Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: where I get to talk to people I admire about
Speaker 1: topics I find fascinating, and today we're tackling a topic
Speaker 1: that has touched just about everyone's lives, mental health. You know,
Speaker 1: part of the reason I wanted to do an episode
Speaker 1: on this topic right now is that I know people
Speaker 1: are struggling with feelings of isolation, anxiety, loneliness, and even depression.
Speaker 1: It's become kind of a fact of life for so
Speaker 1: many during this pandemic and the economic crisis. In fact,
Speaker 1: one study published in the Journal of the American Medical
Speaker 1: Association found that rates of depression have tripled for adults
Speaker 1: in the US in recent months. I like, I think
Speaker 1: probably all of you have known someone who has suffered
Speaker 1: with mental illness, or whose child or loved one has,
Speaker 1: and you know how painful and difficult it is to
Speaker 1: come to terms with that and then defined help. One
Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges about dealing with mental health issues
Speaker 1: is the stigma that it too often carries. I think
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of courage to be open and
Speaker 1: candid about personal struggles with mental health and I'm honored
Speaker 1: to talk to three people who have done exactly that.
Speaker 1: I'll be talking with Jason Candor, the former Secretary of
Speaker 1: State of Missouri and a veteran who has publicly shared
Speaker 1: his struggles with post traumatic stress disorder or pt S.
Speaker 1: D Ali Brousch, a writer and artists known for her
Speaker 1: honest and surprisingly funny descriptions of living with anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1: But first, I'm talking with Audra McDonald. Audra McDonald is
Speaker 1: a six time Tony Award winner. In fact, she's won
Speaker 1: more Tony's for acting than any other performer in history,
Speaker 1: and she's the first person to win in every performance category.
Speaker 1: I have followed her career. I'm thrilled watching her on
Speaker 1: the stage. I'm honored to have gotten to know her
Speaker 1: as a friend. And in addition to being a phenomenal
Speaker 1: actor and singer, she is an outspoken advocate for racial justice,
Speaker 1: gender equality, and yes, mental health. She has spoken openly
Speaker 1: about surviving an attempted suicide when she was a student
Speaker 1: at Juilliard in New York. I am so personally delighted
Speaker 1: to be talking to someone who I admire and I
Speaker 1: am the biggest fan of How you doing in the
Speaker 1: middle of the craziness that we're in with the pandemic
Speaker 1: and everything. You know, I'm trying to gather the life
Speaker 1: lessons from this time, because there's got to be some
Speaker 1: big universal lesson that we as a human race, they're
Speaker 1: supposed to learn that. I'm supposed to learn as a mom,
Speaker 1: as a wife, as a woman, And I'm really trying
Speaker 1: to look for the big lessons and make sure that
Speaker 1: I learned them during this time, because otherwise I think
Speaker 1: I'd be going crazy. You know, Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: a really smart way to think about it. You know,
Speaker 1: you come, as I understand it, from a family of
Speaker 1: musicians and singers. I think your father, I read, was
Speaker 1: a music teacher. I think you had grandmother's maybe on
Speaker 1: both sides, who we sides also pianists and piano teachers.
Speaker 1: How did that influence you as a kid? I mean,
Speaker 1: do you feel like it's the nature nurture? I mean,
Speaker 1: you were born into this musical family, But clearly not
Speaker 1: everybody born into a musical family as the talent that
Speaker 1: you were born with. So how do you think about that? Well,
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, a lot of my experienced growing up
Speaker 1: in such a musical family was that. It was just
Speaker 1: a part of our lives. And I don't think it
Speaker 1: was even something that everybody considered that they were going
Speaker 1: to do for a living. It's just a part of
Speaker 1: who we were. You know. My dad had six sisters
Speaker 1: and they would sing all over California at different churches.
Speaker 1: They were called the McDonald's sisters, and they would sing
Speaker 1: gospel music all over and that's not what any of
Speaker 1: them ended up doing for a living. It's just a
Speaker 1: part of who they are. It was a part of
Speaker 1: our culture. It was a part of what it meant
Speaker 1: to be a McDonald in a way, to be musical,
Speaker 1: or even just being an audience member, even as a
Speaker 1: McDonald The McDonald's that didn't necessarily want to be musical
Speaker 1: would still sit down on a Sunday afternoon and you know,
Speaker 1: my aunts would all sing, or my grandmother would sit
Speaker 1: down and play the piano and everybody would just fellowship.
Speaker 1: And that that's a part of our culture. But my
Speaker 1: family in particular, because I was a very specific type
Speaker 1: of child. I was a very hyperactive child. I was
Speaker 1: a very overdram matic child. I was a child that
Speaker 1: had a lot of emotion and didn't know how to
Speaker 1: handle it. My family, my mom and my dad especially,
Speaker 1: figured out quite early that music and performance was going
Speaker 1: to be away for me to channel and to settle
Speaker 1: myself and focus this energy that I had. So it
Speaker 1: absolutely became nurture in that regard, and they looked for
Speaker 1: ways for me to plug in this energy. I could
Speaker 1: have seen my life going a different way with a
Speaker 1: different set of parents. I could see that that could
Speaker 1: have happened. That's so interesting. I mean, can you remember
Speaker 1: when you first knew that you were a performer. There's
Speaker 1: two things that I remember very specifically, two moments. I remember. One,
Speaker 1: I sang in the church choir, and I was in
Speaker 1: church all day long on Sunday because my mom was
Speaker 1: Episcopalian and my dad was a Andy. So we would
Speaker 1: start the morning at St. James Episcopal Church and my
Speaker 1: mom would sing in the adult choir, and my sister
Speaker 1: and I sang in the little kid's choir, and then
Speaker 1: once that church was over, we went over to Carter
Speaker 1: A and E, where my grandmother played the organ. When
Speaker 1: we're in church all afternoon, so I was starving by
Speaker 1: the time we we get home, but my day was
Speaker 1: filled with the Lord on Sundays at any rate. So
Speaker 1: at my mom's church, I remember our time as the
Speaker 1: little kid's choir. We'd get up, turn around and face
Speaker 1: the congregation and sing. And I remember my dad always
Speaker 1: sang to my mom, she's so loud, you know, her
Speaker 1: voice is so loud it sticks out. And then I
Speaker 1: remember one early evening after a day of church, where
Speaker 1: my mom and dad, after hearing them talk about that
Speaker 1: I was loud, started asking me to match pitches and
Speaker 1: my dad was playing his organ in the music room
Speaker 1: and he'd say, sing this note, and I'd sing it
Speaker 1: and I could. I remember my mom and dad looking
Speaker 1: at each other and there and I knew some kind
Speaker 1: of communication was going on, but I didn't. And those
Speaker 1: are moments that are still with me in my fifty
Speaker 1: year old sort of adult brain in this time right now.
Speaker 1: So they must have been moments that really spoke to
Speaker 1: me as saying, oh, there's something there, there is something there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And when I finally did first get on stage with
Speaker 1: a little dinner theater that I started in when I
Speaker 1: was nine, I remember feeling better settled. You know you
Speaker 1: were meant to do this, Yes, it was who you are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's almost like sitting here, as I'm sitting here in
Speaker 1: my closet with all these chords plugged into my computer
Speaker 1: in this microphone and stuff. It's like when you find
Speaker 1: the right you know, USB chord for the right port
Speaker 1: and it fits and all of a sudden everything turns on.
Speaker 1: That's how it felt for me when I first stepped up.
Speaker 1: Great description. I love that I got plugged in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you got plugged in. And so then you decided you
Speaker 1: were going to be professional, and you went to study
Speaker 1: classical voice at Juilliard right law away from home, across
Speaker 1: the country. And I don't know about you. I was
Speaker 1: so homesick when I showed up at college. I was
Speaker 1: just bereft. I didn't feel like I fit or I
Speaker 1: should be there. And I remember calling home collect that's
Speaker 1: what we used to do in those days. Those are
Speaker 1: my days too. I want to I want to come home.
Speaker 1: And you know, my father, who never wanted me to
Speaker 1: go that far away anyway, he said, okay, great, come home,
Speaker 1: and my mother, no, no, you're gonna stick it out.
Speaker 1: But here you are, all the way across the country
Speaker 1: in a very intense dare I say, competitive environment? What
Speaker 1: was that it was hard. It was hard because I
Speaker 1: was this kid from Fresno, California who had gotten accepted
Speaker 1: to Juilliard, and I had always known, this is what
Speaker 1: I want to do. I want to do Broadway. I
Speaker 1: want to be on Broadway, I want to do musicals.
Speaker 1: And I knew the Juilliard was a big school and
Speaker 1: that I should audition. So I thought, I'll audition as
Speaker 1: a singer because it seem doing my strong suit. But
Speaker 1: I think I just didn't realize what I was getting into.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how intense it would be in terms
Speaker 1: of a classical education, because singing classically was not what
Speaker 1: I was interested in doing. But I had gotten in,
Speaker 1: and I really didn't research the program enough to understand
Speaker 1: that if I got into the classical vocal department, I
Speaker 1: was not going to be able to study the things
Speaker 1: that I wanted to study, which meant no acting, no dance.
Speaker 1: It was basically you know, music theory, soul fish, English
Speaker 1: and Italian and German, French dictions, and music history, which
Speaker 1: is all great, but that's it wasn't what I was
Speaker 1: interested in doing. It didn't feed your no. So the
Speaker 1: whole time I was there, I was really really frustrated.
Speaker 1: But I also felt the weight of being, you know,
Speaker 1: the local girl who had made it to Juilliard, and
Speaker 1: this is the local girl I wanted to be on Broadway.
Speaker 1: So I felt the weight of not being able to
Speaker 1: go home, not being able to admit earlier, not being
Speaker 1: able to say I've made a mistake. That's a lot
Speaker 1: to put on, you know, your shoulders, as what were
Speaker 1: you eighteen nights? I was eighteen. It was a lot
Speaker 1: to handle. And because I had always had theater and
Speaker 1: performing as a way of sort of focusing me and
Speaker 1: settling me. And I was now in New York, so
Speaker 1: close to my goal in that I was living in
Speaker 1: New York, living on Broadway, and I had never felt
Speaker 1: further away from my dream. Well, you've been very open
Speaker 1: about this time in your life that you you know,
Speaker 1: you got really depressed. How did you come to grips
Speaker 1: with that? I mean, what did you? I didn't. I
Speaker 1: was just getting more and more despondent and more and
Speaker 1: more fearful that I was never gonna get to my goal.
Speaker 1: And I was having boy trouble, and I'm an emotional person.
Speaker 1: And so one night, after having my heartbroken by this boy,
Speaker 1: that was really the straw that broke the camel's back.
Speaker 1: I I am. I tried to slit my wrists, you know,
Speaker 1: and uh, I reached out for help and was taken
Speaker 1: to a mental hospital and that's where I ended up
Speaker 1: for a month. You know, when you think about that
Speaker 1: experience for you, and I have other friends who have
Speaker 1: had similar experiences, you know, sometimes that cry for help
Speaker 1: is the only way to get the attention and support,
Speaker 1: and in your case, you know, time off in a
Speaker 1: way to get whatever kind of support, help, encouragement you need.
Speaker 1: So when you came back out, did you feel steadier.
Speaker 1: Had you made some decisions about yourself, like I don't
Speaker 1: want to go back to that classical program. That's not me.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to force myself. Well, a lot of
Speaker 1: things went down. I you know, my parents both flew
Speaker 1: out to see me, and my dad again maybe like
Speaker 1: you're a dad. My dad had always said, look, Ordery,
Speaker 1: don't have to do this. You can come home at
Speaker 1: any time. And what I think in reaching out for help,
Speaker 1: because that's what the attempt was, it was a cry
Speaker 1: for help. And what it did was it allowed me
Speaker 1: to say I'm not happy here to be honest with
Speaker 1: yourselves and to start to really examine what was going
Speaker 1: to bring me happiness. And so at that point when
Speaker 1: I was really able to sort of vocalize, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do this. I don't want to be an
Speaker 1: opera singer. I don't want to sing classical music. And
Speaker 1: so I knew I had to finish my degree. How
Speaker 1: I went about finishing it, along with the help of
Speaker 1: the school at that point, was very, very different. It
Speaker 1: was one of those things was like, I gotta do
Speaker 1: what we gotta do to get through this, but we
Speaker 1: all know this is not what order is going to do.
Speaker 1: And I think that alleviated some of the the pressure.
Speaker 1: And then I got an opportunity to audition for a
Speaker 1: Broadway tour for something during that time, and the dean
Speaker 1: of the school said, yeah, go do that, Go do that.
Speaker 1: Very encouraging that they said that, Yeah, these were things
Speaker 1: that helped me, you know, get back on track. But
Speaker 1: I needed that derailment. I guess I don't want to say,
Speaker 1: because I don't ever want to say, you know, suicide
Speaker 1: is the answer, but I needed to reach out for help. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I I really appreciate your openness and telling
Speaker 1: this story because there's a really happy ending. I've kind
Speaker 1: of been happy ending because it was, like, what too,
Speaker 1: two and a half years after this happened that you
Speaker 1: ended up in carouself. Wasn't it that that close in time?
Speaker 1: It was that close in time. I think it was
Speaker 1: ninety one that I had this episode in my life,
Speaker 1: and it was when I was cast in Carousel, and
Speaker 1: ninety four when it opened on on Broadway at Lincoln Center,
Speaker 1: and uh, I won the Tony in June. It's crazy.
Speaker 1: You can't make this up. Are The reason I open
Speaker 1: about my experience is because, like you said, Hilary, I
Speaker 1: want to make sure that the other audres out there,
Speaker 1: anybody out there, sees that it does get better, It
Speaker 1: can get better. It's okay to ask for help. And
Speaker 1: I make no bones about the fact that I, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those things, especially in a time
Speaker 1: like this, with all this trauma happening and all over
Speaker 1: the planet, in the country, and everything that's happening with
Speaker 1: us politically right now, it still can be very triggering.
Speaker 1: Um and so I still have to find ways to
Speaker 1: sort of take care of myself. And I understand, I
Speaker 1: understand the importance of self care now and whatever way
Speaker 1: that is that I have to do for myself. But
Speaker 1: I stay open about this topic because I don't want
Speaker 1: people to think that they are alone and the only
Speaker 1: ones who have suffered through this. They are not. We're
Speaker 1: taking a quick break, stay with us. Do you find
Speaker 1: that in sort of the you know, the entertainment world,
Speaker 1: you know, people are more sensitive and therefore shoulder a
Speaker 1: bigger burden of you know, kind of mental health challenges. Yeah, probably,
Speaker 1: I would probably say that it's true. Sometimes it's hard
Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, be anthropological about your own
Speaker 1: culture and I'm talking about my entertainment you know culture,
Speaker 1: and a step back and look at it. But if
Speaker 1: you think about it that it would it would make sense, right.
Speaker 1: It certainly scans that, especially when our job is to
Speaker 1: you know, literally go inside and go deep down. As
Speaker 1: Dorri Preven said in a poem where the iguanas play
Speaker 1: in your soul, You're going all the way down to
Speaker 1: the bottom to pull it all up and then serve
Speaker 1: it up on a silver platter for the rest of
Speaker 1: the world to look at and go, yes, I feel that,
Speaker 1: or no, that's horrible or whatever it is. So just
Speaker 1: by nature of what we do um as artists. I
Speaker 1: imagine that that makes sense. But having said that, um
Speaker 1: maybe in some ways we're more in touch with it.
Speaker 1: It makes sense too. I think it would be great
Speaker 1: to have you know, theater, games and things like that
Speaker 1: for like neurosurgeons or people who have to work in
Speaker 1: combat or or you know, or people on the front
Speaker 1: lines right now and then these hospitals and it might
Speaker 1: be good for them to get a lot of this out.
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: and and think about I mean, there's so many performers
Speaker 1: artists out of work right now because of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: And I almost wish that what you just said could
Speaker 1: be operationalized, and maybe it could be done virtually, but
Speaker 1: you you know, you would have actors sort of leading
Speaker 1: workshops about Okay, here's here's how you can get in
Speaker 1: touch with your feelings acted out and feel better because
Speaker 1: of it. Actually, and having said that, because of what's
Speaker 1: happening with our industry right now, I am concerned about
Speaker 1: the people in our industry, and not just the actors
Speaker 1: and actresses, but there's crews, people who work in the
Speaker 1: restaurants that serve these theater districts, you know, the musicians,
Speaker 1: the wardrobe all. It's a really, really frightening time. It is, right,
Speaker 1: it is, and so I imagine there's going to be
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma justin whether or not people are
Speaker 1: going to see their industry come back at all, and
Speaker 1: what it will look like when it does come back.
Speaker 1: I have faith in my heart that we will get
Speaker 1: it all back some day because we have to. We
Speaker 1: have to as human beings. I don't think we can
Speaker 1: exist without theater. And the Greeks knew it. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is just this is a part of the human
Speaker 1: condition that we need to be able to see all
Speaker 1: of it out there in front of us. You know,
Speaker 1: a great old dame who I loved so very much,
Speaker 1: so called well one of the greatest actresses. She's passed
Speaker 1: away this past year, but she talked about how, you know,
Speaker 1: with the Greek tragedies, you see all that stuff out
Speaker 1: on stage, and it helps you to get it out
Speaker 1: so you don't go off exactly right. That's how I feel,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean I went to the
Speaker 1: theater after the election for literally therapy, I mean, goodness,
Speaker 1: the feelings and the despair and and just the incredible
Speaker 1: worry about what was going to happen to our country,
Speaker 1: and you know, I would lose myself, you know, going
Speaker 1: to the theater. And I loved what you said. Recently
Speaker 1: you were performing in a Carnegie Hall virtual concert, Yes,
Speaker 1: and you chose to perform the song sing Happy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I loved it because you said, there's something about
Speaker 1: sing happy that is so defiant. Yeah. That could be
Speaker 1: a mantra for life, for performing for this terrible time
Speaker 1: we're living through, for the common trauma that we are,
Speaker 1: you know, experiencing. Does it ring true to you in
Speaker 1: your life that you can be defiant and choose happiness
Speaker 1: despite everything? Absolutely? And in that I give myself permission.
Speaker 1: And I've just started to learn this that when that
Speaker 1: means that by choosing happiness, it means you need to
Speaker 1: take time for yourself and choose self care and sit
Speaker 1: back and take care of yourself so that you can
Speaker 1: then move forward again. That is a part of it.
Speaker 1: That is a part of that defiance exactly right now.
Speaker 1: That is a what is it a revolutionary act? That's
Speaker 1: a revolutionary act. That's care so so, and that's also
Speaker 1: something that I want to model for my kids, or
Speaker 1: for people who might look up to me, you know,
Speaker 1: whoever that might be. I want to model that for
Speaker 1: them as well, and and acknowledge that there are some
Speaker 1: days that I get up and I fail miserably jail crowd,
Speaker 1: trying to crow. I mean, yeah, you know, you kind
Speaker 1: of wander around your house going, I can't believe this,
Speaker 1: I can't believe this. I don't know what to do right.
Speaker 1: But then you get then you take the time, and
Speaker 1: then you try again the next day. And even when
Speaker 1: you're in the throes of depression or an anxiety, and
Speaker 1: even the fact that you woke up that day you're
Speaker 1: at least sitting up, or even if you're in your bed,
Speaker 1: at least you're still in your bed. You're there, You're there.
Speaker 1: That is an act of defiance, the fact that you
Speaker 1: were living through another day. It's something that you made
Speaker 1: it through. And that for me, in those dark, dark,
Speaker 1: dark dark times in that hospital, that was frightening. And
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was I was on all
Speaker 1: this medication, I didn't know what I was doing. There
Speaker 1: was a part of each day that I would oak
Speaker 1: my eyes, I go, okay, well I'm still here. I'm
Speaker 1: still here. Let's see what this day brings. There is
Speaker 1: hope even in that. I want to acknowledge that for
Speaker 1: the people who may be laid out right now, at
Speaker 1: least they're still here. I just that needs to be said.
Speaker 1: It needs to be said, and you are such a
Speaker 1: great messenger of that. I am so grateful too. I'm
Speaker 1: just so grateful to you being you. Oh and I
Speaker 1: you so thank you. To keep up with Audra and
Speaker 1: all of the fabulous things she's doing. You can find
Speaker 1: her on Twitter at Audra equality m C. My next
Speaker 1: guest is Jason Candor, someone who I have watched for
Speaker 1: quite a number of years. He served our country in
Speaker 1: the military, went to Afghanistan, served both in the Missouri
Speaker 1: State House and then as Secretary of State, and in
Speaker 1: his book highly recommend called Outside the Wire Ten Lessons
Speaker 1: I've Learned In Everyday Courage, he recounts in a really
Speaker 1: compelling way a lot of the lessons that he's learned
Speaker 1: in his life. But I really think that one of
Speaker 1: the most courageous actions that I've seen from anybody is
Speaker 1: when you publicly announced that you were dropping out of
Speaker 1: the race for mayor of Kansas City, which you certainly
Speaker 1: seemed on track to win. In order to take care
Speaker 1: of your mental health, can you take us back to
Speaker 1: that fall of eighteen, what you were experiencing and thinking
Speaker 1: and what led you to make what was a really
Speaker 1: courageous decision. Jason, Yeah. Sure. First of all, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for having me. This is a pleasure and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Yeah, so interesting. I stand by everything
Speaker 1: that's in the book except for the stuff that I
Speaker 1: didn't know wasn't right. Like there's a chapter where I
Speaker 1: talked about coming home from Afghanistan, and I sort of
Speaker 1: make the argument to the readers, but really to myself
Speaker 1: that I hadn't done enough for my problems to actually
Speaker 1: be post traumatic stress. And I sanitized what I was
Speaker 1: going through in the book, you know, no secret. Like
Speaker 1: when I was writing that book, I think it was
Speaker 1: very candid for someone who was planning to run for presidents,
Speaker 1: and so it was a little bit sanitized that part.
Speaker 1: And so now I look back and I went through
Speaker 1: about eleven years of living with untreated, undiagnosed post traumatic
Speaker 1: stress and doing what a lot of veterans do, which
Speaker 1: is telling myself, well, I didn't do enough to earn
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress. I felt like claiming post traumatic stress
Speaker 1: would be like stolen valor, and I just I couldn't
Speaker 1: do that. And it just got to the point where,
Speaker 1: you know, I decided I wasn't gonna run for president.
Speaker 1: I was going to run for mayor. And it was
Speaker 1: a two part plan. It was I'm gonna seek redemption
Speaker 1: by serving my neighbors, and I'm going to go to
Speaker 1: the v A. I hadn't admit into myself yet it
Speaker 1: was PTSD, but I was like, I need some help,
Speaker 1: and so I did the first part and it was
Speaker 1: going great, Like you said, we were gonna win, but
Speaker 1: I didn't do the second part, and it just got
Speaker 1: worse and worse and worse, and we got to the
Speaker 1: point where we were breaking records. I had raised three
Speaker 1: times as much money as the other nine candidates for
Speaker 1: mayor combined me we were gonna win probably by a
Speaker 1: country mile, and I was increasingly thinking about killing myself
Speaker 1: because I had gone through this decade and it was
Speaker 1: getting worse and worse of never getting a good night's
Speaker 1: rest because of violent nightmares, hyper vigilance, emotional numbness, and
Speaker 1: then depression, because if you just live with that for
Speaker 1: long enough, it's depressing, and so I finally I called
Speaker 1: the Veterans Crisis Hotline, And what really swung me was
Speaker 1: that the woman on the other end of the phone,
Speaker 1: her tone of voice was so unexpectedly for me casual,
Speaker 1: that I realized I wasn't special, I wasn't different than
Speaker 1: anybody else would dealt with this. I was just another
Speaker 1: call and she had many of these and shift and
Speaker 1: that's when I realized, I, Oh, that's what this is,
Speaker 1: and I decided to stop everything and go to the
Speaker 1: v A. You know, it's so important obviously for yourself
Speaker 1: and your family that you made that call and then
Speaker 1: you followed up on it, but it's also really important
Speaker 1: for people listening to hear you describe that. I've had
Speaker 1: a lot of experience talking to vets, going to v
Speaker 1: A hospitals and programs, and hearing much of what you
Speaker 1: just said being repeated, you know, like, nothing really bad
Speaker 1: happened to me. But I remember so vividly being at
Speaker 1: Walter Reid when I was a senator, visiting vet's from
Speaker 1: New York who had been serving in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: And I was walking down the hallway and this young
Speaker 1: man came by and he recognized me, and he stopped
Speaker 1: and he said, Mrs Clinton, can I ask you something?
Speaker 1: And I said sure, And he said, you know, I
Speaker 1: got physically injured. They're doing a fine job treating me.
Speaker 1: And he showed me that, you know, part of his
Speaker 1: hand and arm had been badly mangled. He said, but
Speaker 1: where do I go to get my brain back? And
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that because he almost repeated verbatim what
Speaker 1: you said. He said, you know, I was on the
Speaker 1: fast track. I could do anything. I was physically in
Speaker 1: great shape. I was mentally, you know, at the top
Speaker 1: of my game. He said, Now I can't sleep. My
Speaker 1: wife has to basically write out lists for me about
Speaker 1: what I need to do, one after another. And if
Speaker 1: this young man like you had been walking down the
Speaker 1: street or running for office or working in you know,
Speaker 1: business somewhere, it would have been really hard to recognize
Speaker 1: the pain and suffering that he or you were experiencing.
Speaker 1: So people hear about, you know, post traumatic stress disorder,
Speaker 1: but they don't know what it looks like. How did
Speaker 1: it impact your day to day life. You've said you
Speaker 1: had violent dreams. Were those like every night they wake
Speaker 1: you up? Yeah? Now that I had therapy and I've
Speaker 1: dealt with the underlying trauma. I get these nightmares about
Speaker 1: once every couple of weeks, and they're not that bad anymore,
Speaker 1: and I know I know what to do for them.
Speaker 1: For about a decade, it was every single night, like
Speaker 1: I went about a decade without a good night's sleep.
Speaker 1: And now that I can, man, it's awesome, Like it's
Speaker 1: like a superpower. And anyway, yeah, I would get these
Speaker 1: nightmares and it is kind of interesting how the brain works.
Speaker 1: So when I first came back, for the first few years,
Speaker 1: it would replay situations from my deployment. And for context,
Speaker 1: I was an intelligence officer and my role was to
Speaker 1: investigate corruption and espionage by Afghan officials, basically figure out
Speaker 1: which bad guys were pretending to be good guys. And
Speaker 1: what that meant was I would go out and I'd
Speaker 1: have meetings with folks, and I'd be just be me
Speaker 1: and my translator most of the time, and nobody would
Speaker 1: know where I was, and I'd be gone for a
Speaker 1: long periods of time and very vulnerable. And so that's
Speaker 1: what one of the things I really struggled with when
Speaker 1: I came back was, you know, I had friends who
Speaker 1: were a lot of firefights, and here I was. I
Speaker 1: went to meetings and it took therapy at the v
Speaker 1: A for somebody to explain to me you were exposed
Speaker 1: with no possibility of being saved for hours at a time,
Speaker 1: and it's traumatic. Anyway, my my nightmares would be I'd
Speaker 1: be in some of those meetings, but in the dreams
Speaker 1: they would kidnap me. So that's how it started. And
Speaker 1: then a few years in I decided I must be
Speaker 1: getting better because the dreams no longer take place in Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: which was actually, yeah, I found out later in therapy
Speaker 1: that that's actually like really bad because what it meant
Speaker 1: was now the dreams were the same sort of threat,
Speaker 1: except the environ of the dream was my house, and
Speaker 1: the people who were under threat were my wife, my son,
Speaker 1: you know, people like that. And I remember my therapist
Speaker 1: the v A really just blew my mind when he
Speaker 1: was like, no, it's bad when that happens. Because one
Speaker 1: of your other symptoms is hyper vigilance. You think you're
Speaker 1: in danger all the time. You think it's really happening
Speaker 1: in your life because every night, what you're unconscious, it
Speaker 1: does And one of the things that is really missed
Speaker 1: is that there's a really important sort of brainwashing that
Speaker 1: happens when you go into the military. And I don't
Speaker 1: even mean this in a derogatory way. For me to
Speaker 1: keep going into those meetings with people who might want
Speaker 1: to cut my head off on YouTube over and over again,
Speaker 1: or for you know, an infantry soldier to keep going
Speaker 1: on patrols, they have to grind into you from the
Speaker 1: day you get off the bus at basic that everybody
Speaker 1: else is doing harder stuff than you, and this is
Speaker 1: no big deal. It's important you have to do that.
Speaker 1: The problem we have is we have not really figured
Speaker 1: out a way to flip that switch off, which is
Speaker 1: why people like me spend a decade saying everybody else
Speaker 1: has it worse. Somebody has to sit you down on
Speaker 1: your way out and be like, Okay, you need to
Speaker 1: know that was crazy, Like that's not normal. You're going
Speaker 1: to need help, But instead you just that switches still on.
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely true in the military for the
Speaker 1: reasons you've just described. Has to be ingrained in you
Speaker 1: if you're going to be putting yourself at risk and
Speaker 1: endanger in all kinds of setting. But I think it's
Speaker 1: also true more generally for mental health. You know, people
Speaker 1: need to hear, Hey, wait a minute, that's not normal.
Speaker 1: The child who was abused to then starts having flashbacks
Speaker 1: as a young adult. You know, hey, that's to be expected.
Speaker 1: We can help you. You know, I think about your
Speaker 1: being in Afghanistan, and when I was reading the book,
Speaker 1: I've been in Afghanistan six seven times, maybe long more,
Speaker 1: several times when I was senator, several times when I
Speaker 1: was Secretary of State. I might spend the you know,
Speaker 1: two nights, three nights there. But I really resonated to
Speaker 1: what you were describing about the hyper vigilance, because even
Speaker 1: though you know, I'm there to have conversations with you know, officials,
Speaker 1: but occasionally, you know, they'd bring in a warlord who
Speaker 1: we were trying to influence. You sit across from these guys,
Speaker 1: you knew they were lying to you, you knew that
Speaker 1: they were personally responsible for murdering a bunch of people,
Speaker 1: and you just could feel your body reacting. And when
Speaker 1: you're in that situation, as a military officer or as
Speaker 1: a civilian, you have to be a bit hyper vigilant.
Speaker 1: I mean you are looking around for okay, where is
Speaker 1: the exit? I remember on my first trip to Cobble
Speaker 1: going in. You know, at that time we thought, wow,
Speaker 1: you know, this is great, We're doing so well, and
Speaker 1: all the rest of it, going into what was still
Speaker 1: functioning as a center of commerce and having dinner at
Speaker 1: a restaurant, going to a clothing store where I you know,
Speaker 1: I bought a really nice embroidered afghan coat. But next
Speaker 1: time I went back, I wouldn't have done that. I mean,
Speaker 1: we were sleeping in containers on the premises of the embassy,
Speaker 1: and and we were coming in for you know, screw
Speaker 1: drive down landings in the airport. I mean, you just
Speaker 1: begin to feel the danger, and anybody who hasn't been
Speaker 1: there doesn't maybe understand why all of a sudden you
Speaker 1: you are looking for where's the nearest exit, And is
Speaker 1: that guy's finger on the trigger of the automatic weapon
Speaker 1: just because that's where it rests, or is there something
Speaker 1: else about to happen. So, you know, I think when
Speaker 1: you describe how you lived for ten years basically in
Speaker 1: that hyper vigilant state, as though you were walking into
Speaker 1: a warlord's office or driving down the road to another
Speaker 1: intel meeting, I really got it. Well. So after you've
Speaker 1: got the response calling into the VA What came next
Speaker 1: for you? So I went to the v A in
Speaker 1: Kansas City. So I show up and I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna walk in, and it's the same government that
Speaker 1: had all my information a few years ago. Like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say, hey, Jason Army, you know, here's myself. Can
Speaker 1: I get in? You know? And I look, I'm somebody
Speaker 1: who had been around all this stuff. From a policy perspective,
Speaker 1: maybe I should have known better, but that ain't how
Speaker 1: it worked. Unfortunately, everybody I've ever encountered at the v
Speaker 1: A individually has been fantastic. I mean everybody there. They
Speaker 1: just want to serve vets. But as you know, the
Speaker 1: bureaucracy and some of the rules that are put in
Speaker 1: place from on high are really unhelpful. And in my case,
Speaker 1: I ran into one which I think they've since gotten
Speaker 1: rid of, but said that if you come in within
Speaker 1: five years of your combat deployment, will enroll you in
Speaker 1: the system, no questions asked. But if you are beyond
Speaker 1: that five years, then you have to like prove that
Speaker 1: you had a traumatic experience and that you need this
Speaker 1: this treatment, which you know, I just had gone through
Speaker 1: a decade of trying to tell myself in the world
Speaker 1: that I was fine, and now I needed to like
Speaker 1: prove that I wasn't, which was weird and also like
Speaker 1: for somebody who you know, was in not the best
Speaker 1: state of mind. You know. Look, I had a phone
Speaker 1: full of influential contacts, a Georgetown law degree, and high
Speaker 1: level government experience, and I was overwhelmed. So anyway, the
Speaker 1: v A. I saw an emergency psyche resident that day,
Speaker 1: but I was basically told that will be a few
Speaker 1: months before I can get into weekly therapy if my
Speaker 1: claim is accepted. And I was like, that ain't gonna work.
Speaker 1: And so I contacted a buddy of mine who had
Speaker 1: started this organization, Veteran Community Project in Kansas City, and
Speaker 1: I had toured at Sack sweeks earlier and was blown away.
Speaker 1: And Veterans Community Project Real Quick does two things. One
Speaker 1: helps any vet navigate the system or do anything else
Speaker 1: they need. And to fight's veterans homelessness for the village
Speaker 1: of tiny houses. That's been really successful. So six weeks earlier,
Speaker 1: I'm on a v I P tour is the next
Speaker 1: mayor And now I call and I tell my buddy
Speaker 1: what's going on and he's like, come on in, And
Speaker 1: I walked through the doors of the Outreach Center like
Speaker 1: any of the other thousands of events who have in
Speaker 1: Kansas City. They handled my paperwork in. A week later,
Speaker 1: I was in weekly therapy at the v A and
Speaker 1: it made all the difference for me, Like quite literally, Yeah,
Speaker 1: when somebody is ready to seek help, they need to
Speaker 1: get that help as soon as possible, like one maybe
Speaker 1: two chances with him, that's it. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: want to go back for a minute to your announcement
Speaker 1: dropping out where you admit it look instead of fundraising.
Speaker 1: I find myself on the phone with the vas Veterans
Speaker 1: Crisis Line, tearfully conceding that I've had suicidal thoughts. It
Speaker 1: wasn't the first time I've been hiding that from myself.
Speaker 1: You know, I was trying to convince myself and I
Speaker 1: wasn't sharing the full picture. I still have nightmares. I'm depressed.
Speaker 1: You know, that was an incredibly honest letter explaining why
Speaker 1: you were dropping out of the race. How scary was
Speaker 1: that to do? It was really scary. It was scary,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't scary. It wasn't scary in the sense
Speaker 1: that I had arrived at the place where I finally
Speaker 1: no longer cared. I mean I cared, but I had
Speaker 1: a wife and a son, and I was worried that
Speaker 1: I was going to hurt myself. And so finally something
Speaker 1: had come along that had become more important to me
Speaker 1: than my career. And the reason my career had been
Speaker 1: so important is because it had been my coping mechanism.
Speaker 1: I had self medicated with throwing myself into this search
Speaker 1: for redemption. I care about my country and I care
Speaker 1: about service, and I did it for those reasons, but
Speaker 1: I probably threw myself into it with a wild abandon.
Speaker 1: I did because it was the thing that took my
Speaker 1: mind off being inside my own mind. And so finally
Speaker 1: I was momentarily relieved of that because I knew how
Speaker 1: important this was. But at the same time, I didn't
Speaker 1: know anything about post traumatic stress. I didn't have any
Speaker 1: idea if I could get better. All I knew was
Speaker 1: that the one thing in my life that was objectively
Speaker 1: going really well was my career, and I was hitting
Speaker 1: the self destruct button on that, and so that was scary.
Speaker 1: You know. In a October nineteen New York Times article
Speaker 1: about you, I read something that really made an impact.
Speaker 1: You know again, it said for more than a decade.
Speaker 1: Mr Kander said, he refused to acknowledge to himself or
Speaker 1: anyone else that these might be signs of post traumatic stress.
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I did enough to earn it,
Speaker 1: he said, looking back. Do you think that still is
Speaker 1: one of the principal reasons why vets are not seeking help?
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that basically summarizes the biggest
Speaker 1: obstacle they don't feel worthy to seek help? Yeah, now
Speaker 1: I know it does, because I've heard from so many
Speaker 1: since my announcement, and I've had so many people tell
Speaker 1: me that the most important part of what I said
Speaker 1: was I didn't feel like I earned it. Uh. In fact,
Speaker 1: when I was over there, there were two other gentlemen
Speaker 1: who I worked with who did a very similar job
Speaker 1: to me, and they were really the only people I
Speaker 1: knew who were experiencing Afghanistan the way I was, and
Speaker 1: they were part of what was called the Technical Human
Speaker 1: Intelligence Team. Basically, they went out and they met with people,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we did it together, but a lot of
Speaker 1: times we all did it separately, and I didn't stay
Speaker 1: in touch with them afterwards, And that's sort of a
Speaker 1: lesson for people. If you go through something traumatic, stay
Speaker 1: in touch with the other people who did because you
Speaker 1: can learn from each other. So we all went our
Speaker 1: separate ways. One of those gentlemen a year after we
Speaker 1: came back, died in a one vehicle accident, which I've
Speaker 1: now learned when that happens with combat veterans frequently, it's
Speaker 1: not an accident, unfortunately. And then the other gentleman, I finally,
Speaker 1: after I'd gone through treatment, reached out to. This was
Speaker 1: about eight months ago that I reached out to him,
Speaker 1: and he was about to retire from active duty, and
Speaker 1: we had a conversation that led to him finally going
Speaker 1: in and getting treatment. And one of the things he
Speaker 1: told me was he was like, look, Jason, after you left,
Speaker 1: like I had people who I tried to put into
Speaker 1: your job. And he told me literally he had somebody
Speaker 1: who quit the first day because they got back and
Speaker 1: they had urinated on themselves. Like he was like, what
Speaker 1: we did was really frightening and it was crazy and
Speaker 1: people don't do it anymore. But the thing is is like,
Speaker 1: what if he and I had talked, because he's had
Speaker 1: his own struggles and is now on the mend But
Speaker 1: what if he and I and the other gentleman, what
Speaker 1: if we had just stayed in touch? And that's what
Speaker 1: I realized now. Is that why it's so important that
Speaker 1: I said I had felt like I didn't earn it,
Speaker 1: because I've just I've heard from not just veterans who
Speaker 1: say they felt the same way, but I hear from
Speaker 1: people who, you know, had a bad car accident or
Speaker 1: went through cancer treatment or anything like that. And those
Speaker 1: people often will start with me by feeling like they
Speaker 1: have to, you know, have a disclaimer and say, you know,
Speaker 1: I wasn't in a war or anything. And I always
Speaker 1: stop him and I say, you know, you know, your
Speaker 1: brain has no idea what I did, and it doesn't care.
Speaker 1: Like I spent ten years comparing my own trauma to
Speaker 1: other people's and it was a giant waste of my
Speaker 1: own time. M That's a really really good point. Can
Speaker 1: you describe a little bit about the actual therapy? What
Speaker 1: was it for you that worked? Yeah? First, I would
Speaker 1: start with what my biggest misconception about therapy was when
Speaker 1: I went in, which was I always imagined that it
Speaker 1: was sort of passive, like getting an I V drip,
Speaker 1: Like you just go in and you sit down and
Speaker 1: you talk, and that's supposed to but what I didn't
Speaker 1: understand until I started is that it's really active. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of work, not just when you're in there.
Speaker 1: And so what it was for me was a combination
Speaker 1: of a couple of things. One was something called prolonged
Speaker 1: exposure therapy, which was vocalizing the memories. And the way
Speaker 1: my therapist at least did it was I would use
Speaker 1: the voice memo on my phone and I would sit there.
Speaker 1: He would have me close my eyes and I would just,
Speaker 1: for about forty five minutes, have to tell him the
Speaker 1: story of, you know, a traumatic experience, an intrusive or
Speaker 1: disruptive memory, and he would each time act like he'd
Speaker 1: never heard it. And then in between and this is
Speaker 1: where we get to the homework. In between sessions, I'd
Speaker 1: have to put in my headphones, closed my eyes, wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed to multitask or do anything else. Every single day
Speaker 1: between sessions, I had to listen to the thing, and
Speaker 1: I listened to myself tell the story, and that would
Speaker 1: unlock additional details and that sort of thing about it.
Speaker 1: And then I'd go in and do it again, and
Speaker 1: I'd add those. The other homework I had was what
Speaker 1: he called in vivo therapy, which was just no longer
Speaker 1: avoiding the stuff I had avoided. War movies, books, articles
Speaker 1: about Afghanistan, sitting in a restaurant with my back to
Speaker 1: the door, being in a crowded place with my family,
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. And I'd have to do
Speaker 1: it again for forty five minutes at the time, and
Speaker 1: as I did it, I got better and better, and
Speaker 1: as I listened to the stories more. What would happen
Speaker 1: is I remember the first memory we did. We did
Speaker 1: like four or five sessions with it, and then I
Speaker 1: came in and I said in my therapist, I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm bored with this one. And
Speaker 1: I remember he laughed really loud and he was like, great,
Speaker 1: that's the goal. He was like bored and missed the
Speaker 1: goal and he was like, he's like, congratulations, we can
Speaker 1: do a new memory. I like that. That's really sightful.
Speaker 1: It was huge because it meant I had gone from
Speaker 1: it having a grip on me and me sweating and
Speaker 1: getting emotional in my heart racing when I told it too,
Speaker 1: I'm just bored with this. We'll be right back. Well,
Speaker 1: so now you're the national expansion director for the Veterans
Speaker 1: Community Project, which is a group that provides transitional housing
Speaker 1: and assistance to homeless veterans. How did you get started
Speaker 1: with that work? So that's actually that's the organization that
Speaker 1: I went to that you walked into. Yeah. And then
Speaker 1: after about six seven months or so into weekly therapy,
Speaker 1: where I was starting to do quite a lot better,
Speaker 1: I started hanging around Veterans Community Project, and I was
Speaker 1: kind of mentoring the leadership on the fact that they
Speaker 1: had been asked by communities all over the country to
Speaker 1: expand because they had eradicated veterans homelessness, street homelessness in
Speaker 1: Kansas City and just unremarkable things. And so I'm kind
Speaker 1: of mentoring them through it. And then finally my buddy Brian,
Speaker 1: the CEO, he said to me, hey, man, how about
Speaker 1: you just come here and do this. You've created a
Speaker 1: national organization before you know, you're not working at the
Speaker 1: moment and uh, And so that's how I did. So
Speaker 1: now I'm the president Veterans Community Project, and you know,
Speaker 1: we are now under construction in Longmont, Colorado, outside Denver.
Speaker 1: We're about to be under construction at St. Louis, and
Speaker 1: I expect we will be up and running on that
Speaker 1: in about five additional major cities starting next year. That
Speaker 1: is terrific. It is something that I really really applaud
Speaker 1: you and your whole team and colleagues for because you're
Speaker 1: coming up with a model that I hope can be
Speaker 1: taken to scale because the need is so enormous. So
Speaker 1: I have to end by asking you, so, what do
Speaker 1: you think lies in your future? Or are you just
Speaker 1: going day by day these days? You know? The funny
Speaker 1: thing is I um, and you're very familiar with the
Speaker 1: art as well of dodging the question, which I'm not
Speaker 1: about to do. I'm just kind of making fun of
Speaker 1: myself from before, you know, like when people ask me
Speaker 1: like you're gonna run for president? I had a really
Speaker 1: good stock answer which was, well, I'm trying to focus
Speaker 1: on making sure we still have elections right now, and
Speaker 1: like that worked really well, but like the answer was yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I'm probably going to and I just didn't
Speaker 1: say that. And the thing is, I used to just
Speaker 1: think all the time about what was next for me
Speaker 1: because the present sucked. Now life is I'm really enjoying
Speaker 1: it and I really love what I'm doing Inventors Community Project,
Speaker 1: and so to me, it's what's next for me is
Speaker 1: continuing that. But then the other thing is because the
Speaker 1: other way I usually get this question, and I appreciate
Speaker 1: you not asking it this way, one practitioner to another.
Speaker 1: I greatly appreciate it not doing that. Are you coming
Speaker 1: back because I think what you and I understand is
Speaker 1: being on the ballot is not the only way to
Speaker 1: be back. Absolutely yes, And so you know, I have
Speaker 1: my podcast Majority fifty four, where our mission is to
Speaker 1: help people have conversations with conservatives where they convinced them
Speaker 1: but without losing the relationships. I love doing that and
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm part of the conversation. I feel
Speaker 1: like I have a platform, and I feel like I'm back,
Speaker 1: and I'm my dog is agreeing with me, Yeah, cheering
Speaker 1: for you actually yeah. Um so the ups guys here
Speaker 1: and that cannot be tolerated. But I'm enjoying this and
Speaker 1: I feel like I am back, and maybe one day
Speaker 1: I'll run for something again. I don't know, but I
Speaker 1: genuinely don't have any plans to do it right now
Speaker 1: because I'm just having fun. Oh, my friend, that is
Speaker 1: the single best answer, thank you, And you're making a difference,
Speaker 1: and isn't that what we all hope for? I mean,
Speaker 1: that really is at bottom what makes for a purposeful,
Speaker 1: meaningful life, and you're doing it. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for saying all that, and right back at you. I
Speaker 1: don't think you need the validation, but but I just
Speaker 1: here here in our house, we we really appreciate you,
Speaker 1: and thanks, thank you for having this conversation with me.
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that will be hearing a lot
Speaker 1: more from Jason in the meantime. Check out his best
Speaker 1: selling book Outside the Wire and his podcast Majority fifty
Speaker 1: four wherever you listen to podcasts. My last guest is
Speaker 1: author and artist Ali brush Back. In two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: when she was twenty four years old, Ali created the
Speaker 1: blog Hyperbole and a Half. She quickly became an Internet
Speaker 1: sensation because people loved her hilarious observations about things like
Speaker 1: staying up way too late, falling down an online rabbit hole,
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what her dogs are thinking.
Speaker 1: She turned that blog into a best selling book, complete
Speaker 1: with her signature line drawings. She calls her style a
Speaker 1: very precise crudeness. One day after the release, of her
Speaker 1: first book, Alie's blog posts just stopped, and for nearly
Speaker 1: seven years, she disappeared from the Internet. For her fans,
Speaker 1: her silence was concerning, especially because she had written about
Speaker 1: her battles with depression. But earlier this year, Ali made
Speaker 1: her return with her second book, Solutions and Other Problems.
Speaker 1: In it, she delves into everything from growing up as
Speaker 1: a creative and very quirky kid, to living with depression,
Speaker 1: to loss and grief. These days, Ali lives with her
Speaker 1: husband in a small town outside Bend, Oregon. She's a
Speaker 1: self described recluse who spends most of her time writing, drawing,
Speaker 1: playing online games, and reading up on math and science.
Speaker 1: I was really impressed with how Ali takes the sometimes painful,
Speaker 1: sometimes funny twists and turns of her inner life and
Speaker 1: translates that into pictures and stories to share with the
Speaker 1: rest of us. Those of you who have already come
Speaker 1: across her work know how brave and original it is,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to talk to her about all of that.
Speaker 1: Part of the reason I was drawn to you is
Speaker 1: how brave you have have been. You've been really brave
Speaker 1: about Thank you for saying that, talking about difficult issues.
Speaker 1: You know, depression most well known of the things you've
Speaker 1: dealt with, but you also make people laugh. I mean,
Speaker 1: you try to capture the full range of you, and
Speaker 1: then there's something for everybody to connect to. You know,
Speaker 1: for instance, in hyperbole and a half you write that
Speaker 1: depression is like having a bunch of dead fish, but
Speaker 1: no one around you will acknowledge that the fish are dead. Instead,
Speaker 1: they offer to help you look for the fish, to
Speaker 1: try to help you figure out, you know, why they disappeared.
Speaker 1: Talking about depression in that way almost giving it not
Speaker 1: just a language but a visualization. I think it's part
Speaker 1: of the reason you produce such an outpouring of response
Speaker 1: when people read that and read about what you've gone through. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like it can be difficult to be in
Speaker 1: those negative spaces because it's like we don't really, as
Speaker 1: like a culture, know how to be in that uncomfortable
Speaker 1: place together. We want to move it towards like one
Speaker 1: of those end points, and I think, like what people
Speaker 1: really need when they're in that space because it's a
Speaker 1: complicated problem. You know, nobody knows the answer to, Like
Speaker 1: what do you do if you're feeling depressed? What do
Speaker 1: you do if you're feeling suicidal. I don't know how
Speaker 1: to fix it, but I think like in those moments,
Speaker 1: we can show that we're willing to be there, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely something I had to learn. It
Speaker 1: definitely isn't obvious. You know. There was a friend I
Speaker 1: had who was going through something difficult and he said, like,
Speaker 1: I don't need you to fix it, I just want
Speaker 1: to tell you about it, or tell you what it is.
Speaker 1: And that like really really open my eyes to maybe
Speaker 1: like what my role is as the listener and showed
Speaker 1: me like where that Oh man, I'm wanting to like
Speaker 1: move this along faster because I'm feeling uncomfortable because like
Speaker 1: I see this person I love being in pain, and
Speaker 1: I don't want that to be happening. I feel kind
Speaker 1: of like responsible for stopping it. And so this is
Speaker 1: about like my insecurity with like I'm not providing a
Speaker 1: space where they can feel comfortable and like they are
Speaker 1: being pressured to move faster than they're ready for, faster
Speaker 1: than than they know how. I don't know, And I
Speaker 1: feel like when people have offered that sort of support
Speaker 1: to me, it's been extraordinarily meaningful. Just nice to be
Speaker 1: able to not have to like fix it right away
Speaker 1: and not have to make it okay right now. So
Speaker 1: many people need to hear that, and so many of
Speaker 1: the people who are your fans or admirers who have
Speaker 1: responded online to you, you know, they really felt seen.
Speaker 1: I certainly hope. So. Yeah, but you're also at the
Speaker 1: same time drawing. I mean, you're illustrating these thoughts. And
Speaker 1: you start a drawing when you were relatively young, didn't you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was sort of like a babysitting tool.
Speaker 1: My parents found out that I that I liked it
Speaker 1: and it's something that I could be occupied with. And
Speaker 1: I was a little helly and I was not an
Speaker 1: easy child. My mom could tell you this if I
Speaker 1: asked her to describe, She's like, what we wanted to
Speaker 1: give you back. Well, you know, your new book called
Speaker 1: Solutions and Other Problems is coming out seven years after
Speaker 1: your first book, which had another great title, Hyperbole and
Speaker 1: a half. What does it feel like to work on
Speaker 1: a book over you know those years, especially when your
Speaker 1: first book, you know, got a really great response. So
Speaker 1: I almost finished the book in we were at the
Speaker 1: point where we were like finalizing the table of contents,
Speaker 1: and I scrapped it. I didn't like it. And I
Speaker 1: was at this point in my life where I was
Speaker 1: starting to have like new types of thought and become
Speaker 1: a new person within my own personality. But I hadn't
Speaker 1: quite gotten like comfortable and settled yet in that person,
Speaker 1: and so I didn't know how to say the things
Speaker 1: I wanted to say with the proper nuance. So the
Speaker 1: crucial moment in that chain of like learning what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do there for me was viewing myself like
Speaker 1: a wildlife documentary narrator, you know, like David Attenborough. So
Speaker 1: like if I were following an animal and I were
Speaker 1: trying to describe what the animal was doing, how would
Speaker 1: I say it? That seemed like the proper way to
Speaker 1: talk about my own feelings and a very useful state
Speaker 1: of mind to be in regard to myself when trying
Speaker 1: to describe these since to other people. That's interesting, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been watching a series of documentaries where little cameras
Speaker 1: have been attached inside a like stuffed animals, but really sophisticated.
Speaker 1: So you know, if it's a muskrat, or it's a
Speaker 1: baby lion or a fox or a mongoose or whatever,
Speaker 1: and so they have this little camera in this robotic
Speaker 1: animal that is very much looking like the real thing,
Speaker 1: to the point where the other animals come up and
Speaker 1: examine it and sniff it and try to figure out
Speaker 1: what it is. It's fascinating though, to see the perspective
Speaker 1: of how these other animals are relating to it. So
Speaker 1: you're sort of in the in the perspective of the animal. Yes,
Speaker 1: And that's just like what you just said. I'm just
Speaker 1: kind of thinking of you being the being who is
Speaker 1: both looking inward and outward and trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: honestly describe who you are, and not only who you
Speaker 1: are independently individually, but in connection with, you know, the
Speaker 1: rest of the species. I find that such interesting, It's
Speaker 1: infinitely fascinating. Well, one of the other things that I
Speaker 1: love about what you do is you do have a
Speaker 1: gift of looking at the ordinary and finding the absurdity
Speaker 1: in it. I've been trying to learn, like what my
Speaker 1: favorite types of visual jokes are, and one thing I
Speaker 1: found that consistently cracks me up is when there is
Speaker 1: like a picture of something and then like the name
Speaker 1: of that thing, just sort of like presenting it, like say,
Speaker 1: a picture of a bacteria and then the name of
Speaker 1: the bacteria. If you just look at that information and
Speaker 1: consider it, it makes the bacteria look ridiculous. It makes
Speaker 1: it seem like, here is Helico bacter your pylori as
Speaker 1: we all know, this is what it looks like. It's
Speaker 1: squiggly and like like, I imagine myself being this thing,
Speaker 1: and I would feel really undignified. And so if people
Speaker 1: were calling attention to me by saying this is ali brush,
Speaker 1: I would be like, you know, stop looking at me. Well,
Speaker 1: but I mean, just think about how ridiculous the coronavirus looks. Like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm actually kind of curious to ask you, what's the
Speaker 1: last thing like recently that you found super super funny.
Speaker 1: I find my grandchildren constantly funny. You know, my my
Speaker 1: grandson has a view of life that he views I
Speaker 1: think is very logical. Like the other day, we planted
Speaker 1: a garden and you know, it's sort of the end
Speaker 1: of the season, and I said, well, why don't you
Speaker 1: come help me. We're gonna, you know, pull out all
Speaker 1: the stuff that is dead and you know, then maybe
Speaker 1: we can plant some things for the fall. And he goes,
Speaker 1: I have just discovered bees can sting. You He said,
Speaker 1: it really just like that, like that, just like that.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, yeah, bees can, but you stay
Speaker 1: away from them, and you know you don't bother them,
Speaker 1: they don't bother you. He said, well, you don't know
Speaker 1: every B, so you don't know whether if I stay
Speaker 1: away from every B, every B will leave me alone.
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know that is true. I kind
Speaker 1: of think you're trying to get out of helping me
Speaker 1: in the garden I relate to your grandson. I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I couldn't really tell was this serious or was just
Speaker 1: just a ploy to say no, I don't want to
Speaker 1: go out in the garden. Thank you very much, But
Speaker 1: I just can't tell you how much I have enjoyed
Speaker 1: talking to you. I've enjoyed talking to you too. Thank
Speaker 1: you for being brave, and thank you for being you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for the same thing. Hilary Ali's new book
Speaker 1: is called Solutions and Other Problems. If you're having a
Speaker 1: difficult time managing your mental health right now, or if
Speaker 1: you're living with someone or know someone who is having
Speaker 1: a difficult time, please know that you're not alone. If
Speaker 1: you or someone you know is in distress, you can
Speaker 1: call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline twenty four hours a day,
Speaker 1: seven day is a week at one eight hundred two
Speaker 1: seventh three talk that's one eight hundred two seven three
Speaker 1: eight two five five. In the meantime, let's all keep
Speaker 1: shining a light on mental health and working together to
Speaker 1: shatter the stigma that has surrounded this issue for far
Speaker 1: too long and demand that people get help when they
Speaker 1: are ready to seek it or need it. There is
Speaker 1: still not enough services and support for people and families
Speaker 1: who are confronting mental health issues. You and Me Both
Speaker 1: is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced
Speaker 1: by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from whom
Speaker 1: I Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill,
Speaker 1: Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Vlmorrow. Our engineer is
Speaker 1: Zack McNeice, and original music is by Forest Gray. If
Speaker 1: you like the show, tell someone else about it. You
Speaker 1: can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. Send us your questions
Speaker 1: and comments, or even ideas for future episodes to You
Speaker 1: and Me both pod at gmail dot com. Come back
Speaker 1: next week when we talk about crime and romance in novels.
Speaker 1: That is, with mystery writer Louise Penny and romance writer
Speaker 1: Stacy Abrahams. You won't want to miss listening to both
Speaker 1: of these amazing women