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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janna Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, what's up. It's Janna, I've got Easton, I've

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Speaker 1: got my manager and best friend Catherine with me on

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Speaker 1: today's uh wine Down. I'm so looking forward to today's

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Speaker 1: podcast because we're going to talk about grieving, and it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things that I have to say I'm

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Speaker 1: having a difficult time with um because you know, and

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Speaker 1: I know it's not just my situation. I feel like,

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Speaker 1: even even when I wasn't going through the divorce, we

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Speaker 1: all have good and bad days. And I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: give myself grace for the fact that some days are

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Speaker 1: harder than others. But it kind of messes me up

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Speaker 1: a little bit because just when I think that I'm

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Speaker 1: doing good, it's like, oh, okay, wait, no, here's my reality.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just it definitely throws me for a

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Speaker 1: loop trying to give myself grace, but all so knowing

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Speaker 1: that even people that aren't going through through this have

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Speaker 1: bad days. I mean, I still like I struggle with

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Speaker 1: depression on some days, even before the divorce, before everything

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Speaker 1: else going on, So I think it is normal and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it is just by the second and I think

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Speaker 1: that's okay, Eastern, you look like you're chomping at the bit.

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Speaker 1: What's going on? Jan I just I gotta ask. I

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Speaker 1: gotta ask. There's there's a lot of stuff going around

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Speaker 1: in the news on the internet. People are talking. I

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Speaker 1: gotta find out what is going on with Graham Bun.

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Speaker 1: You are just going at me right right? Um? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So wow, Eastern just wanting all the all the dirt.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those things where I want

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Speaker 1: a daily pop. The last few weeks and it was

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Speaker 1: an awesome experience. I loved it. It It was so much fun.

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Speaker 1: Had a blast hanging out with the posts. But I'll

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Speaker 1: never forget when Justin said that I was in an

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Speaker 1: entanglement with Grandma, and I was like, in my mind,

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Speaker 1: I wish I would because I was thinking, what is

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Speaker 1: an entanglement? Like, I was like, I have no idea

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Speaker 1: what it is even is, but I was like, yes, okay, sure,

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Speaker 1: like we're an entanglement. And then the next day it

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Speaker 1: was like Grandma and Jane Kramer in an entanglement and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh. First of all, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what this is. And when I looked it up,

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Speaker 1: it kind of sounded a little negative. Um. But also

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Speaker 1: I just feel like sometimes I need to take a

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Speaker 1: beat before I say something because you know, I would

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Speaker 1: have obviously worded it a lot differently. UM. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I regret that a little bit, just because the storm

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Speaker 1: of stories that came out really affected me in my anxiety,

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Speaker 1: because that's just not where I'm at. Um. And it

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Speaker 1: really messed with my Uh, it messed with me, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of threw me for a loop. Um. But

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Speaker 1: to set their records straight, we are friends. And I

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Speaker 1: have known of him for seven years. He was a

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Speaker 1: radio country radio DJ and uh and I didn't watch

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Speaker 1: his season on The bachelord. I didn't even know he

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Speaker 1: was on it until he was the country radio DJ.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I've known of him. I've had

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Speaker 1: a few interviews with him back in the day. I

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Speaker 1: you know, one when I was pregnant with Jolie. Um.

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Speaker 1: But always so sweet, so kind, and when I went

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Speaker 1: through the divorce, he had reached out to me and

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Speaker 1: just sent me like a very um he's a he's

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Speaker 1: a big Christian and he sent me this really nice

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Speaker 1: um uh, some passages and messages from the Bible and

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Speaker 1: it's just it was just very kind and thoughtful, and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, we we became friends and he's been he's

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Speaker 1: been a It's so hard because it's like, I know

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Speaker 1: that I need time to heal and degree and to

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Speaker 1: be alone. It's also one of those things where I'm like, man,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I'm just like can a girl go on a

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Speaker 1: date and have fun too? But he is sweet, but

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Speaker 1: right now he knows and I know that I just

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Speaker 1: need to be alone. I need to go through what

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Speaker 1: I'm going through and I need to do that alone.

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Speaker 1: And for me and Catherine as my friend. You see

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Speaker 1: the difference this time around, right Oh yeah? I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I know you're and and it's and I can

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Speaker 1: definitely see a difference in you this time and really

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Speaker 1: taking you don't like to be alone. That's the one

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Speaker 1: thing that she doesn't. I love to be alone. She

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Speaker 1: hates to be alone. But you've started, I'm like, learned

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Speaker 1: to love to be alone and you like it now.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy. But that's where I can see you're growing.

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Speaker 1: You're taking the time to enjoy. I saw a quote

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Speaker 1: the other day I meant to send to you, but

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Speaker 1: it basically was about you can't be good in a

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Speaker 1: relationship or a marriage if you're not happy with yourself

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Speaker 1: and if you're not, if you're not in a good place.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you're realizing that and you you are,

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Speaker 1: you're working on that, and I think it's great, and

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that. It's just yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: I do have that battle sometimes because I think, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have been in an unhappy I have been unhappy

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Speaker 1: for so many years and I've just been fighting it.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, don't I deserve to like go out and

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Speaker 1: have fun and and be treated nice and kind. And

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Speaker 1: you know it's I know that I do deserve that,

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Speaker 1: but I need to that's in time, um, because right now,

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Speaker 1: I really just need to focus on my kids. I

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Speaker 1: need to focus on myself. I need to focus on

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Speaker 1: my healing because I still I still miss my ex.

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Speaker 1: I still have those days where I miss our family

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Speaker 1: and I miss what we had and I wish things

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Speaker 1: were different. And that's that's a really hard thing to

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Speaker 1: to feel on days when I want to be strong.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's also normal to to. You know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: I never in a million years wanted this to happen ever,

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Speaker 1: or ever, ever, I mean I I yeah, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have wished this on anyone. I wouldn't have wished it

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Speaker 1: on our family. And so yeah, I miss I miss

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Speaker 1: my family, I miss I miss my ex and but

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Speaker 1: I have to think about what do I miss And

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Speaker 1: that's kind of where I'm at right now and going

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Speaker 1: through that and realizing and finding out like, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: is the truth? What is the reality in that situation?

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Speaker 1: And you know, yes, we are better off as co parents,

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Speaker 1: as hard as it is, but I think that's just

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Speaker 1: part of the healing process and until my heart can

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Speaker 1: finally be free from from that, and it's probably going

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Speaker 1: to take a really long time, and I have to

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Speaker 1: allow myself to heal, and I need to heal alone

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Speaker 1: because yeah, in the past, I would I would cope

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Speaker 1: with other people. I would cope with reaching out to

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Speaker 1: other men because that's what would make me feel better.

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Speaker 1: But now I just I need to be alone. And

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Speaker 1: you know, like Catherine was saying, like it's I do

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Speaker 1: love to be alone now and I enjoy it. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: but he's a great friend and you know who knows

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Speaker 1: down the line when I'm ready. But on a side note,

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Speaker 1: can a girl just go out on a few dates

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Speaker 1: like come on, um, but no, I'm I'm doing the work.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like I almost need almost being my

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Speaker 1: therapist on here to back me up because it's a

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Speaker 1: because she knows the work that I've been doing. And

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Speaker 1: I want to get into that grieving with um, with

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Speaker 1: you all because it's important. And again for me, I

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Speaker 1: know that as much as I would like to put

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Speaker 1: a band aid on things, that's not going to be

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Speaker 1: the long fix because I look back in some of

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Speaker 1: my journal entries and I'm like, man, like I need

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Speaker 1: to break this pattern of what I believe in myself,

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Speaker 1: what I believe that I deserve, because I have you know,

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Speaker 1: my first relationship was an abusive relationship and like why

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Speaker 1: how could I stay in there? Like what was Why

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Speaker 1: did I say so little of myself to stay in

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Speaker 1: that situation? And and would I have stayed, you know,

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Speaker 1: with things that happened early on in my relationship with Mike,

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Speaker 1: Like if I loved myself more, maybe I wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: in the situation now. And I think having that realization

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Speaker 1: that there's so many things that I I wish I

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Speaker 1: can go back and do and I can't. And that's

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Speaker 1: something that you know, I don't regret the past, but

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Speaker 1: now I have the like, the chance and the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to create what I deserve, what I want, and I

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Speaker 1: had to figure that out. I gotta I gotta break

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Speaker 1: these patterns. I gotta break these cycles that that I do.

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Speaker 1: And that's again that that means that I need to

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Speaker 1: do it alone. And I'm proud of myself for that

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Speaker 1: because it's not easy. But I have amazing friends like

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Speaker 1: Catherine and um yeah, and it's hard to see comments

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Speaker 1: because people are like, oh my god, she's moving on,

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Speaker 1: like j Lo and that's like, look, we all cope

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Speaker 1: in different ways, but you don't know the behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: And so that's another reason why I'm bringing my therapist

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Speaker 1: not to back me the heck up today. Um but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love you guys, I love you Cat, and let's

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Speaker 1: get my therapist done. I totally just sprung this on

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Speaker 1: my therapist. I just texted her because it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where I'm like, we're talking about this grief

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Speaker 1: and like how to handle and how to deal with it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, and also because of everything that just

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Speaker 1: kind of came out in the news and stuff, it's

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Speaker 1: like I am doing the work. And I almost felt

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Speaker 1: like I had to have my therapist to like validate

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Speaker 1: that I am doing the work, right, Amy, Okay, absolutely

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Speaker 1: lots of times, twice a week, but absolutely every week

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Speaker 1: we meet. Yeah, and you've you've been here for almost

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Speaker 1: two years doing the work, so you've been committed to

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Speaker 1: the work even when there wasn't a crisis. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's I'm curious too because when we talk about grieving,

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Speaker 1: how like, is it okay to feel in one moment

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Speaker 1: that I'm happy. In the next moment I come home

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Speaker 1: and I'm just like shattered and destroyed? Is that is

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Speaker 1: that normal in the grieving process? And kind of like

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Speaker 1: as I feel like I'm on this hamster wheel? Sure, sure, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know there's a metaphor that I really love to

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Speaker 1: give when I'm talking about grief and when you've been

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Speaker 1: through something traumatic, And some people think about the big

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Speaker 1: T traumas, right, so maybe a natural disaster, sexual assault, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, gun violence, those are our big teas. Small

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Speaker 1: T traumas can be being bullied, made fun of, body shamed,

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Speaker 1: but any trauma that negatively impacts your view of yourself

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Speaker 1: or your world, So it could be the result is

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Speaker 1: something like I'm unworthy because of what's happened to me.

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Speaker 1: I'm a lovable it was my fault, I was response able.

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Speaker 1: So those are those negative beliefs that begin to to

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Speaker 1: seep in when we when we're not doing our work.

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Speaker 1: But when you've experienced a trauma, it's though a grief

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Speaker 1: enter excuse me, a grief river enters your property, okay,

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Speaker 1: and that loss and the sadness that you feel about

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Speaker 1: that loss isn't going anywhere. The truth is that that's

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Speaker 1: going to be on your property for the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life. Now, what we're looking for is movement, So

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Speaker 1: we want the river to move. Now. Sometimes it's gonna

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Speaker 1: move quickly and swiftly, and the sun is shining down

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Speaker 1: on it and the water is sparkling, and and that's

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Speaker 1: a great day that, as you just described, you feel

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Speaker 1: like you're making progress and you have hope for the future.

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Speaker 1: Some days though, the water is barely a trickle, and

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Speaker 1: it's murky and muddy and heavy and hard and gloomy,

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Speaker 1: but it's moving. Now. As a therapist, what we're looking

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Speaker 1: for is places where the river gets dammed up and

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Speaker 1: those trauma sticks that damn up the river like a

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Speaker 1: beaver drip damn are usually the way something ended. So

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Speaker 1: it might be the way that someone looked at you

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Speaker 1: at the very last conversation. It might be the things

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Speaker 1: that you wanted to say and you never got to say,

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Speaker 1: or the awful things you did say and that was

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Speaker 1: the last conversation you had. So we're looking for those

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Speaker 1: things that stopped the river from flowing, because grief should

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Speaker 1: be moving, it should be adaptive, and it should change.

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Speaker 1: And most people are familiar with the stages of grief

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Speaker 1: right so denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, those are not linear.

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Speaker 1: We don't get to move through those in order. One

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Speaker 1: day you may be an acceptance and the next day

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Speaker 1: you may be back in full throttle anger. Um. One

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Speaker 1: thing I would mention is that David Kessler, who's a

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Speaker 1: world renowned grief expert. I think the world of him

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Speaker 1: and his work. He has recently come out with a

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Speaker 1: new book called Finding Meaning, and he has essentially formally

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Speaker 1: added a sixth stage to grief. And with him he

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Speaker 1: lost his son, his adult child, very unexpectedly, and he

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Speaker 1: often says it wasn't the grief expert who lost his

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Speaker 1: and it was the parent, the dad who lost a son.

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Speaker 1: And after that, he worked his way through all these stages.

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Speaker 1: He came to acceptance, which means, um, I can accept

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Speaker 1: that something has ended and my love goes on. But

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Speaker 1: he thought, you know what, this can't be it. This

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Speaker 1: cannot be the end of my process. And so he

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Speaker 1: discovered that the final stages finding meaning how do we

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Speaker 1: make sense of our loss in a way where we

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Speaker 1: can help others and carry on a legacy of love

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Speaker 1: and goodness and forgiveness. Right, I have a question for you, Amy,

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Speaker 1: coming from like the friend perspective of someone that's going

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Speaker 1: through it, you know. I mean, I've been here a

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Speaker 1: long time with Janna and all of the processes, but

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Speaker 1: it's kind of hard because he has friends. We just

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Speaker 1: want to be like, like, let's get up, let's go

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Speaker 1: have fun, like we want to you know, we want

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Speaker 1: to keep her happy. We don't want to see her sad.

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Speaker 1: But I think, you know, I've realized kind of in

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Speaker 1: this process that we need to be a little bit

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Speaker 1: better at letting her grieve and letting her have her moment.

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Speaker 1: But you know, so I kind of just wonder what

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Speaker 1: is the best way to handle that, like give her

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Speaker 1: her time, but then hey, let's let's go, let's get up,

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Speaker 1: let's go do things, or just let her have that

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Speaker 1: and just let her be or what what is kind

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Speaker 1: of your advice there? Well, you've asked a great question

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Speaker 1: in general, but you've asked a great question on behalf

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Speaker 1: of your friend. So we never want to try to

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Speaker 1: talk someone out of their grief. Grief is as unique

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Speaker 1: as your fingerprint, So your grief is going to be

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Speaker 1: totally different than someone else's, and we need to give

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Speaker 1: people permission to be where they are now. We do

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Speaker 1: need different types of friends in our grief. We need

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Speaker 1: people who can distract us for a while. We need

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Speaker 1: someone who we can laugh with, we need someone who

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Speaker 1: we can rage with. But it's on us to know

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Speaker 1: what our needs are and to communicate those things to

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Speaker 1: our friends. That's one of the really hard parts of

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Speaker 1: grief is that we end up having to educate the

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Speaker 1: people around us about what we need. But we do

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Speaker 1: have to do that now. For Janna in particular, I

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Speaker 1: would say that she she has the ability to be

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Speaker 1: very self aware, And I think you could ask for

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Speaker 1: what do you need in the this moment? Do you

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Speaker 1: want me to sit on the floor and rip up

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Speaker 1: old letters with you. You know, I think about Janna

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Speaker 1: the first time you came to session after some things

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Speaker 1: had come out. Um, we had a funeral for you

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Speaker 1: in session. We both wore black, I had a coffin

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Speaker 1: on the coffee table. We wrote a eulogy to the marriage,

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Speaker 1: and we held a funeral service and it was it

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Speaker 1: was hard and heavy but important. At other times we've

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Speaker 1: laughed and um talked about things you're hopeful about and

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Speaker 1: looking forward to. But you get to be in charge.

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Speaker 1: You get to be the judge of what you need

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Speaker 1: in any given moments. So Catherine, I would just say,

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Speaker 1: asked Janna what she needs, and she'll probably be able

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Speaker 1: to tell you that it's good for her to practice

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Speaker 1: using her voice. Yeah, and we we had something it

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Speaker 1: was like very soon after everything where it was just

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Speaker 1: like I think I I snapped a little bit. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I just like, I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 1: even think he snapped. I think I just I've been

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Speaker 1: in this situation before and we had had kind of

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Speaker 1: not you know, just like she did had kind of

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Speaker 1: snapped at me, and so I just kind of withdrew.

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Speaker 1: This was years ago, so this time after it happened.

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Speaker 1: I had been there a lot, but then I had

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Speaker 1: three kids and I was out of town and I

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Speaker 1: had sports every night, and so my guilt was you

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Speaker 1: have you haven't done anything, but I could feel you

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Speaker 1: kind of withdraw a little bit. So I just said, hey,

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Speaker 1: like I just need you to know that. Like I

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Speaker 1: don't even remember exactly what I said, but it was

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Speaker 1: basically like I'm here for you and whatever you need.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that i've been busy, you know, but also

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how to I don't examine

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Speaker 1: maneuver it. Yeah, there was definitely that, but also in

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Speaker 1: the very beginning because we worked together, you like, I

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Speaker 1: was like I'm trying, like I was just like it

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Speaker 1: was one of those where that's where I kind of

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Speaker 1: I just started crying. I like, this is not easy.

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Speaker 1: I know, like and yes, and you're like, I know,

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Speaker 1: but like she also has the position where she has

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Speaker 1: to talk to me as my manager, you know, So

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Speaker 1: it's like that really hard. Like there's a rule there's

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Speaker 1: a dual role there, the friendship and manager, and there

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Speaker 1: can be a conflict of interest that arises at times

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Speaker 1: that you guys will have to sort through. But Catherine,

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Speaker 1: I would say your needs matter just as much as

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Speaker 1: Janna's needs, and sometimes her grief needs aren't going to

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Speaker 1: match up with your capacity or your availability, and it's

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Speaker 1: okay for both of you to say, my need is this.

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Speaker 1: We aren't in sync right now. You're gonna need to

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Speaker 1: reach out to someone else in your support system, and

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Speaker 1: it's okay for you to say that. And I believe

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Speaker 1: Janna can respect that boundary. Yeah, and I think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think we did a really good job.

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Speaker 1: This is great, I'll see you next week. But I

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Speaker 1: think we did a good job of having a group

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Speaker 1: of friends that we all acknowledge that, like, hey, like

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Speaker 1: I got this going on at home right now, I

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Speaker 1: can't be there. Are you good to go check on Janna?

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Speaker 1: And that we have this like text message going on

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Speaker 1: to make sure that everyone And I think that helped it.

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Speaker 1: It took a lot of it off, but yeah, in

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Speaker 1: that moment, I think there are times I just have

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Speaker 1: to say, you know, manager hat On, like so sorry,

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Speaker 1: we gotta do X, Y and Z. But then it's like,

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Speaker 1: all right, friend, hat how are you you know? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I hear you about that. I think I'm grateful for

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Speaker 1: opportunity to talk to one of Janna's friends. I would

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Speaker 1: love to talk more, but I think Janna is working

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Speaker 1: through knowing that she's okay on her own, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's great that you all rallied and that you

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Speaker 1: guys were there for her around the clock. I also

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Speaker 1: think it's really okay for her to have uncomfortable moments

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Speaker 1: where she figures it out by herself, because this process

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Speaker 1: of finding herself again is sort of like taking a

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Speaker 1: flashlight into a dark library and just beginning to shine

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Speaker 1: the light on what might be in there. And there

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Speaker 1: will come a moment when Janna flips the switch and

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Speaker 1: realizes all the strength and all the determination and clarity

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Speaker 1: that she has within her that she can easily defer

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Speaker 1: to other people. Um she's looking for someone else to

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Speaker 1: to show her away forward or to what is the

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Speaker 1: right answer, what is my next right step? And ultimately,

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Speaker 1: you know, our process is about you learning to trust

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Speaker 1: yourself enough to to believe in you. So in that

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Speaker 1: process of you know, because obviously I wanted you know,

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Speaker 1: do you think differently in the very beginning of this

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Speaker 1: is like, Okay, what I know that I still have

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Speaker 1: so much healing and grieving to do. And I know

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Speaker 1: there's not a timeline, but when do you It's not

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Speaker 1: not like when do you know your heal? But it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: we measure progress in millimeters. I mean, what are those

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Speaker 1: very small incremental things that you can give yourself success

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Speaker 1: and credit for? And and grief is like that, and

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Speaker 1: so is recovering from traumatic relationships. And what would you

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Speaker 1: say to that? What are a few small things that

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Speaker 1: you can give yourself credit for? Since April one? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm able to laugh and have enjoyed myself. I'm able

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Speaker 1: to be alone. I'm able to find moments of happiness.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just those moments where I come home

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Speaker 1: and go, oh crap, Like I was. I was more

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Speaker 1: upset with myself when I came back from Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, I thought I was better.

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Speaker 1: I thought like, I didn't think I would have this

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Speaker 1: like cauling my eyes out experience again on the couch

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Speaker 1: and like so it's like sometimes I feel like that

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Speaker 1: makes me be like, oh crap, I'm I'm so far

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Speaker 1: away from where I thought I was. That's just that's

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Speaker 1: just being realistic and honest with the amount of loss

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Speaker 1: and devastation that you faced. I mean, your world was

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Speaker 1: turned upside down very quickly. If six to eight weeks

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Speaker 1: later you were over it, I'd be very worried about you.

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Speaker 1: So I love that you're giving yourself permission to have hard,

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Speaker 1: sad days as you should, and you're healing will come

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00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,439
Speaker 1: in direct proximity to you being less engaged with toxic people.

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Speaker 1: The less engagement, the further progress you will make. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I hear you on that. I like her. Yeah, I know,

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Speaker 1: well she always knows like whenever I'm you know, I

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Speaker 1: know you know when I'm in in that web of

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Speaker 1: because my my whole body changes, my whole attitude changes,

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Speaker 1: my whole Well, I asked you this Monday, I said,

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Speaker 1: whose opinions really matter to you? Because you do have

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Speaker 1: a lot of people complimenting you and saying nice things

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Speaker 1: to you. But I can kind of see this look

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00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 1: in your eye, like you agree and you're thankful, but

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Speaker 1: it's not sinking in. It's not hitting you at your core.

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Speaker 1: And so who has the power to say unkind things

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Speaker 1: or kind things and for it to really hit you

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Speaker 1: in a way where it's believable. Um, So I think

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Speaker 1: that's an important question for you to look at and

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Speaker 1: and where where do they get that power? How do

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Speaker 1: they earn that spot in your life? M You've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of people talking at you. You're in a

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Speaker 1: privileged position of receiving a lot of advice and insight.

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Speaker 1: The real changes are gonna come when you're hearing yourself

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Speaker 1: and you trust that voice. Yeah, and see, that's that's

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Speaker 1: the place where I want to where I want to

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Speaker 1: be and where you know, it's it was hard for

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Speaker 1: me with everything that kind of came out with, you know,

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Speaker 1: my my dating life and because you know, again I'm

417
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: not in anything committed. I am having fun and I'm

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Speaker 1: enjoying myself, but I'm also realizing those moments where I

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Speaker 1: need to be alone and I need to have those moments,

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Speaker 1: but I don't want that to be because I'm listening

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Speaker 1: to people saying, oh, she's moving too fast or oh

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00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: it's like what do I feel? It's like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Like I have to like sit with that and like

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Speaker 1: process that. But unfortunately, because I do do this show

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Speaker 1: and I am open, you know, it's it's I'm set

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Speaker 1: up for people's comments and criticism, and which is the

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Speaker 1: point where I'm like, I don't want to do the

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Speaker 1: show anymore, like because I don't talk about that. Your

429
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: vulnerability is a gift to the world. You offer something

430
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: remarkable in how transparent you are, but it's only a

431
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: gift when you're managing it. When you allow people to

432
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 1: back you into a corner and share something before you're

433
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: ready or before you're sure what the implications will be,

434
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: then it's a weapon that's used against you. And so

435
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: you have to slow down enough to know what you're

436
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: sharing and when you're ready to share it. Yeah, yeah,

437
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: I mean it's just so much noise when you're in

438
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: the position that you're in. There's so much noise between

439
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: your friends, between the fans, between everybody, and it's any

440
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: normal person that's going to affect I think you're kind

441
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 1: of hard on yourself because you want it to affect you.

442
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: But anyone would who's not going to worry about that.

443
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: I mean, that's normal. And with like the yeah I

444
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: hear I can definitely hear you on that, and with

445
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 1: going through the process of you know, divorce and grieving,

446
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: what are some things that people can do to not

447
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: like like I beat myself up over it. I beat

448
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: myself up that I'm that I have those hard days.

449
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: And I know you say you want me to have

450
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: those moments and those feelings. But what are some things

451
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: that I can, you know, either allow myself grace or

452
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: things that I can be like, Okay, I'm gonna now.

453
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: I don't want to stay in it because when I

454
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: stay in it, I think I should feel it. But

455
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: I also don't want to like stay stuck there either. Okay.

456
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: I almost hear two questions there. For one, you need

457
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: to give yourself permission to feel sadness about the end

458
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: of this marriage. Even a fifteen years from now, you

459
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: still have moments where you feel sad that it didn't

460
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: go like you wanted it to or you thought it would.

461
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 1: That's appropriate. Sadness is an appropriate response for this loss, Jannah.

462
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: And so I think you know what you resist persists.

463
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: So the harder you try not to be sad, um,

464
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: the more that it's gonna stockpile and come outsideways. So

465
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: give yourself a moment to cry and grieve and honor

466
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: what wasn't and what was, and then you'll move forward

467
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: from it. Um. So I think that's really important. I

468
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: actually don't hear you being hard on yourself about having

469
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: hard days or sad moments. I hear you being hard

470
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: on yourself about other things. UM, do you want to

471
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: go there? Do you know? Want to? This is all all?

472
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: You know? What works for you, what's good for you?

473
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: You're hard on yourself about? Uh? You know? Am I

474
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: good enough? Am I worthy? Was this my fault? Will

475
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: anyone ever really love the real need? Those are the

476
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: places where I think you get stuck. It's not about

477
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: having that day. Uh yeah? Do you want to share

478
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: some of those, um negative beliefs that run pretty deep

479
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: for you? I think, I mean, that's that was what

480
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: we I mean, that's I was just in your office

481
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: last week, like destroyed about those feelings, feeling like, yeah,

482
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: I was my fault, or if I would have done this,

483
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: this would have been different, or if I would have Yeah,

484
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: I mean all I just don't feel or like that

485
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: I was good enough for I wasn't lovable enough for UM?

486
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 1: And that's um. It just sucks like to feel, you know,

487
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: and we trace that back. It goes way back beyond

488
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: this relationship, doesn't it. It links back to early childhood.

489
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: And that's the value of the m d R and

490
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: brain spotting and some of the work that we're doing.

491
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: And I know you'd love to be three sessions and

492
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: they're good. Um you you had many years of this

493
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: kind of drama though, and so it does take some time.

494
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: H yeah, I mean I hear all that. I think

495
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: it's just I know, how do I say this? Like

496
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: if again, if I put myself into my friends situation,

497
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: if Katherine was feeling this way about her, I would

498
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: be like, what, Like you're incredible, Like it's just it's

499
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: just or is someone listening right now? Like I don't

500
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: want people to feel like they're not worthy, that they're

501
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: not lovable. I'm the first person to be like, you

502
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: are so lovable, you are so you're kind enough and

503
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: you you never deserve this and you are enough. It's like,

504
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: why can't people say that to themselves? M h m hm. Well,

505
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: I think you've just had a lot, a lot of

506
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: life experiences and negative voices that have spoken messages that

507
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: were contrary to that. And they were typically in relationships

508
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: where you were in a vulnerable position. I mean you

509
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: needed that person to love you, protect you, to provide,

510
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: and so you were in a fragile place. And again

511
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: your loyalty, kindness, and forgiveness were used against you, and

512
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: they're that's psychological TERRORISTM. You know, we we call it

513
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: intimate terrorism, but there is recovery. Right. Well, okay, let

514
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: me ask you, how would you define that for you?

515
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: What is it? What's your best hope for healing in

516
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: your life? M? That I one day realized that it

517
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: wasn't my faults, that I am deserving of a great love,

518
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: that I actually believe that, and that I am enough

519
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: no matter whether I'm single, married, alone, like wherever I'm at,

520
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 1: like that I am enough and I'm I'm I'm worthy.

521
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: It's just like even saying it like I'm like, because

522
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: it's like I'm just not there yet. Yeah, And you

523
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: have to be alone long enough to know it when

524
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: you're alone, right, I mean, So we've talked about the

525
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: fact that it's like we go through life sitting in

526
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: a chair and this chair next to us is empty

527
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: and it's open for the person who we can do

528
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: life and partnership with. But we hate having an empty

529
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: chair next to us. It's embarrassing, it's lonely, and so

530
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: we kind of let whoever walks by just sit in

531
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: the chair to avoid discomfort, it has to sit empty

532
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: for a while. That's called the sacred space. Or we're

533
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: having to, you know, confront our own insecurities. And you

534
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: have you have said, I think publicly and to me

535
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: that you've been amazed at how much your anxiety has

536
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: decreased in the middle of the night. That's a win.

537
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: That's a big win for you to know you don't

538
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: have to have someone in the house with you to

539
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: be okay. So on a scale of one to ten,

540
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: how I know where you were a few days ago,

541
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: How strongly do you feel that you are worthy and

542
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: lovable and deserving? And this isn't all your fault. I

543
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: think the other day I was four. I think I'm

544
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: at like five and a half today. Okay, some progress

545
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: and you get to come back and have it be

546
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: at a three to you know what I mean. It's okay.

547
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: But there is hope, there is yeah, for everyone listening.

548
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: There is hope in knowing and believe and in growth

549
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: and right yeah, yess. I also want you to plug too,

550
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: because the refuge center UM is in in is in Tennessee,

551
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: and can you can you just give a healthy plug

552
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: for for what you do and what the Refuge Center

553
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: can offer to those that um that need this, and

554
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: because I think we all need it. I think we

555
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: all a safe space. And you've given me an incredible

556
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: space space to come on some of my worst days,

557
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: and I'll forever be thankful for you. Well, hey, research

558
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: says that any given moment, we all have about three

559
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: point two blind spots. Those are the things that everybody

560
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: else about us around us knows about us, so we

561
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: don't know about ourselves. So people say, when's a good

562
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: time to go to therapy, Well, pretty much anytime, because

563
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: we all have things we need to work on that

564
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: other people could tell us we need to work on.

565
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, we should all have our iron

566
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: sharpens iron people around us. And sometimes that's a therapist.

567
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a life coach, a spiritual director, a yoga instructor,

568
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: your acupuncturist. But we need people helping us be better

569
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: and stronger. So the Refuge Center for Counseling, my friend

570
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: Jennifer Gilet and I co founded it back in two

571
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: thousand and five, so this is our sixteenth year of operation.

572
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: We do offer all of our services on a sliding

573
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: scale based on income, so anyone, no matter who you are,

574
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: what you've done, what's been done to you, what you

575
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: can afford. Um. Everyone deserves access to wonderful care. And

576
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: we provide about thirty one thousand counseling sessions a year

577
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: for around four thousand people. And UM, yeah, this place

578
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: uh is you know. Counseling is about removing the burdens,

579
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: barriers and shame stories so that people can live in freedom.

580
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: And we're we're doing that here. Yeah, and if you're

581
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: in the Tennessee area, please please please please go to

582
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: Refuge because it's it's incredible. Um. But hopefully this inspires

583
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: people that are listening right now that we can all

584
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: we can all do some work on ourselves to be

585
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: the best versions um that we can be. You're a

586
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: great example of that, Janna. I hope you'll feel very

587
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: proud of that today. Thanks Amy, I love you so much.

588
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: I see you next week in the office. And thank

589
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: you for like I said that you've been You've saved

590
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: me in many ways, So thank you help you've saved

591
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: you in many ways. Right, Okay, I love, love, love,

592
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: I see you later. She's incredible. I love Amy so much, amazing.

593
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: I mean, as a friend, like, do you know because

594
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: it's like you always wonder like am I going to therapy?

595
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: Like is this therapist good? Because I'll let you because

596
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, we have conversations about what you'll talk about.

597
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: But I mean, I know your therapist like really knows you.

598
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: But like I feel like I really know you. And

599
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: she says all those things, I'm like, she really knows good. Yeah,

600
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,239
Speaker 1: I know she's incredible. And yeah again, um, you know,

601
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: the Refuge Center is incredible. So if you're in the

602
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: Nashville area, please please please check it out. Um. And

603
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: she also mentioned David Kessler and when she mentioned that, uh,

604
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: the producer has popped on, saying, I think maybe we

605
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: can get him. So let's take a break and let's

606
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,239
Speaker 1: hopefully I think I think he's gonna be coming on.

607
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: So and before we take a break, I want to

608
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: talk about Zuru. So summer just got crazy with color crazy.

609
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: Bunch of Balloons by Zuru are here to help unleash

610
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,400
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611
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612
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613
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614
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615
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616
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: love to do. So jump into summer with an all

617
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618
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619
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620
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Speaker 1: So visit zuru dot com you guys to find out

621
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: more about the hottest toys for summer. Because my kids

622
00:32:52,520 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: are all about the bubble game, you don't know. We're

623
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: all about that high school drama. Girl, drama girl, all

624
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: about them high school queens and forever. We'll take you

625
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: for a ride at our comic girl cheering for the

626
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: right drama queens girl fashion, but you'll tough, girls. You

627
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: could sit with us Girl Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama,

628
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama Queens. Hey, this is

629
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Speaker 1: Bethany joy Lynn and Sophia Bush and Hillary Burton and

630
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: we have a podcast called Drama Queens. I feel like

631
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: it's a walk down memory lane that also might be

632
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of a stumble down memory lane. I mean,

633
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: we'll have cocktails sometimes so we might leave stumbling. I'm

634
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: good with that. There are no fans like One Tree

635
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: Hill fans. There is no family like our family. So

636
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: we got together to do a rewatch podcast to relive

637
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: the show as so many of you have so many times,

638
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: because to be honest, we haven't Yeah, we haven't seen

639
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: it since two thousand and two, two thousand three. We

640
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: can't wait to take this trip up down memory lane

641
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: with all of you. What would our characters be doing

642
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: right now? I think Hayley would probably be I mean,

643
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: she's got to be close to an empty uster now

644
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: right like um Jamie's out of the house. She might

645
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: she might be finally ready to live out those wild

646
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: years that you know what I mean. I think it

647
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: might be time. I'm going to say a lot of therapy.

648
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: Peyton Sawyer is in so much therapy right now, well

649
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: not long ago. I found my vote Brooke Davis for

650
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: president pinn I don't know it's Brooke Davis Senator or

651
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: something like that. There's so much cool stuff to imagine

652
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: for them. But before we can go forward, we got

653
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning. You nailed it. Make

654
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: sure you all listen to Drama Queens on the I

655
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

656
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave

657
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram

658
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: at Drama Queens O t H or mail us at

659
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you

660
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: next time. We're all about that high school drama. Girl,

661
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 1: Drama Girl, all about them high school queens and forever.

662
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: We'll take you for a rod at our comic girl

663
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: cheering for the right drama Cueens, go up, girl fashion,

664
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: but you'll tough. Girl. You could sit with us Girl

665
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: Drama Queens, Drama, Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama,

666
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Queen's David, Hi, Darlin, where are you at. I'm in

667
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, I mean Los Angeles right now. Well, I'm

668
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: excited to be with you. Sorry under these circumstances, but

669
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: still excited. I mean, yes, same. And also, I was

670
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: just talking to my therapist on here and she she

671
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: mentioned you because she's a she's a huge fan, and

672
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: and um, you know the fact that we have you

673
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: on right afterwards is awesome because she was saying that

674
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: in your book you talked about the sixth basically step

675
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: of grieving, right, the sixth stage, right, sixth stage, and

676
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: that is can you talk about that? Because when she

677
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: said that, it like it almost gave me goose bumps.

678
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: So as as you know, I've seen you talk about

679
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: it before. People often talk about the stages of grief.

680
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: There's denial, anger, bargaining all the what ifs and if only, depression,

681
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: which is the sadness, and then acceptance. I think we're

682
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: a generation that doesn't want to stop at acceptance. I

683
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: think we want more, and I think that more is

684
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: finding meaning, that these experiences, these losses, the things we've

685
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: gone through aren't just for the sake of nothing. That

686
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have to come through things with

687
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress. We actually can come through them with

688
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth. And to me, that's sixth stage. The

689
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: stage of meaning is that I guess I'm just and

690
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: I and I absolutely love that. But the meaning, I

691
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: feel like there's I hear them like, yes, there's a

692
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: there's a meaning, and there's a reason. It's almost like

693
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: a reason to me. But is it still okay to

694
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: go on that hamster wheel of all those emotions? Even

695
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: though there is a meaning, absolutely, and you know you

696
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: can't heal what you don't feel, so you have to

697
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: feel all those things. And grief is organic. There's like

698
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: there there's no you know we talked about those stages

699
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: aren't linear. You can one moment be thinking about the meaning,

700
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: the next moment being I can't believe this is happening

701
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: to me, The next moment go back into the what ifs.

702
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: It's very organic and messy, you know. If anything, I'd

703
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: like to tell people the reality is grief as messy.

704
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: If you're trying to meeting it up, you just got

705
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: to know it's messy. But one of the things I

706
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: like to talk about with meaning is people here meaning

707
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: and they'll go, well, there's no meaning in a horrible death,

708
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: or there's no meaning in a divorce, there's no meaning

709
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: in you know, upsetting our children's worlds. And I'll go, no,

710
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: meaning isn't in the divorce or the death or the grief.

711
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: Meaning is in us. It's what we do after. It's

712
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: how we hold this experience. You know, are you going

713
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: to hold it as life is screwed up? Things go wrong?

714
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: There's no point life is horrible and your kids are

715
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: watching that are you going to hold it as you know,

716
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: sometimes life's messy and sometimes things don't work out the

717
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: way we think, and sometimes there's not a fairy tale

718
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: ending and life is still good and life is still

719
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: hopeful and we can still make it work. And yes,

720
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: we're going to be sad, we're going to be depressed.

721
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: It's going to be challenging, but we can get through this.

722
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's great. Why is life so hard some time?

723
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's just sometimes it's just there's

724
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: there can be so much heaviness and it's just like

725
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: right now, like I'm I think, you know, how can

726
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: someone attract the light when there is that darkness? Well,

727
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: that's that's like been the question I've been asking my

728
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: whole life. And I think it's by naming moments as meaningful.

729
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 1: You know, in this darkness of losses, of deaths, of divorce,

730
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: of grief, of children and all that, you and I

731
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: are taking a few moments to talk about the light

732
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: and remember the light and to know that the light

733
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: exists even in all of this, and just us bringing

734
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: up the light is us remembering the hope mm hmm.

735
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: And it's these moments to do it. This is a

736
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: meaningful moment to me. Those moments that you have to

737
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: explain the worst kid thing that could happen to your

738
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: kids so far in their life will also be a

739
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: meaningful moment to them that Mommy, in the midst of

740
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: everything cared about their well being and that will be

741
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: meaningful to them because, you know what, we want to

742
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: make sure our kids and all of us avoids life

743
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: losses and tragedies and divorces. But as you said, life

744
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: is hard, and these things happen, and our kids are

745
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 1: going to go through them, and if we can show

746
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: them it is part of life, and we continue, you know,

747
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: speaking of the kids. And you know, I had to

748
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: comment someone reach out to me that said, you know,

749
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: you should stop talking about and I don't talk about

750
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: my ex, but I talked about my experiences. Um, and

751
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: someone had said, you know, you shouldn't you shouldn't be

752
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: talking about it because your kids are gonna hear this

753
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: one day, And and I really sat with me to

754
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: the point where again I was just like, Okay, I'm

755
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 1: not gonna, I'm not I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna

756
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: talk about anything anymore. But then I also realized I'm like, well,

757
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: these are my experiences. I'm not dragging. I'm not saying

758
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: what he did. I'm not you know, but I really

759
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: like I battled with that comment because I was really

760
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: because I still I still feel like I can help people.

761
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: But am I going to hurt? Am I hurting my kids?

762
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: With this being my experience? You asking that question puts

763
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: you in the level of taking your kids into account,

764
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: which just means you're holding in a way where you're

765
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: worried about your kids too, and that's going to safeguard it.

766
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: The thing we often talk about is we don't want

767
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: to make our kids are counselors. You don't want to

768
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: tell them the worst thing about you know, their father,

769
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: and you also get to talk about your truth. And

770
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: if you remind them people do bad things, it doesn't

771
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: mean they don't have good parts of them, and it

772
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. But you still get

773
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: to be a person and react to the mistakes that

774
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: have hurt you. And I think if you teach the

775
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: kids you know this is hard, but Mommy's got this

776
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: and this is not anything to do with you guys,

777
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: in terms of it being your fault. It affects you.

778
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: But this is something that mommy and daddy are working out.

779
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: We got this. We're both gonna love you through it.

780
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: And you know, kids are going to see a lot

781
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: of things they shouldn't see later in life. You're gonna

782
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: have that issue with your kids even further than your stuff.

783
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: There's there's gonna be works than anything you say. You're

784
00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: gonna be worried about them looking at Yeah. True. Yeah.

785
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: So if there's if there's a takeaway for anyone listening

786
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: right now that feels like they're stuck, that feels like

787
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: there's no hope, that feels like there's you know that

788
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: they're not going to get out of this pain that

789
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: they're in. What's something that What's a little hope that

790
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: we can that you can give them? Sure? Yeah, Well,

791
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: just like you you know, we started with this idea

792
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: that there is no night that went on forever. You know,

793
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,479
Speaker 1: there is a light, there is hope, there is love.

794
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I always want people to know, no matter

795
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: what you've been through, there is love after loss. There

796
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: is life after loss, and that exists for you. And

797
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: partly you've got to believe in that. And I've already

798
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: heard from things you say you know that you believe

799
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: love will continue through this. I hope so I don't.

800
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: Then I'm just gonna be miserable. Like I fear it

801
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: and I'm terrified of it, and I'm scared to be

802
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: in the next thing. But I also know that I

803
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: do believe and I'll always believe in love because it

804
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 1: not then what is there to believe in? Like? I

805
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: love love, you know, it's it's our why, it's our

806
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: reason to be, It's everything we do. And love exists

807
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: in all of it. It exists in the lasses, that

808
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: exists in the tragedy, it exists in your hope, and

809
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: it exists in your future. And that's what we have

810
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: to remember. The other thing I would tell people is

811
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: this situation you're in is not you. It's what you're

812
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: going through. You don't have, you know, a broken head,

813
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: you have a broken heart. It's supposed to be tough,

814
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 1: and you were okay before this relationship, and you will

815
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: be okay after this relationship. You're going to have lots

816
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: of moments You're going to forget that every one of

817
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: us us and I think it's to also know, you know,

818
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: my specialty is grief and loss. Like the most horrible

819
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: tragedies in life. But I also want people to know

820
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 1: it's not just about death. When you're going through divorce,

821
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: when you're going through breakups and betrayal, those are some

822
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: of the hardest moments and all grief counts. You know,

823
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: when people ask me which is the worst loss, I

824
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: always say yours. Yours is the worst loss. There's always

825
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: going to be something in the world worse than you

826
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: and what you're going through, But it doesn't mean you

827
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: don't attend to your own pain, and that's what we

828
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: have to do and to find ourselves again after loss.

829
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: I love that. David. Thank you for coming on and

830
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: just sharing your words and um and your life. So

831
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: we have so appreciate you and hopefully we can continue

832
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: this conversation. Another epis said, thank you, and I'm telling

833
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: you you talking about it not only helps you but

834
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: helps others because we can feel pretty alone in our grief.

835
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: So thank you for talking about it. Thank you, David.

836
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Have a great day. Thank you too.

837
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: So that was awesome. I feel like hopefully that gives everybody,

838
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: I mean even Catherine, you know, when I know you're

839
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: not going through like a loss per se. But if

840
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: you're having a bad day, to note there's always the

841
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,479
Speaker 1: night doesn't last forever, which I'd love that. David said

842
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: that too, where it's there's always going to be light

843
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. Yeah, I think that's great,

844
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: and I think it's all of this has been really

845
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: good for me in the sense that, like I think

846
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: people forget you don't just grieve when you lose something

847
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 1: like a death, you know, And it's like, I think

848
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,240
Speaker 1: you only think of grieving when you have a death.

849
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: And I think it's like, you know, reminding everyone that

850
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: people need time to grieve the marriage or whatever happened,

851
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: I mean, whatever, that loss of a job, anything that

852
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Speaker 1: that you lost, Like, people need to grieve. So so

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Speaker 1: if you gotta cry right now, cry it out, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: But no, there will be light at the end of

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Speaker 1: the tunnel. And I'm in the tunnel, but I would

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Speaker 1: like to hold hands and let's all let's all go

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Speaker 1: out and see the light. Just might take a minute,

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Speaker 1: it might be a long tunnel. We'll see when I

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Speaker 1: see a little I see a little light at the end.

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Speaker 1: Love you guys, See you next week.