WEBVTT - Joe Henry and Mike Reid 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.196 --> 0:00:23.116 Joe Henry and Mike Read brought two distinct but complimentary 0:00:23.156 --> 0:00:27.116 legacies to their new collaborative album, Life and Times. Joe 0:00:27.196 --> 0:00:30.276 was a celebrated producer and songwriter known for his atmospheric, 0:00:30.436 --> 0:00:34.516 deeply literary approach to Americana. Over the decades, He's produced 0:00:34.516 --> 0:00:38.156 albums for artists like Solomon Burke, Bonnie Rait, and Elvis Costello, 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:40.756 while cracked in his own work that blurs the line 0:00:40.796 --> 0:00:44.276 between folk, jazz, and rock. Mike Read, a former NFL 0:00:44.316 --> 0:00:47.836 defensive lineman turned Grammy winning country songwriter, has written hits 0:00:47.876 --> 0:00:49.836 like I Can't Make You Love Me and has long 0:00:49.876 --> 0:00:54.316 explored the tender spaces between strength and vulnerability. Their album 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:58.676 Life and Times captures conversations between two seasoned storytellers, their 0:00:58.756 --> 0:01:02.756 voices and perspectives interweaving across songs that examined memory, mortality, 0:01:03.116 --> 0:01:07.356 and the passage of time with unflinching honesty. On today's episode, 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:09.596 Bruce Helm talks to Joe Henry and Mike Read about 0:01:09.596 --> 0:01:12.436 how they developed a deep friendship over their shared love 0:01:12.476 --> 0:01:15.996 of poetry at a songwriter's retreat. They also discussed the 0:01:16.076 --> 0:01:19.236 artists and songs that first drew them to songwriting, and 0:01:19.276 --> 0:01:22.076 they reflect on their individual creative processes and how they 0:01:22.196 --> 0:01:27.716 found new ways to inspire each other's work. This is 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:37.516 broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's Bruce Hedlam with 0:01:37.636 --> 0:02:02.076 Mike Reid and Joe Henry. 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:08.356 I Show from the Grave. It's the show lumberd On. 0:02:09.356 --> 0:02:14.276 It's curtain and ladders climbing up with a dawn that 0:02:14.596 --> 0:02:19.356 breaks like a heart, and house like a yawn of 0:02:19.436 --> 0:02:25.716 the stretching and wild rolling sea, ever so fully. 0:02:26.796 --> 0:02:31.876 Cafe's with a ghost who sits down beside me with 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:36.436 tea and with toast in a rattle and sleeper. Carn 0:02:37.436 --> 0:02:41.876 Trason the coast through the darkness between. 0:02:41.636 --> 0:02:42.156 You and me. 0:02:45.036 --> 0:02:47.116 Flag a Man down way. 0:02:47.356 --> 0:02:48.796 Comes back this way. 0:02:49.636 --> 0:02:53.796 I'll cut run it over, and there's hell to pay 0:02:54.876 --> 0:02:56.956 for all we've been giving. 0:02:57.036 --> 0:03:02.756 And did not give away. Flag down a man going back. 0:03:05.316 --> 0:03:07.036 Maybe time yet we. 0:03:07.156 --> 0:03:31.716 Can try. 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:22.716 Well. 0:03:22.796 --> 0:03:29.156 The barreling in couples and buffalo phones wave to the 0:03:29.276 --> 0:03:34.396 cheering to those who would call with a look out below. 0:03:34.796 --> 0:03:39.556 I'm good luck to you all. Just as they drive 0:03:39.796 --> 0:03:40.756 the nails. 0:03:40.516 --> 0:03:47.156 And hold back the years into keeping the lid close 0:03:47.796 --> 0:03:52.116 for the roll on its side. Well as she goes 0:03:52.956 --> 0:03:56.236 it's a drop in the bucket heard of her life, 0:03:56.236 --> 0:04:01.076 fanst we know he see is how real love begins. 0:04:03.436 --> 0:04:07.356 Flag a man down when he comes back this way, 0:04:08.196 --> 0:04:09.556 our plup on and. 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:15.236 Over and their hell de pay all we've been giving 0:04:15.636 --> 0:04:18.156 and not give away. 0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:25.716 Flag down a man going bad, Maybe timing, and we 0:04:25.796 --> 0:04:48.276 can try. 0:04:51.116 --> 0:04:55.036 Well we have in our favor the time at our 0:04:55.196 --> 0:05:00.196 backs were chasing our tails, and I could train on 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:03.316 the tracks, steaming and blowing. 0:05:03.956 --> 0:05:05.636 It's a most awful life. 0:05:06.396 --> 0:05:08.836 Of the too many words we have. 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:13.276 I could rest here. 0:05:13.596 --> 0:05:18.156 On the rails for the night. I can go with 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:19.236 me in. 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:23.236 The face of such flight of the engine that cut 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:25.636 all and on, not just. 0:05:27.236 --> 0:05:29.836 Carry us. Saw the way home. 0:05:32.236 --> 0:05:36.196 Fag a man down when he comes, stand in his way, 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:41.196 I would fall and old. And there's held the pain 0:05:42.276 --> 0:05:46.916 for all we even giving and did not give away. 0:05:47.676 --> 0:05:50.316 Flight down a man go in by. 0:05:52.876 --> 0:06:00.516 Maybe time yet we can try, Maybe time yet holding, 0:06:00.636 --> 0:06:04.636 Maybe time yet over there, Maybe time. 0:06:04.436 --> 0:06:25.876 Yet, time yet we can try. 0:06:29.916 --> 0:06:30.716 It's beautiful. 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:31.556 Thanks you. 0:06:31.676 --> 0:06:38.436 So we're welcoming to great songwriters, even legendary songwriters. Mike Reid, 0:06:39.436 --> 0:06:43.196 who a dozen number one country hits. 0:06:44.916 --> 0:06:47.636 You know I've been told Bruce it varies from twenty 0:06:47.716 --> 0:06:52.276 down to a dozen, and you never know what publication 0:06:52.356 --> 0:06:55.156 they're referring to, so I guess maybe that has a 0:06:55.196 --> 0:06:57.836 lot to do with it. I have feelings about Number 0:06:57.836 --> 0:07:01.436 one records too, that you know, they're not only a 0:07:01.476 --> 0:07:04.956 handful of them are really authentic hits. And when I 0:07:04.996 --> 0:07:09.676 say hit, I even sort of regard that slightly differently. 0:07:09.876 --> 0:07:13.796 To me, it's whatever song impacts people's lives, whatever they 0:07:13.876 --> 0:07:18.156 take into their lives, and sometimes commercial hit songs are 0:07:18.756 --> 0:07:21.636 a little more than distraction. That's fine, you know, if 0:07:21.636 --> 0:07:25.396 you can write something that speaks to someone's life, good 0:07:25.396 --> 0:07:25.716 for you. 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:27.756 Just tell me you cash the checks? 0:07:28.036 --> 0:07:28.876 Ah I did. 0:07:30.836 --> 0:07:33.436 That's a very very fair thing for you to say, 0:07:33.516 --> 0:07:36.196 by the way, Yes, I had when it came to that. 0:07:36.476 --> 0:07:38.676 Yeah, yeah, you know all the number ones. 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:41.476 That one well, well, you know, the terrible thing for 0:07:41.516 --> 0:07:45.276 me to say is that that's sort of principal thinking 0:07:45.436 --> 0:07:47.436 is an affordable commodity. 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:51.636 So you had to be careful not take yourself too seriously. 0:07:51.716 --> 0:07:53.316 I think maybe what you should say from now on, 0:07:53.596 --> 0:07:56.556 it's not the number ones, it's the zeros. 0:07:57.556 --> 0:07:59.356 Tell you if you want a shorter answer, just ask 0:07:59.436 --> 0:08:00.876 me how many number ones I've had. 0:08:02.796 --> 0:08:05.916 Yeah, but I would ask you how many impactful songs 0:08:05.956 --> 0:08:11.196 you've written, Absolutely, songs that have that are deeply woven 0:08:11.316 --> 0:08:13.316 within the fabric of people's lives. 0:08:13.516 --> 0:08:16.756 I mean, isn't han Jo isn't that sort of Well 0:08:16.796 --> 0:08:17.516 that is the hope. 0:08:17.796 --> 0:08:19.196 Yeah, that is the hope. 0:08:19.756 --> 0:08:21.836 And I think even if you're you know, Bruce, if 0:08:21.876 --> 0:08:28.276 you're a commercial quote whatever that means songwriter in Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah, 0:08:28.276 --> 0:08:31.196 there's an element, I suppose where it's the business, there's 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:33.796 an element you have to be careful about the cynicism 0:08:33.876 --> 0:08:37.436 of money. But I'd have no reason to think those 0:08:37.596 --> 0:08:41.396 kids writing songs now don't want to do the same 0:08:41.436 --> 0:08:44.236 thing that Joe Henry has done, which is impact people's 0:08:44.236 --> 0:08:46.356 lives with the words and his music. 0:08:46.676 --> 0:08:50.116 Well, you jumped in and introduced Joe for me. 0:08:50.276 --> 0:08:50.876 Yeah. Good. 0:08:50.996 --> 0:08:53.596 When I mentioned Joe to people, I always say a 0:08:53.596 --> 0:08:56.476 great producer of many many know Elvis Costello, Bonnie Ray, 0:08:56.716 --> 0:09:00.796 Alan Toussant, But as a songwriter I think was Roseanne 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:03.356 Cash said you're the one who keeps raising the bar 0:09:03.476 --> 0:09:04.236 for the rest of us. 0:09:04.276 --> 0:09:07.116 So well, that's high praise coming from her. 0:09:07.276 --> 0:09:08.916 Absolutely, and you've done it again. 0:09:09.116 --> 0:09:13.436 You guys got together to produce this album Life and Times. 0:09:13.836 --> 0:09:16.876 We just heard the first song, Sleeper Car. Can you 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:19.836 tell me how this came together as. 0:09:19.676 --> 0:09:22.996 Far as how we came together to begin working at all. 0:09:23.556 --> 0:09:27.516 We found ourselves both part of the so called faculty 0:09:27.676 --> 0:09:31.996 at a songwriting camp in Nashville in August of twenty 0:09:32.036 --> 0:09:35.236 twenty two that my dear friend Rodney Crowell runs. 0:09:35.756 --> 0:09:37.876 I have to stop you there because that sounds like 0:09:37.916 --> 0:09:39.076 an insane amount of fun. 0:09:39.636 --> 0:09:43.116 Well, let me just say it's intense work because people 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:46.436 come from far and wide and they pay no small 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:49.436 sum of money to be there in hopes of learning 0:09:49.476 --> 0:09:52.356 something that I don't know that can be taught. So 0:09:52.436 --> 0:09:55.276 I have some high anxiety. In fact, you. 0:09:55.276 --> 0:09:57.836 Don't say a songwriting can be taught. 0:09:58.036 --> 0:10:00.236 I like what Rodney says. I don't know if it 0:10:00.276 --> 0:10:03.636 can be taught. I believe it can be encouraged. And 0:10:03.716 --> 0:10:06.316 I think people who have anything going on, and it 0:10:06.316 --> 0:10:09.276 doesn't have to be something that I respond to, Is 0:10:09.316 --> 0:10:12.156 it something that they are responding to. I think what 0:10:12.596 --> 0:10:18.676 we can teach is refinement and strategies around just personally speaking, 0:10:19.276 --> 0:10:22.956 just getting into motion, because I think that's the biggest 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:27.236 obstacle for people is just beginning, and they're all kinds 0:10:27.236 --> 0:10:29.916 of things that I've learned to do for myself over years, 0:10:30.036 --> 0:10:33.676 just to trick myself into some kind of motion, because 0:10:33.676 --> 0:10:38.036 when that happens, invariably I encounter something that I can 0:10:38.076 --> 0:10:38.516 work with. 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:40.036 What are those tricks? 0:10:40.356 --> 0:10:42.676 This is going to sound over the obvious, but if 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:46.276 I'm sitting in a hotel room, for instance, or in 0:10:46.316 --> 0:10:48.636 a moving vehicle, as I was when I wrote a 0:10:48.756 --> 0:10:52.756 lyric just the other day, I just start somewhere describing 0:10:52.916 --> 0:10:57.876 something that I see, and somehow just a descriptive gesture 0:10:58.356 --> 0:11:00.996 will lead to you know, what's the response to that 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:04.596 thing that I see? And who is that character responding? 0:11:04.636 --> 0:11:06.316 And next thing, you know, you're in the kind of 0:11:06.356 --> 0:11:08.276 in the middle of some kind of a story. It 0:11:08.356 --> 0:11:11.516 might not be a line your narrative, but something starts 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:14.676 to emerge if you pay attention to it. And I 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:17.636 just encourage people in that case to stay in the 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:21.676 seance of it as long as possible before you're ever 0:11:21.756 --> 0:11:25.036 thinking about whether it has any use to you or not. 0:11:25.196 --> 0:11:28.316 You know, John Cage said, don't confuse the creative mind 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:31.476 with the analytical mind. They both have a purpose, but 0:11:31.516 --> 0:11:34.796 they're not the same animal. I like to try to stay, 0:11:35.276 --> 0:11:37.316 you know, in that part of the river that's sweeping 0:11:37.356 --> 0:11:40.716 you away for as long as possible before I get 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:43.876 up and climb out onto the bank and start looking 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:47.156 down at it and evaluating it, because once that's happened, 0:11:47.396 --> 0:11:50.316 you're not being swept away, You're not being seduced any longer. 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:54.236 How long can the seance be sustained? So you're just 0:11:54.356 --> 0:11:57.596 spooling off raw fabric, and then it's quite easy in 0:11:57.636 --> 0:12:01.276 some regards to come back later to that raw fabric 0:12:01.316 --> 0:12:04.036 and then you know, fashion a pair of slacks out 0:12:04.036 --> 0:12:06.516 of them that you can walk around in. But that 0:12:06.596 --> 0:12:11.196 first generation of raw fabric is the thing that stymies 0:12:11.316 --> 0:12:13.756 most people. You know, how do you just get that 0:12:13.796 --> 0:12:16.636 wheel turning to begin with? And then you can decide, 0:12:16.716 --> 0:12:20.036 based on what kind of spools around you, where you 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:20.836 might go with it. 0:12:21.236 --> 0:12:24.036 You know, I would say, as someone who's been an 0:12:24.116 --> 0:12:26.316 editor his whole life, I think those animals are actually 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:30.356 enemies in the wild. And I've seen this particularly in 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:33.636 other editors, really brilliant editors I've worked with at The 0:12:33.636 --> 0:12:36.196 New York Times and elsewhere. They have to stop writing 0:12:37.396 --> 0:12:40.756 because the analytical part of it just overams for sure. 0:12:40.796 --> 0:12:43.316 I mean, if I find that voice, if I'm in 0:12:43.356 --> 0:12:47.236 the midst of writing anything in that first burst, if 0:12:47.276 --> 0:12:51.196 I find myself for a moment even wondering, you know, 0:12:51.556 --> 0:12:54.636 is this any good? Do I like it? Will my 0:12:54.676 --> 0:12:55.396 wife like it? 0:12:55.436 --> 0:12:55.756 Well? 0:12:56.196 --> 0:12:58.676 Anybody who cares about what I do like it. I'm 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:02.716 done for the day, or at least for that period 0:13:02.756 --> 0:13:06.316 of time, because I know I've taken myself completely out 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:10.476 of the stream, and it's easy to get there. It's 0:13:10.476 --> 0:13:13.476 easy to stay in that analytical, judgmental part of it. 0:13:13.636 --> 0:13:16.196 You know, how long can we stay free of judgment? 0:13:16.316 --> 0:13:20.276 I mean that's translatable to so many aspects of our lives, 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:22.276 as much I so frequently. 0:13:21.956 --> 0:13:23.436 Is I agree with Joe. 0:13:23.756 --> 0:13:26.036 I don't think it can be taught like in that 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:28.356 when Joe and I were at the Rodney's camp. You know, 0:13:28.436 --> 0:13:31.796 it's sort of like instructing or teaching people about the 0:13:31.876 --> 0:13:37.836 fact about the experience of their own lives. Stanislavsky said, 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:43.836 acting is behaving truthfully in imaginary circumstances. And it may 0:13:43.836 --> 0:13:47.396 be you don't have to have lived what you're writing, 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:50.276 but you have to. I think you have to understand 0:13:50.756 --> 0:13:54.556 the emotional atmosphere of the thing, you know, and very 0:13:54.596 --> 0:13:57.716 often I find in those camps, Joe, do you that 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:00.356 the people come and they think, you know, they're going 0:14:00.436 --> 0:14:05.156 to find some you know, some technical secret. Yeah, more 0:14:05.196 --> 0:14:08.556 complicated than just Hey, I'm sorry to tell you this, 0:14:08.636 --> 0:14:12.276 but writing and teaches writing. If you can't spend all day, 0:14:12.356 --> 0:14:15.556 I get that. But you can spend a chunk of 0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:19.676 every day addressing it. I don't care, you know, if 0:14:19.676 --> 0:14:22.436 it's fifteen twenty minutes. The more you get in the 0:14:22.476 --> 0:14:26.236 habit of sitting down. Mary Oliver writes a beautiful ideas 0:14:26.316 --> 0:14:29.236 about showing up for that part of you that desires 0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:32.916 to be given voice to I always tell young writers, 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:37.036 you know, talent commitment. They're fine, that's fine, but they're 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:40.396 not quite enough. You have to be compelled to show up. 0:14:40.956 --> 0:14:43.076 If you do that over the long haul, I think 0:14:43.116 --> 0:14:46.676 things begin to happen you might not have thought would. 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:49.676 And you were very disciplined in your writing, weren't you. 0:14:49.916 --> 0:14:50.396 Yeah. 0:14:51.076 --> 0:14:53.996 I get up every morning and often Joe and I 0:14:54.036 --> 0:14:58.316 will text. He's in Maine, I'm in Nashville. We text 0:14:58.356 --> 0:15:01.916 over the first wonderful cup of coffee, which is the 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:04.196 great sublime moment for both of us. 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:05.716 I think, and. 0:15:06.716 --> 0:15:10.156 Then I will yeah, I will see what's on my mind. 0:15:10.236 --> 0:15:15.476 But now lately I stay with him the piano because 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:19.276 as an old person, my hands have a tendency to 0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:22.756 want to go to comfortable, familiar places. So when Joe, 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:25.916 for example, when Joe sends me a lyric of words, 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:29.116 I will often print them and walk take a walk 0:15:29.996 --> 0:15:34.636 around the yard with them, or into a wooded area 0:15:34.716 --> 0:15:37.516 there around the house, and into nature. Get them out 0:15:37.556 --> 0:15:40.596 into nature, get them and I will speak them out 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:44.396 loud into nature, into the air to get the sound 0:15:44.436 --> 0:15:48.156 of them in the world. And then that helps me 0:15:49.476 --> 0:15:52.836 get a little closer to understanding what is the atmosphere 0:15:52.956 --> 0:15:57.076 these words are conveying, and then can I find what 0:15:57.196 --> 0:15:58.636 the musical sound might be. 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:00.676 You know, when I talk to you, Joe, and this 0:16:00.836 --> 0:16:04.116 was years ago, you would talk about using open tunings, 0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:06.756 different tunings, anything to get your hands out of. 0:16:06.676 --> 0:16:10.876 That yeah zone, anything to disorient me a little bit. 0:16:11.036 --> 0:16:13.556 Yeah, Mike, you've played piano for a very long time. 0:16:13.636 --> 0:16:15.076 Yeah, since I was a kid. 0:16:15.396 --> 0:16:17.996 How do you you can't well, you can't retune a piano, 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:20.116 but you really don't want to do that. Is there 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:23.956 something you do with the piano to try and defamiliarize 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:26.116 your your fingers with what you're doing. 0:16:26.276 --> 0:16:30.276 Can I show Joe this little thing, Bruce, This is 0:16:30.316 --> 0:16:33.236 what I do. And if someone's listening, they may because 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:36.996 we tend to sit down in an instrument. We you know, 0:16:37.036 --> 0:16:49.716 we're gonna maybe look for some kind of progression, some groove, might. 0:16:57.596 --> 0:16:59.396 All those things you know how to do. 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:02.876 So what I do is to get away from that 0:17:03.476 --> 0:17:06.836 is I imagine a room of four people, right, and 0:17:06.876 --> 0:17:10.516 no one is going to say anything until they absolutely 0:17:10.836 --> 0:17:16.956 have something undeniable to say. So we'll start with a note. 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:21.236 And this note for me might be silence, might represent silence. 0:17:23.436 --> 0:17:25.796 And this may go on in my little over that 0:17:25.876 --> 0:17:28.636 first cup of coffee for minutes, you know, four or 0:17:28.716 --> 0:17:37.116 five minutes until my left hand because that note is 0:17:37.156 --> 0:17:50.276 going to tell me to go somewhere. The two decidedly 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:55.836 different things. One resolves attention. This creates a little bit. 0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:02.796 So I start extremely small like that, very small, with 0:18:03.116 --> 0:18:07.276 very small elements. Maybe at that point then a melody. 0:18:07.396 --> 0:18:09.596 I have Joe's words in front of me. I may 0:18:10.196 --> 0:18:13.956 begin to hear the sound of what they might sound like, 0:18:14.596 --> 0:18:18.436 the voice driving them. And sometimes we'll write a verse 0:18:19.196 --> 0:18:22.916 not write a verse. I will discover a verse with 0:18:23.116 --> 0:18:26.516 just playing that one note or two notes. So that's 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:29.156 what I do to get away from those. And then 0:18:29.596 --> 0:18:41.516 if you go to too, you know, you'll eventually find 0:18:41.556 --> 0:18:44.156 your way back to something. But then I will go 0:18:44.236 --> 0:18:47.316 and say, okay, this is I don't I'm not a 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:50.396 mystic of any kind, you know, but I think Arthur Miller, 0:18:50.476 --> 0:18:53.236 the great playwright, referred to it as the hidden narrative. 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:56.556 You know, there is something that wants to be, that 0:18:56.756 --> 0:18:59.596 wants to come through, and I do my best, and 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:02.876 I usually fail. I do my best to stay out 0:19:02.876 --> 0:19:04.796 of the way of that and listen for it and 0:19:04.876 --> 0:19:10.476 try to hear it before I insist me into the proceedings. 0:19:10.596 --> 0:19:12.356 And you said there were four people in the room 0:19:13.076 --> 0:19:16.036 you started. We started with one, then you had the two, 0:19:16.476 --> 0:19:18.116 the two, and then the next. 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:20.236 There's three. 0:19:21.596 --> 0:19:23.356 Okay, you're not adding harmony, then. 0:19:23.716 --> 0:19:27.756 Well you may. It may be there's four notes. 0:19:27.836 --> 0:19:32.036 There four people who have decided I must speak. 0:19:32.076 --> 0:19:32.276 Now. 0:19:35.316 --> 0:19:42.796 Now at some point they're gonna they're gonna arrive at 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:48.476 some hopefully some reasonably agreeable conclusion. And so that you 0:19:48.556 --> 0:19:52.556 might get that may arrive at that. I mean it's 0:19:52.596 --> 0:19:55.036 a little thing that I do, and it could be 0:19:55.316 --> 0:19:58.116 very possibly. I spend too much time alone in my 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:03.716 little workroom, and I end up doing unnecessary things. I 0:20:03.836 --> 0:20:07.156 like small, small, small, small small. When I'm when I'm 0:20:07.236 --> 0:20:11.956 lost and confused, I think less less less less might 0:20:12.076 --> 0:20:12.956 be not more. 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:15.916 You know, I've learned some of those tricks from you 0:20:15.956 --> 0:20:18.196 know that that John Cage used to to do with 0:20:18.276 --> 0:20:22.436 word play. Uh and and people like William Burrow's kind 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:24.796 of picked up on it from Cage. I think, well, 0:20:24.836 --> 0:20:27.276 I'll just, you know, pick up you know, the nearest 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:30.716 book to me. There's always something close by, and just 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:33.716 open it at random and decide that at the top 0:20:33.796 --> 0:20:36.596 of the left hand page. You know, I have to 0:20:36.636 --> 0:20:40.156 incorporate a verb and a noun that I find one 0:20:40.236 --> 0:20:45.076 or the other, and just by insisting that I utilize it, 0:20:45.076 --> 0:20:48.596 it's going to suggest something, you know, And you can 0:20:48.636 --> 0:20:51.476 try as hard as you want. It's impossible to put 0:20:51.476 --> 0:20:54.676 two words together that mean nothing, because the mind is 0:20:54.796 --> 0:20:58.836 trained to find some kind of sense, some kind of 0:20:58.996 --> 0:21:03.276 gesture toward narrative in there. When you start looking for relationship, 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:07.716 you invariably find relationship. There's no such thing as no relationship, 0:21:08.356 --> 0:21:11.476 you know, even if it's complete what we would call chaos, 0:21:11.836 --> 0:21:14.636 that is a relationship to something interesting. 0:21:14.636 --> 0:21:17.676 You describe it that way, because I would say, and 0:21:17.716 --> 0:21:18.996 this is going to sound like an insult, and I 0:21:19.036 --> 0:21:22.076 don't mean it to be an insult. Your lyrics make 0:21:22.156 --> 0:21:27.436 the listener work a little harder. I think you're going, yeah, 0:21:27.476 --> 0:21:31.556 I know, like that's a bad thing. I want to 0:21:31.596 --> 0:21:32.116 hit d it. 0:21:33.396 --> 0:21:36.276 I think it's perfectly fine that that people are invited 0:21:36.716 --> 0:21:40.236 to be active as listeners. Almost every single night I 0:21:40.236 --> 0:21:42.156 play a show, I make a point of saying to 0:21:42.196 --> 0:21:44.916 an audience at the end of the night, listening is 0:21:44.956 --> 0:21:49.316 not a passive activity, and I appreciate anybody who brings 0:21:49.356 --> 0:21:54.436 their attention and time to bear. So yes, I expect 0:21:54.476 --> 0:21:57.396 that people, if they're paying attention to what I'm doing, 0:21:58.396 --> 0:22:01.116 they might have to work harder than they do when 0:22:01.116 --> 0:22:05.876 they engage other things. I don't know, but I I've 0:22:05.876 --> 0:22:10.396 had this conversation with Brad Meldal, the great pianist, who said, 0:22:10.436 --> 0:22:14.316 you know, you can't read Shakespeare without really bringing your 0:22:14.356 --> 0:22:17.756 full intellect there. You can't read Blake, you can't listen 0:22:17.796 --> 0:22:22.876 to Beethoven, you can't listen to Coltrane without bringing your 0:22:23.716 --> 0:22:28.796 real attention there, and that's part of what activates the process. 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:33.316 That's part of what makes music a vibrant connection between people. 0:22:33.756 --> 0:22:37.356 If I'm only broadcasting out, that just sounds like pure 0:22:37.356 --> 0:22:41.476 ego to me. The electrical current only is complete when 0:22:41.516 --> 0:22:44.996 it becomes a circular loop. If I'm not feeling something 0:22:45.076 --> 0:22:49.316 back from a listener, even if it feels abstract, even 0:22:49.316 --> 0:22:53.436 if I'm home alone, something activates me into believing that 0:22:53.476 --> 0:22:57.196 there's a vibrational element to what I've just written that 0:22:57.716 --> 0:23:00.996 does not just belong to me. I don't believe that 0:23:01.356 --> 0:23:05.116 I can alone have that experience. If it's buzzy to me, 0:23:05.796 --> 0:23:09.276 it's because I believe that there are other people who 0:23:09.116 --> 0:23:11.356 will catch that. If I push it. 0:23:11.276 --> 0:23:13.836 Forward, it's like lightning. It meets in the middle. 0:23:13.996 --> 0:23:17.396 Yeah, and I do think it's a mystical I sometimes 0:23:17.556 --> 0:23:20.916 am shy to talk about it in mystical terms, except 0:23:21.116 --> 0:23:22.516 that I just think that it is. 0:23:24.036 --> 0:23:25.916 We'll be back with more from Mike Read and Joe 0:23:25.916 --> 0:23:27.236 Henry after the break. 0:23:31.436 --> 0:23:35.356 So, as listeners, when you got together, what did you 0:23:35.396 --> 0:23:37.716 hear in each other's work that you thought would that 0:23:37.836 --> 0:23:40.476 this would be a fruitful partnership. 0:23:41.116 --> 0:23:44.196 I can answer that question Honestly, I have no idea 0:23:44.836 --> 0:23:46.996 when we met on that first day of this camp. 0:23:47.556 --> 0:23:52.116 We just, by happenstance found ourselves walking across the grass 0:23:52.116 --> 0:23:56.396 at Vanderbilt where this camp was hosted, and in line 0:23:56.436 --> 0:23:58.836 together it's the dining hall. Thus we sat at a 0:23:58.836 --> 0:24:02.796 table together, and we found ourselves really quickly. I didn't 0:24:02.796 --> 0:24:05.716 have one notion that Mike knew who I was in 0:24:05.756 --> 0:24:08.996 any sense, but we found ourselves really quickly talking about 0:24:09.756 --> 0:24:13.876 the poets that we love in common, and that connection 0:24:14.756 --> 0:24:18.476 was energizing to me to the point where in the 0:24:18.516 --> 0:24:21.676 subsequent days, every time there was a coffee break, I 0:24:21.756 --> 0:24:24.116 was looking for Mike. I was looking for this conversation 0:24:24.276 --> 0:24:28.716 to continue. Yet when we parted company, when everybody left 0:24:28.716 --> 0:24:32.156 the camp, we didn't communicate for a couple months. But 0:24:32.236 --> 0:24:34.916 one day, I've been visiting my dad in North Carolina, 0:24:34.956 --> 0:24:37.236 and I was stripping the bed before we left, and 0:24:37.636 --> 0:24:41.196 I heard a couple of sort of unspool in my mind, 0:24:41.876 --> 0:24:44.796 and for whatever reason, I stopped what I was doing 0:24:44.836 --> 0:24:48.116 and I texted Mike and reminded him who I was, 0:24:48.996 --> 0:24:50.836 and asked him what he'd like to try to write 0:24:50.876 --> 0:24:54.516 some together. I don't really know other than the fact 0:24:54.516 --> 0:24:57.756 that I understood that he comes from a different musical 0:24:57.756 --> 0:25:00.876 tradition than I do, and I wanted to get out 0:25:00.876 --> 0:25:03.356 of the same habits that he's talking about his hands 0:25:03.396 --> 0:25:06.556 having at a piano. You know, I know because I 0:25:06.596 --> 0:25:10.556 come out of a folk in country blues tradition. Melodically, 0:25:10.716 --> 0:25:13.556 even though I studied the Great American Songbook, you know, 0:25:13.636 --> 0:25:16.396 I'm a Duke Ellington freak. I've put myself into that 0:25:16.516 --> 0:25:19.716 music as deeply as I can. I don't have a 0:25:20.516 --> 0:25:25.996 lot of facility articulating music in that way, though I'm 0:25:26.276 --> 0:25:31.076 my imagination is fired by it. And I'm sure that 0:25:31.156 --> 0:25:34.076 I recognized in what Mike does and what his background 0:25:34.116 --> 0:25:36.396 truly is that has little to do with so called 0:25:36.436 --> 0:25:41.716 country music, that he understood a lot of nuance and 0:25:41.796 --> 0:25:45.316 a lot of the elements that create that kind of 0:25:45.396 --> 0:25:50.396