1
00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.

2
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,600
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,

3
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,880
Speaker 1: where I get to talk to people I admire about

4
00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,599
Speaker 1: topics I find fascinating, and today we're tackling a topic

5
00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 1: that has touched just about everyone's lives, mental health. You know,

6
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,920
Speaker 1: part of the reason I wanted to do an episode

7
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 1: on this topic right now is that I know people

8
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:35,480
Speaker 1: are struggling with feelings of isolation, anxiety, loneliness, and even depression.

9
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,440
Speaker 1: It's become kind of a fact of life for so

10
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: many during this pandemic and the economic crisis. In fact,

11
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,839
Speaker 1: one study published in the Journal of the American Medical

12
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: Association found that rates of depression have tripled for adults

13
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,800
Speaker 1: in the US in recent months. I like, I think

14
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,840
Speaker 1: probably all of you have known someone who has suffered

15
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: with mental illness, or whose child or loved one has,

16
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,640
Speaker 1: and you know how painful and difficult it is to

17
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 1: come to terms with that and then defined help. One

18
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,560
Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges about dealing with mental health issues

19
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,080
Speaker 1: is the stigma that it too often carries. I think

20
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of courage to be open and

21
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,679
Speaker 1: candid about personal struggles with mental health and I'm honored

22
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,040
Speaker 1: to talk to three people who have done exactly that.

23
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: I'll be talking with Jason Candor, the former Secretary of

24
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: State of Missouri and a veteran who has publicly shared

25
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 1: his struggles with post traumatic stress disorder or pt S.

26
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: D Ali Brousch, a writer and artists known for her

27
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 1: honest and surprisingly funny descriptions of living with anxiety and depression.

28
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 1: But first, I'm talking with Audra McDonald. Audra McDonald is

29
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 1: a six time Tony Award winner. In fact, she's won

30
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 1: more Tony's for acting than any other performer in history,

31
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 1: and she's the first person to win in every performance category.

32
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 1: I have followed her career. I'm thrilled watching her on

33
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 1: the stage. I'm honored to have gotten to know her

34
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,679
Speaker 1: as a friend. And in addition to being a phenomenal

35
00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:29,240
Speaker 1: actor and singer, she is an outspoken advocate for racial justice,

36
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 1: gender equality, and yes, mental health. She has spoken openly

37
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 1: about surviving an attempted suicide when she was a student

38
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 1: at Juilliard in New York. I am so personally delighted

39
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,400
Speaker 1: to be talking to someone who I admire and I

40
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: am the biggest fan of How you doing in the

41
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 1: middle of the craziness that we're in with the pandemic

42
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 1: and everything. You know, I'm trying to gather the life

43
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,840
Speaker 1: lessons from this time, because there's got to be some

44
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,079
Speaker 1: big universal lesson that we as a human race, they're

45
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,600
Speaker 1: supposed to learn that. I'm supposed to learn as a mom,

46
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: as a wife, as a woman, And I'm really trying

47
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 1: to look for the big lessons and make sure that

48
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 1: I learned them during this time, because otherwise I think

49
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: I'd be going crazy. You know, Yeah, I think that's

50
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 1: a really smart way to think about it. You know,

51
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 1: you come, as I understand it, from a family of

52
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 1: musicians and singers. I think your father, I read, was

53
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 1: a music teacher. I think you had grandmother's maybe on

54
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 1: both sides, who we sides also pianists and piano teachers.

55
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: How did that influence you as a kid? I mean,

56
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 1: do you feel like it's the nature nurture? I mean,

57
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,240
Speaker 1: you were born into this musical family, But clearly not

58
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,240
Speaker 1: everybody born into a musical family as the talent that

59
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: you were born with. So how do you think about that? Well,

60
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, a lot of my experienced growing up

61
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,560
Speaker 1: in such a musical family was that. It was just

62
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 1: a part of our lives. And I don't think it

63
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 1: was even something that everybody considered that they were going

64
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 1: to do for a living. It's just a part of

65
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 1: who we were. You know. My dad had six sisters

66
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 1: and they would sing all over California at different churches.

67
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,680
Speaker 1: They were called the McDonald's sisters, and they would sing

68
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 1: gospel music all over and that's not what any of

69
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,919
Speaker 1: them ended up doing for a living. It's just a

70
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,479
Speaker 1: part of who they are. It was a part of

71
00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 1: our culture. It was a part of what it meant

72
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,840
Speaker 1: to be a McDonald in a way, to be musical,

73
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 1: or even just being an audience member, even as a

74
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: McDonald The McDonald's that didn't necessarily want to be musical

75
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 1: would still sit down on a Sunday afternoon and you know,

76
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: my aunts would all sing, or my grandmother would sit

77
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: down and play the piano and everybody would just fellowship.

78
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 1: And that that's a part of our culture. But my

79
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: family in particular, because I was a very specific type

80
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,040
Speaker 1: of child. I was a very hyperactive child. I was

81
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,520
Speaker 1: a very overdram matic child. I was a child that

82
00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,240
Speaker 1: had a lot of emotion and didn't know how to

83
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,520
Speaker 1: handle it. My family, my mom and my dad especially,

84
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: figured out quite early that music and performance was going

85
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 1: to be away for me to channel and to settle

86
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,919
Speaker 1: myself and focus this energy that I had. So it

87
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 1: absolutely became nurture in that regard, and they looked for

88
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 1: ways for me to plug in this energy. I could

89
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 1: have seen my life going a different way with a

90
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,280
Speaker 1: different set of parents. I could see that that could

91
00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 1: have happened. That's so interesting. I mean, can you remember

92
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: when you first knew that you were a performer. There's

93
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 1: two things that I remember very specifically, two moments. I remember. One,

94
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 1: I sang in the church choir, and I was in

95
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 1: church all day long on Sunday because my mom was

96
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,600
Speaker 1: Episcopalian and my dad was a Andy. So we would

97
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,479
Speaker 1: start the morning at St. James Episcopal Church and my

98
00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: mom would sing in the adult choir, and my sister

99
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,800
Speaker 1: and I sang in the little kid's choir, and then

100
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,039
Speaker 1: once that church was over, we went over to Carter

101
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,200
Speaker 1: A and E, where my grandmother played the organ. When

102
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 1: we're in church all afternoon, so I was starving by

103
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,280
Speaker 1: the time we we get home, but my day was

104
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 1: filled with the Lord on Sundays at any rate. So

105
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: at my mom's church, I remember our time as the

106
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,159
Speaker 1: little kid's choir. We'd get up, turn around and face

107
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,239
Speaker 1: the congregation and sing. And I remember my dad always

108
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: sang to my mom, she's so loud, you know, her

109
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 1: voice is so loud it sticks out. And then I

110
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: remember one early evening after a day of church, where

111
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,839
Speaker 1: my mom and dad, after hearing them talk about that

112
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 1: I was loud, started asking me to match pitches and

113
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,440
Speaker 1: my dad was playing his organ in the music room

114
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,919
Speaker 1: and he'd say, sing this note, and I'd sing it

115
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,599
Speaker 1: and I could. I remember my mom and dad looking

116
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,680
Speaker 1: at each other and there and I knew some kind

117
00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,279
Speaker 1: of communication was going on, but I didn't. And those

118
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,839
Speaker 1: are moments that are still with me in my fifty

119
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 1: year old sort of adult brain in this time right now.

120
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 1: So they must have been moments that really spoke to

121
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,080
Speaker 1: me as saying, oh, there's something there, there is something there. Yeah.

122
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 1: And when I finally did first get on stage with

123
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 1: a little dinner theater that I started in when I

124
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 1: was nine, I remember feeling better settled. You know you

125
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: were meant to do this, Yes, it was who you are. Yeah,

126
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: It's almost like sitting here, as I'm sitting here in

127
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,600
Speaker 1: my closet with all these chords plugged into my computer

128
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,800
Speaker 1: in this microphone and stuff. It's like when you find

129
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 1: the right you know, USB chord for the right port

130
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 1: and it fits and all of a sudden everything turns on.

131
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: That's how it felt for me when I first stepped up.

132
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: Great description. I love that I got plugged in. Yeah,

133
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 1: you got plugged in. And so then you decided you

134
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 1: were going to be professional, and you went to study

135
00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 1: classical voice at Juilliard right law away from home, across

136
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,520
Speaker 1: the country. And I don't know about you. I was

137
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 1: so homesick when I showed up at college. I was

138
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 1: just bereft. I didn't feel like I fit or I

139
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 1: should be there. And I remember calling home collect that's

140
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 1: what we used to do in those days. Those are

141
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 1: my days too. I want to I want to come home.

142
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: And you know, my father, who never wanted me to

143
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: go that far away anyway, he said, okay, great, come home,

144
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: and my mother, no, no, you're gonna stick it out.

145
00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 1: But here you are, all the way across the country

146
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 1: in a very intense dare I say, competitive environment? What

147
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 1: was that it was hard. It was hard because I

148
00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,160
Speaker 1: was this kid from Fresno, California who had gotten accepted

149
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,600
Speaker 1: to Juilliard, and I had always known, this is what

150
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,200
Speaker 1: I want to do. I want to do Broadway. I

151
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,080
Speaker 1: want to be on Broadway, I want to do musicals.

152
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: And I knew the Juilliard was a big school and

153
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,440
Speaker 1: that I should audition. So I thought, I'll audition as

154
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 1: a singer because it seem doing my strong suit. But

155
00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: I think I just didn't realize what I was getting into.

156
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how intense it would be in terms

157
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,720
Speaker 1: of a classical education, because singing classically was not what

158
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 1: I was interested in doing. But I had gotten in,

159
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,720
Speaker 1: and I really didn't research the program enough to understand

160
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 1: that if I got into the classical vocal department, I

161
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,120
Speaker 1: was not going to be able to study the things

162
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,959
Speaker 1: that I wanted to study, which meant no acting, no dance.

163
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,800
Speaker 1: It was basically you know, music theory, soul fish, English

164
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 1: and Italian and German, French dictions, and music history, which

165
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 1: is all great, but that's it wasn't what I was

166
00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: interested in doing. It didn't feed your no. So the

167
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,800
Speaker 1: whole time I was there, I was really really frustrated.

168
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,679
Speaker 1: But I also felt the weight of being, you know,

169
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 1: the local girl who had made it to Juilliard, and

170
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,160
Speaker 1: this is the local girl I wanted to be on Broadway.

171
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 1: So I felt the weight of not being able to

172
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 1: go home, not being able to admit earlier, not being

173
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,200
Speaker 1: able to say I've made a mistake. That's a lot

174
00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,199
Speaker 1: to put on, you know, your shoulders, as what were

175
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,840
Speaker 1: you eighteen nights? I was eighteen. It was a lot

176
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,440
Speaker 1: to handle. And because I had always had theater and

177
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,439
Speaker 1: performing as a way of sort of focusing me and

178
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 1: settling me. And I was now in New York, so

179
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: close to my goal in that I was living in

180
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,680
Speaker 1: New York, living on Broadway, and I had never felt

181
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,160
Speaker 1: further away from my dream. Well, you've been very open

182
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: about this time in your life that you you know,

183
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,400
Speaker 1: you got really depressed. How did you come to grips

184
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,640
Speaker 1: with that? I mean, what did you? I didn't. I

185
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,880
Speaker 1: was just getting more and more despondent and more and

186
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 1: more fearful that I was never gonna get to my goal.

187
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,040
Speaker 1: And I was having boy trouble, and I'm an emotional person.

188
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 1: And so one night, after having my heartbroken by this boy,

189
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,680
Speaker 1: that was really the straw that broke the camel's back.

190
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,320
Speaker 1: I I am. I tried to slit my wrists, you know,

191
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 1: and uh, I reached out for help and was taken

192
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,760
Speaker 1: to a mental hospital and that's where I ended up

193
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 1: for a month. You know, when you think about that

194
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 1: experience for you, and I have other friends who have

195
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 1: had similar experiences, you know, sometimes that cry for help

196
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 1: is the only way to get the attention and support,

197
00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 1: and in your case, you know, time off in a

198
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:39,079
Speaker 1: way to get whatever kind of support, help, encouragement you need.

199
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,079
Speaker 1: So when you came back out, did you feel steadier.

200
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,000
Speaker 1: Had you made some decisions about yourself, like I don't

201
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,199
Speaker 1: want to go back to that classical program. That's not me.

202
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to force myself. Well, a lot of

203
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,800
Speaker 1: things went down. I you know, my parents both flew

204
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: out to see me, and my dad again maybe like

205
00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: you're a dad. My dad had always said, look, Ordery,

206
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,120
Speaker 1: don't have to do this. You can come home at

207
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 1: any time. And what I think in reaching out for help,

208
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 1: because that's what the attempt was, it was a cry

209
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 1: for help. And what it did was it allowed me

210
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,040
Speaker 1: to say I'm not happy here to be honest with

211
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 1: yourselves and to start to really examine what was going

212
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,559
Speaker 1: to bring me happiness. And so at that point when

213
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,800
Speaker 1: I was really able to sort of vocalize, I don't

214
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 1: want to do this. I don't want to be an

215
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,559
Speaker 1: opera singer. I don't want to sing classical music. And

216
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,080
Speaker 1: so I knew I had to finish my degree. How

217
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: I went about finishing it, along with the help of

218
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: the school at that point, was very, very different. It

219
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 1: was one of those things was like, I gotta do

220
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,000
Speaker 1: what we gotta do to get through this, but we

221
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,200
Speaker 1: all know this is not what order is going to do.

222
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,360
Speaker 1: And I think that alleviated some of the the pressure.

223
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 1: And then I got an opportunity to audition for a

224
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: Broadway tour for something during that time, and the dean

225
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 1: of the school said, yeah, go do that, Go do that.

226
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 1: Very encouraging that they said that, Yeah, these were things

227
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: that helped me, you know, get back on track. But

228
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,040
Speaker 1: I needed that derailment. I guess I don't want to say,

229
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 1: because I don't ever want to say, you know, suicide

230
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,319
Speaker 1: is the answer, but I needed to reach out for help. Well,

231
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, I I really appreciate your openness and telling

232
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: this story because there's a really happy ending. I've kind

233
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,120
Speaker 1: of been happy ending because it was, like, what too,

234
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 1: two and a half years after this happened that you

235
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,160
Speaker 1: ended up in carouself. Wasn't it that that close in time?

236
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,920
Speaker 1: It was that close in time. I think it was

237
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,360
Speaker 1: ninety one that I had this episode in my life,

238
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,520
Speaker 1: and it was when I was cast in Carousel, and

239
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: ninety four when it opened on on Broadway at Lincoln Center,

240
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 1: and uh, I won the Tony in June. It's crazy.

241
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,079
Speaker 1: You can't make this up. Are The reason I open

242
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 1: about my experience is because, like you said, Hilary, I

243
00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 1: want to make sure that the other audres out there,

244
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,800
Speaker 1: anybody out there, sees that it does get better, It

245
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,760
Speaker 1: can get better. It's okay to ask for help. And

246
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,120
Speaker 1: I make no bones about the fact that I, you know,

247
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those things, especially in a time

248
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 1: like this, with all this trauma happening and all over

249
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,520
Speaker 1: the planet, in the country, and everything that's happening with

250
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,720
Speaker 1: us politically right now, it still can be very triggering.

251
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 1: Um and so I still have to find ways to

252
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: sort of take care of myself. And I understand, I

253
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,400
Speaker 1: understand the importance of self care now and whatever way

254
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 1: that is that I have to do for myself. But

255
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,680
Speaker 1: I stay open about this topic because I don't want

256
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 1: people to think that they are alone and the only

257
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,440
Speaker 1: ones who have suffered through this. They are not. We're

258
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,760
Speaker 1: taking a quick break, stay with us. Do you find

259
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,000
Speaker 1: that in sort of the you know, the entertainment world,

260
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, people are more sensitive and therefore shoulder a

261
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 1: bigger burden of you know, kind of mental health challenges. Yeah, probably,

262
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 1: I would probably say that it's true. Sometimes it's hard

263
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, be anthropological about your own

264
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 1: culture and I'm talking about my entertainment you know culture,

265
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 1: and a step back and look at it. But if

266
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 1: you think about it that it would it would make sense, right.

267
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 1: It certainly scans that, especially when our job is to

268
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, literally go inside and go deep down. As

269
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 1: Dorri Preven said in a poem where the iguanas play

270
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 1: in your soul, You're going all the way down to

271
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,240
Speaker 1: the bottom to pull it all up and then serve

272
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 1: it up on a silver platter for the rest of

273
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 1: the world to look at and go, yes, I feel that,

274
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 1: or no, that's horrible or whatever it is. So just

275
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,600
Speaker 1: by nature of what we do um as artists. I

276
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: imagine that that makes sense. But having said that, um

277
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 1: maybe in some ways we're more in touch with it.

278
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 1: It makes sense too. I think it would be great

279
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,200
Speaker 1: to have you know, theater, games and things like that

280
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 1: for like neurosurgeons or people who have to work in

281
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 1: combat or or you know, or people on the front

282
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,560
Speaker 1: lines right now and then these hospitals and it might

283
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 1: be good for them to get a lot of this out.

284
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,240
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. I mean, you know,

285
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,440
Speaker 1: and and think about I mean, there's so many performers

286
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 1: artists out of work right now because of the pandemic.

287
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 1: And I almost wish that what you just said could

288
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 1: be operationalized, and maybe it could be done virtually, but

289
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: you you know, you would have actors sort of leading

290
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 1: workshops about Okay, here's here's how you can get in

291
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,680
Speaker 1: touch with your feelings acted out and feel better because

292
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 1: of it. Actually, and having said that, because of what's

293
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,440
Speaker 1: happening with our industry right now, I am concerned about

294
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 1: the people in our industry, and not just the actors

295
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: and actresses, but there's crews, people who work in the

296
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,520
Speaker 1: restaurants that serve these theater districts, you know, the musicians,

297
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,240
Speaker 1: the wardrobe all. It's a really, really frightening time. It is, right,

298
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: it is, and so I imagine there's going to be

299
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma justin whether or not people are

300
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 1: going to see their industry come back at all, and

301
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 1: what it will look like when it does come back.

302
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 1: I have faith in my heart that we will get

303
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,400
Speaker 1: it all back some day because we have to. We

304
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 1: have to as human beings. I don't think we can

305
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,439
Speaker 1: exist without theater. And the Greeks knew it. I mean,

306
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: this is just this is a part of the human

307
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,640
Speaker 1: condition that we need to be able to see all

308
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 1: of it out there in front of us. You know,

309
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 1: a great old dame who I loved so very much,

310
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: so called well one of the greatest actresses. She's passed

311
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,639
Speaker 1: away this past year, but she talked about how, you know,

312
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 1: with the Greek tragedies, you see all that stuff out

313
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,120
Speaker 1: on stage, and it helps you to get it out

314
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 1: so you don't go off exactly right. That's how I feel,

315
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean I went to the

316
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 1: theater after the election for literally therapy, I mean, goodness,

317
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 1: the feelings and the despair and and just the incredible

318
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 1: worry about what was going to happen to our country,

319
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 1: and you know, I would lose myself, you know, going

320
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: to the theater. And I loved what you said. Recently

321
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 1: you were performing in a Carnegie Hall virtual concert, Yes,

322
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 1: and you chose to perform the song sing Happy, Yeah,

323
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,680
Speaker 1: And I loved it because you said, there's something about

324
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,919
Speaker 1: sing happy that is so defiant. Yeah. That could be

325
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,000
Speaker 1: a mantra for life, for performing for this terrible time

326
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: we're living through, for the common trauma that we are,

327
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 1: you know, experiencing. Does it ring true to you in

328
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 1: your life that you can be defiant and choose happiness

329
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 1: despite everything? Absolutely? And in that I give myself permission.

330
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 1: And I've just started to learn this that when that

331
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,199
Speaker 1: means that by choosing happiness, it means you need to

332
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,880
Speaker 1: take time for yourself and choose self care and sit

333
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 1: back and take care of yourself so that you can

334
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,239
Speaker 1: then move forward again. That is a part of it.

335
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 1: That is a part of that defiance exactly right now.

336
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,960
Speaker 1: That is a what is it a revolutionary act? That's

337
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,880
Speaker 1: a revolutionary act. That's care so so, and that's also

338
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 1: something that I want to model for my kids, or

339
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 1: for people who might look up to me, you know,

340
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 1: whoever that might be. I want to model that for

341
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 1: them as well, and and acknowledge that there are some

342
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 1: days that I get up and I fail miserably jail crowd,

343
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,360
Speaker 1: trying to crow. I mean, yeah, you know, you kind

344
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 1: of wander around your house going, I can't believe this,

345
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 1: I can't believe this. I don't know what to do right.

346
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: But then you get then you take the time, and

347
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,239
Speaker 1: then you try again the next day. And even when

348
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: you're in the throes of depression or an anxiety, and

349
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 1: even the fact that you woke up that day you're

350
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 1: at least sitting up, or even if you're in your bed,

351
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,280
Speaker 1: at least you're still in your bed. You're there, You're there.

352
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,439
Speaker 1: That is an act of defiance, the fact that you

353
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,400
Speaker 1: were living through another day. It's something that you made

354
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 1: it through. And that for me, in those dark, dark,

355
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 1: dark dark times in that hospital, that was frightening. And

356
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was I was on all

357
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 1: this medication, I didn't know what I was doing. There

358
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,200
Speaker 1: was a part of each day that I would oak

359
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,880
Speaker 1: my eyes, I go, okay, well I'm still here. I'm

360
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 1: still here. Let's see what this day brings. There is

361
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: hope even in that. I want to acknowledge that for

362
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,919
Speaker 1: the people who may be laid out right now, at

363
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: least they're still here. I just that needs to be said.

364
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 1: It needs to be said, and you are such a

365
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 1: great messenger of that. I am so grateful too. I'm

366
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: just so grateful to you being you. Oh and I

367
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 1: you so thank you. To keep up with Audra and

368
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: all of the fabulous things she's doing. You can find

369
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 1: her on Twitter at Audra equality m C. My next

370
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 1: guest is Jason Candor, someone who I have watched for

371
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: quite a number of years. He served our country in

372
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 1: the military, went to Afghanistan, served both in the Missouri

373
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 1: State House and then as Secretary of State, and in

374
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: his book highly recommend called Outside the Wire Ten Lessons

375
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 1: I've Learned In Everyday Courage, he recounts in a really

376
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: compelling way a lot of the lessons that he's learned

377
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: in his life. But I really think that one of

378
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 1: the most courageous actions that I've seen from anybody is

379
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 1: when you publicly announced that you were dropping out of

380
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: the race for mayor of Kansas City, which you certainly

381
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 1: seemed on track to win. In order to take care

382
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: of your mental health, can you take us back to

383
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: that fall of eighteen, what you were experiencing and thinking

384
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 1: and what led you to make what was a really

385
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 1: courageous decision. Jason, Yeah. Sure. First of all, thanks so

386
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,199
Speaker 1: much for having me. This is a pleasure and I

387
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Yeah, so interesting. I stand by everything

388
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: that's in the book except for the stuff that I

389
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: didn't know wasn't right. Like there's a chapter where I

390
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 1: talked about coming home from Afghanistan, and I sort of

391
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: make the argument to the readers, but really to myself

392
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: that I hadn't done enough for my problems to actually

393
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: be post traumatic stress. And I sanitized what I was

394
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: going through in the book, you know, no secret. Like

395
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: when I was writing that book, I think it was

396
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: very candid for someone who was planning to run for presidents,

397
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: and so it was a little bit sanitized that part.

398
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: And so now I look back and I went through

399
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: about eleven years of living with untreated, undiagnosed post traumatic

400
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: stress and doing what a lot of veterans do, which

401
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: is telling myself, well, I didn't do enough to earn

402
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress. I felt like claiming post traumatic stress

403
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,959
Speaker 1: would be like stolen valor, and I just I couldn't

404
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: do that. And it just got to the point where,

405
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: you know, I decided I wasn't gonna run for president.

406
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: I was going to run for mayor. And it was

407
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: a two part plan. It was I'm gonna seek redemption

408
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: by serving my neighbors, and I'm going to go to

409
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: the v A. I hadn't admit into myself yet it

410
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: was PTSD, but I was like, I need some help,

411
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: and so I did the first part and it was

412
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: going great, Like you said, we were gonna win, but

413
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: I didn't do the second part, and it just got

414
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: worse and worse and worse, and we got to the

415
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: point where we were breaking records. I had raised three

416
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 1: times as much money as the other nine candidates for

417
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: mayor combined me we were gonna win probably by a

418
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: country mile, and I was increasingly thinking about killing myself

419
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: because I had gone through this decade and it was

420
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: getting worse and worse of never getting a good night's

421
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: rest because of violent nightmares, hyper vigilance, emotional numbness, and

422
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 1: then depression, because if you just live with that for

423
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: long enough, it's depressing, and so I finally I called

424
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: the Veterans Crisis Hotline, And what really swung me was

425
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: that the woman on the other end of the phone,

426
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: her tone of voice was so unexpectedly for me casual,

427
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: that I realized I wasn't special, I wasn't different than

428
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: anybody else would dealt with this. I was just another

429
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: call and she had many of these and shift and

430
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: that's when I realized, I, Oh, that's what this is,

431
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: and I decided to stop everything and go to the

432
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: v A. You know, it's so important obviously for yourself

433
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: and your family that you made that call and then

434
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: you followed up on it, but it's also really important

435
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: for people listening to hear you describe that. I've had

436
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: a lot of experience talking to vets, going to v

437
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: A hospitals and programs, and hearing much of what you

438
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: just said being repeated, you know, like, nothing really bad

439
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: happened to me. But I remember so vividly being at

440
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: Walter Reid when I was a senator, visiting vet's from

441
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: New York who had been serving in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

442
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: And I was walking down the hallway and this young

443
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: man came by and he recognized me, and he stopped

444
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: and he said, Mrs Clinton, can I ask you something?

445
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: And I said sure, And he said, you know, I

446
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: got physically injured. They're doing a fine job treating me.

447
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: And he showed me that, you know, part of his

448
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: hand and arm had been badly mangled. He said, but

449
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: where do I go to get my brain back? And

450
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that because he almost repeated verbatim what

451
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: you said. He said, you know, I was on the

452
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: fast track. I could do anything. I was physically in

453
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: great shape. I was mentally, you know, at the top

454
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 1: of my game. He said, Now I can't sleep. My

455
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: wife has to basically write out lists for me about

456
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: what I need to do, one after another. And if

457
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: this young man like you had been walking down the

458
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: street or running for office or working in you know,

459
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: business somewhere, it would have been really hard to recognize

460
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: the pain and suffering that he or you were experiencing.

461
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: So people hear about, you know, post traumatic stress disorder,

462
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 1: but they don't know what it looks like. How did

463
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: it impact your day to day life. You've said you

464
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: had violent dreams. Were those like every night they wake

465
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: you up? Yeah? Now that I had therapy and I've

466
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: dealt with the underlying trauma. I get these nightmares about

467
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: once every couple of weeks, and they're not that bad anymore,

468
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: and I know I know what to do for them.

469
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: For about a decade, it was every single night, like

470
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: I went about a decade without a good night's sleep.

471
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: And now that I can, man, it's awesome, Like it's

472
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: like a superpower. And anyway, yeah, I would get these

473
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: nightmares and it is kind of interesting how the brain works.

474
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: So when I first came back, for the first few years,

475
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: it would replay situations from my deployment. And for context,

476
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: I was an intelligence officer and my role was to

477
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: investigate corruption and espionage by Afghan officials, basically figure out

478
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: which bad guys were pretending to be good guys. And

479
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: what that meant was I would go out and I'd

480
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: have meetings with folks, and I'd be just be me

481
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: and my translator most of the time, and nobody would

482
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: know where I was, and I'd be gone for a

483
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: long periods of time and very vulnerable. And so that's

484
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: what one of the things I really struggled with when

485
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: I came back was, you know, I had friends who

486
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: were a lot of firefights, and here I was. I

487
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: went to meetings and it took therapy at the v

488
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: A for somebody to explain to me you were exposed

489
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: with no possibility of being saved for hours at a time,

490
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: and it's traumatic. Anyway, my my nightmares would be I'd

491
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: be in some of those meetings, but in the dreams

492
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: they would kidnap me. So that's how it started. And

493
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: then a few years in I decided I must be

494
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: getting better because the dreams no longer take place in Afghanistan,

495
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: which was actually, yeah, I found out later in therapy

496
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: that that's actually like really bad because what it meant

497
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: was now the dreams were the same sort of threat,

498
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: except the environ of the dream was my house, and

499
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: the people who were under threat were my wife, my son,

500
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: you know, people like that. And I remember my therapist

501
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: the v A really just blew my mind when he

502
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: was like, no, it's bad when that happens. Because one

503
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: of your other symptoms is hyper vigilance. You think you're

504
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: in danger all the time. You think it's really happening

505
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: in your life because every night, what you're unconscious, it

506
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: does And one of the things that is really missed

507
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: is that there's a really important sort of brainwashing that

508
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: happens when you go into the military. And I don't

509
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: even mean this in a derogatory way. For me to

510
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: keep going into those meetings with people who might want

511
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: to cut my head off on YouTube over and over again,

512
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: or for you know, an infantry soldier to keep going

513
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: on patrols, they have to grind into you from the

514
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: day you get off the bus at basic that everybody

515
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: else is doing harder stuff than you, and this is

516
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: no big deal. It's important you have to do that.

517
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: The problem we have is we have not really figured

518
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 1: out a way to flip that switch off, which is

519
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: why people like me spend a decade saying everybody else

520
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: has it worse. Somebody has to sit you down on

521
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: your way out and be like, Okay, you need to

522
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: know that was crazy, Like that's not normal. You're going

523
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: to need help, But instead you just that switches still on.

524
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely true in the military for the

525
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: reasons you've just described. Has to be ingrained in you

526
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: if you're going to be putting yourself at risk and

527
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: endanger in all kinds of setting. But I think it's

528
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: also true more generally for mental health. You know, people

529
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: need to hear, Hey, wait a minute, that's not normal.

530
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: The child who was abused to then starts having flashbacks

531
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: as a young adult. You know, hey, that's to be expected.

532
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: We can help you. You know, I think about your

533
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: being in Afghanistan, and when I was reading the book,

534
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: I've been in Afghanistan six seven times, maybe long more,

535
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: several times when I was senator, several times when I

536
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: was Secretary of State. I might spend the you know,

537
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: two nights, three nights there. But I really resonated to

538
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: what you were describing about the hyper vigilance, because even

539
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: though you know, I'm there to have conversations with you know, officials,

540
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: but occasionally, you know, they'd bring in a warlord who

541
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: we were trying to influence. You sit across from these guys,

542
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: you knew they were lying to you, you knew that

543
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: they were personally responsible for murdering a bunch of people,

544
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: and you just could feel your body reacting. And when

545
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: you're in that situation, as a military officer or as

546
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: a civilian, you have to be a bit hyper vigilant.

547
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: I mean you are looking around for okay, where is

548
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: the exit? I remember on my first trip to Cobble

549
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: going in. You know, at that time we thought, wow,

550
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, this is great, We're doing so well, and

551
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: all the rest of it, going into what was still

552
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: functioning as a center of commerce and having dinner at

553
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: a restaurant, going to a clothing store where I you know,

554
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: I bought a really nice embroidered afghan coat. But next

555
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: time I went back, I wouldn't have done that. I mean,

556
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: we were sleeping in containers on the premises of the embassy,

557
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: and and we were coming in for you know, screw

558
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: drive down landings in the airport. I mean, you just

559
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: begin to feel the danger, and anybody who hasn't been

560
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: there doesn't maybe understand why all of a sudden you

561
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: you are looking for where's the nearest exit, And is

562
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: that guy's finger on the trigger of the automatic weapon

563
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: just because that's where it rests, or is there something

564
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: else about to happen. So, you know, I think when

565
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: you describe how you lived for ten years basically in

566
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: that hyper vigilant state, as though you were walking into

567
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: a warlord's office or driving down the road to another

568
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: intel meeting, I really got it. Well. So after you've

569
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: got the response calling into the VA What came next

570
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: for you? So I went to the v A in

571
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: Kansas City. So I show up and I'm thinking, Okay,

572
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna walk in, and it's the same government that

573
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: had all my information a few years ago. Like I'm

574
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: gonna say, hey, Jason Army, you know, here's myself. Can

575
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: I get in? You know? And I look, I'm somebody

576
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: who had been around all this stuff. From a policy perspective,

577
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: maybe I should have known better, but that ain't how

578
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: it worked. Unfortunately, everybody I've ever encountered at the v

579
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: A individually has been fantastic. I mean everybody there. They

580
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: just want to serve vets. But as you know, the

581
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: bureaucracy and some of the rules that are put in

582
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: place from on high are really unhelpful. And in my case,

583
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: I ran into one which I think they've since gotten

584
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: rid of, but said that if you come in within

585
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: five years of your combat deployment, will enroll you in

586
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: the system, no questions asked. But if you are beyond

587
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: that five years, then you have to like prove that

588
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: you had a traumatic experience and that you need this

589
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: this treatment, which you know, I just had gone through

590
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: a decade of trying to tell myself in the world

591
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: that I was fine, and now I needed to like

592
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: prove that I wasn't, which was weird and also like

593
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: for somebody who you know, was in not the best

594
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: state of mind. You know. Look, I had a phone

595
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: full of influential contacts, a Georgetown law degree, and high

596
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: level government experience, and I was overwhelmed. So anyway, the

597
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: v A. I saw an emergency psyche resident that day,

598
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: but I was basically told that will be a few

599
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: months before I can get into weekly therapy if my

600
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: claim is accepted. And I was like, that ain't gonna work.

601
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: And so I contacted a buddy of mine who had

602
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: started this organization, Veteran Community Project in Kansas City, and

603
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: I had toured at Sack sweeks earlier and was blown away.

604
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: And Veterans Community Project Real Quick does two things. One

605
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: helps any vet navigate the system or do anything else

606
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: they need. And to fight's veterans homelessness for the village

607
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: of tiny houses. That's been really successful. So six weeks earlier,

608
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: I'm on a v I P tour is the next

609
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: mayor And now I call and I tell my buddy

610
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: what's going on and he's like, come on in, And

611
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: I walked through the doors of the Outreach Center like

612
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: any of the other thousands of events who have in

613
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: Kansas City. They handled my paperwork in. A week later,

614
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: I was in weekly therapy at the v A and

615
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: it made all the difference for me, Like quite literally, Yeah,

616
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: when somebody is ready to seek help, they need to

617
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: get that help as soon as possible, like one maybe

618
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: two chances with him, that's it. Yeah, you know, I

619
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: want to go back for a minute to your announcement

620
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: dropping out where you admit it look instead of fundraising.

621
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: I find myself on the phone with the vas Veterans

622
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: Crisis Line, tearfully conceding that I've had suicidal thoughts. It

623
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: wasn't the first time I've been hiding that from myself.

624
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: You know, I was trying to convince myself and I

625
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: wasn't sharing the full picture. I still have nightmares. I'm depressed.

626
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: You know, that was an incredibly honest letter explaining why

627
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: you were dropping out of the race. How scary was

628
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: that to do? It was really scary. It was scary,

629
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: and it wasn't scary. It wasn't scary in the sense

630
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: that I had arrived at the place where I finally

631
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: no longer cared. I mean I cared, but I had

632
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: a wife and a son, and I was worried that

633
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: I was going to hurt myself. And so finally something

634
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: had come along that had become more important to me

635
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: than my career. And the reason my career had been

636
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: so important is because it had been my coping mechanism.

637
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: I had self medicated with throwing myself into this search

638
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: for redemption. I care about my country and I care

639
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: about service, and I did it for those reasons, but

640
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: I probably threw myself into it with a wild abandon.

641
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: I did because it was the thing that took my

642
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 1: mind off being inside my own mind. And so finally

643
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: I was momentarily relieved of that because I knew how

644
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: important this was. But at the same time, I didn't

645
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: know anything about post traumatic stress. I didn't have any

646
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: idea if I could get better. All I knew was

647
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: that the one thing in my life that was objectively

648
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: going really well was my career, and I was hitting

649
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: the self destruct button on that, and so that was scary.

650
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: You know. In a October nineteen New York Times article

651
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: about you, I read something that really made an impact.

652
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: You know again, it said for more than a decade.

653
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: Mr Kander said, he refused to acknowledge to himself or

654
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: anyone else that these might be signs of post traumatic stress.

655
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I did enough to earn it,

656
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: he said, looking back. Do you think that still is

657
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: one of the principal reasons why vets are not seeking help?

658
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that basically summarizes the biggest

659
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: obstacle they don't feel worthy to seek help? Yeah, now

660
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: I know it does, because I've heard from so many

661
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: since my announcement, and I've had so many people tell

662
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: me that the most important part of what I said

663
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: was I didn't feel like I earned it. Uh. In fact,

664
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: when I was over there, there were two other gentlemen

665
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: who I worked with who did a very similar job

666
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: to me, and they were really the only people I

667
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: knew who were experiencing Afghanistan the way I was, and

668
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: they were part of what was called the Technical Human

669
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: Intelligence Team. Basically, they went out and they met with people,

670
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: and sometimes we did it together, but a lot of

671
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: times we all did it separately, and I didn't stay

672
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: in touch with them afterwards, And that's sort of a

673
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: lesson for people. If you go through something traumatic, stay

674
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: in touch with the other people who did because you

675
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: can learn from each other. So we all went our

676
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: separate ways. One of those gentlemen a year after we

677
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: came back, died in a one vehicle accident, which I've

678
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: now learned when that happens with combat veterans frequently, it's

679
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: not an accident, unfortunately. And then the other gentleman, I finally,

680
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: after I'd gone through treatment, reached out to. This was

681
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: about eight months ago that I reached out to him,

682
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: and he was about to retire from active duty, and

683
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: we had a conversation that led to him finally going

684
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: in and getting treatment. And one of the things he

685
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: told me was he was like, look, Jason, after you left,

686
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: like I had people who I tried to put into

687
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: your job. And he told me literally he had somebody

688
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: who quit the first day because they got back and

689
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: they had urinated on themselves. Like he was like, what

690
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: we did was really frightening and it was crazy and

691
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: people don't do it anymore. But the thing is is like,

692
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: what if he and I had talked, because he's had

693
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: his own struggles and is now on the mend But

694
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: what if he and I and the other gentleman, what

695
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: if we had just stayed in touch? And that's what

696
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: I realized now. Is that why it's so important that

697
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: I said I had felt like I didn't earn it,

698
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: because I've just I've heard from not just veterans who

699
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: say they felt the same way, but I hear from

700
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: people who, you know, had a bad car accident or

701
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: went through cancer treatment or anything like that. And those

702
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: people often will start with me by feeling like they

703
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: have to, you know, have a disclaimer and say, you know,

704
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: I wasn't in a war or anything. And I always

705
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: stop him and I say, you know, you know, your

706
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: brain has no idea what I did, and it doesn't care.

707
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: Like I spent ten years comparing my own trauma to

708
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: other people's and it was a giant waste of my

709
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: own time. M That's a really really good point. Can

710
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: you describe a little bit about the actual therapy? What

711
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: was it for you that worked? Yeah? First, I would

712
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: start with what my biggest misconception about therapy was when

713
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: I went in, which was I always imagined that it

714
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: was sort of passive, like getting an I V drip,

715
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: Like you just go in and you sit down and

716
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: you talk, and that's supposed to but what I didn't

717
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: understand until I started is that it's really active. It's

718
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: a lot of work, not just when you're in there.

719
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: And so what it was for me was a combination

720
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: of a couple of things. One was something called prolonged

721
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: exposure therapy, which was vocalizing the memories. And the way

722
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: my therapist at least did it was I would use

723
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: the voice memo on my phone and I would sit there.

724
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: He would have me close my eyes and I would just,

725
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: for about forty five minutes, have to tell him the

726
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: story of, you know, a traumatic experience, an intrusive or

727
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: disruptive memory, and he would each time act like he'd

728
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: never heard it. And then in between and this is

729
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,479
Speaker 1: where we get to the homework. In between sessions, I'd

730
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: have to put in my headphones, closed my eyes, wasn't

731
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 1: allowed to multitask or do anything else. Every single day

732
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: between sessions, I had to listen to the thing, and

733
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: I listened to myself tell the story, and that would

734
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: unlock additional details and that sort of thing about it.

735
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: And then I'd go in and do it again, and

736
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: I'd add those. The other homework I had was what

737
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: he called in vivo therapy, which was just no longer

738
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: avoiding the stuff I had avoided. War movies, books, articles

739
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: about Afghanistan, sitting in a restaurant with my back to

740
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: the door, being in a crowded place with my family,

741
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. And I'd have to do

742
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: it again for forty five minutes at the time, and

743
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: as I did it, I got better and better, and

744
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: as I listened to the stories more. What would happen

745
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: is I remember the first memory we did. We did

746
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: like four or five sessions with it, and then I

747
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: came in and I said in my therapist, I was like,

748
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm bored with this one. And

749
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: I remember he laughed really loud and he was like, great,

750
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: that's the goal. He was like bored and missed the

751
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: goal and he was like, he's like, congratulations, we can

752
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: do a new memory. I like that. That's really sightful.

753
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: It was huge because it meant I had gone from

754
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: it having a grip on me and me sweating and

755
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: getting emotional in my heart racing when I told it too,

756
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm just bored with this. We'll be right back. Well,

757
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: so now you're the national expansion director for the Veterans

758
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 1: Community Project, which is a group that provides transitional housing

759
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: and assistance to homeless veterans. How did you get started

760
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: with that work? So that's actually that's the organization that

761
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: I went to that you walked into. Yeah. And then

762
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: after about six seven months or so into weekly therapy,

763
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: where I was starting to do quite a lot better,

764
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: I started hanging around Veterans Community Project, and I was

765
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: kind of mentoring the leadership on the fact that they

766
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: had been asked by communities all over the country to

767
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: expand because they had eradicated veterans homelessness, street homelessness in

768
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: Kansas City and just unremarkable things. And so I'm kind

769
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: of mentoring them through it. And then finally my buddy Brian,

770
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: the CEO, he said to me, hey, man, how about

771
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: you just come here and do this. You've created a

772
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: national organization before you know, you're not working at the

773
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: moment and uh, And so that's how I did. So

774
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: now I'm the president Veterans Community Project, and you know,

775
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: we are now under construction in Longmont, Colorado, outside Denver.

776
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: We're about to be under construction at St. Louis, and

777
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: I expect we will be up and running on that

778
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: in about five additional major cities starting next year. That

779
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: is terrific. It is something that I really really applaud

780
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: you and your whole team and colleagues for because you're

781
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: coming up with a model that I hope can be

782
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: taken to scale because the need is so enormous. So

783
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: I have to end by asking you, so, what do

784
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: you think lies in your future? Or are you just

785
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: going day by day these days? You know? The funny

786
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: thing is I um, and you're very familiar with the

787
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: art as well of dodging the question, which I'm not

788
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: about to do. I'm just kind of making fun of

789
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: myself from before, you know, like when people ask me

790
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: like you're gonna run for president? I had a really

791
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: good stock answer which was, well, I'm trying to focus

792
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: on making sure we still have elections right now, and

793
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: like that worked really well, but like the answer was yeah,

794
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: I think I'm probably going to and I just didn't

795
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: say that. And the thing is, I used to just

796
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: think all the time about what was next for me

797
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: because the present sucked. Now life is I'm really enjoying

798
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: it and I really love what I'm doing Inventors Community Project,

799
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: and so to me, it's what's next for me is

800
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: continuing that. But then the other thing is because the

801
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: other way I usually get this question, and I appreciate

802
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: you not asking it this way, one practitioner to another.

803
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: I greatly appreciate it not doing that. Are you coming

804
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: back because I think what you and I understand is

805
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: being on the ballot is not the only way to

806
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: be back. Absolutely yes, And so you know, I have

807
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: my podcast Majority fifty four, where our mission is to

808
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: help people have conversations with conservatives where they convinced them

809
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: but without losing the relationships. I love doing that and

810
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm part of the conversation. I feel

811
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: like I have a platform, and I feel like I'm back,

812
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: and I'm my dog is agreeing with me, Yeah, cheering

813
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 1: for you actually yeah. Um so the ups guys here

814
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: and that cannot be tolerated. But I'm enjoying this and

815
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: I feel like I am back, and maybe one day

816
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: I'll run for something again. I don't know, but I

817
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: genuinely don't have any plans to do it right now

818
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: because I'm just having fun. Oh, my friend, that is

819
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: the single best answer, thank you, And you're making a difference,

820
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: and isn't that what we all hope for? I mean,

821
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: that really is at bottom what makes for a purposeful,

822
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: meaningful life, and you're doing it. Thank you so much

823
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: for saying all that, and right back at you. I

824
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: don't think you need the validation, but but I just

825
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: here here in our house, we we really appreciate you,

826
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: and thanks, thank you for having this conversation with me.

827
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that will be hearing a lot

828
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: more from Jason in the meantime. Check out his best

829
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: selling book Outside the Wire and his podcast Majority fifty

830
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: four wherever you listen to podcasts. My last guest is

831
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: author and artist Ali brush Back. In two thousand and nine,

832
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: when she was twenty four years old, Ali created the

833
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: blog Hyperbole and a Half. She quickly became an Internet

834
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: sensation because people loved her hilarious observations about things like

835
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: staying up way too late, falling down an online rabbit hole,

836
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what her dogs are thinking.

837
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: She turned that blog into a best selling book, complete

838
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: with her signature line drawings. She calls her style a

839
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: very precise crudeness. One day after the release, of her

840
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: first book, Alie's blog posts just stopped, and for nearly

841
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: seven years, she disappeared from the Internet. For her fans,

842
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: her silence was concerning, especially because she had written about

843
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: her battles with depression. But earlier this year, Ali made

844
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: her return with her second book, Solutions and Other Problems.

845
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: In it, she delves into everything from growing up as

846
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: a creative and very quirky kid, to living with depression,

847
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: to loss and grief. These days, Ali lives with her

848
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: husband in a small town outside Bend, Oregon. She's a

849
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: self described recluse who spends most of her time writing, drawing,

850
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: playing online games, and reading up on math and science.

851
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: I was really impressed with how Ali takes the sometimes painful,

852
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: sometimes funny twists and turns of her inner life and

853
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: translates that into pictures and stories to share with the

854
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: rest of us. Those of you who have already come

855
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: across her work know how brave and original it is,

856
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: and I wanted to talk to her about all of that.

857
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: Part of the reason I was drawn to you is

858
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: how brave you have have been. You've been really brave

859
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: about Thank you for saying that, talking about difficult issues.

860
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: You know, depression most well known of the things you've

861
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: dealt with, but you also make people laugh. I mean,

862
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: you try to capture the full range of you, and

863
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: then there's something for everybody to connect to. You know,

864
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: for instance, in hyperbole and a half you write that

865
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: depression is like having a bunch of dead fish, but

866
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: no one around you will acknowledge that the fish are dead. Instead,

867
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: they offer to help you look for the fish, to

868
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: try to help you figure out, you know, why they disappeared.

869
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: Talking about depression in that way almost giving it not

870
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: just a language but a visualization. I think it's part

871
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: of the reason you produce such an outpouring of response

872
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: when people read that and read about what you've gone through. Yeah,

873
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: I feel like it can be difficult to be in

874
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: those negative spaces because it's like we don't really, as

875
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: like a culture, know how to be in that uncomfortable

876
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: place together. We want to move it towards like one

877
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: of those end points, and I think, like what people

878
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: really need when they're in that space because it's a

879
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: complicated problem. You know, nobody knows the answer to, Like

880
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: what do you do if you're feeling depressed? What do

881
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: you do if you're feeling suicidal. I don't know how

882
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: to fix it, but I think like in those moments,

883
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: we can show that we're willing to be there, right.

884
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely something I had to learn. It

885
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 1: definitely isn't obvious. You know. There was a friend I

886
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: had who was going through something difficult and he said, like,

887
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: I don't need you to fix it, I just want

888
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: to tell you about it, or tell you what it is.

889
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: And that like really really open my eyes to maybe

890
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: like what my role is as the listener and showed

891
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: me like where that Oh man, I'm wanting to like

892
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: move this along faster because I'm feeling uncomfortable because like

893
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 1: I see this person I love being in pain, and

894
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: I don't want that to be happening. I feel kind

895
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: of like responsible for stopping it. And so this is

896
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: about like my insecurity with like I'm not providing a

897
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: space where they can feel comfortable and like they are

898
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: being pressured to move faster than they're ready for, faster

899
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: than than they know how. I don't know, And I

900
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: feel like when people have offered that sort of support

901
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: to me, it's been extraordinarily meaningful. Just nice to be

902
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 1: able to not have to like fix it right away

903
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: and not have to make it okay right now. So

904
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: many people need to hear that, and so many of

905
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: the people who are your fans or admirers who have

906
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: responded online to you, you know, they really felt seen.

907
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: I certainly hope. So. Yeah, but you're also at the

908
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: same time drawing. I mean, you're illustrating these thoughts. And

909
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: you start a drawing when you were relatively young, didn't you.

910
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was sort of like a babysitting tool.

911
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: My parents found out that I that I liked it

912
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: and it's something that I could be occupied with. And

913
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: I was a little helly and I was not an

914
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: easy child. My mom could tell you this if I

915
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: asked her to describe, She's like, what we wanted to

916
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 1: give you back. Well, you know, your new book called

917
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: Solutions and Other Problems is coming out seven years after

918
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: your first book, which had another great title, Hyperbole and

919
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: a half. What does it feel like to work on

920
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: a book over you know those years, especially when your

921
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: first book, you know, got a really great response. So

922
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: I almost finished the book in we were at the

923
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: point where we were like finalizing the table of contents,

924
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: and I scrapped it. I didn't like it. And I

925
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: was at this point in my life where I was

926
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: starting to have like new types of thought and become

927
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 1: a new person within my own personality. But I hadn't

928
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: quite gotten like comfortable and settled yet in that person,

929
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: and so I didn't know how to say the things

930
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: I wanted to say with the proper nuance. So the

931
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 1: crucial moment in that chain of like learning what I'm

932
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: trying to do there for me was viewing myself like

933
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: a wildlife documentary narrator, you know, like David Attenborough. So

934
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: like if I were following an animal and I were

935
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 1: trying to describe what the animal was doing, how would

936
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: I say it? That seemed like the proper way to

937
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: talk about my own feelings and a very useful state

938
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: of mind to be in regard to myself when trying

939
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: to describe these since to other people. That's interesting, you know,

940
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: I've been watching a series of documentaries where little cameras

941
00:50:54,239 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: have been attached inside a like stuffed animals, but really sophisticated.

942
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: So you know, if it's a muskrat, or it's a

943
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: baby lion or a fox or a mongoose or whatever,

944
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: and so they have this little camera in this robotic

945
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: animal that is very much looking like the real thing,

946
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: to the point where the other animals come up and

947
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: examine it and sniff it and try to figure out

948
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: what it is. It's fascinating though, to see the perspective

949
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: of how these other animals are relating to it. So

950
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: you're sort of in the in the perspective of the animal. Yes,

951
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: And that's just like what you just said. I'm just

952
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: kind of thinking of you being the being who is

953
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 1: both looking inward and outward and trying to, you know,

954
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: honestly describe who you are, and not only who you

955
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: are independently individually, but in connection with, you know, the

956
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: rest of the species. I find that such interesting, It's

957
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: infinitely fascinating. Well, one of the other things that I

958
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: love about what you do is you do have a

959
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: gift of looking at the ordinary and finding the absurdity

960
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: in it. I've been trying to learn, like what my

961
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: favorite types of visual jokes are, and one thing I

962
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: found that consistently cracks me up is when there is

963
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 1: like a picture of something and then like the name

964
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: of that thing, just sort of like presenting it, like say,

965
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: a picture of a bacteria and then the name of

966
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: the bacteria. If you just look at that information and

967
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,479
Speaker 1: consider it, it makes the bacteria look ridiculous. It makes

968
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: it seem like, here is Helico bacter your pylori as

969
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: we all know, this is what it looks like. It's

970
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: squiggly and like like, I imagine myself being this thing,

971
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 1: and I would feel really undignified. And so if people

972
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: were calling attention to me by saying this is ali brush,

973
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 1: I would be like, you know, stop looking at me. Well,

974
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: but I mean, just think about how ridiculous the coronavirus looks. Like. Yeah,

975
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm actually kind of curious to ask you, what's the

976
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 1: last thing like recently that you found super super funny.

977
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: I find my grandchildren constantly funny. You know, my my

978
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: grandson has a view of life that he views I

979
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: think is very logical. Like the other day, we planted

980
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: a garden and you know, it's sort of the end

981
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: of the season, and I said, well, why don't you

982
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: come help me. We're gonna, you know, pull out all

983
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: the stuff that is dead and you know, then maybe

984
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: we can plant some things for the fall. And he goes,

985
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: I have just discovered bees can sting. You He said,

986
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: it really just like that, like that, just like that.

987
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: And I said, well, yeah, bees can, but you stay

988
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: away from them, and you know you don't bother them,

989
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: they don't bother you. He said, well, you don't know

990
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: every B, so you don't know whether if I stay

991
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: away from every B, every B will leave me alone.

992
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know that is true. I kind

993
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: of think you're trying to get out of helping me

994
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: in the garden I relate to your grandson. I couldn't.

995
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,479
Speaker 1: I couldn't really tell was this serious or was just

996
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: just a ploy to say no, I don't want to

997
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: go out in the garden. Thank you very much, But

998
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: I just can't tell you how much I have enjoyed

999
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: talking to you. I've enjoyed talking to you too. Thank

1000
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: you for being brave, and thank you for being you.

1001
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: Thank you for the same thing. Hilary Ali's new book

1002
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: is called Solutions and Other Problems. If you're having a

1003
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: difficult time managing your mental health right now, or if

1004
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,720
Speaker 1: you're living with someone or know someone who is having

1005
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: a difficult time, please know that you're not alone. If

1006
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 1: you or someone you know is in distress, you can

1007
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline twenty four hours a day,

1008
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 1: seven day is a week at one eight hundred two

1009
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: seventh three talk that's one eight hundred two seven three

1010
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,879
Speaker 1: eight two five five. In the meantime, let's all keep

1011
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: shining a light on mental health and working together to

1012
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: shatter the stigma that has surrounded this issue for far

1013
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: too long and demand that people get help when they

1014
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: are ready to seek it or need it. There is

1015
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: still not enough services and support for people and families

1016
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: who are confronting mental health issues. You and Me Both

1017
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced

1018
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from whom

1019
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: I Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill,

1020
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Vlmorrow. Our engineer is

1021
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: Zack McNeice, and original music is by Forest Gray. If

1022
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 1: you like the show, tell someone else about it. You

1023
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I

1024
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1025
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. Send us your questions

1026
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: and comments, or even ideas for future episodes to You

1027
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: and Me both pod at gmail dot com. Come back

1028
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: next week when we talk about crime and romance in novels.

1029
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: That is, with mystery writer Louise Penny and romance writer

1030
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 1: Stacy Abrahams. You won't want to miss listening to both

1031
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 1: of these amazing women