WEBVTT - The UK’s Climate Crown Slips 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.040 Central to all our efforts is honoring our promises on 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.040 climate finance. I know that for many finances are tough 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.200 right now. The pandemic all but broke the global economy, 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.480 and before coming here today, I spent last week working 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:19.680 on the difficult decisions needed to ensure confidence and economic 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:23.240 stability in my own country. But I can tell you 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:28.120 today that the United Kingdom is delivering on our commitment 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:32.800 of eleven point six billion pounds and as part of this, 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.720 we will now triple our funding on adaptation to one 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:49.840 point five billion pounds. By Richie soon At, once again 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.840 promising to stick to delivering billions of pounds to tackle 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.520 climate change. He was speaking at the CUP twenty seven 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:57.960 conference here in Egypt on Monday. Of course, it was 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.680 not long ago that the Prime Minister was not planning 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:07.319 on attending the annual summit at all. I'm Francine lack One. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.160 This is in the City in the Desert to Bloomberg's 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.720 podcast connecting you to the stories and the voices at 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.680 the heart of the city of London. This week I'm 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.840 in Charmel Shaik for the COP twenty seven summit, considering 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.000 the question how committed to the green agenda is Richie 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.160 Sunak and how concerned is a city? With where he 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.280 stands with me? Bloomberg contributing editor and author of the 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.640 read Out newsletter, But you have to read because it's 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.680 always very funny at like restaurants and it was also 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.560 the UK's government spokesperson for COP twenty six and November one, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.280 and is a co founder of zero is M, a 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.080 zero consultancy, and Bloomberg Green's senior reporter and host of 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.200 Bloomberg podcast Zero ac chat Ratti. Thank you both for 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:50.720 joining me, Thanks for having us. We're just starting. We're like, 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:56.440 what day three and we're surviving right the UK same 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:59.520 but you know it's supposed to be two weeks and 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:01.960 we've got to pace ourselves. We do. We do have 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.200 to pace ourselves. REREGI SOONEG rebuilding the green agenda? Is 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.240 he here? There was a U turn. He wasn't going 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.000 to show up. Now he showed up. He pledged some 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.000 things and saying morally he can't back down. Yeah. I 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.400 think that the language of the Prime in the new 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.160 Prime Minister yesterday in his speech to Cope was very 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.399 very similar to language that Boris Johnson used a year ago. 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:30.000 There wasn't. There wasn't really very much difference. Um, yes, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.400 he wasn't coming. Then he was coming, which I think 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:34.960 I'm told explains why he had quite a late slot. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:41.280 My sense is that he got into office and he 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:43.720 was focused on the Autumn Statement, which is what is 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.560 it now ten days away and um, he felt that 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.000 he had to give that his all and then you 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.519 know there was a backlash. Um, the UK is the 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.600 president of COP twenty. Actually not anymore, but it was 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.040 at that point and it was until the first day 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.640 of COP seven and it is right and fitting that 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.360 the Prime Minister found time to come. I mean it 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.000 was pretty awkward, right, It's Monday, the Prime Minister and 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.880 you limited UK prime minister shows up and you have 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:16.720 Boris Johnson that actually speaks ahead of him. You know, awkward. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:22.880 Um different Um, Look for countries around the world that 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.600 we're wondering about the UK's commitment, you can make the 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:30.640 case having double minister, former prime minister and current Prime 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.639 minister that started CUP and the prime minister that ends 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.640 it is a good thing. You certainly can't doubt UK 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:44.080 um dedication and intellectual commitment to the issue on numbers alone. UM, 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.839 I think actually, oddly for me, I worked for both men, 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.400 but I worked for Boris Johnson at COP twenty six. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.200 I thought that the former PM was a bit gloomier. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.640 It's incredible to think how much has changed since that 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.560 last COP, and to be frank, how much damage has 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:04.160 been done in just one year to our great common 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.880 purpose of tackling man made climate change. I mean, people 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.800 said it was boosterism, but I thought it was not 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.760 boot Boris boosterism. He was saying the spirit of Glasgow 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.960 is in danger of of did he say dying or 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:20.720 some something similarly catastrophic. I don't think you can say that. Yeah, 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.960 I mean, and yourself will have will have views on this, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.960 but I think that actually the main theme so far 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.720 of this CARP has been we had some good commitments 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.720 tolve months ago, let's push him forward. I mean, I 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.000 love what you wrote actually, which has showed me the money. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.119 So it's seen maybe as a bit crass, but actually 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:39.120 it's not, because we're here to talk about financing and 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.960 that's how you get stuff done. Absolutely, and yes, there 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:44.920 were new commitments that were made by issues and A 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:49.799 specifically on protection of forests, and there was sum attached 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.719 to it. Ninety million and sixty five million pounds, but 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.039 the total amount that the UK is committing to climate 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.880 finance over the next five years hasn't changed. That's eleven 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.240 point six billion. This new money for protection of forests 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.960 is just coming from the same pot, and so we're 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.800 expecting more at this time when the UK government is 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.719 going into a mini budget where it has to find 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:19.280 ways to cut as much of its spending as possible. 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.200 The fact that they haven't cut climate is a positive sign. 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.920 But we are here at CORPS where the entire demand 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:36.159 from developing countries is you made promises that you haven't 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:40.280 been able to meet yet. So yes, it's a difficult 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:44.839 time for developed countries and for developing countries, but you 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.600 have to show more money. I think actually that's right. 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.279 I mean, what I think is coming across loud and 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.719 clear from this CORP is that the magnitude of the 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.760 money needed by the developing world is just in another 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.520 galaxy towards on the table at the moment. And you know, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.200 you just up then about millions. You know, it's not enough. 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.000 Billions isn't enough. And I think that that's one of 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.200 the political crunches of the next five to ten years 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:14.719 is the rich world the richer world figuring out what 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.440 the mechanism is going to be because at the moment, 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.400 the sums that developing world is talking about needing, they're 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.920 just it's not it's not on the table at the moment. 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.520 And you have to flip this around because the framework 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:28.960 isn't to say we're just going to keep needing more 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:30.960 and more and more money. In fact, if you do 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.120 put more money now, you will need less money in 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.560 the future. Yes, that feels like a really good thing 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:38.560 to pull off at a time where everybody is worried 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.599 about a crisis. But it just fundamentally is true. But 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.560 we're not worried about Chris. We're living through a crisis, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.159 right if you look at the last twelve months, and 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.640 I think Boris Johnson made this point. We can't really 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.839 afford his words are not mine as a UK to 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.520 give more. As Akhat says, you've got the ultimate statement 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.080 in ten days, maybe maybe less have lost track um 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:00.359 And I think it is a good thing that that 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.520 that climate International Climate Finance eleven point six billion, it 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.159 continues to be ring fenced at a time when lots 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.560 of hard choices will have been made in the treasury 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.160 right now as we speak. So it is a good thing, 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:16.000 but it's the still the magnitude is not near to 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.240 what they to, to what developing nations will need. And 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.800 this debate about loss and damage, which Boris Johnson addressed 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.640 head on. The best way to fix this is not 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.440 to look backwards and to try to top up some 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.680 bill for loss and damage that the UK or other 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:33.560 countries have done, but try to try to look at 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.840 what the UK can do to help to take countries 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.720 forward and to give them help them to achieve the 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.960 carbon reductions and the green technology that they need. He 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.280 was uncomfortable about it at copy because he thinks that 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.320 there will be a limit to to what will be possible. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.360 I think therefore, in that context, what is increasingly interesting 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.320 are the different mechanisms. The highest profile person to push 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.360 them is obviously me and my talking about a couple 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.240 of options. One is winful tax arl and gas A. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.160 Now there is special drawing rights at the i m F. 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.840 There will be a spectrum of these ideas that will 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.840 come out in the next few years. So is it 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.920 too soon to know to say whether the UK's climate 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.760 crown is slipping. Let's start with the basic fact that 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.520 UK has cut the most emissions among G seven countries 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.960 since n That did put UK in a leadership position 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.120 going into copy and there were some lucky circumstances that 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.720 made it happen. There was some serious policies that made 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.920 it happen, and the UK did lead on creating a law, 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.080 the Climate Change Act, which has been copied by countries. 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.760 But it is also accurate that that Crown is certainly slipping. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.200 This year the amount of renewable investment going into the 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.839 UK has fallen ninety percent, and that's at the same 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.120 time when Boris Johnson committed to a higher renewable target 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.000 into the thirty, committed to reaching net zero on the 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:09.480 electric grid by committed to electrifying transport which will consume 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.360 more electricity um and so the signs aren't good. The 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.600 Climate Change Committee has said that UK's next carbon budget, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.840 which are coming up starting three, the UK is not 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.960 on track and so that Crown is certainly slipping and 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.400 Richie soon if he stays in office longer than his 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.040 predecessor did, we'll certainly will have to deal with that. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:35.240 I mean, that was what forty days, so let's was 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:41.640 the last days UM. But what's also interesting the guidelines 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.120 on disclosures for firms and their climate risk. And that 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.400 was something that we seeing as chancellor at CUP twenty 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.200 six last year, UM did and that would be the 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.720 first country to bring in this kind of rules. And 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.000 I think that they're publishing at the moment consultation and 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.880 then in the spring will get some detail. So I mean, 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.679 actually it's very knowledgeable about this, and I read this 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.360 stuff and I love this stuff, so I differ. But 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.120 I also think that in many ways, the plumbing and 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.840 the piping on the mechanisms that are going to lower 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.440 our carbon emissions over the next ten years are just 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:19.720 being hammered out UM, particularly the disclosure piece that Rishie 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:25.000 launched last year. UM. That will make companies have to say, right, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.200 this is where our risk is, this is where exposure 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.320 to climate is, and therefore this is how we're going 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.240 to change how we're invested or whatever. So I think 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.000 we are all of us, you know, sort of watching 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.320 as these things evolve and develop. So actually, how do 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.040 private and public actually work together? Well, the clearest way 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:46.000 is really near zero, right UM. Until twenty eighteen, we 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.120 did not have net zero by a target. Then country 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.000 started adopting it. As soon as country started adopting it, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.400 corporations started adopting it. And when corporations adopted and they're 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.960 held to account by journalists and by their shareholders there, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.840 they have to put in the money to make that happen. 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.120 And so that's the very clear line through point that 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.360 you can see where the transition has begun. But we're 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.640 going to have to do a lot more to enable 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.880 public sector money to help the private sector move along. 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.360 So there's a lot of conversation happening around blended finance. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.640 This is a term. We're developing countries which are struggling 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.680 with a strong dollar, struggling with debt payments, but are 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.040 also the places where renewable energy is the cheapest, do 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.400 not have the financial capacity to build them. So you 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.840 bring in blended finance, You bring in money from governments 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.280 and philanthropies that take some of the risk away and 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.520 allow private players to provide most of that capital for 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:43.360 those projects. What does this all mean for the City 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.200 of London. So we had a conversation with Mark Karney 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:47.520 and I'm saying, is you know the City of London 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.920 still the green one of the green finance capitals of 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.320 the world. He said, of course it is. London's been 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.920 out ahead and you know the then chance are now 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.839 Prime Minister Richie soon Act said a year ago We're 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.839 going to make London the world first netzero financial center. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.079 That's smart, that's good business and honestly good for the planet. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.640 But actually we don't really know where this current government 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.680 stands on making the city of London priority. What will 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.840 they do with regulation to attract some of you know, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:16.840 maybe the last revenue that they've had the last two 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:21.240 years UM on this. I think that actually I'm waiting 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.360 to see more what the actual banks do. So I 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.480 think that a lot of the policy architecture has been 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.360 put in place, and we're now as we're talking about 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.000 earlier with disclosure on climate risk. So we need to 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.320 be seeing how some of these big financial institutions are 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:41.000 starting to um not necessarily divest by the way, but 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.160 are starting to deal with with the with the riskier 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.680 climate parts of their portfolio. So I think that I'm 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.160 I'm interested. This is what we mean by implementation, cop like, 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.640 I think it's one of the many facets where it's 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.120 it is the phrase of the conference, show show us 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.320 the money right. It's you hear it a lot on 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.000 a number of different levels. It says we've discussed developing 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.040 countries needing the hundred billions, then part of that hundred 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.880 billion more of it going to adaptation. Then on top 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.520 of that some going to lost and damage and so on. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.640 So there's that show us the money, but there's also 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.000 show us the money in terms of in order to 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.600 get to these magnitudes that we were talking about earlier, 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.360 not the millions, not really the billions, but the trillions, 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.320 we are going to be needing private investments to be 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.719 leveraged in. And this is what actually talks about with 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.640 blended finance. I would also say from a private sector 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:38.400 of financial transfer from private finance, the whole notion around 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.560 e s G or environmental social governance is mostly a 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.080 hisze right now, because there are people coming up with 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.199 their own rules, their own metrics, own ways of trying 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.280 to move the money in the right place. But because 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.520 of lack of clarity, it's unclear if that money is 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.040 actually moving and so rules need to come in place. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.840 And that's where if the a deal of London is 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.280 serious about becoming the green financial capital of the world, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.000 are one of them. It needs to play alongside government 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.160 to figure out rules that will allow private finance to 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.280 understand where that money needs to go very clearly. It's 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:16.920 I mean, the way I've been looking at it recently 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.360 is I think that you and our listeners will have 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.960 noticed that in the States there have been banks that 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:27.480 have wobbled on this commitment to dealing with climate risk, 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:32.120 and in response, chief fans, this is the Glasgow Financial 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:37.560 net zero Alliance zero. Sorry I'm tired, um, they have 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.120 had to pull their horns in. But equally, there's some 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.880 evidence that European banks are really going for it. I'm 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.600 really dealing with climate risk, um, and we could you know, 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.800 there's some that I'm thinking of in particular, but that 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.680 they are really grasping it. So I think there is 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.760 a debate. You're right, there is a debate about whether 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.320 the City of London will over the next five to 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.800 ten years keep that crown of being the green finance. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.160 I mean, if you're talking competition here, actually the City 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.520 of London has a good chance. Now, well, we don't 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.440 know what the midterms are going to do to the US, 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.040 but we do know that Republican states are trying to 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.400 question e s G and that's causing these wobbles in 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.440 American banks. But if City of London provides clarity, in 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.600 the UK, all political parties are clear on what they 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.840 want to do and net zero. In America it's a 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:29.040 divided government. It's forcing their regulator, the SEC, to rethink 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.680 whether the clear E s G rules that it had 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.239 put out will come through because it's worried about lawsuits. 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.760 The City of London doesn't have to worry about all that. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.680 When you look at g fans and Mark Arney was 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.800 saying that from four fifty members in Glasgow they went 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.120 to five fifty. The question is do you need very 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:52.560 aggressive frameworks and regulation but risk losing members just to 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.640 hit that target, or do you rather have a broad 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.640 church with weaker targets. I think he's gone for the last, right, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.560 I mean, that's what there was. There was talk in 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.640 September that raised to zero, which is the u N 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:11.160 kind of mirror to g fans, was gonna be penalizing 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.520 of banks, right, And there were a couple of institutions 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.240 that said, right, well, this is too tough for us. 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.720 We're off and I think for all of us. We 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.680 were watching that debate and thinking, gosh, is this the 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.960 beginning of a stampede away because of the different political 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.520 and economic context? Is this you know this was too 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.480 good to be true twelve months ago? Now this is 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.920 the rubberts sitting the road and people that are going 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.840 to leave. Actually, in the end, I think they stabilized 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.360 it and they kept it to a few more banks 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.640 then went public with worries, but they were kept in 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.760 the team. And so I think he's made the latter 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.040 of your two choices. He's made that choice that he 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.800 wants to keep it intact to keep everybody trying to 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.280 work this out together. And that makes sense. I mean, 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.200 if everybody works together, even with less aggressive targets, is 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.600 it easier to then reach our goals and five, ten 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:04.320 fifty years. I think Carney and Givans in general probably 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.159 are forced to do that because the rules around the 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.040 s G aren't that clear. If governments were to provide 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:15.359 more clarity, then private sector will follow suit. Um right now, 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.960 because so many of the commitments are voluntary commitments, where 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.720 do you draw the boundaries are voluntarily decided, and if 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.160 you don't like them, you can walk out of a group. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.040 If government set regulations and clear rules, then they can't 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.120 do it so easily. You know, we we see banks 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.840 as um as you know, all doing the same thing, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.800 but actually a lot of banks are doing different things 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.040 right now. Western Lloyd's have a different portfolio with different 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.160 carbon emissions from a Barclays and HSPC with a different 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.359 geographical footprints. So I can completely see why this is 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.920 a really complex issue to try and corral. If you're 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.719 Mark Coni, what's the one question that regulators now need 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.720 to think of? So as we try and hit the targets, 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.480 do you have to get finance people behind you by 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.119 just looking at the economics or does this have to 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.120 be a belief of people wanting to save the planet. 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:16.160 I think belief is one that you could have pulled 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.040 off before Paris. You could be like, yes, we should believe, 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.560 but now we actually have legally binding targets in law. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:28.440 They might be years out, decades out. Um. I think 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.359 it's more about making sure that the rules will allow 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.959 the private sector to go in that direction. But economically 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:37.840 does it make sense? So if you invest in the 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.159 s G and I know there's so many questions about transparency, 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.040 does it just make wise financial sense to invest in 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.800 this space? That's being the case from the very beginning. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.119 There's a clear hierarchy for how to think about money 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:54.920 spent on climate action. Three steps. The first is to avoid, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.840 which is to reduce emission so that warming doesn't happen. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.119 The second step is to minimize if varming is happening, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:06.080 adapt by building sea walls, by building cooling spaces so 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:07.959 that you can deal with the heat waves. And the 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.359 third step is if you don't do either of those, 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.240 there will be lost and damage and you're going to 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.199 have to pay for it, and it gets more expensive 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.480 every step. So the economic case has actually been there 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.600 for all this time. It's just that that economic case 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.400 is over decades, not over the quarter by quarter reports 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.480 that companies have to put up. I mean, and to 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.960 end you, I mean these are not small easy subjects, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:32.879 but I mean increasingly I think people think you need 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.400 a carbon price, So I'm sorry, let's have it already. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:41.480 Where where is the price? In in the UK and Europe? 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.280 There is one right cabin trade is a carbon price? 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:51.920 You know the UK number? What's that magic number? I 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:57.000 think seven. I think what political sciences have figured out 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.159 is like trying to force people to accept carbon pricing 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.520 It's much harder than the plain economic case that if 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.280 you have a carbon price will automatically move to a 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.480 cleaner world. The politics is hard, right. If you go 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.800 to the gas bump and you're paying really high process 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.359 for your petrol and diesel, then you are going to 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:21.280 blame the carbon price, not all the other macroeconomic factors 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.440 that are causing that to happen. For all the social 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.600 media haters, I keep on saying, this is a jolly. 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.919 Why are you roll in Egypt and charm? First of all, 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.600 the conditions are are not the easiest to deal with. 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:34.399 I mean, we have some really pretty robust drivers of 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.119 buggies getting us from It's like driving electric Lewis the 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:43.720 electric buggies like Lewis Ham. I mean they scare me 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:45.560 when when I try and write an email and they 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:47.560 go really fast. That each of the place you need 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.720 to be Actually, can we once and for all maybe 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.080 try and agree that that even if there's not going 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.480 to be a big headline number, these are important because 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.720 bringing people together at all levels as a state but 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.920 also NGO's could give us a better chance of hitting 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.159 our targets. Well, we had Lewis, you who is the 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.960 U n Patron of Oceans on the podcast on Zero 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.600 and he said this thing, which you know, clears up 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.359 why COP meetings have to happen. He said, sometimes you 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:20.880 just have to look people in the eyes to agree 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.240 on a difficult thing. You can have as many zoom 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.680 meetings as you want, and there is an important role 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.600 for zoom meetings and virtual meetings, but when it comes 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.199 to these crucial things where you need to bridge the 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:39.160 gap with diplomacy, you actually need to look the people 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.160 straight in the eyes, and COP meetings have made that possible. 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.159 Year over year, not enough and the progress has to 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.120 happen a lot faster going forward. But that is why 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.960 meeting in person is so important. Yes, it's attached with 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.360 coming footprint when you travel all this while, but it 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.359 makes the work much much easier than if it was 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.280 just virtual. There's some really moving stories. Some people came 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.000 up to me from South Korea and they said, it 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.000 took us twenty hours to get here. You know, they 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:07.880 really wanted to come and they've you know, and they 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:09.880 had a lot of things they wanted to know how 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.159 it was being done in the UK UM. So for 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.840 a lot of people it matters hugely. Well, there is 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.880 also we had the president of Mozambique this morning who said, 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.960 for the price that I've paid for my delegation to 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.040 come here, we could have built three schools. But we 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:27.520