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Speaker 1: Push it. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, I'm already taking a knee.

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Speaker 1: I'm already on one knee. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: told you this, but my entire childhood I could not

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Speaker 1: sing the national anthem or do the Pledge of Allegiance

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Speaker 1: in school because growing up in the Nation of Islam,

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid in grammar school, that was

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Speaker 1: like we were just instructed from day one, Man, you

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Speaker 1: do not do it. That was my version of taking

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Speaker 1: a knee before there ever was a Colin Kaepernick. Man,

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Speaker 1: I'm with you. I'm Khalil Jebn Muhammed. I'm Ben Austin.

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Speaker 1: We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a

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Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of

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Speaker 1: my best friends are Some of my best friends are athletes.

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Speaker 1: In this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the

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Speaker 1: absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. And today

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Speaker 1: we have the franchise player for Pushkin Industries on our show,

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Speaker 1: the one and only Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell Outliers coming

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Speaker 1: inside with us. We are going to talk to him

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Speaker 1: about sports and activism and how politics and athletics. They intersect.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Game time. That's right, Game time, man, Malcolm.

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Speaker 1: It is so amazing to have you on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: We have been, uh, we've been We've been thinking about

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Speaker 1: this moment for years now. So I'm very flattered. That's

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Speaker 1: just that's just how old I am. People can think

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Speaker 1: about me for years. We are obviously excited to actually

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Speaker 1: have you in house in studio today. Thank you. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things we wanted to talk about today

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Speaker 1: is about athletes, sports and politics. And maybe a good

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Speaker 1: way to start is your great podcast, The Legacy of Speed,

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Speaker 1: and it tells the story of the nineteen sixty eight

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Speaker 1: Olympic Games and the track stars, the sort of unlikely

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Speaker 1: track stars from San Jose State, and maybe maybe you

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Speaker 1: could give us a quick synopsis of what happened in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight in the nineteen sixty eight Olympics and

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Speaker 1: why it's it's so important for understanding sports and politics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's um. In nineteen sixty eight, the you know there

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Speaker 1: there were all these great college teams. Maybe the most

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Speaker 1: iconic sports team of that era was the San Jose State.

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Speaker 1: San Jose State track team UM coach by gun named Budwinter,

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Speaker 1: who was this legendary sprint coach, and he takes this

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Speaker 1: gear commuter school because he has these new ideas about sprinting,

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Speaker 1: but how to sprint him run fast for a time.

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Speaker 1: He has a track team which has not just the

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Speaker 1: best sprinters in America, but the best sprinters in the world,

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Speaker 1: like multiple world record holders on one team, and several

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Speaker 1: members of that team are the ones who stage the

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Speaker 1: famous protest in Mexico City and with a we remember

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Speaker 1: on the stand of the of the two hundred beaters,

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Speaker 1: Tommy Smith and John Carlos raised their clenched fists right

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Speaker 1: as that iconic photograph. Um, well, Tommy Smith and John

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Speaker 1: Carlos were Bud Winter Runners. They were members of that

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Speaker 1: of that fable track team, and so it's like, it's

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Speaker 1: this really fascinating moment in sports. It has these incredible

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Speaker 1: cultural ramifications. So so black athletes, African American athletes, they

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Speaker 1: come in first and third in the two hundred. They're

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Speaker 1: wearing black leather gloves and they raise their fists above

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Speaker 1: them and it's like you said, it's one of the

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Speaker 1: most iconic images in sports. Yeah, that's right. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that and listening to the podcast and you're

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Speaker 1: visiting this moment, is is really learning about Harry Eetwards.

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Speaker 1: I'd love for you to say one more thing about

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Speaker 1: Harry Eetwards as someone who helped to make some of

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Speaker 1: this possible. So Edwards is also a San Jose guys.

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Speaker 1: He's on a part of that same track team. He's

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Speaker 1: a little older than the others, but he's the one

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Speaker 1: he sort of articulates a kind of philosophy, an ideology

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Speaker 1: of sports. People thought about sports as a kind of pasttime,

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Speaker 1: and he said, no, no, no no, what sports are a

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Speaker 1: kind of reflection of society's deepest beliefs, of its values,

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Speaker 1: of it that participating in sports can be as political

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Speaker 1: an act as demonstrating in the streets. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: was he articulately, it's a whole of sport as being

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Speaker 1: something that's embedded in the fabric of society. You can

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Speaker 1: study sport and learn about a society no one that

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Speaker 1: had not occurred to anyone before. As incredible as that

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Speaker 1: sounds today. So Harry Edwards goes and gets his PhD

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Speaker 1: in sociology and becomes the kind of he's kind of

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Speaker 1: the philosopher of this movement, and he's at the center.

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Speaker 1: He was at the center of the nineteen sixty eight protests.

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Speaker 1: He's the guy who's behind the scenes bringing these athletes together,

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what should our response be to

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Speaker 1: you know, the does as a black athlete have a

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Speaker 1: responsibility to say something in face of the kind of

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Speaker 1: not just racial oppression at home, but racial oppression around

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Speaker 1: the world. But then Harry Edwards goes on and you

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Speaker 1: can't find a political protest involving sports to this present

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Speaker 1: day that doesn't have his fingerprints on it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's just well, I want to unpack that moment and

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Speaker 1: its legacy particularly has been an eye like yourself, come

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Speaker 1: of age. You know, we are primarily seventies babies. We

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Speaker 1: become teenagers in the nineteen eighties, and we're tennis kids.

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Speaker 1: That was our childhood sport. In some ways, that's how

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Speaker 1: we met, playing high school tennis together and in sort

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Speaker 1: of thinking about my own sense of like who were

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Speaker 1: sports heroes that had a political consciousness. We also grew

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Speaker 1: up in the same neighborhood as Muhammad Ali wait Muhammad

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Speaker 1: Ali is living in Chicago, or Muhammad Ali owned a

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Speaker 1: home across the street. As you know, my great grandfathers,

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Speaker 1: Elijah Muhammad. They lived on the same block. So yes,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I remember seeing him outside the

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Speaker 1: computer store where Khalil and I met, and you know,

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Speaker 1: his Parkinson's might have already begun, and he had these

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Speaker 1: fists that were the size of like Catcher's mits, and

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Speaker 1: he was just sort of fooling around. Everyone's like, hey, champage,

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Speaker 1: champ and he would just like throw a jab and

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Speaker 1: it looked like a lightning flash. Yeah. Yeah, so we

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Speaker 1: so we you know, we have these personal encounters with

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Speaker 1: these sports grades and and perhaps none more significant at

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Speaker 1: the intersection of sports and politics than Muhammad Ali. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And by the time we are coming of age in

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Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, it's just a completely different political

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Speaker 1: time and a different political time for athletes, right, Like

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Speaker 1: that made me think of Michael Jordan. So we're growing

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Speaker 1: up in Chicago. We have the great fortune as sports

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Speaker 1: fans to be like in middle school when Michael Jordan

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Speaker 1: starts with the Bulls and to see him evolve into

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Speaker 1: the greatest maybe athlete of all time. And you know

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Speaker 1: what a ridiculous thing to root for this team where

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Speaker 1: like they're going to win all the time, because they

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Speaker 1: have this guy, you know, Superman. But but you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been doing all this work about this killing in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two where a seven year oldest shot to death.

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Speaker 1: And in the nineties it's actually the highest murder rate

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Speaker 1: in Chicago of all time. And you know, crack epidemic

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Speaker 1: is raging, there's so much there's this seven year old

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Speaker 1: is killed, and it's sort of like set into motion

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Speaker 1: this conversation about what to do and Michael Jordan nobody

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Speaker 1: on the bull nobody says anything. I mean, there's not

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Speaker 1: and there's I don't even think there's a demand to

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Speaker 1: say anything. It's so far from the discourse of that time.

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Speaker 1: You know, Michael Jordan has this famous comment right around

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Speaker 1: then when there's a Senate race in North Carolina where

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Speaker 1: he's from, and there's an arch conservative running against a

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Speaker 1: black candidate, and he says, Republicans buy sneakers too, meaning

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say anything. And I like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe throw this back at you, Malcolm. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: thinking about the ways that the athletes and politics actually

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Speaker 1: reflect their times, you know, rather than sort of shaping

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Speaker 1: the times. We very rapidly go from an euro where

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Speaker 1: people are demanding of black athletes like Arthur Ash or

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Speaker 1: cream Abdul Jabar or those sprinters in sixty eight or

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Speaker 1: Muhammad al either demanding that they be kind of complicit

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Speaker 1: in social change. And we in a space of not

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Speaker 1: a generation, I mean have a generation. Yeah, you get

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Speaker 1: you get Jordan who who you know, his alignments are

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Speaker 1: completely different. He's and he's able to say. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think Charles Barkley, remember that the I am not

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Speaker 1: a role model, not a role model says, He explicitly

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Speaker 1: declines to take up that particular burden and makes and

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Speaker 1: both of them, I think are making a justifiable argument,

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Speaker 1: which is in addition to all the other burdens I

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Speaker 1: have to bear. Why do I have to do this?

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Speaker 1: I'm just an athlete. I you know, I got a

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Speaker 1: lot of my played already, and you want me to

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Speaker 1: battle these things that are bigger than me and outside myself.

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Speaker 1: Do I agree with that? Not necessarily? I understand it though. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I also it's funny because this has been but Malcolm,

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Speaker 1: it's also it's corporate test. It's not just it's not

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Speaker 1: just like my craft, right, I mean that even the

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Speaker 1: Charles Barkley thing that he said was part of a

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Speaker 1: Nike advertisement campaign. Like it's sort of like I got mine, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But I mean what they're asking is to be treated

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Speaker 1: the same way a white athlete is treated. No one

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Speaker 1: asked Peyton Manning to speak up against speak out against,

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Speaker 1: you know, climate changer. More than that, Peyton Manning is

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Speaker 1: from New Orleans, a place with as serious of social

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Speaker 1: problems as you can find in the United States of America.

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Speaker 1: I guarantee you no one has ever said to Peyton,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about the fact that New Orleans

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Speaker 1: has got you know, murder rates that are through the

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Speaker 1: roof and dysfunctional this and that and so. Like if

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Speaker 1: I'm a black athlete and I'm watching that, I sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have great sympathy for them who say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, why why does Peyton get to watch?

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Speaker 1: Why does Tom Bradley get to Tom Brady? Tom Brady

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Speaker 1: get to you know, he tom Brady is rewarded more

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Speaker 1: than that. He is deified for his singular focus on

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Speaker 1: the game of football. They say, of demand or no distractions,

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Speaker 1: the game, you know, and everything that's all about. His

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Speaker 1: greatness is summed up by his complete and utter motion

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Speaker 1: of football. When a black athlete does that. They're like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know you're ignoring your community, You're not. At a

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Speaker 1: certain point that double standard becomes intolerable for these guys,

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Speaker 1: and Barkley Barkley and Jordan's just saying, you know, effort like,

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Speaker 1: I'm sick of this, and I so to see where

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Speaker 1: they're coming from. I do get the double standard. I'm

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Speaker 1: with you a thousand percent on that. I think the

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Speaker 1: difference is that Peyton Manny doesn't represent a community that's

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Speaker 1: metaphorically speaking underwater in New Orleans. I mean the country

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Speaker 1: we live in is the presumption this has Ben's I

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Speaker 1: think point about a corporate ethos is that Brady's an

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Speaker 1: extension of the franchise. He is the franchise, and the

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Speaker 1: franchise makes its money by not pissing off it's millions

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Speaker 1: of fans, and so the only people who really have

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Speaker 1: something to lose are the black people who see this

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Speaker 1: representative figure who has a platform and a voice to

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Speaker 1: actually say something because people are literally in the streets. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm working on this book about Los Angeles Black Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles in the thirties, forties and fifties, and it's a

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Speaker 1: kind of meta biography of Tom Bradley, and Bradley's part

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Speaker 1: of this group of athletes that are at UCLA in

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Speaker 1: the thirties, among them Jackie Robinson. Jackie Robinson is his classmate.

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Speaker 1: All these really interesting. They're a very very small group

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Speaker 1: with them, and all of them face a version of

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Speaker 1: this choice in their life and in this in their

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Speaker 1: case it's many of them are. A couple of members

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Speaker 1: of this group are Olympians and their Olympics is thirty

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Speaker 1: six do we go to the Nazi Olympics? Right, same

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Speaker 1: same question that we're revisiting in sixty eight, just with

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Speaker 1: different cast of characters, and they're all asked to resolve

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Speaker 1: this question of what is my what is the appropriate

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Speaker 1: path I ought to take in the world to express

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Speaker 1: my anger at the way my people are being treated.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that the idea that I'm most interested

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Speaker 1: in is the mistake we make is in assuming there's

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Speaker 1: only one path and there's multiple paths. And at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, you can we can look at

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Speaker 1: someone like Michael Jordan twenty years out and we can say,

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Speaker 1: did Michael actually do more for Black America by playing

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Speaker 1: the role he did than if he had been outspoken.

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Speaker 1: Not everyone has to be outspoken. If no one was outspoken,

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Speaker 1: if not a single black person of cultural authority was

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Speaker 1: saying anything in the nineties about anything to do with racism,

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Speaker 1: then I would say, Michael, you got a problem. But

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Speaker 1: there are people who were saying stuff, and Michael was saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try and make my case in a

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Speaker 1: different way. I'm going to confront whatever demons were faced

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Speaker 1: with as a people using my own strategy, which is

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Speaker 1: to demonstrate that a black man can be the hardest

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Speaker 1: working and smartest man on the basketball court. Malcolm, that's

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Speaker 1: really interesting this set of choices and using Michael Jordan

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Speaker 1: as a kind of example. We know from legacy of

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Speaker 1: speed that you have some ideas about this. So after

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Speaker 1: the break we want to hear more about these choices

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Speaker 1: and how they make a difference in the larger struggle

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Speaker 1: for racial justice. We'll be right back after the break.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to some of my best friends are today.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is Malcolm Gladwell. We are talking sports, politics,

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Speaker 1: activism and justice. And Malcolm, so you were just telling

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Speaker 1: us about Michael Jordan's choices to be the best and

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Speaker 1: the hardest working basketball player in history and that that

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Speaker 1: feels to you like also a contribution to some form

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Speaker 1: of politics. So talk to us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: some of what you learned in your work on legacy

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Speaker 1: of Speed, about the different choices that people have when

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Speaker 1: it comes to trying to make a difference. So we've

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Speaker 1: got we have three examples in a sixty eight Games

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Speaker 1: of how African Americans chose to chose to express their

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Speaker 1: anger at the way they were being cheated in the

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Speaker 1: way that you know black people around the world are

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Speaker 1: being treated. One approach is the approach that was taken

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Speaker 1: by people like Tommy Smith, which is will go and

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Speaker 1: we will make a public protest in front of the

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Speaker 1: entire world, so we're we're not going to turn our

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Speaker 1: back on the the institution of the Olympics as problematic

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Speaker 1: and troubled and racist and whatever as it is. We'll

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Speaker 1: go and make a stand when we're there. Second approach

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Speaker 1: is what Kreem Abdul Jabbar does. And remember Kreem doesn't

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Speaker 1: go to Kream would have won a gold medal betting

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Speaker 1: Boycott's he stays home, right. The third approach is to

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Speaker 1: go and just to behave like everyone else. Michael Jordan's approach.

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Speaker 1: Michael Jordan, Right, those are your options, um and and

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Speaker 1: Malcolm you cite in in the Legacy of Speed. You

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Speaker 1: cite a source for this, a book that has sort

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Speaker 1: of presented these three three choices of opposition fame. It's

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Speaker 1: the It's the Um, the famous book by by the

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Speaker 1: economist Alberto Hirshman, one of my one of my favorite,

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Speaker 1: not just mine, many people's favorite thinker of the twentieth centuries.

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Speaker 1: He writes this brilliant book called Exit, Voice and Loyalty,

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Speaker 1: which is really about this question. You have options. These

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Speaker 1: are the three options that are available to you. You You

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Speaker 1: can go along with it. You can you can leave.

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Speaker 1: You can you can if you don't like your public schools,

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Speaker 1: you can give up and homeschool your kid or moved

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Speaker 1: to the suburbs. You can go to school board meetings

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Speaker 1: and speak up and say I'm angry. Or you can

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Speaker 1: just keep your mouth shut and hope things get better.

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Speaker 1: Those are your choices, right, And there's a case to

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Speaker 1: be made for all three choices. At various point Alberto

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Speaker 1: Hirshman happens to like what he calls Voice. He thinks

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Speaker 1: that going to the Olympics and speaking up is the

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Speaker 1: right move. But he's not dismissive. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: sit here and tell you that krime Abdul Jabbar made

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Speaker 1: the wrong decision sixty eight that was consistent with who

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Speaker 1: he is. He's someone who's deeply thoughtful and principled, and

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Speaker 1: he personally could not square his participation in those games

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Speaker 1: with his beliefs. And although although Malcolm you you, you

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Speaker 1: kind of do make the case against it, in a

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Speaker 1: way in Legacy of Speed, you remind us that none

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Speaker 1: of us remember that he boycotted the sixty eight Olympics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't. It wasn't lasting. It didn't make change

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Speaker 1: for him. Like as an individual it made sense, but

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Speaker 1: in terms of affecting change right like it's but I

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Speaker 1: don't think who I guess I would say to critique

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Speaker 1: my own position in it, I've now I've rethought this. Actually,

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Speaker 1: since Speed did Legacy of Speed interressing in my new book,

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Speaker 1: I'm much more sympathetic to those who make different choices

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Speaker 1: than speaking up. The cream had gone to sixty eight

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Speaker 1: and spent the rest of his life second guessing his decision,

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Speaker 1: then I think that would have been a tragedy. It's

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Speaker 1: not who he is, right, like, everyone has to be free.

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Speaker 1: One of the things, one of the tragic things of

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Speaker 1: the way we judge the angry and the dispossessed is

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Speaker 1: not only do we judge them for being at the bottom,

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Speaker 1: we also judge them for the ways in which they

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Speaker 1: try to come up from the bottom. And we create

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Speaker 1: this hierarchy of options for them, and we say, the

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Speaker 1: noblest thing for the disadvantage to do is to speak

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Speaker 1: out bravely, right, and the least noble is for them

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Speaker 1: to meekly go along, to be a kind of Uncle Tom.

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Speaker 1: And my point is that that's just as unfair as

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Speaker 1: the old system. You can't judge people for how they

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Speaker 1: choose to respond to everyone is. As long as someone

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Speaker 1: is thoughtful about the decision they're trying to make, I

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Speaker 1: am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is a really interesting dilemma,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad we're talking through it, because admittedly I'm

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Speaker 1: taken with Bill Roden's provocative thesis in the book he

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Speaker 1: wrote several years ago called forty Million Dollars Slave, which

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Speaker 1: essentially tells the history of the commodification of black talent

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Speaker 1: in sports that black people for most of the history

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Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, and competitive professional sports have been

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Speaker 1: used for the purposes of creating wealth on behalf of

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Speaker 1: the owners of these sports teams in every field of

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Speaker 1: sports endeavor, and that at a certain point, their ability

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Speaker 1: to use sports, say Jackie Robinson, to do something that

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Speaker 1: transforms society, is stymied in part because the financial rewards

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Speaker 1: shutting up and dribbling becomes so great that people no

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Speaker 1: longer can attach any kind of social mission to their

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Speaker 1: sports athleticism, and he sees this as a loss despite

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Speaker 1: what I think your bigger point is that some people

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Speaker 1: are built to do a certain kind of thing well,

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Speaker 1: even within a socially charged context. Michael Jordan may never

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Speaker 1: actually have been the right person to be a spokesperson.

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Speaker 1: I think that's probably right, and that Korean Abdul Jabbar

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Speaker 1: found his voice outside of the arena eventually, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe he needed to do his best there to create

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Speaker 1: that space. I'm okay with that. But I do think

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Speaker 1: that this other context is real and meaningful, and that

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Speaker 1: money matters in terms of the choices at athletes today

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Speaker 1: make about their their politics. Please, I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go back to that comment and made

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Speaker 1: about Michael Jordan setting a standard for being the hardest

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Speaker 1: working and smartest guy in the court. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's a trivial accomplishment. And I say this because

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Speaker 1: I read I forgot where I read it. I was

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Speaker 1: reading through some academic journals and I came across the study,

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Speaker 1: brilliant study in which they simply they went through, I

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Speaker 1: mean thousands of hours of NCAA tournament basketball announcing footage

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Speaker 1: from announcers talking and just tried to just did that thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, and this has been done before. Were they saying,

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about a black player's accomplishment, what are

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Speaker 1: the adjectives we use? And when we're talking about a

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Speaker 1: white player, And it's like, and it's smart for a

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Speaker 1: white player, it's smart for a white player, and it's

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Speaker 1: athletic and it's emotional for the black player. And I

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Speaker 1: looked at that and I say, you know what, we

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Speaker 1: have such a long way to go even now, and

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Speaker 1: we fool ourselves that we're in this luxurious position now

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Speaker 1: where our athletes can we can ask our athletes to

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Speaker 1: debate the fine points of legislation before the Congress, and

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Speaker 1: I would say, you know what, in most cases, that

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Speaker 1: is way fucking premature, Like there is an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of room for someone like Jordan coming along and proving

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people who are that who are

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Speaker 1: carrying around some unexamined prejudices in their heart about what

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Speaker 1: black people can or can't do, and proving to them that,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I am both the most physically talented

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Speaker 1: person on the floor, but also the hardest working and

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Speaker 1: also the smartest. And I wonder if that contribution isn't

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Speaker 1: in retrospect incalculable. I'm gonna put another spin on that study,

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Speaker 1: which and thinking about it, which in another read of

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Speaker 1: that is that sports is inherently political, right, you can

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Speaker 1: say that it's it is like, you know, this pure

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Speaker 1: just you know, space where people compete and it's outside

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Speaker 1: the realm of politics and sociology and all these other

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Speaker 1: things that if we're even when we're you know, you

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Speaker 1: just describe the even even the lens that people through

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Speaker 1: see sports, it's racialized, it's politicized. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot about the Olympic Games and sort of

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Speaker 1: the idealization of human achievement. You know, excellence and to

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Speaker 1: think about that kind of excellence without thinking about all

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Speaker 1: of our failings and hypocrisy, like they go hand in hand,

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Speaker 1: right or or I think about baseball, I sort of

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Speaker 1: did writing about baseball earlier in my career and thinking

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Speaker 1: about a kind of the gauzy way that that baseball

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Speaker 1: is imagined as sort of Americana and you could only

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Speaker 1: sort of see it as this kind of uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: pre racialized past, like a lot of baseball literature to

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Speaker 1: sort of escape racism, imagine something like, you know, like

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Speaker 1: shoeless Joe needs to imagine nineteen nineteen in some corn

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Speaker 1: fields when it's not racialized. It's so wrapped up in

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Speaker 1: some idea of American exceptionalism and some dreamy idea of

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Speaker 1: America that not, you know, it's it contains all of

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Speaker 1: its hypocrisies. It's like you have to sort of start

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Speaker 1: digging in there. What's absent, what has to be excluded? Ye,

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Speaker 1: you can't see the two without without you know, without

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Speaker 1: grappling with these with these issues, I mean, and the

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Speaker 1: whole thing is heightened by the fact that thirty years ago,

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Speaker 1: sports was just one of a number of different areas

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Speaker 1: in which we conducted a national conversation. Now it is

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Speaker 1: the only area that's interesting. It's the only mass it's

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Speaker 1: the only mass media phenomenon left is that in politics,

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Speaker 1: and politics is like, that's impossible. The only way we

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Speaker 1: can have honest conversations. It strikes me about these things

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Speaker 1: is basically it's basketball and it's football. So it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: these things are these things are freighted. Now, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a really interesting transition to just talking about contemporary moment

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Speaker 1: and particularly the NFL U and I have two things

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Speaker 1: I want to bring up here. One is that just

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Speaker 1: your point about the weight of racist stereotypes that still

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Speaker 1: animate sports commentary in live sports today. We all just

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Speaker 1: witness how the contest between the Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Jalen

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Speaker 1: Hurts and Patrick Mahomes, the first two black quarterbacks to

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Speaker 1: square off in the NFL, is itself part of this

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Speaker 1: historical context that the role of the quarterback. We talked

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Speaker 1: a lot about Brady Peyton Manny, the role of the

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Speaker 1: quarterback has always been the brains of the team. And

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Speaker 1: here for the first time in history, not because we

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Speaker 1: watched it, but because we talked about it, because it

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Speaker 1: was part of the story because the media kept coming

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Speaker 1: back to it. What does it mean that we now

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Speaker 1: have these two outstanding black quarterbacks in the Super Bowl? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's uh, you know so the question,

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Speaker 1: the question is, was that another kind of watershed when

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Speaker 1: it's to your point. It's to your point about that

427
00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 1: media now in the study that right, if we were

428
00:25:57,476 --> 00:25:59,636
Speaker 1: some if we were in some other version of America

429
00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:04,396
Speaker 1: in the future, this would not have been a media frame. Yeah,

430
00:26:04,916 --> 00:26:07,076
Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think but perhaps the most

431
00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:09,516
Speaker 1: famous black quarterback which I think we should talk about

432
00:26:09,676 --> 00:26:13,836
Speaker 1: is Colin Kaepernick in light of more recent times around

433
00:26:13,916 --> 00:26:17,356
Speaker 1: this question of sports and activism and one of the

434
00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:19,876
Speaker 1: things that's crazy about Colin Kaepernick. I'm pretty sure this

435
00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:23,916
Speaker 1: is true that Harry Edwards, who advises the guys in

436
00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:27,756
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, also advises Colin Kaepernick. He's advising Colin

437
00:26:27,836 --> 00:26:33,156
Speaker 1: Kaepernick in twenty sixteen. Yeah. Like it's both inspiring and

438
00:26:33,196 --> 00:26:35,756
Speaker 1: also like, man, is there only one like guy like this?

439
00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:39,116
Speaker 1: It's like, is there really that little like active? Going

440
00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:41,956
Speaker 1: back to the same guy, Yeah, Yeah, he's the Yoda

441
00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:46,396
Speaker 1: of professional sports. Well he's a Bay Area guy, so yeah,

442
00:26:46,556 --> 00:26:49,436
Speaker 1: a lot of that is about that. Um that, well,

443
00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:51,956
Speaker 1: there's several you know, there's a friend of mine. I'm

444
00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:54,596
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna kind of tacitly name drop. I have

445
00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:58,596
Speaker 1: a very fancy finance friend who went to a The

446
00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:00,876
Speaker 1: height of that Bernie made off right, No, no, no, no, no.

447
00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:03,796
Speaker 1: The height of all this was that some meeting with

448
00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:08,156
Speaker 1: a number of NFL owners and my friend is not

449
00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:12,196
Speaker 1: a football fan, not even know the slightest thing. She's

450
00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:14,316
Speaker 1: not even from this country. She comes back to me

451
00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:19,636
Speaker 1: and she says, who is this guy Kaepernick keeper something? Oh,

452
00:27:19,676 --> 00:27:22,156
Speaker 1: they were talking about him at this this It was

453
00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:26,396
Speaker 1: like a you know, a little reception um and she

454
00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:29,196
Speaker 1: said the things they were the kind of she came

455
00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:33,236
Speaker 1: back completely appalled by the kind of race racist language

456
00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:35,196
Speaker 1: being used to describe this person who she'd never heard of.

457
00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:39,236
Speaker 1: She didn't know a different which I kind of always

458
00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:44,196
Speaker 1: knew that NFL owners were bad in that sense, but

459
00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:47,676
Speaker 1: that was like, Okay, this is a completely un This

460
00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:51,956
Speaker 1: is a completely objective observer who's dropped into a candid

461
00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:54,476
Speaker 1: situation with a bunch of owners and they are they

462
00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:58,596
Speaker 1: are talking shit about college years after. The whole thing

463
00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:02,476
Speaker 1: is not two years ago. This is not twenty seventeen,

464
00:28:03,276 --> 00:28:05,756
Speaker 1: two years ago, and they can't you know, they hate

465
00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:08,236
Speaker 1: this guy, which I had not. I have to say

466
00:28:08,276 --> 00:28:13,036
Speaker 1: I was a little surprise. I didn't realize the extent

467
00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:16,716
Speaker 1: to which there was a continuing animus towards him. And

468
00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:20,396
Speaker 1: just to remind listeners that in twenty sixteen, in the

469
00:28:20,436 --> 00:28:24,036
Speaker 1: wake of several police shootings of black men, Colin Kaepernick

470
00:28:24,076 --> 00:28:26,316
Speaker 1: decides during the playing of the national anthem during a

471
00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:29,476
Speaker 1: game to nil, to not stand. And this is sort

472
00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:33,076
Speaker 1: of triggers this this animus that you're describing. Yeah, and

473
00:28:33,116 --> 00:28:35,356
Speaker 1: by the way, I mean, there's so many things that

474
00:28:35,396 --> 00:28:40,196
Speaker 1: arens about the Colin kaepernthick in retrospect, it's not inherently

475
00:28:40,236 --> 00:28:45,236
Speaker 1: disrespectful to the national anthem. To kneel is a respectful position.

476
00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,316
Speaker 1: You're not on your cell phone, You're not like, you're

477
00:28:48,356 --> 00:28:52,676
Speaker 1: not listening to music, You're like so like he's respecting

478
00:28:52,676 --> 00:28:55,076
Speaker 1: the moment so much that he's using it to make

479
00:28:55,116 --> 00:28:57,236
Speaker 1: what he believes to be an even more important statement.

480
00:28:57,436 --> 00:29:00,196
Speaker 1: You know, I you speaking of a friend who had

481
00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:03,476
Speaker 1: this experience recently with the racism of the NFL owners

482
00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:07,596
Speaker 1: towards Kaepernick. In twenty seventeen, one of my students teaching

483
00:29:07,596 --> 00:29:09,676
Speaker 1: at the Kennedy School. I have a lot of really

484
00:29:10,356 --> 00:29:14,236
Speaker 1: influential students, and one of them was working for an

485
00:29:14,236 --> 00:29:18,796
Speaker 1: owner and therefore made a recommendation that they talk to me.

486
00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:21,756
Speaker 1: They're like, you know, my professor is a race whisperer.

487
00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:23,916
Speaker 1: Maybe you guys can learn something from him. You're gonna

488
00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:28,036
Speaker 1: be like, like, Harry, you're a juniors. That's this is

489
00:29:28,076 --> 00:29:30,196
Speaker 1: my coming out moment. That's what I am revealing here.

490
00:29:30,236 --> 00:29:33,676
Speaker 1: So you want to let you know that Harriet Edwards

491
00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:35,716
Speaker 1: is not the only game in town anymore. So I

492
00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:40,036
Speaker 1: meet with about four people, all of them African American men,

493
00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:43,676
Speaker 1: and some are corporate, some are union, but all of

494
00:29:43,716 --> 00:29:47,076
Speaker 1: them are earnest and thoughtful. And what I tell them

495
00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:52,076
Speaker 1: is essentially, how absurd is it that we wrap American

496
00:29:52,236 --> 00:29:56,436
Speaker 1: patriotism and militarism into sports athletic contests in the first place,

497
00:29:56,996 --> 00:30:00,916
Speaker 1: And secondarily, um, what does it mean for an employer

498
00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:04,956
Speaker 1: to require this genuflection to American patriotism as a condition

499
00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:09,396
Speaker 1: of work? And that the best option going fall word

500
00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:12,836
Speaker 1: is to either remind everyone that it is not a

501
00:30:12,916 --> 00:30:17,156
Speaker 1: requirement to take a position that as an employer, while

502
00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:19,396
Speaker 1: we have this tradition. It is not a condition of

503
00:30:19,396 --> 00:30:22,916
Speaker 1: your employment or to stop it all together, because, as

504
00:30:22,916 --> 00:30:24,836
Speaker 1: I said to them, I would never expect to go

505
00:30:24,916 --> 00:30:28,076
Speaker 1: to my workplace, whether it's Harvard or some other university

506
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:31,076
Speaker 1: or college, and as a matter of daily ritual, I

507
00:30:31,196 --> 00:30:34,876
Speaker 1: have to sing the national anthem. I mean, it's actually

508
00:30:34,956 --> 00:30:38,876
Speaker 1: absurd when you think about it. Of course, it didn't

509
00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:41,916
Speaker 1: actually happen that way. But what did happen was, for

510
00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:45,156
Speaker 1: a time, as we all know, there was some general

511
00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:48,116
Speaker 1: acceptance that some players would kneel, some players wouldn't kneel,

512
00:30:48,156 --> 00:30:52,276
Speaker 1: and they sort of ride out the storm. Yeah, all right,

513
00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:54,676
Speaker 1: we're going to take a break and we'll be back

514
00:30:54,836 --> 00:31:10,356
Speaker 1: with more from Malcolm Gladwell, here's what I'd love to

515
00:31:10,396 --> 00:31:14,036
Speaker 1: do with you, you guys, which is, if you're Colin

516
00:31:14,156 --> 00:31:17,876
Speaker 1: Kaepernick and you're doing it again, do you do it differently?

517
00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:23,276
Speaker 1: I'm wondering whether did he And I don't remember enough

518
00:31:23,316 --> 00:31:26,236
Speaker 1: of the specifics of the case, but I'm wondering whether

519
00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:30,876
Speaker 1: is there a way he could have explained himself before

520
00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:34,436
Speaker 1: he took any action that would have made his protest

521
00:31:34,836 --> 00:31:41,396
Speaker 1: more meaningful and more widely and less divisive. Yeah? Is he? Yeah? Yeah?

522
00:31:41,436 --> 00:31:47,476
Speaker 1: You go ahead, No, no, no, and no, because well,

523
00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:51,036
Speaker 1: well it's not it's not just my own politics. Um. Look,

524
00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:54,676
Speaker 1: it was the early days of the Trump administration, and

525
00:31:54,716 --> 00:32:01,036
Speaker 1: so everything we know now means that whatever we thought

526
00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:07,796
Speaker 1: was the limits of white supremacist rhetoric, white nationalist organizing

527
00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:12,316
Speaker 1: only matta ostasized since that moment. And at the end

528
00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:15,036
Speaker 1: of the day, you know, what Trump was doing was

529
00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:19,836
Speaker 1: like fire that bastard and stoking up the political base

530
00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:24,636
Speaker 1: was really just speaking to millions of NFL white fans,

531
00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:29,516
Speaker 1: both in the stadium and on television, who were feeling

532
00:32:29,676 --> 00:32:35,236
Speaker 1: even more powerful and legitimate in their discomfort at best

533
00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:39,036
Speaker 1: and hatred at worst towards Kaepernick. So I'm not sure

534
00:32:39,076 --> 00:32:43,916
Speaker 1: there was any explanation that was a substantive, thoughtful, rich, factual,

535
00:32:43,996 --> 00:32:48,276
Speaker 1: logical critique of policing that would have changed the outcome. Okay,

536
00:32:48,356 --> 00:32:50,676
Speaker 1: second question for you, Khalil, since you're on a roller,

537
00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:58,156
Speaker 1: does it make a difference if Kaepernick's really good? Yes,

538
00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:00,636
Speaker 1: I do think it makes a difference. I think it

539
00:33:00,716 --> 00:33:04,116
Speaker 1: makes a difference later, not initially, I think he would

540
00:33:04,156 --> 00:33:10,516
Speaker 1: have suffered the stigma of being this radical, bad for

541
00:33:11,116 --> 00:33:13,836
Speaker 1: the team's image, bad for the politics of sports and

542
00:33:14,396 --> 00:33:16,636
Speaker 1: White America. But I think he would have gotten picked

543
00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,916
Speaker 1: up shortly after the dust settle, maybe a year, maybe

544
00:33:19,996 --> 00:33:22,956
Speaker 1: two years. But if he was considered one of the

545
00:33:22,996 --> 00:33:25,836
Speaker 1: top five quarterbacks in the NFL, I think he would

546
00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:28,236
Speaker 1: have gotten a job. So if Patrick Mahomes takes a

547
00:33:28,356 --> 00:33:34,876
Speaker 1: knee in twenty twenty three, what happens? Hmm? This is

548
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:38,276
Speaker 1: funny because first of all, he works for a team

549
00:33:38,316 --> 00:33:45,116
Speaker 1: that does the racist, fucking tomahawk chalk chalk, So so

550
00:33:46,236 --> 00:33:48,476
Speaker 1: I think he might actually not make it out of

551
00:33:48,516 --> 00:33:51,716
Speaker 1: the stadium alive. I mean, to be consistent with his

552
00:33:51,796 --> 00:33:55,716
Speaker 1: own with his own team and stadiums politics. Uh, that's

553
00:33:55,716 --> 00:33:59,676
Speaker 1: a good question. I mean, the NFL has already affirmed right,

554
00:33:59,716 --> 00:34:06,516
Speaker 1: so that Roger Goodell, whether whether truthfully or just performatively,

555
00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:11,196
Speaker 1: said Colin Kaepernick was right. We should have backed him

556
00:34:11,276 --> 00:34:14,076
Speaker 1: up on this. So does that make a difference in

557
00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:16,956
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three amongst other owners and the politics today,

558
00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:21,156
Speaker 1: It's hard to say. You know, you know, Malcolm mcclear.

559
00:34:21,316 --> 00:34:24,116
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this in terms of Drew Brees,

560
00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:27,476
Speaker 1: the quarterback for the New Orleans Saints who recently retired,

561
00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:29,556
Speaker 1: because he was in the news because he spoke at

562
00:34:29,596 --> 00:34:34,876
Speaker 1: the Republican Congressional like gathering, and you know, thinking about

563
00:34:34,916 --> 00:34:38,516
Speaker 1: like one man, I sort of always liked Drew Brees,

564
00:34:38,596 --> 00:34:40,356
Speaker 1: you know, just as an idea. And if I had

565
00:34:40,396 --> 00:34:42,916
Speaker 1: known this about him, you know, how would I have

566
00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:44,676
Speaker 1: felt differently? Because I knew we were going to have

567
00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:48,396
Speaker 1: this talk about athletes and politics and making a choice

568
00:34:48,436 --> 00:34:50,356
Speaker 1: as an athlete of coming out for something is going

569
00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:52,396
Speaker 1: to alienate a lot of people no matter what, no

570
00:34:52,396 --> 00:34:55,476
Speaker 1: matter which side you come out on. So his his

571
00:34:55,516 --> 00:34:58,676
Speaker 1: activism is actually on the conservative side. And then I

572
00:34:58,756 --> 00:35:04,156
Speaker 1: was reminded that he spoke out after Colin Kaepernick took

573
00:35:04,156 --> 00:35:07,236
Speaker 1: a knee, and initially he came out and said, you know,

574
00:35:07,476 --> 00:35:09,876
Speaker 1: you have to respect the flag. I have parents who

575
00:35:09,876 --> 00:35:12,556
Speaker 1: fought in grandparents who fought in World War Two. And

576
00:35:12,596 --> 00:35:15,636
Speaker 1: he got all this backlash from fellow from his teammates,

577
00:35:16,036 --> 00:35:18,316
Speaker 1: and he came back out again and said, listen, I

578
00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:21,876
Speaker 1: spoke to my teammates and they corrected me. You know,

579
00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:24,676
Speaker 1: they kind of schooled me. I learned something that idea

580
00:35:24,716 --> 00:35:28,396
Speaker 1: that a community, you imagine a team of people talking

581
00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:31,276
Speaker 1: of different races, and that they're they're kind of educating

582
00:35:31,276 --> 00:35:33,276
Speaker 1: one another as a kind of. I mean, this is

583
00:35:33,316 --> 00:35:36,356
Speaker 1: where sports is the metaphor for society. You think about

584
00:35:36,356 --> 00:35:38,676
Speaker 1: that as society where like people can make change in

585
00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:43,436
Speaker 1: that way. I like that part of it. Yeah. So

586
00:35:44,276 --> 00:35:50,356
Speaker 1: were the Christian right historically stayed out of politics, right,

587
00:35:50,516 --> 00:35:54,796
Speaker 1: They didn't touch it, and we this was something that

588
00:35:54,836 --> 00:35:58,836
Speaker 1: in retrospect lots and lots and lots of progressive types lauded.

589
00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:01,556
Speaker 1: We thought that was good. And then they got super

590
00:36:01,596 --> 00:36:05,196
Speaker 1: involved in politics, and there was all manner of hand

591
00:36:05,276 --> 00:36:08,596
Speaker 1: ringing and such from liberals who said, what are they

592
00:36:08,636 --> 00:36:12,916
Speaker 1: doing to their religious purpose? They're calling their institutions their

593
00:36:13,036 --> 00:36:19,996
Speaker 1: legitimacy by mixing God with with with Mammon. And Um,

594
00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:24,036
Speaker 1: I'm wondering. So if I was going to play um

595
00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:28,236
Speaker 1: devil's advocate here, Um, why wouldn't we think the same

596
00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:31,956
Speaker 1: way about sports? What is wrong with the assumption that

597
00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:37,396
Speaker 1: something is lost when someone takes sports and mixes it

598
00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:42,716
Speaker 1: with contemporary political issues? This is the slavery avery argument argument? Right,

599
00:36:43,396 --> 00:36:46,076
Speaker 1: Slavery Area is the head of the Olympic committee in

600
00:36:46,076 --> 00:36:49,276
Speaker 1: sixty A. Right, who's American? Who's so racist that he

601
00:36:49,276 --> 00:36:53,956
Speaker 1: gets the nicknames slavery? Slavery? Avery? Argumentum? Although I think

602
00:36:53,996 --> 00:36:56,236
Speaker 1: that there's a there's a way of doing this with

603
00:36:57,756 --> 00:37:03,916
Speaker 1: expressing it with more nuance, which is um. So let

604
00:37:03,916 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 1: me go back to this book I'm writing. One of

605
00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,676
Speaker 1: the things I'm really interested in why Tom Bradley fascinates

606
00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:11,876
Speaker 1: me is that Tom Bradley is someone who grows up

607
00:37:11,876 --> 00:37:16,996
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirties Los Angeles with a grievance and essentially

608
00:37:17,036 --> 00:37:22,316
Speaker 1: waits fifty years to express his grievance. Super interesting. He

609
00:37:22,396 --> 00:37:25,676
Speaker 1: basically hides it inside and says, Okay, I could I

610
00:37:25,716 --> 00:37:27,836
Speaker 1: could stand up and I could make a big fuss

611
00:37:27,836 --> 00:37:32,076
Speaker 1: about this in nineteen forty four in on Central Avenue.

612
00:37:32,356 --> 00:37:34,916
Speaker 1: But I'm never going to be elected mayor of Los

613
00:37:34,916 --> 00:37:36,556
Speaker 1: Angeles if I'm doing that. I'm never even going to

614
00:37:36,636 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 1: get out of Central Avenue if I'm doing that. So

615
00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:40,636
Speaker 1: what I'm going to do is I'm going to hide

616
00:37:40,676 --> 00:37:42,756
Speaker 1: it inside, and I'm going to wait and wait and

617
00:37:42,756 --> 00:37:44,276
Speaker 1: wait and wait and wait and wait and wait until

618
00:37:44,276 --> 00:37:46,076
Speaker 1: I think it's appropriate to speak up. Now, he turns out,

619
00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:51,356
Speaker 1: he waits until Rodney King to say anything. But and

620
00:37:51,596 --> 00:37:54,396
Speaker 1: what's the specific grievance that he says? Remind us his

621
00:37:54,516 --> 00:37:58,596
Speaker 1: grievances with the LAPD okay, because he becomes a police officer, remember,

622
00:37:58,716 --> 00:38:00,796
Speaker 1: and spends the first half of his career as a

623
00:38:00,796 --> 00:38:05,756
Speaker 1: police officer. And I, you know, a lot of what

624
00:38:05,796 --> 00:38:09,316
Speaker 1: we're doing is we're asking athletes. The issue is not

625
00:38:09,316 --> 00:38:14,796
Speaker 1: whether athletes or people in positions of cultural prominence use

626
00:38:14,996 --> 00:38:19,156
Speaker 1: that platform in one way where or another for the

627
00:38:19,236 --> 00:38:21,916
Speaker 1: good of their people or for society. I think everyone

628
00:38:22,156 --> 00:38:24,756
Speaker 1: we're all in agreement they should do that. The issue

629
00:38:24,836 --> 00:38:26,756
Speaker 1: is when should they do it and how should they

630
00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,676
Speaker 1: do it? And I here's another of my little worries.

631
00:38:29,956 --> 00:38:32,716
Speaker 1: One of my little worries is that we're way too

632
00:38:32,756 --> 00:38:37,316
Speaker 1: focused on people speaking out immediately and not respectful enough

633
00:38:37,636 --> 00:38:40,756
Speaker 1: of someone who might be playing the long game. The

634
00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:44,356
Speaker 1: one thing we let people in positions of privilege do

635
00:38:44,716 --> 00:38:47,236
Speaker 1: is play the long game. The white guys get to

636
00:38:47,236 --> 00:38:50,476
Speaker 1: play the long game, right, They play the multigenerational game.

637
00:38:50,516 --> 00:38:53,356
Speaker 1: And everybody's fine with that. Black guy stands up and

638
00:38:53,356 --> 00:38:56,716
Speaker 1: wants to play a multigenerational game, and everyone's like, oh,

639
00:38:56,756 --> 00:38:59,516
Speaker 1: you've betrayed your people. Why have you said something? And

640
00:38:59,596 --> 00:39:04,036
Speaker 1: you're twenty three years old, Like bullshit. Find me. Find

641
00:39:04,036 --> 00:39:07,156
Speaker 1: me a privileged white person who is expected to speak

642
00:39:07,196 --> 00:39:09,956
Speaker 1: out in a sophisticated political manner the age of twenty three.

643
00:39:10,036 --> 00:39:13,636
Speaker 1: It does not exist. What I love about this, Malcolm

644
00:39:13,796 --> 00:39:16,196
Speaker 1: is like my my love of mj of Michael Jordan.

645
00:39:16,516 --> 00:39:19,836
Speaker 1: He's about to come out. He's gonna sell, He's gonna

646
00:39:19,836 --> 00:39:23,396
Speaker 1: sell the Charlotte UH team and he is he's a radical.

647
00:39:23,756 --> 00:39:26,556
Speaker 1: Take his two billion and give it to an HBCU

648
00:39:26,716 --> 00:39:30,836
Speaker 1: and it's a new Michael society. But two quick things.

649
00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:32,836
Speaker 1: One Malcolm too, you ask your a question about the

650
00:39:32,916 --> 00:39:36,196
Speaker 1: Christian right. Um, I actually reject the premise of the question. Um,

651
00:39:36,276 --> 00:39:41,596
Speaker 1: religion has always sad. Yeah, yeah, and so so you know,

652
00:39:41,716 --> 00:39:44,556
Speaker 1: the social Gospel tradition obviously is from the left position.

653
00:39:44,596 --> 00:39:47,516
Speaker 1: But there's never not been a time when religious leaders

654
00:39:47,556 --> 00:39:49,636
Speaker 1: didn't care about politics and speak to it as such.

655
00:39:49,796 --> 00:39:53,476
Speaker 1: The other thing is, you've now given me so much hope,

656
00:39:54,116 --> 00:39:59,836
Speaker 1: so much anticipation, such a strong belief now that Sasha

657
00:39:59,916 --> 00:40:03,596
Speaker 1: and Malia Obama are the generational change that we that

658
00:40:03,676 --> 00:40:06,196
Speaker 1: we want to see. That the yes we can of

659
00:40:06,276 --> 00:40:09,596
Speaker 1: Barack crou saying Obama of keeping that little angry black man,

660
00:40:10,036 --> 00:40:14,596
Speaker 1: that that that Lucius alternate ego inside, keeping that angry

661
00:40:14,636 --> 00:40:16,796
Speaker 1: black man inside all this time, even through all the

662
00:40:16,836 --> 00:40:19,396
Speaker 1: shit of Donald Trump and the madness of this country,

663
00:40:19,476 --> 00:40:22,756
Speaker 1: it's still inside. And what it's really about is his

664
00:40:22,836 --> 00:40:30,116
Speaker 1: two daughters. They are multi generational. This reminds me of something.

665
00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:32,196
Speaker 1: I want to come back to Harp on this point

666
00:40:32,196 --> 00:40:35,356
Speaker 1: because I think it's a really important one. Years ago,

667
00:40:35,396 --> 00:40:37,116
Speaker 1: when I was doing my book Outliers, I had this

668
00:40:37,356 --> 00:40:41,396
Speaker 1: fascinating conversation with someone who had studied the rise of

669
00:40:41,556 --> 00:40:44,396
Speaker 1: Jewish lawyers, and he made this really interesting argument. He

670
00:40:44,436 --> 00:40:46,356
Speaker 1: was like, and it's the argument I make in the book,

671
00:40:46,356 --> 00:40:50,916
Speaker 1: which is that was a three generation phenomenon. The immigrants

672
00:40:50,956 --> 00:40:54,156
Speaker 1: came and worked in the garment industry, their kids became

673
00:40:54,316 --> 00:40:56,796
Speaker 1: merchants of one kind another, and it was their kids

674
00:40:57,476 --> 00:41:02,076
Speaker 1: who went to law school. So it was three generations

675
00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:05,396
Speaker 1: to go to a public city college kind of law school.

676
00:41:05,476 --> 00:41:08,636
Speaker 1: Not it was four generations to go to the ivating schools.

677
00:41:09,116 --> 00:41:11,956
Speaker 1: And his he was making his argument about about black people,

678
00:41:11,996 --> 00:41:15,476
Speaker 1: and he was saying, the mistake we make is when

679
00:41:15,476 --> 00:41:18,916
Speaker 1: we judge the success of our inventions is we forget

680
00:41:18,996 --> 00:41:22,316
Speaker 1: that even even the Jewish community in America was a

681
00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:26,716
Speaker 1: four generation phenomenon to get to the upper uh ranks

682
00:41:26,716 --> 00:41:30,916
Speaker 1: of the of the of and this is white people, right.

683
00:41:31,276 --> 00:41:34,596
Speaker 1: I mean, at a time when there actually were highly

684
00:41:34,596 --> 00:41:38,156
Speaker 1: functional public institutions helping lower middle class white people get ahead.

685
00:41:38,276 --> 00:41:40,636
Speaker 1: So it's like the deck was stacked in favor of

686
00:41:40,676 --> 00:41:43,516
Speaker 1: that group, and it was still four generations. And so

687
00:41:43,596 --> 00:41:45,436
Speaker 1: let me give you another example. So I look at

688
00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:48,636
Speaker 1: someone like Steph Curry and I see, uh, well, Steph

689
00:41:48,756 --> 00:41:51,636
Speaker 1: is it is it We're at least we're I don't

690
00:41:51,676 --> 00:41:54,756
Speaker 1: know about his grandfather, but at least his father del

691
00:41:54,956 --> 00:41:57,276
Speaker 1: is like a guy who made a fortune in the

692
00:41:57,356 --> 00:42:00,196
Speaker 1: National Basketball League, who had every So Steph grows up

693
00:42:00,676 --> 00:42:03,036
Speaker 1: with every advantage in the world. And what we're now

694
00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:06,956
Speaker 1: seeing from him, that level of maturity and grace and

695
00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:10,876
Speaker 1: even at a very young age, is something that has

696
00:42:11,516 --> 00:42:15,676
Speaker 1: that has got decades of roots to it, right. And

697
00:42:15,756 --> 00:42:19,116
Speaker 1: maybe it's Steph's kids who are the ones who run

698
00:42:19,156 --> 00:42:21,236
Speaker 1: for public office and who make a difference, who have

699
00:42:21,316 --> 00:42:25,036
Speaker 1: the benefit of two generations of And that's why it's

700
00:42:25,036 --> 00:42:28,156
Speaker 1: again another reason why and do that thing you just

701
00:42:28,236 --> 00:42:33,316
Speaker 1: mentioned about MJ is real? Why do we care? Why

702
00:42:33,356 --> 00:42:36,276
Speaker 1: should MJ have to speak up at twenty five? I mean,

703
00:42:36,316 --> 00:42:40,996
Speaker 1: I'll just say there is room though for black conservatism.

704
00:42:41,036 --> 00:42:48,876
Speaker 1: There is room for individual notions of capitalistic success, meaning

705
00:42:48,956 --> 00:42:52,916
Speaker 1: that one way to interpret some of this behavior is

706
00:42:52,956 --> 00:42:57,596
Speaker 1: that I don't have a social obligation. My individual success

707
00:42:57,076 --> 00:43:01,116
Speaker 1: is a cruce to me and me alone. And maybe

708
00:43:01,156 --> 00:43:03,236
Speaker 1: at best I do like the white guys do, which

709
00:43:03,316 --> 00:43:05,076
Speaker 1: is to say, I'm going to give away a little money.

710
00:43:05,516 --> 00:43:08,596
Speaker 1: It's going to be good for my reputation, but everyone

711
00:43:08,636 --> 00:43:11,316
Speaker 1: else has to work just as hard as I do. Yeah,

712
00:43:11,436 --> 00:43:14,716
Speaker 1: so I don't I don't want to overread Michael Jordan's

713
00:43:15,196 --> 00:43:18,996
Speaker 1: um choices here because the jury is still out. Yeah. Right,

714
00:43:18,996 --> 00:43:22,636
Speaker 1: I would add the phrase right the words right now.

715
00:43:23,076 --> 00:43:26,596
Speaker 1: I don't have a social obligation right now. Once you

716
00:43:26,636 --> 00:43:29,956
Speaker 1: add right now, then it changes the whole kind of

717
00:43:31,316 --> 00:43:36,836
Speaker 1: m valence of the of his choice. Yeah, Hey, Malcolm,

718
00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:38,716
Speaker 1: I want to I want to end with a kind

719
00:43:38,756 --> 00:43:41,956
Speaker 1: of playful social experiment and sort of pose a question

720
00:43:41,996 --> 00:43:44,956
Speaker 1: the way you were posing to us. And and so,

721
00:43:45,236 --> 00:43:48,556
Speaker 1: you know, even even the Colin Kaepernick energy and the

722
00:43:48,716 --> 00:43:51,596
Speaker 1: NBA after George Floyd, you know, sort of embracing Black

723
00:43:51,596 --> 00:43:55,036
Speaker 1: lives matter institutionally, which is a very different thing, maybe

724
00:43:55,076 --> 00:43:56,876
Speaker 1: a fifth choice, you know, or it was sort of

725
00:43:56,876 --> 00:44:00,196
Speaker 1: co opted by the institution but that that energy has

726
00:44:00,276 --> 00:44:02,636
Speaker 1: has sort of waned it's past, and so we're in

727
00:44:02,676 --> 00:44:04,756
Speaker 1: this moment right now, as you just said, like what's

728
00:44:04,756 --> 00:44:07,596
Speaker 1: going on right now? And let's imagine, like we're three

729
00:44:07,836 --> 00:44:11,076
Speaker 1: smartish guys, Um, if we could be a kind of

730
00:44:11,116 --> 00:44:15,436
Speaker 1: Harry Edwards to a professional athlete right now, who would

731
00:44:15,476 --> 00:44:19,236
Speaker 1: we pick what would be the protest thing we would

732
00:44:19,236 --> 00:44:23,676
Speaker 1: want them to do? And you know what cause and

733
00:44:24,036 --> 00:44:27,356
Speaker 1: why or wouldn't it be effective? Like can we each

734
00:44:27,356 --> 00:44:30,156
Speaker 1: sort of imagine one? And I could even start, you know,

735
00:44:30,196 --> 00:44:32,836
Speaker 1: since you guys are just posing this coming now. Okay,

736
00:44:33,276 --> 00:44:36,996
Speaker 1: So so mine mine is John Morant, and I've been

737
00:44:37,036 --> 00:44:39,796
Speaker 1: really fascinated by by sort of you know, he was

738
00:44:39,836 --> 00:44:43,196
Speaker 1: suspended by the NBA because he flashed a gun, and

739
00:44:43,756 --> 00:44:47,316
Speaker 1: you know, rather than rather than sort of criminalizing him,

740
00:44:47,516 --> 00:44:50,756
Speaker 1: it was sort of addressed as kind of um, a

741
00:44:50,836 --> 00:44:53,836
Speaker 1: mental health issue and sort of an information issue that

742
00:44:53,876 --> 00:44:56,676
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, you know, the fetishizing of guns

743
00:44:56,676 --> 00:44:58,596
Speaker 1: in the country, you actually have to sort of you know,

744
00:44:58,636 --> 00:45:01,396
Speaker 1: get some counseling about this. That seemed really kind of

745
00:45:01,436 --> 00:45:03,876
Speaker 1: like productive in a way, like like that that they

746
00:45:03,876 --> 00:45:07,316
Speaker 1: would counter sort of this our culture around guns. Um.

747
00:45:07,636 --> 00:45:09,836
Speaker 1: And I was like, man, what if this young athlete,

748
00:45:09,916 --> 00:45:13,356
Speaker 1: this young superstar sort of took on the idea of,

749
00:45:13,916 --> 00:45:17,316
Speaker 1: you know, of of changing our gun culture. And it

750
00:45:17,356 --> 00:45:19,916
Speaker 1: seems it seems like it wouldn't work because he would

751
00:45:19,916 --> 00:45:21,796
Speaker 1: in all the ways that you just said, Malcolm, like

752
00:45:21,836 --> 00:45:24,956
Speaker 1: this young twenty year old a kind of like sophistication

753
00:45:25,236 --> 00:45:28,156
Speaker 1: and the time he would have to put into it

754
00:45:28,196 --> 00:45:32,476
Speaker 1: away from his craft, which is all encompassing. But it's

755
00:45:32,516 --> 00:45:35,316
Speaker 1: like there is sort of this hopeless, hopeful aspect in it.

756
00:45:36,396 --> 00:45:38,596
Speaker 1: I like that, actually, yeah, I mean that would be

757
00:45:38,836 --> 00:45:44,196
Speaker 1: a productive Who's next? You are? You are? Yeah? All right,

758
00:45:44,276 --> 00:45:48,956
Speaker 1: it's mine. I want when the NBA's collective bargaining agreement

759
00:45:49,036 --> 00:45:53,556
Speaker 1: runs out, I want Lebron to stand up and say, guys,

760
00:45:54,036 --> 00:45:58,476
Speaker 1: we're done, walk out of the room, start a new league.

761
00:45:59,596 --> 00:46:03,076
Speaker 1: There's just no reason. You understand that, Like, there's nothing

762
00:46:03,276 --> 00:46:07,236
Speaker 1: tying all of these players to the owners. It's bullshit.

763
00:46:07,676 --> 00:46:10,356
Speaker 1: It's complete bullshit. You have a group of owners who

764
00:46:10,396 --> 00:46:14,676
Speaker 1: are profiting massively off this game that they are basically

765
00:46:15,156 --> 00:46:18,236
Speaker 1: doing almost nothing. I mean, in fact, they're probably actively

766
00:46:18,276 --> 00:46:22,796
Speaker 1: thwarting it. So there's you. You don't think that if

767
00:46:22,876 --> 00:46:26,396
Speaker 1: Lebron makes one phone call to his people at CIA

768
00:46:26,636 --> 00:46:28,156
Speaker 1: or there and just say, Okay, help me out here.

769
00:46:28,316 --> 00:46:32,276
Speaker 1: Let's find some arenas. Let's if eighty five percent of

770
00:46:32,276 --> 00:46:34,556
Speaker 1: the players opt out of the NBA, the NBA ceases

771
00:46:34,596 --> 00:46:38,116
Speaker 1: to exist. Let's start our own franchises, let's all take

772
00:46:38,116 --> 00:46:40,196
Speaker 1: a piece of the action. Let's cut a new deal

773
00:46:40,236 --> 00:46:45,316
Speaker 1: with the television networks. Like, I want to ask you this, Malcolm,

774
00:46:45,316 --> 00:46:48,596
Speaker 1: because you chose something that is not is not necessarily

775
00:46:48,636 --> 00:46:51,716
Speaker 1: fighting for larger social justice, but fighting for one's own

776
00:46:51,796 --> 00:46:55,076
Speaker 1: labor rights? Does that? I sort of in my mind

777
00:46:55,076 --> 00:46:57,276
Speaker 1: I make a distinction between those two. Yeah, Well, I'm

778
00:46:57,316 --> 00:47:01,676
Speaker 1: going back to Khalil was mentioning William Roden's book. So

779
00:47:01,716 --> 00:47:05,356
Speaker 1: if that's the problem, let's solve the problem. Lebron can

780
00:47:05,396 --> 00:47:07,636
Speaker 1: do it. As far as I can tell, there's a

781
00:47:07,636 --> 00:47:10,356
Speaker 1: circular leader, a lot more create ativity and leadership and

782
00:47:10,476 --> 00:47:12,476
Speaker 1: intelligence in the player of community right now than in

783
00:47:12,516 --> 00:47:16,196
Speaker 1: the owner community. So like it. Let's go. Yeah, And

784
00:47:16,356 --> 00:47:18,636
Speaker 1: in a way, by by him being much older and

785
00:47:18,676 --> 00:47:21,676
Speaker 1: more experienced and even at the tail end of his career,

786
00:47:21,916 --> 00:47:24,756
Speaker 1: it seems much more likely they could have done it.

787
00:47:24,796 --> 00:47:26,676
Speaker 1: The last time the CBA was up. A couple of

788
00:47:26,716 --> 00:47:29,116
Speaker 1: years ago. I actually, Malcolm, I'm giving you big ups

789
00:47:29,116 --> 00:47:31,436
Speaker 1: for that. I really like that suggestion, and I think

790
00:47:31,716 --> 00:47:33,956
Speaker 1: I think taking back you're the man, You're the man

791
00:47:34,036 --> 00:47:36,156
Speaker 1: to be the kind of like in your new role

792
00:47:36,196 --> 00:47:40,516
Speaker 1: as the Air Apparent areawards. That's that's I'm gonna I'm

793
00:47:40,516 --> 00:47:42,876
Speaker 1: gonna pass that on. Um Well, I think these are

794
00:47:42,876 --> 00:47:46,076
Speaker 1: two fabulous suggestions, and two is good enough for now. Malcolm,

795
00:47:46,156 --> 00:47:51,756
Speaker 1: we are it does not work like that, all right,

796
00:47:51,956 --> 00:47:54,396
Speaker 1: all right, So here's here's mine. Here's mine. Here's mine.

797
00:47:54,556 --> 00:47:57,676
Speaker 1: So I think Serena and Venus Williams the team up

798
00:47:57,716 --> 00:48:01,036
Speaker 1: to fight fight climate change on the basis of putting

799
00:48:01,036 --> 00:48:04,516
Speaker 1: an end to on labor practices in the fashion industry

800
00:48:04,596 --> 00:48:07,236
Speaker 1: or the fast fashion industry, which is to say that

801
00:48:07,556 --> 00:48:10,156
Speaker 1: the extractive way in which we are producing a shit

802
00:48:10,276 --> 00:48:13,596
Speaker 1: ton of clothes that are not meant to last, that

803
00:48:13,836 --> 00:48:18,996
Speaker 1: are clogging up the Earth's landfills. They have the platform,

804
00:48:19,156 --> 00:48:21,996
Speaker 1: they have the capacity. I just think this is a

805
00:48:22,036 --> 00:48:25,516
Speaker 1: really rich space for them to own since they're already

806
00:48:25,516 --> 00:48:27,316
Speaker 1: in the fashion industry, and it could go a long

807
00:48:27,356 --> 00:48:29,836
Speaker 1: way to dealing with some of the issues that are

808
00:48:29,916 --> 00:48:34,036
Speaker 1: related to fast fashion. Yeah. Oh, this was really terrific.

809
00:48:34,116 --> 00:48:37,316
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Malcolm. We had a lot of fun

810
00:48:37,356 --> 00:48:46,716
Speaker 1: talking to you today. Thank you, Malcolm. Thanks guys Man Khalil.

811
00:48:46,796 --> 00:48:49,796
Speaker 1: It is so interesting that Malcolm is working on this

812
00:48:49,836 --> 00:48:54,956
Speaker 1: book about Tom Bradley, los Angeles's first black mayor, and

813
00:48:54,996 --> 00:48:57,596
Speaker 1: that even that that book, that story is related to

814
00:48:57,636 --> 00:49:01,716
Speaker 1: our conversation about athletics and politics. Yeah, yeah, you know,

815
00:49:01,756 --> 00:49:04,876
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Malcolm in the podcast Legacy of Speed as

816
00:49:04,876 --> 00:49:08,436
Speaker 1: obviously building this into a bigger story and this interesting

817
00:49:08,476 --> 00:49:12,996
Speaker 1: framing about these choices that people make. Bradley obviously makes it,

818
00:49:13,276 --> 00:49:15,036
Speaker 1: and so many of the people we talked about from

819
00:49:15,076 --> 00:49:19,236
Speaker 1: Tommy Smith and others about exit voice or loyalty and

820
00:49:19,516 --> 00:49:22,876
Speaker 1: thinking about yeah, thinking about the costs a voice, like

821
00:49:22,956 --> 00:49:26,636
Speaker 1: when you stand up in protests, yep, a glad Wellian move,

822
00:49:26,796 --> 00:49:29,196
Speaker 1: a glad Wellian move. Yeah. So one of the things

823
00:49:29,276 --> 00:49:31,516
Speaker 1: maybe we didn't talk a lot about was the cost

824
00:49:31,676 --> 00:49:33,676
Speaker 1: like when you do protests, and most people know about

825
00:49:33,676 --> 00:49:38,076
Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick, he takes a knee, there's there's this backlash

826
00:49:38,116 --> 00:49:40,596
Speaker 1: and essentially doesn't really get to play in the NFL again,

827
00:49:40,596 --> 00:49:43,716
Speaker 1: and he accuses and many people of the owners of colluding.

828
00:49:43,756 --> 00:49:45,996
Speaker 1: So he's never signed that's right, And of course we

829
00:49:46,076 --> 00:49:48,356
Speaker 1: learned something today, a little bit of breaking news about

830
00:49:48,436 --> 00:49:51,396
Speaker 1: how the owners really feel about him. Yeah, but this

831
00:49:51,436 --> 00:49:54,196
Speaker 1: isn't the first time, right. The long story that we

832
00:49:54,236 --> 00:49:58,516
Speaker 1: explore today also includes Tommy Smith and John Carlos. Yeah. Yeah,

833
00:49:58,516 --> 00:50:00,396
Speaker 1: most people don't know about the cost of what happened

834
00:50:00,396 --> 00:50:02,556
Speaker 1: to them for protesting, you know, so they're kicked out

835
00:50:02,556 --> 00:50:05,316
Speaker 1: of the off the Olympic team, they're sent home, and

836
00:50:05,716 --> 00:50:08,716
Speaker 1: for the rest of their careers they suffer financially. They

837
00:50:09,116 --> 00:50:11,876
Speaker 1: they are not able to flourish, even though they're two

838
00:50:11,916 --> 00:50:14,756
Speaker 1: of the best track stars ever in the history of track.

839
00:50:15,116 --> 00:50:17,276
Speaker 1: That's right, and in fact, I mean best I know.

840
00:50:17,316 --> 00:50:20,476
Speaker 1: They actually don't ever have running careers past that point.

841
00:50:20,876 --> 00:50:23,676
Speaker 1: Tommy Smith goes on to do some coaching, uh much

842
00:50:23,756 --> 00:50:26,436
Speaker 1: later on. And John Carlos, interesting left I met in

843
00:50:26,476 --> 00:50:28,436
Speaker 1: Harlem many years ago, you know, who was sort of

844
00:50:28,476 --> 00:50:30,916
Speaker 1: still telling the story. He had a memoir come out,

845
00:50:32,076 --> 00:50:33,996
Speaker 1: and we know, of course what happened to Muhammad Ali,

846
00:50:34,076 --> 00:50:38,236
Speaker 1: so you know there are real cost to voice. Yeah.

847
00:50:38,276 --> 00:50:40,396
Speaker 1: I was thinking too. You know, Malcolm says this thing

848
00:50:40,436 --> 00:50:43,676
Speaker 1: to me earlier about um, you know, do we expect

849
00:50:43,716 --> 00:50:45,556
Speaker 1: too much of athletes? And you know, it got me

850
00:50:45,636 --> 00:50:47,756
Speaker 1: thinking about all of us, like, what do we expect

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00:50:47,796 --> 00:50:49,876
Speaker 1: from all of us, right, you know, in the face

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00:50:49,916 --> 00:50:53,516
Speaker 1: of injustice, whether we all have an obligation to say something,

853
00:50:53,916 --> 00:50:59,676
Speaker 1: to do something, and that that athletes as their platform increases,

854
00:51:00,276 --> 00:51:03,036
Speaker 1: whether whether they can do even more, whether they have

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00:51:03,116 --> 00:51:07,356
Speaker 1: more obligation and in some fundamental way, I still think yes.

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00:51:07,756 --> 00:51:10,556
Speaker 1: And you know, you know he said about you know,

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00:51:10,556 --> 00:51:13,076
Speaker 1: do we expect more from black athletes than white athletes?

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00:51:13,636 --> 00:51:17,916
Speaker 1: Maybe so, I don't think that's right, but but you know,

859
00:51:18,076 --> 00:51:20,716
Speaker 1: in terms of what's going on in our country's it

860
00:51:20,756 --> 00:51:23,316
Speaker 1: sort of falls on black athletes more. Yeah, And I

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00:51:23,356 --> 00:51:25,596
Speaker 1: just have one final thought on this point. You know,

862
00:51:25,636 --> 00:51:29,156
Speaker 1: when an athlete with a megaphone of platform, whether it's

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00:51:29,156 --> 00:51:33,276
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan or Lebron James or Serena Williams for that matter,

864
00:51:34,436 --> 00:51:37,436
Speaker 1: is not it chooses not to use voice, it sends

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00:51:37,436 --> 00:51:41,316
Speaker 1: a powerful political market signal that the issue is actually

866
00:51:41,356 --> 00:51:45,236
Speaker 1: not important, and people weaponize that silence to say, these

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00:51:45,236 --> 00:51:48,556
Speaker 1: other people are radicals and they're miseducating the public. This

868
00:51:48,676 --> 00:51:51,836
Speaker 1: is not really an issue. So there are costs and

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00:51:51,996 --> 00:51:54,436
Speaker 1: real ones to how we move forward in a society.

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00:51:54,716 --> 00:51:57,356
Speaker 1: All right. So here's what we're gonna do. Any athlete

871
00:51:57,356 --> 00:52:01,156
Speaker 1: that you just named, MJ Serena, anyone, we are going

872
00:52:01,196 --> 00:52:03,756
Speaker 1: to give them a platform right here, they can come

873
00:52:03,796 --> 00:52:06,796
Speaker 1: on our show and we will do this. The offer

874
00:52:06,836 --> 00:52:10,356
Speaker 1: is out there in the world, that's right, open invitation

875
00:52:10,516 --> 00:52:13,836
Speaker 1: to some of my best friends are all right, all right?

876
00:52:14,476 --> 00:52:22,276
Speaker 1: Love you, love you man. Some of my best Friends

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00:52:22,316 --> 00:52:25,596
Speaker 1: Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is

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00:52:25,596 --> 00:52:28,716
Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Khalil Gibran Mohammed and my

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00:52:28,756 --> 00:52:32,956
Speaker 1: best friend Ben Austin. This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan.

880
00:52:33,316 --> 00:52:36,836
Speaker 1: It's edited by Sarah Knicks with help from Kishel Williams.

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00:52:37,076 --> 00:52:41,596
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Amanda Kawang, and our managing producer is

882
00:52:41,796 --> 00:52:47,796
Speaker 1: Constanza Gayardo. At Pushkin thanks to Leita Mulad, Julia Barton,

883
00:52:48,116 --> 00:52:54,156
Speaker 1: Heather Fain, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weissberg.

884
00:52:54,716 --> 00:52:58,436
Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow Chicagoan the

885
00:52:58,556 --> 00:53:02,476
Speaker 1: brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely

886
00:53:02,516 --> 00:53:05,196
Speaker 1: want to check out his music at his website Avery R.

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00:53:05,316 --> 00:53:08,556
Speaker 1: Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social

888
00:53:08,596 --> 00:53:11,796
Speaker 1: platform at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for

889
00:53:11,796 --> 00:53:16,076
Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,

890
00:53:16,396 --> 00:53:20,436
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

891
00:53:20,516 --> 00:53:23,276
Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please

892
00:53:23,316 --> 00:53:25,716
Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review and

893
00:53:25,836 --> 00:53:27,316
Speaker 1: listen even if you don't like it, give it a

894
00:53:27,316 --> 00:53:30,316
Speaker 1: five star rating and a review, and please tell all

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00:53:30,356 --> 00:53:32,476
Speaker 1: of your best friends about it. Thank you,