WEBVTT - Good Grief 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:05.359 Wind Down with Janna Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.039 Hey guys, what's up. It's Janna, I've got Easton, I've 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.160 got my manager and best friend Catherine with me on 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.720 today's uh wine Down. I'm so looking forward to today's 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:24.720 podcast because we're going to talk about grieving, and it's 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:26.360 one of those things that I have to say I'm 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:31.319 having a difficult time with um because you know, and 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.800 I know it's not just my situation. I feel like, 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.440 even even when I wasn't going through the divorce, we 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.559 all have good and bad days. And I'm trying to 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.199 give myself grace for the fact that some days are 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.320 harder than others. But it kind of messes me up 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:49.959 a little bit because just when I think that I'm 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.760 doing good, it's like, oh, okay, wait, no, here's my reality. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.840 And yeah, it's just it definitely throws me for a 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.520 loop trying to give myself grace, but all so knowing 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.360 that even people that aren't going through through this have 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:06.600 bad days. I mean, I still like I struggle with 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.360 depression on some days, even before the divorce, before everything 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.680 else going on, So I think it is normal and 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.640 sometimes it is just by the second and I think 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.160 that's okay, Eastern, you look like you're chomping at the bit. 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.360 What's going on? Jan I just I gotta ask. I 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.000 gotta ask. There's there's a lot of stuff going around 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.760 in the news on the internet. People are talking. I 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:35.440 gotta find out what is going on with Graham Bun. 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:42.560 You are just going at me right right? Um? Okay? 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:47.319 So wow, Eastern just wanting all the all the dirt. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:53.320 You know. It's one of those things where I want 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.360 a daily pop. The last few weeks and it was 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.760 an awesome experience. I loved it. It It was so much fun. 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.040 Had a blast hanging out with the posts. But I'll 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.320 never forget when Justin said that I was in an 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.840 entanglement with Grandma, and I was like, in my mind, 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.400 I wish I would because I was thinking, what is 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.720 an entanglement? Like, I was like, I have no idea 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.480 what it is even is, but I was like, yes, okay, sure, 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.480 like we're an entanglement. And then the next day it 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.239 was like Grandma and Jane Kramer in an entanglement and 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.000 I'm like, oh my gosh. First of all, I don't 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:23.480 even know what this is. And when I looked it up, 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:28.240 it kind of sounded a little negative. Um. But also 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.920 I just feel like sometimes I need to take a 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.519 beat before I say something because you know, I would 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.239 have obviously worded it a lot differently. UM. So yeah, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:45.240 I regret that a little bit, just because the storm 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.359 of stories that came out really affected me in my anxiety, 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.440 because that's just not where I'm at. Um. And it 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.160 really messed with my Uh, it messed with me, and 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:01.720 it kind of threw me for a loop. Um. But 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.160 to set their records straight, we are friends. And I 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.720 have known of him for seven years. He was a 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.720 radio country radio DJ and uh and I didn't watch 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:13.400 his season on The bachelord. I didn't even know he 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:18.600 was on it until he was the country radio DJ. 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.920 But yeah, I mean I've known of him. I've had 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:23.960 a few interviews with him back in the day. I 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.359 you know, one when I was pregnant with Jolie. Um. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.480 But always so sweet, so kind, and when I went 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.600 through the divorce, he had reached out to me and 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:35.680 just sent me like a very um he's a he's 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.240 a big Christian and he sent me this really nice 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.000 um uh, some passages and messages from the Bible and 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.280 it's just it was just very kind and thoughtful, and 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.160 so yeah, we we became friends and he's been he's 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:55.120 been a It's so hard because it's like, I know 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.640 that I need time to heal and degree and to 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.960 be alone. It's also one of those things where I'm like, man, 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.800 sometimes I'm just like can a girl go on a 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.080 date and have fun too? But he is sweet, but 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.040 right now he knows and I know that I just 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.960 need to be alone. I need to go through what 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:14.960 I'm going through and I need to do that alone. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.839 And for me and Catherine as my friend. You see 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.560 the difference this time around, right Oh yeah? I mean, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.279 and I know you're and and it's and I can 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.919 definitely see a difference in you this time and really 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.039 taking you don't like to be alone. That's the one 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:31.719 thing that she doesn't. I love to be alone. She 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.359 hates to be alone. But you've started, I'm like, learned 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.040 to love to be alone and you like it now. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.880 I'm so happy. But that's where I can see you're growing. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.640 You're taking the time to enjoy. I saw a quote 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.040 the other day I meant to send to you, but 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.400 it basically was about you can't be good in a 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.839 relationship or a marriage if you're not happy with yourself 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.200 and if you're not, if you're not in a good place. 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.000 And I think that you're realizing that and you you are, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.120 you're working on that, and I think it's great, and 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.680 I appreciate you saying that. It's just yeah, I just 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.760 I do have that battle sometimes because I think, well, yeah, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.080 I have been in an unhappy I have been unhappy 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:11.719 for so many years and I've just been fighting it. 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:13.840 So yeah, don't I deserve to like go out and 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:18.080 have fun and and be treated nice and kind. And 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:24.080 you know it's I know that I do deserve that, 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:28.520 but I need to that's in time, um, because right now, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.440 I really just need to focus on my kids. I 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.479 need to focus on myself. I need to focus on 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.040 my healing because I still I still miss my ex. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.200 I still have those days where I miss our family 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.039 and I miss what we had and I wish things 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.400 were different. And that's that's a really hard thing to 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.160 to feel on days when I want to be strong. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.640 But I think that's also normal to to. You know, obviously, 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.920 I never in a million years wanted this to happen ever, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.840 or ever, ever, I mean I I yeah, I wouldn't 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:06.800 have wished this on anyone. I wouldn't have wished it 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.680 on our family. And so yeah, I miss I miss 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.440 my family, I miss I miss my ex and but 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.600 I have to think about what do I miss And 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.080 that's kind of where I'm at right now and going 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.320 through that and realizing and finding out like, Okay, what 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.600 is the truth? What is the reality in that situation? 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.359 And you know, yes, we are better off as co parents, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.560 as hard as it is, but I think that's just 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.120 part of the healing process and until my heart can 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.839 finally be free from from that, and it's probably going 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.520 to take a really long time, and I have to 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.760 allow myself to heal, and I need to heal alone 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.719 because yeah, in the past, I would I would cope 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.120 with other people. I would cope with reaching out to 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.839 other men because that's what would make me feel better. 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.599 But now I just I need to be alone. And 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.760 you know, like Catherine was saying, like it's I do 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.799 love to be alone now and I enjoy it. And yeah, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:08.599 but he's a great friend and you know who knows 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.000 down the line when I'm ready. But on a side note, 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.040 can a girl just go out on a few dates 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:20.160 like come on, um, but no, I'm I'm doing the work. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.440 And I feel like I almost need almost being my 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.000 therapist on here to back me up because it's a 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.120 because she knows the work that I've been doing. And 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.960 I want to get into that grieving with um, with 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:36.320 you all because it's important. And again for me, I 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.000 know that as much as I would like to put 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:40.520 a band aid on things, that's not going to be 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.680 the long fix because I look back in some of 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:47.600 my journal entries and I'm like, man, like I need 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.120 to break this pattern of what I believe in myself, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.680 what I believe that I deserve, because I have you know, 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.080 my first relationship was an abusive relationship and like why 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.480 how could I stay in there? Like what was Why 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.680 did I say so little of myself to stay in 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.400 that situation? And and would I have stayed, you know, 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.880 with things that happened early on in my relationship with Mike, 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.440 Like if I loved myself more, maybe I wouldn't be 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.160 in the situation now. And I think having that realization 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.320 that there's so many things that I I wish I 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.360 can go back and do and I can't. And that's 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.440 something that you know, I don't regret the past, but 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.240 now I have the like, the chance and the opportunity 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.520 to create what I deserve, what I want, and I 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.720 had to figure that out. I gotta I gotta break 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.400 these patterns. I gotta break these cycles that that I do. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.960 And that's again that that means that I need to 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.559 do it alone. And I'm proud of myself for that 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:50.520 because it's not easy. But I have amazing friends like 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:56.240 Catherine and um yeah, and it's hard to see comments 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.320 because people are like, oh my god, she's moving on, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.880 like j Lo and that's like, look, we all cope 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.400 in different ways, but you don't know the behind the scenes. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.400 And so that's another reason why I'm bringing my therapist 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:10.200 not to back me the heck up today. Um but yeah, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.600 I love you guys, I love you Cat, and let's 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:27.960 get my therapist done. I totally just sprung this on 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.800 my therapist. I just texted her because it's one of 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:35.400 those things where I'm like, we're talking about this grief 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:36.960 and like how to handle and how to deal with it, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.640 and I'm like, and also because of everything that just 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.319 kind of came out in the news and stuff, it's 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.360 like I am doing the work. And I almost felt 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.600 like I had to have my therapist to like validate 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.079 that I am doing the work, right, Amy, Okay, absolutely 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.120 lots of times, twice a week, but absolutely every week 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.760 we meet. Yeah, and you've you've been here for almost 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.160 two years doing the work, so you've been committed to 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.600 the work even when there wasn't a crisis. And I 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:09.360 think it's I'm curious too because when we talk about grieving, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.240 how like, is it okay to feel in one moment 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.560 that I'm happy. In the next moment I come home 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:18.760 and I'm just like shattered and destroyed? Is that is 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.160 that normal in the grieving process? And kind of like 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.600 as I feel like I'm on this hamster wheel? Sure, sure, Well, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.160 you know there's a metaphor that I really love to 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.880 give when I'm talking about grief and when you've been 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.040 through something traumatic, And some people think about the big 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:39.400 T traumas, right, so maybe a natural disaster, sexual assault, uh, 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.520 you know, gun violence, those are our big teas. Small 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.200 T traumas can be being bullied, made fun of, body shamed, 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.680 but any trauma that negatively impacts your view of yourself 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.120 or your world, So it could be the result is 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.600 something like I'm unworthy because of what's happened to me. 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.240 I'm a lovable it was my fault, I was response able. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.080 So those are those negative beliefs that begin to to 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.760 seep in when we when we're not doing our work. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.880 But when you've experienced a trauma, it's though a grief 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:13.600 enter excuse me, a grief river enters your property, okay, 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.680 and that loss and the sadness that you feel about 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.560 that loss isn't going anywhere. The truth is that that's 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.680 going to be on your property for the rest of 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.199 your life. Now, what we're looking for is movement, So 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.280 we want the river to move. Now. Sometimes it's gonna 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.800 move quickly and swiftly, and the sun is shining down 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.200 on it and the water is sparkling, and and that's 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.480 a great day that, as you just described, you feel 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.079 like you're making progress and you have hope for the future. 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.720 Some days though, the water is barely a trickle, and 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:48.640 it's murky and muddy and heavy and hard and gloomy, 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.640 but it's moving. Now. As a therapist, what we're looking 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.840 for is places where the river gets dammed up and 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.880 those trauma sticks that damn up the river like a 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.480 beaver drip damn are usually the way something ended. So 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.280 it might be the way that someone looked at you 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.200 at the very last conversation. It might be the things 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.599 that you wanted to say and you never got to say, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.920 or the awful things you did say and that was 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.320 the last conversation you had. So we're looking for those 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.400 things that stopped the river from flowing, because grief should 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.680 be moving, it should be adaptive, and it should change. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.120 And most people are familiar with the stages of grief 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:29.880 right so denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, those are not linear. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.160 We don't get to move through those in order. One 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.120 day you may be an acceptance and the next day 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.600 you may be back in full throttle anger. Um. One 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.240 thing I would mention is that David Kessler, who's a 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.000 world renowned grief expert. I think the world of him 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.920 and his work. He has recently come out with a 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.520 new book called Finding Meaning, and he has essentially formally 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.640 added a sixth stage to grief. And with him he 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.920 lost his son, his adult child, very unexpectedly, and he 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.760 often says it wasn't the grief expert who lost his 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.360 and it was the parent, the dad who lost a son. 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.760 And after that, he worked his way through all these stages. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.440 He came to acceptance, which means, um, I can accept 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.679 that something has ended and my love goes on. But 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:15.600 he thought, you know what, this can't be it. This 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.560 cannot be the end of my process. And so he 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.280 discovered that the final stages finding meaning how do we 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.080 make sense of our loss in a way where we 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.360 can help others and carry on a legacy of love 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.679 and goodness and forgiveness. Right, I have a question for you, Amy, 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:35.880 coming from like the friend perspective of someone that's going 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:37.440 through it, you know. I mean, I've been here a 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.760 long time with Janna and all of the processes, but 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.080 it's kind of hard because he has friends. We just 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.040 want to be like, like, let's get up, let's go 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:46.760 have fun, like we want to you know, we want 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:48.960 to keep her happy. We don't want to see her sad. 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.920 But I think, you know, I've realized kind of in 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.360 this process that we need to be a little bit 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.440 better at letting her grieve and letting her have her moment. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.760 But you know, so I kind of just wonder what 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.640 is the best way to handle that, like give her 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.720 her time, but then hey, let's let's go, let's get up, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.760 let's go do things, or just let her have that 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.079 and just let her be or what what is kind 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.720 of your advice there? Well, you've asked a great question 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.600 in general, but you've asked a great question on behalf 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.960 of your friend. So we never want to try to 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.320 talk someone out of their grief. Grief is as unique 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.200 as your fingerprint, So your grief is going to be 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.600 totally different than someone else's, and we need to give 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.120 people permission to be where they are now. We do 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.840 need different types of friends in our grief. We need 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.320 people who can distract us for a while. We need 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.360 someone who we can laugh with, we need someone who 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.080 we can rage with. But it's on us to know 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.440 what our needs are and to communicate those things to 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.320 our friends. That's one of the really hard parts of 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.680 grief is that we end up having to educate the 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.800 people around us about what we need. But we do 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.400 have to do that now. For Janna in particular, I 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.800 would say that she she has the ability to be 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.000 very self aware, And I think you could ask for 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:00.880 what do you need in the this moment? Do you 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.200 want me to sit on the floor and rip up 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.760 old letters with you. You know, I think about Janna 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.120 the first time you came to session after some things 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.760 had come out. Um, we had a funeral for you 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.400 in session. We both wore black, I had a coffin 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.960 on the coffee table. We wrote a eulogy to the marriage, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.120 and we held a funeral service and it was it 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.400 was hard and heavy but important. At other times we've 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.440 laughed and um talked about things you're hopeful about and 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.080 looking forward to. But you get to be in charge. 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:31.720 You get to be the judge of what you need 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:33.960 in any given moments. So Catherine, I would just say, 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.000 asked Janna what she needs, and she'll probably be able 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.040 to tell you that it's good for her to practice 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.200 using her voice. Yeah, and we we had something it 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.160 was like very soon after everything where it was just 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.720 like I think I I snapped a little bit. I 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.280 was like, I just like, I don't know, I don't 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.320 even think he snapped. I think I just I've been 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.080 in this situation before and we had had kind of 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.520 not you know, just like she did had kind of 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.480 snapped at me, and so I just kind of withdrew. 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.320 This was years ago, so this time after it happened. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:06.880 I had been there a lot, but then I had 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:08.600 three kids and I was out of town and I 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.720 had sports every night, and so my guilt was you 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:14.760 have you haven't done anything, but I could feel you 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.120 kind of withdraw a little bit. So I just said, hey, 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.560 like I just need you to know that. Like I 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.680 don't even remember exactly what I said, but it was 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.640 basically like I'm here for you and whatever you need. 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.800 I'm sorry that i've been busy, you know, but also 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.200 I'm trying to figure out how to I don't examine 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.680 maneuver it. Yeah, there was definitely that, but also in 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.080 the very beginning because we worked together, you like, I 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.000 was like I'm trying, like I was just like it 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:39.480 was one of those where that's where I kind of 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.240 I just started crying. I like, this is not easy. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.520 I know, like and yes, and you're like, I know, 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:45.720 but like she also has the position where she has 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.360 to talk to me as my manager, you know, So 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.560 it's like that really hard. Like there's a rule there's 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.280 a dual role there, the friendship and manager, and there 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.840 can be a conflict of interest that arises at times 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.200 that you guys will have to sort through. But Catherine, 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.640 I would say your needs matter just as much as 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.320 Janna's needs, and sometimes her grief needs aren't going to 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.960 match up with your capacity or your availability, and it's 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.760 okay for both of you to say, my need is this. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.399 We aren't in sync right now. You're gonna need to 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.199 reach out to someone else in your support system, and 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.280 it's okay for you to say that. And I believe 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.400 Janna can respect that boundary. Yeah, and I think that, 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:24.879 you know, I think we did a really good job. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.800 This is great, I'll see you next week. But I 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.400 think we did a good job of having a group 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.919 of friends that we all acknowledge that, like, hey, like 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:36.800 I got this going on at home right now, I 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:38.879 can't be there. Are you good to go check on Janna? 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.160 And that we have this like text message going on 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.679 to make sure that everyone And I think that helped it. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.199 It took a lot of it off, but yeah, in 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.919 that moment, I think there are times I just have 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.639 to say, you know, manager hat On, like so sorry, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.440 we gotta do X, Y and Z. But then it's like, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.280 all right, friend, hat how are you you know? I mean, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.879 I hear you about that. I think I'm grateful for 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.000 opportunity to talk to one of Janna's friends. I would 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.240 love to talk more, but I think Janna is working 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.119 through knowing that she's okay on her own, and I 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.960 think it's great that you all rallied and that you 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.280 guys were there for her around the clock. I also 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.480 think it's really okay for her to have uncomfortable moments 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.960 where she figures it out by herself, because this process 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.639 of finding herself again is sort of like taking a 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.000 flashlight into a dark library and just beginning to shine 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.000 the light on what might be in there. And there 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.840 will come a moment when Janna flips the switch and 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.800 realizes all the strength and all the determination and clarity 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.040 that she has within her that she can easily defer 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.680 to other people. Um she's looking for someone else to 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.720 to show her away forward or to what is the 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.000 right answer, what is my next right step? And ultimately, 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.840 you know, our process is about you learning to trust 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.560 yourself enough to to believe in you. So in that 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.760 process of you know, because obviously I wanted you know, 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.480 do you think differently in the very beginning of this 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:06.119 is like, Okay, what I know that I still have 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.280 so much healing and grieving to do. And I know 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.240 there's not a timeline, but when do you It's not 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.080 not like when do you know your heal? But it's like, well, 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:19.560 we measure progress in millimeters. I mean, what are those 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.840 very small incremental things that you can give yourself success 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.119 and credit for? And and grief is like that, and 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.480 so is recovering from traumatic relationships. And what would you 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.840 say to that? What are a few small things that 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.760 you can give yourself credit for? Since April one? I mean, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.000 I'm able to laugh and have enjoyed myself. I'm able 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.960 to be alone. I'm able to find moments of happiness. 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.480 I think it's just those moments where I come home 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:49.200 and go, oh crap, Like I was. I was more 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:51.480 upset with myself when I came back from Los Angeles 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.200 because I was like, oh, I thought I was better. 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:55.840 I thought like, I didn't think I would have this 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.280 like cauling my eyes out experience again on the couch 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.600 and like so it's like sometimes I feel like that 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.080 makes me be like, oh crap, I'm I'm so far 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.120 away from where I thought I was. That's just that's 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.840 just being realistic and honest with the amount of loss 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.520 and devastation that you faced. I mean, your world was 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.760 turned upside down very quickly. If six to eight weeks 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.520 later you were over it, I'd be very worried about you. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.399 So I love that you're giving yourself permission to have hard, 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:27.040 sad days as you should, and you're healing will come 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:32.439 in direct proximity to you being less engaged with toxic people. 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.240 The less engagement, the further progress you will make. I mean, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.719 I hear you on that. I like her. Yeah, I know, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.199 well she always knows like whenever I'm you know, I 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.359 know you know when I'm in in that web of 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.280 because my my whole body changes, my whole attitude changes, 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.680 my whole Well, I asked you this Monday, I said, 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.720 whose opinions really matter to you? Because you do have 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.480 a lot of people complimenting you and saying nice things 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.240 to you. But I can kind of see this look 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.159