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Speaker 1: Buddy Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually a fan of the band Smashing Pumpkins. People

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Speaker 1: might find that kind of strange. There's something that's surreal

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Speaker 1: about them. It's weird the way their songs were written.

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Speaker 1: And there's one song in particular that I like, and

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Speaker 1: I think that it has a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: a period of time in my life when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid back in junior high school, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the cusp of going into senior high school. And it's

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Speaker 1: a song nineteen seventy nine, and it kind of evokes

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Speaker 1: memories of freedom and you know, not really having a

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Speaker 1: care in the world, being a knucklehead, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And I enjoy that song for some reason. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of put a hook in my brain, and every now

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Speaker 1: and then I'll have to listen to it. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy nine was an interesting period of time. I think

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Speaker 1: in our country we're going through political changes and societal

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Speaker 1: changes and all that, but life carried on, and as

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Speaker 1: always in homicide cases in particular, families are benchmarked by them.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately, the world does not stop with you to mourn.

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Speaker 1: It's only us that are left behind that have that

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Speaker 1: memory of the individual that continued to mourn. But you know,

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Speaker 1: there was a case in nineteen seventy nine that left

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Speaker 1: a family with few answers, and finally they have them.

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Speaker 1: They have these answers because of our friends at authoram Laps.

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Speaker 1: Today on Bodybags, we're going to discuss the case and

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Speaker 1: recent identification of Joseph A. Khaliva. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks. Yeah, memories of nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 2: David.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've been sitting here flashing back the entire time. Yep,

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Speaker 3: big time. That's a big year. And you know, when

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Speaker 3: I look back at the seventies decade, there was so

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Speaker 3: much weirdness crazy that went on. It only makes sense

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Speaker 3: by the into the decade, disco was actually still a thing,

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Speaker 3: you know, because we were just so shocked from the

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Speaker 3: entire decade. But by the end of the decade, by

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Speaker 3: seventy nine, things had really kind of gotten into a

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Speaker 3: different kind of place, you know. And when I saw

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Speaker 3: this story, my first thought was, can you imagine this

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Speaker 3: in your life? Something from nineteen seventy nine. I'm huge

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Speaker 3: and you don't have an answer you don't have an

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Speaker 3: answer for decades, a lifetime. You know, it boggles my mind.

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Speaker 3: Was some human beings go through in this life? How

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Speaker 3: do they get out of bed?

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Speaker 1: You know, not to wax to ethereal here, but you know,

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Speaker 1: you think of of the quote referencing the English. You

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Speaker 1: know them living lives of quiet desperation a lot of

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Speaker 1: us do. You know, you sit back and man, you know,

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Speaker 1: after everything has kind of settled down, and I've seen

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Speaker 1: this with cases that I've worked over the years, you

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Speaker 1: see the crushing agony and that's really the only way

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Speaker 1: to describe it. With families, you see this crushing agony

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Speaker 1: where they look to you investigators that they're like, I

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Speaker 1: want answers and they want something else. They want relief,

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Speaker 1: and there's unfortunately there's not within within the context of

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Speaker 1: what we can do as humans. There's not too much

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Speaker 1: you can do to give somebody relief. It's one of

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Speaker 1: these things that takes time to work through. And it

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Speaker 1: comes all about with this idea of acceptance, I think,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know that there's never a total acceptance.

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Speaker 1: I love the reference of you know, getting and understanding

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Speaker 1: as a family, there always be an empty chair you know,

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Speaker 1: at Thanksgiving and Christmas and all those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: But ye know, you know, can you imagine, you know,

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Speaker 1: with this, with this fellow, he was gone and no

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Speaker 1: one really knew what had become of him. And when

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Speaker 1: you go back to seventy nine and how they the

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Speaker 1: authorities in the Chicago area had a young man that

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Speaker 1: was out riding this horse and came across probably one

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Speaker 1: of the most horrific things that any human being could

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Speaker 1: could visualize. And he was a young man. He was

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Speaker 1: out horseback riding and he caught sight of this, these

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Speaker 1: these burning remains, And I can't even imagine it for

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Speaker 1: a civilian to come across this, because you're you're not

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Speaker 1: expecting that, And I don't know. The story itself, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of tells the tale from there about you know,

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Speaker 1: it starts off with that benchmark of horror, and of

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Speaker 1: course it's all confirmed for the family that later on.

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Speaker 1: And the problem is is that it decades, literally decades

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Speaker 1: to kind of understand the horrific scene that that young

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Speaker 1: man discovered on horseback and what actually happened all those

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Speaker 1: years later.

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Speaker 3: You know, Joe, when you when you talk about going

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Speaker 3: back in time, nineteen seventy nine, and we think about

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Speaker 3: what was going on and how old we were, and

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Speaker 3: I think about the victim. I think about the fell

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Speaker 3: on horseback, you know, and then the police, because even

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Speaker 3: though police are a condition to see many things, finding

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Speaker 3: something like this is not an every day occurrence. I

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Speaker 3: don't know how you can prepare yourself for this. So

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Speaker 3: I think about all of those things coming to a

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Speaker 3: head on this August fifth, nineteen seventy nine. And in

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Speaker 3: my head, you know what, it was, the summer of

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Speaker 3: seventy nine. I wasn't even driving then, and Donna Summer

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Speaker 3: and the Knack, you know, they were the two biggest

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Speaker 3: songs of the summer of seventy nine. And I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: about the guy on horseback. Is he listening, you know,

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Speaker 3: is he listening to the radio and hearing Donna Summer's

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Speaker 3: Bad Girls, you know, to beat beep? And then hey,

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Speaker 3: there's a burning bag. And usually these are in front

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Speaker 3: of my door when somebody knocks late at night, and

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Speaker 3: here we are. And it took from that moment I

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Speaker 3: figured there's kind of a clock running for the victim,

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Speaker 3: the families, everybody involved. The clock starts right now, How

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Speaker 3: do you move on with life without figuring out exactly what, who,

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Speaker 3: and everything about this. Right now, in this moment, it

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Speaker 3: just seems to me like we have this intelligence, we

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Speaker 3: have this science ability that there shouldn't be a mystery

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Speaker 3: that lasts for forty four years, Joe to me, And

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Speaker 3: I know that's really overstating what my thoughts on humanity,

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Speaker 3: I guess, but I just kind of think, well, we

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Speaker 3: put a man on the moon and we can't figure

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Speaker 3: this out forty four years it takes.

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Speaker 2: That's that's bonkers.

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Speaker 1: Yet it is. And you know, for the police department

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Speaker 1: that actually initially worked this case, it was actually out

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Speaker 1: of Barrington Hill outside of Chicago. This is not something

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Speaker 1: that was a common occurrence. It's kind of a back then.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of more of a rural area. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't densely populated. I mean, obviously you've got people that

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Speaker 1: are going on horseback rides and to look over and

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Speaker 1: see what turned out to be a smoldering Torso at

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Speaker 1: that point in time, I can't imagine you know what

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Speaker 1: you think? First off, as I mentioned the civilian that

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Speaker 1: discovered the body, and then the police, when you go

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Speaker 1: out there, you're beginning to think well, who in the

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Speaker 1: world would do anything like this? And you know it

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Speaker 1: kind of it kind of smacks of something particularly back

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Speaker 1: then that you look at the body and you think, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is something that you would only see done or

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Speaker 1: perpetrated at the hands of, say, somebody involved in organized crime.

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Speaker 1: Because there's an attempt here because this body and I'll

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Speaker 1: go ahead and tell you this body was dismembered, and

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Speaker 1: not just slightly dismembered. There were parts that were missing,

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Speaker 1: and that's what kind of is the driver behind all

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Speaker 1: of this. And you've got things that are scattered essentially

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Speaker 1: to the wind, or they're scattered relative to the whims

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Speaker 1: of those that perpetrated the crime. Either way, you have

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Speaker 1: to have a starting point. And I think the biggest

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Speaker 1: question is who would come to this location with these

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Speaker 1: remains and do this to them and leave them behind?

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Speaker 1: And of course the police are asking the same question, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, buddy, homicide cases are difficult

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Speaker 1: enough to work many times, not always, but many times

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Speaker 1: they are very complex. And you add this additional layer

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Speaker 1: of first off, dismemberment because that tells you a lot

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Speaker 1: about the perpetrator, and you add this other element of

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Speaker 1: destruction by fire. It's hard to kind of put everything

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Speaker 1: together and try to deform some kind of story as

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Speaker 1: you move forward. And then we have to keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: and it's really important that we think about nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: It would be several years, several years Dave before Sir

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Speaker 1: Alec Jeffries actually introduced this idea of crime fighting through DNA.

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Speaker 1: We're still, you know, years before that happened. So you know,

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Speaker 1: where did the police go? What do they do? And

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Speaker 1: I think that it's important to understand how all this

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Speaker 1: kind of went down at that point in time.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was wondering in looking at this Joe,

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Speaker 3: a couple of quick questions for you that I think

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Speaker 3: sometimes get overlooked, and that is when referring to a torso,

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Speaker 3: exactly what are we talking about? Because in here it's

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Speaker 3: explained hands, head, arms, you know, parts of this body

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Speaker 3: have been cut off. And I always thought when we

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Speaker 3: talked about the torso, pretty much the body from the

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Speaker 3: waist up minus the arms and head. Yeah, is that

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Speaker 3: the torso or what's the lower torso? I guess is

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Speaker 3: kind of what my point is because upper and lower

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Speaker 3: and I thought it was just this one area.

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Speaker 1: When we think about a torso, where are talking about

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Speaker 1: the core of the body. The torso does not typically

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Speaker 1: include the head and the arms and the legs. And

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Speaker 1: if a body is transsected, when you think about if

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Speaker 1: you in an anatomical environment where you're doing a dissection,

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Speaker 1: you're not thinking about we're not considering this from a

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Speaker 1: criminal standpoint. You know, we're kind of divided into literally

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Speaker 1: transsected across the body. You think about the lower abdomen

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of the demarcation for the lower torso.

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Speaker 1: You think about the pelvis, and then you have you know,

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Speaker 1: you have the upper torso is involved the chest, everything

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Speaker 1: up to the base of the neck. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of how the body is divided up. And you'll hear

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Speaker 1: people in medicine and anatomical sciences when they begin to

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Speaker 1: kind of give you this land and of course these

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Speaker 1: people can go into very detailed descriptions and most of

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Speaker 1: the time it's not something that those of us that

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Speaker 1: don't endwell that world will never have any use for.

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Speaker 1: But it's got a great utility when we begin to

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Speaker 1: think about landmarks, and then you take that and you

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Speaker 1: put it over into the investigation of crimes to what

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Speaker 1: links did the individual go to? And let's face it,

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Speaker 1: this is literally an attempt to destroy any kind of

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Speaker 1: semblance of what's been left behind as far as getting

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Speaker 1: an idea. And I think that that's where the rub

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Speaker 1: comes in in this case.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I had to ask.

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Speaker 3: And for those of you who think that was a

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Speaker 3: really silly question, forgive me. It's just one of those

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Speaker 3: things I've wondered and wanted to ask and it just

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Speaker 3: never came up because I thought, how can there be

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Speaker 3: an upper and lower?

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Speaker 2: Now I understand.

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Speaker 3: So now as we move forward on the day this happened,

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Speaker 3: I found it fast. Boy, if you're a family member,

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Speaker 3: I apologize. I don't want you to think that we're

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Speaker 3: looking at this as some kind of grand mystery that's

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Speaker 3: been solved for our entertainment. It's just we've dealt with

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Speaker 3: it now long enough that it becomes more and different

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Speaker 3: than what a family member is going to go through.

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Speaker 3: How do you survive in life when you have a

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Speaker 3: loved one who has been treated in this manner? So,

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Speaker 3: starting with August fifth, nineteen seventy nine, Barrington Hills, Polief

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Speaker 3: Chief Al should this is what he explained he said,

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Speaker 3: I was cutting my lawn at the time when I

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Speaker 3: got the call. Think about how many times we're doing

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Speaker 3: something innocuous, just matter of fact, going through life, and

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Speaker 3: something happens that changes. It's a marker in our life

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Speaker 3: for the rest of it. There will be the time

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Speaker 3: before the body was found, before the torso was found,

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Speaker 3: and the time after. And that's why he was able

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Speaker 3: to narrow it down. As the police chief. I got

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Speaker 3: a call while I'm mowing the yard and he says this, Joe,

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Speaker 3: it was chaos right after that. Hard to recognize because

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Speaker 3: it was burned. Chief said he can still remember the smell.

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Speaker 3: And the way the chief explained the body parts being

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Speaker 3: found makes it seem as though they were not found

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Speaker 3: together in one place. The upper torsos found, the lower

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Speaker 3: torsos found than the legs. The head and hands were

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Speaker 3: never found. Did you know that they never found the

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Speaker 3: head and hands. The whole area was checked and they

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Speaker 3: never came up with anything. Even now, head and hands

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Speaker 3: not found. That to me is a shocking moment in time.

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Speaker 3: So here we are again, nineteen seventy nine, Joe, the

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Speaker 3: summer of seventy nine, and they couldn't identify there wasn't enough.

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Speaker 3: And I'm wondering what kind of condition, what would it

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Speaker 3: look like the torso of a human being that has

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Speaker 3: been burned, the arms and legs, the head, all those

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Speaker 3: things are They're not there.

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Speaker 2: It's just a torso. That's it, right.

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Speaker 1: And and when you you know, you even even as

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Speaker 1: a result of fire, you can still make out at

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Speaker 1: a scene, once you get past the ghastly nature of

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Speaker 1: seeing a burned human remain, uh, you can actually make

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Speaker 1: out some anatomical landmarks to let you know, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: this is not just and forgive me, this is not

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Speaker 1: just a side of beef that's laying here or some

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Speaker 1: other element from some other animal. This is actually a

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Speaker 1: human torso. And that's one of the things that you

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Speaker 1: would And you have to get past the idea of

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Speaker 1: how how charred it is, because beneath the charring might

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Speaker 1: rest answers, you know, to the bigger questions. First off,

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Speaker 1: what what brought about the death? And secondly who are they?

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Speaker 1: And you have to be very careful with these cases

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Speaker 1: when you're working them, not just at the scene but

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Speaker 1: actually back in the morue.

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Speaker 2: You know, can you even determine if it's human?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you can. And again that goes back to

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Speaker 1: how well you know your anatomy and you know it

258
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Speaker 1: seems over the top, but when you actually open the

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Speaker 1: torso there will be there's a distinct organ arrangement that

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Speaker 1: we have within our bodies, and you can appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, there's anatomical landmarks that you can look for,

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Speaker 1: even the face of a fire scene, where you can

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Speaker 1: come to an acceptable conclusion that this was in fact

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Speaker 1: human and what you're doing with and then the big

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Speaker 1: question is, first off, from an investigative standpoint, you know

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Speaker 1: what happened to this individual to the point where they

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Speaker 1: would be in the state. You look at a body

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Speaker 1: that has had parts removed, that implies that there is

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Speaker 1: a dark action that's going on relative to this individual.

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Speaker 1: There's an attempt to obscure identity here. You know that

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Speaker 1: there's something rather malevolent at work here. And the big

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Speaker 1: thing that's very striking you talked about how they'd never

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Speaker 1: recovered the head in the hands. Well back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy nine, the two primary ways that we would get

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Speaker 1: people identified in the medical legal world, and it still

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Speaker 1: applies today, I think to a bit of a lesser degree.

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Speaker 1: Because of DNA has to do with the teeth, where

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Speaker 1: we would do, you know, an examination of the teeth,

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Speaker 1: and because our teeth are all unique, you know if

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Speaker 1: you have you know, we're we have thirty two teeth

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Speaker 1: in our head, and each tooth is unique in the

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Speaker 1: way it is positioned in the mouth. They can teeth

283
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 1: and be rotated in a certain direction, they can be pitched.

284
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Speaker 1: You can have all types of problems with your teeth

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Speaker 1: relative to say, for instance, cavitated areas have not been treated.

286
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Speaker 1: You can have cavitated areas that have been treated. You've

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Speaker 1: got amalgams that are sitting in as fillings. You can

288
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: have caps, crowns, partial dentures, you can see evidence of

289
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Speaker 1: root canals that should send a chill up every ice

290
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Speaker 1: to bind. But all of those little markers are in

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Speaker 1: fact unique to an individual. And you take that. The

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Speaker 1: reason the head is so important, the teeth particularly is

293
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 1: because when you take that and just mathematically you talk

294
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Speaker 1: about thirty two teeth, if you have anti mortem X

295
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 1: rays that you can compare this too, and do post

296
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Speaker 1: mortem X rays on a head, which we do, and

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Speaker 1: you compare the two dental dental images, you can come

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Speaker 1: up with an I d pretty quickly the physical examination

299
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Speaker 1: that a forensic dentist or forensic idontologist does with the

300
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Speaker 1: with the mouth itself, you can look for all these

301
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Speaker 1: kinds of restorations and believe it or not, Dave. These

302
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: restorations many times are unique to the people that perform them,

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Speaker 1: you know, dependent upon where you received your training, uh,

304
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Speaker 1: what types of materials were used? Uh And dennists can

305
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 1: pick up on that very quickly. So this individual whoever

306
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Speaker 1: did this had an understanding that teeth would would you know,

307
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Speaker 1: kind of uh point in the direction of who this

308
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Speaker 1: person was. And they're behind the eight ball also in

309
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Speaker 1: the sense, and we're talking about the missing head, they

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Speaker 1: didn't even have a skull to be able to go

311
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Speaker 1: back and kind of strip it down and build it

312
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Speaker 1: back out, even with a modeling, which is something that's

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Speaker 1: done to give you an idea of what this person

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Speaker 1: may have looked like. And this is back then you

315
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Speaker 1: didn't have you didn't have that to go and so

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Speaker 1: you're absent and that would give us a visual identification. Right,

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Speaker 1: So we're missing teeth, we're missing that, and of course

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Speaker 1: we get to the hands. You don't have hands, and

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Speaker 1: the reason someone might take the hands off of a

320
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Speaker 1: body obviously is for the purposes of fingerprinting, and so

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Speaker 1: whoever did this had an awareness of what the capabilities

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Speaker 1: were of the authorities at that point in time. We've

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Speaker 1: got to get rid of the head because that can

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Speaker 1: give us a VIS they can give them a visual ID,

325
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Speaker 1: or that can give them a dental ID. And oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, we've got to take the hands because

327
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Speaker 1: if they print this person, they're going to know who

328
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Speaker 1: it is. Maybe they've got a record, or maybe they

329
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: can compare it with an anti mortem print that they

330
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: might lift at the house. That actually has happened where

331
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Speaker 1: if a person didn't have print on record and you

332
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Speaker 1: suspected that it might be one particular you go to

333
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: their home or the suspected person's home, you lift a

334
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 1: latent print, and you compare what you have in a

335
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: more to that which has always been fascinating to me.

336
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: They don't have that DAVE. So you've got a perpetrator

337
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 1: involved in this case that has that level of awareness.

338
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Speaker 1: And I would say in my estimation that as dark

339
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Speaker 1: as this is, it could get a lot darker because

340
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Speaker 1: whoever this perpetrator was is this wasn't their first time. Well,

341
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Speaker 1: we've got a torso dave that has been trends And

342
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: when I say transsected, I want people to think about

343
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: running if you look at it from points on the compass,

344
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: and you're talking about going from east to west or

345
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: west to east across the body. Okay, So if you

346
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: go from the right side of the body to the

347
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: left side and you cut the body in half, that's

348
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: a transaction. Say that it's at the level of the

349
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: of the what they refer to what doctors referred to

350
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: as the umbulkas, which is essentially the belly button. You

351
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: cut across there, that's a transsection. They found everything north

352
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: of that, but later they were actually able to go

353
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Speaker 1: back and find the lower torso with the legs they found.

354
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Speaker 1: In addition to that, they found the arms at some

355
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Speaker 1: point in time, but the arms are absent the hand ends,

356
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: and again that's you're looking at what you're looking at

357
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: with This is a lot of tool marks on these surfaces.

358
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 1: As the body is actually being dismembered. That would give

359
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: you an indication of what kind of instruments that were used.

360
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: But look, if you've got nothing to go on other

361
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: than that, and you don't know what the who this

362
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: person is? You're kind of walking around in the dark man.

363
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 3: And you end up cold. You know, this case, they

364
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 3: worked it hard. I went through all the different files

365
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: we could find and what they did. They being the

366
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 3: investigators at the time, and they were very impacted on

367
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: a personal level with what they found.

368
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:42,479
Speaker 1: Uh.

369
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 3: I'm sure they were disgusted by the total lack of

370
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 3: respect for human humankind.

371
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Speaker 1: That allow this is not like something that happens every

372
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: single day in this in this you know, bedroom community

373
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Speaker 1: to Chicago. You know, you think about Chicago even back then,

374
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: you there's a certain level of violences. So but out here, no, huhuh.

375
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: And that's what kind of got me out of my element.

376
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 3: I go back to the chief talking about when he

377
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: found out I was mowing my guard after the call,

378
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 3: complete chaos, But that chaos settled down when they couldn't

379
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 3: find head, hands and things like that. And eventually, after

380
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 3: they did all the work they could on what was

381
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 3: left to the torso they were left without an identifiable body.

382
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: They did have they knew it was.

383
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: A homicide, and they were able to determine that the

384
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: body was not killed where parts of it were found.

385
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: I don't want to say it is that I don't

386
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 3: know a better way to say it.

387
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: No, you can just say it referred to the remains.

388
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: Ok so that's literally all you have are remains. You

389
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: know that they're human and there's not you know, it

390
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: were not dehumanizing what had occurred. But it's just it's

391
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: the fact that I think that it's very confusing for

392
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: a lot of people. What type of handle do you

393
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: hang on this to try to understand you know, are

394
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: we talking about? And they were initially a single piece

395
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: of what turned out to be human tissue, a large piece,

396
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: you know, the upper torso, and then later you know,

397
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: finding the lower torso with the legs, you know, is

398
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: very important, but I think that just as important again

399
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: going back to this idea that.

400
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: What's missing, right and you know that, you know the

401
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 3: part about this Joe that continues to strike me because

402
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 3: you know, they were able to identify the body, but

403
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 3: it took so long the case went cold. And you

404
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: have to remember it's not just that they found torso,

405
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 3: you know, some because that torso was not identified, there

406
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 3: was a missing person somebody I was looking for this

407
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 3: individual who ended up as what was left of him

408
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 3: Torso and when I looked at how they you know,

409
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: they took the investigation, they ran with it, they worked

410
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 3: it hard, and ended up without being able to identify

411
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 3: the body. But they came tolow, they got a lot

412
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: of information, but still years go by with no answer.

413
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: And during those years there was a family wanting to

414
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 3: know what happened to their loved one that it wasn't again,

415
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: it wasn't just a lump. This was a human being

416
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 3: that had family looking for him. So how did they

417
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: actually end up being able to identify the torso that

418
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: they found forty four years earlier?

419
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: Well, you know this is you know, the when Cook

420
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: County Medical Examiner's Office did their assessment of what they

421
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: could at that particular time. Remember when you're even when

422
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: you're trying to do approximate the stature of an individual,

423
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: if all you're working from is just initially the upper

424
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: torso and then finally, you know, they find the remaining

425
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: lower torso, a stature many times and a stature estimation,

426
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: which is like a real kind of baseline that you're

427
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: working from. If you're trying to get a physical description

428
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: is difficult because you don't have all of the parts

429
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: that should be there, so a height estimation, a weight estimation,

430
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: All of those sorts of things are difficult to assess

431
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: because you're absent all of these other elements, and all

432
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: of that plays into it. At the time, when Cook County,

433
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, did their assessment, they approximated that the individual

434
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: was probably about thirty years of age, may have been

435
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: around five foot eight, so they had some baseline to

436
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: work with. They knew that it wasn't going to be

437
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: an older person. But unless you have something a bit

438
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: more specific, and your hands are really tied in cases

439
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: like this back then you're left with a big, fat

440
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: goose egg. And it just so happens that they had

441
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: retained samples of this individual. They were able to I

442
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: think that finally, you know, the folks with Barrington Hill Police,

443
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: you know, after all these years, they thought, well, let's

444
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: let's just take a gamble here. Let's sat caution to

445
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: the wind. We don't have any answers. This case has

446
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: been on the shelf for all these many years. Let's

447
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: see what we can do with the latest technology. And boy,

448
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: that hit the jackpot. They were able to actually actually

449
00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: submit samples to AUTHORAM down in Texas and last took

450
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: this and boy did they ever run with this thing

451
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: day they developed they conjured this fellow up scientifically from

452
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: these remains that they had from all the way back

453
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:14,959
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine.

454
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: Think about a cold case from nineteen seventy nine, Joe,

455
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: and all these years later technology has been developed to

456
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: be able to identify who this individual is. It boggles

457
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 3: my mind. And the fact they have to crowdfund is

458
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: another show entirely. We'll get into that. So as they're

459
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: breaking it down, Joe, to get to the person.

460
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: How do they do that?

461
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: How do they take the DNA a droplet of blood

462
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: or something, or the inside of a tooth, I mean,

463
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: just something they can pull a DNA strand from and

464
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: come up with a person.

465
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: Doesn't work like that.

466
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. It's very, very, very difficult. And what

467
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: they would be working was here. You know, keep in mind,

468
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: you're going to be absent certain elements most of the time.

469
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: They're going to go into If they have teeth, they

470
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: can certainly uh harvest hopefully some DNA that has some

471
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: level of viability that will lead to success or they

472
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: go into bone and extricate it from there and begin

473
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: to kind of build out the person, if you will.

474
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: And there's a couple of ways that once they begin

475
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: to patch all of this in and begin the sequencing,

476
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: where they can come up with with who they think

477
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: this individual could be or might be from a perspective

478
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: of racial characteristics, any kind of disease profile that the

479
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: DNA might reveal. They can do phenotyping, which is quite

480
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: amazing in and of itself, where you can build build

481
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: out an image of the individual based upon the data

482
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: that's contained within the DNA. But in this particular case, Authram,

483
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: who you know I've made mentioned in a previous episode

484
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: of my visit out there, I was not just impressed

485
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: by the fact that at AUM they have geneticists that

486
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: are on board, genetic scientists that are there that do

487
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: the examination, the DNA examination, but in addition to that,

488
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: they have a whole staff of genealogists. And so once

489
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: they're able to kind of pull that strand or like

490
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: I say, pull the thread, everything else becomes unraveled in

491
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: a good way. It begins to point you in particular directions,

492
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: and it's through the ability that the genealogist has coupled

493
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: with is coupled with the the efforts of the DNA scientist.

494
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: You're going to begin to discover who's in this family tree.

495
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: And once you have that bit of data, you can

496
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: go back and it might be a cousin, you know,

497
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: several times removed, but you've got a place to start.

498
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: And that's how any good investigation works.

499
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 3: And it's funny because the investigation Joe of the police investigation,

500
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 3: after they get the science back, then they're working at

501
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 3: just we're talking dragnet, you know, knocking on doors, checking

502
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: trash and things like that. As you mentioned, it might

503
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: be a cousin. Second, you know, something along there. The

504
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: police were combined with the science is amazing to me.

505
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: And this case really blows my mind when they come

506
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 3: back to the because the police had spent a lot

507
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 3: of time on this, so giving them this one piece

508
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: of tangible Evie events of who we're looking at here,

509
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 3: they were able to just build I mean, they were

510
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: able to build the human being that they found on

511
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 3: August fifth, nineteen seventy nine.

512
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something You know, when you begin to

513
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: think about that and you can have that data, you

514
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: can go back and you can hopefully give the family

515
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: some piece of mind. As I've said, before. There's no

516
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: such thing as closure. I will continue to say that,

517
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: but you can give the family maybe some peace of

518
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: mind relative to this. But also another big piece of this,

519
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: Dave is that once you establish the idea of a subject,

520
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: that gives the police a starting point as well, because

521
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: then you begin to and this is trouble of cold cases,

522
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: you go back and you dig into this individual's life

523
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: and you begin to try to develop who he may

524
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: have been associated with, Who is, as we say down

525
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: here in South who is running buddies, may have been

526
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: anybody that he may have worked with, any peripherals, and

527
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: that might point you to answers as to who may

528
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: have in fact done this. But I have to say,

529
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: after all these years, author them, as a result of

530
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: their efforts, were able to determine that the victim in

531
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: this case was Joseph A. Khaliva. He was twenty seven

532
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: years old at the time of his murder. And finally

533
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: the family has answers. We can only hope that eventually

534
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: they're going to have answers as to who committed this

535
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: horrible crime. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks