Speaker 1: You hear that sound, that's the sound of grapes being crushed,
Speaker 1: And that one simple act seems subtle enough, but in
Speaker 1: fact it's what makes wine wine instead of just grape juice.
Speaker 1: From the moment the juice spills from inside of the
Speaker 1: skins of the spherical fruit, the transition from grape juice
Speaker 1: to wine is already underway. At this point, there are
Speaker 1: basically two ways this could go. The person making the
Speaker 1: wine could decide to add yeast, or they could decide
Speaker 1: to do nothing. And the ambient yeast that is on
Speaker 1: your skin, in your hair, in the air, and pretty
Speaker 1: much everywhere will come into contact with the grape juice.
Speaker 1: And the juice for now is just fruit juice. It's
Speaker 1: sweet and sugar filled. Now, yeast, yeast love sugar, and
Speaker 1: immediately begin happily munching all of it. Now, of course,
Speaker 1: after we eat, we also create byproduct, and the same
Speaker 1: is true for the magical yeast. But thereby product is
Speaker 1: carbon dioxide and ethanol, which is better known as alcohol.
Speaker 1: So from this moment on there are decisions to be
Speaker 1: made about how to raise the wine, and one decision
Speaker 1: that could be made is whether to do anything else
Speaker 1: at all. And when the choice to do nothing in
Speaker 1: both the vineyard where the grapes are grown or in
Speaker 1: the cellar where the wine is made, that decision to
Speaker 1: do nothing is called non interventionist winemaking, or more commonly,
Speaker 1: natural wine. Nothing added, nothing taken away. We turn now
Speaker 1: to our producer, Selene. Selene is in Berkeley, California, embarking
Speaker 1: on a guided wine tasting with a fabulous natural winemaker,
Speaker 1: Jared Brandt of Donkey and Goat Winery. I'm at Donkey
Speaker 1: and Goat Winery and where they're making award winning red
Speaker 1: and white blends of natural wine. So I think when
Speaker 1: you when you taste, and one of the beauties of
Speaker 1: blind tasting, it's really hard to get the grapes of
Speaker 1: rital right. I'm chatting with Jared Brandt, who's the co
Speaker 1: owner and co winemaker, chaste it. Yeah, I was gonna
Speaker 1: say it's it's it's merlot of all things. It tastes
Speaker 1: like there's definitely a cider component. I get that. So
Speaker 1: it's a petrol lot natural now or a pet gnat,
Speaker 1: which means what we did is why it was fermenting.
Speaker 1: We bottled it, so it does have bubbles, not a
Speaker 1: lot of bubbles, and instead of adding sugar to make
Speaker 1: the bubbles and yeast, we just use the naturally occurring
Speaker 1: sugar in the grapes like we do it. Why it's fermenting.
Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of like a cherry
Speaker 1: jolly rancher, Like there's a cherry and also like a
Speaker 1: candied apple, like you know those apples that you get
Speaker 1: like dipped in caramel. I guess it's not candy to apple.
Speaker 1: It's a caramel apple. I get like that kind of flavor.
Speaker 1: There's definitely like a the apple. Yeah, it's really clear
Speaker 1: to me. Is natural wine more connected to tear war
Speaker 1: did The idea of not manipulating the wine, which I
Speaker 1: think is called a natural wine, is very specif to
Speaker 1: the ter war. If you're not trying to kind of
Speaker 1: change the flavor profile or enhance it, what the land
Speaker 1: gave you in the grapevines gave you should hopefully come
Speaker 1: through in the in the glass. We got started doing
Speaker 1: skin mass rated white wines because we had a vineyard
Speaker 1: where it was very hard to get the grapes to
Speaker 1: go the wine to go dry naturally because of the
Speaker 1: deficit of nutrients when you pressed it off the skins immediately,
Speaker 1: and if you left it on the skins, it would
Speaker 1: go dry in fifteen days instead of like a year.
Speaker 1: And so to me, it's more ter war specific because
Speaker 1: you don't have to do any manipulation to get it
Speaker 1: to go dry. But I think that's kind of a
Speaker 1: a debate. Um, we do do a lot of foot
Speaker 1: stopping where we want to give it a light skin contact. Um,
Speaker 1: so like we'll foot stop it like at eight am
Speaker 1: and then at twelve o'clock will press it off, and
Speaker 1: so that gives it some of the tannins from the skins,
Speaker 1: but it's not over the top. And and feet are
Speaker 1: really great. I mean, it's kind of a miraculous thing,
Speaker 1: which is hard to replicate because like your foot actually
Speaker 1: has a lot of pressure, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: the pad of your foot is soft, so you can't
Speaker 1: break seeds, and so like if you're trying to to
Speaker 1: break up a grade, but you don't want any of
Speaker 1: the heart seeds, how harsh tannins in them, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure you can really do it mechanically, Like you get rollers,
Speaker 1: but they're not really that soft and you see broken seeds.
Speaker 1: But if you do it with your foot. You don't
Speaker 1: never see that. And then in top of it gets
Speaker 1: even more complex if you do the stem. If you
Speaker 1: run a stem through a roller to break it up,
Speaker 1: it breaks it up all the way and you get
Speaker 1: all these weird, harsh, really green flavors more than anything else.
Speaker 1: If you do that same process with a foot, you
Speaker 1: don't get those. Can you share your thoughts in perspective
Speaker 1: about natural wine movement in California and has it been
Speaker 1: well received? So this is a two fold answer for me,
Speaker 1: because we have been making wine in the same style
Speaker 1: since two thousand and three in California and two thousand
Speaker 1: two we did in France. So until two thousand, probably
Speaker 1: probably eleven or twelve, California hated it. Californias were into
Speaker 1: very big, right, highly manipulated wine and being an overly general,
Speaker 1: giant generalization. But there was years where we sold more
Speaker 1: wine in Sweden than we did in California. And I
Speaker 1: think in general, Californians at that stage and the wine
Speaker 1: industry in general in the United States was really seeking
Speaker 1: these really big wines and to successfully the kind of
Speaker 1: the components of making a really big red they typically
Speaker 1: had a little bit of residual sugar, and so as
Speaker 1: a result, they couldn't be made naturally because if you
Speaker 1: left the residual sugar on them and you didn't do
Speaker 1: something to stabilize it chemically effectively, it would referment and bottle.
Speaker 1: So I think startying in two thousand ten eleven, there
Speaker 1: was a radical shift, and I think this is worldwide.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in general are more
Speaker 1: interested in authentic food too, simpler wine, knowing the producer,
Speaker 1: knowing that it wasn't it wasn't made in a factory,
Speaker 1: it was made in a chemist shop that it's made
Speaker 1: by like you know, sun and water and soil. Napa's
Speaker 1: is weird anomally, like we work with organic vineyards and
Speaker 1: there's very few organic vineyards of NAPPA. And it's this
Speaker 1: anomaly to me because like they have infinite money. Um
Speaker 1: and maybe not right now because I think the wine
Speaker 1: markets going through a radical change, but five years ago,
Speaker 1: you know, they could sell as much wine as they made,
Speaker 1: and to be organic there's a little bit more risk.
Speaker 1: That said, I think NAPA was kind of late to
Speaker 1: the natural wine world. Like if I thought of iconic
Speaker 1: natural wines from California, they're probably wouldn't be one from
Speaker 1: Nappa on the list. I'm Alex our next guest, Alex
Speaker 1: Sholkin and gelt Shaha, our husband and wife making wines
Speaker 1: in the Adelaide Hills of South Australia. So Australia is huge,
Speaker 1: huge continent. Um Adelaide Hills. Where is it exactly and
Speaker 1: what are some notable things about Australia. So well, it's
Speaker 1: South Australia's self explanatory. Adelaide Hills isn't area I guess
Speaker 1: around Adelaide itself slightly more elevated. There is a lot
Speaker 1: of well fair bit of grapes grown in South Australia.
Speaker 1: In fact, in Australia, every state has a nickname, and
Speaker 1: South Australia is the wine state. Within the wine state,
Speaker 1: there are a few different wine regions and Adelaide Hills
Speaker 1: is arguably more focused towards high end grape growing. And
Speaker 1: so it happened that natural one in Australia started happening
Speaker 1: in this area, probably less than ten kilometers from where
Speaker 1: we are right now, about fifteen years ago, and the
Speaker 1: rest is history. Basically it's still it's kind of an
Speaker 1: epicenter of natural one in Australia, But of course now
Speaker 1: it's a lot, a lot wider and natural one is
Speaker 1: made in every state wherever they grow grapes, which is
Speaker 1: every state except the Northern Territory. And I remember back
Speaker 1: in the let's say late nineties, early two thousands, UM,
Speaker 1: Australian wine had a reputation internationally of being really inexpensive,
Speaker 1: really high in alcohol, made with kind of overly ripened grapes.
Speaker 1: And of course the yellowtail explosion happened around the same
Speaker 1: time in which they became one of the largest wine
Speaker 1: brands in the world, and many other multinational wine companies
Speaker 1: were kind of chasing them and chasing this standard style
Speaker 1: of high alcohol, kind of sweet, powerful wine. Um. Obviously
Speaker 1: that is so far away from the kind of wine
Speaker 1: that you all are making. So can you help us
Speaker 1: understand in a broader sense what the transition was that
Speaker 1: occurred in the Australian wine market over the last fifteen years.
Speaker 1: It's not unique to wine or natural wine or anything.
Speaker 1: Really happens in every aspect of life and industries and
Speaker 1: production in etcetera. Things take a direction and then they
Speaker 1: accelerate in the duration. I guess. People get excited and
Speaker 1: then it just goes a little bit too far, and
Speaker 1: then sooner or later people start realizing that it's in
Speaker 1: fact gone too far, and then the pendulum starts moving
Speaker 1: backwards in the in the opposite direction. Right now, we're
Speaker 1: just it's just moving away from those um very extracted,
Speaker 1: very right, just the way you described wines. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be surprised if in twenty years time we'll find ourselves
Speaker 1: in the big, big ripeness zone again. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: really good point. Actually, the cyclical nature of wine consumers
Speaker 1: isn't so much about them being wine consumers but just
Speaker 1: human beings. Um So, then the point is well taken
Speaker 1: that I think is a good perspective for us to
Speaker 1: consider natural wine as kind of uh organic outgrowth or
Speaker 1: the other side of the pendulum of as you say,
Speaker 1: what the global wine market was a couple of decades ago.
Speaker 1: Um So, then, in your own words, can you all
Speaker 1: help us understand when we're talking about natural wine, what
Speaker 1: is it that we're talking about. It's it's a bit
Speaker 1: of both. Really. When we arrived to Australia ten years ago,
Speaker 1: we didn't we were not aware of natural one and
Speaker 1: not many people friendly were. But we were we were
Speaker 1: lack enough to run into it. Basically as soon as
Speaker 1: we came here and we got really excited by that.
Speaker 1: Didn't take long for us to get stuck into it
Speaker 1: and start doing it ourselves. It's been it's only been
Speaker 1: eight years, but the idea of natural one has evolved
Speaker 1: a lot. We have evolved a lot, and we're still
Speaker 1: figuring it out and adapting and learning. And I mean,
Speaker 1: what was it about natural wine production that felt resonant
Speaker 1: with your own ideas or sensibilities that made you want
Speaker 1: to start producing wine this way? Many of them would
Speaker 1: follow them quite phatically, whereas in our world, the only
Speaker 1: rule that we follow is that the rules do not exist.
Speaker 1: There is not a single rule that applies universally to
Speaker 1: every single wine. We try to live more sustainably in
Speaker 1: our life. Generally speaking, we try to consume food and
Speaker 1: pretty much everything that comes in a more sustainable way.
Speaker 1: And I think that's part of this evolution of natural one.
Speaker 1: What Alex was speaking before, it's not just about the
Speaker 1: way the wine is gon and made, and it comes
Speaker 1: to furniture that you buy, and it comes to everything
Speaker 1: pretty much. And now we're going into this mode of
Speaker 1: more handmade more produces a more self expression as well,
Speaker 1: So something that is a bit more fluid in a way,
Speaker 1: and I think it speaks to both of us in
Speaker 1: what we make. Do you sell most of your wine
Speaker 1: in Australia, We do, and that's a choice. We do
Speaker 1: export wine because we want to share I guess, our
Speaker 1: ideas and are one with the rest of the world.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, from the sustainability of point of view,
Speaker 1: we don't quite like the idea of our one accumulating
Speaker 1: all those food miles. So I guess we try and balances.
Speaker 1: Send a bit, send a bit, but not too much.
Speaker 1: And we export to Japan, to Denmark, to Taiwan and
Speaker 1: Korea and in the US, and we actually send a
Speaker 1: favorite of wine to the US. Our distributor is a
Speaker 1: Test Bryant. When I say we send a fair bite,
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not a lot on jail scheme of things,
Speaker 1: but it is a lot for us because we don't
Speaker 1: make that much wine. Well. Test Bryant is a really
Speaker 1: good friend of mine. I love her and I was
Speaker 1: She's actually the first person who introduced me to your wines,
Speaker 1: as she developed an entire import company here in the
Speaker 1: US based on natural winemakers from Australia. UH, And so
Speaker 1: I wasn't even aware really of the breadth of this
Speaker 1: movement in Australia until UM. I trust that you are
Speaker 1: in good hands in working with her. Have you heard, UH,
Speaker 1: how much of the discourse around natural wine uh um
Speaker 1: is kind of has this contentious or confrontational UM tone.
Speaker 1: Is that something that is unique to the US in
Speaker 1: this moment or are you also seeing that from the
Speaker 1: press or maybe some maliers or consumers in Australia who
Speaker 1: might find the natural wine movement as perhaps frivolous UM
Speaker 1: and the best case, or maybe even UM harmful to
Speaker 1: some other producers UM in the worst case, for instance,
Speaker 1: one of the common refrains here in the States, UH
Speaker 1: is that you know, without any standards, UM, that perhaps
Speaker 1: the lack of consistency you know, among the producers who
Speaker 1: are making wines naturally could in effect undermine UM people
Speaker 1: who have the same environ mental principles. A lack of
Speaker 1: consistency among those who make natural wine cannot undermine those
Speaker 1: who don't make natural wine, because it would, if anything,
Speaker 1: it would undermine those who do make natural wine. The
Speaker 1: way I see it, when it comes to UM, people
Speaker 1: who choose not to position themselves as natural wine, well,
Speaker 1: we don't quite position ourselves as natural one. That's just
Speaker 1: what we do, and that's what we are very happy
Speaker 1: to explain what we do. It appears on our website
Speaker 1: in a very transparent fashion, and the word natural is
Speaker 1: not is not used there very often. So basically, in
Speaker 1: a way, natural wine is something that people would refer
Speaker 1: to our wine as, but it's not necessarily the term
Speaker 1: we use off that often. We're really not trying to
Speaker 1: undermine anyone else's effort, and we do we do respect
Speaker 1: our colleagues who choose to make wine in a different
Speaker 1: way that that's perfectly fine, But we do see wine
Speaker 1: making is an art form and because of that, and
Speaker 1: mainly because of that, we really try and move away
Speaker 1: as far as we can from any standardizations, because that
Speaker 1: would be that there would do many kinds of an
Speaker 1: art form m hm. So in summary, then you are
Speaker 1: basically saying that you know, natural wine is a term
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a rigid or standard definition. UM. Natural
Speaker 1: wine in its essence is really about a non intervening
Speaker 1: style of winemaking that adds nothing at all to the
Speaker 1: fermenting grapes. It is just the purest expression of wine
Speaker 1: without any inputs and the output being, you know, whatever
Speaker 1: the grape has to say. Do you think that overall
Speaker 1: this natural wine movement and this language around natural wine
Speaker 1: has it been more harmful or helpful and furthering the
Speaker 1: wine drinking world and probably benefits the whole but not
Speaker 1: only the consumers but also the winemaking side, because more
Speaker 1: and more conventional winemakers would get in touch with us
Speaker 1: and just come and hang around and taste the wines,
Speaker 1: and it would be very clear that they're trying to
Speaker 1: suss out what is going on and is it really
Speaker 1: true that we can get away with that kind of
Speaker 1: a winemaking and getting away with things is probably key
Speaker 1: here at quoting a famous person who said art is
Speaker 1: what you you can get away with, it really drives
Speaker 1: more conventional wine makers to explore those horizons further. So
Speaker 1: I think in that regard it's it's a very positive
Speaker 1: impact on the whole industry. I love that, um, but
Speaker 1: I do think that one part of it that is
Speaker 1: not commented on enough. Gaila, you mentioned the implication being well,
Speaker 1: what is a natural wine or what are the things
Speaker 1: that are added to other wines that we might not
Speaker 1: be aware of, and as we're talking about it as
Speaker 1: a trend, it actually kind of sets up a change
Speaker 1: in consumer behavior and patterns, which in effect sets up
Speaker 1: a change in behavior for conventional producers. But um, I
Speaker 1: believe that one of the upsides of the movement that
Speaker 1: you're speaking to is that it has actually really, in
Speaker 1: a very short amount of time, significantly shift consumer curiosity,
Speaker 1: shifted the behavior. And to hear that you now have
Speaker 1: conventional winemakers coming to you all asking about the viability
Speaker 1: of making ones naturally, I'm actually really encouraged by that outcome,
Speaker 1: regardless of how we get there. Really, and as Jared
Speaker 1: Brandt from Donkey and Goat says, I think it's it's
Speaker 1: more like just it's just like kind of returning to
Speaker 1: an older school way of doing things with last manipulation.
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week to hear more from some
Speaker 1: olier Amanda Smelts as we continue our exploration and learn
Speaker 1: about what natural wine is, how it's made, and importantly
Speaker 1: what it represents. I'll also be taking you on a
Speaker 1: journey very special and personal to me. We will go
Speaker 1: to the birthplace of natural wine, which is in fact
Speaker 1: the birthplace of wine itself. And then I will lead
Speaker 1: you on a special tasting to share with you what
Speaker 1: I've learned throughout my career as a recovering samlier and
Speaker 1: you can sample and enjoy a glass of wine along
Speaker 1: with me. So stay tuned for next week's episode of
Speaker 1: Point of Origin. Yeah, thank you to all of our
Speaker 1: guests today on the show, to Jared Brandt and Alex
Speaker 1: Schulkin and Galite Shaff in the Adelaide Hills of Australia special.
Speaker 1: Thanks to my business partner who makes all things possible
Speaker 1: at Whetstone, are co founder Melissa she Thanks mel. Thank
Speaker 1: you to Selene Glazier, who is our lead producer. To
Speaker 1: Cat Hong our editor, to Havin Obasa Lassa and Quentin
Speaker 1: Lebou our production interns. To our friends at iHeart Radio
Speaker 1: for helping us bring you this podcast. To Gabrielle Collins,
Speaker 1: our supervising producer, engineer J. J. Pauseway and executive producer
Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotis. I'm your host, the Origin Forager Steven Saderfield,
Speaker 1: and we will be back here next week with more
Speaker 1: from Whetstone Magazine's Point of Origin podcast