1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: On this episode of newts World, the Culture Wars, wokeness, 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: identity politics. There are heated discussions right now around these terms, 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: but very little understanding what these ideas actually mean. In 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: his new book The Identity Trap, A Story of Ideas 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: and Power in Our Time, Yasha Monk delivers one of 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the most incisive explorations of a divisive debate that has 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: come to dominate everything from our politics, our academic institutions, 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: our legal system, our media, and corporate America. A new 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: set of ideas about race, gender, and sexual orientation, often 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: referred to as woke, has spread so rapidly in the 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: past decade we have barely had time to consider its 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: merits in a serious manner. Most people either celebrate these 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: ideas on critically or dismiss them as obviously undeserving of 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: genuine engagement. Here to discuss this new book, I'm really 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: pleased to welcome my guest, Josher Monk. He is a 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: professor of the Practice of International Affairs at Johns Hopkins University, 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: the founder of the digital magazine Persuasion, a contributing editor 18 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: at the Atlantic, and a senior fellow at the Council 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: on Foreign Relations, and obviously a very busy man. Yasha, 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me on Newts World. 21 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I look forward to our conversation. 22 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: Well, you were born and raised in Germany. When and 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: why did you come to the US. 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: So that's right. I grew up in Germany. I went 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 2: to college in England, and I first came to the 26 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 2: United States because I loved New York and what I 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: wanted to live there, and when I spent a year 28 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: studying at Columbia University and ended up doing my PhD 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: up in Boston and barely living in New York since. 30 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: But you know, I became a United Statesitisen in twenty 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 2: seventeen and have come to love a county as a whole. 32 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. What was it like growing up Jewish 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: in Germany. 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: It was interesting at the time when I was born 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two, there was only about thirty thousand 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: Jews in Germany, now a few more, and so for 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: a lot of the people who met me, I was 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: really the kind of representation of their attitude of the 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: country's past. And so some people who met me were 40 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: anti Semitic or treated me poorly, perhaps sometimes because we 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: wanted to prove to me that they weren't so sorry 42 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 2: about the country's past or they weren't going to treat 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: me any better because I'm Jewish in a kind of 44 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: demonstrative way. But when others did the opposite, they wanted 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: to prove to me that they felt very guilty for 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: the third Rite, and that therefore they loved the Jews, 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: And they ended up being sort of phylosmitic in a 48 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: slightly creepy way, you know, telling me that Hebrew is 49 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: a beautiful language, or how much they loved the movies 50 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: of the Jewish filmmaker. There was Venvers well known in Germany, 51 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: which is Woody Allen and things like that, and so 52 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: it was a very kind of strange set of experience. 53 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: And I think, in a roundabout way, that's one of 54 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: the things that I took with me when I came 55 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: to the States, where I loved that people treated me 56 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: in a much more straightforward, much more normal way. But 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: then as a set of these new norms and rules 58 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: about how to treat each other became more prominent, especially 59 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: in the kind of spaces in which I spent a 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: lot of time, in universities and nonprofits and someone that 61 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: tend to lean left in various ways. I realized that 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: I was sometimes asked to treat others within the United 63 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: States in the way that I had not liked being 64 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: treated in Germany. And I thought that didn't make me 65 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: feel like a true equal when I was growing up, 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: and it wouldn't help people here feel like true equals 67 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: if I treated them in the same kind of way. 68 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: So we need to find a better way to actually 69 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: treat each other with respect, without either being hostile to 70 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: each other or panneling to each other in these weird ways. 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: You turned your experiences growing up in Germany into a 72 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: book Stranger in my own country, a Jewish family in 73 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: modern Germany. What was it like to write that? 74 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: Well, it was kind of reflecting on many of those experiences. 75 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: I was trying to understand both the standing of Jews 76 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: and Germany today, and then through that these different phases 77 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: of how Germans tried to deal with and to grapple 78 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: with their history. But it also felt a little bit 79 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: like an exorcism, you know. I grew up grappling with 80 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: those issues, and as I moved away from Germany and 81 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 2: those issues became less central to my life, I think 82 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: writing this book was kind of a good cathartic experience 83 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: of moving on to different topics. 84 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: You say that sometime between nineteen ninety and twenty ten, 85 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: that's between the time when you were eight years old 86 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: in twenty eight quoting you, now, you say I had 87 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: stopped rooting for the German team, or identifying with Germany 88 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: or thinking of myself as German. Was that just a 89 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: gradual process or was there a morning when you woke 90 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: up and realized, you know, I'm not them. 91 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: I think it was a gradual process, And now that 92 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 2: it's been a few more years, perhaps I actually wouldn't 93 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: say that same sentence exactly the same way. Again, I 94 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: think I was really gra with whether I was able 95 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: to fully belong in a country in which just mentioning 96 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: a certain fact about my identity would put me apart 97 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: from others in this really complicated way. And so I 98 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: think that's what led to this process of alienation. That's 99 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: what made me think that some of these kind of norms, 100 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: some of that isn't actually particularly useful today. I'm a 101 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: proud the United States citizen. I retained my German citizenship 102 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: as well, and perhaps I would more freely say that 103 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: growing up in Germany and being born there has shaped me, 104 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: and that, among other things from German. It's not perhaps 105 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: my primary identity, but that's part of who I am 106 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: and part of how I grew up. And I think 107 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: I have a most straightforward relationship to that identity. But 108 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: I did in the past in the World Cup. 109 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: Who do you root for? 110 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'll tell you what. In the World 111 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: Cup I rooted for Italy. 112 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: Okay, why is that? 113 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: You know? I love Italy. I spent a lot of 114 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: time there. I was there in two thousand and six 115 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: when we won the World Cup. I like the football 116 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: they play, even for a lot of people don't. Then 117 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: I can also root for Into my mean, whose journey 118 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: I've been following with great admiration for the last months 119 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: as the Edito messy to the team. And I also 120 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 2: root for Bayern Munich at the club level in Europe. 121 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: So you know what, can have multiple identities and that's 122 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: just fine. 123 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: My wife, Callista, was the ambassador of the Vatican and 124 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: we got to spend three and a half years in Rome, 125 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: and the Italians are as passionate about football as they 126 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: are about virtually everything else in life. It's enormous fun 127 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: to go to a bar and watch them during a match. 128 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: It was just a level of the intensity was unbelievable. 129 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: The only thing I've seen in Italy that beats soccer 130 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: in the World Cup in intensity is a pallio and 131 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: seeing the horse race. 132 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: We went one year years ago when mel Cimber was 133 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: the ambassador. He took us up there and we had 134 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: a room looking right out over the finishing line, which 135 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: belonged to a native of Siena who now worked as 136 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: a banker in Florence, but who kept this apartment for 137 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: the purpose twice a year of coming back for the 138 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: horse race, and his level of intensity about whether or 139 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: not his team was going to win was so astonishing. 140 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: It was like a parody of an Italian movie. I mean, 141 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: it was a nervous wreck before they even started. It 142 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: was one of the great memories of my life, and 143 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: I recommend anybody listening goes. If you can go to Siena. 144 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: They have two horse races every summer. They are both 145 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: extraordinary experiences. 146 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: Wouldn't you agree, Oh yes, I mean it's one of them. 147 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: One of the things I love is that at the 148 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: end of it, the jockey from the winning contrada from 149 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: the winning part of the town rides into the cathedral, 150 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: the beautiful cathedral I've seen on the horse, and is 151 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: blessed by the bishop. I mean, it's a bizarre mix 152 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: of Catholicism and kind of form of patriotism and some 153 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: kind of form of semi pagan ritual evidently sanctioned by 154 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: the Catholic Church, and it's quite something close. 155 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: There was a good Catholic was shocked because you know, 156 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: they put the most to the horse's mouth and she's going, 157 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: what you can't do that, Qerson, Sianna, you can do that. 158 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: I was fascinated that all four of your grandparents went 159 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: to prison, which has to also be sort of a 160 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: fascinating thing to grow up with, walk us through. How 161 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: did they end up in prison? 162 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: My grandparents were born in Stettles and what today is Ukraine, 163 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: what then was the Austro Hungarian Empire, and they were 164 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: Jewish and they experienced, you know, a lot of progroms, 165 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: a lot of discrimination, and so they put their faith 166 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: as teenagers in an ideology that promised to overcome those 167 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: kinds of religious based to ethnic based hatreds, and that 168 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 2: was Communism at the time right, it's said that it 169 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 2: would not distinguish between people on the basis of which 170 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 2: group you were born into, what group were you were 171 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: a part of. And they became communist activists, and they 172 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: were in jail in the late twenties and nearly thirties 173 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: in Poland for their communist activities. They survived the war 174 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: by fleeing east to the Soviet Union, under often grew 175 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: some nitions, and then in the late forties and fifties 176 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: they helped to build up for communist regime in Poland, 177 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: but of course that regime ended up turning on them. 178 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty eight there was a big state sponsored 179 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: antisemitic progrom in Poland, and there was about fifty thousand 180 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 2: Jews left in nineteen sixty seven, and when there was 181 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: about five hundred left by nineteen seventy because of that, 182 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: And so I grew up without their political convictions. But 183 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: I always did retain a little bit of a belief 184 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: that that form of universalism had something to recommend itself, 185 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: that this aspiration that one day we would be less 186 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: defined by the group into which we're born was a 187 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: part of the noble aspiration of a certain kind of 188 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: old fashioned Left. And one of the things by Chronicle 189 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: in this new book and the Identity Trap, is how 190 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: the Left has given up on those universalist ambitions and 191 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: gone from a movement that wants to de emphasize which 192 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: group you're born into, that wants to say you can 193 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: have things in common and beyond the categories of race 194 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: and religion and sexual orientation, to an ideology that encourages 195 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: people to conceive of themselves as strongly as possible as 196 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: being defined by the kind of group into which they're born, 197 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 2: and that I think is a historical mistake. 198 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt. In my new book, March the Majority, 199 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: The Real Story of the Republican Revolution, I offer strategies 200 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: and insights for everyday citizens and for seasoned politicians. It's 201 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: both a guide for political success and for winning back 202 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: the Majority. In twenty twenty four, March to the Majority 203 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: outlines the sixteen year campaign to write the Contract with America. 204 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: Explains how we elected the first Republican House majority in 205 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: forty years in how we worked with President Bill Clinton 206 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: to pass major reforms, including four consecutives balanced budgets. 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Does 216 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: that basically mean tribalism or what does it mean? 217 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? So, what I describe in the book is a 218 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: new set of ideas about race and gender and sexual 219 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: orientation that have first of all, remade how we talk 220 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: about those issues in universities. Secondly, really transformed how the 221 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: Left things about those issues. But firtly, because the Left 222 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: is very influential on many mainstream institutions in the United States, 223 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: it has really actually changed the values, the norms, the 224 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: ideas that animate core American institutions, and those ideas are 225 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: often motivated by genuinely noble intentions. I teach students at university, 226 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: and a lot of the students I have, I think 227 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: are generally motivated to make for world a better place. 228 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: They recognize that America remains a deeply unjust place. They 229 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: have what I believe are very legitimate fears about a 230 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: research and far right in this country as well, and 231 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: therefore one for most radical set of ideas that is 232 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: going to overcome verstonjustices. And so they end up embracing 233 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: what a lot of people call woke ideas, what I 234 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: prefer to refer to as the identity synthesis. For that reason, 235 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 2: so that's the lure, right It has this promise that 236 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: it's the most radical thing that's going to set for 237 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: world to righte and I have a lot of sympathy 238 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: for that, but it does end up being a trap. 239 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: It ends up being a trap for a number of 240 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: political reasons. Once you embrace these kinds of norms, it 241 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 2: actually becomes very difficult for your organizations to function. We've 242 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: seen all of these strife, all of these meltdowns in 243 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: the last years in mainstream institutions and particularly in progressive organizations, 244 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: because they have bought these ideas hook line and sinker. 245 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 2: It is a political trap because it often leads people 246 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: to embrace policies that are meant to serve those who 247 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: have historically been marginalized or dominated, but actually doesn't like 248 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: a set of pedagogical approaches like for rejection of phonics, 249 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: for example, which was meant to somehow be more equitable, 250 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: meant to bring people in, but has resulted in millions 251 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: of children from disadvantage backgrounds not learning to read and 252 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: therefore not having the tools they need in order to 253 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: succeed in and thrive in life and in society. And 254 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: I think it's a personal as well. I think this 255 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: trend that we see in many elite private schools, for example, 256 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: of encouraging children to see themselves primarily as quote unquote 257 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: racial beings, the tendency to split them up between different 258 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: groups based on their race is meant to create a 259 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: society where we're hyper aware of injustice, but really it 260 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: creates a society where we're hyper aware of who's part 261 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: of my ethnic group and who's part of your ethnic group. 262 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: And that'll make it hard and not easier to sustain 263 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: a fair, thriving, diverse democracy like the United States. And 264 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: so that's why it's a chap because well intentioned people 265 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: can end up being lwered into these ideas, but the 266 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: goals they have, some of which are laudable end up 267 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: being subverted by their adherence to these ideas well. 268 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: In a sense, it reverses the motto out of many 269 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: one and turns it back into the opposite, which is 270 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: out of one. We now try to become many, and 271 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: we separate ourselves out in a way that is almost 272 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: the exact the opposite of what I think the founding 273 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: fathers had in mind. 274 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: And I think that's especially true for these racial affinity 275 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: groups that you've now adopted in many universities, in many corporations, 276 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: and in many schools. Right there are schools like Gordon 277 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: and Rhode Island, like Bank Street in New York, like 278 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: Sibyl Friends in DC, the schools that educate some of 279 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: the most influential people in this country, that now have 280 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: teachers coming into classrooms sometimes in third grade or second grade, 281 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: in first grade and tell kids, if you're black, you 282 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: go over there. If you Latino, you go over there. 283 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: If you asient a mark and you go over there. 284 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: And if you go if you're white, you go over there. 285 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: And the idea is I explain the origin of these 286 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: ideas in my book. We're rooted in the concept of 287 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: strategic essentialism invented by a literary scholar called Gua to Spievak. 288 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: The idea is that getting people to lead into their 289 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: identities is going to allow them to resist injustice betterm. 290 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: But that's not actually what happens. What you do is 291 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: to tell people that we should priority ties for interest 292 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: over their own group over those of others. And I'm 293 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: particularly concerned about that in the case of white kids. 294 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: What are you telling those white kids when you put 295 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: them in a separate group. Now, some people worry that 296 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: they're going to be uncomfortable, and they might be uncomfortable, 297 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: But you know what, I think being uncomfortable in new 298 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: education sometimes is fine. I'm not so worried about that. 299 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: What I'm worried about is that everything in history and 300 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: everything in social science teaches us that the group of 301 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: which we identified can be relatively malleable, readily flexible. But 302 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: once you identify with a particular group, once you say 303 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: the most important thing about me is that I'm American, 304 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: or I'm Catholic, or I'm this, or I'm white, then 305 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: that is the set of interests on which you're going 306 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: to fight. And so I don't think that those kids 307 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: that are being separated into white groups are likely to 308 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: become courageous anti racists who fight against white privilege. I 309 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: think it's much more likely that we become racists and 310 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: white supremacists. 311 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Isn't it almost a reversal of the idea that we're 312 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: individuals that were each personally endowed by our care and 313 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: that we come together voluntarily to create a larger, better thing. 314 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: But we don't do it as groups. We do it 315 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: as individuals. And isn't there a profound conflict there between 316 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: the sense that you're a unique you or are you 317 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: submerged into being part of a group that could be 318 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: identified in many different ways? 319 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: I agree with that. I have a few thoughts in this. 320 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: I mean one is that this is why this is 321 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 2: a personal trap, not just a political trap. All of 322 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 2: us seek a form of recognition from society, right, all 323 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 2: of us want to feel seen, all of us in 324 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: some sense. I know this has become a little bit 325 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: of a bad word. Want to be unique little snowflakes. 326 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: I'm a unique little snowflake. You're unique little snow And 327 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: it's fine, right. We want to be seen as what 328 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: makes us different and special than others. But what a 329 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 2: lot of young people are now taught what the message 330 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: they're getting from the schools, from the broader social environment, 331 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: from the universities. Is The thing that will give you 332 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: that recognition is to define yourself by the particular intersection 333 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: of your identities at which you stand. If you just 334 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: think about all the groups into which you're born, and 335 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: that's who you are and as part of who we are. 336 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: Of course, my life story influences who I am. Your 337 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: life story and your parents and your background has influenced 338 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: who you are in your life, and that's perfectly fine. 339 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: But if you reduce it to that, we have a problem. 340 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: I'm not identical to my brother. I might have many 341 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: of the same identities as my brother, but we're very 342 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: different people. To be recognized in society, I need to 343 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: be seen in different terms. And that's why I agree 344 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: with you that is dangerous. Now. The thing that gives 345 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: me hope is that many different moral and political traditions 346 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: have recognized this right. I am somebody who's motivated by 347 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: the values of philosophical liberalism, not in a sense of 348 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 2: liberal and conservative, but in the sense of a great 349 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: tradition of people like John Stuart Mill who have thought 350 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: about the role that treedom should play in society and 351 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 2: to have theorized the kind of protections we need from 352 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: a collective will in order to be able to be 353 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: truly engaged in shaping our own lives and thinking freely 354 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: about the world and so on. Other people may be 355 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: more motivated by the religious values. Other people may have 356 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: political convictions, but a huge variety of these traditions will 357 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: lead you to reject this single minded focus on identity. 358 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: To a Christian, for example, what is most important about us, 359 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: what is fundamental about us, is that we're all created. 360 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: All humans are created in the image of our makeup, 361 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: and that therefore the distinctions we may see in our 362 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: societies based on ethnicity and national origin and so on 363 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 2: are less important than the fact that we have as all. Right, 364 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 2: So I think that gives me a little bit of hope. 365 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: There's going to be Americans with many different sets of convictions, 366 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: many different sets of rigious persuasions, that can push back 367 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: against these misguided ideas. 368 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that your grandparents were attracted to Marxism 369 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: in part because it offered this hope for a society 370 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: in which there wouldn't be these kind of divisions. And 371 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious both the earliest stages of the 372 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: French Revolution and the sort of transky eyed wing of 373 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: the Soviet Revolution really seemed to idealistically favor they genuinely 374 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: class the society in which people really were integrated together, 375 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: and then both of them degenerate into dictatorship and violence 376 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: and persecution. Do you think that it's just that humans 377 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: can't sustain that kind of utopian vision, because they're really 378 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: interesting parallels between the two revolutions and how they evolve. 379 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: That's great research on utopian communities that build not at 380 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: the level of a state, but just at a smaller level. Right, 381 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: these folks in the seventies who decided to move to Vermont, 382 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: to move to somewhere remote and have these communes and 383 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: live in this utopian way, and they nearly always devolve 384 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: the same time, in the same stages. At the beginning, 385 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: for half a year or four a year, when you 386 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: have these people who are really motivated, who are really altruistic, 387 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: you can make it work. And many of the people 388 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: who participated in those attempts say this is one of 389 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: the most beautiful moments of their lives. And then the 390 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 2: assumption that everybody can be selfless for so long that 391 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: you can live without private property, that nobody is going 392 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: to try and exercise power, whether formal power or just 393 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 2: informal domination over others end up being broken. And often 394 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 2: these communities that start out so hopeful become cults, will 395 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 2: become people where you know, some people are bullied in 396 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 2: terrible ways, where any form of dissent, any form of disagreement, 397 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: becomes punished in extreme ways. And you see this happening 398 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: again and again and again in these different kinds of contacts. 399 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: So I think there is something about just the frailties 400 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: of human nature that make that difficult. But at a 401 00:21:53,520 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: broader level, we know what society sustain relatively peaceful and 402 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 2: tolerant and prosperous societies, and that is ones that have 403 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: a protections of what political scientists called liberal democracies or 404 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: what sometimes in America people who are more conservative would 405 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: call it democratic republic right. It is societies where we 406 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: collectively have a form of self determination, we collectively help 407 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: to make the laws, but we're also protected from the laws. 408 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 2: Even when the majority passes a law that says this 409 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: is how you should worship, or this is what you 410 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: should say, and this is what you should not say 411 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: We as individuals can say no, I have a right 412 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 2: to free speech or I have a right to free worship, 413 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: and even these democratically passed laws do not get to 414 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 2: tell me how I should live. I think the core 415 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 2: problem of Marxism and Bolshevism, and the core problem of 416 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: the radical elements of a French revolution, is that they 417 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: denied that insight, that they did not recognize that without 418 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 2: those protections the power of a state would become so crushing. 419 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 2: But whoever happens to be in charge at any one time, 420 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: it slowly morph into dictator. 421 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: I'm doing some writing right now for The American Spectator 422 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: on the origins of our current debate over the nature 423 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: of our constitution and our system, and I've gone back. 424 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of writing about the nineteen sixties 425 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: in both the civil rights movement and the Black power movement. 426 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: And it's very striking when you read Reverend Martin Luther 427 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: King Junior's speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial. I mean, 428 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: hasn't that king spirit of unification and integration almost been 429 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: repudiated now on the academic campuses. 430 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: It has, and so it isn't parts of the Academy 431 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: and in this novel ideology that it described in the 432 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: book right so as a sort of debate today about 433 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 2: what should we call woke or critical race theory. And 434 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: you know, I think as people on parts of the 435 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: right that invoke these terms in very damaging ways, that 436 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 2: use these terms to argue against things that are reasonable, 437 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: like recognizing that is serious racism in our society today, 438 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 2: recognizing that I think there's a form of far right 439 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: populous politics that is very dangerous to our democratic institutions, 440 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 2: Recognizing that, of course we should teach children in our 441 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: schools about the injustices in American history, such as slavery. 442 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: But as a result, you know, a lot of the 443 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 2: mainstream and parts of the left have come to think 444 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 2: that these terms only mean embracing these commonsensical things. All 445 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: that it is to believe in critical race theory is 446 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: to want to examine critically the role of race in 447 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 2: our society, which is something we should, of course do. 448 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: But when you go back to the actual founders or 449 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 2: these traditions, you see that they were much more radical 450 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: than that. But in some ways they would turn in 451 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: their graves to think that they're being reduced to those things. 452 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: That most Americans agree with. So somebody like Derek Bell 453 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: is really interesting here. He's the founder of critical race theory, 454 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: of a person widely acknowledged to be the most influential 455 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: figure in shaping this tradition. He did heroic work in 456 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties working for the NAAC and fighting for 457 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: desegregating schools and businesses and other institutions throughout the American South, 458 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 2: when he started to think of that as a mistake 459 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: and started to actually explicitly agree with some segregationist senators 460 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: who claimed that civil rights lawyers went really interested in 461 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 2: what the clients wanted. They just wanted to impose this 462 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: ideology of integration on people, and that to really serve 463 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: their black clients, perhaps the civil rights lawyers should have 464 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: actually been open to schools that were God separate but 465 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: truly equal. Right, And so he said that we need 466 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: to reject the defunct racial equality ideology of the civil 467 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: rights movement. So there was a frontal attack on the 468 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: civil rights movement. When I'm criticizing these ideas. What I'm 469 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: defending is one of the proudest traditions in American politics 470 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: that in my mind, extends from people like Frederick dougla 471 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 2: to Abraham Lincoln to Martin Luther King junior. Frederick Douglas 472 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: when he was invited to hold a speech commemorating the 473 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: fourth of July, he said, to his listeners, you all 474 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: are hypocrites. You're hypocrites. You're talking about all men being 475 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: born equal, and what a lovely value that is when 476 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 2: there's slavery in the United States. But he didn't then 477 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: go on to say, therefore we should rip up the 478 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: Declaration of Independence. He said, so, if you're serious about 479 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 2: these values, you need to fight for abolitionism, need to 480 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: live up to these values. Martin Luther King said that 481 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 2: the promissiony note that had been issued to African Americans 482 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 2: had so often turned out to be fraudulent in American history, 483 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: which is surely right, But he didn't say rip up 484 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: the premisery note. He said, the Bank of Justice must 485 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 2: honor the promissary note. And so I think that the 486 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 2: way to move beyond the identity trap is to be 487 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: very conscious and aware of the injustices in our society, 488 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 2: but to demand that we remedy to them and live 489 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 2: up to those universal values, rather than to say that forever, 490 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 2: how we treat each other should depend on the kind 491 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 2: of groups into which we're born. 492 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: You talk about the rise of social media and how 493 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: in some ways it accelerates the development of group identity 494 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: in a way that would probably not have occurred without 495 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: this kind of access to social media. 496 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. What I do in the first part of a 497 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: book is to chronicle where these ideas actually come from. 498 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: And what I do there is to present the thought 499 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: of thinkers like Michelle Foukor and Edward sat and guide 500 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: to Spivak, Derek Bell, and Kimberley Crenshaw, whom I have 501 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: profound disagreements, but who I've think are interesting and sophisticated 502 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 2: thinkers who help to explain the main theme of these 503 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: forms of politics today. What then go on in the 504 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 2: second part of a book is to say, all right, so, 505 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 2: how do these ideas go from being dominant in parts 506 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: of the academy but really very marginal to society as 507 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: a whole, to having so much influence, so much purchase 508 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 2: in mainstream institutions. And so social media is a key 509 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: part of that story. The first thing that happens is 510 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 2: not Facebook or Twitter, but a mostly forgotten platform called 511 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: tumblrm which attracts a lot of teenagers, a lot of 512 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: people in the early twenties who can experiment on the 513 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: platform of different identities. They can tag themselves in part 514 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: by identity labels and then find other people who share 515 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: the same identity, and that hugely expands the ways in 516 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: which you can self identify. And when you were in 517 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: high school, in the analog world, you could choose between 518 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: the few identities that people in your high school had. 519 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: So there's four or five different kind of choices now sudden, 520 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: because you needed to have a certain number of people 521 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: who construct that identity with you. Right now, you can 522 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: find twenty people somewhere in the world, somewhere in the 523 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: country that share with your identity and create a new 524 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: way of thinking about yourself. And that's what started to 525 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: happen on Tumblr. And then you need it to have 526 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: an ideology if it holds together these different tribes, if 527 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: everybody is there saying, hey, what really defines me? Is 528 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: that a new term but bubbled up on tumbler, I'm 529 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: a demisexual. When you need some way of people who 530 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: belong to this identity group to deal with people belong 531 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 2: to the other identity groups, and this is where you 532 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: get the set of ideas by deferring to each other 533 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: that I must never offend you, even inadvertently, that if 534 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: you make a claim on behalf of your group, then 535 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: I must refer to it without examining it critically, and 536 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: get all of these kind of norms but make up 537 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 2: the popularized version of these ideas. Emerging these ideas when 538 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: start to spread into a written form on new Internet 539 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: websites like fort catalog as a website called everyday Feminism 540 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: dot com that starts to turn what used to be 541 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 2: quite pandemic ideas into articles that can go viral on 542 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: the Internet, things like four folds for your yoga teacher 543 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: who thinks appropriation is fun, or six ways to respond 544 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 2: to sexist microaggressions in everyday conversations, or so your breastman 545 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: here have three reasons that could be sexist, right, So 546 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 2: you can see how it's sort of being packaged into 547 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: this BuzzFeed like form on the Internet. And then what 548 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: you get is social media taking over as a distribution mechanism. 549 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 2: So when something like vox were kind of originally technocratic 550 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: liberal center left publication gets founded in twenty thirteen, most 551 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: of its readers consume articles by going to a landing 552 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 2: page of a website vox dot com right and looking 553 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: at what's on offer. And so in that kind of 554 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: technological world, any one article needs to appeal to a 555 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 2: lot of potential readers. What happens starting in twenty five feteen, 556 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen is that most article views, most clicks come 557 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: through Facebook and Twitter. And in that world, it's fine 558 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: if you go to a website and most things are 559 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 2: boring to you. As long as each article travels through 560 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: social connections on social media networks that are based on identity, 561 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: they can get a lot of clicks. And so suddenly 562 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: these first person stories that really lean into experiences of injustice, 563 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: that really talk about those kinds of subnational identities, start 564 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: to attract way more readers, start to spread way more. 565 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: And this is a time when mainstream media is in 566 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: financial crisis. They have to reinvent by financial models. They 567 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: really want clicks, so they hire a bunch of writers 568 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: who are successfully doing this, and within ten years you 569 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: get really quite striking transformation of mainstream media leaning into 570 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: the popularized version of these ideas. 571 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: You make the point about how dramatic the changes with 572 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: the media, and the one that's struck me. You take 573 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: a look at the New York Times that the use 574 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: of the word racist increased by seven hundred percent in 575 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: the eight years between twenty eleven and twenty nineteen, and 576 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: the use of the word racist and the worship post 577 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: increased by one thousand percent. I mean, that's an extraordinary 578 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: cultural change in less than a decade. 579 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really interesting change. And I think part 580 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: of what's interesting is that this actually starts before Donald 581 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: Trump is elected. So then once Trump is elected, it's 582 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 2: sort of turbocharges those developments, and in part for understandable 583 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: reasons that people did feel threatened in various ways. But 584 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: you actually see the start of its transformation at the 585 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: beginning of the twenty tens, which I think is just 586 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: a really striking thing. And so as a result, when 587 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: you look back now at the Pew Tracking poll about 588 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 2: how Americans feel about the state of race relations, we 589 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: are at the worst place we've been to in something 590 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 2: like four decades since they began to answer to ask 591 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: a question. Now, I think that are many serious problems 592 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: today and west serious injustices today, and I would never 593 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: want to make light of them, but to think that 594 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: things have gotten so much worse today compared to forty 595 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: years ago. I think it's just a mistake about how 596 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 2: the country has changed. The same is true on issues 597 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 2: like gay rights. A lot of organizations in that space 598 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: claim that the marker today is homophobic, as homophobic as 599 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: it ever was. But you know, in the nineteen nineties, 600 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: Ellen de Generes had to leave her sitcom when she 601 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: publicly acknowledged having a girlfriend that would be unimaginable today. 602 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: So I think it's very important to recognize that we 603 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: can acknowledge injustices today position problems today without denying that progress. 604 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: And that's really where these two traditions fundamentally disagree. For 605 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: people like Derek Bell, we've never made progress. America, when 606 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: he passed away about two decades ago, according to him, 607 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: was as racist as it had been eighteen fifty or 608 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty. That racism might show itself differently, but it 609 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: is as persistent as it was in the past. For 610 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 2: many of the Sky Rights organization, America is as homophobic 611 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: today as it's been at any point in the past. 612 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 2: That then justifies the call to action to just reject 613 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: the Constitution, to reject the Bill of Rights, to reject 614 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, because if we haven't been able 615 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: to make any progress, then why should we trust that stuff? Right? 616 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: I think recognizing that we have made progress, and that 617 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: we've made that progress in good part because we've been 618 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 2: able to live up more and more fully to these 619 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: ideals that have been American history often been violated, is 620 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 2: a much much more promising way to understand our political moment, 621 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 2: and that then explains why we shouldn't be complacent. We 622 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 2: should always fight to live up to noble ideals that 623 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 2: the founded the market. We should recognize that we have 624 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: never fully done. So that is what we can tend 625 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 2: to talk about an ever more perfect union. 626 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: Right. 627 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: The lie that we've been unable to make progress and 628 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 2: therefore we should rip these institutions up is simply a mistake. 629 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: I noticed one of the things you pick up on. 630 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: I used to represent Coca Cola when I was a 631 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: Congressman from Georgia, and Coca Cola now has a Confronting 632 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: Racism course, and one of the slides says that employees 633 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: should quote try to be less white. Now I'm really curious. 634 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: Obviously I'm white, so maybe I'm hopeless, But what does 635 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: it mean to try to be less white. 636 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: Well, it's a ridiculous statement. Within the ideology, it does 637 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 2: mean something. I mean, one of the really striking things 638 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 2: that has been making the rounds is a sort of 639 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 2: workshop quote for hallmarks of white supremacy culture. Now, you 640 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 2: might think that the hallmarks of white supremacy culture is 641 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 2: devaluing black people, or not wanting to recognize but tremendous 642 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: contributions they've been to our country or something like that. 643 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: But I could recognize as the hallmark of white supremacy culture. 644 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,959 Speaker 2: What this paper actually characterizes as a form of white 645 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 2: supremacy is values like punctuality or values like the worship 646 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 2: of a written word. And that to me is straightforwardly racist. 647 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 2: It's not reverse racist. It's just racist. It is implying 648 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 2: falsely that people who are Latino or Asian or African 649 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: American are somehow less interested in or capable of being compunctual, 650 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 2: or that they are less interested in or capable of 651 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: loving books than white people. It is a complete travesty 652 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: of an idea. But I think that is what in 653 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: these extreme diversity trainings, when people say, you know, be 654 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: less white, they are talking about the values that they 655 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: falsely associated with white culture. 656 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: And it helps explain why there was a report this 657 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: week that in Baltimore forty percent of the high schools 658 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: have zero students who can do math, not one in 659 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: five high schools, because therefore math is white and why 660 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: would you have to learn something as factual as math. 661 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's various sort of worrying ptoglogical trend. For 662 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 2: one that I'm most concerned about, which thankfully was now 663 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 2: a little bit of organized pushback on, was the abandonment 664 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 2: of phonics. So at one point, the idea was that 665 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 2: a lot of books are not interesting to people from 666 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: womanority backgrounds because perhaps we don't reflect their experiences. They 667 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: come from less advantage backgrounds, and so we have less 668 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 2: sort of exposure to reading, all of which are real problems. 669 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: But the solution to this is not to teach reading, 670 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 2: not to teach how each letter makes a sound and 671 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 2: in combination may create words, and so that's how you 672 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: learn how to spell, and that's how you learn how 673 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: to decipher written texts. But rather you would sort of 674 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 2: look at words and interesting picture books and just learn 675 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: over time to sort of inture how those words work. 676 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: That has been an absolute disaster. There's very clear studies 677 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: which show how damaging this pedagogical trend has been. Ironically, 678 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: if you come from a very privileged background where perhaps 679 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 2: your parents can teach you to read a little bit, 680 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 2: or you've been surrounded by books for a long time, 681 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: or perhaps you're just a particularly smart kid, you can 682 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 2: learn to read in that way too. You'll be fine. 683 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: But precisely the kids that are disadvantage, precisely the kids 684 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 2: that actually need a teacher to help them read, other 685 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 2: ones that have been failed by this, and when you're 686 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 2: looking at how it can be, but there are these 687 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: schools where a huge percentage of children cannot read at 688 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 2: grade level, sometimes graduate high school without being able to 689 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 2: read with ease, and then obviously have follow up problems 690 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: because once you can't read, it's also hard to do math. 691 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 2: The adoption of these kinds of pedagogical trends are part 692 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 2: of a reason, and that's one of the ways in 693 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 2: which these fashionable ideas, even when they claim to want 694 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 2: to make the water a better place, can be a trap, 695 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: even for the people who fall into it. 696 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: Let me ask you one last thing, which you've written 697 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: a book expressing a real concern, it's called the people 698 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: versus democracy. Why our freedom is in danger? In how 699 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: to say that? Why do you think around the world 700 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: the concept of the rule of law and the concept 701 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: of a democratic society has decayed so suddenly and so dramatically. 702 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think the reasons for that, long term 703 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 2: it are structural. One thing that always strikes me is 704 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 2: that from nineteen thirty five to nineteen sixty, the living 705 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 2: standard of an average American doubled. From nineteen sixty to 706 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, it doubled again, and over the last 707 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 2: thirty or so years, nearly forty years, it's been relatively flat. 708 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 2: Economists debate whether it's gone up a little bit or art, 709 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 2: but the median American does not feel that they're doing 710 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: a lot better than their parents were, and they fear 711 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: that their kids are going to do worse, and so 712 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 2: that is really undermined trust in institutions for understandable reasons. 713 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 2: I think the right of social media has been important. 714 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 2: It has allowed demagogues to lie and to spread hatred 715 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: in a damaging way. I think the demographic transformations of 716 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 2: many Western democracies are part of the reason, in part 717 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 2: because there are people who feel threatened by their loss 718 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 2: of relative social standing that has come on hand to 719 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 2: hand with his demographic tansformations and the rights of women 720 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 2: and so on. I think a fourth reason is an 721 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: educational elite that is quite remote. I'm really struck by 722 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 2: the fact that in the United States now, the best 723 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 2: predict of how long you're going to live is whether 724 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 2: you have a BA degree. Right. There's so many basic 725 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 2: socioeconomic outcomes that correlate with education, and in the people 726 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 2: who run the most important institutions in society, they have 727 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 2: gone off whatever background we may be from at seventeen 728 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 2: or eighteen to a nice college campus, the kind of 729 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 2: college campus where I teach, Right, I'm talking about my 730 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: own part of the United States, whether just around other 731 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 2: people who are going to be part of that elite, 732 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 2: and they go and move to the same neighborhoods after 733 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 2: they graduate college, and by the time they have power 734 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 2: and influence in the country. This is very, very remote 735 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 2: from the experiences and the neighborhoods and the views of 736 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: ordinary Americans, and that gap, I think can easily be exploited. 737 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 2: But the danger you talk about is one that I 738 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 2: still worry about. We've seen these what polical scientists for 739 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,879 Speaker 2: Otalian populists. What populists can mean so many different things 740 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 2: in so many different contacts. But these politicians who do 741 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 2: not accept the rule of law, who claim that they 742 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 2: and they alone truly represent the people, that people who 743 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 2: disagree with them are somehow traitors, for somehow unpatriotic, gain power, 744 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 2: gain an influence. In many different countries around the world. 745 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 2: This is not purely a phenomenon of one part of 746 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 2: a political spectrum. You have left wingers like Ushaves in 747 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 2: Venezuela who have destroyed their democracies. You have right wingers 748 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 2: like Narandromody in India and Victor Auburn and Hungary who 749 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 2: have really undermined the democratic constitutions in their countries. And 750 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 2: my concern, I don't know whether you agree with me 751 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 2: on that or not, at to what extent you might 752 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 2: agree or disagree with me, is that there is also 753 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 2: now a part of the Republican Party in the form 754 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 2: of Donald Trump and his followers, who are dangerous to 755 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 2: our democratic institutions for the same reasons, not because of 756 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 2: the policies that they favor, not because of the people 757 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 2: who they might dislike, or the fact that verhetric might 758 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 2: sometimes be a little bit cross. That is all perfectly 759 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 2: fine in a democracy, but because they do not accept 760 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 2: that in a democracy, people will disagree, and that people 761 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 2: who criticize them, who disagree with them, who stand up 762 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 2: to some of the things they want to do, are 763 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 2: also loyal Americans who, in a system with jacks and balances, 764 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 2: deserve to be a part of a system. 765 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, we could do an entire additional podcast on that. 766 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 1: I could make a pretty good argument that the primary 767 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: institutional violators of the norm are much more the Justice 768 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: Department and the current system of oppression that in a 769 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: sense you describe here, I mean, instructing people that they 770 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: learn to be less white strikes me as pretty utilitarian. 771 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: But that's a different conversation and a different podcast. But 772 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: yosh I want to thank you for joining me. I 773 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: think it's been a great conversation. I think your new book, 774 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: The Identity Trap, A Story of Ideas and Power in 775 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: Our Times, is a really important book. I encourage all 776 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: of our listeners to get a copy, and I hope 777 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: you'll continue to look at this whole question of how 778 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: are we evolving and how can we ensure that freedom 779 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: and the rule of law survive that process and that 780 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: our ability to have a genuine dialogue like this continues 781 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: to be the norm and doesn't become rare. So thank 782 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: you very much for joining me. 783 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, really enjoynas. 784 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: Thank you to my yest Yosha Monk. You can get 785 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Identity Trap, 786 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: a Story of Ideas and power in Our Time on 787 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is 788 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: produced by Gingish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 789 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 790 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 791 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingrich three sixty. If you've 792 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you will go to Apple 793 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 794 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 795 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 796 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at gingishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 797 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.