the present day. Tippy divorced Marshall almost as

867
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: soon as the filming finally wrapped. She is alleged that

868
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: while Roar was being made, he utterly ignored her well being.

869
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: She also does not seem to have ever seriously considered leaving.

870
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: She later wrote that she quote was into it every

871
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: bit as much as he was, and that production was

872
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: an obsessive, addictive drama. John Mitchell, Nol's son, who acted

873
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: in the movie and like everyone else, was mauled repeatedly,

874
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,959
Speaker 2: came to own the rights to Roar when his dad

875
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: died in twenty ten. Dad was a fucking asshole to

876
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: do that to his family, he said recently. He also

877
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 2: said this, it was amazing to live through that. I

878
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: should have died many times, but I kind of want

879
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: to do it again. If you have any friends or

880
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 2: family who have survived extended periods of every combat, there's

881
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: a good chance they may have expressed a variation of

882
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: the same feeling. This is because trauma is sometimes a

883
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 2: drug taking. It can be more than just hell. It's

884
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: often also a high, which is one thing that drives

885
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: a lot of people crazy. I need to take a

886
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: moment away from Rohar to talk about some people that

887
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 2: I met in twenty seventeen in Iraq during the desperate

888
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: and ferocious urban combat against Isis. The closer I drew

889
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: to the front, the more guys I met who were

890
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: elite veterans of the Iraqi Special Forces. They did the

891
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 2: bulk of the fighting. These were mostly young men ranging

892
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: from the tail end of their teens to their twenties.

893
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: Many had grown up in places like Fallujah fighting from

894
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: the time they were seven or eight, sometimes younger, they'd

895
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: been born into the US occupation. In many cases, their

896
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 2: earliest memories were as runners, ferrying supplies and information to

897
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: the older men and teenage boys who did most of

898
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: the fighting. When the opportunity presented itself, they sometimes dropped

899
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: grenades or improvised explosive devices on US troops, most of

900
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 2: whom were teenagers themselves.

901
00:42:59,600 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 5: Now.

902
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 2: They fought against ISIS in close quarters, building to building

903
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: a few weeks at a time. Periodically, they'd rotate off

904
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: the front and would go to Urbil an hour or

905
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 2: two away. Many of them were gangsters in their spare time,

906
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: running drugs and guns and brothels. They spent their days

907
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: off in a drunken haze of Turkish amphetamines. Then they

908
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: would drive back to the front in new, brightly colored

909
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: Mustangs and dodged chargers. The trunks fold to bursting with

910
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 2: so many machine guns and rocket launchers they could only

911
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: be closed with bungee cords. The guns and rockets were

912
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: useful at a distance to soften up enemy positions, and

913
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: the impossibly dense warrenlike urban environment of Mosl's old city.

914
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: In every building, on every block, the fighting terminated with

915
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: door to door, room to room battles, where the most

916
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 2: useful weapons were hand grenades, combat knives, and pistols in

917
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 2: that order. I don't know if any of these guys were,

918
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: at that point that I met them, capable of feeling

919
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: what Uuri would recognize as fear. These were the men

920
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: and boys whose bodies formed the cutting edge of the

921
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: fighting against Isis and Mosl on occasion when they kidnapped Ice.

922
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: As fighters, some of them committed war crimes with the

923
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: ease and with as much thought as you and I

924
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: give to breathing. This is bad, of course, unforgivable, but

925
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 2: I've never really given much thought to judging them for it.

926
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: Where would I even start. A thing I've come to

927
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 2: understand in my travels is that human beings are capable

928
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: of contorting themselves into the most incredible shapes in order

929
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: to fit into the times they're forced to live in.

930
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: This has been the story of our entire long journey

931
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: on this earth, and if there is one reason our

932
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: species has survived above all the others, it is our

933
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: capacity for infinite variety and infinite contexts. We can make

934
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: ourselves into anything if we're given the right incentives, and

935
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 2: to an extent, you can't judge individual humans without judging

936
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: the incentives the world we collectively create presents for them.

937
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 2: We evolved, and we still live in a world where

938
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: trauma and pain are inevitable, and those of us who

939
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: survive the worst things that life can throw at us

940
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: tend to become addicted, sometimes to the cause of the trauma,

941
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: but nearly always to the people we experience it with.

942
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 2: This is why the cast and crew of Roar often

943
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: reported feeling almost addicted to spending time among these gigantic predators,

944
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: and it's why many kept coming back despite being repeatedly maimed.

945
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: Roar happened because the core cast and crew exhibited radical

946
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: empathy for roughly one hundred and forty large cats and

947
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: for each other, and almost exercised zero critical judgment beyond

948
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 2: that point. Now, I will understand if you still feel

949
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 2: that nothing could justify the decision of two parents to

950
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: risk their children's lives in such folly. And I know

951
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: this essay is supposed to be my ultimate enduring optimism

952
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: about mankind's potential, and I'm going to get to that,

953
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: but you know, we still live in twenty twenty five.

954
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: So first, here's ads. So here's my best step at

955
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 2: explaining why I find RAR inspirational. There's a scene about

956
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: three quarters of the way through this movie. After roughly

957
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 2: an hour straight of watching the Hedron, Marshall family and

958
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 2: their friends get repeatedly mulled for real by giant cats.

959
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 2: And in this scene, John Marshall finds a dirt bike

960
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: and engineers a scenario that I am certain has never

961
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 2: happened before or since in the history of this planet.

962
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: He rides away from the home where his family is

963
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: trapped and draw several dozen lions, panthers, and tigers away

964
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 2: by making them chase him. The cats assume this is

965
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 2: a game and repeatedly try to murder or maim him,

966
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 2: but he continues building up speed in an ever greater

967
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: tale of the most lethal killing machines to evolve on

968
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: this planet. You can see from the look in John's

969
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 2: eyes in this scene that he has no idea. If

970
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 2: he seconds away from death, it would have been physically

971
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 2: impossible to stop or control this number of giant cats.

972
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: The only reason this number and variety of lions, panthers,

973
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 2: and tigers would ever have existed together at any previous

974
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: point in world history, would have been across a distance

975
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: of thousands of miles of rugged wilderness. But thanks to

976
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: Tippean Knowles's insane dream, and thanks to the deranged and

977
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 2: utterly unjustifiable commit of many of the crew and their family,

978
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 2: a moment of utter novelty occurs where the singular assortment

979
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 2: of big cats watches as a man fleeing in terror

980
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 2: from them on a dirt bike does one of the

981
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 2: sickest jumps in film history and lands directly into a river,

982
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: and then keeps riding until he is charged by a

983
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: juvenile African elephant, which the Adrons also kept on their property.

984
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 2: In its uniqueness, this moment has to rival, if not exceed,

985
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: the Moon landing. After all, considerably more men have stepped

986
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 2: foot on the Moon than have achieved what John Marshall

987
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: does in this scene, although some of that may be

988
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: due to the fact that it is extremely illegal for

989
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: anyone today to even try. And this is why I

990
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: encourage you to watch Roar My Dear Friends during the

991
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: Dark Times, not because it's a good movie, but because

992
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: it reveals what is best about humanity, What piece of

993
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: art could better illustrate the infinite possibilities within us. If

994
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 2: a group of human beings can learn to live among

995
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: lions and tigers, I fight the constant guarantee of severe

996
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: injury without really understanding why is it's so mad to

997
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: think that perhaps we two can transcend the barbarities of

998
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 2: our age and become something better, or at least something

999
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: far stranger than money grubbing fascists. I don't know how

1000
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: we escape the darkness that seems to encroach a bit

1001
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: further with each passing day, but I do know this,

1002
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 2: If we can make war, we can do anything.

1003
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 7: Welcome to ikodapa Here Podcasts, where here is the rapidly

1004
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 7: encroaching rise of fascism. My name is mir Wong, and

1005
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 7: one of the major vectors of fascism that we have

1006
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 7: been covering on this show has been the increase in

1007
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 7: just effectively straight up black baggings by ICE and immigration's

1008
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 7: enforcement in general. We have spent a good amount of

1009
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 7: time covering a bunch of different angles of this, but

1010
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 7: there is another incredibly distressing angle that we have not

1011
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 7: covered as much yet, which is their targeting of labor

1012
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 7: organizers and with me to talk about that is Mark

1013
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 7: Medina from Portland Jobs with Justice and the Coalition of

1014
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 7: Independent Unions And yeah, Mark, welcome to the show.

1015
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 8: Hi, thanks for having me.

1016
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. So one of

1017
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 7: the most pressing sort of black baggings that's happened fairly

1018
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 7: recently is ICE's kidnapping of Alfredo Juareze Ferino, otherwise known

1019
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 7: as Lelo. Can you tell us about sort of his

1020
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 7: work and the projects he's been doing and familius you

1021
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 7: need us pro Justicia.

1022
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 8: Yeah. So it's been a very disheartening and scary couple

1023
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 8: of weeks since it's happened, because this opens up a

1024
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 8: new power for the state to go after organizers, to

1025
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 8: go after workers and the most underprivileged in our society

1026
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 8: in a way that I suppose we all expected. But

1027
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 8: now that we see it, now that we see it happening,

1028
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 8: now that we see it happening to people that we

1029
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 8: know in our community, it's becoming apparent there is no

1030
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 8: turning back from the idea that we have to be

1031
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 8: able to take this on head first. We as activists,

1032
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 8: as organizers, have to look at this and see it

1033
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 8: as an actual thing in our day to day that

1034
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 8: we have to combat and incorporate into our organizing. So

1035
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 8: maybe it might be a little helpful to start off

1036
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 8: with a little bit of a backstory on if I

1037
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 8: mean this need us by Lassay. So the union has

1038
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 8: its origins going back to twenty thirteen. The area in

1039
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 8: which they organize, the Bellingham or the Washington walkingscadget areas,

1040
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 8: has a very particular type of immigrant community there. Lelo

1041
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 8: himself is of Mextco background. There's a lot of indigenous

1042
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 8: Mexican populations in the region. It also want to have

1043
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 8: long routes. A lot of these people go back generations,

1044
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 8: have been here for quite some time. This area also

1045
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 8: happens to be very particularly with the non Hispanic population,

1046
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 8: particularly the white population, a very conservative, particularly conservative for

1047
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 8: the area. It's one of the very few areas of

1048
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 8: Northwest that Donald Trump came to visit. It's an area

1049
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 8: that has had repeated attacks on then imbric community. And

1050
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 8: so it's in this context that workers are organizing in

1051
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 8: twenty thirteen for this first independent union. And two it's

1052
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 8: important to mention the independent part of it. A lot

1053
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 8: of the organizers from the start of this of the

1054
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 8: union came from a tradition of the United farm Workers

1055
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 8: in California. They some of them worked with such jabas

1056
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 8: in the heyday of the United farm Workers. And in

1057
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 8: the years and decades since then, since the Dolana boycotts

1058
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 8: and other things, there's been a growing rift of what

1059
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 8: the next steps should be. And I think that for

1060
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 8: a lot of farm workers, because they don't organize under

1061
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 8: the general labor law that we have for most workers,

1062
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 8: there is a sort of patchwork system for how farm

1063
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 8: working organizing happens in the United States that's dependent upon

1064
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 8: different states and legislatures, and for the most part, with

1065
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 8: the exception of only two states, farm workers don't have

1066
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 8: the same kind of protections that regular workers generally in

1067
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 8: the society have for union recognition for collective bargaining. Only

1068
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 8: Washington and New York at the moment, I believe, have

1069
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 8: laws that allow for elections for farm worker unions, and

1070
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 8: there's a very particular reason for that being the case.

1071
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 8: Farm workers were excluded from the Wagner Act for having

1072
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 8: general labor rights in the nineteen thirties because precisely it

1073
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,439
Speaker 8: was seen as immigrant labor and immigrants were not seen

1074
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 8: as meriting the same rights as white Americans in the

1075
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 8: same way that domestic workers were removed because I was

1076
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 8: seen at the time as black labor. So it has

1077
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 8: its roots and racism.

1078
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that's something that you know, like you can

1079
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 7: tie that exclusion, like there's a straight line between that

1080
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 7: and Japanese and tournaments, which also to a large extent,

1081
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 7: is about land seizure and this sort of like fusion

1082
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 7: of racism, specifically racism in the farming sector with the

1083
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 7: tax and labor rights and with this desire to just

1084
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 7: sort of seize literally the lands and labor from non

1085
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 7: white people.

1086
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1087
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, So it's a long and bleak history.

1088
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 8: No, absolutely, and I'm sure your audience is well aware

1089
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 8: of a lot of these subject matter. It is a

1090
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 8: bleak history. And it wasn't until groups like the United

1091
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 8: farm Workers in the sixties and the seventies. I they

1092
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 8: began to create the possibility for something new for the

1093
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 8: Hispanic community. It was United farm Workers that built not

1094
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 8: just a lot of solidarity with other immigrant groups in

1095
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 8: the California area, but they also built a sense of

1096
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 8: pride and identity and belonging for a lot of communities.

1097
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 8: I grew up in Bluid High It's East Los Angeles. Says

1098
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 8: that Travis and Knight farm worker murals are everywhere. You know,

1099
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 8: me and my friends would often joke, as said Javis

1100
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 8: is like the patron Saints. It is Los Angeles, even

1101
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 8: though it's nowhere near Delano. And there's a reason for that.

1102
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 8: I think that a lot of us looked up to

1103
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 8: the United farm Workers. We looked up to the farm

1104
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 8: worker Union movement, and we saw in them our heroes,

1105
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 8: our modern day heroes. We saw them. We saw people

1106
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 8: who said, be proud to be brown. You know, there's

1107
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 8: a courage that comes from that history. The union movement

1108
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 8: that then sprung up in twenty thirteen in the Bellingham

1109
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 8: Northern Washington area was coming out of that milieu. They

1110
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 8: understood that background, they understood that history, but they also

1111
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 8: understood that there was very little organizing in the region.

1112
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 8: There was a lot of fear in the region. It's

1113
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 8: very difficult to organize farm workers. To have access to

1114
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 8: a lot of these areas. You have to cross just

1115
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 8: private property for quite some time before you reach the

1116
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 8: first farm workers, and it becomes very very difficult to

1117
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 8: have organizing happen and it's intentional that way. The rise

1118
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 8: and farmers unions that happened in the sixties and seventies

1119
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 8: had a massive plummet by the time they begin into

1120
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 8: the nineteen two thousands, and so these workers had heard

1121
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 8: these stories, had heard by this legacy, but had been

1122
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 8: essentially deliver with increasing frustration, racist behavior by bosses, lower

1123
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 8: and lower pay, and the use of certain types of

1124
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 8: immigrants to try to scab their jobs. It be the

1125
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 8: capitalist class using one type of worker against another type

1126
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 8: of worker, picking them against each other. It's in this

1127
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 8: context in twenty thirteen that this union starts to form.

1128
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 8: They go public at that time period, they call for recognition,

1129
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 8: and they started taking action directly, and they organized this

1130
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 8: years and years long boycott campaign to gain recognition, to

1131
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 8: get the employer to start bargaining. And after years and

1132
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 8: years of this and coourt battles and the employer trying

1133
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 8: to lay everyone off and hire certain types of newer

1134
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 8: immigrants coming in to replace all of them, putting one

1135
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 8: worker against another, all these types of maneuvers, by twenty seventeen,

1136
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 8: these workers win a contract, and the philosophy of the

1137
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 8: union since then has been not just to grow this union,

1138
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 8: but also for them to be able to stand on

1139
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 8: their own two feet. Their idea is that they are

1140
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 8: very proud of their independent nature of that union. They're

1141
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 8: not part of the afl CIO, they're not part of

1142
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 8: the Nice farm Workers, They're not part of any other organization.

1143
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 8: You know, when I spoke to some of their leaders

1144
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:29,959
Speaker 8: last year, one of the things that came to mind

1145
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 8: was they brought up a quote from Eugene Debts, the

1146
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 8: notion of like, if we were to lead you into

1147
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 8: the promised Land, someone else would just lead out. And

1148
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 8: the notion of their union is we have to be

1149
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 8: able to stand on our two feet. We can't rely

1150
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 8: on anyone else, because if they promise us things today tomorrow,

1151
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 8: they'll hold something over us. And so the notion that

1152
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 8: farm workers lead this movement and leave this union is

1153
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 8: an incredibly powerful statement of what working class people can do.

1154
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 8: The kinds of workers that everyone else kinds of looks at.

1155
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 8: They could never do it. These you know, these workers

1156
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 8: could never handle this kind of level of struggle and

1157
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 8: couldn't do this kind of organization have built one of

1158
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 8: the most powerful independent farm worker unions in the West Coast,

1159
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 8: Lelo Alfredo Lelo was a founding member of this union.

1160
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 8: He was a farm worker studying at the age of twelve,

1161
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 8: and since then devoted his entire life organizing to helping workers,

1162
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 8: to being the kind of person who commits himself to

1163
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 8: the work of making the world a better place than

1164
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 8: you found it. You know, at twenty five, he is

1165
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,959
Speaker 8: significantly younger than me. And when I think of people

1166
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 8: who I look up to, who I think as Wow,

1167
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 8: when I grew up, I want to be someone like that,

1168
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 8: I think of Lelo.

1169
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1170
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 8: I have met little many of times over the years.

1171
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 8: He's a very soft spoken, very thoughtful type of person.

1172
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 8: And yeah, I think that the labor movement owes him

1173
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 8: a bit of a debt. Now it is time that

1174
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,439
Speaker 8: we as a whole stand up for him.

1175
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1176
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, we are going to go to ads regrettably, and

1177
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 7: then when we come back we are going to start

1178
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 7: talking I think a bit more about the repression we

1179
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 7: are back. So obviously then this is this is a

1180
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 7: part of the story that you've been telling, the sort

1181
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 7: of the sort of capitalist class out in Bellingham, and

1182
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 7: you know, the sort of I mean, this has been

1183
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 7: true of the broader capitalist class since it's kind of

1184
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 7: organizing starting like has been trying to break these unions

1185
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,919
Speaker 7: this entire time. You know, that has been a major

1186
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 7: focus of everything that they've been doing. And you know,

1187
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,439
Speaker 7: what we're seeing right now seems like a massive sort

1188
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 7: of escalation in the degree of repression. So, yeah, can

1189
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 7: we talk about the recent black bagging Alilo and yeah,

1190
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 7: and sort of what happens and where we go from there.

1191
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 8: Yeah. The weaponization of the state to go after immigrants

1192
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 8: and go after activists is I'm sure to your audist

1193
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 8: is well known. Is nothing yet and it no knows

1194
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 8: parties affiliation. The Democratic administrations have been doing this to

1195
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 8: immigrant communities, and I've been using it to silence political activists.

1196
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 8: The Trump administration, however, is now doing this on a

1197
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 8: level that is, at least to a lot of us

1198
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 8: unheard of in the modern day, which is to go

1199
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 8: after specific union leaders in the labor movement, to go

1200
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 8: after civil rights leaders. You've seen this happen also when

1201
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 8: it comes to Palistinian rights activists around the country. The

1202
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 8: idea is pretty simple to silence the loudest voices, to

1203
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 8: cut to leadership from the movement. On March twenty fifth,

1204
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 8: Alfredo Lelo Barres was dropping off his girlfriend at a

1205
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 8: nearby farm for work and was accosted by ICE agents

1206
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 8: as he was exercising his rights or what he thought

1207
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 8: his rights were at the time because of the regime,

1208
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 8: who knows what your rights are. They broke his window,

1209
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 8: they dragged him out of his car. You know, this

1210
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,919
Speaker 8: was obviously very traumatic incident, but also is a real

1211
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 8: shock to the union to see to see the community

1212
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 8: group that works with the union, and to the local

1213
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 8: Hispanic community in the area. Within hours of that, workers

1214
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 8: organizers community went to move to try to carry a response,

1215
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 8: knowing that time was of the essence. It was then

1216
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 8: taken to a local life facility. He's now since been

1217
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 8: moved to a detention center in Tacoma, Washington. A large

1218
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 8: rally of hundreds took place calling for his immediate release.

1219
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 8: What we know now seemingly is that at the very

1220
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 8: last minute apologies I forget the exact day, but it

1221
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 8: was within a couple of days of the kidnapping, Lelo

1222
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 8: was pulled off. He has an automatic stay of deportation

1223
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 8: in place at this point, no longer has any legal

1224
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 8: authority to remove Lelo. If this came at the last minute.

1225
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 8: He was in line for deportation and was moved at

1226
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 8: the very last minute. However, while this is good news,

1227
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 8: this is not good for someone's personal health and well being.

1228
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 8: These are massively cramped facilities, underfunded facilities. You know, there's

1229
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 8: horror stories around the country of the conditions in some

1230
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 8: of these places. Every day that Lelo is stuck behind

1231
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 8: these prison walls is an injustice to our movement.

1232
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I think the thing it immediately reminds me

1233
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 7: of is the story of Thomas Paine, who was like

1234
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 7: slated to be executed in the French Revolution and they didn't.

1235
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 7: They didn't execute him because his door was opened, so

1236
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 7: they didn't see the slash line on the cell that

1237
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 7: was supposed to execute him. And then like the next

1238
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 7: day the reign of terror ended with the coup against

1239
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 7: the Jacobins. There rits me a lot of that, but

1240
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 7: you know, but on the other hand, here's the thing.

1241
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 7: We have gotten the stay of the deportation, but we

1242
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 7: have not we have not brought down.

1243
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 12: The rate of terror yet.

1244
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 8: So yeah, and I would hope does it have to

1245
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 8: way four more years for that one?

1246
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 7: Yeah? Good lord, good lord? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so

1247
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 7: let's let's talk a bit about So. I mean, obviously,

1248
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 7: you know what we're seeing here and this this is

1249
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 7: you know, the connection that you made is we're seeing

1250
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 7: just on a sort of broad scale, the use of

1251
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 7: the state and of the sort of black bagging and

1252
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 7: of these deportations as a way to target organizers from

1253
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 7: Palestine to label organizers. That's only going to expand as

1254
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 7: this goes on. And I think something critical about you know,

1255
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 7: one of the first things you were saying here about

1256
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 7: the fact that they're targeting sort of the loudest voices

1257
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 7: in the community. And I think a big part of

1258
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 7: this is that they know that their position isn't as

1259
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 7: strong as they're making it out to be. Right, Like

1260
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 7: they have just detonated a nuke across the entire economy.

1261
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 7: They are systemically going through and individually fucking over every

1262
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 7: single group of people who are supposed to be their base.

1263
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 7: And I think part of what they're doing is they're

1264
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 7: trying to spread sort of raw terror and spread fear

1265
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 7: and you know, and and attack the critical infrastructure of

1266
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 7: organizing because they want to make it look like resisting

1267
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 7: them as impossible and that's just not true. They can be.

1268
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1269
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 8: Absolutely. I think that oftentimes, particularly fascistic power wants and

1270
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 8: needs to present itself as inevitable, as overwhelming, and impossible

1271
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 8: to defeat, in part because it's meant to hide the

1272
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 8: ultimate weakness of some of these powers. The actual power

1273
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 8: that these farm workers showed against the Sukuma farms when

1274
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 8: they went on strike and boycotted for years and years

1275
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 8: and years out in the fields, talking to workers for

1276
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 8: years and years and years. It showed that no matter

1277
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 8: how powerful some of these companies are, some of the

1278
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 8: CEOs are that the power of workers overwhelmed and the

1279
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 8: power solidarity overwhelms. And they know that going after leadership,

1280
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 8: going after some of the most some of the bravest

1281
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 8: people in our movement is a way of trying to

1282
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 8: hit the movement at the knees and trying to convince

1283
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 8: folks that struggle is impossible. But I think it is

1284
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 8: important to remember that what we're doing, the struggle now,

1285
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 8: the response. This is how we show the population the world,

1286
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 8: you know, our communities, that they are not inevitable, it

1287
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 8: is not insurmountable and so and by taking action responding

1288
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 8: to the kinds of fascistic behaviors of the state. We

1289
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 8: show how people the state can be at times, even

1290
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 8: when it seems it's most treacherous and awful.

1291
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I think a lot of times when we

1292
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 7: win fights, it can be very very hard to actually

1293
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 7: see our victory because we don't see the world that

1294
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 7: could have been if we didn't fight. And that's the

1295
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 7: thing I think about with the First Ship administration. We're

1296
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 7: in the First Hump administration. They absolutely wanted to be

1297
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 7: doing this kind of shit, and they were able to

1298
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 7: do a lot of terrible stuff, but they weren't able

1299
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 7: to sort of go this far because of the kind

1300
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 7: of mass mobilizations that shut down a lot of the

1301
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 7: kinds of things that they wanted to do. And I

1302
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 7: think that's a kind of victory that is hard to

1303
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 7: kind of like process because all we see is, you know,

1304
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 7: the suffering that did happen, and we can never see

1305
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 7: an image of like all of the people you know,

1306
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 7: who got to continue living their lives because we stop them,

1307
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 7: And that I think is another sort of powerful tool here.

1308
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 7: But also we do have an opportunity to make sure

1309
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 7: that we can beat them right here, right now in

1310
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 7: a way that's very very public, and.

1311
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 8: That's a question mark about that in my mind, because

1312
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 8: you know, my entire adult life, I've heard stories of

1313
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 8: the state repression against union organizers in the twenties and

1314
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 8: the thirties and the forties. You hear the stories if

1315
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:43,439
Speaker 8: you're an organizer, about all the violent eras and how

1316
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 8: hard it was in the past, and we forget that

1317
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 8: a lot of that does continue on. It's just not

1318
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 8: where you would imagine it where a lot of American

1319
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 8: workers imagine it, and so they don't see it in

1320
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 8: their shops and their factories and their unions. But this

1321
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 8: right here is an attack on the labor movement. Had

1322
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 8: this been the head of you know, the Electricians Union,

1323
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 8: the head of the SCIU, Had this been an attack

1324
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 8: on what a lot of America would view as the

1325
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 8: mainstream labor movement, this would be headlines. Yeah. The fact

1326
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 8: that it isn't shows, and that it has been so

1327
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 8: much work to try to get attention to a union

1328
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 8: leader being picked up and kidnapped by the state should

1329
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 8: be you know, a blaring red light on the labor

1330
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 8: movement to take action immediately.

1331
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1332
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 8: I hope that what we're doing is the first steps

1333
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 8: to that, because you know, this is one of those moments.

1334
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 8: If you know, they went after the trade unions unionists

1335
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 8: and I was not a trade unionist. Well, going after

1336
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 8: the farm workers, I am not a farm worker. It

1337
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 8: isn't comment upon us morally to stand up for one

1338
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:46,439
Speaker 8: another at this point in time.

1339
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I think there's been a real kind of

1340
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 7: real cowardice and a real sort of appeasement of power,

1341
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 7: and a real demonstration of where a lot of these

1342
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 7: union's politics are. I mean, we saw the way that

1343
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 7: the Teamsters like leadership just I mean just you know,

1344
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 7: openly went to speak at the R and C.

1345
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 6: Right.

1346
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 7: We've been seeing the UAW, which traditionally has had better

1347
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 7: like immigration politics in the last few years than a

1348
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 7: lot of these other sort of mainstream unions, but has

1349
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 7: also been sort of going to bat for Trump's tariff,

1350
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 7: Like I've been calling you the turf tariffs tariffs because

1351
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 7: of the wages of transphobia. But you know, they've been

1352
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 7: going to bat for like the turf tariffs, right, And

1353
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 7: that I think is part of why they've been sort

1354
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 7: of unable to like respond to this moment, and why

1355
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 7: they've been unable to respond to the past fucking fifty

1356
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 7: years of moments, which is that like, if you're sort

1357
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 7: of like labor politics is rooted in this sort of

1358
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 7: like American nationalist, like American jobs for American workers stuff, right,

1359
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 7: and it's not actually based in the power of workers

1360
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 7: and the power of workers everywhere, then you're going to lose.

1361
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 7: It's it's not just sort of reactionary politics also it

1362
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 7: is it's also bad politics, and we're seeing it right now.

1363
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think that the history of labor movement

1364
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 8: has been an interesting one in my adult life because

1365
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 8: you know, I'm as pro liber as they come. However,

1366
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 8: the history of labor movement in the modern day has

1367
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 8: been a fascinating one. It is one that when it

1368
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 8: came to large strikes, was that its natier at the

1369
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 8: mid and late two thousands. I think at one point

1370
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 8: it was just over a dozen strikes over two thousand workers.

1371
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 8: And you compare that to the high of the labor

1372
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 8: movement in the forties and the fifties when it was

1373
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 8: in the hundreds, and you've had strike actions all the time,

1374
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 8: and that is what builds so much at what we

1375
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 8: call the middle class for some And it was this

1376
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 8: really historic moment at the time, and we're in a

1377
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 8: historic moment now where I think the labor movement for

1378
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 8: so long from that point, has been trying. Workers from

1379
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 8: the rank and file have been trying to kind of

1380
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 8: reshape the labor movement in the thoughts and the ideas

1381
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 8: of the new But it comes with its own regressive setbacks,

1382
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:51,600
Speaker 8: and it comes with its own shortcomings of leadership. You know,

1383
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:55,719
Speaker 8: the teams tours making statements around immigration rights was a

1384
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 8: very unfortunate thing to be said in the modern day.

1385
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 8: In the modern context, I think that you know, other

1386
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 8: unions seemingly looking to you know, circle the wagons rather

1387
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 8: than take the risks that need to happen in this

1388
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 8: current time has really shown a lack of imagination from

1389
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 8: some of the mainstream unions. And the thing is, I

1390
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 8: hope for the best for them. I want them to

1391
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,640
Speaker 8: succeed and I want them to get better because the

1392
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 8: world is a better place we're having these larger unions. However,

1393
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 8: if the independent movements, the independent unions like Familias who

1394
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,799
Speaker 8: need this Quo Thesia, like these other unions in the region,

1395
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 8: that can be the kind of canary in the coal mine,

1396
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 8: the kind of labs of experimentation that can be the

1397
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 8: first people out to do some of the most radical

1398
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 8: and interesting and worker centric type of movement building and messaging. Like,

1399
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 8: I think there is the reason why it was the

1400
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 8: coalition of independent unions here in the Pacific Northwest that

1401
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 8: came up with the notion of having transity of solidarity,

1402
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 8: this idea of patterning contracts together to have inclusive and

1403
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 8: pre for trans workers and having that be a thing

1404
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 8: that unions take up together. I think that it's incredibly

1405
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 8: notable that it's group's life, I mean us who need

1406
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 8: as Yeah, they carry out this long years long boycott

1407
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 8: and created a model by which other workers in the

1408
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 8: region can not just organize themselves, but organize themselves on

1409
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 8: a low cost, member led democratic model. I think it's

1410
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 8: important to see that sometimes the large unions have to

1411
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:32,200
Speaker 8: start looking at some of the radical pragmatism that comes

1412
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 8: from the necessities of these smaller independent campaigns.

1413
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:37,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I mean before we go to ads. I

1414
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 7: think the last thing I want to say there is, like,

1415
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 7: you know, the other option they have is to do

1416
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 7: the option of what the unions didn't during the rise

1417
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 7: of the Nazis, which is like dream the rise of

1418
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 7: the Nazis the unions fell in line, right, They fell

1419
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 7: in line because they were scared and they thought that

1420
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 7: they could fucking win benefits from it. And you know,

1421
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:54,679
Speaker 7: it saved some of them, like they were a few

1422
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 7: of those people like just became Nazis, but the rest

1423
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 7: of them got fucking liquidated anyways. So those are your options, right,

1424
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 7: You either stand and fight now with the independent unions,

1425
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 7: or you become part of the regime and eventually get liquidated.

1426
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 7: When you know, Trump in like fucking two and a

1427
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 7: half years science executive order that says unions are illegal

1428
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:14,839
Speaker 7: or whatever.

1429
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, and what does that do at the end of

1430
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 8: the day, even if it staves, even if you're the

1431
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 8: head of some of these larger unions. And by working

1432
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 8: with the administrative the administration today, by selling your soul,

1433
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,719
Speaker 8: by selling the movement out, you give up the moral

1434
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 8: high ground of our movement, of our working class democratic movement. Yeah,

1435
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 8: you give it up for another generation. Then when workers,

1436
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 8: when people look myself growing up, looking at images of

1437
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 8: the United farm Workers, there are similar I presume there

1438
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 8: are similar people in the United States growing up who

1439
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 8: look that way up to the Unitedado Workers, look that

1440
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 8: way up to the Teachers' Union. What happens to those children,

1441
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 8: to those kids, those young people who want to be

1442
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 8: the next leadership, the next era of the labor movement,

1443
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,240
Speaker 8: they will not look at us as having the moral

1444
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 8: high ground. We give that up. We give our role

1445
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 8: in history, our moral role in history to fight with

1446
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 8: a working class when we do things like this.

1447
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, and what you become and set is just another

1448
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 7: extension of the state. You become like one of like

1449
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 7: the national syndicates and like Franco of Spain. And and

1450
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 7: what that does to you is people people don't look

1451
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 7: at you in a generation as a labor movement. They

1452
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,880
Speaker 7: look at you as just another arm of a fascist regime.

1453
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 7: And it doesn't have to be like that, It really doesn't.

1454
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 8: But yeah, no, it does not, Yea. I take no

1455
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 8: pleasure in saying this, you know, I take no pleasure

1456
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:34,480
Speaker 8: in saying this. But it's an unfortunate reality. And hopefully

1457
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,799
Speaker 8: the turnaround can come from anywhere, it can come from

1458
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 8: from unexpected places. And I hope that there is one,

1459
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 8: and things like solidarity for Lelo, I hope it'd be

1460
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 8: a small link in the chain that moves the pensulum

1461
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 8: right back into the direction of an ethical and moral

1462
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 8: superiority that comes with fighting for working class folks.

1463
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, we're going to take an ad break and when

1464
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 7: we come back, we're going to talk about what we

1465
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 7: can do for lelo. Right now as listening to this,

1466
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 7: we are back, So let's talk about both the operation

1467
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:18,679
Speaker 7: I mean, just immediately, the plans to sort of put

1468
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 7: pressure to Freelillo, and also what then I guess we'll

1469
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,639
Speaker 7: get into sort of more broadly the kinds of fighting

1470
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 7: that we need to be doing in order to resist this.

1471
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 8: Sounds good. So, like I mentioned earlier, and you need

1472
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 8: an aftermath of lelo is kidnapping by ice, workers in

1473
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 8: the region began organizing and unions came together and support

1474
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 8: a Lelo and help a rally in front of attention

1475
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 8: center in Tacoma. Now, what we're trying to do is

1476
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 8: trying to spread the word further. There are other communities,

1477
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,440
Speaker 8: particularly here on the West Coast, that can't stand solidarity,

1478
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 8: that should stand in solidarity. And when we heard this

1479
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 8: needs to go down, activists within the CiU asked themselves,

1480
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 8: we can't stand idly by while a leader in our

1481
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 8: movement is kidnapped by the state. We need to take action,

1482
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 8: and so we did. And the point was to move

1483
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 8: as quickly as possible to try to build a larger

1484
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 8: voice for Lelo while he is in detention. So there

1485
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 8: is a good number of activists here in the Portland area.

1486
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 8: We can be of service to the farm Workers Union.

1487
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 8: You know, we have a strong core of independent unions

1488
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 8: here in the Pacific Northwest, particularly in the Portland area.

1489
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 8: We can do what other unions are hesitant to do,

1490
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 8: which is take action immediately. It stands firmly with our

1491
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:38,040
Speaker 8: brothers and sisters are monosynas up in northern Washington. So

1492
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 8: what's happening is the call from the union is workers individually,

1493
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 8: for people individually to call into the Attorney General in

1494
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 8: Washington State and call to the release of Lelo, also

1495
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 8: calling the new governor up in Washington State to call

1496
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 8: for the release. Bring a wider attention, making me known

1497
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 8: that this person is someone who is important to the community,

1498
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 8: cannot be expirited away to another country where they are

1499
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,840
Speaker 8: not from, where that is not their home, and taking

1500
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 8: away from their family, the community, from the good work

1501
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 8: that they do. And the other thing that we're trying

1502
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,720
Speaker 8: to do is we're trying to get local officials to

1503
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 8: also use their voice to maximize the pressure to give

1504
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:22,880
Speaker 8: more attention to this issue. So that's the call so far.

1505
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 8: This rally that we're having in front of city Hall

1506
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 8: on Saturday, April twelfth at two pm is the beginning

1507
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 8: of what we hope is a larger campaign that will

1508
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 8: not end until Lelo is free and until these raids

1509
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 8: stop attacking the labor movement in the Pacific Northwest. You know,

1510
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,719
Speaker 8: just because we in Portland, you know, are not farm workers,

1511
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 8: because we don't work with farm workers, because a lot

1512
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 8: of the workers who work here had maybe never met

1513
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 8: a farm worker, it does not mean that we should

1514
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 8: not stand shoulders shoulder and arm and arm and support

1515
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 8: the farm workers Union up in northern Washington to the hilt.

1516
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:00,880
Speaker 8: And this begins this fight building that kind of level

1517
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 8: of solidarity. It begins by showing up for them doing

1518
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 8: what they can do right now. They don't have the

1519
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 8: resources to go stay by day in city by city

1520
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 8: to bring its tension and awareness to one of their

1521
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 8: leaders being attacked. But we can do it, and if

1522
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 8: we can do it, we should do it. It's a

1523
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 8: moral imperative that little be free.

1524
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, And so I mean statistically there are a lot

1525
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 7: of you in Portland listening to the show, but statistically

1526
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 7: most of you are not in Portland. Are are there

1527
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 7: things that people in the rest of the country, and

1528
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:27,600
Speaker 7: I guess the rest of the world. I know, I

1529
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 7: know there's so Sally statistically don't live in the US.

1530
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1531
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 7: Are are there things that people in other places can

1532
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 7: do to put pressure specifically for Alala, but also just

1533
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 7: can do in their own communities to you know, I

1534
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 7: mean put pressure to stop these raids?

1535
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 1: Yes?

1536
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 8: Absolutely, So this is very similar I think to the CiU.

1537
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 8: The Coalition of Independent Unions is Coalition of Independent Unions

1538
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:51,400
Speaker 8: here in the Pascopical Northwest. It was trying to do

1539
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,120
Speaker 8: and it's trying to do with TRANSI of solidarity. The

1540
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 8: idea is we are trying to make this work here

1541
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 8: in the Pacific Northwest and if it's useful, if it's good,

1542
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 8: if people are paying attention to it, then we can

1543
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 8: export this to other cities in other areas to bring

1544
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 8: more attention to these causes. And so with that one

1545
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 8: paving earning contracts together, particularly on this one issue of

1546
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 8: tresender health care and trans incluencive language and contracts and

1547
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 8: codifying that between unions and having that a demand of

1548
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 8: labor movement that they not walk away from this. We

1549
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 8: want to also do the same thing with this fight

1550
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 8: for freedom for the farm Workers Union and their leaders

1551
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 8: and workers everywhere. And the tax will come soon enough,

1552
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,839
Speaker 8: I suppose, I would imagine from this regime in Washington,

1553
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 8: if this works, we want workers in other cities to

1554
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 8: start assisting the farm worker Union take them up the

1555
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 8: call of action and fighting for so not just let up,

1556
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 8: but whoever comes afterwards, because there will be lettles in

1557
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:49,720
Speaker 8: the future, unfortunate as they may be. So if this

1558
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 8: works here, if workers here, as they hear more updates,

1559
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:56,000
Speaker 8: we would hope and we would love if workers elsewhere,

1560
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 8: if organizing groups elsewhere would want to take up this

1561
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 8: fight and bring attention to the cause.

1562
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 7: Hell yeah, yeah. And I think there is a lot

1563
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 7: of you know, potential and sort of mobilizations. There's a

1564
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:10,840
Speaker 7: lot of potential in getting people to understand that this

1565
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:13,679
Speaker 7: stuff's happening, And there's a lot of potential in cross

1566
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 7: uniting organizing. And also, and I will say this too,

1567
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,640
Speaker 7: because like you know, obviously statistically, like there are a

1568
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 7: large number of people listening to this who are like

1569
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:24,800
Speaker 7: union staffers, but also like most of you are not.

1570
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 7: That also doesn't mean that whatever kind of organizing that

1571
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 7: you're doing doesn't overlap with this and doesn't have capacity

1572
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 7: that they can bring to bear to stop the entire

1573
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 7: deportation regime that we're facing right now. And that's something

1574
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:39,880
Speaker 7: that you have to do both on the level of solidarity,

1575
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 7: on a moral level, and also on a strategic level,

1576
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:44,639
Speaker 7: because again is going to come for you too.

1577
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:49,679
Speaker 8: So yeah, yeah, you know, without making it too personal,

1578
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 8: like I know level personally, I have met a little

1579
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 8: many times over the years. He's a fantastic person. The

1580
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 8: reason why a lot of us as organized is why

1581
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 8: we do this kind of work to begin with, is

1582
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 8: because we believe, as bizarrely as it may be, that

1583
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 8: we could be a link in the chain that makes

1584
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 8: the world a better place, that we can leave the

1585
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 8: world better off than we found it. And we also

1586
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 8: believe in what we're doing because when we look at

1587
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 8: people who have been attacked by corporations and attacked by

1588
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 8: the state, we feel in moral compulsion to help. And

1589
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 8: what I would say to folks who are outside of

1590
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:29,759
Speaker 8: Portland who are hearing this story who hear the calls

1591
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 8: to call the Attorney General in Washington State and demand

1592
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:36,320
Speaker 8: that they'll be released. To follow up with the union

1593
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 8: by media Plicia further direction on how they can assist

1594
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:42,959
Speaker 8: and potentially holding their own rallies and support and solidarity

1595
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 8: and bring attention to the issue. I would hope that

1596
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:50,719
Speaker 8: they do this. Imagine if Letlo were your brother, Imagine

1597
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 8: if Leto were your cousin, your father, your friend, Act

1598
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 8: as if they were they were them, because it require

1599
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 8: that level of to have the kind of solidarity that

1600
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 8: we need in order to fight this fastest regime and

1601
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,600
Speaker 8: everything that it does. It is easy to say I

1602
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 8: will wait for someone else to do the work. I will,

1603
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:14,800
Speaker 8: someone else will come along and it'll get resolved that way. No,

1604
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,240
Speaker 8: if you don't do the work, it just will not

1605
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 8: get done. And so we have to go in every

1606
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,879
Speaker 8: day as part of civic engagement and assisting the working class,

1607
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,559
Speaker 8: as part of our daily routines and using the kind

1608
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 8: of the kind of sense of moral necessity and of

1609
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 8: immediate action it requires that you would do for someone

1610
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 8: that was close to you, because this person is you

1611
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 8: just by another name, This person is your family. Even

1612
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 8: if you've never met them. We are all in this

1613
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 8: together as working class people, and if we start coming

1614
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 8: up with boundaries and reasons for why we shouldn't stand

1615
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:50,640
Speaker 8: up for one another, those reasons then become excuses for

1616
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:53,519
Speaker 8: everyone else. So I would hope that when people hear this,

1617
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 8: they look and see the struggle of this person, and

1618
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 8: they can imagine what would happen to them in the future,

1619
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 8: and they say, I would want someone there for me

1620
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:03,760
Speaker 8: in my corner, in my time of me, So I

1621
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:05,440
Speaker 8: will be there for them and theirs.

1622
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, it reminds me a lot of this line from

1623
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:11,680
Speaker 7: Peggy Seeger, who wrote and wrote an anti fascist song

1624
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 7: called Song of Choice, and one of the verses that's

1625
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,800
Speaker 7: always stuck with me is today the soldiers took away one.

1626
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 7: Tomorrow they may take away two. One April, they took

1627
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 7: away Greece, but surely they will never take you. And

1628
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 7: you know, I mean, that's the thing that people in

1629
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 7: the thirties woke up to, right is you know, if

1630
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 7: you're in this country and this is the thing that

1631
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:34,000
Speaker 7: you're waking up to now, is that, Yeah, the soldiers

1632
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 7: are taking people away, and every day they're taking away

1633
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 7: more and more people and one day you wake up

1634
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 7: and they've taken entire countries. And the only way that

1635
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 7: you can stop this is by making sure that the

1636
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 7: action that you're taking is not just waking up and

1637
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 7: going back to sleep. Right, Yep, you have to take

1638
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 7: a stand. You have to fight because no one is coming.

1639
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 7: The only person who was coming for these people, the

1640
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 7: only person who was coming for the people coming next

1641
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:00,759
Speaker 7: to them, and inevitably the only people who is coming

1642
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 7: to save you when they come for you is going

1643
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 7: to be you. And you know there there are enough

1644
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 7: of us to stop them, right there always have been.

1645
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 7: That's that's always been a thing about fascism is that

1646
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 7: it relies on us not fighting them, but relies on

1647
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 7: us on our passivity. It relies on us not caring

1648
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:22,080
Speaker 7: enough about the people that they take first, you know,

1649
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 7: to sit back and do nothing and think that we

1650
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:26,759
Speaker 7: can wait, and you can't have You have to start

1651
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,760
Speaker 7: right now, and you have to stop them before they

1652
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 7: advance any further. And you have to roll back what

1653
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 7: they've already done. And this is our opportunity to do that.

1654
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I think that says that they encapsulates

1655
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 8: the sentiment perfectly.

1656
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,840
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, do you have anything else that you want

1657
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 7: to add before we head out, and we will put

1658
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 7: links to a whole bunch of things in the description

1659
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 7: to this.

1660
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, I suppose to those that would want to

1661
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 8: know more about not just the struggle of the farm

1662
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 8: workers doing, but also the general experiments in independent unionism

1663
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 8: here in the Pacific Northwest, I'd highly encourage that folks

1664
01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 8: take a deep dive and see that to organize your

1665
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 8: workplace to have the kind of solidarity with your coworkers,

1666
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 8: you need not be dependent upon someone else and other

1667
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,599
Speaker 8: organizations that come in and sort of rescue you from

1668
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:26,360
Speaker 8: the mystery and drudgery of non union workplaces. You can

1669
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 8: do it too. You can create. You have it in

1670
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 8: your head, in your own mind and your own ends,

1671
01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 8: the ability to organize, the ability to fight with your coworkers,

1672
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 8: you have the kind of clever problem solving skills that

1673
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 8: every worker has in order to come back the boss

1674
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:45,120
Speaker 8: and create a better world than the one that currently exists.

1675
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,719
Speaker 8: And also that when it comes to issues like standing

1676
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 8: up for this struggle now and struggles in the future,

1677
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:57,320
Speaker 8: I would say you have it now, the creative capacity

1678
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:01,519
Speaker 8: to in whatever city you're in, to make connections to

1679
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:04,120
Speaker 8: build inroads with the labor movement, to build inroads with

1680
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,679
Speaker 8: working class people, and to try to create those bonds

1681
01:24:07,920 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 8: that happen. We here are trying to build closer bonds

1682
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 8: with city workers and farm workers out out in the country. Yeah,

1683
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 8: it's an important struggle because one it's going to be

1684
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:19,680
Speaker 8: more and more important in the future. You don't have

1685
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 8: to wait for anyone else to tell you how to

1686
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:25,719
Speaker 8: do that. You yourselves can show solidarity and work together

1687
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:28,120
Speaker 8: to build those kinds of bonds now so that in

1688
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 8: the future you can create working class movements that whether

1689
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 8: that takes the form of collective bargaining or something else.

1690
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 8: Organizing for the common good is useful no matter in

1691
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 8: what legal capacity it happens.

1692
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:41,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I mean, you know, one of the last

1693
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 7: point I want to add about that in terms of

1694
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:45,400
Speaker 7: looking at like you not needing help to do things,

1695
01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 7: like you know, I know a lot of the people

1696
01:24:47,680 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 7: who you know, like are the organizers who are hired

1697
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 7: by places like the UAW, like AFLCIO unions. Right, they're

1698
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 7: good people. Like, they're good people, they're good organizers. They

1699
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:01,680
Speaker 7: don't know anything that you can learn, Like, a lot

1700
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 7: of these people are just literally college students right, who

1701
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 7: are recruited like from college campuses and are thrown with

1702
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:12,600
Speaker 7: no training into organizing these things, right, And you know,

1703
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:15,879
Speaker 7: and again these are people who are just like stepping

1704
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 7: out of classrooms into like into these organizing scenarios with

1705
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:21,640
Speaker 7: very minimal training, and they've been able to do it.

1706
01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 7: And if those people can do it, so can you, Like,

1707
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 7: I know you, I know, I know these organizers and

1708
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 7: the only difference between them and you is that they

1709
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 7: spent some time learning some things and then they apply

1710
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 7: the same tools like they apply in some ways worse

1711
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 7: versions of the same tools that the independent union organizers use.

1712
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 7: And they're all tools that you can learn.

1713
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:45,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, And if any of the people listening want to

1714
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 8: learn sim of those tools, yeah, or you help with

1715
01:25:49,160 --> 01:25:51,640
Speaker 8: education and training, or just want to make connections at

1716
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:54,679
Speaker 8: in roads with workers elsewhere, contact the coalition and independent

1717
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:56,719
Speaker 8: husdents and seeing how we can build these bonds together,

1718
01:25:56,760 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 8: because I think that we will problem solve how to

1719
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,200
Speaker 8: defeat this regime one way or another. But I think

1720
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,840
Speaker 8: that we, particularly in the independent union space, provide a

1721
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:11,720
Speaker 8: unique possibility for how this can happen because since we

1722
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:15,400
Speaker 8: are not tied to larger established contracts. We're not tied

1723
01:26:15,439 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 8: to jurisdictional disputes, We're not tied to a lot of

1724
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 8: the legacies of some of the larger unions, God bless them.

1725
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:24,639
Speaker 8: We can create and fashion a labor movement that doesn't

1726
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:27,040
Speaker 8: have to live by those rules. You know, if you

1727
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:29,240
Speaker 8: imagine the idea of what it would look like to

1728
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:32,120
Speaker 8: refound the CIO in the nineteen thirties, if you could

1729
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:35,559
Speaker 8: imagine the worst aspects of the labor movement and excising them,

1730
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:37,479
Speaker 8: and what is the best aspects of labor movement that

1731
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:40,240
Speaker 8: you would want to see, we can create that together today.

1732
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:42,840
Speaker 8: And today it takes the form of standing up in

1733
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 8: solidarity with LELO and farm Workers Union up northern Washington,

1734
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:48,920
Speaker 8: not because we get anything from it, not because it's easy,

1735
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 8: but precisely because it is difficult, and precisely because it

1736
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:55,120
Speaker 8: is a moral compulsion on us to take action today

1737
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 8: for it. We don't have to wait for anyone to

1738
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 8: tell us what to do. As part of an independent

1739
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 8: labor movement, we get to decide our future and our faith,

1740
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 8: and we get to decide our struggles.

1741
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:05,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, and if and when we beat them here, we

1742
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:07,600
Speaker 7: can beat them today. We can beat them tomorrow. We

1743
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:10,960
Speaker 7: can beat the next day, and one day you know

1744
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 7: we will. We will have one, one victory too many

1745
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:15,639
Speaker 7: for them to hold onto power. And that's the only

1746
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:16,160
Speaker 7: way forward.

1747
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 8: Absolutely, fascism wants you to believe in a nihilistic perspective

1748
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 8: of the world. They want you to believe in which

1749
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:23,600
Speaker 8: it is hopeless to fight back. They want you to

1750
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:27,280
Speaker 8: believe just doom scroll forever and don't take any action

1751
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:31,640
Speaker 8: and focus on yourselves and navel gaze indefinitely. No. No. The

1752
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 8: way that you find out the kind of person that

1753
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 8: you are, and the way that you build the kind

1754
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 8: of future that you want for yourselves or families, for

1755
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 8: your communities, for the people that you don't even know

1756
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 8: and never will meet, what you want a good life

1757
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 8: for them. The way that you do that is you

1758
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 8: take action. Now, you start organizing, You do what you can,

1759
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 8: you build what you can. That's how we do this.

1760
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:51,439
Speaker 8: Like we said earlier, they want you to believe that

1761
01:27:51,520 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 8: the fighter is already over, the history has already been written.

1762
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 8: They only say that because they know it's not true. Yep,

1763
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 8: and me and other people who talk like this, who

1764
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,479
Speaker 8: are as optimistic and as hopeful and is fight. Ready.

1765
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 8: We don't believe this out of nowhere. We believe this

1766
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 8: because we truly do see that the better world is

1767
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:10,120
Speaker 8: possible if we fight.

1768
01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I think that's a spectacular place to end. Mark,

1769
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 7: thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah,

1770
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,519
Speaker 7: thank you, and everyone else who's listening to this, go

1771
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 7: out and fight.

1772
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 11: Hello, and welcome to It could happen here. I want

1773
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 11: you to imagine a world where everyone shared a second language,

1774
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:50,519
Speaker 11: not because of imperial conquest, but out of a shared

1775
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:56,680
Speaker 11: desire for unity and understanding. That was the duram behind Esperanto,

1776
01:28:56,840 --> 01:29:01,400
Speaker 11: a constructed language designed to be the basis for global bilingualism.

1777
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 11: Long before I learned anything about anarchism, I spent some

1778
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 11: time trying to learn Esperanto. It has shown up on

1779
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:10,680
Speaker 11: my due lingo one day, and it seems like such

1780
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 11: a fascinating and simple project to pick up. I was

1781
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 11: enamored with the philosophy behind it, so I generally spent

1782
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 11: a few months on and off trying to learn it.

1783
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 11: I was probably a decade ago at this point, so

1784
01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 11: I don't remember too much about it, but the connection

1785
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:28,640
Speaker 11: was there. And it's really because I've been exploring this

1786
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:31,679
Speaker 11: topic for this episode that I ended up going back

1787
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:34,759
Speaker 11: and dabbling in some of it again. I've learned recently

1788
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:39,440
Speaker 11: this is actually somewhat of a connection between Esperanto and anarchism,

1789
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:42,880
Speaker 11: so I stayed the time to explore the origins of Esperanto.

1790
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:47,840
Speaker 11: It's anarchist connections, it's flaws and its future. My name

1791
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 11: is Andrew Sage, and I'm here once again.

1792
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 9: With its face James. Again, very excited for this one.

1793
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:56,240
Speaker 11: Yes, you're familiar with Esperanto, right.

1794
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, very familiar. I am.

1795
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:00,600
Speaker 13: I wrote about it a little bit in my my

1796
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 13: first book and my PhD dissertation. Also, the last living

1797
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 13: person to participate in the Popular Olympics, which is what

1798
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:11,360
Speaker 13: I wrote my book about, was an Esperantist like. Part

1799
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:15,080
Speaker 13: of the project of the Popular Front in Catalonia was

1800
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 13: to bring people to diverstory sport, and then Esperanto was

1801
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:20,000
Speaker 13: going to be this thing that would, as you mentioned,

1802
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 13: like bridge the gaps between people.

1803
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:21,840
Speaker 3: Right.

1804
01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:25,280
Speaker 11: Yes, it's a really inspiring project, and so I know

1805
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 11: you're probably gonna know all this information, but I do

1806
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 11: have to share it with the audience.

1807
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm excited. I never really did full run down Esperanto.

1808
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:36,679
Speaker 13: It disappeared, and I was like, holy shit, that's cool.

1809
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 13: So I'm going to learn a lot.

1810
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 11: Sure.

1811
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 5: So.

1812
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 11: Esperanto was first constructed in a little booklet in eighteen

1813
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:48,040
Speaker 11: eighty seven by Polish Jewish ophthalmologist el El Salmonoff. According

1814
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 11: to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the name itself comes from the

1815
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 11: pseudonym he took on to publish the booklet. He called

1816
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 11: himself doctorro Esperanto, Esperanto meaning one who hopes and hope

1817
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:03,799
Speaker 11: really analyzed the whole project. According to a BBC article

1818
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:07,479
Speaker 11: written by Jose Luis Benarredonde, he lived as a Polish

1819
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 11: Jew in the multicultural Russian Empire in a time rife

1820
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:14,799
Speaker 11: with racial and national conflict. He was trying to promote

1821
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:18,240
Speaker 11: peace and understanding, and he saw an international language as

1822
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:20,760
Speaker 11: a ways to do that, with a flag of green

1823
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:23,559
Speaker 11: and white, the colors of hope and peace. For his efforts,

1824
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:27,920
Speaker 11: Zamenhoff himself was nominated fourteen times for the Nobel Peace Prize.

1825
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:31,719
Speaker 11: He genuine believed that if we all shared a common

1826
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 11: second language, quote, education, ideals, convictions, aims would be the

1827
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:40,800
Speaker 11: same too, and all nations would be united in a

1828
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 11: common brotherhood. End quote. Esperanto was created in a time

1829
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:48,920
Speaker 11: when modernism was on the rise and the idea of

1830
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 11: rationality and science was being used to quote un quote

1831
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:56,480
Speaker 11: optimize the world. When it was featured in Paris's Exposition

1832
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 11: Universal in nineteen hundred, the language caught on amongst the

1833
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 11: French intelligensia, who saw it as more optimal than the

1834
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:08,400
Speaker 11: messy and the logical realm of natural languages. Because it

1835
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:11,760
Speaker 11: was so easy, all words and sentences being built from

1836
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:14,600
Speaker 11: sixteen basic rules that could fit on a paper, and

1837
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 11: the language lacks the confusing exceptions and special rules of

1838
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 11: other languages, it was once seen as the language of

1839
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 11: the future. Esperanto made its full fledged public debut in

1840
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:29,200
Speaker 11: nineteen oh five when seven Hoff published The Fundamental Esperanto,

1841
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:33,200
Speaker 11: which laid down the basic principles of languages structure and formation.

1842
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 11: Esperanto was designed to be simple, logical, and accessible, drawn

1843
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 11: from the influence of Romance, Germanic and Slavic languages and

1844
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:46,120
Speaker 11: its construction. The orthography is phonetic, so all the words

1845
01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 11: are spelled as pronounced, and the grammar is so straightforward.

1846
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:55,160
Speaker 11: There's a consistent word ending for nouns. Pluralization adjectives and verbs.

1847
01:32:56,120 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 11: But although simple, it can couldvey complexity. A lot of

1848
01:33:00,280 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 11: suffixes you can add to give degrees of meaning, and

1849
01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:07,840
Speaker 11: there's room for compound words too. It's European focus to

1850
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:10,840
Speaker 11: be the target of criticism later on, but it actually

1851
01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 11: ended up being picked up in some unusual places. Anyway,

1852
01:33:15,320 --> 01:33:19,559
Speaker 11: Zamenhoff translated literature and wrote original verse, and after years

1853
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:22,599
Speaker 11: of effort, there were speakers to be found across Europe,

1854
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:25,559
Speaker 11: the Americas, China, and Japan.

1855
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 9: Interesting.

1856
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:30,839
Speaker 11: By nineteen oh eight, the Universala Esperanto Associo was founded,

1857
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 11: and it can now find members in eighty three countries worldwide.

1858
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 11: Today there's also fifty national Esperanto associations and twenty two

1859
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:43,599
Speaker 11: international professional associations that use Esperanto. There's an annual World

1860
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:47,879
Speaker 11: Esperanto Congress and more than one hundred periodicals published in Esperanto.

1861
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 11: Estimates range widely in terms of how many people speak

1862
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:55,640
Speaker 11: Esperanto today. They are apparently a handful of native speakers,

1863
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 11: folks who were raised speaking Esperanto. Oh wow, yeah, it's

1864
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:03,200
Speaker 11: really really really cool. Yeah, but L two speakers are

1865
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:06,360
Speaker 11: somewhere between thirty eight thousand l to being you know,

1866
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:10,040
Speaker 11: second language speakers are somewhere between thirty eight thousand to

1867
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 11: two million. According to Wilfith's article on Esperanto and anarchism.

1868
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 11: There are tens of thousands of books in Esperanto and

1869
01:34:19,080 --> 01:34:23,800
Speaker 11: several hundred, mostly swam periodicals that appear regularly. Yeah Party

1870
01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:26,760
Speaker 11: a day passes about international meetings such as those of

1871
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:31,640
Speaker 11: specialized organizations, conferences, youth get togethers, seminars, group holidays, and

1872
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:35,840
Speaker 11: regional meetings. There are several radio stations that broadcast programs

1873
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:39,479
Speaker 11: in Esperanto, and Esperanto has even been used by couples

1874
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:41,960
Speaker 11: of different origins as a family language.

1875
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 9: It's cool, funny enough.

1876
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,840
Speaker 11: As with every language, even an aspiring universal language, it

1877
01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:51,800
Speaker 11: has since had its offshoots. I saw on Wikipedia that

1878
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:55,599
Speaker 11: nearly a year after Samonoff's creation of Esperanto, in eighteen

1879
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 11: eighty eight, Dutch author J. Brachmann proposed a few changes

1880
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:02,280
Speaker 11: to language, like combining the end in for the adjective

1881
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 11: and adverb, change in conjugations, introduce in more Latin roots,

1882
01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:09,479
Speaker 11: getting rid of the diacritics, and so on. This language

1883
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:12,880
Speaker 11: would be called Mundolinko, and it was the first of

1884
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:17,600
Speaker 11: many offshoots from Esperanto proper. Even Zamenhoff would try to

1885
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 11: reform the language at one point in eighteen ninety four,

1886
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:22,839
Speaker 11: but it was rejected by the Esperanto community and eventually

1887
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:26,839
Speaker 11: even himself. These reforms would later be used to develop Edo,

1888
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 11: another attempt at universal language, with far less success. I

1889
01:35:31,280 --> 01:35:33,559
Speaker 11: also learned theo Wikipedia there was an attempt to make

1890
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:39,799
Speaker 11: Esperanto more complex by introducing Cherokee components called Policepo, created

1891
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:43,839
Speaker 11: by a Native American activist named Billy ray Walden. Esperanto

1892
01:35:43,880 --> 01:35:47,880
Speaker 11: speakers continue to play the language in all sorts of ways.

1893
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 11: To this day. Esperanto is an evolved in language, and

1894
01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:56,080
Speaker 11: Samonhoff himself is honored as part of this global Esperanto culture.

1895
01:35:56,800 --> 01:36:00,720
Speaker 11: They celebrate his birthday the fifteenth of December, statues and

1896
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:04,400
Speaker 11: streets and plaques remembering him worldwide, and even an asteroid

1897
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:08,120
Speaker 11: there's his name. At one point, according to the BBC article,

1898
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,160
Speaker 11: there was an effort to establish an Esperanto speaking land

1899
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 11: called ami Kejo, which would have been a three point

1900
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:21,000
Speaker 11: five square kilometer territory between the Netlands, Germany and France. Yeah. Nice,

1901
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:24,040
Speaker 11: three point five square kilometers.

1902
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:27,479
Speaker 13: Yeah, not huge, Yeah, it's like how big? Well, I know,

1903
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:29,759
Speaker 13: we've got a few of those, like little ones in Europe,

1904
01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:30,040
Speaker 13: you know.

1905
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:32,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, a couple of micro estates. It could have been

1906
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:35,679
Speaker 11: another micro state, but the idea was very quickly squashed

1907
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:36,639
Speaker 11: following World War One.

1908
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:38,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, I know. This senatee.

1909
01:36:39,080 --> 01:36:45,080
Speaker 13: The Spanish Anarchosynthicalist Union was like in its first congress,

1910
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 13: like its foundational Congress. I supposed they were like, and

1911
01:36:47,360 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 13: everyone has to everyone should try and learn Esperanto, like

1912
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:53,200
Speaker 13: that was one of their like the things that at

1913
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:56,439
Speaker 13: the foundation of what became probably the most powerful anarchist

1914
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 13: movement the world's ever seen.

1915
01:36:57,560 --> 01:36:59,479
Speaker 9: They were like, also, this is a big thing.

1916
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, Esperanto is really huge in the anarchist movement

1917
01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:04,280
Speaker 11: at a certain point.

1918
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:05,400
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1919
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,599
Speaker 11: But we're going to get to those connections soon enough.

1920
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 11: I want to bring up this other interesting story. There

1921
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:26,120
Speaker 11: was actually an effort by esperantists, including a delegate from Iran,

1922
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:29,400
Speaker 11: to get the language to become the official language of

1923
01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 11: the League of Nations. But take one guess as to

1924
01:37:33,160 --> 01:37:34,759
Speaker 11: which country block that effort.

1925
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:40,080
Speaker 9: Was it one of the anglophone countries? No, oh, wow,

1926
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:41,280
Speaker 9: the French.

1927
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 11: It was the French.

1928
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 13: Yeah, there is not a state more invested in its

1929
01:37:46,439 --> 01:37:50,120
Speaker 13: language than France. Indeed, they have laws I think about,

1930
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:53,599
Speaker 13: like broadcasting music and dubbing films and things.

1931
01:37:54,240 --> 01:37:59,479
Speaker 11: Yeah, the French government seemingly hated Esperanto. At least according

1932
01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:03,040
Speaker 11: to the article on imp of the Diverse blog site,

1933
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:07,360
Speaker 11: they blocked its study in universities and public schools, and

1934
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:12,120
Speaker 11: as the article quotes the opponents directly quote. On September tenth,

1935
01:38:12,240 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 11: nineteen twenty two, the New York Tribune ran a translation

1936
01:38:15,840 --> 01:38:18,320
Speaker 11: of a piece by the editor in chief of Limatin,

1937
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:24,400
Speaker 11: Stefan Lausanne. Miss Lasan spent half his editorial writing about Esperanto.

1938
01:38:24,960 --> 01:38:26,960
Speaker 11: And I'm not going to do a French accent for

1939
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,599
Speaker 11: this section, but just imagine, like the most French Frenchman

1940
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 11: reading this, that Finns or Albanians have fevered such a

1941
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 11: proper ganda is comprehensible. Their dialect has no chance of

1942
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:44,320
Speaker 11: imposing itself on the universe. They need a second language

1943
01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:48,559
Speaker 11: just as well Esperanto as any other. But that French

1944
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:52,360
Speaker 11: people or English or Germans could have let themselves be

1945
01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 11: allured by this linguistic bolsheviser that is far more extraordinary.

1946
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:01,280
Speaker 11: It is nevertheless a fact that Esperando, which was born

1947
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:04,360
Speaker 11: twenty five years ago and ought to have died through ridicule,

1948
01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:08,920
Speaker 11: continues to have disciples in Europe. Every year in a

1949
01:39:08,920 --> 01:39:11,880
Speaker 11: different capital they hold a congress at which they are

1950
01:39:11,880 --> 01:39:14,599
Speaker 11: not very numerous, but where they make a great noise.

1951
01:39:15,280 --> 01:39:18,080
Speaker 11: They get so excited that quite recently the Minister of

1952
01:39:18,080 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 11: Public Instruction had to address a circular to all the

1953
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:25,320
Speaker 11: French educational resorts to warn them against the danger of Esperanto.

1954
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:30,080
Speaker 11: An article in the Washington Herald on that same day

1955
01:39:30,439 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 11: explained the danger, at least according to the Ministry of

1956
01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 11: Public Instruction. The reason for this order, according to Sittin

1957
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:39,960
Speaker 11: school teachers, is that teaching of a language as easy

1958
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:43,640
Speaker 11: as Esperanto endangers the existence of the French language and

1959
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 11: thus the national solidarity of the country. They contend that

1960
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:50,360
Speaker 11: children will nationally take to an easy language as Esperanto,

1961
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,600
Speaker 11: and in that time French and English would perish, and

1962
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:57,760
Speaker 11: that the literary standard of the world would be debased. Furthermore,

1963
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 11: they argue that a national language plays a predominant part

1964
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 11: in maintaining national unity, and points to Poland and the

1965
01:40:04,439 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 11: Rain as examples. Esperanto is an artificial language of no

1966
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:11,400
Speaker 11: real merit right to one professor, it has no very

1967
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 11: definite origin and what it aims to draw the scattered

1968
01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:16,800
Speaker 11: people of the world together, does it doth rather tend

1969
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:19,679
Speaker 11: to de nationalization? End quote?

1970
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 13: They're not wrong, Like France is the language if you

1971
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:26,360
Speaker 13: read like a peasants into Frenchman is kind of the

1972
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:29,439
Speaker 13: classic work on like French nationalization. But like, in order

1973
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 13: to make people French, they did have to suppress like

1974
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:36,479
Speaker 13: Basque and Breton and Catalan and other languages, right, and

1975
01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:39,040
Speaker 13: make people go to schools where they learned French and

1976
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:41,000
Speaker 13: conceived of themselves as French.

1977
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:41,760
Speaker 9: As a result of that.

1978
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:47,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, their imposition of DaShan identity was perhaps among the

1979
01:40:47,439 --> 01:40:50,920
Speaker 11: most successful in the world. Yeah, in terms of its

1980
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:53,880
Speaker 11: earliness and its consistent enforcement.

1981
01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:58,880
Speaker 13: It shows like nations are always projects of the bourgeoisie, right, Like,

1982
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:01,160
Speaker 13: at least I would argue that, and so a lot

1983
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 13: of other people. But like the French example is one

1984
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:07,360
Speaker 13: where we can see it more clearly than others. Like

1985
01:41:07,439 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 13: it's a state and specifically like a certain class within

1986
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 13: the state project to enforce and continue to perpetuate this

1987
01:41:15,280 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 13: narrative of nation.

1988
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:21,320
Speaker 11: And you know, they weren't the only enemies of Esperanto

1989
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:24,679
Speaker 11: and do you know that's saying judged me by my enemies?

1990
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:26,720
Speaker 9: Yeah? Who else?

1991
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:31,719
Speaker 11: We got Nazi Germany, Francoist Spain, and the Soviet Union

1992
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:33,360
Speaker 11: also heated.

1993
01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 9: Esperanto gets cooler with everyone.

1994
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:39,400
Speaker 11: The Nazis they were nationalists, and the Zavenhoff was Jewish.

1995
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:43,759
Speaker 11: So his family was actually targeted and the language was banned,

1996
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:47,120
Speaker 11: and Esperantis were targeted and put in camps during the Holocaust,

1997
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:49,559
Speaker 11: which is really tragic.

1998
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:50,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, pretty fucked.

1999
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, his whole family was heavily targeted by Nati Germany.

2000
01:41:55,680 --> 01:42:01,360
Speaker 11: Franco associated Esperanto with anti nationalism and anarchism, which true.

2001
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:03,759
Speaker 9: Yeah, he wasn't wrong, So it.

2002
01:42:03,720 --> 01:42:08,000
Speaker 11: Was targeted for a while. Yeah, and the Soviets, while

2003
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 11: originally recognizing Esperantists, eventually reversed that policy under Stalin during

2004
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:18,960
Speaker 11: the Great Purge and executed exiled or gulagd Esperantists. And

2005
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:22,240
Speaker 11: as you can imagine, all that repression all at once

2006
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 11: kind of killed Esperanto's momentum. Today, despite its goal of

2007
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:32,000
Speaker 11: being a truly international language, Esperanto's global reach remains une fun.

2008
01:42:32,880 --> 01:42:35,360
Speaker 11: While it has made some strides in recent years, it's

2009
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:39,439
Speaker 11: still underrepresented in many parts of Africa and Asia. The

2010
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,719
Speaker 11: majority of Esperanto speakers today are in Europe. Those development

2011
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 11: outside of Europe deserves some attention, as Esperanto managed to

2012
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:50,519
Speaker 11: levermark in China, Iran, Togo and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

2013
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:53,479
Speaker 11: But the response to Esperanto historically you should give you

2014
01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:57,080
Speaker 11: an indication as to how anarchists must have felt about Esperanto.

2015
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:02,240
Speaker 11: As an internationalist or anti nationalist movement. Anarchism was very

2016
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:05,759
Speaker 11: supportive of the Esperanto project won. Running through the timeline

2017
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:09,680
Speaker 11: could to see Wilfirth's Esperanto and Anarchism. One of the

2018
01:43:09,720 --> 01:43:12,679
Speaker 11: earliest anarchist Esperanto groups was founded in Stockholm in nineteen

2019
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:15,640
Speaker 11: oh five. The same year, the anarchist Paul up with

2020
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 11: a Lot founded the monthly magazine Esperanto. Similar groups soon

2021
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:23,559
Speaker 11: emerged in Bulgaria, China and other countries. In nineteen oh six,

2022
01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:29,920
Speaker 11: anarchists anarchist Sinicolis founded an international association Paco Libreco Peace Freedom,

2023
01:43:30,320 --> 01:43:35,160
Speaker 11: which published the Internacia Socia Review. By nineteen ten, Paco

2024
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:39,639
Speaker 11: Libreco merged with Esperantista Labarri Staro to form Liberiga Stillo

2025
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:45,040
Speaker 11: star Liberation, strengthening anarchist Esperanto networks. The nineteen oh seven

2026
01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 11: International Anarchist Congress in Amsterdam formally addressed the role of

2027
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 11: Esperanto in international communication. Subsequent anarchist congresses continue to pass

2028
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:58,040
Speaker 11: resolutions advocating for Esperanto's use within the movement. By nineteen fourteen,

2029
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:02,960
Speaker 11: these anarchist esperantist organizations had published extensive revolutionary literature, including

2030
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:07,919
Speaker 11: anarchist texts in Esperanto. Around this time, correspondence between European

2031
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:13,640
Speaker 11: and Japanese anarchists became more active, facilitated by Esperanto. In Prague,

2032
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:19,000
Speaker 11: Eugene Adam proposed the formation of Senassa Associo Tutmunda the

2033
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 11: SAT or the World in National Association. Unlike other Esperanto associations,

2034
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:29,880
Speaker 11: SAT rejected nationalism wholesale and sought to create a transnational

2035
01:44:30,280 --> 01:44:34,439
Speaker 11: class conscious workers movement. To quote why is there an

2036
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:38,639
Speaker 11: Esperanto Workers Movement by Gary Michel, SAT was not meant

2037
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:41,320
Speaker 11: to usurp the role of political parties by engaging in

2038
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:44,920
Speaker 11: political struggles directly, but was to be a cultural association

2039
01:44:45,200 --> 01:44:48,639
Speaker 11: engaged in workers education, one that would help to break

2040
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:52,120
Speaker 11: down national and ethnic barriers between workers by involving them

2041
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:56,880
Speaker 11: in practical collective activity, bringing workers into contact, freeing them

2042
01:44:56,920 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 11: from the shackles of nationalism. SAT's idea, and especially the

2043
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:04,719
Speaker 11: ideas of its a nationalist faction, were an early statement

2044
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:06,600
Speaker 11: of an idea that has more recently come to be

2045
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 11: known as globalization from below. So in August nineteen twenty one,

2046
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:14,559
Speaker 11: seventy nine workers from fifteen countries gathered in Prague to

2047
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:19,080
Speaker 11: formally established SAT. By nineteen twenty nine to nineteen thirty

2048
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:22,320
Speaker 11: SAT had grown to six five hundred and twenty four

2049
01:45:22,320 --> 01:45:27,559
Speaker 11: members across forty two countries, reaching its peak influence. The

2050
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:31,080
Speaker 11: use of Esperanto flourished in German workers' movements between nineteen

2051
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:34,559
Speaker 11: twenty and nineteen thirty three. By nineteen thirty two, the

2052
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:38,120
Speaker 11: German Workers Esperanto League had four thousand members, leading to

2053
01:45:38,240 --> 01:45:42,879
Speaker 11: Esperanto being called the Workers Latin. But as you can imagine,

2054
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:45,040
Speaker 11: this was not to last. By the time Hitler came

2055
01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:49,280
Speaker 11: into power. The Scientific Anarchist Library of the International Language

2056
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 11: or ISAB, was founded in the USSR in nineteen twenty three,

2057
01:45:53,360 --> 01:45:56,920
Speaker 11: published in anarchist works by Kropotkin and Ann Borivoi in Esperanto.

2058
01:45:57,360 --> 01:46:01,280
Speaker 11: This also would not last. The Great Purge The Berlin

2059
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:04,160
Speaker 11: group of anarchist cyniclist esperantists created the Second Congress of

2060
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,280
Speaker 11: the International Workers Association in Amsterdam in nineteen twenty five

2061
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 11: and reported that Esperanto had become so integrated into their

2062
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:15,360
Speaker 11: movement that an international libertarian Esperantist organization had formed. This

2063
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:19,840
Speaker 11: likely referred to the TLEs the World League of Steepless Esperantists,

2064
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:23,680
Speaker 11: which later merged with SAT. Esperanto was also popping off

2065
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 11: amongst anarchists and socialists in Korea, China, and Japan. Liushifu,

2066
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:33,000
Speaker 11: a key figure in Chinese anarchism, began publishing La Voucho

2067
01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:37,000
Speaker 11: de la Popolo, The Voice of the People in nineteen thirteen,

2068
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 11: the first anarchist periodical in China. His work relied heavily

2069
01:46:41,400 --> 01:46:45,960
Speaker 11: on information from Internacia Socia Review and helped popularize esperanto

2070
01:46:46,040 --> 01:46:49,519
Speaker 11: in China. Japanese anarchists and socialists, as I mentioned, were

2071
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:53,439
Speaker 11: among the earliest esperantists in the country, but faced heavy

2072
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:58,639
Speaker 11: persecution and sadly between imperial Japan, Francoist Spain, Nazi Germany,

2073
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:01,920
Speaker 11: and Stalinist Russia. The rise of tatalitarian regimes lead into

2074
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:06,679
Speaker 11: World War II, largely suppressed the anarchist esperanto movement. After

2075
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:09,479
Speaker 11: the war, the Paris Anarchist Esperanto group was the first

2076
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:13,760
Speaker 11: to resume organized work, launching the publication sen Santano in

2077
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:18,919
Speaker 11: nineteen forty six. Most anarchist Esperantists have since been organized

2078
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:23,000
Speaker 11: within SAT, with an anarchist faction maintaining its autonomy. In

2079
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:27,680
Speaker 11: nineteen sixty nine, this faction began publishing the Liberal Sana Bultano,

2080
01:47:28,120 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 11: later a day in the Liberate Sana Liguillo. By nineteen

2081
01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:34,839
Speaker 11: ninety seven, SAT membership had dwindled to fewer than fifteen

2082
01:47:34,960 --> 01:47:39,080
Speaker 11: hundred members. The initial radical vision of SAT was weakened

2083
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 11: by political shifts and the growing dominance of English as

2084
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:45,839
Speaker 11: a global lingua franca. Daily separation between SAT and mainstream

2085
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:50,080
Speaker 11: Esperanto organizations was a response to bourgeois political neutrality, but

2086
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 11: it also contributed to its marginalization, and today the anarchist

2087
01:47:53,640 --> 01:48:07,760
Speaker 11: esperanto movement exists largely as a niche within SAT. So

2088
01:48:08,400 --> 01:48:12,360
Speaker 11: what can we say about the role of Esperanto today. Well.

2089
01:48:12,720 --> 01:48:14,600
Speaker 11: One of the more interesting currents I found in the

2090
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:19,439
Speaker 11: esperanto community mentioned by Firth is Raumismo, a philosophy named

2091
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:23,080
Speaker 11: after the Finnish city of Rauma, where a youth congress

2092
01:48:23,080 --> 01:48:28,599
Speaker 11: in nineteen eighty helped define this approach. Braumismo views Esperanto

2093
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:32,840
Speaker 11: speakers as a kind of linguistic diaspora, a cultural group

2094
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 11: bound together by a shared language rather than a national identity.

2095
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:39,560
Speaker 11: Instead of focusing on making Esperanto a universal second language,

2096
01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 11: raumistoge embraced it as just one language among many, valuing

2097
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:48,719
Speaker 11: its use in literature, culture and everyday communication without any

2098
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,880
Speaker 11: grand ideological ambitions. But it's possible Esperanto who can still

2099
01:48:52,920 --> 01:48:55,599
Speaker 11: play a role in facilities in exchange and collaboration between

2100
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:59,559
Speaker 11: people of different linguistic backgrounds. A German anarchist once lamented

2101
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:04,040
Speaker 11: the barrier international understanding quoted in food article. More or

2102
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 11: less in isolation from one another, we work and fight

2103
01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:10,280
Speaker 11: without engaging in exchange about our victories and defeats, and

2104
01:49:10,320 --> 01:49:14,120
Speaker 11: with thoughts supporting and encouraging one another. Intensifying contact above

2105
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:16,639
Speaker 11: the regional level with people having similar ideas and aims

2106
01:49:16,800 --> 01:49:19,519
Speaker 11: should be an important component of our work in order

2107
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:24,400
Speaker 11: to make effective active solidarity possible quote. And that's the trouble.

2108
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:29,920
Speaker 11: Even today. Linguistic barriers hinder international cooperation groups struggle to

2109
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:36,040
Speaker 11: maintain foreign language correspondence, organize multilingual meetings, or find interpreters. Instead,

2110
01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:39,200
Speaker 11: communication tends to rely on chance. You know, someone in

2111
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:42,320
Speaker 11: a group happens to speak a certain language that determines

2112
01:49:42,320 --> 01:49:45,600
Speaker 11: who they can connect with. But when those key individuals

2113
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:49,360
Speaker 11: move on, those connections can have falling apart. So I

2114
01:49:49,360 --> 01:49:52,080
Speaker 11: get the appeal, I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial for

2115
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,640
Speaker 11: these movements and for any interest group working across language barriers,

2116
01:49:55,920 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 11: to have a relatively easy to learn, politically neutral means

2117
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:02,720
Speaker 11: of communication. Major languages like English, Spanish or French don't

2118
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:06,360
Speaker 11: fully solve the problem, as they come with historical baggage

2119
01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:11,240
Speaker 11: and imbalances influency levels. Esperanto, on the other hand, provides

2120
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:14,920
Speaker 11: a more equitable solution because everybody is from this starts

2121
01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:17,400
Speaker 11: and from the same point. Since it isn't tied to

2122
01:50:17,439 --> 01:50:20,800
Speaker 11: any one nation, it avoids the poodynamics that arise when

2123
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:23,640
Speaker 11: non native speakers must conformed to the linguistic norms of

2124
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:28,160
Speaker 11: dominant cultures. Unlike English, which often privileges native speakers and

2125
01:50:28,240 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 11: places others as perpetual learners, Esperanto fosters a more level

2126
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:36,240
Speaker 11: playin field. English is treated like a global lingua franca

2127
01:50:36,360 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 11: right now, But a lot of people leave school without

2128
01:50:39,280 --> 01:50:42,439
Speaker 11: ever developing an affluency to navigate an English dominated world,

2129
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:47,960
Speaker 11: and English is not the easiest language to learn. Esperanto,

2130
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 11: regardless of weather ever, becomes a global standard, offers an

2131
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:57,280
Speaker 11: alternative path. It can help people overcome language learning anxieties,

2132
01:50:57,680 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 11: as particularly those who feel disempowered by educational systems, and

2133
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:05,559
Speaker 11: it can inspire an interest in language itself. If you've

2134
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:07,720
Speaker 11: ever met an Esperanto speaker, you know that they are

2135
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:13,280
Speaker 11: very passionate about linguistics. More often than not, many of

2136
01:51:13,320 --> 01:51:16,840
Speaker 11: the speakers go on to study linguistics, language politics, or

2137
01:51:16,840 --> 01:51:20,120
Speaker 11: even lesser known languages. It's also a great way to

2138
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 11: develop translation skills in a friendly, cooperative environment. For monolingual

2139
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:29,280
Speaker 11: English speakers, using Esperanto can be an eye open and experience.

2140
01:51:29,880 --> 01:51:31,960
Speaker 11: It puts them the shoes of those who never got

2141
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:35,800
Speaker 11: to rely on their native language in international settings. Rather

2142
01:51:35,800 --> 01:51:38,280
Speaker 11: than view an Esperanto as a competitor to other languages,

2143
01:51:38,920 --> 01:51:41,240
Speaker 11: perhaps a more productive approach is to see it as

2144
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:45,280
Speaker 11: a tool for promoting multi lingualism, cultural exchange, and a

2145
01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:48,959
Speaker 11: more cosmopolitan mindset within the Esperanto speaking in the community.

2146
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:52,960
Speaker 11: Opinions on its future vary widely, but one thing is clear.

2147
01:51:53,479 --> 01:51:56,760
Speaker 11: The question of how we communicate across linguistic divides is

2148
01:51:56,800 --> 01:52:02,519
Speaker 11: still very much alive, and Esperanto offers but possible answer. However,

2149
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:06,520
Speaker 11: as I alluded to Ilia, Esperanto is not without its critiques.

2150
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:09,439
Speaker 11: As covered by Firth, Let's start with one of the

2151
01:52:09,439 --> 01:52:14,120
Speaker 11: most frequent critiques. Esperanto is an artificial language. Unlike the

2152
01:52:14,120 --> 01:52:18,040
Speaker 11: so called natural languages, which evolved organically over time, Esperanto

2153
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 11: was deliberately constructed. But here's the thing. Since the rise

2154
01:52:22,280 --> 01:52:25,639
Speaker 11: of the nation state, the line between natural and artificial

2155
01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:30,960
Speaker 11: languages has become increasingly blurry. Many national languages, like standard

2156
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:35,320
Speaker 11: German or Standard French, have been shaped by deliberate standardization,

2157
01:52:35,960 --> 01:52:40,919
Speaker 11: legal regulations, and media influence. In that sense, every language

2158
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:45,719
Speaker 11: is to some degree engineered. Authors, storytellers, and ordinary speakers

2159
01:52:45,760 --> 01:52:50,120
Speaker 11: continuously influenced language development, meaning that Esperanto is not as different.

2160
01:52:50,240 --> 01:52:54,160
Speaker 11: After all, it does continue to evolve. And here's where

2161
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:57,800
Speaker 11: I think James Scott had a rather negative characterization of

2162
01:52:57,920 --> 01:53:01,639
Speaker 11: Esperanto as a purely high modess endeavor, as though all

2163
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:05,880
Speaker 11: esperandos sought to make Esperanto, the official international language in

2164
01:53:05,960 --> 01:53:08,400
Speaker 11: se Meca State. He claims that Esperanto was created to

2165
01:53:08,439 --> 01:53:12,040
Speaker 11: replace the dialects and vernaculars of Europe, but such was

2166
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:14,720
Speaker 11: never the case. It was always meant to be a

2167
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:18,519
Speaker 11: language used to facilitate communication. There was more than one

2168
01:53:18,560 --> 01:53:21,680
Speaker 11: motivation of Esperando's use, and boil in such an exercise

2169
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:24,280
Speaker 11: and human creativity, and attempted a connection down to just

2170
01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:29,639
Speaker 11: that status focus to me seems needlessly reductive. He also

2171
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:32,680
Speaker 11: calls it quote an exceptionally thin language without any of

2172
01:53:32,720 --> 01:53:37,080
Speaker 11: the resonances, connotations, ready metaphors, literatures, oral histories, idioms, and

2173
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:40,519
Speaker 11: traditions of practical use that any social embedded language already

2174
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:44,000
Speaker 11: had end quote, which may be true when it began,

2175
01:53:44,720 --> 01:53:47,320
Speaker 11: but it's certainly not true now with over a century

2176
01:53:47,400 --> 01:53:48,679
Speaker 11: of use and evolution.

2177
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:49,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2178
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 11: His analogies between Esperanto and plant cities also missed the

2179
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:58,120
Speaker 11: mark for me, as Esperanto has clearly operated as a

2180
01:53:58,160 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 11: self organized and grassroots move on for most of its

2181
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:04,360
Speaker 11: history and has never really received the back end of

2182
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:05,880
Speaker 11: states or their enforcement.

2183
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:09,280
Speaker 13: It's a weird angle from Scott because normally he'd advocate

2184
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:12,280
Speaker 13: for like what he calls like the anarchist squint right like,

2185
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:16,800
Speaker 13: and seeing history through a perspective of anarchistm I guess,

2186
01:54:16,960 --> 01:54:19,519
Speaker 13: like an anarchist lens. And I feel like, exactly this

2187
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:24,080
Speaker 13: is very applicable with Esperanto, the only language which isn't

2188
01:54:24,080 --> 01:54:28,000
Speaker 13: inherently tied to any state or nation or ethnicity.

2189
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:32,360
Speaker 11: Exactly when I saw that, I remember reading seeing like

2190
01:54:32,360 --> 01:54:34,560
Speaker 11: the State some years ago, and I've already the lost

2191
01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:36,640
Speaker 11: st to for that. But in doing the research for this,

2192
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:39,080
Speaker 11: I ended up, you know, stumbling upon it again and

2193
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:42,640
Speaker 11: I was like, hm, after reading the history, it's like

2194
01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:43,720
Speaker 11: this wasn't quite accurate.

2195
01:54:44,280 --> 01:54:47,360
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, that's a bum it. Yeah, generally like Scott

2196
01:54:47,600 --> 01:54:52,919
Speaker 13: me as well. Yeah, recently some listeners very kindly, James's

2197
01:54:52,920 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 13: got passed away out of this knit as I'm sure

2198
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:58,640
Speaker 13: you know, I do, yes, But his library was donated

2199
01:54:58,680 --> 01:55:01,040
Speaker 13: to a local second hand bookshop and some folks that

2200
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:03,480
Speaker 13: I asked online and they went and got me some

2201
01:55:03,560 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 13: books and sent them, which was really kind. So I

2202
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:06,920
Speaker 13: have some of his books now.

2203
01:55:07,080 --> 01:55:07,960
Speaker 11: Oh that's nice.

2204
01:55:08,160 --> 01:55:08,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2205
01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:13,000
Speaker 11: There's another common claim about Esperanto, which is that it's eurocentric,

2206
01:55:13,240 --> 01:55:18,400
Speaker 11: right and linguistically. There's some truth to this Esperanto originated

2207
01:55:18,440 --> 01:55:22,360
Speaker 11: in Eastern Europe, and it still carries structural elements to example,

2208
01:55:22,440 --> 01:55:26,320
Speaker 11: Indo European languages. The majority of Esperanto speakers today are

2209
01:55:26,320 --> 01:55:31,480
Speaker 11: European and its vocabulary is largely drawn from European languages. However,

2210
01:55:31,840 --> 01:55:35,720
Speaker 11: critics who make this argument often suggest alternatives like English

2211
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:39,200
Speaker 11: or Spanish languages that are just as if not more,

2212
01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:43,520
Speaker 11: Eurocentric in the historical and political reach. Esperanto, in contrast,

2213
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:46,560
Speaker 11: has evolved through influence from non European languages as well,

2214
01:55:46,960 --> 01:55:50,120
Speaker 11: particularly through its development in China and Japan. It's a

2215
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 11: glassenative word formation, a feature more common in languages like

2216
01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:57,120
Speaker 11: Twokish or Japanese and what some call the Hungarian period

2217
01:55:57,200 --> 01:56:01,400
Speaker 11: of Esperanto's history. So while Esperanto soo has European roots,

2218
01:56:01,880 --> 01:56:04,640
Speaker 11: it's global evolution challenges the idea that it is exclusively

2219
01:56:04,680 --> 01:56:10,480
Speaker 11: European in character. Another critique is that Esperanto is sexist.

2220
01:56:11,120 --> 01:56:14,200
Speaker 11: The argument goes that because feminine forms are typically created

2221
01:56:14,240 --> 01:56:18,280
Speaker 11: by adding in to a base form like Laboristo worker

2222
01:56:18,440 --> 01:56:23,000
Speaker 11: become a Labristino female worker, the language assumes masculinity as

2223
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:26,560
Speaker 11: a default, and while this is a valid concern, Esperanto

2224
01:56:26,640 --> 01:56:29,640
Speaker 11: differs from any European languages in a key way. It

2225
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:33,960
Speaker 11: is not assigned grammatical gender to inanimate objects. A chair

2226
01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 11: isn't arbitrarily feminine like in French, or masculine like in German. However,

2227
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:42,120
Speaker 11: in practice, gender bias can still creep in the basic

2228
01:56:42,160 --> 01:56:45,240
Speaker 11: form of noun is often assumed to be masculine, even

2229
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:49,240
Speaker 11: though Esperanto allows for explicitly male forms as well. Like

2230
01:56:49,280 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 11: in any language, reducing linguistic sexism in Esperanto requires conscious

2231
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 11: effort in how people actually use it.

2232
01:56:56,280 --> 01:56:58,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's an interesting one.

2233
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:00,320
Speaker 13: Like we see this in Spanish too, right, like with

2234
01:57:00,360 --> 01:57:05,000
Speaker 13: attempts to create like gender neutral forms the presumptive mask

2235
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:08,120
Speaker 13: then or if you're addressing a mixed gender group then

2236
01:57:08,160 --> 01:57:11,320
Speaker 13: you would use the masculine. But like people who are

2237
01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:13,880
Speaker 13: first language Spanish speakers can correct me. I'm sure you

2238
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:16,560
Speaker 13: will on the subreddit if you want to. So, like

2239
01:57:16,680 --> 01:57:19,360
Speaker 13: when I hear in English language media it's referred to

2240
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:22,760
Speaker 13: as latin x but like that's kind of a word

2241
01:57:22,760 --> 01:57:24,880
Speaker 13: that I struggle to say in Spanish, like it Latin

2242
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:26,600
Speaker 13: ekie or like is it latiniques?

2243
01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:28,520
Speaker 9: And so there's this very kind of.

2244
01:57:29,400 --> 01:57:34,400
Speaker 13: Clumsy gender neutral form, which seems to be easier to

2245
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 13: say in English and Spanish.

2246
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:39,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, I've seen Latin used in some circles.

2247
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:41,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, Latine, Latine.

2248
01:57:41,920 --> 01:57:42,320
Speaker 14: Yeah.

2249
01:57:42,440 --> 01:57:45,360
Speaker 13: When I speak to non binary people in Spanish, that's

2250
01:57:45,360 --> 01:57:50,040
Speaker 13: what they prefer to use. Of this relatively small sample size,

2251
01:57:50,280 --> 01:57:53,040
Speaker 13: given that there are probably millions of non binary Spanish

2252
01:57:53,040 --> 01:57:55,280
Speaker 13: speaking people, I haven't obviously spoken to all or most

2253
01:57:55,320 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 13: of them, but like, it's very interesting to see this.

2254
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:01,040
Speaker 13: Like outside critique of the language seems to also ignore

2255
01:58:01,080 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 13: an inside movement within people who are Spanish first language

2256
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:09,360
Speaker 13: speakers to create a organic, like gender neutral form, yeah,

2257
01:58:09,440 --> 01:58:12,400
Speaker 13: which could also happen in any language, right, Like, just

2258
01:58:12,440 --> 01:58:15,480
Speaker 13: because Esperanto has a certain form doesn't mean that people

2259
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 13: within that language who don't feel represented by them couldn't

2260
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:22,600
Speaker 13: create forms within that language better represent them exactly. And

2261
01:58:22,600 --> 01:58:25,080
Speaker 13: it's easier because you don't have like a government telling

2262
01:58:25,120 --> 01:58:28,120
Speaker 13: you you can't use it or whatever exactly exactly.

2263
01:58:28,240 --> 01:58:31,840
Speaker 11: Esperanto is and continues to be a grassroots movement, and

2264
01:58:32,320 --> 01:58:34,280
Speaker 11: that has actually been a subject of critique for some.

2265
01:58:35,040 --> 01:58:37,160
Speaker 11: You know, perhaps one of the biggest critiques for Esperando

2266
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:39,720
Speaker 11: is that it never achieved its original goal of becoming

2267
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:44,200
Speaker 11: a universal second language. Zamenhoffit's created envisioned the world with

2268
01:58:44,320 --> 01:58:49,320
Speaker 11: Esperanto would bridge linguistic divides, but for many learner language

2269
01:58:49,360 --> 01:58:53,840
Speaker 11: that relatively few people spoke simply wasn't practical. But the

2270
01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:57,560
Speaker 11: rise of the Internet changed the game for Esperanto. What

2271
01:58:57,760 --> 01:59:00,000
Speaker 11: was once difficult to learn and use daily has become

2272
01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:03,480
Speaker 11: far more accessible. For example, Esperanto is actually one of

2273
01:59:03,480 --> 01:59:08,160
Speaker 11: the most overrepresented languages on the Internet. The Esperanto Wikipedia

2274
01:59:08,280 --> 01:59:11,520
Speaker 11: has around two hundred and forty thousand articles, putting it

2275
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:13,840
Speaker 11: in the same league as languages spoken by tens of

2276
01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 11: millions of people, like Turkish and Korean. Google and Facebook

2277
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:21,520
Speaker 11: have offered Esperanto versions of their platforms for years, and

2278
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 11: language learning services like due Lingo have helped introduce it

2279
01:59:24,560 --> 01:59:28,240
Speaker 11: to a new generation of learners like myself. In fact,

2280
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:30,760
Speaker 11: the people who developed Esperanto courses for due Lingo did

2281
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:34,520
Speaker 11: so voluntarily, simply because they believed in the languages potential.

2282
01:59:35,720 --> 01:59:39,280
Speaker 11: Esperanto has fostered a unique online community, and there's even

2283
01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:43,600
Speaker 11: a free hospitality network called Pasporta Servo where Esperanto speakers

2284
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:47,000
Speaker 11: can stay with each other around the world, no money required,

2285
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:50,879
Speaker 11: just a shared language and a common philosophy of global connection.

2286
01:59:51,920 --> 01:59:55,880
Speaker 11: Not everyone learns Esperanto for the same reasons. Some people

2287
01:59:55,920 --> 01:59:59,480
Speaker 11: seek intellectual challenge, some want a sense of unique community,

2288
01:59:59,760 --> 02:00:03,520
Speaker 11: and others are drawn to its political neutrality. As communications

2289
02:00:03,560 --> 02:00:07,160
Speaker 11: lecturer Sara Marino points out in the BBC article, people

2290
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:11,600
Speaker 11: engage in Esperanto for many different motivations, whether it's personal fulfillment,

2291
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:15,760
Speaker 11: social inclusion, civic engagement, or just the simple joy of

2292
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:19,000
Speaker 11: learning a new language. It's important and not to reduce

2293
02:00:19,120 --> 02:00:22,800
Speaker 11: Esperanto learners to a stereotype. Their reasons for participating are

2294
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:27,680
Speaker 11: as diverse as the language itself. So where does Esperanto

2295
02:00:27,760 --> 02:00:31,560
Speaker 11: stand today? It may never replace English as the global

2296
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:35,560
Speaker 11: lingui franca, but perhaps there was never the point. Instead,

2297
02:00:35,800 --> 02:00:39,200
Speaker 11: it serves as a tool for promoting bilingualism, foster and

2298
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:43,640
Speaker 11: cross cultural connections, and encouraging people to think differently about

2299
02:00:43,800 --> 02:00:48,520
Speaker 11: language itself. And I think that is worthy of its

2300
02:00:48,520 --> 02:00:52,400
Speaker 11: own reward. That's what I have for today, or power

2301
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:54,040
Speaker 11: to all the people. Peace.

2302
02:01:16,920 --> 02:01:20,360
Speaker 3: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly

2303
02:01:20,440 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 3: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2304
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:25,680
Speaker 3: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

2305
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:29,280
Speaker 3: I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans.

2306
02:01:29,920 --> 02:01:32,520
Speaker 3: This week we're covering the week of April third to

2307
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:38,600
Speaker 3: April ninth. We have recovered from the liberation day, fully liberated,

2308
02:01:39,080 --> 02:01:41,720
Speaker 3: and now the economy is back to normal.

2309
02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:49,080
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, everything's really good. Everyone's four oh one k's

2310
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:53,120
Speaker 2: have been normal and stable and stable and stable. That's

2311
02:01:53,120 --> 02:01:53,840
Speaker 2: what's important.

2312
02:01:54,320 --> 02:01:55,360
Speaker 9: Just line go up.

2313
02:01:55,440 --> 02:01:58,800
Speaker 2: The economy runs from stability. I mean one of the

2314
02:01:58,800 --> 02:02:01,480
Speaker 2: things the line did was go up. So, yeah, the

2315
02:02:01,880 --> 02:02:06,160
Speaker 2: line's gone. Why should anyone complain? Yeah, line's going in

2316
02:02:06,200 --> 02:02:09,280
Speaker 2: a few different directions this week. Among the different directions

2317
02:02:09,320 --> 02:02:12,360
Speaker 2: the line went up, was you know a portion of

2318
02:02:12,360 --> 02:02:12,840
Speaker 2: that time.

2319
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 9: Yes, yeah.

2320
02:02:14,360 --> 02:02:16,640
Speaker 13: A direction that hasn't gone is left. I guess which

2321
02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:18,520
Speaker 13: you know we're waiting for that one.

2322
02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:21,800
Speaker 2: And related news, a dead cat can bounce. I don't

2323
02:02:21,840 --> 02:02:24,400
Speaker 2: know why they picked the cat for the dead animal

2324
02:02:24,480 --> 02:02:27,320
Speaker 2: to bounce to refer to that stock market there.

2325
02:02:27,480 --> 02:02:29,280
Speaker 13: But I think this is a term that's new to Garrison,

2326
02:02:29,400 --> 02:02:31,240
Speaker 13: just judging by the facial expression.

2327
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:33,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, you don't know what that is.

2328
02:02:34,120 --> 02:02:37,840
Speaker 2: So basically, when when a stock price for a company

2329
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:41,040
Speaker 2: or whatever collapses right, there will generally be it will

2330
02:02:41,360 --> 02:02:43,920
Speaker 2: straight a line down and then it will bump back

2331
02:02:44,000 --> 02:02:46,440
Speaker 2: up and it will look like it's rallying. But this

2332
02:02:46,720 --> 02:02:49,040
Speaker 2: isn't generally a rally. What it is is that when

2333
02:02:49,080 --> 02:02:52,320
Speaker 2: people like short a stock, there's a point at which

2334
02:02:52,360 --> 02:02:56,960
Speaker 2: they have to like buy back the share like shares,

2335
02:02:57,040 --> 02:03:00,640
Speaker 2: and that artificially inflates it briefly, but for it then

2336
02:03:00,760 --> 02:03:03,520
Speaker 2: begins to decline again. So it's not a real it's

2337
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:06,560
Speaker 2: the result of how short selling works that there has

2338
02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:08,680
Speaker 2: to be this thing that makes it temporarily look like

2339
02:03:08,720 --> 02:03:10,880
Speaker 2: it's rallying, but that that's really not what's happening.

2340
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with this concept.

2341
02:03:13,440 --> 02:03:15,520
Speaker 9: And they call it a dead cat. It's referred to

2342
02:03:15,560 --> 02:03:16,400
Speaker 9: as a dead cat bounce.

2343
02:03:16,440 --> 02:03:16,600
Speaker 11: Yeh.

2344
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:18,800
Speaker 2: I don't know why it's referred to as a dead

2345
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:19,880
Speaker 2: cat bounce, but it is.

2346
02:03:20,600 --> 02:03:24,680
Speaker 3: Brocas and not normal people. Then why these these are

2347
02:03:24,680 --> 02:03:25,480
Speaker 3: Wall Street guys.

2348
02:03:25,760 --> 02:03:27,880
Speaker 7: One of them has probably done it, like that's that's

2349
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:29,120
Speaker 7: probably why it's called that.

2350
02:03:29,320 --> 02:03:32,360
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, I've thrown a lot of corpses at a

2351
02:03:32,400 --> 02:03:34,160
Speaker 2: lot of things and they don't really bounce.

2352
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:38,320
Speaker 3: Speaking of corpses, Robert, you have some exciting news on

2353
02:03:38,400 --> 02:03:39,000
Speaker 3: the army.

2354
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:40,800
Speaker 9: Pronounce Col Garrison.

2355
02:03:41,000 --> 02:03:44,480
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, the good news is the army is going

2356
02:03:44,560 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 2: to be more lethal and efficient than ever before, which

2357
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:52,840
Speaker 2: President Trump announced while sitting in the White House next

2358
02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:56,040
Speaker 2: to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin net and Yahoo, who had

2359
02:03:56,080 --> 02:03:58,160
Speaker 2: to take roughly at twice the length of trip he

2360
02:03:58,240 --> 02:04:00,360
Speaker 2: normally has to take to go here because so many

2361
02:04:00,400 --> 02:04:02,800
Speaker 2: countries that he would normally fly over or stop in

2362
02:04:03,200 --> 02:04:05,520
Speaker 2: have arrest warrants out for him for all of the

2363
02:04:05,560 --> 02:04:10,000
Speaker 2: war crimes. We love to see it, but you know,

2364
02:04:10,640 --> 02:04:13,080
Speaker 2: it's not about the journey. It's about you know, the

2365
02:04:13,120 --> 02:04:16,840
Speaker 2: people you journey too. And Netanyahoo met with Trump, you know,

2366
02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:20,600
Speaker 2: someone whom he clearly feels very safe, and you know,

2367
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:23,600
Speaker 2: I dare I say loving with and the two of

2368
02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:27,000
Speaker 2: them shared the most intimate bond that two elderly men

2369
02:04:27,120 --> 02:04:29,880
Speaker 2: who have committed war crimes can share, which is announcing

2370
02:04:30,360 --> 02:04:33,520
Speaker 2: a record budget for the United States military of one

2371
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:37,280
Speaker 2: trillion dollars. Well, I should say, Trump stated it would

2372
02:04:37,280 --> 02:04:40,880
Speaker 2: be in the vicinity of one trillion dollars. Now, does

2373
02:04:40,920 --> 02:04:43,560
Speaker 2: that mean possibly that very little is changing about the

2374
02:04:43,600 --> 02:04:46,480
Speaker 2: military budget? Yes, it does, and we'll get to that

2375
02:04:46,560 --> 02:04:49,600
Speaker 2: in a second, hag Seth, our secretary of Defense, made

2376
02:04:49,640 --> 02:04:52,680
Speaker 2: a post on Twitter right after saying Trump is rebuilding

2377
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 2: our military and fast. He also really bragged about that

2378
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:59,280
Speaker 2: trillion dollar amount and said, ps, we intend to spend

2379
02:04:59,320 --> 02:05:02,720
Speaker 2: every tax pay dollar wisely on lethality and readiness.

2380
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:06,440
Speaker 9: Now here's the thing. Trillion dollars shitload of money.

2381
02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:10,640
Speaker 2: Current amount of funding allocated to national defense programs eight

2382
02:05:10,720 --> 02:05:13,960
Speaker 2: hundred and ninety two billion dollars, so trillion dollars about

2383
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:17,879
Speaker 2: a ten percent bump right for you know, the national

2384
02:05:17,920 --> 02:05:21,640
Speaker 2: defense programs. But it's actually unclear the way in which

2385
02:05:21,640 --> 02:05:23,760
Speaker 2: he phrased things and the way in which we like

2386
02:05:23,840 --> 02:05:27,760
Speaker 2: talk about the funding for national security, this could mean

2387
02:05:27,800 --> 02:05:31,200
Speaker 2: that basically the military will have pretty much the same,

2388
02:05:31,280 --> 02:05:33,520
Speaker 2: you know, something of an increase but not a mass,

2389
02:05:33,560 --> 02:05:35,680
Speaker 2: not really a significant difference from what it has now,

2390
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:39,440
Speaker 2: and there will be more money into other defense related programs.

2391
02:05:39,960 --> 02:05:43,040
Speaker 2: So this is not like as massive a thing as

2392
02:05:43,080 --> 02:05:46,880
Speaker 2: it might necessarily sound like. I think one thing that's

2393
02:05:46,880 --> 02:05:50,040
Speaker 2: sort of significant here is like how this comports with

2394
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:52,640
Speaker 2: the way a lot of the folks and what we'll

2395
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:54,760
Speaker 2: call the shit had left had talked about where there

2396
02:05:54,800 --> 02:05:58,000
Speaker 2: was this discussion that Trump's actually going to be you know,

2397
02:05:58,080 --> 02:06:01,520
Speaker 2: bad for imperialism and the world machine. And you know,

2398
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:03,200
Speaker 2: there was even talk as of a couple of months

2399
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:05,520
Speaker 2: ago that they were going to like half the Pentagon budget,

2400
02:06:05,720 --> 02:06:08,200
Speaker 2: like you know, you know all these whatever else happens,

2401
02:06:08,240 --> 02:06:10,880
Speaker 2: you know, it's worth it if the military budget comes

2402
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:15,320
Speaker 2: down in this you know, imperial juggernaut of hell gets

2403
02:06:15,360 --> 02:06:19,240
Speaker 2: finally neutered. And just all of those people are always wrong.

2404
02:06:19,320 --> 02:06:21,480
Speaker 2: They were always going to just make the army bigger.

2405
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:23,400
Speaker 2: They were always going to put more money in defense.

2406
02:06:23,440 --> 02:06:25,440
Speaker 2: They were always going to put more money into the

2407
02:06:25,480 --> 02:06:29,760
Speaker 2: hands of defense contractors. Like anyone who knows anything about

2408
02:06:29,760 --> 02:06:31,920
Speaker 2: these people or about how Republicans have worked, knew that

2409
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:34,440
Speaker 2: was going to happen. There was never any chance that

2410
02:06:34,480 --> 02:06:38,360
Speaker 2: they were going to cut the actual amount of money.

2411
02:06:38,440 --> 02:06:40,720
Speaker 2: Now they're probably going to cut the number of people

2412
02:06:40,760 --> 02:06:43,600
Speaker 2: in the military because despite what heck Seth said, there's

2413
02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:45,280
Speaker 2: a lot of evidence that a shitload of this is

2414
02:06:45,320 --> 02:06:48,480
Speaker 2: going to go towards modernization, and in fact, armed services,

2415
02:06:48,560 --> 02:06:50,680
Speaker 2: each branch is being our arm services are all being

2416
02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:53,040
Speaker 2: asked to cut about eight percent of their individual budgets

2417
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:57,280
Speaker 2: in order to put money into modernization. Efforts, which obviously

2418
02:06:57,320 --> 02:07:02,160
Speaker 2: any military needs to regularly modernize different systems. But this

2419
02:07:02,320 --> 02:07:04,280
Speaker 2: is also a thing where if your country is run

2420
02:07:04,400 --> 02:07:07,720
Speaker 2: entirely by grifters and conman trying to shotgun money to

2421
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:10,680
Speaker 2: their political supporters who have a lot of money in

2422
02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:13,760
Speaker 2: different defense companies, what this means to me is you

2423
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:17,320
Speaker 2: are probably going to see them continue to trim numbers

2424
02:07:17,320 --> 02:07:20,720
Speaker 2: of actual troops and put more money into bullshit that

2425
02:07:21,480 --> 02:07:24,720
Speaker 2: gets a lot of money to contractors. Yeah, that is

2426
02:07:24,800 --> 02:07:27,440
Speaker 2: my expectation. That is what I see happening. More than

2427
02:07:27,440 --> 02:07:30,600
Speaker 2: anything here, we'll see, but I think a lot of

2428
02:07:30,600 --> 02:07:34,160
Speaker 2: this additional money is going to go towards buying shit

2429
02:07:34,280 --> 02:07:36,839
Speaker 2: that may or may not be useful. But the primary

2430
02:07:36,840 --> 02:07:39,040
Speaker 2: purpose of putting the money into that shit is because

2431
02:07:39,200 --> 02:07:41,120
Speaker 2: somebody who is somebody gets a veig.

2432
02:07:41,360 --> 02:07:41,600
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2433
02:07:41,640 --> 02:07:44,320
Speaker 13: I mean, if we look at fascism as a concept too,

2434
02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:47,440
Speaker 13: it kind of it has troubled relationship with modernity, but

2435
02:07:47,440 --> 02:07:48,920
Speaker 13: one of the things it likes to do is flex

2436
02:07:48,960 --> 02:07:52,800
Speaker 13: its new little weapon systems and toys. And we're going

2437
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:54,960
Speaker 13: to see some guys posing with some weapon systems that

2438
02:07:55,040 --> 02:07:58,160
Speaker 13: probably never get used, right, like probably some AI targeting

2439
02:07:58,200 --> 02:07:59,000
Speaker 13: shit stuff like that.

2440
02:07:59,120 --> 02:08:01,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, it's does said.

2441
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we got to find some way to reallocate

2442
02:08:05,720 --> 02:08:11,080
Speaker 3: the alleged one and fifty billion dollars in DOGE cuts,

2443
02:08:11,120 --> 02:08:14,080
Speaker 3: which is certainly a fake number, absolutely a fake. We

2444
02:08:14,160 --> 02:08:17,160
Speaker 3: might as well send over two hundred billion more to

2445
02:08:17,240 --> 02:08:18,200
Speaker 3: the Defense Department.

2446
02:08:18,360 --> 02:08:21,720
Speaker 2: Based on early IRS filings, there's something like half a

2447
02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:26,839
Speaker 2: trillion dollars that we might be losing in tax income

2448
02:08:26,880 --> 02:08:30,360
Speaker 2: this year. So you know that I don't think we're

2449
02:08:30,400 --> 02:08:32,920
Speaker 2: doing great. I should also know to hear a big

2450
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:35,760
Speaker 2: part of the money that they're going to get for

2451
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:39,720
Speaker 2: modernizations coming from cutting fifty to sixty thousand civilian jobs,

2452
02:08:40,320 --> 02:08:43,400
Speaker 2: many of whom are veterans, but also just in terms

2453
02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:47,400
Speaker 2: of like military readiness, guys like hag Seth, who's primarily

2454
02:08:47,680 --> 02:08:50,840
Speaker 2: a push up dude, and people who don't know anything

2455
02:08:50,840 --> 02:08:53,360
Speaker 2: about the military see it as like, well, you know,

2456
02:08:53,400 --> 02:08:55,600
Speaker 2: the military, you just want as many door kickers as

2457
02:08:55,640 --> 02:08:57,680
Speaker 2: you possibly can, and you actually need very few of

2458
02:08:57,680 --> 02:08:59,920
Speaker 2: those guys. Would need a lot of is guys that

2459
02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:03,120
Speaker 2: can move things to different places and fix things when

2460
02:09:03,120 --> 02:09:06,120
Speaker 2: they break, and do a lot of the paperwork that's

2461
02:09:06,160 --> 02:09:08,680
Speaker 2: necessary to make both of those things possible, which is

2462
02:09:08,720 --> 02:09:11,720
Speaker 2: why you need those jobs, and cutting a shitload of

2463
02:09:11,760 --> 02:09:15,480
Speaker 2: them is not likely to increase readiness. It's also worth

2464
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:17,840
Speaker 2: noting that the US Army is looking at a force

2465
02:09:17,880 --> 02:09:20,960
Speaker 2: reduction of up to ninety thousand active duty soldiers. This

2466
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:24,000
Speaker 2: is based on an article from April fourth, which is

2467
02:09:24,240 --> 02:09:27,520
Speaker 2: a significant reduction, and again like, we're not.

2468
02:09:27,480 --> 02:09:28,040
Speaker 3: Is that real?

2469
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:28,600
Speaker 9: Yes?

2470
02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:31,640
Speaker 3: Why why are they doing a ninety percent reduction?

2471
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:34,120
Speaker 2: In part because it's very hard for them to find

2472
02:09:34,520 --> 02:09:37,480
Speaker 2: new active duty soldiers. It is not easy to get

2473
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:41,240
Speaker 2: people to do this, and it is not the priority

2474
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:44,000
Speaker 2: of anybody in charge of anything to actually get more soldiers.

2475
02:09:44,040 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 2: The priority is to put more money into systems AI

2476
02:09:47,520 --> 02:09:49,360
Speaker 2: and all this shit. Like, I don't think they have

2477
02:09:49,400 --> 02:09:52,120
Speaker 2: a vested interest in actually helping with that.

2478
02:09:52,600 --> 02:09:55,040
Speaker 3: How are we going to take Greenland with drones?

2479
02:09:55,280 --> 02:09:55,920
Speaker 12: When do we do it?

2480
02:09:56,240 --> 02:09:56,520
Speaker 8: Yeah?

2481
02:09:56,560 --> 02:09:57,000
Speaker 2: Probably?

2482
02:09:57,200 --> 02:09:58,160
Speaker 9: I mean there's not a lot of peace.

2483
02:09:58,840 --> 02:09:59,800
Speaker 3: Probably, how we're going to do it?

2484
02:10:00,200 --> 02:10:02,320
Speaker 2: A lot of people in Greenland Garrison.

2485
02:10:03,400 --> 02:10:07,520
Speaker 3: Excited for the naval blockade of Greenland. Yeah, kick off

2486
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:09,360
Speaker 3: in about two months.

2487
02:10:09,760 --> 02:10:12,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's gonna be great. Anyway, they're gonna make

2488
02:10:13,400 --> 02:10:15,760
Speaker 2: part of why I think they feel confident trying to

2489
02:10:15,760 --> 02:10:18,000
Speaker 2: make you know they're calling this making the army smaller

2490
02:10:18,000 --> 02:10:22,160
Speaker 2: and more agile, is because Trump is doing his best

2491
02:10:22,200 --> 02:10:25,920
Speaker 2: to make friends with Russia and we're certainly not going

2492
02:10:26,000 --> 02:10:28,600
Speaker 2: to whatever happens with Taiwan, the US military is not

2493
02:10:28,600 --> 02:10:29,400
Speaker 2: going to be involved.

2494
02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:32,120
Speaker 9: Yeah. Yeah, we ain't gonna go back for them.

2495
02:10:32,400 --> 02:10:34,120
Speaker 2: You know, his attitude is like, what do we need

2496
02:10:34,160 --> 02:10:36,480
Speaker 2: this for? We need an agile military that we can

2497
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 2: use to fuck with Greenland and Panama. Like that's that's

2498
02:10:39,720 --> 02:10:41,080
Speaker 2: what we're going to be doing.

2499
02:10:41,120 --> 02:10:45,040
Speaker 13: Two very similar biomes where like everything is very similar.

2500
02:10:45,160 --> 02:10:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a lot of people like you know,

2501
02:10:47,800 --> 02:10:50,240
Speaker 2: the folks running Palanteer who have an increasing amount of

2502
02:10:50,280 --> 02:10:52,960
Speaker 2: say in what happens to the military, and you know

2503
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:57,040
Speaker 2: what Trump does, who are basically advocating for, Like we're

2504
02:10:57,040 --> 02:10:59,360
Speaker 2: going to have this whole kill chain automated soon. We

2505
02:10:59,400 --> 02:11:01,800
Speaker 2: barely need people. You can't trust people, you know how

2506
02:11:01,880 --> 02:11:05,360
Speaker 2: untrustworthy your generals have proved. Donald Cool.

2507
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:09,720
Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited for some more Arctic camo surplus to

2508
02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:13,560
Speaker 3: hit the market once yeah, Greenland situation is resolved.

2509
02:11:14,600 --> 02:11:17,480
Speaker 13: I'm excited to be fucking around wondering who a drone's

2510
02:11:17,520 --> 02:11:19,880
Speaker 13: going to kill next. That has been a really life

2511
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:23,040
Speaker 13: affirming experience for me, and I'm excited to have it

2512
02:11:23,080 --> 02:11:23,600
Speaker 13: again soon.

2513
02:11:24,480 --> 02:11:25,320
Speaker 9: It's going to be great.

2514
02:11:26,120 --> 02:11:29,840
Speaker 13: Robbie, you mentioned the IRS and IRS maybe maybe get

2515
02:11:29,920 --> 02:11:31,720
Speaker 13: less money, So I'm going to talk a little bit

2516
02:11:31,720 --> 02:11:32,520
Speaker 13: about the IRS.

2517
02:11:32,840 --> 02:11:34,959
Speaker 9: I guess let's let's start with like a little summary

2518
02:11:34,960 --> 02:11:38,040
Speaker 9: of this week immigration news. This week child Rachik, who

2519
02:11:38,080 --> 02:11:41,240
Speaker 9: is the person who runs libs of TikTok Yeah, joined

2520
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:42,600
Speaker 9: Ice on a raid.

2521
02:11:42,920 --> 02:11:47,360
Speaker 2: She is, shall we say, the uh Julius striker of

2522
02:11:47,800 --> 02:11:48,800
Speaker 2: our modern fashions.

2523
02:11:48,920 --> 02:11:53,400
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you're right.

2524
02:11:53,520 --> 02:11:56,800
Speaker 2: Damn, sorry, I'm just no. I mean, like, I wasn't

2525
02:11:56,880 --> 02:11:59,280
Speaker 2: joking about that. That's the most direct comparison that.

2526
02:11:59,400 --> 02:11:59,600
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2527
02:11:59,640 --> 02:12:01,600
Speaker 13: Sorry, I just took a moment to reflect on that,

2528
02:12:01,680 --> 02:12:03,600
Speaker 13: and it's not a great thing to reflect on.

2529
02:12:03,880 --> 02:12:04,480
Speaker 2: It's really not.

2530
02:12:04,680 --> 02:12:04,800
Speaker 5: Now.

2531
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:05,920
Speaker 2: It doesn't make me feel good.

2532
02:12:06,000 --> 02:12:06,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, No.

2533
02:12:06,840 --> 02:12:08,360
Speaker 13: Other things that don't make me feel good are the

2534
02:12:08,400 --> 02:12:10,760
Speaker 13: sixteen Minutes report is seventy five percent of people since

2535
02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:13,920
Speaker 13: SECO had no criminal conviction, which seems to leave open

2536
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:16,040
Speaker 13: the possibility of there being a crime for which it

2537
02:12:16,080 --> 02:12:18,440
Speaker 13: will be okay to be sent to a foreign goo

2538
02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:21,640
Speaker 13: lag with no hope of return. Which I don't believe

2539
02:12:21,720 --> 02:12:24,600
Speaker 13: is the case. Like, yeah, I'm very disappointed at any

2540
02:12:24,640 --> 02:12:27,520
Speaker 13: reporting which focuses on guilt, as if one could ever

2541
02:12:27,560 --> 02:12:30,400
Speaker 13: be guilty of anything which would make this justifiable, you can't.

2542
02:12:31,200 --> 02:12:34,120
Speaker 13: The government is also soliciting for proposals this week to

2543
02:12:34,160 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 13: massively increase migrant detention, which again is not surprising, right,

2544
02:12:38,920 --> 02:12:42,160
Speaker 13: we talked about this last November, but it's also not great.

2545
02:12:42,240 --> 02:12:44,560
Speaker 13: But where I want to focus today is on the

2546
02:12:44,600 --> 02:12:48,120
Speaker 13: IRS and the Abbudegorgatia case we spoke about last week.

2547
02:12:48,680 --> 02:12:50,840
Speaker 13: So well, it's see inter reporting that the IRS has

2548
02:12:50,840 --> 02:12:52,800
Speaker 13: said it will hand over information of people who are

2549
02:12:52,800 --> 02:12:57,200
Speaker 13: subject to criminal investigation to DHS or ICE, right, ICE

2550
02:12:57,240 --> 02:13:01,160
Speaker 13: being under DHS. They so, they say they What happened

2551
02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:03,080
Speaker 13: here is that if part of court filings, a memorandum

2552
02:13:03,120 --> 02:13:07,080
Speaker 13: of understanding between ICE and the IRS was released in

2553
02:13:07,160 --> 02:13:10,480
Speaker 13: the MoU or in the court filing. Actually they cite

2554
02:13:10,480 --> 02:13:14,520
Speaker 13: an offense of failure to depart the United States after

2555
02:13:14,560 --> 02:13:18,560
Speaker 13: being ordered removed. So essentially anyone who they're saying like,

2556
02:13:19,200 --> 02:13:21,720
Speaker 13: you have to go right, you know that they could

2557
02:13:22,080 --> 02:13:26,000
Speaker 13: they could then ask for their tax return information. Exactly

2558
02:13:26,080 --> 02:13:29,200
Speaker 13: what the IRS will disclose to ICE is covered by

2559
02:13:29,320 --> 02:13:32,080
Speaker 13: a big black reaction in the court documents, so we

2560
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:36,040
Speaker 13: don't know that the entiremus submitted, but like there's significant

2561
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:39,560
Speaker 13: reactions in it, ICE has to hand One thing that's

2562
02:13:39,600 --> 02:13:41,320
Speaker 13: not redacted is that ICE has to hand over the

2563
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:44,200
Speaker 13: person's name, address, and the crime of which they're for

2564
02:13:44,240 --> 02:13:46,880
Speaker 13: which they're investigating, and it has to be a non

2565
02:13:46,920 --> 02:13:47,600
Speaker 13: tax crime.

2566
02:13:47,680 --> 02:13:48,720
Speaker 9: Not that that matter is Huguely.

2567
02:13:49,160 --> 02:13:52,000
Speaker 13: This is more limited than a lot of people have feared,

2568
02:13:52,040 --> 02:13:54,640
Speaker 13: and it's more limited than a lot of the reporting

2569
02:13:54,680 --> 02:13:57,240
Speaker 13: I've seen. It's possible that there's something else going on.

2570
02:13:57,280 --> 02:13:59,040
Speaker 13: I saw the acting director in ICE was going to

2571
02:13:59,120 --> 02:14:02,400
Speaker 13: quit over this that this morning. But the fact that

2572
02:14:02,400 --> 02:14:05,280
Speaker 13: they have to have their address suggests that they couldn't

2573
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 13: locate them using the tax return form, right, which is

2574
02:14:08,720 --> 02:14:10,920
Speaker 13: a good thing, Like it is one last step towards

2575
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:14,040
Speaker 13: vacues from I guess. I'm also aware of ICE having

2576
02:14:14,280 --> 02:14:18,600
Speaker 13: memorandums of understanding with other agencies to include hud housing

2577
02:14:18,600 --> 02:14:21,840
Speaker 13: and urban development. All of this is going to reduce

2578
02:14:22,080 --> 02:14:26,160
Speaker 13: the amount that migrant communities engage with the federal government

2579
02:14:26,360 --> 02:14:28,960
Speaker 13: to any degree. Right, contrary to what you might have heard,

2580
02:14:29,320 --> 02:14:31,960
Speaker 13: undocupateed to people do tend to pay their taxes. It's

2581
02:14:32,000 --> 02:14:34,280
Speaker 13: actually relatively rare for them not to do that, and

2582
02:14:35,080 --> 02:14:37,600
Speaker 13: this might change if the RS starts handing over people's

2583
02:14:37,600 --> 02:14:41,480
Speaker 13: tax return and information to ICE. Right, Obviously, if HUD

2584
02:14:41,560 --> 02:14:44,160
Speaker 13: starts handing over people's information, that's going to lead to

2585
02:14:44,160 --> 02:14:46,280
Speaker 13: people not being as willing to take housing benefits, more

2586
02:14:46,280 --> 02:14:47,680
Speaker 13: people landing up living on the street.

2587
02:14:47,760 --> 02:14:47,920
Speaker 11: Right.

2588
02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:51,920
Speaker 13: On the other hand, Houston City and Texas for those

2589
02:14:51,960 --> 02:14:55,880
Speaker 13: you who aren't familiar, Have I pronounced that right, Robert Tehouse, Yeah,

2590
02:14:56,120 --> 02:14:58,160
Speaker 13: I thought it was. I wasn't sure if it was Houston.

2591
02:14:58,640 --> 02:15:01,400
Speaker 13: Houston House, so understood it.

2592
02:15:01,720 --> 02:15:04,320
Speaker 2: It's a place we just don't go. That's that's that's

2593
02:15:04,320 --> 02:15:05,520
Speaker 2: how I refer to Houston.

2594
02:15:05,760 --> 02:15:06,520
Speaker 9: Okay, beautiful.

2595
02:15:06,600 --> 02:15:08,800
Speaker 13: So this Texas No Men's Land town has turned over

2596
02:15:08,880 --> 02:15:12,880
Speaker 13: information including addresses and license paids for people charged with

2597
02:15:12,960 --> 02:15:15,760
Speaker 13: driving without a license, even though some of this under

2598
02:15:15,840 --> 02:15:18,200
Speaker 13: Texas law is supposed to remain confidential.

2599
02:15:18,600 --> 02:15:19,360
Speaker 9: So that's great.

2600
02:15:19,880 --> 02:15:24,440
Speaker 13: They are also now making immigration detentions at regular traffic stops.

2601
02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:26,960
Speaker 13: Some aware of one incident where a man was arrested

2602
02:15:27,000 --> 02:15:29,840
Speaker 13: after being stopped for a cracked windscreen and he's now

2603
02:15:29,840 --> 02:15:33,040
Speaker 13: an ICE detention so that there was I presumably an

2604
02:15:33,040 --> 02:15:35,320
Speaker 13: ICE warrant for this person that the Houston police then

2605
02:15:35,440 --> 02:15:36,040
Speaker 13: acted upon.

2606
02:15:36,160 --> 02:15:38,800
Speaker 3: I mean, and this is this can just be racial profiling, right,

2607
02:15:38,920 --> 02:15:41,960
Speaker 3: Like if they're going to just pull someone over and

2608
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:44,320
Speaker 3: then send them to ICE, like they're just going to

2609
02:15:44,360 --> 02:15:46,760
Speaker 3: start pulling over as many people that they don't want

2610
02:15:46,840 --> 02:15:47,760
Speaker 3: to be in Houston.

2611
02:15:47,920 --> 02:15:51,000
Speaker 13: Yeah, Like we already know that police departments have a

2612
02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:53,800
Speaker 13: tendency to pull over people who aren't white more often, right,

2613
02:15:54,080 --> 02:15:56,480
Speaker 13: and then like if you give them this, that's just

2614
02:15:56,520 --> 02:15:59,480
Speaker 13: going to exacerbate that further. Again, it's also going to

2615
02:15:59,560 --> 02:16:02,960
Speaker 13: stop my communities interacting with the police in any way.

2616
02:16:03,080 --> 02:16:03,280
Speaker 9: Right.

2617
02:16:03,960 --> 02:16:07,720
Speaker 13: This obviously has look not a big police fan, but

2618
02:16:07,800 --> 02:16:11,400
Speaker 13: like in cases like domestic violence, right, sometimes people need

2619
02:16:11,440 --> 02:16:12,920
Speaker 13: to go to the police to be safe, and they're

2620
02:16:12,960 --> 02:16:14,640
Speaker 13: not going to do so. They think that means they

2621
02:16:14,720 --> 02:16:16,840
Speaker 13: or people they love will be deported and this will

2622
02:16:16,840 --> 02:16:20,720
Speaker 13: have negative consequences, and specifically in cases like domestic violence.

2623
02:16:20,920 --> 02:16:24,720
Speaker 13: And we know this, there is plenty of evidence for this. Nonetheless,

2624
02:16:24,720 --> 02:16:28,800
Speaker 13: this is continuing anyway. What's also continuing is our obligation

2625
02:16:28,840 --> 02:16:30,240
Speaker 13: to pivot to acts, which we should do.

2626
02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:44,000
Speaker 12: Now, Okay, we are back we're.

2627
02:16:43,760 --> 02:16:47,080
Speaker 13: Back and it's time to talk about the Supreme Court.

2628
02:16:47,800 --> 02:16:51,400
Speaker 13: We have to, Yes, yes, we do, Garython, because it's

2629
02:16:51,440 --> 02:16:54,640
Speaker 13: the biggest court. It's the big one, and they're big

2630
02:16:54,680 --> 02:16:59,200
Speaker 13: crushing it all week, just just sending down decisions. The

2631
02:16:59,320 --> 02:17:01,360
Speaker 13: two big ones I guess I want to talk about

2632
02:17:01,440 --> 02:17:05,119
Speaker 13: are a five to four ruling that it was vacating

2633
02:17:05,200 --> 02:17:09,959
Speaker 13: Bosberg's Troro. Bosberg being the judge who had initially told

2634
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:12,760
Speaker 13: the United States government that had to stop sending people

2635
02:17:12,800 --> 02:17:14,840
Speaker 13: to set court right, and then the US had ignored

2636
02:17:14,879 --> 02:17:17,040
Speaker 13: Boseburg and done it anyway, and then they had this

2637
02:17:17,040 --> 02:17:18,959
Speaker 13: whole court case about how they hadn't ignored him and

2638
02:17:19,040 --> 02:17:21,040
Speaker 13: anyway it was a secret. Even though we're tweeting it,

2639
02:17:21,560 --> 02:17:23,240
Speaker 13: you can go back a couple of eds and hear

2640
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:26,960
Speaker 13: about that. In this decision, the Court was unanimous in

2641
02:17:27,080 --> 02:17:30,400
Speaker 13: asserting that people removed under the Alien Enemies Act do

2642
02:17:30,520 --> 02:17:33,840
Speaker 13: have a right to due process, but that they have

2643
02:17:33,959 --> 02:17:37,000
Speaker 13: to bring a habeas petition. So like the reason they

2644
02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:39,600
Speaker 13: vacated to tro was that the case shouldn't have gone

2645
02:17:39,600 --> 02:17:42,560
Speaker 13: to Bosburg right, that they should have bought this habeas petition.

2646
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:45,160
Speaker 13: In practice, that's going to be very hard given the

2647
02:17:45,160 --> 02:17:47,879
Speaker 13: fact that many migrants, even under the current system, even

2648
02:17:47,920 --> 02:17:50,440
Speaker 13: under Biden, most migrantsh didn't speak English didn't have access

2649
02:17:50,440 --> 02:17:55,199
Speaker 13: to legal representation, so this ruling is still pretty bad.

2650
02:17:55,720 --> 02:17:58,720
Speaker 13: The only thing that people in the court case wanted

2651
02:17:58,760 --> 02:18:01,560
Speaker 13: to stop was their rendition to El Salvador, right. It

2652
02:18:01,640 --> 02:18:04,320
Speaker 13: wasn't even like opposed to other forms of removal. It

2653
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:08,480
Speaker 13: was specific to this El Salbador situation. The court also

2654
02:18:08,560 --> 02:18:11,120
Speaker 13: sort of cited criminal cases as precedent, which is a

2655
02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:14,520
Speaker 13: very different thing, and it gives us very narrow ruling

2656
02:18:14,879 --> 02:18:17,680
Speaker 13: of the due process available to migrants rate and it

2657
02:18:17,720 --> 02:18:19,760
Speaker 13: relies on my having access to a legal team, which

2658
02:18:19,800 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 13: could be expensive and complicated for them.

2659
02:18:22,480 --> 02:18:27,240
Speaker 3: So this ruling allows Troup administration to send people to

2660
02:18:27,360 --> 02:18:30,959
Speaker 3: El Salvador as as long as they have the quote

2661
02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:35,280
Speaker 3: unquote right to do process, which is narrowly defined as

2662
02:18:35,280 --> 02:18:38,720
Speaker 3: something that not many people will have access to anyway.

2663
02:18:39,240 --> 02:18:42,680
Speaker 13: Yes, yeah, well summarized, yeah, you would need to have

2664
02:18:42,800 --> 02:18:45,800
Speaker 13: like a lawyer on retainer to file your habas right

2665
02:18:45,879 --> 02:18:46,600
Speaker 13: leg straight away.

2666
02:18:46,640 --> 02:18:49,320
Speaker 3: So if that just doesn't get filed, then you are

2667
02:18:49,320 --> 02:18:52,240
Speaker 3: basically in their view forfeiting your due process and they

2668
02:18:52,280 --> 02:18:53,360
Speaker 3: can deport you anywhere.

2669
02:18:53,720 --> 02:18:55,720
Speaker 9: Well, they can deport you anyway.

2670
02:18:55,800 --> 02:18:58,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, I guess you have the right to appeal it,

2671
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:02,160
Speaker 13: like by saying like I want to file this habeas petition,

2672
02:19:03,160 --> 02:19:05,360
Speaker 13: but most people aren't going to do that, so in

2673
02:19:05,400 --> 02:19:09,640
Speaker 13: practice that they haven't explicitly ruled on the zecoric thing.

2674
02:19:09,760 --> 02:19:12,200
Speaker 13: Right the Aberigo Garcia case, which is the other case,

2675
02:19:12,760 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 13: a Fourth Circuit judge required the US to return Abergogarcia

2676
02:19:15,920 --> 02:19:18,560
Speaker 13: to the US, and then Chief Justice Roberts on his

2677
02:19:18,680 --> 02:19:23,320
Speaker 13: own issued in an administrative stay, so he is effectively

2678
02:19:23,360 --> 02:19:27,200
Speaker 13: telling them that Fourth Circuit judge, you can't order them

2679
02:19:27,240 --> 02:19:30,720
Speaker 13: to have him return right now. We need to take

2680
02:19:30,760 --> 02:19:33,080
Speaker 13: a time out. We need everybody to get their evidence

2681
02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:36,680
Speaker 13: in order and then bring that to us, so that

2682
02:19:36,800 --> 02:19:39,680
Speaker 13: case like remains ongoing.

2683
02:19:39,959 --> 02:19:43,279
Speaker 9: Right in the brief for that case, the government.

2684
02:19:43,000 --> 02:19:47,040
Speaker 13: Referred to Abligo Garcia as an enemy alien. But I

2685
02:19:47,080 --> 02:19:50,200
Speaker 13: don't think MS thirteen is covered by the evocation of

2686
02:19:50,240 --> 02:19:52,400
Speaker 13: the Alien Enemies Act. I think it was specific to

2687
02:19:52,400 --> 02:19:55,920
Speaker 13: trend deer Ragua. And then they also claim that they

2688
02:19:56,000 --> 02:19:59,240
Speaker 13: removed him under the Immigration Nationality Act, not the Alien

2689
02:19:59,320 --> 02:20:02,680
Speaker 13: Enemies Act. So like, none of this, I guess is

2690
02:20:02,800 --> 02:20:05,240
Speaker 13: hugely surprising we're seeing this like sort of post hoc

2691
02:20:05,400 --> 02:20:07,800
Speaker 13: justification of what they did, right, which is kind of

2692
02:20:07,800 --> 02:20:11,360
Speaker 13: how they operate. But that case still remains ongoing, so

2693
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:14,360
Speaker 13: we're still we're still going to hear that one, which

2694
02:20:14,560 --> 02:20:18,360
Speaker 13: presumably will reflect on the constitutionality of sending people to

2695
02:20:18,400 --> 02:20:20,959
Speaker 13: said cod But like the fact that, yeah, they ruled

2696
02:20:21,080 --> 02:20:24,000
Speaker 13: the other case, right, the one that was five to four,

2697
02:20:24,400 --> 02:20:26,360
Speaker 13: It wasn't about whether said cock was legal. It was

2698
02:20:26,360 --> 02:20:29,440
Speaker 13: about where the Bosberg had the right to make a

2699
02:20:29,520 --> 02:20:31,400
Speaker 13: decision on this particular case.

2700
02:20:31,959 --> 02:20:33,520
Speaker 9: But it's still not great.

2701
02:20:33,560 --> 02:20:35,600
Speaker 13: Like it looks like the Supreme Court is doing everything

2702
02:20:35,640 --> 02:20:38,520
Speaker 13: it can to avoid a face to face showdown with

2703
02:20:38,600 --> 02:20:41,840
Speaker 13: the executive branch. Yeah, because they don't want to deal

2704
02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:43,360
Speaker 13: with the consequences of be ignoring them.

2705
02:20:43,959 --> 02:20:44,359
Speaker 3: Nope.

2706
02:20:44,640 --> 02:20:47,080
Speaker 13: And like we said before, like maybe the only court

2707
02:20:47,080 --> 02:20:48,720
Speaker 13: that they will listen to is a Supreme Court. Whether

2708
02:20:48,720 --> 02:20:50,320
Speaker 13: the Supreme Court doesn't make them, then they won't.

2709
02:20:50,400 --> 02:20:53,120
Speaker 3: So that's where we're at with that. Not great, not

2710
02:20:53,200 --> 02:20:56,000
Speaker 3: exactly great at all. Well, do you know what is

2711
02:20:56,040 --> 02:20:59,840
Speaker 3: doing great? The economy? And for more on that, I

2712
02:20:59,840 --> 02:21:02,000
Speaker 3: think I think it's time for tariff talk with me

2713
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:02,879
Speaker 3: a wong.

2714
02:21:02,959 --> 02:21:11,160
Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, tariff talk.

2715
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:12,360
Speaker 3: Jazz rock, jazz, bar.

2716
02:21:13,800 --> 02:21:19,480
Speaker 9: Locking jazzy jazz.

2717
02:21:19,600 --> 02:21:24,879
Speaker 2: B ah yeah, every day, every time we do it.

2718
02:21:25,160 --> 02:21:28,600
Speaker 15: The only band that matters is the only band that matters.

2719
02:21:28,640 --> 02:21:35,280
Speaker 15: The Narcissist Cookbook doing a very brief refrain from Rocks,

2720
02:21:35,320 --> 02:21:36,520
Speaker 15: the worst clash song.

2721
02:21:37,160 --> 02:21:39,640
Speaker 13: By a white margin, the only clash song from the

2722
02:21:39,720 --> 02:21:44,119
Speaker 13: plagiar in Operation Desert Storm, which summer cry.

2723
02:21:44,840 --> 02:21:46,040
Speaker 9: A real catastrophe?

2724
02:21:46,560 --> 02:21:49,880
Speaker 3: Do you know what is in't a catastrophe? The economy?

2725
02:21:50,040 --> 02:21:50,680
Speaker 7: How's it going?

2726
02:21:52,240 --> 02:21:52,320
Speaker 8: So?

2727
02:21:52,480 --> 02:21:55,360
Speaker 7: I just I just saw a wonderful chart where someone

2728
02:21:55,520 --> 02:21:57,200
Speaker 7: was like, ah, this is this is one of the

2729
02:21:57,240 --> 02:21:59,400
Speaker 7: eight best days the SMP has ever had in every

2730
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:02,720
Speaker 7: single other one of those days is like nineteen twenty nine,

2731
02:22:03,040 --> 02:22:05,279
Speaker 7: nineteen thirty one, thousand age.

2732
02:22:05,440 --> 02:22:12,560
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's one of the best days. From Mount Saint

2733
02:22:12,560 --> 02:22:16,160
Speaker 13: Helen's Equality. Yeah yeah, so good.

2734
02:22:16,640 --> 02:22:17,600
Speaker 9: So all right.

2735
02:22:18,000 --> 02:22:21,560
Speaker 7: The terriff situation as of two forty three pm Pacific

2736
02:22:21,600 --> 02:22:24,240
Speaker 7: time on April ninth.

2737
02:22:24,440 --> 02:22:28,000
Speaker 2: Is that there is mine going good.

2738
02:22:29,120 --> 02:22:31,320
Speaker 9: It's gotta be cool, guys, don't worry about it.

2739
02:22:32,560 --> 02:22:35,039
Speaker 7: Okay, So there isn't one hundred and twenty five percent

2740
02:22:35,120 --> 02:22:36,960
Speaker 7: tariff on all goods from China?

2741
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:38,119
Speaker 3: Is that bad?

2742
02:22:39,360 --> 02:22:42,000
Speaker 7: I Uh, you know, there's a bit that I cut

2743
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:46,200
Speaker 7: here where I was gonna say about how like at

2744
02:22:46,280 --> 02:22:49,800
Speaker 7: fifty four percent, I was like, we've entered the part

2745
02:22:49,840 --> 02:22:51,320
Speaker 7: of the map where it just says here there would

2746
02:22:51,320 --> 02:22:54,000
Speaker 7: be dragons. At one hundred and twenty five percent, there's

2747
02:22:54,000 --> 02:22:56,400
Speaker 7: not even dragons there that they didn't even think to

2748
02:22:56,480 --> 02:22:59,879
Speaker 7: put that on the map as an unknown region. Hi,

2749
02:23:00,160 --> 02:23:02,840
Speaker 7: this is Mia from the future. It is now Thursday.

2750
02:23:02,879 --> 02:23:05,080
Speaker 7: One of the problems with attempting to do this episode

2751
02:23:05,840 --> 02:23:09,640
Speaker 7: is that we are learning the teriff rate from Twitter

2752
02:23:09,720 --> 02:23:13,800
Speaker 7: in real time. So it turns out that the actual

2753
02:23:13,879 --> 02:23:18,360
Speaker 7: tariff rate on China, as as clarified by by Donald

2754
02:23:18,400 --> 02:23:23,320
Speaker 7: Trump today, is one hundred and forty five percent. And

2755
02:23:23,520 --> 02:23:25,800
Speaker 7: also it has become clear that the twenty five percent

2756
02:23:25,879 --> 02:23:30,000
Speaker 7: turf tariffs on both Mexico and Canada are also still

2757
02:23:30,040 --> 02:23:32,879
Speaker 7: in effect. So yay.

2758
02:23:34,360 --> 02:23:37,640
Speaker 2: In medical terms, it means what happened to the global

2759
02:23:37,680 --> 02:23:41,320
Speaker 2: economy is equivalent to you getting hit directly in the

2760
02:23:41,360 --> 02:23:44,720
Speaker 2: spine by an F two fifty going forty five miles

2761
02:23:44,760 --> 02:23:47,920
Speaker 2: an hour. That's that's that's what's happened to the base

2762
02:23:48,080 --> 02:23:49,439
Speaker 2: of the global economy.

2763
02:23:49,959 --> 02:23:52,400
Speaker 7: Yes, and I mean it's it is very funny that

2764
02:23:52,480 --> 02:23:53,879
Speaker 7: like a lot of people have been focusing on the

2765
02:23:53,920 --> 02:23:55,880
Speaker 7: bond stuff because you can just look at the tariff

2766
02:23:55,920 --> 02:23:58,960
Speaker 7: numbers and it's like like, yeah, okay, seeing a one

2767
02:23:59,000 --> 02:24:01,360
Speaker 7: hundred and twenty five sent tariff on all goods from

2768
02:24:01,440 --> 02:24:03,480
Speaker 7: China and then looking at the bond markets to figure

2769
02:24:03,480 --> 02:24:06,120
Speaker 7: out if that's bad or not is like is like

2770
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:08,360
Speaker 7: walking outside into a blizzard and being like, whoa, I

2771
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:10,120
Speaker 7: need the weather rather tell me if it's knowing, like,

2772
02:24:10,600 --> 02:24:12,520
Speaker 7: what are we doing here? What are we doing here?

2773
02:24:13,040 --> 02:24:16,560
Speaker 2: The reason I'll explain, like briefly, treasury bonds are the

2774
02:24:16,680 --> 02:24:20,440
Speaker 2: underpinning of every country, the entire global economy. Every single

2775
02:24:20,480 --> 02:24:23,440
Speaker 2: country has a shitload of money in US treasury bonds

2776
02:24:23,879 --> 02:24:26,160
Speaker 2: because they are the most reliable thing. And what a

2777
02:24:26,160 --> 02:24:28,400
Speaker 2: treasury bond is is you give money to the US

2778
02:24:28,480 --> 02:24:31,000
Speaker 2: government and they say, in a period of time you

2779
02:24:31,040 --> 02:24:32,720
Speaker 2: can take this out and it will have grown by

2780
02:24:32,720 --> 02:24:37,680
Speaker 2: a set percentage. Because treasury bonds have been for the

2781
02:24:37,800 --> 02:24:41,879
Speaker 2: last basically a century, so incredibly stable. This is where

2782
02:24:41,920 --> 02:24:44,279
Speaker 2: you put your money that you don't want to gamble.

2783
02:24:44,360 --> 02:24:46,720
Speaker 2: So you have money that is in stocks and stuff

2784
02:24:46,720 --> 02:24:48,720
Speaker 2: that can go up and down, but you also head

2785
02:24:48,720 --> 02:24:50,760
Speaker 2: your bets by having a bunch of this. And you know,

2786
02:24:50,959 --> 02:24:54,320
Speaker 2: generally treasury bonds are hopefully enough to about keep pace

2787
02:24:54,400 --> 02:24:57,039
Speaker 2: with inflation or beat it by a little bit, but

2788
02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:00,800
Speaker 2: usually the rate is not all that high because there's

2789
02:25:00,840 --> 02:25:04,279
Speaker 2: a shitload of demand. People are always buying treasury bonds.

2790
02:25:04,920 --> 02:25:07,680
Speaker 2: When the treasury bond rate, which is the percentage you

2791
02:25:07,720 --> 02:25:10,840
Speaker 2: get back, raises, that may look good, right, they're like, wow,

2792
02:25:10,840 --> 02:25:13,440
Speaker 2: you get five percent now on if you put money

2793
02:25:13,440 --> 02:25:16,000
Speaker 2: into a into a thirty year T bond. But what

2794
02:25:16,040 --> 02:25:20,040
Speaker 2: that means is that everyone is selling their treasury bonds.

2795
02:25:20,320 --> 02:25:22,800
Speaker 2: So demand is down and the rate is higher, and

2796
02:25:22,840 --> 02:25:26,080
Speaker 2: everyone is selling them because entire countries at a time

2797
02:25:26,200 --> 02:25:29,240
Speaker 2: are pulling their money out. Nations are pulling their money

2798
02:25:29,280 --> 02:25:30,400
Speaker 2: out of the US economy.

2799
02:25:30,520 --> 02:25:33,199
Speaker 7: It's great, yeah, And we are going to get more

2800
02:25:33,320 --> 02:25:36,720
Speaker 7: into how through administration wants to fuck with that later.

2801
02:25:37,480 --> 02:25:40,560
Speaker 7: But first off, programming note, programming note, I am going

2802
02:25:40,600 --> 02:25:42,720
Speaker 7: to be from this episode forward referring to all of

2803
02:25:42,760 --> 02:25:46,320
Speaker 7: these as the turf tariffs, because fuck them, and because

2804
02:25:46,360 --> 02:25:49,160
Speaker 7: these tariffs are in a large part also about a

2805
02:25:49,160 --> 02:25:51,279
Speaker 7: bunch of really weird fucking masculinity bullshit.

2806
02:25:51,400 --> 02:25:54,640
Speaker 3: So God excited for that yeah, and when you make

2807
02:25:54,680 --> 02:25:57,520
Speaker 3: most of your election ads being about yeah, trans people,

2808
02:25:57,800 --> 02:26:00,000
Speaker 3: and then and then the economy goes to the toilet.

2809
02:26:00,200 --> 02:26:01,840
Speaker 3: This is this is what was voted for.

2810
02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:04,160
Speaker 7: Like, if if you wanted transphobia, this is what you wanted.

2811
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:06,000
Speaker 7: You want you wanted to lose your job, you wanted

2812
02:26:06,040 --> 02:26:07,280
Speaker 7: everyone to lose their fucking home.

2813
02:26:07,320 --> 02:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Speaking at Tea Bonds, am I right, let's keep over

2814
02:26:10,879 --> 02:26:11,720
Speaker 2: that immediately.

2815
02:26:12,120 --> 02:26:13,560
Speaker 12: No, no, no.

2816
02:26:14,120 --> 02:26:18,320
Speaker 7: One law for him, go away, okay, okay. So, so

2817
02:26:18,560 --> 02:26:20,920
Speaker 7: the most the most chaotic thing happening here, other than

2818
02:26:21,040 --> 02:26:28,000
Speaker 7: Robert randomly saying things, is that nobody knows what the

2819
02:26:28,000 --> 02:26:31,160
Speaker 7: tariff situation is going to be, just even just on

2820
02:26:31,280 --> 02:26:34,720
Speaker 7: Friday when you're listening to this, right, like you, by

2821
02:26:34,720 --> 02:26:36,480
Speaker 7: the time you were listening to this, there could be

2822
02:26:36,520 --> 02:26:38,920
Speaker 7: two hundred percent teriffs on Indonesia. There could be four

2823
02:26:38,920 --> 02:26:41,920
Speaker 7: thousand percent terroriffs on Vietnam. We don't know.

2824
02:26:42,240 --> 02:26:42,320
Speaker 4: No.

2825
02:26:42,480 --> 02:26:45,400
Speaker 2: Trump could have dissolved the US dollar and we're all

2826
02:26:45,480 --> 02:26:48,760
Speaker 2: using the fucking d or whatever, like I know, I

2827
02:26:48,760 --> 02:26:49,160
Speaker 2: don't know.

2828
02:26:50,400 --> 02:26:53,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, and like you know, so so it's all really unstable.

2829
02:26:53,640 --> 02:26:55,400
Speaker 7: We can talk about the other things that are still

2830
02:26:55,440 --> 02:26:57,720
Speaker 7: in effect, so that there's a general ten percent tariff

2831
02:26:58,560 --> 02:27:01,640
Speaker 7: on all countries except for China are just supposed to

2832
02:27:01,680 --> 02:27:05,000
Speaker 7: have a general ten percent tariff. There's also the per

2833
02:27:05,040 --> 02:27:09,680
Speaker 7: Megan Cassellos, a CNBC reporter, there are twenty five percent

2834
02:27:09,760 --> 02:27:14,160
Speaker 7: tariffs on steel, aluminum, and cars. There's probably going to

2835
02:27:14,200 --> 02:27:17,440
Speaker 7: be more. He keeps talking about more tariffs, and it's like,

2836
02:27:17,480 --> 02:27:21,080
Speaker 7: who knows where they're gonna happen, like maybe pharmaceuticals, semiconductors.

2837
02:27:21,959 --> 02:27:26,920
Speaker 7: But the Liberation Day tariffs turff tariffs are currently on

2838
02:27:26,959 --> 02:27:27,800
Speaker 7: hold for.

2839
02:27:27,800 --> 02:27:30,200
Speaker 3: Ninety days at least as of right now.

2840
02:27:30,360 --> 02:27:30,560
Speaker 15: Yeah.

2841
02:27:30,640 --> 02:27:33,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the and the quote unquote reciprocal tariffs have

2842
02:27:33,879 --> 02:27:36,920
Speaker 3: been lowered to ten percent for me at least, it's

2843
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:40,000
Speaker 3: unclear as of recording. On Wednesday, Trump said that this

2844
02:27:40,080 --> 02:27:42,240
Speaker 3: is a fact, this is in effect immediately. It's unclear

2845
02:27:42,240 --> 02:27:44,600
Speaker 3: if those ten percent tariffs are also on hold for

2846
02:27:44,720 --> 02:27:45,400
Speaker 3: ninety days.

2847
02:27:45,480 --> 02:27:47,880
Speaker 7: No, I think the tempercent ones are in effect right now.

2848
02:27:47,959 --> 02:27:50,200
Speaker 7: But it's really hard to tell because he's just saying shit.

2849
02:27:50,440 --> 02:27:52,760
Speaker 3: And yes, it's very hard to tell, which I ain't

2850
02:27:52,800 --> 02:27:54,120
Speaker 3: saying it, he's truthing it.

2851
02:27:54,720 --> 02:27:55,720
Speaker 12: Yes, sorry, he is.

2852
02:27:55,840 --> 02:27:57,640
Speaker 3: He is true social ing that this information.

2853
02:27:58,040 --> 02:28:00,360
Speaker 13: That is how we have to work out the global

2854
02:28:00,360 --> 02:28:04,560
Speaker 13: economic future. It's based on posts. I'm true social yeah, so.

2855
02:28:04,360 --> 02:28:06,720
Speaker 7: So okay, And one of the things that's been happening

2856
02:28:06,760 --> 02:28:09,520
Speaker 7: with with the turf tariffs is that, like the media

2857
02:28:09,680 --> 02:28:12,360
Speaker 7: is just is reporting things as true that are just

2858
02:28:12,680 --> 02:28:16,320
Speaker 7: clearly obviously a lie. So one of the ones that's

2859
02:28:16,360 --> 02:28:18,480
Speaker 7: been going around and that the media is reporting that

2860
02:28:18,480 --> 02:28:21,199
Speaker 7: Trump has said is that he's he said he's going

2861
02:28:21,240 --> 02:28:24,200
Speaker 7: to pause tariffs on countries that don't retaliate, except we

2862
02:28:24,280 --> 02:28:27,800
Speaker 7: know that's a lie because the EU already imposed retaliatory tariffs.

2863
02:28:28,040 --> 02:28:31,160
Speaker 7: But the EU's turf tariff rate is like already down

2864
02:28:31,160 --> 02:28:33,680
Speaker 7: to ten percent, just like everyone else. So we know

2865
02:28:34,280 --> 02:28:37,640
Speaker 7: that Trump is lying about his rationale for the rollback

2866
02:28:37,680 --> 02:28:40,760
Speaker 7: of the turf tariffs, right, and every single fucking media

2867
02:28:40,760 --> 02:28:44,480
Speaker 7: outlet is still just reporting it because nobody fucking knows

2868
02:28:44,800 --> 02:28:47,680
Speaker 7: how to do freaking reporting anymore. We should move to

2869
02:28:48,160 --> 02:28:51,080
Speaker 7: what this is going to do the supply chain, and

2870
02:28:52,000 --> 02:28:54,680
Speaker 7: to put this in perspective. When I learned about the

2871
02:28:54,959 --> 02:28:57,039
Speaker 7: one hundred and four percent tariff on China, that was

2872
02:28:57,080 --> 02:28:59,040
Speaker 7: before it was one hundred and twenty five percent where

2873
02:28:59,040 --> 02:29:01,720
Speaker 7: it's at now, I was writing an episode called The

2874
02:29:01,720 --> 02:29:03,760
Speaker 7: Old economy is dead, which will probably be still be

2875
02:29:03,760 --> 02:29:06,120
Speaker 7: coming out on Monday. Again, that was the fifty four

2876
02:29:06,800 --> 02:29:09,680
Speaker 7: percent rate. I was writing a thing called the old

2877
02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:12,560
Speaker 7: Economy is dead at one hundred and four percent, Like

2878
02:29:12,920 --> 02:29:15,000
Speaker 7: things are going to break in the supply chain that

2879
02:29:15,120 --> 02:29:17,600
Speaker 7: only seven people on Earth have ever heard of before,

2880
02:29:18,000 --> 02:29:20,600
Speaker 7: Like entire sectors of the economy are going to be annihilated.

2881
02:29:20,640 --> 02:29:22,560
Speaker 7: We're going to see right now, we're probably going to

2882
02:29:22,600 --> 02:29:25,840
Speaker 7: see everyone attempt to route like all shipping from China.

2883
02:29:25,840 --> 02:29:27,680
Speaker 7: There's going to be a massive effort to try to

2884
02:29:27,680 --> 02:29:30,440
Speaker 7: reroot it through like literally any other country. But again

2885
02:29:30,600 --> 02:29:35,080
Speaker 7: that's only a solution for like you know, ninety days,

2886
02:29:35,879 --> 02:29:38,400
Speaker 7: and and again it's not even clear that can work.

2887
02:29:38,480 --> 02:29:40,240
Speaker 7: I mean, I'm already seeing a bunch of reports swamp

2888
02:29:40,240 --> 02:29:42,240
Speaker 7: business as being like, yeah, we're fucked because and that

2889
02:29:42,360 --> 02:29:44,920
Speaker 7: was the four percent tariffs, and at one hundred and

2890
02:29:45,000 --> 02:29:50,760
Speaker 7: twenty five percent, entire industries are non viable. Now it's

2891
02:29:50,840 --> 02:29:54,920
Speaker 7: maybe possible that if it was just these tariffs and

2892
02:29:55,040 --> 02:29:58,920
Speaker 7: such an all Chinese shipping was able to be routed

2893
02:29:58,959 --> 02:30:02,959
Speaker 7: through some other country, maybe we would only have a

2894
02:30:03,000 --> 02:30:06,520
Speaker 7: regular economic collapse like a like you know, like an

2895
02:30:06,560 --> 02:30:09,560
Speaker 7: early two thousands tech bubble collapse and not like a

2896
02:30:09,600 --> 02:30:11,400
Speaker 7: two thousand and eight one. But again that's the same

2897
02:30:11,440 --> 02:30:13,560
Speaker 7: thing that note moti war tariffs go into effect. Now,

2898
02:30:13,879 --> 02:30:17,200
Speaker 7: the problem is that we went through this with the

2899
02:30:17,280 --> 02:30:20,520
Speaker 7: ninety day pauses on the Mexican tariffs and the Canadian tariffs,

2900
02:30:20,520 --> 02:30:22,480
Speaker 7: and then after ninety days everyone assumed they weren't going

2901
02:30:22,480 --> 02:30:23,959
Speaker 7: to go to efect again. Then they just went to effect.

2902
02:30:24,879 --> 02:30:28,000
Speaker 7: So the odds are of that the absolutely catastrophic turf

2903
02:30:28,040 --> 02:30:30,320
Speaker 7: tariffs from like Liberation Day are going to go into

2904
02:30:30,360 --> 02:30:34,120
Speaker 7: effect in about ninety days, right, that that's probably what's

2905
02:30:34,160 --> 02:30:36,520
Speaker 7: going to happen. There's probably going to be some attempts

2906
02:30:36,520 --> 02:30:39,760
Speaker 7: to negotiate them down, but like again, those absolutely catastrophic

2907
02:30:39,800 --> 02:30:42,160
Speaker 7: tariffs which are going to just fucking annihilate the entire

2908
02:30:42,160 --> 02:30:45,360
Speaker 7: world economy, are probably going to go into effect. And

2909
02:30:46,000 --> 02:30:48,640
Speaker 7: you know, part of what's happening here, right is that

2910
02:30:49,959 --> 02:30:52,840
Speaker 7: so the markets are doing this, they're like dead cat bounce, right,

2911
02:30:52,920 --> 02:30:54,680
Speaker 7: And a lot of this is because they haven't actually

2912
02:30:55,520 --> 02:30:59,680
Speaker 7: stopped to think about like how much American manufacturing and

2913
02:30:59,760 --> 02:31:02,920
Speaker 7: con sure, every argument everyone is making about this, there

2914
02:31:03,000 --> 02:31:05,200
Speaker 7: is actually a lot of manufacturing still in the US,

2915
02:31:05,240 --> 02:31:08,080
Speaker 7: but all of it relies on Chinese imports and various

2916
02:31:08,120 --> 02:31:10,880
Speaker 7: stages of in vadio stage of production, and they're fucked.

2917
02:31:11,560 --> 02:31:13,960
Speaker 7: And I haven't even mentioned yet, by the way, the

2918
02:31:15,080 --> 02:31:17,000
Speaker 7: sort of caps to all of this is that China

2919
02:31:17,080 --> 02:31:19,520
Speaker 7: is doing an eighty four percent retaliatory tariff on all

2920
02:31:19,520 --> 02:31:22,320
Speaker 7: American goods, which is going to just fuck massive portions

2921
02:31:22,320 --> 02:31:24,119
Speaker 7: of American agriculture. We've talked a lot on the show

2922
02:31:24,120 --> 02:31:27,879
Speaker 7: about soybean exports. It's going to be absolutely catastrophic. We're

2923
02:31:27,879 --> 02:31:31,440
Speaker 7: going to go more into this on Monday. But you know,

2924
02:31:31,480 --> 02:31:34,240
Speaker 7: the thing that's clear from this is that these people

2925
02:31:34,480 --> 02:31:37,400
Speaker 7: don't see the economy as real in the way that

2926
02:31:37,440 --> 02:31:40,080
Speaker 7: you and I do, right, They simply don't. You know,

2927
02:31:40,240 --> 02:31:42,120
Speaker 7: we look at the economy as something where we have

2928
02:31:42,200 --> 02:31:44,200
Speaker 7: to have a fucking job so we can go to work,

2929
02:31:44,240 --> 02:31:46,520
Speaker 7: so we can come home and fucking buy food for

2930
02:31:46,560 --> 02:31:48,600
Speaker 7: our families and pay our rent. And they think it's

2931
02:31:48,600 --> 02:31:52,119
Speaker 7: a fucking joke, right. They think it's a fucking masculinity signifier,

2932
02:31:52,600 --> 02:31:54,960
Speaker 7: and they think it's like they look at tariff rates

2933
02:31:54,959 --> 02:31:56,200
Speaker 7: and they go, this is just a number on a

2934
02:31:56,280 --> 02:31:58,440
Speaker 7: fucking page. And that's why the tariff rate is now

2935
02:31:58,440 --> 02:32:01,680
Speaker 7: one hundred and twenty five percent China because it doesn't

2936
02:32:01,680 --> 02:32:03,480
Speaker 7: none of this ship is real for them at all.

2937
02:32:04,520 --> 02:32:08,160
Speaker 7: Now do you know what is real? No, the products

2938
02:32:08,160 --> 02:32:25,520
Speaker 7: and services that support this. Yeah, yeah, yep, we are

2939
02:32:25,560 --> 02:32:28,240
Speaker 7: back now. Okay. One of the things that I've been

2940
02:32:28,240 --> 02:32:29,480
Speaker 7: seeing a lot of is there are a lot of

2941
02:32:29,600 --> 02:32:32,039
Speaker 7: arguments about whether there was some kind of plan here.

2942
02:32:32,120 --> 02:32:34,400
Speaker 7: Trump has claimed that he was going to roll back

2943
02:32:34,440 --> 02:32:37,280
Speaker 7: the terrorists all along, and no, he wasn't. Just no,

2944
02:32:37,600 --> 02:32:39,360
Speaker 7: he's just lying. He's just going by the seat of

2945
02:32:39,400 --> 02:32:42,840
Speaker 7: his pants. And I can prove that there is no

2946
02:32:42,959 --> 02:32:45,120
Speaker 7: plan here by moving on to the second thing that

2947
02:32:45,160 --> 02:32:46,880
Speaker 7: I want to talk about here, which is a speech

2948
02:32:46,959 --> 02:32:51,440
Speaker 7: given by Council of Economic Advisors Chairman Steve Myhren at

2949
02:32:51,440 --> 02:32:53,920
Speaker 7: the Hudson Institute. So this is this is again the

2950
02:32:53,920 --> 02:32:58,000
Speaker 7: the the Council of Economic Advisors is is a federal

2951
02:32:58,000 --> 02:33:00,480
Speaker 7: agency that is like their their job is to provide

2952
02:33:00,520 --> 02:33:05,600
Speaker 7: economic advice to the president, right, and their chair gave

2953
02:33:05,640 --> 02:33:08,640
Speaker 7: a speech where he argues and this is something that

2954
02:33:08,720 --> 02:33:12,279
Speaker 7: like I I Jesus fucking Christ, we were talking about, Okay,

2955
02:33:12,920 --> 02:33:15,200
Speaker 7: the fact that every fucking country on earth has us

2956
02:33:15,280 --> 02:33:17,680
Speaker 7: Treasury bonds. We were talking about this earlier, right, the

2957
02:33:17,680 --> 02:33:20,880
Speaker 7: status of the US dollar as the global reserve currency.

2958
02:33:21,240 --> 02:33:24,320
Speaker 7: This guy is arguing that that is actually a public

2959
02:33:24,440 --> 02:33:28,760
Speaker 7: good that other countries should pay US for. He wants

2960
02:33:28,840 --> 02:33:33,440
Speaker 7: to force countries to fucking pay taxes to the United

2961
02:33:33,440 --> 02:33:36,119
Speaker 7: States for holding US Treasury bonds.

2962
02:33:36,640 --> 02:33:39,720
Speaker 2: And again, if any nation on Earth could pay to

2963
02:33:39,840 --> 02:33:43,000
Speaker 2: have their currency be the global reserve currency, there's no

2964
02:33:43,080 --> 02:33:46,560
Speaker 2: amount they wouldn't pay. Like, the degree to which this

2965
02:33:46,640 --> 02:33:49,840
Speaker 2: benefits you is ridiculous, Like the fact that you wantn't

2966
02:33:49,879 --> 02:33:51,440
Speaker 2: to charge other people for it.

2967
02:33:51,440 --> 02:33:52,040
Speaker 9: It's nice.

2968
02:33:52,840 --> 02:33:53,320
Speaker 8: It is like.

2969
02:33:53,680 --> 02:33:58,280
Speaker 7: Look how this like actually works, right, is that every

2970
02:33:58,360 --> 02:34:02,640
Speaker 7: single other country on Earth is forced to buy American debt,

2971
02:34:02,840 --> 02:34:05,520
Speaker 7: which is what a bond is, right, Yeah, And this

2972
02:34:05,600 --> 02:34:08,160
Speaker 7: allows the US to carry out even more spending without

2973
02:34:08,200 --> 02:34:10,080
Speaker 7: inflationary effects every single other country.

2974
02:34:10,400 --> 02:34:13,240
Speaker 2: Everything is based on this, Yes, it's just.

2975
02:34:13,280 --> 02:34:15,440
Speaker 7: It's all forced on on like other countries happen to

2976
02:34:15,440 --> 02:34:19,200
Speaker 7: stockpowle US dollars like the literally the entire global economy.

2977
02:34:19,200 --> 02:34:21,160
Speaker 7: The US is advantage in the entire global econy is

2978
02:34:21,200 --> 02:34:24,279
Speaker 7: that every single other fucking country on Earth needs US dollars.

2979
02:34:24,280 --> 02:34:26,120
Speaker 7: Part of this is to buy oil. And part of

2980
02:34:26,120 --> 02:34:28,640
Speaker 7: this is again because the dollar is the fucking reserve currency.

2981
02:34:28,640 --> 02:34:30,800
Speaker 7: It's the currency the fucking trade is done in. And

2982
02:34:31,000 --> 02:34:34,840
Speaker 7: the asset that you hold is is like, is the

2983
02:34:34,879 --> 02:34:38,000
Speaker 7: fucking US bond. The anthropologist David Graeber called this in

2984
02:34:38,080 --> 02:34:40,480
Speaker 7: his book Debt the First five thousand Years, a tribute

2985
02:34:40,520 --> 02:34:43,440
Speaker 7: system that again, every country in the world is forced

2986
02:34:43,440 --> 02:34:46,000
Speaker 7: to buy US bonds. The US government has just like

2987
02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:48,840
Speaker 7: fairly explicitly, like they did this in the Reagan administration,

2988
02:34:48,920 --> 02:34:50,920
Speaker 7: does this other times, like has just fairly explicitly leaned

2989
02:34:50,959 --> 02:34:52,800
Speaker 7: on countries and been like, you're buying a fucking a

2990
02:34:52,840 --> 02:34:56,879
Speaker 7: fucking bunch of US bonds now, right, Like this is

2991
02:34:57,080 --> 02:34:59,240
Speaker 7: this system. The status of the dollar of the world

2992
02:34:59,280 --> 02:35:05,160
Speaker 7: reserve currency, is the entire lattice that supports and spreads

2993
02:35:05,200 --> 02:35:09,280
Speaker 7: the American Empire. And these fucking clowns want people to

2994
02:35:09,440 --> 02:35:13,720
Speaker 7: pay taxes on the tribute that they are paying to us.

2995
02:35:14,320 --> 02:35:17,720
Speaker 7: This is not by Trump and Elon Musk, right, this

2996
02:35:18,040 --> 02:35:21,000
Speaker 7: is the guy these people brought in to be their

2997
02:35:21,000 --> 02:35:25,680
Speaker 7: economist to do economic policy. Yeah, there there is no

2998
02:35:25,879 --> 02:35:29,440
Speaker 7: limit to their stupidity. There is no rock of sanity

2999
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:32,480
Speaker 7: upon which the tide of madness will crash everything we

3000
02:35:32,560 --> 02:35:35,560
Speaker 7: have seen. We have seen so far is just a

3001
02:35:35,640 --> 02:35:40,680
Speaker 7: prelude to an infinite abyss of stupidity, so mind numbingly incomprehensible,

3002
02:35:40,720 --> 02:35:44,039
Speaker 7: it will shatter our minds like a snowflake and a hurricane.

3003
02:35:44,160 --> 02:35:47,080
Speaker 7: You can no longer think to yourself. They cannot possibly

3004
02:35:47,080 --> 02:35:50,959
Speaker 7: be this stupid. They are thinking thoughts even gods cannot comprehend.

3005
02:35:51,280 --> 02:35:54,840
Speaker 7: They are attempting to drain the sea by shouting at

3006
02:35:54,840 --> 02:35:57,320
Speaker 7: the moon. They are trying to wipe their ass with

3007
02:35:57,480 --> 02:36:00,800
Speaker 7: pine cones. There is no five dimensional pl here. There

3008
02:36:00,840 --> 02:36:03,440
Speaker 7: was not even a man behind the fucking curtain. There

3009
02:36:03,520 --> 02:36:07,000
Speaker 7: was only an infinite sea of cruelty, malicone, stupidity trying

3010
02:36:07,040 --> 02:36:09,160
Speaker 7: to drown us, all for the crime of attempting to

3011
02:36:09,200 --> 02:36:12,000
Speaker 7: exist in the world we were born in. The reality

3012
02:36:12,400 --> 02:36:16,039
Speaker 7: of the man who ruled the American Empire is this.

3013
02:36:16,280 --> 02:36:18,680
Speaker 7: It is so terrifying that everyone from the most powerful

3014
02:36:18,680 --> 02:36:20,879
Speaker 7: CEOs on the planet to the fucking day traders running

3015
02:36:20,879 --> 02:36:23,720
Speaker 7: the stock markets to broke left the ship posters recoil

3016
02:36:23,800 --> 02:36:26,680
Speaker 7: in horror and try to construct meaning and some kind

3017
02:36:26,720 --> 02:36:29,480
Speaker 7: of like anything, any kind of strategy, any kind of

3018
02:36:29,520 --> 02:36:32,680
Speaker 7: strategic reason why anyone could possibly be doing this because

3019
02:36:32,680 --> 02:36:35,680
Speaker 7: the existence of a plant, literally, any plan, no matter

3020
02:36:35,680 --> 02:36:39,000
Speaker 7: how evil it is, is preferable to this, which is

3021
02:36:39,000 --> 02:36:42,440
Speaker 7: that the largest economy in the world, the most powerful

3022
02:36:42,480 --> 02:36:44,960
Speaker 7: empire the world has ever seen, is being run by

3023
02:36:45,000 --> 02:36:48,440
Speaker 7: the dumbest people who have ever fucking lift and they

3024
02:36:48,440 --> 02:36:51,680
Speaker 7: are doing this because they are evil and they're stupid.

3025
02:36:52,160 --> 02:36:57,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there's absolutely like yeah, yeah, no, nothing else

3026
02:36:57,440 --> 02:36:57,760
Speaker 2: to say.

3027
02:36:57,800 --> 02:36:58,119
Speaker 8: Really.

3028
02:36:59,360 --> 02:37:01,560
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that is underpinning this,

3029
02:37:01,640 --> 02:37:04,680
Speaker 3: which you can pick up on if you are cursed

3030
02:37:04,760 --> 02:37:07,440
Speaker 3: enough to listen to enough of these speeches and enough

3031
02:37:07,480 --> 02:37:10,280
Speaker 3: of their of their talking heads and podcasts, is like

3032
02:37:10,320 --> 02:37:14,560
Speaker 3: this reoccurring trend in which these people really need to

3033
02:37:14,600 --> 02:37:16,920
Speaker 3: be victims in order to in order to politically succeed,

3034
02:37:16,959 --> 02:37:19,240
Speaker 3: which is an acuation that's usually thrown against you know,

3035
02:37:19,360 --> 02:37:22,880
Speaker 3: woke sgw's. But like before the election, right, it was

3036
02:37:22,920 --> 02:37:26,760
Speaker 3: this idea that that because because of the dem corrupt

3037
02:37:26,840 --> 02:37:30,400
Speaker 3: elite establishment, you know, everyday Americans are are are victims

3038
02:37:30,440 --> 02:37:33,160
Speaker 3: of this, of this hidden cabal of Democrats that that

3039
02:37:33,200 --> 02:37:36,000
Speaker 3: are ruining everything. But but now that these people are

3040
02:37:36,000 --> 02:37:40,039
Speaker 3: in charge of of of the United States, the people

3041
02:37:40,080 --> 02:37:42,840
Speaker 3: who are victimizing US is just the entire world, right,

3042
02:37:42,920 --> 02:37:45,320
Speaker 3: the entire world is ripping off the United States by

3043
02:37:45,400 --> 02:37:49,440
Speaker 3: using our dollar, by by doing trade with us. They

3044
02:37:49,440 --> 02:37:52,280
Speaker 3: are somehow ripping us off, like we are the victims

3045
02:37:52,560 --> 02:37:56,320
Speaker 3: of this global scheme, and it's hurting you at the

3046
02:37:56,360 --> 02:38:00,000
Speaker 3: average blue collar worker, and it's making women adopt manager

3047
02:38:00,040 --> 02:38:03,160
Speaker 3: surial positions and and this is this is what's actually

3048
02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:08,400
Speaker 3: is the core of of your oppression. And even even

3049
02:38:08,440 --> 02:38:11,680
Speaker 3: even when they win, even when they control the country,

3050
02:38:11,840 --> 02:38:14,560
Speaker 3: they can't let go of this victim status. They have

3051
02:38:14,640 --> 02:38:17,920
Speaker 3: to have someone ripping them off in order to justify

3052
02:38:17,959 --> 02:38:22,160
Speaker 3: them doing just incomprehensible stupid power grabs. And it is

3053
02:38:22,280 --> 02:38:25,840
Speaker 3: very much linked to like this like masculine signifier. It's

3054
02:38:25,959 --> 02:38:28,040
Speaker 3: very odd, like like the way that people are trying

3055
02:38:28,080 --> 02:38:31,000
Speaker 3: to trying to justify losing so much money in the

3056
02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:33,320
Speaker 3: stock market. It's by re posting a clip of some

3057
02:38:33,440 --> 02:38:38,680
Speaker 3: like Australian women from dancing dancing on TikTok in like

3058
02:38:38,760 --> 02:38:42,080
Speaker 3: an office building, and they're like, well, you know, tariffs

3059
02:38:42,320 --> 02:38:45,760
Speaker 3: are are are much better than having to deal with

3060
02:38:45,920 --> 02:38:47,279
Speaker 3: women in the office.

3061
02:38:47,040 --> 02:38:47,280
Speaker 7: Am I?

3062
02:38:47,360 --> 02:38:47,680
Speaker 12: Right now?

3063
02:38:47,920 --> 02:38:48,760
Speaker 9: Women having a joke?

3064
02:38:49,240 --> 02:38:50,760
Speaker 3: This is this is this is how they this is

3065
02:38:50,760 --> 02:38:51,600
Speaker 3: how they justify it.

3066
02:38:51,920 --> 02:38:54,680
Speaker 2: At least we don't have woke. It's worth it to

3067
02:38:54,760 --> 02:38:57,680
Speaker 2: not be able to afford food. If the is the

3068
02:38:57,680 --> 02:39:01,880
Speaker 2: global loghouse, that's a deep cut. The long House is

3069
02:39:01,920 --> 02:39:05,800
Speaker 2: burnt down. Sure, because the Long House is burnt down,

3070
02:39:05,840 --> 02:39:08,320
Speaker 2: We're now exposed to the elements and all of our

3071
02:39:08,360 --> 02:39:11,840
Speaker 2: food stores are gone, and it's about to snow eighteen feet.

3072
02:39:12,280 --> 02:39:14,160
Speaker 2: But at least the Long House.

3073
02:39:13,959 --> 02:39:17,920
Speaker 13: The Long House with the nephew in it that you

3074
02:39:18,040 --> 02:39:20,200
Speaker 13: hate and owned you at Thanksgiving, it's gone.

3075
02:39:20,240 --> 02:39:21,600
Speaker 3: Shout out to your nephew.

3076
02:39:21,840 --> 02:39:24,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, I guess what's what's the nibbling? Nibbling? It's a

3077
02:39:24,200 --> 02:39:26,000
Speaker 9: correct non binary appollition.

3078
02:39:26,320 --> 02:39:30,240
Speaker 3: In other news, last week, President Trump said that he

3079
02:39:30,240 --> 02:39:32,960
Speaker 3: would be quote unquote honored for the president of l

3080
02:39:33,000 --> 02:39:38,000
Speaker 3: Salvador to take US citizens, which he calls American grown

3081
02:39:38,240 --> 02:39:42,480
Speaker 3: and born criminals, and put them into Seacott, the Terrorism

3082
02:39:42,480 --> 02:39:46,039
Speaker 3: Confinement Center, which is essentially a prison work camp.

3083
02:39:46,160 --> 02:39:47,840
Speaker 2: Yep, that no one gets released from.

3084
02:39:47,920 --> 02:39:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Trump said, quote why should it stop just at

3085
02:39:51,240 --> 02:39:54,359
Speaker 3: people that crossed the border illegally on quotes.

3086
02:39:55,000 --> 02:39:56,480
Speaker 9: But it shouldn't stop that.

3087
02:39:57,720 --> 02:40:00,000
Speaker 3: She shouldn't be there at all. And his dams already mentioned,

3088
02:40:00,120 --> 02:40:01,920
Speaker 3: seventy five percent of the immigrants sent to see Caught

3089
02:40:02,000 --> 02:40:05,400
Speaker 3: don't have a criminal conviction. These people are not criminals. Now,

3090
02:40:05,560 --> 02:40:08,520
Speaker 3: a few days later, the White House presecretary reiterated that

3091
02:40:08,600 --> 02:40:11,600
Speaker 3: this is something that Trump is seriously discussing, both publicly

3092
02:40:11,680 --> 02:40:12,520
Speaker 3: and privately.

3093
02:40:13,040 --> 02:40:15,720
Speaker 14: So the President has discussed this idea quite a few

3094
02:40:15,720 --> 02:40:19,480
Speaker 14: times publicly. He's also discussed it privately. You're referring to

3095
02:40:19,520 --> 02:40:24,760
Speaker 14: the President's idea for American citizens to potentially be deported.

3096
02:40:24,800 --> 02:40:28,600
Speaker 14: These would be heinous, violent criminals who have broken our

3097
02:40:28,720 --> 02:40:33,080
Speaker 14: nation's laws repeatedly, and these are violent repeat offenders in

3098
02:40:33,120 --> 02:40:36,760
Speaker 14: American streets. The President has said if it's legal right,

3099
02:40:37,080 --> 02:40:39,000
Speaker 14: if there is a legal pathway to do that, he's

3100
02:40:39,040 --> 02:40:40,760
Speaker 14: not sure. We are not sure if there is. It's

3101
02:40:40,760 --> 02:40:43,359
Speaker 14: an idea that he has simply floated and has discussed

3102
02:40:43,760 --> 02:40:46,199
Speaker 14: very publicly, as in the effort of transparency.

3103
02:40:46,560 --> 02:40:48,320
Speaker 3: Now, one of the last things we're going to discuss

3104
02:40:48,480 --> 02:40:53,480
Speaker 3: is an update on DHS and ICE efforts to deport

3105
02:40:53,840 --> 02:40:57,480
Speaker 3: students across the country. Me and James did an episode

3106
02:40:57,560 --> 02:41:00,320
Speaker 3: last week which is still pretty relevant, but all of

3107
02:41:00,320 --> 02:41:04,320
Speaker 3: the numbers have increased dramatically since that episode. As of

3108
02:41:04,320 --> 02:41:07,720
Speaker 3: Tuesday night, April eighth, ninety two student visas have been

3109
02:41:07,720 --> 02:41:12,560
Speaker 3: revoked at California universities, fifty at uc campuses and thirty

3110
02:41:12,600 --> 02:41:17,199
Speaker 3: six at California State University campuses, with six more at Stanford. Also,

3111
02:41:17,360 --> 02:41:19,720
Speaker 3: as of April eighth, fifty student visas have been revoked

3112
02:41:19,760 --> 02:41:23,760
Speaker 3: at Arizona State University, with multiple students now in iced attention.

3113
02:41:24,320 --> 02:41:27,039
Speaker 3: Lawyers for these students believe that upwards of one thousand

3114
02:41:27,120 --> 02:41:31,080
Speaker 3: visas have been revoked across the country. A map on

3115
02:41:31,360 --> 02:41:35,199
Speaker 3: inside higher ed dot com shows four hundred and nineteen

3116
02:41:35,400 --> 02:41:38,840
Speaker 3: confirmed instances of student visas or in some cases, green cards,

3117
02:41:38,920 --> 02:41:42,040
Speaker 3: being revoked by Secretary of State Mark Rubio across thirty

3118
02:41:42,080 --> 02:41:46,080
Speaker 3: four states, and as of Wednesday, April ninth, visas for

3119
02:41:46,200 --> 02:41:49,480
Speaker 3: eighteen international students have been revoked at the University of Utah,

3120
02:41:49,640 --> 02:41:52,280
Speaker 3: with these students and recent graduates received letters from the

3121
02:41:52,280 --> 02:41:56,359
Speaker 3: Trump administration instructing them to quote unquote self deport immediately.

3122
02:41:57,160 --> 02:41:59,800
Speaker 3: At Utah State University, more than thirty students have been

3123
02:41:59,840 --> 02:42:02,400
Speaker 3: in pacted, according to the university administration.

3124
02:42:02,920 --> 02:42:05,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm aware of at least one UCSD student who

3125
02:42:05,720 --> 02:42:08,840
Speaker 13: was detained at the border and immediately deported. I'm also

3126
02:42:08,959 --> 02:42:12,120
Speaker 13: where that UCOP uc officer, the president right had a

3127
02:42:12,160 --> 02:42:15,840
Speaker 13: statement about the impact of service terminations across its campuses.

3128
02:42:16,360 --> 02:42:19,960
Speaker 13: But the UCSD Guardian, in a dub for student Journalism,

3129
02:42:20,040 --> 02:42:25,080
Speaker 13: reported that UCSD convened an emergency meeting before this of

3130
02:42:25,160 --> 02:42:29,160
Speaker 13: faculty and it knew about the revocations or that the

3131
02:42:29,240 --> 02:42:33,200
Speaker 13: service changes, right, they were a vocation of their student status,

3132
02:42:34,000 --> 02:42:37,000
Speaker 13: and it was reluctant to act because it hadn't received

3133
02:42:37,080 --> 02:42:39,840
Speaker 13: guidance from UCOP yet. So we're seeing this from a

3134
02:42:39,840 --> 02:42:43,640
Speaker 13: lot of university administrations, right, they don't know how to respond.

3135
02:42:43,720 --> 02:42:46,320
Speaker 13: I did see that the University of Arizona was helping

3136
02:42:46,360 --> 02:42:49,360
Speaker 13: fund some of the legal fees of their students, which

3137
02:42:49,400 --> 02:42:52,200
Speaker 13: is more than many universities are doing as of now.

3138
02:42:52,200 --> 02:42:54,080
Speaker 13: There seems to be no pattern of prior rest for

3139
02:42:54,120 --> 02:42:57,039
Speaker 13: the people who have had their status has changed, but

3140
02:42:57,360 --> 02:43:01,439
Speaker 13: in some cases it seems that in so university systems,

3141
02:43:01,520 --> 02:43:03,680
Speaker 13: all of the people who have lost their status are

3142
02:43:03,720 --> 02:43:06,720
Speaker 13: either Chinese, Indian, or from majority Muslim countries.

3143
02:43:07,760 --> 02:43:09,840
Speaker 7: One other thing I wanted to close out this episode on,

3144
02:43:10,240 --> 02:43:12,760
Speaker 7: so we have an episode out about this already, but

3145
02:43:13,800 --> 02:43:15,320
Speaker 7: one of the things that ICE has been doing has

3146
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:19,039
Speaker 7: been targeting migrant farm work at labor organizers. They have

3147
02:43:20,879 --> 02:43:24,240
Speaker 7: basically just kidnapped, like just straight up broke this guy's

3148
02:43:24,280 --> 02:43:27,440
Speaker 7: window in his car and dragged him out. A guy

3149
02:43:27,480 --> 02:43:30,640
Speaker 7: named Alfredo Quarez is known as Lalo. He is an

3150
02:43:30,720 --> 02:43:37,400
Speaker 7: organizer for Familias You need Uslegisticia in Washington, and there

3151
02:43:37,480 --> 02:43:39,600
Speaker 7: is going to be a protest. This will be Saturday,

3152
02:43:39,680 --> 02:43:41,600
Speaker 7: the twelfth. That'll be tomorrow as you're listening to this,

3153
02:43:41,680 --> 02:43:45,560
Speaker 7: on Friday at Portland City Hall at two pm. Organizers

3154
02:43:45,600 --> 02:43:48,360
Speaker 7: are also asking that you call the Washington Attorney General

3155
02:43:48,400 --> 02:43:54,840
Speaker 7: to demand pressure be put on everyone to release him. Yeah,

3156
02:43:55,000 --> 02:43:57,200
Speaker 7: if you want to hear more about that, there is

3157
02:43:57,360 --> 02:44:01,320
Speaker 7: I have an interview with an organizer works with them,

3158
02:44:01,720 --> 02:44:06,800
Speaker 7: and yeah, it's real fucking bad. The scale of the

3159
02:44:06,879 --> 02:44:10,000
Speaker 7: repression has been increasing. It's not undefeatable. And this is,

3160
02:44:10,200 --> 02:44:13,400
Speaker 7: you know, is a this is a tangible thing that

3161
02:44:13,440 --> 02:44:17,280
Speaker 7: you can do to try to stop them. But yeah,

3162
02:44:17,320 --> 02:44:21,640
Speaker 7: it requires movement now, and yeah, do this now before

3163
02:44:21,680 --> 02:44:22,320
Speaker 7: it gets worse.

3164
02:44:24,360 --> 02:44:27,160
Speaker 3: To update another topic of the episode me and James

3165
02:44:27,200 --> 02:44:30,840
Speaker 3: did last week, we mentioned that DHS was seeking input

3166
02:44:31,200 --> 02:44:34,959
Speaker 3: for installing a new program to screen the social media

3167
02:44:35,000 --> 02:44:39,320
Speaker 3: activity of people applying for immigration benefits for what they

3168
02:44:39,400 --> 02:44:44,080
Speaker 3: label as anti semitism, and this policy is now in effect.

3169
02:44:44,640 --> 02:44:48,520
Speaker 3: This applies to quote unquote, aliens applying for lawful permanent

3170
02:44:48,560 --> 02:44:53,240
Speaker 3: resident status, foreign students, and aliens affiliated with educational institutions,

3171
02:44:54,080 --> 02:44:59,080
Speaker 3: possibly also people applying for citizenship. To quote the DHS

3172
02:44:59,080 --> 02:45:03,000
Speaker 3: Assistant Secretary of Public Affairs, Trisha McLaughlin, quote, there's no

3173
02:45:03,080 --> 02:45:04,879
Speaker 3: room in the United States so for the rest of

3174
02:45:04,879 --> 02:45:07,680
Speaker 3: the world's terrorist sympathizers, and we are under an obligation

3175
02:45:07,800 --> 02:45:12,039
Speaker 3: to admit them or let them stay here. Secretary Nome

3176
02:45:12,040 --> 02:45:13,640
Speaker 3: has made it clear that anyone who thinks they can

3177
02:45:13,680 --> 02:45:16,400
Speaker 3: come to America and hide behind the First Amendment to

3178
02:45:16,440 --> 02:45:19,840
Speaker 3: advocate for anti Semitic violence and terrorism, think again. You

3179
02:45:19,920 --> 02:45:23,119
Speaker 3: are not welcome here. Unquote. The web page for this

3180
02:45:23,200 --> 02:45:27,560
Speaker 3: new policy states, under this guidance, USCIS will consider social

3181
02:45:27,600 --> 02:45:32,120
Speaker 3: media content that indicates an alien endorsing, espousing, promoting, or

3182
02:45:32,160 --> 02:45:36,240
Speaker 3: supporting anti Semitic terrorism, anti Semitic terrorist organizations, or other

3183
02:45:36,320 --> 02:45:40,240
Speaker 3: antisemitic activity as a negative factor in any discretionary analysis

3184
02:45:40,280 --> 02:45:45,240
Speaker 3: when adjudicating immigration benefit requests. So essentially, this means that

3185
02:45:45,280 --> 02:45:48,600
Speaker 3: if you've posted anything that is in support of Palestine

3186
02:45:48,680 --> 02:45:51,960
Speaker 3: or criticizes the Israeli government. This will be now used

3187
02:45:52,000 --> 02:45:55,000
Speaker 3: against you if you are applying for visa, if you

3188
02:45:55,000 --> 02:45:57,280
Speaker 3: are applying for a green card, if you're applying for

3189
02:45:57,320 --> 02:45:59,760
Speaker 3: citizenship and already live in this country as a permanent

3190
02:45:59,800 --> 02:46:06,160
Speaker 3: read lawfully, So just a wider net of social media surveillance.

3191
02:46:06,400 --> 02:46:08,760
Speaker 3: Four h four Media put out a good article on

3192
02:46:09,120 --> 02:46:13,840
Speaker 3: Wednesday about a palanteer system that ICE is using to

3193
02:46:14,360 --> 02:46:17,120
Speaker 3: look for immigrants and people in this country, which allows

3194
02:46:17,160 --> 02:46:20,320
Speaker 3: them to select for specific attributes with a pretty intense

3195
02:46:20,360 --> 02:46:23,800
Speaker 3: filtering system. So yeah, this is ongoing and we will

3196
02:46:23,800 --> 02:46:25,199
Speaker 3: continue to report as such.

3197
02:46:25,720 --> 02:46:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, everybody, Well until next week, Please don't

3198
02:46:30,480 --> 02:46:33,160
Speaker 2: go to an El Salvador in prison camp if you

3199
02:46:33,160 --> 02:46:33,800
Speaker 2: can avoid it.

3200
02:46:34,400 --> 02:46:35,560
Speaker 10: We reported the news.

3201
02:46:35,959 --> 02:46:40,640
Speaker 8: It is great, We reported the news.

3202
02:46:45,400 --> 02:46:48,600
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3203
02:46:48,640 --> 02:46:50,560
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3204
02:46:51,160 --> 02:46:51,760
Speaker 9: It could happen.

3205
02:46:51,800 --> 02:46:54,200
Speaker 16: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

3206
02:46:54,240 --> 02:46:58,440
Speaker 16: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com,

3207
02:46:58,640 --> 02:47:01,720
Speaker 16: or check us out on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3208
02:47:01,840 --> 02:47:04,640
Speaker 16: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find

3209
02:47:04,680 --> 02:47:07,720
Speaker 16: sources for it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions.

3210
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:08,879
Speaker 16: Thanks for listening,