Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janna Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, what's up. It's Janna, I've got Easton, I've
Speaker 1: got my manager and best friend Catherine with me on
Speaker 1: today's uh wine Down. I'm so looking forward to today's
Speaker 1: podcast because we're going to talk about grieving, and it's
Speaker 1: one of those things that I have to say I'm
Speaker 1: having a difficult time with um because you know, and
Speaker 1: I know it's not just my situation. I feel like,
Speaker 1: even even when I wasn't going through the divorce, we
Speaker 1: all have good and bad days. And I'm trying to
Speaker 1: give myself grace for the fact that some days are
Speaker 1: harder than others. But it kind of messes me up
Speaker 1: a little bit because just when I think that I'm
Speaker 1: doing good, it's like, oh, okay, wait, no, here's my reality.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just it definitely throws me for a
Speaker 1: loop trying to give myself grace, but all so knowing
Speaker 1: that even people that aren't going through through this have
Speaker 1: bad days. I mean, I still like I struggle with
Speaker 1: depression on some days, even before the divorce, before everything
Speaker 1: else going on, So I think it is normal and
Speaker 1: sometimes it is just by the second and I think
Speaker 1: that's okay, Eastern, you look like you're chomping at the bit.
Speaker 1: What's going on? Jan I just I gotta ask. I
Speaker 1: gotta ask. There's there's a lot of stuff going around
Speaker 1: in the news on the internet. People are talking. I
Speaker 1: gotta find out what is going on with Graham Bun.
Speaker 1: You are just going at me right right? Um? Okay?
Speaker 1: So wow, Eastern just wanting all the all the dirt.
Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those things where I want
Speaker 1: a daily pop. The last few weeks and it was
Speaker 1: an awesome experience. I loved it. It It was so much fun.
Speaker 1: Had a blast hanging out with the posts. But I'll
Speaker 1: never forget when Justin said that I was in an
Speaker 1: entanglement with Grandma, and I was like, in my mind,
Speaker 1: I wish I would because I was thinking, what is
Speaker 1: an entanglement? Like, I was like, I have no idea
Speaker 1: what it is even is, but I was like, yes, okay, sure,
Speaker 1: like we're an entanglement. And then the next day it
Speaker 1: was like Grandma and Jane Kramer in an entanglement and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh. First of all, I don't
Speaker 1: even know what this is. And when I looked it up,
Speaker 1: it kind of sounded a little negative. Um. But also
Speaker 1: I just feel like sometimes I need to take a
Speaker 1: beat before I say something because you know, I would
Speaker 1: have obviously worded it a lot differently. UM. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I regret that a little bit, just because the storm
Speaker 1: of stories that came out really affected me in my anxiety,
Speaker 1: because that's just not where I'm at. Um. And it
Speaker 1: really messed with my Uh, it messed with me, and
Speaker 1: it kind of threw me for a loop. Um. But
Speaker 1: to set their records straight, we are friends. And I
Speaker 1: have known of him for seven years. He was a
Speaker 1: radio country radio DJ and uh and I didn't watch
Speaker 1: his season on The bachelord. I didn't even know he
Speaker 1: was on it until he was the country radio DJ.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I've known of him. I've had
Speaker 1: a few interviews with him back in the day. I
Speaker 1: you know, one when I was pregnant with Jolie. Um.
Speaker 1: But always so sweet, so kind, and when I went
Speaker 1: through the divorce, he had reached out to me and
Speaker 1: just sent me like a very um he's a he's
Speaker 1: a big Christian and he sent me this really nice
Speaker 1: um uh, some passages and messages from the Bible and
Speaker 1: it's just it was just very kind and thoughtful, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, we we became friends and he's been he's
Speaker 1: been a It's so hard because it's like, I know
Speaker 1: that I need time to heal and degree and to
Speaker 1: be alone. It's also one of those things where I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm just like can a girl go on a
Speaker 1: date and have fun too? But he is sweet, but
Speaker 1: right now he knows and I know that I just
Speaker 1: need to be alone. I need to go through what
Speaker 1: I'm going through and I need to do that alone.
Speaker 1: And for me and Catherine as my friend. You see
Speaker 1: the difference this time around, right Oh yeah? I mean,
Speaker 1: and I know you're and and it's and I can
Speaker 1: definitely see a difference in you this time and really
Speaker 1: taking you don't like to be alone. That's the one
Speaker 1: thing that she doesn't. I love to be alone. She
Speaker 1: hates to be alone. But you've started, I'm like, learned
Speaker 1: to love to be alone and you like it now.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy. But that's where I can see you're growing.
Speaker 1: You're taking the time to enjoy. I saw a quote
Speaker 1: the other day I meant to send to you, but
Speaker 1: it basically was about you can't be good in a
Speaker 1: relationship or a marriage if you're not happy with yourself
Speaker 1: and if you're not, if you're not in a good place.
Speaker 1: And I think that you're realizing that and you you are,
Speaker 1: you're working on that, and I think it's great, and
Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that. It's just yeah, I just
Speaker 1: I do have that battle sometimes because I think, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have been in an unhappy I have been unhappy
Speaker 1: for so many years and I've just been fighting it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, don't I deserve to like go out and
Speaker 1: have fun and and be treated nice and kind. And
Speaker 1: you know it's I know that I do deserve that,
Speaker 1: but I need to that's in time, um, because right now,
Speaker 1: I really just need to focus on my kids. I
Speaker 1: need to focus on myself. I need to focus on
Speaker 1: my healing because I still I still miss my ex.
Speaker 1: I still have those days where I miss our family
Speaker 1: and I miss what we had and I wish things
Speaker 1: were different. And that's that's a really hard thing to
Speaker 1: to feel on days when I want to be strong.
Speaker 1: But I think that's also normal to to. You know, obviously,
Speaker 1: I never in a million years wanted this to happen ever,
Speaker 1: or ever, ever, I mean I I yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have wished this on anyone. I wouldn't have wished it
Speaker 1: on our family. And so yeah, I miss I miss
Speaker 1: my family, I miss I miss my ex and but
Speaker 1: I have to think about what do I miss And
Speaker 1: that's kind of where I'm at right now and going
Speaker 1: through that and realizing and finding out like, Okay, what
Speaker 1: is the truth? What is the reality in that situation?
Speaker 1: And you know, yes, we are better off as co parents,
Speaker 1: as hard as it is, but I think that's just
Speaker 1: part of the healing process and until my heart can
Speaker 1: finally be free from from that, and it's probably going
Speaker 1: to take a really long time, and I have to
Speaker 1: allow myself to heal, and I need to heal alone
Speaker 1: because yeah, in the past, I would I would cope
Speaker 1: with other people. I would cope with reaching out to
Speaker 1: other men because that's what would make me feel better.
Speaker 1: But now I just I need to be alone. And
Speaker 1: you know, like Catherine was saying, like it's I do
Speaker 1: love to be alone now and I enjoy it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: but he's a great friend and you know who knows
Speaker 1: down the line when I'm ready. But on a side note,
Speaker 1: can a girl just go out on a few dates
Speaker 1: like come on, um, but no, I'm I'm doing the work.
Speaker 1: And I feel like I almost need almost being my
Speaker 1: therapist on here to back me up because it's a
Speaker 1: because she knows the work that I've been doing. And
Speaker 1: I want to get into that grieving with um, with
Speaker 1: you all because it's important. And again for me, I
Speaker 1: know that as much as I would like to put
Speaker 1: a band aid on things, that's not going to be
Speaker 1: the long fix because I look back in some of
Speaker 1: my journal entries and I'm like, man, like I need
Speaker 1: to break this pattern of what I believe in myself,
Speaker 1: what I believe that I deserve, because I have you know,
Speaker 1: my first relationship was an abusive relationship and like why
Speaker 1: how could I stay in there? Like what was Why
Speaker 1: did I say so little of myself to stay in
Speaker 1: that situation? And and would I have stayed, you know,
Speaker 1: with things that happened early on in my relationship with Mike,
Speaker 1: Like if I loved myself more, maybe I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: in the situation now. And I think having that realization
Speaker 1: that there's so many things that I I wish I
Speaker 1: can go back and do and I can't. And that's
Speaker 1: something that you know, I don't regret the past, but
Speaker 1: now I have the like, the chance and the opportunity
Speaker 1: to create what I deserve, what I want, and I
Speaker 1: had to figure that out. I gotta I gotta break
Speaker 1: these patterns. I gotta break these cycles that that I do.
Speaker 1: And that's again that that means that I need to
Speaker 1: do it alone. And I'm proud of myself for that
Speaker 1: because it's not easy. But I have amazing friends like
Speaker 1: Catherine and um yeah, and it's hard to see comments
Speaker 1: because people are like, oh my god, she's moving on,
Speaker 1: like j Lo and that's like, look, we all cope
Speaker 1: in different ways, but you don't know the behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: And so that's another reason why I'm bringing my therapist
Speaker 1: not to back me the heck up today. Um but yeah,
Speaker 1: I love you guys, I love you Cat, and let's
Speaker 1: get my therapist done. I totally just sprung this on
Speaker 1: my therapist. I just texted her because it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where I'm like, we're talking about this grief
Speaker 1: and like how to handle and how to deal with it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, and also because of everything that just
Speaker 1: kind of came out in the news and stuff, it's
Speaker 1: like I am doing the work. And I almost felt
Speaker 1: like I had to have my therapist to like validate
Speaker 1: that I am doing the work, right, Amy, Okay, absolutely
Speaker 1: lots of times, twice a week, but absolutely every week
Speaker 1: we meet. Yeah, and you've you've been here for almost
Speaker 1: two years doing the work, so you've been committed to
Speaker 1: the work even when there wasn't a crisis. And I
Speaker 1: think it's I'm curious too because when we talk about grieving,
Speaker 1: how like, is it okay to feel in one moment
Speaker 1: that I'm happy. In the next moment I come home
Speaker 1: and I'm just like shattered and destroyed? Is that is
Speaker 1: that normal in the grieving process? And kind of like
Speaker 1: as I feel like I'm on this hamster wheel? Sure, sure, Well,
Speaker 1: you know there's a metaphor that I really love to
Speaker 1: give when I'm talking about grief and when you've been
Speaker 1: through something traumatic, And some people think about the big
Speaker 1: T traumas, right, so maybe a natural disaster, sexual assault, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, gun violence, those are our big teas. Small
Speaker 1: T traumas can be being bullied, made fun of, body shamed,
Speaker 1: but any trauma that negatively impacts your view of yourself
Speaker 1: or your world, So it could be the result is
Speaker 1: something like I'm unworthy because of what's happened to me.
Speaker 1: I'm a lovable it was my fault, I was response able.
Speaker 1: So those are those negative beliefs that begin to to
Speaker 1: seep in when we when we're not doing our work.
Speaker 1: But when you've experienced a trauma, it's though a grief
Speaker 1: enter excuse me, a grief river enters your property, okay,
Speaker 1: and that loss and the sadness that you feel about
Speaker 1: that loss isn't going anywhere. The truth is that that's
Speaker 1: going to be on your property for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. Now, what we're looking for is movement, So
Speaker 1: we want the river to move. Now. Sometimes it's gonna
Speaker 1: move quickly and swiftly, and the sun is shining down
Speaker 1: on it and the water is sparkling, and and that's
Speaker 1: a great day that, as you just described, you feel
Speaker 1: like you're making progress and you have hope for the future.
Speaker 1: Some days though, the water is barely a trickle, and
Speaker 1: it's murky and muddy and heavy and hard and gloomy,
Speaker 1: but it's moving. Now. As a therapist, what we're looking
Speaker 1: for is places where the river gets dammed up and
Speaker 1: those trauma sticks that damn up the river like a
Speaker 1: beaver drip damn are usually the way something ended. So
Speaker 1: it might be the way that someone looked at you
Speaker 1: at the very last conversation. It might be the things
Speaker 1: that you wanted to say and you never got to say,
Speaker 1: or the awful things you did say and that was
Speaker 1: the last conversation you had. So we're looking for those
Speaker 1: things that stopped the river from flowing, because grief should
Speaker 1: be moving, it should be adaptive, and it should change.
Speaker 1: And most people are familiar with the stages of grief
Speaker 1: right so denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, those are not linear.
Speaker 1: We don't get to move through those in order. One
Speaker 1: day you may be an acceptance and the next day
Speaker 1: you may be back in full throttle anger. Um. One
Speaker 1: thing I would mention is that David Kessler, who's a
Speaker 1: world renowned grief expert. I think the world of him
Speaker 1: and his work. He has recently come out with a
Speaker 1: new book called Finding Meaning, and he has essentially formally
Speaker 1: added a sixth stage to grief. And with him he
Speaker 1: lost his son, his adult child, very unexpectedly, and he
Speaker 1: often says it wasn't the grief expert who lost his
Speaker 1: and it was the parent, the dad who lost a son.
Speaker 1: And after that, he worked his way through all these stages.
Speaker 1: He came to acceptance, which means, um, I can accept
Speaker 1: that something has ended and my love goes on. But
Speaker 1: he thought, you know what, this can't be it. This
Speaker 1: cannot be the end of my process. And so he
Speaker 1: discovered that the final stages finding meaning how do we
Speaker 1: make sense of our loss in a way where we
Speaker 1: can help others and carry on a legacy of love
Speaker 1: and goodness and forgiveness. Right, I have a question for you, Amy,
Speaker 1: coming from like the friend perspective of someone that's going
Speaker 1: through it, you know. I mean, I've been here a
Speaker 1: long time with Janna and all of the processes, but
Speaker 1: it's kind of hard because he has friends. We just
Speaker 1: want to be like, like, let's get up, let's go
Speaker 1: have fun, like we want to you know, we want
Speaker 1: to keep her happy. We don't want to see her sad.
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, I've realized kind of in
Speaker 1: this process that we need to be a little bit
Speaker 1: better at letting her grieve and letting her have her moment.
Speaker 1: But you know, so I kind of just wonder what
Speaker 1: is the best way to handle that, like give her
Speaker 1: her time, but then hey, let's let's go, let's get up,
Speaker 1: let's go do things, or just let her have that
Speaker 1: and just let her be or what what is kind
Speaker 1: of your advice there? Well, you've asked a great question
Speaker 1: in general, but you've asked a great question on behalf
Speaker 1: of your friend. So we never want to try to
Speaker 1: talk someone out of their grief. Grief is as unique
Speaker 1: as your fingerprint, So your grief is going to be
Speaker 1: totally different than someone else's, and we need to give
Speaker 1: people permission to be where they are now. We do
Speaker 1: need different types of friends in our grief. We need
Speaker 1: people who can distract us for a while. We need
Speaker 1: someone who we can laugh with, we need someone who
Speaker 1: we can rage with. But it's on us to know
Speaker 1: what our needs are and to communicate those things to
Speaker 1: our friends. That's one of the really hard parts of
Speaker 1: grief is that we end up having to educate the
Speaker 1: people around us about what we need. But we do
Speaker 1: have to do that now. For Janna in particular, I
Speaker 1: would say that she she has the ability to be
Speaker 1: very self aware, And I think you could ask for
Speaker 1: what do you need in the this moment? Do you
Speaker 1: want me to sit on the floor and rip up
Speaker 1: old letters with you. You know, I think about Janna
Speaker 1: the first time you came to session after some things
Speaker 1: had come out. Um, we had a funeral for you
Speaker 1: in session. We both wore black, I had a coffin
Speaker 1: on the coffee table. We wrote a eulogy to the marriage,
Speaker 1: and we held a funeral service and it was it
Speaker 1: was hard and heavy but important. At other times we've
Speaker 1: laughed and um talked about things you're hopeful about and
Speaker 1: looking forward to. But you get to be in charge.
Speaker 1: You get to be the judge of what you need
Speaker 1: in any given moments. So Catherine, I would just say,
Speaker 1: asked Janna what she needs, and she'll probably be able
Speaker 1: to tell you that it's good for her to practice
Speaker 1: using her voice. Yeah, and we we had something it
Speaker 1: was like very soon after everything where it was just
Speaker 1: like I think I I snapped a little bit. I
Speaker 1: was like, I just like, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: even think he snapped. I think I just I've been
Speaker 1: in this situation before and we had had kind of
Speaker 1: not you know, just like she did had kind of
Speaker 1: snapped at me, and so I just kind of withdrew.
Speaker 1: This was years ago, so this time after it happened.
Speaker 1: I had been there a lot, but then I had
Speaker 1: three kids and I was out of town and I
Speaker 1: had sports every night, and so my guilt was you
Speaker 1: have you haven't done anything, but I could feel you
Speaker 1: kind of withdraw a little bit. So I just said, hey,
Speaker 1: like I just need you to know that. Like I
Speaker 1: don't even remember exactly what I said, but it was
Speaker 1: basically like I'm here for you and whatever you need.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that i've been busy, you know, but also
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how to I don't examine
Speaker 1: maneuver it. Yeah, there was definitely that, but also in
Speaker 1: the very beginning because we worked together, you like, I
Speaker 1: was like I'm trying, like I was just like it
Speaker 1: was one of those where that's where I kind of
Speaker 1: I just started crying. I like, this is not easy.
Speaker 1: I know, like and yes, and you're like, I know,
Speaker 1: but like she also has the position where she has
Speaker 1: to talk to me as my manager, you know, So
Speaker 1: it's like that really hard. Like there's a rule there's
Speaker 1: a dual role there, the friendship and manager, and there
Speaker 1: can be a conflict of interest that arises at times
Speaker 1: that you guys will have to sort through. But Catherine,
Speaker 1: I would say your needs matter just as much as
Speaker 1: Janna's needs, and sometimes her grief needs aren't going to
Speaker 1: match up with your capacity or your availability, and it's
Speaker 1: okay for both of you to say, my need is this.
Speaker 1: We aren't in sync right now. You're gonna need to
Speaker 1: reach out to someone else in your support system, and
Speaker 1: it's okay for you to say that. And I believe
Speaker 1: Janna can respect that boundary. Yeah, and I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we did a really good job.
Speaker 1: This is great, I'll see you next week. But I
Speaker 1: think we did a good job of having a group
Speaker 1: of friends that we all acknowledge that, like, hey, like
Speaker 1: I got this going on at home right now, I
Speaker 1: can't be there. Are you good to go check on Janna?
Speaker 1: And that we have this like text message going on
Speaker 1: to make sure that everyone And I think that helped it.
Speaker 1: It took a lot of it off, but yeah, in
Speaker 1: that moment, I think there are times I just have
Speaker 1: to say, you know, manager hat On, like so sorry,
Speaker 1: we gotta do X, Y and Z. But then it's like,
Speaker 1: all right, friend, hat how are you you know? I mean,
Speaker 1: I hear you about that. I think I'm grateful for
Speaker 1: opportunity to talk to one of Janna's friends. I would
Speaker 1: love to talk more, but I think Janna is working
Speaker 1: through knowing that she's okay on her own, and I
Speaker 1: think it's great that you all rallied and that you
Speaker 1: guys were there for her around the clock. I also
Speaker 1: think it's really okay for her to have uncomfortable moments
Speaker 1: where she figures it out by herself, because this process
Speaker 1: of finding herself again is sort of like taking a
Speaker 1: flashlight into a dark library and just beginning to shine
Speaker 1: the light on what might be in there. And there
Speaker 1: will come a moment when Janna flips the switch and
Speaker 1: realizes all the strength and all the determination and clarity
Speaker 1: that she has within her that she can easily defer
Speaker 1: to other people. Um she's looking for someone else to
Speaker 1: to show her away forward or to what is the
Speaker 1: right answer, what is my next right step? And ultimately,
Speaker 1: you know, our process is about you learning to trust
Speaker 1: yourself enough to to believe in you. So in that
Speaker 1: process of you know, because obviously I wanted you know,
Speaker 1: do you think differently in the very beginning of this
Speaker 1: is like, Okay, what I know that I still have
Speaker 1: so much healing and grieving to do. And I know
Speaker 1: there's not a timeline, but when do you It's not
Speaker 1: not like when do you know your heal? But it's like, well,
Speaker 1: we measure progress in millimeters. I mean, what are those
Speaker 1: very small incremental things that you can give yourself success
Speaker 1: and credit for? And and grief is like that, and
Speaker 1: so is recovering from traumatic relationships. And what would you
Speaker 1: say to that? What are a few small things that
Speaker 1: you can give yourself credit for? Since April one? I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm able to laugh and have enjoyed myself. I'm able
Speaker 1: to be alone. I'm able to find moments of happiness.
Speaker 1: I think it's just those moments where I come home
Speaker 1: and go, oh crap, Like I was. I was more
Speaker 1: upset with myself when I came back from Los Angeles
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, I thought I was better.
Speaker 1: I thought like, I didn't think I would have this
Speaker 1: like cauling my eyes out experience again on the couch
Speaker 1: and like so it's like sometimes I feel like that
Speaker 1: makes me be like, oh crap, I'm I'm so far
Speaker 1: away from where I thought I was. That's just that's
Speaker 1: just being realistic and honest with the amount of loss
Speaker 1: and devastation that you faced. I mean, your world was
Speaker 1: turned upside down very quickly. If six to eight weeks
Speaker 1: later you were over it, I'd be very worried about you.
Speaker 1: So I love that you're giving yourself permission to have hard,
Speaker 1: sad days as you should, and you're healing will come
Speaker 1: in direct proximity to you being less engaged with toxic people.
Speaker 1: The less engagement, the further progress you will make. I mean,
Speaker 1: I hear you on that. I like her. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: well she always knows like whenever I'm you know, I
Speaker 1: know you know when I'm in in that web of
Speaker 1: because my my whole body changes, my whole attitude changes,
Speaker 1: my whole Well, I asked you this Monday, I said,
Speaker 1: whose opinions really matter to you? Because you do have
Speaker 1: a lot of people complimenting you and saying nice things
Speaker 1: to you. But I can kind of see this look
Speaker 1: in your eye, like you agree and you're thankful, but
Speaker 1: it's not sinking in. It's not hitting you at your core.
Speaker 1: And so who has the power to say unkind things
Speaker 1: or kind things and for it to really hit you
Speaker 1: in a way where it's believable. Um, So I think
Speaker 1: that's an important question for you to look at and
Speaker 1: and where where do they get that power? How do
Speaker 1: they earn that spot in your life? M You've got
Speaker 1: a lot of people talking at you. You're in a
Speaker 1: privileged position of receiving a lot of advice and insight.
Speaker 1: The real changes are gonna come when you're hearing yourself
Speaker 1: and you trust that voice. Yeah, and see, that's that's
Speaker 1: the place where I want to where I want to
Speaker 1: be and where you know, it's it was hard for
Speaker 1: me with everything that kind of came out with, you know,
Speaker 1: my my dating life and because you know, again I'm
Speaker 1: not in anything committed. I am having fun and I'm
Speaker 1: enjoying myself, but I'm also realizing those moments where I
Speaker 1: need to be alone and I need to have those moments,
Speaker 1: but I don't want that to be because I'm listening
Speaker 1: to people saying, oh, she's moving too fast or oh
Speaker 1: it's like what do I feel? It's like I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like I have to like sit with that and like
Speaker 1: process that. But unfortunately, because I do do this show
Speaker 1: and I am open, you know, it's it's I'm set
Speaker 1: up for people's comments and criticism, and which is the
Speaker 1: point where I'm like, I don't want to do the
Speaker 1: show anymore, like because I don't talk about that. Your
Speaker 1: vulnerability is a gift to the world. You offer something
Speaker 1: remarkable in how transparent you are, but it's only a
Speaker 1: gift when you're managing it. When you allow people to
Speaker 1: back you into a corner and share something before you're
Speaker 1: ready or before you're sure what the implications will be,
Speaker 1: then it's a weapon that's used against you. And so
Speaker 1: you have to slow down enough to know what you're
Speaker 1: sharing and when you're ready to share it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's just so much noise when you're in
Speaker 1: the position that you're in. There's so much noise between
Speaker 1: your friends, between the fans, between everybody, and it's any
Speaker 1: normal person that's going to affect I think you're kind
Speaker 1: of hard on yourself because you want it to affect you.
Speaker 1: But anyone would who's not going to worry about that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's normal. And with like the yeah I
Speaker 1: hear I can definitely hear you on that, and with
Speaker 1: going through the process of you know, divorce and grieving,
Speaker 1: what are some things that people can do to not
Speaker 1: like like I beat myself up over it. I beat
Speaker 1: myself up that I'm that I have those hard days.
Speaker 1: And I know you say you want me to have
Speaker 1: those moments and those feelings. But what are some things
Speaker 1: that I can, you know, either allow myself grace or
Speaker 1: things that I can be like, Okay, I'm gonna now.
Speaker 1: I don't want to stay in it because when I
Speaker 1: stay in it, I think I should feel it. But
Speaker 1: I also don't want to like stay stuck there either. Okay.
Speaker 1: I almost hear two questions there. For one, you need
Speaker 1: to give yourself permission to feel sadness about the end
Speaker 1: of this marriage. Even a fifteen years from now, you
Speaker 1: still have moments where you feel sad that it didn't
Speaker 1: go like you wanted it to or you thought it would.
Speaker 1: That's appropriate. Sadness is an appropriate response for this loss, Jannah.
Speaker 1: And so I think you know what you resist persists.
Speaker 1: So the harder you try not to be sad, um,
Speaker 1: the more that it's gonna stockpile and come outsideways. So
Speaker 1: give yourself a moment to cry and grieve and honor
Speaker 1: what wasn't and what was, and then you'll move forward
Speaker 1: from it. Um. So I think that's really important. I
Speaker 1: actually don't hear you being hard on yourself about having
Speaker 1: hard days or sad moments. I hear you being hard
Speaker 1: on yourself about other things. UM, do you want to
Speaker 1: go there? Do you know? Want to? This is all all?
Speaker 1: You know? What works for you, what's good for you?
Speaker 1: You're hard on yourself about? Uh? You know? Am I
Speaker 1: good enough? Am I worthy? Was this my fault? Will
Speaker 1: anyone ever really love the real need? Those are the
Speaker 1: places where I think you get stuck. It's not about
Speaker 1: having that day. Uh yeah? Do you want to share
Speaker 1: some of those, um negative beliefs that run pretty deep
Speaker 1: for you? I think, I mean, that's that was what
Speaker 1: we I mean, that's I was just in your office
Speaker 1: last week, like destroyed about those feelings, feeling like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was my fault, or if I would have done this,
Speaker 1: this would have been different, or if I would have Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean all I just don't feel or like that
Speaker 1: I was good enough for I wasn't lovable enough for UM?
Speaker 1: And that's um. It just sucks like to feel, you know,
Speaker 1: and we trace that back. It goes way back beyond
Speaker 1: this relationship, doesn't it. It links back to early childhood.
Speaker 1: And that's the value of the m d R and
Speaker 1: brain spotting and some of the work that we're doing.
Speaker 1: And I know you'd love to be three sessions and
Speaker 1: they're good. Um you you had many years of this
Speaker 1: kind of drama though, and so it does take some time.
Speaker 1: H yeah, I mean I hear all that. I think
Speaker 1: it's just I know, how do I say this? Like
Speaker 1: if again, if I put myself into my friends situation,
Speaker 1: if Katherine was feeling this way about her, I would
Speaker 1: be like, what, Like you're incredible, Like it's just it's
Speaker 1: just or is someone listening right now? Like I don't
Speaker 1: want people to feel like they're not worthy, that they're
Speaker 1: not lovable. I'm the first person to be like, you
Speaker 1: are so lovable, you are so you're kind enough and
Speaker 1: you you never deserve this and you are enough. It's like,
Speaker 1: why can't people say that to themselves? M h m hm. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you've just had a lot, a lot of
Speaker 1: life experiences and negative voices that have spoken messages that
Speaker 1: were contrary to that. And they were typically in relationships
Speaker 1: where you were in a vulnerable position. I mean you
Speaker 1: needed that person to love you, protect you, to provide,
Speaker 1: and so you were in a fragile place. And again
Speaker 1: your loyalty, kindness, and forgiveness were used against you, and
Speaker 1: they're that's psychological TERRORISTM. You know, we we call it
Speaker 1: intimate terrorism, but there is recovery. Right. Well, okay, let
Speaker 1: me ask you, how would you define that for you?
Speaker 1: What is it? What's your best hope for healing in
Speaker 1: your life? M? That I one day realized that it
Speaker 1: wasn't my faults, that I am deserving of a great love,
Speaker 1: that I actually believe that, and that I am enough
Speaker 1: no matter whether I'm single, married, alone, like wherever I'm at,
Speaker 1: like that I am enough and I'm I'm I'm worthy.
Speaker 1: It's just like even saying it like I'm like, because
Speaker 1: it's like I'm just not there yet. Yeah, And you
Speaker 1: have to be alone long enough to know it when
Speaker 1: you're alone, right, I mean, So we've talked about the
Speaker 1: fact that it's like we go through life sitting in
Speaker 1: a chair and this chair next to us is empty
Speaker 1: and it's open for the person who we can do
Speaker 1: life and partnership with. But we hate having an empty
Speaker 1: chair next to us. It's embarrassing, it's lonely, and so
Speaker 1: we kind of let whoever walks by just sit in
Speaker 1: the chair to avoid discomfort, it has to sit empty
Speaker 1: for a while. That's called the sacred space. Or we're
Speaker 1: having to, you know, confront our own insecurities. And you
Speaker 1: have you have said, I think publicly and to me
Speaker 1: that you've been amazed at how much your anxiety has
Speaker 1: decreased in the middle of the night. That's a win.
Speaker 1: That's a big win for you to know you don't
Speaker 1: have to have someone in the house with you to
Speaker 1: be okay. So on a scale of one to ten,
Speaker 1: how I know where you were a few days ago,
Speaker 1: How strongly do you feel that you are worthy and
Speaker 1: lovable and deserving? And this isn't all your fault. I
Speaker 1: think the other day I was four. I think I'm
Speaker 1: at like five and a half today. Okay, some progress
Speaker 1: and you get to come back and have it be
Speaker 1: at a three to you know what I mean. It's okay.
Speaker 1: But there is hope, there is yeah, for everyone listening.
Speaker 1: There is hope in knowing and believe and in growth
Speaker 1: and right yeah, yess. I also want you to plug too,
Speaker 1: because the refuge center UM is in in is in Tennessee,
Speaker 1: and can you can you just give a healthy plug
Speaker 1: for for what you do and what the Refuge Center
Speaker 1: can offer to those that um that need this, and
Speaker 1: because I think we all need it. I think we
Speaker 1: all a safe space. And you've given me an incredible
Speaker 1: space space to come on some of my worst days,
Speaker 1: and I'll forever be thankful for you. Well, hey, research
Speaker 1: says that any given moment, we all have about three
Speaker 1: point two blind spots. Those are the things that everybody
Speaker 1: else about us around us knows about us, so we
Speaker 1: don't know about ourselves. So people say, when's a good
Speaker 1: time to go to therapy, Well, pretty much anytime, because
Speaker 1: we all have things we need to work on that
Speaker 1: other people could tell us we need to work on.
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, we should all have our iron
Speaker 1: sharpens iron people around us. And sometimes that's a therapist.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a life coach, a spiritual director, a yoga instructor,
Speaker 1: your acupuncturist. But we need people helping us be better
Speaker 1: and stronger. So the Refuge Center for Counseling, my friend
Speaker 1: Jennifer Gilet and I co founded it back in two
Speaker 1: thousand and five, so this is our sixteenth year of operation.
Speaker 1: We do offer all of our services on a sliding
Speaker 1: scale based on income, so anyone, no matter who you are,
Speaker 1: what you've done, what's been done to you, what you
Speaker 1: can afford. Um. Everyone deserves access to wonderful care. And
Speaker 1: we provide about thirty one thousand counseling sessions a year
Speaker 1: for around four thousand people. And UM, yeah, this place
Speaker 1: uh is you know. Counseling is about removing the burdens,
Speaker 1: barriers and shame stories so that people can live in freedom.
Speaker 1: And we're we're doing that here. Yeah, and if you're
Speaker 1: in the Tennessee area, please please please please go to
Speaker 1: Refuge because it's it's incredible. Um. But hopefully this inspires
Speaker 1: people that are listening right now that we can all
Speaker 1: we can all do some work on ourselves to be
Speaker 1: the best versions um that we can be. You're a
Speaker 1: great example of that, Janna. I hope you'll feel very
Speaker 1: proud of that today. Thanks Amy, I love you so much.
Speaker 1: I see you next week in the office. And thank
Speaker 1: you for like I said that you've been You've saved
Speaker 1: me in many ways, So thank you help you've saved
Speaker 1: you in many ways. Right, Okay, I love, love, love,
Speaker 1: I see you later. She's incredible. I love Amy so much, amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean, as a friend, like, do you know because
Speaker 1: it's like you always wonder like am I going to therapy?
Speaker 1: Like is this therapist good? Because I'll let you because
Speaker 1: you know, we have conversations about what you'll talk about.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I know your therapist like really knows you.
Speaker 1: But like I feel like I really know you. And
Speaker 1: she says all those things, I'm like, she really knows good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know she's incredible. And yeah again, um, you know,
Speaker 1: the Refuge Center is incredible. So if you're in the
Speaker 1: Nashville area, please please please check it out. Um. And
Speaker 1: she also mentioned David Kessler and when she mentioned that, uh,
Speaker 1: the producer has popped on, saying, I think maybe we
Speaker 1: can get him. So let's take a break and let's
Speaker 1: hopefully I think I think he's gonna be coming on.
Speaker 1: So and before we take a break, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about Zuru. So summer just got crazy with color crazy.
Speaker 1: Bunch of Balloons by Zuru are here to help unleash
Speaker 1: summer fun super easy by simply attaching the stem to
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Speaker 1: certified recycled plastic and our friends at zero Toys just
Speaker 1: sent us an amazing surprise unboxing experience to prepare us
Speaker 1: for the ultimate water fight, which me and my kids
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Speaker 1: fast filled water blasters for the little ones. We have
Speaker 1: tons of bubble blowing of fun with glove a bubble.
Speaker 1: So visit zuru dot com you guys to find out
Speaker 1: more about the hottest toys for summer. Because my kids
Speaker 1: are all about the bubble game, you don't know. We're
Speaker 1: all about that high school drama. Girl, drama girl, all
Speaker 1: about them high school queens and forever. We'll take you
Speaker 1: for a ride at our comic girl cheering for the
Speaker 1: right drama queens girl fashion, but you'll tough, girls. You
Speaker 1: could sit with us Girl Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama,
Speaker 1: Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama Queens. Hey, this is
Speaker 1: Bethany joy Lynn and Sophia Bush and Hillary Burton and
Speaker 1: we have a podcast called Drama Queens. I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a walk down memory lane that also might be
Speaker 1: a little bit of a stumble down memory lane. I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll have cocktails sometimes so we might leave stumbling. I'm
Speaker 1: good with that. There are no fans like One Tree
Speaker 1: Hill fans. There is no family like our family. So
Speaker 1: we got together to do a rewatch podcast to relive
Speaker 1: the show as so many of you have so many times,
Speaker 1: because to be honest, we haven't Yeah, we haven't seen
Speaker 1: it since two thousand and two, two thousand three. We
Speaker 1: can't wait to take this trip up down memory lane
Speaker 1: with all of you. What would our characters be doing
Speaker 1: right now? I think Hayley would probably be I mean,
Speaker 1: she's got to be close to an empty uster now
Speaker 1: right like um Jamie's out of the house. She might
Speaker 1: she might be finally ready to live out those wild
Speaker 1: years that you know what I mean. I think it
Speaker 1: might be time. I'm going to say a lot of therapy.
Speaker 1: Peyton Sawyer is in so much therapy right now, well
Speaker 1: not long ago. I found my vote Brooke Davis for
Speaker 1: president pinn I don't know it's Brooke Davis Senator or
Speaker 1: something like that. There's so much cool stuff to imagine
Speaker 1: for them. But before we can go forward, we got
Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning. You nailed it. Make
Speaker 1: sure you all listen to Drama Queens on the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave
Speaker 1: us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Drama Queens O t H or mail us at
Speaker 1: Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you
Speaker 1: next time. We're all about that high school drama. Girl,
Speaker 1: Drama Girl, all about them high school queens and forever.
Speaker 1: We'll take you for a rod at our comic girl
Speaker 1: cheering for the right drama Cueens, go up, girl fashion,
Speaker 1: but you'll tough. Girl. You could sit with us Girl
Speaker 1: Drama Queens, Drama, Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama,
Speaker 1: Queen's David, Hi, Darlin, where are you at. I'm in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, I mean Los Angeles right now. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: excited to be with you. Sorry under these circumstances, but
Speaker 1: still excited. I mean, yes, same. And also, I was
Speaker 1: just talking to my therapist on here and she she
Speaker 1: mentioned you because she's a she's a huge fan, and
Speaker 1: and um, you know the fact that we have you
Speaker 1: on right afterwards is awesome because she was saying that
Speaker 1: in your book you talked about the sixth basically step
Speaker 1: of grieving, right, the sixth stage, right, sixth stage, and
Speaker 1: that is can you talk about that? Because when she
Speaker 1: said that, it like it almost gave me goose bumps.
Speaker 1: So as as you know, I've seen you talk about
Speaker 1: it before. People often talk about the stages of grief.
Speaker 1: There's denial, anger, bargaining all the what ifs and if only, depression,
Speaker 1: which is the sadness, and then acceptance. I think we're
Speaker 1: a generation that doesn't want to stop at acceptance. I
Speaker 1: think we want more, and I think that more is
Speaker 1: finding meaning, that these experiences, these losses, the things we've
Speaker 1: gone through aren't just for the sake of nothing. That
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have to come through things with
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress. We actually can come through them with
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth. And to me, that's sixth stage. The
Speaker 1: stage of meaning is that I guess I'm just and
Speaker 1: I and I absolutely love that. But the meaning, I
Speaker 1: feel like there's I hear them like, yes, there's a
Speaker 1: there's a meaning, and there's a reason. It's almost like
Speaker 1: a reason to me. But is it still okay to
Speaker 1: go on that hamster wheel of all those emotions? Even
Speaker 1: though there is a meaning, absolutely, and you know you
Speaker 1: can't heal what you don't feel, so you have to
Speaker 1: feel all those things. And grief is organic. There's like
Speaker 1: there there's no you know we talked about those stages
Speaker 1: aren't linear. You can one moment be thinking about the meaning,
Speaker 1: the next moment being I can't believe this is happening
Speaker 1: to me, The next moment go back into the what ifs.
Speaker 1: It's very organic and messy, you know. If anything, I'd
Speaker 1: like to tell people the reality is grief as messy.
Speaker 1: If you're trying to meeting it up, you just got
Speaker 1: to know it's messy. But one of the things I
Speaker 1: like to talk about with meaning is people here meaning
Speaker 1: and they'll go, well, there's no meaning in a horrible death,
Speaker 1: or there's no meaning in a divorce, there's no meaning
Speaker 1: in you know, upsetting our children's worlds. And I'll go, no,
Speaker 1: meaning isn't in the divorce or the death or the grief.
Speaker 1: Meaning is in us. It's what we do after. It's
Speaker 1: how we hold this experience. You know, are you going
Speaker 1: to hold it as life is screwed up? Things go wrong?
Speaker 1: There's no point life is horrible and your kids are
Speaker 1: watching that are you going to hold it as you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes life's messy and sometimes things don't work out the
Speaker 1: way we think, and sometimes there's not a fairy tale
Speaker 1: ending and life is still good and life is still
Speaker 1: hopeful and we can still make it work. And yes,
Speaker 1: we're going to be sad, we're going to be depressed.
Speaker 1: It's going to be challenging, but we can get through this.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's great. Why is life so hard some time?
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's just sometimes it's just there's
Speaker 1: there can be so much heaviness and it's just like
Speaker 1: right now, like I'm I think, you know, how can
Speaker 1: someone attract the light when there is that darkness? Well,
Speaker 1: that's that's like been the question I've been asking my
Speaker 1: whole life. And I think it's by naming moments as meaningful.
Speaker 1: You know, in this darkness of losses, of deaths, of divorce,
Speaker 1: of grief, of children and all that, you and I
Speaker 1: are taking a few moments to talk about the light
Speaker 1: and remember the light and to know that the light
Speaker 1: exists even in all of this, and just us bringing
Speaker 1: up the light is us remembering the hope mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And it's these moments to do it. This is a
Speaker 1: meaningful moment to me. Those moments that you have to
Speaker 1: explain the worst kid thing that could happen to your
Speaker 1: kids so far in their life will also be a
Speaker 1: meaningful moment to them that Mommy, in the midst of
Speaker 1: everything cared about their well being and that will be
Speaker 1: meaningful to them because, you know what, we want to
Speaker 1: make sure our kids and all of us avoids life
Speaker 1: losses and tragedies and divorces. But as you said, life
Speaker 1: is hard, and these things happen, and our kids are
Speaker 1: going to go through them, and if we can show
Speaker 1: them it is part of life, and we continue, you know,
Speaker 1: speaking of the kids. And you know, I had to
Speaker 1: comment someone reach out to me that said, you know,
Speaker 1: you should stop talking about and I don't talk about
Speaker 1: my ex, but I talked about my experiences. Um, and
Speaker 1: someone had said, you know, you shouldn't you shouldn't be
Speaker 1: talking about it because your kids are gonna hear this
Speaker 1: one day, And and I really sat with me to
Speaker 1: the point where again I was just like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna, I'm not I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: talk about anything anymore. But then I also realized I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: these are my experiences. I'm not dragging. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: what he did. I'm not you know, but I really
Speaker 1: like I battled with that comment because I was really
Speaker 1: because I still I still feel like I can help people.
Speaker 1: But am I going to hurt? Am I hurting my kids?
Speaker 1: With this being my experience? You asking that question puts
Speaker 1: you in the level of taking your kids into account,
Speaker 1: which just means you're holding in a way where you're
Speaker 1: worried about your kids too, and that's going to safeguard it.
Speaker 1: The thing we often talk about is we don't want
Speaker 1: to make our kids are counselors. You don't want to
Speaker 1: tell them the worst thing about you know, their father,
Speaker 1: and you also get to talk about your truth. And
Speaker 1: if you remind them people do bad things, it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean they don't have good parts of them, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. But you still get
Speaker 1: to be a person and react to the mistakes that
Speaker 1: have hurt you. And I think if you teach the
Speaker 1: kids you know this is hard, but Mommy's got this
Speaker 1: and this is not anything to do with you guys,
Speaker 1: in terms of it being your fault. It affects you.
Speaker 1: But this is something that mommy and daddy are working out.
Speaker 1: We got this. We're both gonna love you through it.
Speaker 1: And you know, kids are going to see a lot
Speaker 1: of things they shouldn't see later in life. You're gonna
Speaker 1: have that issue with your kids even further than your stuff.
Speaker 1: There's there's gonna be works than anything you say. You're
Speaker 1: gonna be worried about them looking at Yeah. True. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if there's if there's a takeaway for anyone listening
Speaker 1: right now that feels like they're stuck, that feels like
Speaker 1: there's no hope, that feels like there's you know that
Speaker 1: they're not going to get out of this pain that
Speaker 1: they're in. What's something that What's a little hope that
Speaker 1: we can that you can give them? Sure? Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: just like you you know, we started with this idea
Speaker 1: that there is no night that went on forever. You know,
Speaker 1: there is a light, there is hope, there is love.
Speaker 1: I mean, I always want people to know, no matter
Speaker 1: what you've been through, there is love after loss. There
Speaker 1: is life after loss, and that exists for you. And
Speaker 1: partly you've got to believe in that. And I've already
Speaker 1: heard from things you say you know that you believe
Speaker 1: love will continue through this. I hope so I don't.
Speaker 1: Then I'm just gonna be miserable. Like I fear it
Speaker 1: and I'm terrified of it, and I'm scared to be
Speaker 1: in the next thing. But I also know that I
Speaker 1: do believe and I'll always believe in love because it
Speaker 1: not then what is there to believe in? Like? I
Speaker 1: love love, you know, it's it's our why, it's our
Speaker 1: reason to be, It's everything we do. And love exists
Speaker 1: in all of it. It exists in the lasses, that
Speaker 1: exists in the tragedy, it exists in your hope, and
Speaker 1: it exists in your future. And that's what we have
Speaker 1: to remember. The other thing I would tell people is
Speaker 1: this situation you're in is not you. It's what you're
Speaker 1: going through. You don't have, you know, a broken head,
Speaker 1: you have a broken heart. It's supposed to be tough,
Speaker 1: and you were okay before this relationship, and you will
Speaker 1: be okay after this relationship. You're going to have lots
Speaker 1: of moments You're going to forget that every one of
Speaker 1: us us and I think it's to also know, you know,
Speaker 1: my specialty is grief and loss. Like the most horrible
Speaker 1: tragedies in life. But I also want people to know
Speaker 1: it's not just about death. When you're going through divorce,
Speaker 1: when you're going through breakups and betrayal, those are some
Speaker 1: of the hardest moments and all grief counts. You know,
Speaker 1: when people ask me which is the worst loss, I
Speaker 1: always say yours. Yours is the worst loss. There's always
Speaker 1: going to be something in the world worse than you
Speaker 1: and what you're going through, But it doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: don't attend to your own pain, and that's what we
Speaker 1: have to do and to find ourselves again after loss.
Speaker 1: I love that. David. Thank you for coming on and
Speaker 1: just sharing your words and um and your life. So
Speaker 1: we have so appreciate you and hopefully we can continue
Speaker 1: this conversation. Another epis said, thank you, and I'm telling
Speaker 1: you you talking about it not only helps you but
Speaker 1: helps others because we can feel pretty alone in our grief.
Speaker 1: So thank you for talking about it. Thank you, David.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Have a great day. Thank you too.
Speaker 1: So that was awesome. I feel like hopefully that gives everybody,
Speaker 1: I mean even Catherine, you know, when I know you're
Speaker 1: not going through like a loss per se. But if
Speaker 1: you're having a bad day, to note there's always the
Speaker 1: night doesn't last forever, which I'd love that. David said
Speaker 1: that too, where it's there's always going to be light
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. Yeah, I think that's great,
Speaker 1: and I think it's all of this has been really
Speaker 1: good for me in the sense that, like I think
Speaker 1: people forget you don't just grieve when you lose something
Speaker 1: like a death, you know, And it's like, I think
Speaker 1: you only think of grieving when you have a death.
Speaker 1: And I think it's like, you know, reminding everyone that
Speaker 1: people need time to grieve the marriage or whatever happened,
Speaker 1: I mean, whatever, that loss of a job, anything that
Speaker 1: that you lost, Like, people need to grieve. So so
Speaker 1: if you gotta cry right now, cry it out, it's okay.
Speaker 1: But no, there will be light at the end of
Speaker 1: the tunnel. And I'm in the tunnel, but I would
Speaker 1: like to hold hands and let's all let's all go
Speaker 1: out and see the light. Just might take a minute,
Speaker 1: it might be a long tunnel. We'll see when I
Speaker 1: see a little I see a little light at the end.
Speaker 1: Love you guys, See you next week.