WEBVTT -  Natural Wine: It’s Alive!

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<v Speaker 1>You hear that sound, that's the sound of grapes being crushed,

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<v Speaker 1>And that one simple act seems subtle enough, but in

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<v Speaker 1>fact it's what makes wine wine instead of just grape juice.

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<v Speaker 1>From the moment the juice spills from inside of the

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<v Speaker 1>skins of the spherical fruit, the transition from grape juice

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<v Speaker 1>to wine is already underway. At this point, there are

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<v Speaker 1>basically two ways this could go. The person making the

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<v Speaker 1>wine could decide to add yeast, or they could decide

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<v Speaker 1>to do nothing. And the ambient yeast that is on

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<v Speaker 1>your skin, in your hair, in the air, and pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much everywhere will come into contact with the grape juice.

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<v Speaker 1>And the juice for now is just fruit juice. It's

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<v Speaker 1>sweet and sugar filled. Now, yeast, yeast love sugar, and

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<v Speaker 1>immediately begin happily munching all of it. Now, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>after we eat, we also create byproduct, and the same

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<v Speaker 1>is true for the magical yeast. But thereby product is

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<v Speaker 1>carbon dioxide and ethanol, which is better known as alcohol.

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<v Speaker 1>So from this moment on there are decisions to be

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<v Speaker 1>made about how to raise the wine, and one decision

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<v Speaker 1>that could be made is whether to do anything else

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<v Speaker 1>at all. And when the choice to do nothing in

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<v Speaker 1>both the vineyard where the grapes are grown or in

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<v Speaker 1>the cellar where the wine is made, that decision to

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<v Speaker 1>do nothing is called non interventionist winemaking, or more commonly,

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<v Speaker 1>natural wine. Nothing added, nothing taken away. We turn now

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<v Speaker 1>to our producer, Selene. Selene is in Berkeley, California, embarking

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<v Speaker 1>on a guided wine tasting with a fabulous natural winemaker,

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<v Speaker 1>Jared Brandt of Donkey and Goat Winery. I'm at Donkey

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<v Speaker 1>and Goat Winery and where they're making award winning red

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<v Speaker 1>and white blends of natural wine. So I think when

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<v Speaker 1>you when you taste, and one of the beauties of

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<v Speaker 1>blind tasting, it's really hard to get the grapes of

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<v Speaker 1>rital right. I'm chatting with Jared Brandt, who's the co

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<v Speaker 1>owner and co winemaker, chaste it. Yeah, I was gonna

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<v Speaker 1>say it's it's it's merlot of all things. It tastes

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<v Speaker 1>like there's definitely a cider component. I get that. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's a petrol lot natural now or a pet gnat,

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<v Speaker 1>which means what we did is why it was fermenting.

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<v Speaker 1>We bottled it, so it does have bubbles, not a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of bubbles, and instead of adding sugar to make

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<v Speaker 1>the bubbles and yeast, we just use the naturally occurring

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<v Speaker 1>sugar in the grapes like we do it. Why it's fermenting.

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<v Speaker 1>It reminds me a little bit of like a cherry

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<v Speaker 1>jolly rancher, Like there's a cherry and also like a

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<v Speaker 1>candied apple, like you know those apples that you get

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<v Speaker 1>like dipped in caramel. I guess it's not candy to apple.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a caramel apple. I get like that kind of flavor.

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<v Speaker 1>There's definitely like a the apple. Yeah, it's really clear

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<v Speaker 1>to me. Is natural wine more connected to tear war

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<v Speaker 1>did The idea of not manipulating the wine, which I

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<v Speaker 1>think is called a natural wine, is very specif to

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<v Speaker 1>the ter war. If you're not trying to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>change the flavor profile or enhance it, what the land

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<v Speaker 1>gave you in the grapevines gave you should hopefully come

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<v Speaker 1>through in the in the glass. We got started doing

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<v Speaker 1>skin mass rated white wines because we had a vineyard

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<v Speaker 1>where it was very hard to get the grapes to

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<v Speaker 1>go the wine to go dry naturally because of the

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<v Speaker 1>deficit of nutrients when you pressed it off the skins immediately,

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<v Speaker 1>and if you left it on the skins, it would

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<v Speaker 1>go dry in fifteen days instead of like a year.

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<v Speaker 1>And so to me, it's more ter war specific because

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have to do any manipulation to get it

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<v Speaker 1>to go dry. But I think that's kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>a debate. Um, we do do a lot of foot

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<v Speaker 1>stopping where we want to give it a light skin contact. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>so like we'll foot stop it like at eight am

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<v Speaker 1>and then at twelve o'clock will press it off, and

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<v Speaker 1>so that gives it some of the tannins from the skins,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's not over the top. And and feet are

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<v Speaker 1>really great. I mean, it's kind of a miraculous thing,

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<v Speaker 1>which is hard to replicate because like your foot actually

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<v Speaker 1>has a lot of pressure, but at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>the pad of your foot is soft, so you can't

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<v Speaker 1>break seeds, and so like if you're trying to to

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<v Speaker 1>break up a grade, but you don't want any of

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<v Speaker 1>the heart seeds, how harsh tannins in them, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>sure you can really do it mechanically, Like you get rollers,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're not really that soft and you see broken seeds.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you do it with your foot. You don't

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<v Speaker 1>never see that. And then in top of it gets

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<v Speaker 1>even more complex if you do the stem. If you

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<v Speaker 1>run a stem through a roller to break it up,

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<v Speaker 1>it breaks it up all the way and you get

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<v Speaker 1>all these weird, harsh, really green flavors more than anything else.

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<v Speaker 1>If you do that same process with a foot, you

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<v Speaker 1>don't get those. Can you share your thoughts in perspective

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<v Speaker 1>about natural wine movement in California and has it been

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<v Speaker 1>well received? So this is a two fold answer for me,

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<v Speaker 1>because we have been making wine in the same style

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<v Speaker 1>since two thousand and three in California and two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>two we did in France. So until two thousand, probably

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<v Speaker 1>probably eleven or twelve, California hated it. Californias were into

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<v Speaker 1>very big, right, highly manipulated wine and being an overly general,

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<v Speaker 1>giant generalization. But there was years where we sold more

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<v Speaker 1>wine in Sweden than we did in California. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think in general, Californians at that stage and the wine

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<v Speaker 1>industry in general in the United States was really seeking

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<v Speaker 1>these really big wines and to successfully the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the components of making a really big red they typically

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<v Speaker 1>had a little bit of residual sugar, and so as

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<v Speaker 1>a result, they couldn't be made naturally because if you

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<v Speaker 1>left the residual sugar on them and you didn't do

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<v Speaker 1>something to stabilize it chemically effectively, it would referment and bottle.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think startying in two thousand ten eleven, there

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<v Speaker 1>was a radical shift, and I think this is worldwide.

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of people in general are more

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<v Speaker 1>interested in authentic food too, simpler wine, knowing the producer,

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<v Speaker 1>knowing that it wasn't it wasn't made in a factory,

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<v Speaker 1>it was made in a chemist shop that it's made

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<v Speaker 1>by like you know, sun and water and soil. Napa's

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<v Speaker 1>is weird anomally, like we work with organic vineyards and

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<v Speaker 1>there's very few organic vineyards of NAPPA. And it's this

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<v Speaker 1>anomaly to me because like they have infinite money. Um

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe not right now because I think the wine

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<v Speaker 1>markets going through a radical change, but five years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, they could sell as much wine as they made,

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<v Speaker 1>and to be organic there's a little bit more risk.

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<v Speaker 1>That said, I think NAPA was kind of late to

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<v Speaker 1>the natural wine world. Like if I thought of iconic

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<v Speaker 1>natural wines from California, they're probably wouldn't be one from

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<v Speaker 1>Nappa on the list. I'm Alex our next guest, Alex

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<v Speaker 1>Sholkin and gelt Shaha, our husband and wife making wines

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<v Speaker 1>in the Adelaide Hills of South Australia. So Australia is huge,

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<v Speaker 1>huge continent. Um Adelaide Hills. Where is it exactly and

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<v Speaker 1>what are some notable things about Australia. So well, it's

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<v Speaker 1>South Australia's self explanatory. Adelaide Hills isn't area I guess

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<v Speaker 1>around Adelaide itself slightly more elevated. There is a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of well fair bit of grapes grown in South Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, in Australia, every state has a nickname, and

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<v Speaker 1>South Australia is the wine state. Within the wine state,

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<v Speaker 1>there are a few different wine regions and Adelaide Hills

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<v Speaker 1>is arguably more focused towards high end grape growing. And

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<v Speaker 1>so it happened that natural one in Australia started happening

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<v Speaker 1>in this area, probably less than ten kilometers from where

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<v Speaker 1>we are right now, about fifteen years ago, and the

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<v Speaker 1>rest is history. Basically it's still it's kind of an

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<v Speaker 1>epicenter of natural one in Australia, But of course now

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<v Speaker 1>it's a lot, a lot wider and natural one is

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<v Speaker 1>made in every state wherever they grow grapes, which is

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<v Speaker 1>every state except the Northern Territory. And I remember back

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<v Speaker 1>in the let's say late nineties, early two thousands, UM,

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<v Speaker 1>Australian wine had a reputation internationally of being really inexpensive,

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<v Speaker 1>really high in alcohol, made with kind of overly ripened grapes.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course the yellowtail explosion happened around the same

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<v Speaker 1>time in which they became one of the largest wine

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<v Speaker 1>brands in the world, and many other multinational wine companies

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<v Speaker 1>were kind of chasing them and chasing this standard style

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<v Speaker 1>of high alcohol, kind of sweet, powerful wine. Um. Obviously

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<v Speaker 1>that is so far away from the kind of wine

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<v Speaker 1>that you all are making. So can you help us

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<v Speaker 1>understand in a broader sense what the transition was that

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<v Speaker 1>occurred in the Australian wine market over the last fifteen years.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not unique to wine or natural wine or anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Really happens in every aspect of life and industries and

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<v Speaker 1>production in etcetera. Things take a direction and then they

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<v Speaker 1>accelerate in the duration. I guess. People get excited and

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<v Speaker 1>then it just goes a little bit too far, and

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<v Speaker 1>then sooner or later people start realizing that it's in

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<v Speaker 1>fact gone too far, and then the pendulum starts moving

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<v Speaker 1>backwards in the in the opposite direction. Right now, we're

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<v Speaker 1>just it's just moving away from those um very extracted,

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<v Speaker 1>very right, just the way you described wines. I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>be surprised if in twenty years time we'll find ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>in the big, big ripeness zone again. Yeah, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>really good point. Actually, the cyclical nature of wine consumers

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<v Speaker 1>isn't so much about them being wine consumers but just

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<v Speaker 1>human beings. Um So, then the point is well taken

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<v Speaker 1>that I think is a good perspective for us to

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<v Speaker 1>consider natural wine as kind of uh organic outgrowth or

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<v Speaker 1>the other side of the pendulum of as you say,

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<v Speaker 1>what the global wine market was a couple of decades ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Um So, then, in your own words, can you all

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<v Speaker 1>help us understand when we're talking about natural wine, what

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<v Speaker 1>is it that we're talking about. It's it's a bit

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<v Speaker 1>of both. Really. When we arrived to Australia ten years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>we didn't we were not aware of natural one and

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<v Speaker 1>not many people friendly were. But we were we were

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<v Speaker 1>lack enough to run into it. Basically as soon as

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<v Speaker 1>we came here and we got really excited by that.

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<v Speaker 1>Didn't take long for us to get stuck into it

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<v Speaker 1>and start doing it ourselves. It's been it's only been

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<v Speaker 1>eight years, but the idea of natural one has evolved

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. We have evolved a lot, and we're still

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<v Speaker 1>figuring it out and adapting and learning. And I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>what was it about natural wine production that felt resonant

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<v Speaker 1>with your own ideas or sensibilities that made you want

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<v Speaker 1>to start producing wine this way? Many of them would

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<v Speaker 1>follow them quite phatically, whereas in our world, the only

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<v Speaker 1>rule that we follow is that the rules do not exist.

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<v Speaker 1>There is not a single rule that applies universally to

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<v Speaker 1>every single wine. We try to live more sustainably in

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<v Speaker 1>our life. Generally speaking, we try to consume food and

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much everything that comes in a more sustainable way.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's part of this evolution of natural one.

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<v Speaker 1>What Alex was speaking before, it's not just about the

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<v Speaker 1>way the wine is gon and made, and it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to furniture that you buy, and it comes to everything

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much. And now we're going into this mode of

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<v Speaker 1>more handmade more produces a more self expression as well,

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<v Speaker 1>So something that is a bit more fluid in a way,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think it speaks to both of us in

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<v Speaker 1>what we make. Do you sell most of your wine

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia, We do, and that's a choice. We do

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<v Speaker 1>export wine because we want to share I guess, our

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<v Speaker 1>ideas and are one with the rest of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, from the sustainability of point of view,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't quite like the idea of our one accumulating

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<v Speaker 1>all those food miles. So I guess we try and balances.

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<v Speaker 1>Send a bit, send a bit, but not too much.

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<v Speaker 1>And we export to Japan, to Denmark, to Taiwan and

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<v Speaker 1>Korea and in the US, and we actually send a

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<v Speaker 1>favorite of wine to the US. Our distributor is a

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<v Speaker 1>Test Bryant. When I say we send a fair bite,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not. It's not a lot on jail scheme of things,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is a lot for us because we don't

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<v Speaker 1>make that much wine. Well. Test Bryant is a really

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<v Speaker 1>good friend of mine. I love her and I was

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<v Speaker 1>She's actually the first person who introduced me to your wines,

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<v Speaker 1>as she developed an entire import company here in the

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<v Speaker 1>US based on natural winemakers from Australia. UH, And so

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't even aware really of the breadth of this

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<v Speaker 1>movement in Australia until UM. I trust that you are

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<v Speaker 1>in good hands in working with her. Have you heard, UH,

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<v Speaker 1>how much of the discourse around natural wine uh um

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of has this contentious or confrontational UM tone.

0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Is that something that is unique to the US in

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 1>this moment or are you also seeing that from the

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 1>press or maybe some maliers or consumers in Australia who

0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 1>might find the natural wine movement as perhaps frivolous UM

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.680
<v Speaker 1>and the best case, or maybe even UM harmful to

0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:39.000
<v Speaker 1>some other producers UM in the worst case, for instance,

0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 1>one of the common refrains here in the States, UH

0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:50.120
<v Speaker 1>is that you know, without any standards, UM, that perhaps

0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.080
<v Speaker 1>the lack of consistency you know, among the producers who

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:58.680
<v Speaker 1>are making wines naturally could in effect undermine UM people

0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.200
<v Speaker 1>who have the same environ mental principles. A lack of

0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.600
<v Speaker 1>consistency among those who make natural wine cannot undermine those

0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.560
<v Speaker 1>who don't make natural wine, because it would, if anything,

0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 1>it would undermine those who do make natural wine. The

0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:16.280
<v Speaker 1>way I see it, when it comes to UM, people

0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 1>who choose not to position themselves as natural wine, well,

0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.679
<v Speaker 1>we don't quite position ourselves as natural one. That's just

0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 1>what we do, and that's what we are very happy

0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.560
<v Speaker 1>to explain what we do. It appears on our website

0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.720
<v Speaker 1>in a very transparent fashion, and the word natural is

0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 1>not is not used there very often. So basically, in

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:45.160
<v Speaker 1>a way, natural wine is something that people would refer

0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.520
<v Speaker 1>to our wine as, but it's not necessarily the term

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.040
<v Speaker 1>we use off that often. We're really not trying to

0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.960
<v Speaker 1>undermine anyone else's effort, and we do we do respect

0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.960
<v Speaker 1>our colleagues who choose to make wine in a different

0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.520
<v Speaker 1>way that that's perfectly fine, But we do see wine

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 1>making is an art form and because of that, and

0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 1>mainly because of that, we really try and move away

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<v Speaker 1>as far as we can from any standardizations, because that

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.800
<v Speaker 1>would be that there would do many kinds of an

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:21.840
<v Speaker 1>art form m hm. So in summary, then you are

0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:26.560
<v Speaker 1>basically saying that you know, natural wine is a term

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:33.840
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't have a rigid or standard definition. UM. Natural

0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:40.800
<v Speaker 1>wine in its essence is really about a non intervening

0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.919
<v Speaker 1>style of winemaking that adds nothing at all to the

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:51.320
<v Speaker 1>fermenting grapes. It is just the purest expression of wine

0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:56.040
<v Speaker 1>without any inputs and the output being, you know, whatever

0:18:56.080 --> 0:19:10.639
<v Speaker 1>the grape has to say. Do you think that overall

0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:16.159
<v Speaker 1>this natural wine movement and this language around natural wine

0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 1>has it been more harmful or helpful and furthering the

0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:30.479
<v Speaker 1>wine drinking world and probably benefits the whole but not

0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.120
<v Speaker 1>only the consumers but also the winemaking side, because more

0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 1>and more conventional winemakers would get in touch with us

0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.480
<v Speaker 1>and just come and hang around and taste the wines,

0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.679
<v Speaker 1>and it would be very clear that they're trying to

0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:47.320
<v Speaker 1>suss out what is going on and is it really

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.719
<v Speaker 1>true that we can get away with that kind of

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.720
<v Speaker 1>a winemaking and getting away with things is probably key

0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.439
<v Speaker 1>here at quoting a famous person who said art is

0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.000
<v Speaker 1>what you you can get away with, it really drives

0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:10.880
<v Speaker 1>more conventional wine makers to explore those horizons further. So

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 1>I think in that regard it's it's a very positive

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.439
<v Speaker 1>impact on the whole industry. I love that, um, but

0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.359
<v Speaker 1>I do think that one part of it that is

0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:27.640
<v Speaker 1>not commented on enough. Gaila, you mentioned the implication being well,

0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.080
<v Speaker 1>what is a natural wine or what are the things

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.679
<v Speaker 1>that are added to other wines that we might not

0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 1>be aware of, and as we're talking about it as

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.480
<v Speaker 1>a trend, it actually kind of sets up a change

0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:47.280
<v Speaker 1>in consumer behavior and patterns, which in effect sets up

0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:53.879
<v Speaker 1>a change in behavior for conventional producers. But um, I

0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.640
<v Speaker 1>believe that one of the upsides of the movement that

0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.560
<v Speaker 1>you're speaking to is that it has actually really, in

0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:06.120
<v Speaker 1>a very short amount of time, significantly shift consumer curiosity,

0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 1>shifted the behavior. And to hear that you now have

0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:15.960
<v Speaker 1>conventional winemakers coming to you all asking about the viability

0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:21.200
<v Speaker 1>of making ones naturally, I'm actually really encouraged by that outcome,

0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:31.800
<v Speaker 1>regardless of how we get there. Really, and as Jared

0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.080
<v Speaker 1>Brandt from Donkey and Goat says, I think it's it's

0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.520
<v Speaker 1>more like just it's just like kind of returning to

0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 1>an older school way of doing things with last manipulation.

0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.040
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back next week to hear more from some

0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:49.440
<v Speaker 1>olier Amanda Smelts as we continue our exploration and learn

0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:54.000
<v Speaker 1>about what natural wine is, how it's made, and importantly

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.480
<v Speaker 1>what it represents. I'll also be taking you on a

0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.439
<v Speaker 1>journey very special and personal to me. We will go

0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.679
<v Speaker 1>to the birthplace of natural wine, which is in fact

0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.200
<v Speaker 1>the birthplace of wine itself. And then I will lead

0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.560
<v Speaker 1>you on a special tasting to share with you what

0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:16.000
<v Speaker 1>I've learned throughout my career as a recovering samlier and

0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 1>you can sample and enjoy a glass of wine along

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:23.359
<v Speaker 1>with me. So stay tuned for next week's episode of

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:32.919
<v Speaker 1>Point of Origin. Yeah, thank you to all of our

0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.840
<v Speaker 1>guests today on the show, to Jared Brandt and Alex

0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:41.240
<v Speaker 1>Schulkin and Galite Shaff in the Adelaide Hills of Australia special.

0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Thanks to my business partner who makes all things possible

0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:49.000
<v Speaker 1>at Whetstone, are co founder Melissa she Thanks mel. Thank

0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.359
<v Speaker 1>you to Selene Glazier, who is our lead producer. To

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 1>Cat Hong our editor, to Havin Obasa Lassa and Quentin

0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 1>Lebou our production interns. To our friends at iHeart Radio

0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.040
<v Speaker 1>for helping us bring you this podcast. To Gabrielle Collins,

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:10.400
<v Speaker 1>our supervising producer, engineer J. J. Pauseway and executive producer

0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:15.240
<v Speaker 1>Christopher Hasiotis. I'm your host, the Origin Forager Steven Saderfield,

0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:17.960
<v Speaker 1>and we will be back here next week with more

0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.119
<v Speaker 1>from Whetstone Magazine's Point of Origin podcast