WEBVTT - #028 Jason Flom with Robert Jones 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:05.880 I think we have the best legal system. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.280 It's just the people that implement they get lost along 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.479 the way and forget what their job really is. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.800 He just kept on trying to remind me that who 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.040 was in authority, who was in control, and how easy 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:23.360 it was for my body to be found in any 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:24.760 alley of New York City. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.479 It's a tough prison when you have the guards going 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:31.880 against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison. 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:33.680 They do that. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.080 They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.159 in eat spaghetti like it was nothing. And anybody that said, well, 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.319 why would you confess to something that you didn't do? 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.400 My question to them will be why wouldn't you confess 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.920 when somebody's threatening to kill your life? The judge, he said, 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:50.720 how you feel? 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:52.919 I said, I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.280 lucky day you're going home. 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:17.280 This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.640 Jason Flamm. Today we have the New Orleans edition with 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.720 two people who really exemplify and personify what's wrong and 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:31.360 right about New Orleans criminal justice system. And the star 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.120 of the show today is Robert Jones. 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.280 In April nineteen ninety two, a series of violent crimes 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.920 were committed in New Orleans. One of the crimes was 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.280 the killing of the British tourist Julie Stott, after which 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.560 police received a tip and arrested Robert Jones. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.000 All, a man who served twenty three years in prison 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.320 for crimes he said he didn't commit. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:52.400 Is free tonight. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.680 The friends and family of Robert Jones broke the Core 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.960 room silence with tears and applause as they judge granted 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.640 the dismissal of rape and manslaughter chargers that had been 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:09.000 thrown out, but then prosecutors vowed to reprosecute. Barry Scheck 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.519 came down from New York to help Innocence Project attorneys 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.320 fight the case, which was originally reversed in twenty fifteen 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.280 when newly discovered evidence pointed to jones innocence. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.080 It's just extraordinary, you know. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.520 Sometimes they say it takes the village, it takes an 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:30.079 army to free one man who's wrongly convicted. 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.720 This exoneration was almost twenty five years in the making, 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.239 and it came on Robert Jones' forty fourth birthday. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.320 Robert, welcome to the show. Thank you, and our other 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:49.359 distinguished guest today is the fearless leader of IPNO, otherwise 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.960 known as the Innocence Project of New Orleans. And her 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.240 name is Emily Ma. And Emily is, as you will 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.360 soon find out, a force of nature. So Emily, welcome 0:02:59.400 --> 0:02:59.880 to ronfolk. 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:01.520 Thank you for having me. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.679 So, Robert, take us back to your childhood growing up 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.120 in Louisiana. 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:08.360 All right. 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.000 I was the elder of five other siblings my mother, 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.720 my mother had six children. I mean, we grew up 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.200 poor in the poor neighborhood. I lost my father when 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:18.440 I was at the age of seven. 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:19.200 He was killed. 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.959 He was a professional boxer. We had it sort of hard. 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:23.440 We had it. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:23.680 It was. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.680 It was hard. It was like I said, we grew 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.239 up poor. After our father was killed. It changed a 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.600 lot of things for our family to domin. Next to 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.960 our family, my mother she had to fortunately, she had 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.840 to stop going to school, so she wasn't able to 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.720 maintain a decent job to the extent to take care 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.000 of all of us, right, so she had to take 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.480 on our jobs. So it was it was rough, man, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.840 it was rough growing up. But she made it work. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:50.520 And one of the things is that I learned from 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.800 my mother is that even though she took odd jobs 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.120 or mothers used to they used to call her like 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.240 the candle lady. You know what she used to do 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.800 is she used to sell out our apartment in the 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.840 housing projects. She used to sell like different candies, apples 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.720 and different things that she made from scratch. And eventually 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.000 that kind of like substituted, you know, her income in 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:19.479 the sense of actually providing for us. You know, so 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.520 my mother is the biggest you know, my biggest heroes 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.080 because she made something out of nothing to take care 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.479 of us. And you know, in the process of me 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.360 growing up, you see a lot of things in the neighborhood. 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.719 And eventually I dropped out of school in the eighth grade, 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.680 and you know I did regular things, you know, hung out, 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.680 hung out, even though I mean my mother in approve 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.280 of it, but I guess not having that for the 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.159 figure there, it's only so much that a woman can 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.520 actually do to a young man growing up when she 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.560 reached those particular stages that I had reached on that time, 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.320 you know, I was in my maybe early teens. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.680 And so you grew up where we are right now 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.640 in New Orleans and the aticenter of the criminal injustice system, 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.600 right so you're going along making the best of the situation. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.160 How old were you when this crazy scenario happened that 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.479 you didn't even know about, right and what was going 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.000 on in your life at that point in time. 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.640 Well, at that point, I just turned nineteen years old, 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.840 already had two children, and I had big dreams and 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.799 aspiration to one of you know, I was always fascinated 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.200 about business. I kind of like went to on the 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.240 mentorship with an older guy who I know you He 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.040 was a form of drug dealer and I guess you 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.240 were just classify as being retired. So he started dealing 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.000 in real estate and I start, you know, from there, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.159 my focus kind of like went there. You know, I 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:43.960 kind of like wanted to get back in school, but 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.720 saw like was embarrassed because you know, the age difference 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.520 was going back to school. So I started seeking out 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.560 help in those particular areas to try to get in 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.320 programmed so I can get back in school, so I 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.520 can educate myself. Because I know, if I say, okay, 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.120 you know, for me to learn or to understand and 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.760 the business world understand real estate, I mean I have 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.320 to get academically in client. So I know I had 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.880 to go back to school. So that's what my mind said, 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.960 because I wanted a better life for my children. I 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.119 wanted to create a better world for my kids because 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:14.960 I know how we grew up. Not new for them 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.000 of my mother, but I knew that she struggled, and 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.640 I wanted to change and break that particular cycle. So 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.360 that's where my ambition was at. And all of a sudden, 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.320 you know, and at the age of nineteen, this happened. 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.719 It is kind of like it really just strolled things 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.599 totally off, I mean, really devastated my entire family. 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.719 Emily, Let's let's talk about this because this is an 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.960 interesting case because it's not just one case. Right. What 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.720 happened was in nineteen ninety two, there was a series 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.960 of attacks in and around the French Quarter that Robert 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.760 ended up being implicated in and that we now know 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.120 were committed by an individual who shares his last name 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:59.000 but nothing else, no relation. This was a very violent 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.560 time in a Maria and certainly in New Orleans. And 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.640 this was a particularly violent series of crimes that happened 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.160 in an area where the authorities don't like to have crime. 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.480 Very bad for tourism when you have, you know, serious 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.119 rapes and murders and things happening in the French Quarter. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.920 So can you take us back and explain what this 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:20.560 crime spree was all about. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.760 Sure, there was a series of crimes that, at least 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.240 as we know, began April the sixth of nineteen ninety two. 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:33.120 A man was committing robberies in his car. He was armed. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.920 He would pull up, get out the car, rob people, 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.840 and in some of the cases he did more than that, 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.840 or tried to do more than that. In the first instance, 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.040 he took one of the female victims and raped her. 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.360 In the desire project, he asked his victims to lie 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.320 on the ground. And a week later he robbed several 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.320 more people in the French Quarter, right around the corner 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.720 from where he had abducted the first party of people 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.760 a week previous. And in the second night of his 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.960 crime spree, he robbed two people. He walked around the 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.160 corner or pulled around the corner of his car in 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.080 the French Quarter, and he tried to rob a pair 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.560 of English tourists who just arrived in town, and he 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.720 shot the woman her name is Julie Stott, dead in 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:22.320 that attempted armed robbery. A few hours later he used 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.360 his car and went off in about a mile up 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:26.400 the road, robbed some people who were coming out of 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.480 a Poe Boy store close to the French Quarter. And 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.599 the killing of the English tourist Judie Stott was a 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:34.640 very big deal. It was a big deal here in 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.559 the newspapers. It was a big deal at home in England. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.280 When I say at home, obviously I'm from England, because 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.840 New Orleans relied so much on tourism. Because it is 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.240 horrifying to think that you could be on vacation, just 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.720 walking along the street and get shot dead by a 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:56.439 man wielding a gun. Because frankly, she was a young, pretty, 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.640 college educated white girl from England, the case got a 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.680 lot of attention, and there was a big reward that 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.360 was issued for anybody with information that would help to 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.000 find the person who had killed her. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.040 Right, ten thousand dollars crime stoppers, right, And that's right. 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.200 And let's not forget this is twenty five plus years ago, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:16.640 so ten thousand dollars. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.000 Was double that right now in today's money. And you know, 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.600 is anybody, any police officer in this town anywhere, will 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.920 tell you when there is reward money offered, you get 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.760 a whole lot of crap called in, right, And what 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.800 happened in this case was a tip got called in 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.640 named Robert Jones and his friends as having been bragging 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.840 about killing the lady in a bar or something like that, 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.959 or talking about it in a bar, and the police, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.520 as they often do, started with that name, which is 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:47.800 a method the police used. They will pull that name 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.360 and see if there's anything to it. The police had 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.480 realized that the same person had committed all these crimes 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.080 because it was the same car that was used, and 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:55.760 they were all done in the same area, the same 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.600 mo victims had to lie on the ground. He asked 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.080 for very specific things, a similar description of the perpetrator. 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:04.800 And so when they get the name Robert Jones, he's 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:06.960 a suspect in all the crimes, really, and they show 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.480 his photo to the rape victim in the first crime 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:10.520 and she picked him out. 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:12.120 As a result, he was. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.080 Arrested for the murder, which was the big crime that 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.719 was being investigated. It was the big, high profile. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.640 Crime because if he did want he did them all. 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.360 That's right, the same person did all them. So Robert 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.600 was booked with a series of crimes, including the murder, arrested, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.160 put in jail. His arrest was all over the newspapers. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.000 It was all over the British newspapers, It was all 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.400 over the television. It was a big deal. They got 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.840 the person who killed the English tourist and done the 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.679 other crimes as well. The problem is that after he 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.600 was arrested and put in jail, the crime spree in 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.720 the car with his own gunman continued. 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:44.640 And it was a distinctive car. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.480 It was very distinctive car. It's a big burgundy Oldsmobile 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.640 I think, and it had like a landau roof right. 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.600 And so when the police realized. 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.360 That the crime spree had continued even though they'd arrested 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.240 Robert Jones, that tipped them off that they might have 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.520 not got the person responsible. And so the homicide and 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.640 robbery detectives kept investigating the case. And what they found 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.440 was the man who owned the car. They found the 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.120 car in the Desire project, and he had jewelry or 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.960 things taken from the victims in each one of the robberies, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.360 including the last one in the spree, and including the 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.320 first one that ended in a rape. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.559 So this one came with instructions. 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:27.240 He had the gun that was used to kill the 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.320 English tourists. He had the bullets that matched the ones 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.120 that were found in her head. He had the glasses 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.079 in his car that the person had described the rapist wearing. 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.679 He had jewelry or things taken from each of the victims. 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.760 He lived less than a block from where the rape 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.680 victim had been taken to be raped. In the case, 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:47.080 he matched the description exactly of the perpetrator that each 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:48.400 of the victims had given. 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.920 And isn't it true that he had said to at 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.679 least one of the victims that he was taking her 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.360 to the neighborhood where he lived. 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:56.880 Yeah, he told the rape victim, I going to take 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.160 you to my neck of the woods, before parking his 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.880 car next to his apartment, basically and taking her to 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.960 an abandoned building in that building within the Desire Project. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.000 And Robert, you didn't live anywhere near there, no, right. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.720 So Robert also had a distinctive physical feature, which is 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:16.360 gold teeth. Right, And none of the victims described somebody 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.439 with gold teeth, which would be a harder thing than 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:20.640 most to screw up. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.680 If it was Robert Jones, you would not miss it. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.679 Because Robert has he no longer has them. But Robert's teeth. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.240 They were completely gold at the front. He can't speak 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.120 without exposing his teeth. Some people maybe can, I don't 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.240 know Ventriloquist, but Robert cannot do that. And it is 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.880 very very obvious if it is Robert Jones that the 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:38.560 person has gold teeth. There is no way that he 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.560 could have committed five crimes and said many things, including 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.559 the woman who has taken off an aducted rape, who 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.040 spent a while with her attacker. It would not be 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.320 possible for him to have interacted with any of these people, 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.640 and no one had noticed the gold teeth. 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.640 So what we have now is a situation where somewhere 0:12:54.679 --> 0:13:01.320 inside police headquarters they're going, uh oh, I need Sherlock Holmes. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:07.400 In this particular case, everything points in one direction away 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.440 from the guy that they had arrested. But they had 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.120 made a big deal out of this arrest and had 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:21.080 gotten a lot of attention, accolades, media pats on the back. 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.280 None of that sounds like something that they would want 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:30.400 to have undone or exposed. They'll probably look a little silly. 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.880 So they've got the real guy, but they still got 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:35.560 the wrong guy. 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.640 So I think what happens at that point right now 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.880 is anyone's guest. But I think it's pretty clear what happened, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.440 and I think it's a perfectly normal human reaction, right, 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.160 And I think we need to be very careful about 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.520 what happened with the police when they found Lester Jones. 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.720 The first reaction when you're a police officer detective and 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.240 you've got your suspects, and you've booked your suspects and 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.240 you've charged your suspect, all of us, all of us 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:03.120 human beings, have brain means that exist to confirm our 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.360 existing beliefs or suspicions. Right, So if you think you've 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.920 got the person, and you find somebody who's got everything 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.040 and the car, and it's clearly involved in this crime 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:15.960 spree in some kind of way, your first reaction is, 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:18.920 how are they connected? Right? They must be because obviously 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.720 I've got my person. And so that was their reaction. Now, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.960 the police's first reaction is that they must be connected. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:25.960 They must be connected. They must be connected, because we've 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.680 got our person. And so they interrogate Lester Jones for 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:33.360 a very long time while in the process of executing 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.640 search warrants on his department and his car. Are various 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.640 places that could have property connected to the crime spree. 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.880 Did you know Lester Jones? No, so you had no 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:43.400 connection to him. What's happened right? 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:45.960 Lester Jones says he first told police he didn't know 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.120 Robert Jones. He was then in the custody of at 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.720 least one officer who's pretty notorious for his interrogation tactics, 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:59.160 and after many hours of interrogation questioning, Lester Jones says 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.840 he does know. But Jones you can't name him, actually 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.720 calls him something else and it says that he lent 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.200 him his car in exchange for jewelry or something, and 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:11.440 there was a gun in the car, and one day 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:12.960 he lent it to Robert Jones, and then it came 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:13.800 back and the gun. 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.080 Was still in the dash, some very funny story. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.840 As this is going on, then they're getting more and 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.000 more property from less Jones, and then they find the gun, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.040 and they find more stuff from the stalk holder side, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.360 and it comes pretty clear that Lester Jones is not 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.720 just somebody who lent his car out for someone else 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:34.280 to commit crimes in that he didn't keep anything from 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.880 By the way, when they executed all the search warrants 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.640 on Robert's house and places he used to visit, places 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:42.640 you know, where people stayed, that he knew. They found 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.720 absolutely nothing connecting him to any of these crimes, which. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:46.480 Would be a little bit of. 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.200 A relp exactly exactly, and the police have said that, 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:50.800 you know, they knew there may be something wrong when 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.680 there was nothing connecting him. Usually if you've been on 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.000 a robbery spree, you're going to find something connecting each 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:56.600 of those crimes. 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.560 Yeah, my guess is that by the time they were 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.960 finished interrogating Lester, Jones would have probably said that he 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:03.280 knew Abraham Lincoln too. 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:04.680 Yeah, I think he probably would have done that, but 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.440 he certainly knew Robert. And then ultimately he made some 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.640 cockamami story about how they all did the murder together, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:12.000 Robert and his friends, because they'd also book Robert's friends 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.760 in connection with this crime spree. And it's a totally 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.280 preposterous statement. But what happens is there's some really good 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.200 police work in this case. And I think that, you know, 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.880 very often these cases involved very sloppy police work, and 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.120 there were certainly some of that on one end, but 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.280 there were some good detectives. And I think whether it 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.280 should be a lot of credit given is a couple 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.960 of the detectives, one homicide detective and one robbery detective 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.480 who even though they had this confession from Ester Jones 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.240 allegedly saying me and Robert did all this stuff together, 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.600 and even though there was a couple of eyewitness ideas 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.680 of Robert, they were and still are the kind of 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.360 quality police that understand that that in itself is not 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.520 damning right, that it can be, but it is not conclusive, 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.280 and that that's the kind of evidence. It's very manipulable. 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.720 And so they kept investigating, and they kept investigating, and 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.680 they investigated whether these statements that he'd given in the 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:05.000 custody of this officer who somewhat notorious, whether there was 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:06.840 any truth to them. And they said, and they have 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.480 now testified many times under oath, both of them sadly 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.880 not at any of Robert's initial proceedings. But later on 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.040 when they were called and asked these questions, they couldn't 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.400 confirm any connection between Lester and Robert. There was no 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.879 evidence connecting Lester Jones and Robert Jones. Lester Jones had 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.679 been in prison and only got out eighteen months before 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:29.080 this for an armed robbery that happened in the French 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.840 Quadron in nineteen seventy nine, so maybe he got a 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.960 little under two years previously. So there was a long 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.119 period where they were together. They didn't live in the 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.800 same neighborhood. There was just no connection between them. And 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:42.160 so the. 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.159 Police who had figured that out, they figured that, well, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:44.440 we've got. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.960 This statement, but it's kind of bs. We're going to 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.280 keep investigating and see whether our initial suspect really was 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.160 good for this. Have testified now under oath many times 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.920 that they went to the prosecutors and they said, we've 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.560 got nothing on Robert Jones. It was one person on 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.639 that crime, and it was Lester James. It wasn't Robert, 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.360 and there is no connection between these two, and. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.000 The victims knew it was one person. 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:09.960 All with one exception, which I'll come to in a minute, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.439 all describe one person. And so what happens is you 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.280 have the police saying Detective James Stewart, who again deserves 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.159 a lot of credit here, went to the prosecutors and 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:19.960 he has testified as the only time in his law 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.000 enforcement career, his thirty year career in law enforcement, that 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.040 he went to the prosecutors and said I arrested the 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.040 wrong guy initially, and he will tell you it was 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:28.399 a bit of a black eye, that it was a 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.600 high profile case. We thought we had our guy and 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:31.320 it turned out. 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.919 It wasn't him that somehow got lost. 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.679 Well, I mean, I say that very loosely. I think it. 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.400 I think it was never never taken seriously or never 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.720 turned over. And what happened is Robert remained charged on 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.320 several of the crimes. Lester got charged with some of 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.720 the crimes, and they tried to just kind of have 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.919 it both ways, the prosecutors, this is not the police 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:51.440 at this point. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.800 What's going on in your head and your you know, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.720 your psyche at this time, because you're locked up now 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.879 right awaiting the outcome of this, I assume you couldn't 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.920 post bail, right, No, how much did you know about 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.760 what Emily's describing that was going on in the situation. 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.119 It was all swirling around you. But I don't know 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.240 what they were telling you, or what or what you 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.680 thought your outlook was, or whether you thought you would 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:24.720 be able to get justice. 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:26.320 At first, I thought it was a print. 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.760 Actually I really thought it was a print, because I mean, 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:31.919 when you knew for a fact that you didn't do 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.359 anything and somebody saying that you did it is like 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:35.440 the officer. 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:36.840 Has got to be some type of joke. 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.760 And I know when we got to the station and 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.199 they went the question is, I'm like telling you, now, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.520 what are you talking about? I don't know nothing that 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.080 you're talking about. You know, It's really it was crazy 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:51.880 even at some point after I got charged. I mean, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.520 I didn't know nothing what was going on. Only thing 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.920 that I was able to get information about the situation 0:19:58.080 --> 0:19:59.880 is from the news because it was on the news 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.840 every day. Didn't at a certain pert that had became 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.520 so frust grated just to watch it. So at one point, 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.280 I mean I just didn't watch it, don't want to 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:09.000 hear about. 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:09.200 It or nothing. 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.240 I mean I was just kind of like frus grated 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.040 in the back of my mind. I just I realized, 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.200 I say, okay, maybe they might drop the case. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.040 Oh. I just couldn't see myself getting found guilty. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.040 So you were in jail, right, and the TV would 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.399 come on and you'd see yourself on the TV. Right, 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:27.920 How strange is that? 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:28.680 That was crazy? 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.520 And then I imagine that doesn't engender anything other than 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:37.840 hostility from the guards or other inmates, because you're now 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.240 kind of a notorious guy, right right, and you're also 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.920 like an infamous guy. But I mean, what a weird thing. 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.640 Like here you are just a regular guy nineteen years old, 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.040 a couple kids, trying to figure out your life, right, 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.560 and the next thing you know, you're in prison or 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.720 jail which could be worse in prison, right, and you're 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.359 watching TV and there you are this like notorious, like 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:04.800 multiple rapist, murderer, a guy like you're sitting there going 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.080 wait a minute, you even having this strange nightmare. 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:08.680 Or right right? 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.240 And yeah, that's exactly what it was. As you say, 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.240 you know, jail can be you know because during that 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.320 particular time in the nineteen nineties, New Orleans Parish Old 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.440 Paris jail, which most violent criminals is, really was tough. 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:24.320 I mean I grew up in a tough naggs, so 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:25.840 I know how to defend myself, and I had to 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.560 defend myself a lot in the sense of, you know, 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.160 you hear people talking, you know, like oh, yeah, they're 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.600 gonna send him, They're gonna send him to the prison. 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:35.080 He gonna never get out of person. You know, you 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.320 can walk up on conversations like that. I'm like, it's like, 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:44.600 you can't tell nobody that because poor people, especially young blacks, 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.160 you know, it's like they must have did something, they're 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.080 doing some type of crime. And it was just the 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.320 image that's perpetuated about that. It's like, Okay, this nigga 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.800 wrote and did all this, and I'm like, you can't 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.359 even explain that to nobody, right, you know, all that 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.600 very few people that me understand and even in the 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:02.959 back of their mind like, okay them people ain't got 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:04.920 them child with all that for nothing, you know, you 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:05.680 can't even expend. 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.720 So at that point, I mean, I really need to 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:09.520 talk to him about it. 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.800 I mean I just I kind of like stayed to myself, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.840 and a lot of people was fearful because I was 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.359 kind of like a quiet person in the sense and 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.760 they know I was a person that will defend myself. 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.359 So when it is, you know, it's kind of like 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:25.600 kept everything out of balanced. You know, it's like it 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.200 was a crazy time. You know, you got, like I said, 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.679 you walked up on a conversations that like, yeah, they 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.720 gonna send this bigga such and such, They're gonna execute me, 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:34.520 and all kind of stuff. 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:36.840 I'm like, you don't even know nothing about me. 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.440 So Emily, back to you. Finally comes to a trial. 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:42.159 Four years after he was arrested. 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.480 He was tried four years waiting. 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:46.200 For He sat in jail for four years. 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.200 Wow, let's just think about that for a second. Four 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.680 years is just if we just think about anybody listening, 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.560 think about what the last four years of your life 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.560 looked like and all the things that you did, and 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:02.359 you're just sitting there waiting try That's a crazy amount 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.760 of time and it should be. It's totally unacceptable. Emily. 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.399 What happened to the constitutional right to a speedy trial? 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:12.440 Where does that fit into all of this? Isn't that 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.800 one of the central tenets of the justice system in America. 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.160 There are a couple of factors at work that meant 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.720 Robert sat in jail for four years. One of them is, Honestly, 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:25.560 I don't think anybody from the prosecutor's office wanted to 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.320 try this case because it was clear that Lester Jones 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:30.840 had done this crime spree to anybody looking at the file, 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.520 and Lester Jones was before Robert's trial, was convicted of 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.200 the stotthomicide. He was convicted of the robberies that happened 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:39.400 right afterwards, so. 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:40.359 He'd already been convicted of that. 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:42.679 James was convicted of that and centers to life of 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:45.320 that parole. And he was convicted of the robbery that 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:47.560 happened a couple of hours later, and he was charged 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:50.040 with the robbery that happened after Robert was in jail. 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:54.040 And I think that any reasonable prosecutor looking at the 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:56.800 case thought he's going to use that as his defense, 0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:00.240 except as a complicating factor, which is that they charged 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.080 Robert with the murder as well, even though it was 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.880 one person crime. They charged him with the murder by 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:08.800 by presenting perjury to the grand jury information they knew 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:13.240 to be false. It horrendous, horrendous behavior by a prosecutor 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:17.080 in this case. So Roberts sort of hands were tied 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.520 on his defense, or were because his defense lawyer was 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.360 also asleep at the wheel. His defense lawyer rarely showed up. 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.359 When he did, he did not do any investigation right away. 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:28.800 Robert had an alibi. It was at his son's birthday 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:30.520 party on the night this rape happened. Then he was 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:33.399 charged with everybody there could have testified to that if 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:36.840 the defense had spoken to them within two, three, four, 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.920 five weeks, six weeks, two months, even six months, right, 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.359 But he didn't. He rarely showed up to court. He 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:45.960 didn't file any motions, any motions except a motion for 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:48.760 speed trial after he'd been asking for delays for two years. 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:51.679 It was Robert just is a very clear example of 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:54.680 somebody who gets completely lost in the system. Nobody really 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:56.359 wants to do anything about it. The judge isn't going 0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:57.840 to push it, the prosecutor is not going to push it. 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:00.560 The defense is asleep at the wheel. Roberts defense overs 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:02.280 was criminally negligent in this case. 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.679 I'm getting the chills when I hear you say that 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:10.360 he rarely showed up to court, Like that sounds impossible, right. 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:12.520 No, it's not impossible at all. Robert gets brought in 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.360 cross cubs. Defence is not there, he continued to next week. 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:17.720 It's just for a status or something anyway, and so 0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:20.040 it just rolls along like that for years. There's a 0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:22.560 very basic motion in a criminal case called if there's 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:26.560 an identification, and it's called emotion to suppress the identification, 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:29.119 which would have been a very fruitful motion in this 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:30.600 case because there are a lot of problems with the 0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:33.280 way the identification happened, and it was very clear by 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:35.800 the way the victim's testimony changed from what she told 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:38.760 police initially to match Robert Jones right by the time 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:40.800 of the trial, she was just describing the person she 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:42.359 saw in front of her. She wasn't describing the person 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:44.320 she remembers from the night of the crime. And if 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:45.800 you look at the police notes from the time, it's 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.840 very very clear that she's describing an entirely different person 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:50.960 by the time Robert James is on trial from the 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:55.520 initial description. Emotion to suppress the identification is a basic 0:25:55.800 --> 0:25:59.080 Every single criminal defense lawyer with an identification case does 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:01.440 it unless there is a airing reason not to. That 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.439 would not be the case here. Robert initially was appointed 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.200 to public defender. That's what happened. If you don't have 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:07.560 a lawyer with you on the day that you go 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:10.000 to be arranged, they'll they'll appoint the public defender and 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:13.480 then Robert. Ultimately, Robert's family scraped together to hire probably 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.480 the worst purchase they've ever made, hire a defense lawyer 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:20.639 for him, because everybody knew the public defender was overworked, 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:23.200 didn't necessarily have the resources to do what they needed 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:25.320 to do, at least that's the reputation right in the 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:28.639 nineties here, and rightly so they were. They didn't have 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:31.280 any money and didn't have any resources, and so when 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:34.400 the public defenders appointed, they file all these boiler plate motions, 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:37.359 motion to suppress the identification, motion to suppress any evidence 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:39.240 was seized, all the kinds of things the criminals defensor 0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:41.720 does for good reason. When the private lawyer comes in 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:43.920 the case, he withdraws all those motions and doesn't file 0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:47.200 any of his own. So there was never any issue 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:49.280 as to whether an identification of Robert, which was an 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:51.520 incorrect identification it tends out, was coming in at trial. 0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:53.760 He withdrew the work that had already been done and 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:56.880 did nothing else for four years. He didn't even go 0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:00.480 to the trial of Lester Jones for them murdered that 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:02.840 his client was charged with, or read the transcript of 0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:05.080 that case to see what they were saying at Leicester 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:08.879 Jones's trial about who did this crime. He then pled 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:12.639 his client guilty to murder to manslaughter in the Stott 0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:15.200 homicide after he'd got him wrongly convicted at a trial 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:18.760 of rape. He then recommended that Robert plead guilty to 0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:23.200 four separate charges, including including the homicide that Lester Jones 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:25.440 had already been convicted of in a crime that everybody 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:28.800 described as a one person crime, and a robbery that 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:31.639 Robert didn't even know he was pleading guilty too. And 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:33.560 I guarantee the defense lawyer didn't even know it was 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:35.840 a different incident either. He didn't even know he pled 0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:38.320 guilty to that crime until twenty years later. We told 0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:40.920 him the paperwork that shows it was a completely separate incident, 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:42.560 and they snuck it in there, and he told him 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:44.840 to plead, and he didn't know he was pleading guilty 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.840 to a separate robbery. This defense lawyer is now suspended, 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:49.240 I think, from the practice of law, but he is 0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:51.800 not permanently disbarred, which is a crime in itself. 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:54.040 That is a crime in itself, and of all the 0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:57.760 horrible twists and turns in this case. For some reason, 0:27:57.920 --> 0:28:01.760 it's really bugging me. I've just been imagining you showing 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:04.280 up at court and looking to your right and to 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:07.840 your left and not seeing your lawyer and going what's 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:11.240 going on here? Like, what the fuck is going on here? 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:14.320 Outside of family members in you know, friends, That was 0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:18.199 supporting It's like me against the entire system in the 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:23.600 sense it's like I'm staying before a system and nobody 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:26.680 has my interest. It's obviously I didn't do these crimes, 0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:30.840 but the idea of having no type of representation for 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:33.760 my particular RSIs like it was crazy. 0:28:34.160 --> 0:28:37.960 So now you end up getting convicted sends to the 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:41.840 most popular sentence in Louisiana, oh, the most common, most 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.480 popular among law enforcement. I would say, life without parole, right, 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:48.120 and you end up going to Angola. I mean, you're 0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:51.400 such a positive person. People just light up when they 0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:53.720 talk about you. And you know, we were talking last 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:57.600 night about how it took twelve thousand hours of legal 0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:03.600 time of lawyers donating time to free you from this 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:07.680 grip that the criminal justice system had on you. And 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:09.320 from being in that room with a lot of people 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:10.840 who did the work, I can say that if somebody 0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:12.360 would have said, well it would have taken one hundred 0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:14.080 and twenty thousand hours, people would have said, well, ill 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:16.280 sign me up for that too. I mean, like everybody 0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:18.360 feels like this was the best time that they spent 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.680 because of the way you are. But how how are 0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:24.360 you like that? How is that possible? When someone has 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:29.080 been through this very profound experience of being abandoned even 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:31.560 by the people that are being paid to protect you, 0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:34.120 not just the system, but also your own team, and 0:29:34.160 --> 0:29:38.560 then being thrust into this Angola plantation. They call it 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:41.560 a jail, but it's a slave plantation. How'd you maintain 0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:42.800 this attitude? 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:47.440 Well, we'll give me spriint is it used to bother 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:49.480 me to talk about it, but I have to now 0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:53.360 because it's therapeutic. But nineteen ninety six I was found guilty. 0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:56.720 But at the same time, within that same year, I 0:29:56.800 --> 0:30:00.560 lost my brother. My brother was killed. And you know 0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.560 brother he was he was maybe a year, well two 0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:06.640 years younger than me, but we did everything together coming up. 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:09.360 And he wasn't like only a brother, He was like 0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:11.680 a son of me, because like I said, I was 0:30:11.680 --> 0:30:14.280 born like a big brother, father figure. And you know, 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:16.640 my brother he dropped out of school as well, and 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:19.120 he sold drugs. You know, he kind of rose to 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:21.880 the level of selling drugs. That kind of the thing 0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:25.200 was for guys in that particular thighborhood. And he was 0:30:25.200 --> 0:30:28.000 one of my my supporters in the sense of, you know, 0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.520 being able to help my mother out even though you know, 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:35.760 She didn't condone it. She always disagreed with that type 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:38.720 of action. But he helped out, and he helped me out. 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:41.640 He was helping me out because he knew that I 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:44.920 was innocent. In prison, I couldn't afford the attorney. 0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:49.040 So he sold drugs to. 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:51.840 Raise money to try to get me a better attorney, 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:54.000 and he lost his life because of that. 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:56.120 He lost his life. 0:30:56.320 --> 0:31:00.520 So from that particular stage, from that part right there, 0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:04.200 I decided that I wanted to make a change. That 0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:06.240 was one of the most bivocult point in my life 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:09.680 in nineteen ninety six, and I decided that I'm gonna 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:12.080 fight for justice. I'm gonna get out of prison and 0:31:12.160 --> 0:31:14.880 anyway I see and justice umber standing and fight because 0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:17.480 I feel like, you know, he the most currazy person 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.920 in my eyesight because he gave it likee to try 0:31:20.920 --> 0:31:26.200 to save minds. So from that part, I re educated myself. 0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:28.080 And when he got my GED, I rose in school, 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.320 got my GED and I sit and try to master 0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:35.720 every aspect of life I could, because I wanted. 0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:38.480 To be a beacon up hope to other people. 0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:41.280 So my method what I use is I kind of 0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:44.720 like detached myself from any type of cir circumstance in 0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:48.920 the sense of like being denied, like I always helped him. 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:51.240 I used to get denied all the time. When I 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:54.560 started doing my approceed litigation, you know, it was hurting 0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:56.280 at first, and then it started hurting them less so 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.880 because I realized that they were all in denying the rich, 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.400 that it wasn't denied me. I had to detach myself 0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.240 from it, and I realized that everything is take a process. 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.720 And I'm not saying I don't never get frustrated or 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:12.440 get discouraged or hurt because I'm a human being. But 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:15.600 I don't allow nothing just to devastate me like that 0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:17.520 no more, you know, and not just kind of keep 0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:19.720 on going no matter what it is. I just have 0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:21.960 to deal with it whatever face me. I don't care 0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:23.840 what it is. I want to face it. I'm not 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:27.840 afraid of anything anything to anybody, any system. 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:30.320 I'm not afraid of it. I'm just face me with it. 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:31.880 I'm not afraid. 0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:34.800 I can see that, and it is and I know 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:37.400 I'd heard that aspect of your story and it really 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:39.760 knocked me out. I mean, the idea that in the 0:32:39.800 --> 0:32:42.320 process of the system trying to steal your life to 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:44.680 actually stole your brother's life because in a very real way, 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:48.200 he was in this case a sort of I mean, 0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:49.640 you can't really say it any other way. It was 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:52.880 a heroic figure, and that he was out there doing 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:55.920 what he was doing, not because he wanted fancy jewelry 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.360 or whatever else, but so that he could pay for 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:01.840 a lawyer, which you should have had in the first place. So, Emily, 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:06.800 how did this seemingly impossible situation up against the odds 0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:10.640 as much as you could be How did you unravel this? 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:13.200 We started looking at Robert's case in two thousand and 0:33:13.200 --> 0:33:16.280 four before Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, and we were 0:33:16.280 --> 0:33:18.120 looking because it was very clear to us that if 0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:20.400 we could find the rape kit from the rape we 0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:22.880 could probably exonerate him because it was pretty clear to 0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.760 us that he was innocent, And so we looked for 0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:28.080 it and it was lost. It had been thrown out 0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:32.280 or destroyed or just gone. All the biological evidence that 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:35.200 could be tested had been thrown out before Hurricane Katrina. 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:37.120 And I say that because a lot of a lot 0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:40.080 of evidence got lost in Katrina. And so there's either 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:41.760 are cases where you look now and if it was 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:44.120 a pre Katrina case, the evidence is likely gone, but 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:46.480 this was just the general negligence of New Orleans before 0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:50.000 Hurricane Katrina flooded the evidence facilities. So we looked at 0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:51.800 that and we wanted to help Robert. But then when 0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:55.280 the evidence was gone, we came back post Katrina. We 0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:57.640 also we talked to Lester Jones and he said, yeah, 0:33:57.680 --> 0:33:59.280 I don't know this guy, and they maybe say it, 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:02.280 I owner who he is. When we were screening the 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:03.720 case to see if it would be a good case 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:06.160 to do DNA testing on, and when he said that 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.320 to us, and we were just doing it for purposes 0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:11.080 of checking out whether we really thought Robert was innocent 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:13.960 and DNA could help him, that made us really understand 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:17.080 that Robert was completely innocent and they screwed this up royally, 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:19.239 so we couldn't do it for DNA testing. And then 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:21.279 when we came back after Katrina, we didn't really have 0:34:21.320 --> 0:34:23.160 the resources to do his case at that point because 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.319 it was a big and very very complicated case. It 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:27.200 was not just the rape case, but it's the homicide 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.840 plea and the subsequent the subsequent cases, and though it 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:32.120 was going to be a very complicated, long struggle, we 0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:34.400 kind of knew that, and we also thought Robert was 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:35.640 a pretty good lawyer. He may't be able to do 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.760 it himself. Frankly, we knew he had some good information, 0:34:38.840 --> 0:34:41.120 including the stuff from Lester Jones, and I'm like, well, 0:34:41.160 --> 0:34:43.239 we I mean, like a good judge could give him 0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:46.320 relief with what he has. And we knew he was litigating, 0:34:46.360 --> 0:34:47.840 so we stayed in touch with him, but we weren't 0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:49.680 working on his case at that point because of our 0:34:49.719 --> 0:34:52.239 resource issues. He got denied. You know, we're looking at 0:34:52.239 --> 0:34:54.600 a case with a guy that we're convinced is innocent. 0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:57.600 There's no physical evidence. They've lost the district attorneys far, 0:34:57.640 --> 0:34:59.640 which many times in these cases is the source of 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:02.200 ex or information that can get a conviction thrown out 0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:05.200 if the person is innocent. So they didn't have the 0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:08.520 district's attorney's father'd lost the physical evidence. He'd exhausted his 0:35:08.600 --> 0:35:11.840 appeals he had. He was charged and convicted of ten 0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:16.520 separate charges from three different crimes, four of which he 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.680 pled guilty to. He was sentenced to life with that barol. 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:20.600 He had eight sentences of twenty five years on top 0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:23.839 of that, plus a twenty year sentence, and he'd had 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:26.960 two place conviction applications which had been rejected now, which 0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:29.319 means he is procedurally barred and time barred. 0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:29.600 Right. 0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:32.359 So all that, I have a really great colleague who 0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:34.640 was my coke haunts on this case for many years 0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:36.600 and who looked at it at that point and he's like, 0:35:36.880 --> 0:35:38.719 I think we can get this guy excelerated. And I 0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:41.520 thought he was joking, actually, but he explained that he 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:44.520 thought we could get some more information and that where 0:35:44.520 --> 0:35:47.759 it would come from. And I said, well, let's do it. 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.160 And that was in two thousand and nine, and we 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:52.960 litigated for a long time. And you know, the default, 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:56.000 the default, especially for someone who's tried to get themselves 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:58.880 out of prison before, is deny, deny, deny, deny. Right, 0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:01.440 you're out of time two lately, fathers before it's the 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:03.520 same information, it's not the same information. We found a 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:05.760 whole lot more information in the police files than Robert 0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:08.880 had been able to get himself from prison, including the 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:11.160 details of Lester Jones's crime spree which had never been 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:14.480 turned over to Robert, including the initial descriptions of the 0:36:14.560 --> 0:36:17.360 rape victim in the case, which clearly matched Leester Jones 0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.359 not Robert Jones, in key ways in which they were 0:36:19.360 --> 0:36:21.719 different in the ways in which they were different. Her 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:25.360 initial descriptions matched Lester Jones, not Robert Jones. We found 0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:28.520 information in the Leicester Jones files at the District Attorney's 0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.279 office showing that they had presented perjury basically to the 0:36:31.280 --> 0:36:33.200 grand jury in Roberts case to try to get an 0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:36.400 indictment in the Stot homicide. And then we talked to 0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:39.560 the police officers who said, oh no, we figured out 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:41.799 that wasn't rober Jones. We told the prosecutors that, so 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:43.279 you know, at that point we had a lot of 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:45.919 information that most reasonable courts would look at and say, 0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:48.240 this man does not need to be convicted of this anymore. 0:36:48.239 --> 0:36:50.080 But it still took us seven years, and we filed 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:51.880 in twenty ten, and we spent the first three and 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:54.799 a half years arguing over whether he was too late 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:57.840 to bring all this information to the courts which he 0:36:57.880 --> 0:36:59.839 couldn't have got previously been doing his best to get 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:01.759 well every could from prison, and so we did that 0:37:01.880 --> 0:37:03.960 many times. In these cases, what you argue about for 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:06.400 a long time is whether the person even has the 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:08.560 right to be there in court presenting their new evidence. 0:37:08.840 --> 0:37:10.799 So we did that for three and a half years 0:37:10.800 --> 0:37:14.000 twenty ten to the middle of twenty thirteen, right and 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:17.120 then after that we presented the evidence in a hearing 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:19.160 late twenty thirteen in front of a judge here in 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.759 New Orleans, and it included testimony from both the two 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:26.520 main detectives who investigated the robbery spree and the homicide. 0:37:26.719 --> 0:37:29.040 We had all of the police documentation in the record, 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:31.919 We had witnesses, We had a lot of people talking 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:34.120 about the fact that there was no connection between Robert 0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:36.719 James and Lester Jones. We had expert witnesses and so on. 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:39.600 And the judge, you know, she took a few months 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:43.520 to deny Robert, say no and there's nothing new under 0:37:43.520 --> 0:37:45.440 the sun. And so then we took what's called a 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:47.759 writ to the appellate court here and said, it is 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:49.960 clear that all this information should have been heard by 0:37:50.000 --> 0:37:52.680 the jury that convicted Robert Jones, even shouldn't have even 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:54.040 got as far as a trial when you've got all 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:56.240 this information that it was clearly the wrong person, including 0:37:56.280 --> 0:37:58.320 the police telling you that you've got the wrong person. 0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:02.040 And so we took that appeal and the appellate court 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:03.960 took it on and they threw out Robert's conviction in 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:06.480 late twenty fourteen, October twenty fourteen. 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:09.280 So October twenty fourteen, you're both in court. 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.200 No no, So we argued it in September, which is 0:38:12.200 --> 0:38:13.960 the Court of Appeal. So Robert is not present for 0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:15.600 that because it's an appellate court, right, it's not the 0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:17.640 district court. If you're in prison, you get brought in 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:20.040 for a something that involves taking evidence or testimony, so 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:21.719 you get brought into the district court, which is like 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:24.880 the trial level court. After that, Roberts family was there 0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:26.680 when we argued it in the Court of Appeal. Breathe 0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:29.240 was there, Kendra, I think came. But it's just lawyers 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:30.799 in court arguing us. Now, there's no right to be 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:33.160 present if you're locked up for something like that. So 0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:35.320 we did that and then they rendered a decision pretty 0:38:35.320 --> 0:38:37.799 soon after that, throwing out his conviction, which, of course 0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:40.120 the state then appealed to the Supreme Court. So then 0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:42.120 that was another seven months I think, pending in front 0:38:42.120 --> 0:38:45.319 of the Louisiana Supreme Court, which did not overturn the 0:38:45.320 --> 0:38:48.040 appellate court. Right, they declined to overturn the appellate court. 0:38:48.120 --> 0:38:52.440 So by June one, twenty fifteen, Roberts new trial was final. 0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:54.560 That meant he really was getting a new trial, so 0:38:54.600 --> 0:38:57.080 then he's pre trial again. In June of twenty fifteen, 0:38:57.200 --> 0:38:59.600 on the rape case, we approached the district attorneys. We said, 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:02.520 this is a case you should absolutely dismiss. It's clear 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:04.600 At wasn't him. The whole thing is a mess. You 0:39:04.600 --> 0:39:07.400 should absolutely dismiss it. And the district attorney's response to 0:39:07.440 --> 0:39:09.920 that was, he's welcome to take a play if he 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:12.160 wants to do it, and he complete to anything, we 0:39:12.239 --> 0:39:14.040 don't really mind. They were fine with him being out 0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:15.680 of prison. They just had to have them convicted of 0:39:15.680 --> 0:39:18.719 something in their minds. So then we moved to get 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.680 the judge to remove herself from the case, the judge 0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:24.720 who had denied him relief previously, because at that point 0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:27.440 they revealed a memo in their file they didn't even 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:30.040 reveal to us while we were challenging Robert's conviction that 0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:32.520 proved exactly what Robert had been saying since two thousand 0:39:32.560 --> 0:39:35.440 and six, which is that Leicester Jones was asked to 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:38.640 testify at Robert's trial by the prosecutor that he knew 0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:41.040 Robert Jones, and Leicester Jones said to the prosecutor, no, 0:39:41.080 --> 0:39:42.759 I'm not going to do it. I don't know him. 0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:46.920 Those statements that the police kicked out of me were 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:49.880 not true. So the only connection they ever had between 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:53.160 Lester and Robert with these statements by Lester Jones. Leicester 0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:55.440 told Robert, and Robert filed that stuff in court in 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.360 two thousand and six, and you know in an affidavit 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:00.680 and Lessons came and testified in in two six for 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:03.480 Robert when he was basically a pro sa litigant. I 0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:06.080 didn't know Robert Jones. Police made me say I did. 0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:09.120 I didn't know him, and I told the prosecutor that 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.719 before trial. At Robert's trial, at his rape trial, where 0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:15.279 the prosecutor spent the entire closing argument saying that they 0:40:15.280 --> 0:40:17.960 were friends, they know each other, Lester used to lend 0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:20.719 Robert his car. That was his closing argument, after the 0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:22.520 man had said I don't know Robert Jones, and there 0:40:22.560 --> 0:40:25.439 was no evidence entered at trial that they knew each other, 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:28.160 and Robert had said that there's there's a Brady violation. 0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:30.759 Here is sculptory information that should have been turned over, 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:33.120 which is that Leicester Jones told the prosecutors he didn't 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:35.799 know me, and of course when he was pro say 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:37.560 in two thousand and six and seven, had ignored it, 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:40.400 and when we brought his case back to court, we 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:42.560 had added that. We said, you know, in addition to 0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:44.920 all the other stuff we found, here's the evidence that 0:40:45.000 --> 0:40:48.000 Leicester Jones told the prosecutors. That's Brady. That is sculptory 0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:50.040 information for Robert favorable. The jury should have heard that 0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:53.239 Ester didn't know Robert, right, because the crimes all happened 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:54.920 in Leicester's car and he's got all the jury that's 0:40:54.960 --> 0:40:58.120 an exculpatory fact. The prosecutor owed that to the defense, 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:01.080 and when we were on the case all through the courts, 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.520 the prosecutor's like, ah, this, you know, this, this sudden, 0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:06.600 made up thing that Lester Jones said about not knowing 0:41:06.680 --> 0:41:11.000 Robert is unbelievable. And the courts repeatedly rejected that part 0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:14.360 of Robert's challenge. And in the DA's files a memo 0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:17.080 confirming the conversation that Lester Jones had had with the 0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:20.240 prosecutor the day before Robert Jones's trial, telling the prosecutor 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:22.799 he didn't know Robert Jones. And they turned that over 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:25.360 to us after we'd managed to win Robert's case, and 0:41:25.400 --> 0:41:27.759 at that point we said, you cannot be trusted. This 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.920 DA's office cannot be trusted. And the judge who had 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:33.560 denied Robert relief was actually a DA for some of 0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:36.000 the part of the time that Robert's case was being 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:37.839 litigated in two thousand and six and two thousand and seven, 0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:40.080 and we said at this point that memo was in 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:42.200 one of her files, one of her ada's didn't turn 0:41:42.239 --> 0:41:45.319 that over while arguing that Lester Jones was lying that 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:47.680 he didn't know Robert in post conviction like no one, 0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:49.800 no one can be trusted. We need a new judge. Ultimately, 0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:52.280 we didn't ask the das to recuse themselves yet, although 0:41:52.280 --> 0:41:53.960 we may have got there if they had continued what 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:56.960 they were doing in the pre trial case. So that's 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.799 when we got a new judge on the case who said, yes, 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:01.479 first of all, I'm going to give this man bail 0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:04.160 because's pretty clear he's probably not going to get convicted again, 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:06.759 and that's a factor that you consider. And I'm going 0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:08.200 to kick the old judge off the case because she 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:09.960 could be a witness in why it took so long 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.279 to disclose this memo, and so on and so forth right. 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:14.560 That's also when we fought the motion to barn and 0:42:14.600 --> 0:42:17.200 reprosecuting him just because of the decades of misconduct at 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:20.520 this point, and so because because of Judge let him 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:23.000 out on bail, he didn't have to take a plead, 0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:25.040 which a lot of it is that people do to 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:27.080 bring these wrongful conviction cases to an end just so 0:42:27.120 --> 0:42:29.200 they can come home, especially if they have kids. You know, 0:42:29.239 --> 0:42:31.720 we have had several clients you've done that. But because 0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:33.360 we've got already won on my a new trial, he 0:42:33.440 --> 0:42:36.120 was out on bail, so he was able to stare 0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:37.759 out of the DA and the dabling first, and he 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:40.080 dropped all the charges in January of this year, on. 0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:50.480 His forty fourth birthday. 0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:58.040 So they dropped the charges on your birthday. You'd been 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:00.680 out for how long at the time that the charges 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:01.240 were dropped? 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:04.759 A year over? 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:05.080 Yeah? 0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:09.759 Yeah, So what happened? Did Emily call you and say 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:11.080 this is it? 0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:11.239 Like? 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:12.279 How did you find out? 0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:13.839 Remember that night? 0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:14.319 Yeah? 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:18.479 He did describe that moment, how it happened. Who broke 0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:19.520 the good news? 0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:21.120 Richard? 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:23.120 Richard, let me have that privilege. 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:27.239 Emily brought the good news. She she called me, what 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:27.680 you say? 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:33.120 She said that She told me how the process was 0:43:33.160 --> 0:43:35.080 going to go, and you know, everything that we had 0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:37.440 to go through the process, but they was going to 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:39.959 drop the charge. They called her and I said, wow, 0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:41.040 this is crazy. 0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:43.759 To be clear, two days before they asked him if 0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:45.040 you wanted to play against. 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:48.080 Right Actually yeah, they called she. I also received a 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:51.080 call in regards to another plea. We discussed that that 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:54.200 everything was off the tape. I'm gonna fight these people 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:58.480 head nil too and everything with all the five. 0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:00.160 Of my spirit. I'm gonna fight them. I don't that 0:44:00.200 --> 0:44:01.560 you don't even talk to me about. 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:03.640 How long was that phone call. 0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:05.520 We were in the middle of a multi day hearing 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:07.319 at the time, but it wasn't just like, you know, 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:09.319 all of a sudden out of the blue. So we 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:11.480 were at the end of a long day in court, 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:13.840 preparing for the next day in court. We were going 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:16.759 to have some fun witnesses, both Richard and I are 0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:19.760 kind of looking forward to and they called that evening 0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:22.239 and you know, to be to be fair to the 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.600 Assistant district's attorney, he is the one we had been 0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:28.319 talking to and he had recommended that resolution to his 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:30.920 boss and I had ultimately got approval and he was 0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:33.719 very He's a professional guy. So he and I talked 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:35.880 for a minute, and he guaranteed me that it was 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:37.440 not something that was still up in the air. It 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:39.600 had been done, and that they were calling him the 0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:42.080 victim to tell her that it would be happening, not 0:44:42.160 --> 0:44:43.920 to ask a permission for it to happen, and so 0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:46.920 we just knew that had to get done before before. 0:44:47.080 --> 0:44:50.360 So we had a day then of not being in court, 0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:52.799 and then we went back the next day. 0:44:53.160 --> 0:44:55.480 So, Emily, is there anything you'd rather do for a living? 0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:59.359 How how satisfying was that day? How much joy did 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:00.319 you get from that? 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:02.120 I mean, the Robert Jones day? 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:02.719 Quite a lot. 0:45:03.680 --> 0:45:05.600 Now, My problem is I can't think of anything else 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:07.600 I'd rather do for a living. And that's so, that 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:12.040 is it's hard, but the anger, right, I am very, 0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:14.920 very angry about what happened to Robert. And I'm more 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:16.400 angry than he is because I have not had to 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:18.719 deal with my anger in a prison where it would 0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:23.200 only destroy me. So I still feel shame and horrified 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:25.560 by what they did to him and what good people 0:45:25.680 --> 0:45:28.479 allowed to happen on their watch, too, And I think 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:32.760 that that is it's very that is a very anger 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:36.960 is and energy. Right, it's a very motivating force. But 0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:41.279 it's real, right, I feel when I see people who 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:44.319 were involved, it's I can't be nice to them. I 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:46.600 can't think you're okay because you let that happen. 0:45:46.960 --> 0:45:49.919 It's not okay. There's nothing okay about it. I don't 0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:54.160 know how people go so far wrong that they lose 0:45:54.440 --> 0:45:57.839 their humanity and they you know, even though in this 0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:00.040 line of work, you and I see it over and 0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:03.719 over again, but it's still just doesn't add up to me. 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:05.839 I don't. I don't get it. I don't. I can't 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:08.040 relate to it. I can't. I can't sugar color. And 0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:11.040 it's weird because the exgonneries are much better at it 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:11.520 than we are. 0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:13.160 Great because we haven't had to deal with it. 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:18.600 They right, they find this grace which is beautiful and inspiring. 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:20.640 I guess you're right, though for us, I never thought 0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:24.200 of it that way. For us, this continual state of 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:28.839 anger that we find ourselves in drives us forward, and 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:31.239 so that works for us, and I guess that's just 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:31.880 the way it is. 0:46:32.200 --> 0:46:34.040 I do want to say that the problem I think, 0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:36.560 and the thing that maybe makes me most angry about 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:39.200 Robert's case is I do see exactly how all that happen, 0:46:39.280 --> 0:46:41.840 and I do see people that I know and people 0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:44.759 who have made other good decisions in their lives, and 0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:48.520 I think that the normality, in some ways, like the 0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:51.759 US abnormality, the extreme version of what happens to Robert 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:57.399 is horrifying, But actually it's so bloody normal, like all 0:46:57.520 --> 0:46:59.799 of those people and those players, and that system works 0:46:59.800 --> 0:47:01.840 that every day. And I think maybe the reason I 0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:05.359 find his case most upsetting is I can see how 0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:08.200 each of those decisions were made, and how or not made, 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:10.840 or how all of those things didn't get done that 0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:12.600 needed to be done, and how no one had time 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:15.040 to pay attention, and how somebody assumed this, and somebody 0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:17.400 assumed that, and somebody thought they weren't really breaking the rules, 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:19.160 with the exception of the one thing that I think 0:47:19.200 --> 0:47:21.880 screwed everything up, which was knowingly presenting a lie to 0:47:21.960 --> 0:47:24.359 the grand jury. Other than that, I see how that 0:47:24.400 --> 0:47:27.040 train went, and I think I see it a lot. 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:28.960 Yeah, I see it a lot too. I mean, this 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:33.440 is a particularly crazy case and a particularly backwards and 0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:36.279 corrupt system in this state and city that we're in 0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:39.640 right now, New Orleans, Louisiana. But at the end of 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:46.640 the day, Robert, you're here and that is ultimately the 0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:50.520 great part of this story. And you've now reconnected with 0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:52.960 your family. I know your beautiful daughter was out with 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:56.239 us last night, and the evidence would show from having 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:58.239 seen her last night that you did a pretty remarkable 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:02.000 job of being a responsible even from being hundreds of 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:06.160 miles away locked up, you never lost sight of those responsibilities, 0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:08.279 which is extremely admirable. 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:10.200 Two those three of his kids as well, and two 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:12.560 of them live further away. But he's been an amazing 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:13.680 father to his children. 0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:15.799 How are the kids, all of them doing their kid 0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:16.799 that's a miracle too. 0:48:17.160 --> 0:48:19.320 Yeah, right, although all of them doing well. 0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:22.480 One of the main reasons, like I said, I just 0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:25.719 re educated myself and I started understanding the world that 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:27.960 I lived in, in the world most people live in. 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:31.880 Is that statistically wise, they say that you know, generally 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.400 whit when your father, especially a young black father, when 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:37.440 they go to prison, that generally their children follow yep. 0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:42.600 And me understanding that from being educated, I see that 0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:44.600 wasn't gonna happen to my kids. I wasn't gonna liow 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:47.040 that happen to my kids. So you know that forced 0:48:47.040 --> 0:48:48.799 me or compelled me in the sense this guy like 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:51.160 made sure they was on the straight path too. So 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:53.319 that was one of the things outside of just having 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:56.480 a responsibilities, having a love for your own children, but 0:48:56.520 --> 0:48:59.600 to make sure to make sure that these don't follow 0:48:59.640 --> 0:49:03.239 that those statistics. And my thing is, you know, and 0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:06.799 I tell people this all the time that and I 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:09.719 know it's well yourself, you'll get frustrated about it, and 0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:13.440 y'all get angry, and you should be. And my angring 0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:17.040 in frustrations about the situation. I think, like you said, 0:49:17.080 --> 0:49:19.480 we kind of like look at it different. I don't 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:23.680 feel like justice l being served until the system is 0:49:24.239 --> 0:49:27.279 fixed and to the point where you can't do it 0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:29.480 to nobody else, you know what I'm saying, Well, you 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:32.680 can't really and I'm not saying that the system actually 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:35.440 be perfect, but they got things here, especially here in 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:38.920 New Orleans, that they got processes, you know that that 0:49:38.960 --> 0:49:42.200 can happen, that that system can actually be fixed because 0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:45.960 those decisions that they make and they're end up to 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:51.319 a practice of law, this silliness or foodness or this 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:55.040 no care for human life scisions that they make really 0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:57.840 affect people lives, you know, they think about all the 0:49:57.920 --> 0:50:01.239 years that hard knic and then you they have another administration, 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:04.680 then you have canders. Ever, all these hundreds and hundreds 0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:10.360 of people that you set in the prison, innocent or not. 0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:12.280 But for the most part of those who are innocent, 0:50:12.400 --> 0:50:17.160 when you make decisions to do that, you're affecting their children, lives, 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:21.000 their mother lives, their sisters, their brothers, their family, their friends. 0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:24.440 You change the dynamics of those people family, and you 0:50:24.560 --> 0:50:27.040 discard things. You know, you discard things when you take 0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:30.600 that man from out the household, that male figure from 0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:32.880 out the household that people have a lot of respect 0:50:32.880 --> 0:50:35.239 for and a lot of love. You have kids go 0:50:35.320 --> 0:50:39.279 off into different directions, the sisters, their brothers, their aunts. 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:42.480 They changes things, you know, their mother, you know, And 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:44.799 my mother's a strong woman. She has grown because she 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:47.960 dealt with a lot, She lost a lot. She dealt 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:49.799 with my father's dead, she deald with my brother dead, 0:50:49.880 --> 0:50:51.600 and she had to deal with the fact that I 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:54.400 was gonna for a crime that she knew how to commit, 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.520 and she had to deal with that that way that 0:50:57.640 --> 0:50:59.279 weighs heavily own her. 0:50:59.320 --> 0:51:00.000 You know what I'm saying. 0:51:00.480 --> 0:51:03.319 Those decisions affected a lot of that changed a lot 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:06.319 of lives, and that's the thing, that's one of the 0:51:06.360 --> 0:51:08.120 key things, and that's what I that's why I fight, 0:51:08.160 --> 0:51:10.239 That's why I fight the way I fight. You lend 0:51:10.280 --> 0:51:14.160 the systems anything tools what's right, that's that's all, that's 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:16.600 all I want, That's how I feel. That's how justice 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:20.680 serves me in the sense of fixing that system so 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:22.439 they wouldn't be able to do it to nobody else. 0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:24.279 I do want to have you talk a little bit 0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:25.400 about your art. 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:28.759 Or one of the things I do with I pain 0:51:28.920 --> 0:51:31.760 issues in regards to like social justice issues. 0:51:32.120 --> 0:51:33.520 I pain issues that deal with that. 0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:37.600 Now I feel like, oh, it's another way, another area 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:39.920 that I feel like it can be effective. When I 0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:43.480 do a piece of art, I'm all like, hopefully that 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:47.120 you can look at that particular expression and over a 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.239 period of time, or if you just look at it 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:52.440 every day, whatever, that it actually can change your perception 0:51:53.000 --> 0:51:56.120 about this particular issue, that expression that I'm trying to 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:58.600 conven to you. And if I know, if you can 0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:01.560 change the way you think about then ultimately continue the 0:52:01.600 --> 0:52:03.520 way you act about something. 0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:05.120 So that's what I kind of like do my art. 0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:08.440 I've seen it and it's beautiful. Every painting has an 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:14.000 element of your philosophy right of social justice and of 0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:18.319 a strong viewpoint of right and wrong, and that it 0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:21.480 really hit me hard. I know you're doing five different 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.879 things every day in terms of work and building your 0:52:25.040 --> 0:52:27.879 new life. But talk for a second, if you would, 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:30.160 about the Freedom Foundation and what it is and how 0:52:30.200 --> 0:52:31.240 people can get involved. 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.560 The Freedom Foundation is a nonprofit organization that I co 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:38.600 founded with Daniel Rito and Jeron Morgan. Well, actually it's 0:52:38.640 --> 0:52:43.640 created to mentor the you and to give them directions 0:52:43.880 --> 0:52:46.680 so they wouldn't find themselves in the situation like we 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:49.799 even though we didn't committ these particular crime, but we 0:52:49.920 --> 0:52:53.600 still became part of the massive incarceration problem that's happened 0:52:53.600 --> 0:52:57.000 in this country. So we kind of like mentor them 0:52:57.040 --> 0:53:00.879 by giving them our experiences and allowing them helping them 0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:04.160 acquire skill set, then it can prevent them from you know, 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.000 going to commit crimes and hanging out with the wrong 0:53:07.560 --> 0:53:11.000 crew of people and falling victim to the system. 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:13.280 You know, is there a Freedom Foundation website? 0:53:13.320 --> 0:53:15.439 Yeah, freedom Foundation dot org. 0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:20.399 Okay, so that's Freedom Foundation m Foundation dot org. 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:23.080 And that's that's exactly what it means. It mean like free. 0:53:23.000 --> 0:53:25.680 Them, double meaning I like it so, Robert, we have 0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:29.000 a tradition here at Wrong for conviction, which is that 0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:31.880 we turn the mic over to you, the star of 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:35.040 the show, the Axennery, for any closing thoughts that you 0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:35.640 want to share. 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:39.799 The essence of this particular story, of my story, as 0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:41.960 I always tell a lot of people, is that you 0:53:42.000 --> 0:53:45.520 look at all of the obstacles or the odds that 0:53:45.560 --> 0:53:49.200 I had to overcome throughout my childhood through I mean, 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:52.520 do now, and it should be able to inspire you 0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:56.480 to withstand and knowing that if you stand, I mean, 0:53:56.520 --> 0:53:58.960 if you can put whatever in your mind, you can 0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:03.600 stay determined and focus on whatever your aim is, whether 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:06.120 whatever it is, no matter what you go through, whatever 0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:09.400 life throws at you, if you just keep on pushing forward, 0:54:10.120 --> 0:54:13.239 then I think that you can overcome anything. That's the 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:15.680 essence of what I want people to get for my 0:54:15.760 --> 0:54:17.640 story out of you know, like I said, I know 0:54:18.920 --> 0:54:21.160 what happened to me is dramatic, and what happened to 0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:23.640 a lot of design the reasons so dramatic, and I 0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:25.000 mean can it touched people? 0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:25.880 I mean it hurt me. 0:54:26.320 --> 0:54:28.560 So I know hear a lot of people, but for 0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:31.719 the most part, I don't want people to feel sorry 0:54:31.800 --> 0:54:33.600 for me, you know, and I know they do either 0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:36.160 have empathy, but I don't want you to feel sorry 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:38.480 for me. I want you to just use my story 0:54:39.280 --> 0:54:41.759 as an inspiration of you, whether. 0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:43.120 If you just just think about it. 0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:45.800 A lot of high school dropouts, you know, of a 0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:48.560 kid that thinking that he can't he can't overcome this, 0:54:48.680 --> 0:54:51.960 or I can't go to this particular profession because I 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:52.960 didn't have an education. 0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:55.000 I mean, I know what it is, because I didn't. 0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:58.360 I didn't have an education, and I had a focus, 0:54:58.360 --> 0:54:59.880 and I was determined to get an education. 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:00.400 I was. 0:55:00.600 --> 0:55:03.120 I had a focus and determined to get out of prison. 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:06.239 And with the help of the instant projecting people with 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:09.080 that particular hut yourself and other people that's on this 0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:10.239 particular route. 0:55:10.760 --> 0:55:13.000 I got out. I got out of prison. The eyes 0:55:13.040 --> 0:55:14.000 will stacked against me. 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:16.560 So I just want people to use this particular story 0:55:16.600 --> 0:55:19.359 and let them know that anything they did facing in life, 0:55:19.360 --> 0:55:20.239 that you can do coming. 0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:22.719 But you gotta be you gotta be fearless in it. 0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:25.919 You know, just kind of face it, head up, don't 0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:27.680 dug it this uncle straight at it. 0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:30.040 And you not only got out of prison. But you 0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:33.600 did it on your terms, and it took an incredible 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:39.000 amount of courage and perseverance. But you're here and I 0:55:39.080 --> 0:55:42.239 appreciate you you being here, and I want to thank 0:55:42.440 --> 0:55:47.319 both of my amazing guests today. Robert Jones twenty three 0:55:47.400 --> 0:55:50.560 and a half years in prison for criming and commit 0:55:51.000 --> 0:55:55.239 and coming out swinging strong and commit. 0:55:55.000 --> 0:55:55.880 It still swing. 0:55:57.880 --> 0:56:01.440 And the one and only for some nature, Emily Ma, 0:56:02.360 --> 0:56:06.600 the fearless leader of the Innocence Project New Orleans ipn O, 0:56:07.480 --> 0:56:11.040 and please support their work I do. What is the 0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:13.160 website for the Innocence Project New. 0:56:13.120 --> 0:56:18.920 Orleans www dot ip dashno dot org give. 0:56:18.760 --> 0:56:22.000 Till it hurts. Thanks you've been listening to a very 0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:28.000 special episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm from New Orleans. 0:56:28.480 --> 0:56:30.879 Once again, thank you to my guest Robert Jones and Lyma. 0:56:31.360 --> 0:56:42.399 Thank you Jason, don't forget to. 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.399 Give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:46.400 It really helps. 0:56:46.840 --> 0:56:49.680 And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and 0:56:49.719 --> 0:56:52.439 I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.440 important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 0:56:56.520 --> 0:56:59.320 to Innocence project dot org to learn how to donate 0:56:59.440 --> 0:57:02.319 and get in. I'd like to thank our production team, 0:57:02.440 --> 0:57:05.359 Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show 0:57:05.440 --> 0:57:08.319 is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 0:57:08.680 --> 0:57:11.440 Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction 0:57:11.840 --> 0:57:15.840 and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with 0:57:15.920 --> 0:57:19.040 Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 0:57:19.080 --> 0:57:22.720 and association with Signal Company Number one