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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's your long lost cousin Josh. And for

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Speaker 1: this week's select, I chose our two thousand and eighteen

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Speaker 1: episode on hoarding. This is one of those eye opening

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Speaker 1: topics for me because I only knew of hoarding through

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Speaker 1: pop culture, and those portrayals are typically accurate to an extent,

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Speaker 1: but the problem is they usually missed the profound distress

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Speaker 1: and sadness that hoarders feel about their disorder. So prepared

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Speaker 1: to have your empathy Kate put on for you with

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Speaker 1: this one, and enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know,

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's childs to have you,

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Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry over there, and here we are

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Speaker 1: doing Stuff you should Know about hoarding. Yeah, Jerry's over

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Speaker 1: there under a stack of pizza boxes of newspapers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but Jerry proudly displays them to anybody who comes into

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Speaker 1: the office and makes eye contact with her, which makes

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Speaker 1: her a collector of those things. A big difference. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't save your horder. She's a pizza box collector,

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Speaker 1: I got you. She likes those greasy after stains. Yes,

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Speaker 1: supposedly that prevents you from recycling pizza boxes. I think

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Speaker 1: we talked about it in one of our episodes before,

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Speaker 1: but I think that that's a p s A that

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Speaker 1: bears repeating. Yeah, I've never got a final answer on that,

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Speaker 1: so I throw mine in the recycling anyway. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that comes up the works or not. Is

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Speaker 1: there a spectrum or anything like that, or you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this one is just so obviously loaded with cheese um

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Speaker 1: that I I can't possibly recycle this. Well, mine are

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Speaker 1: always loaded because I specifically request that the pizza be

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Speaker 1: delivered face down in the box. Do you It's a

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Speaker 1: little weird, but I like it that way. It's a

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Speaker 1: way to do it for sure, upside down pizza. Actually,

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Speaker 1: you know what I should do is just tear the

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Speaker 1: box in in half and at least recycled the top.

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Speaker 1: That I think you may have just solved the real problem. Yeah, alright,

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Speaker 1: I think we do need to do a follow up

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Speaker 1: recycling episode because I would imagine it's probably advanced by

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Speaker 1: leaps and bounds since we last discussed it. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: here in my area of Atlanta, they quit taking glass

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Speaker 1: really a few months ago. Too heavy not enough payoff.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just yeah, and and or word

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Speaker 1: got out that they weren't even recycling it, so um.

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Speaker 1: Since then, they have set up places around Atlanta, one

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Speaker 1: specifically at the Edgewood Target Parking You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of stuff there, but in the Target parking lot

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Speaker 1: they have these huge glass recyclers there. And I meet

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Speaker 1: up with the fellow Whinos about once every two weeks.

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Speaker 1: We all shamefully toss in, you know, dozens of bottles

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Speaker 1: of empty wine, so much dead yellow tail. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we Now I don't drink that stuff, but we just

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Speaker 1: we It's nice. It's sort of like a wine meeting,

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Speaker 1: so much dead Paul Masson like a wine clatch. I'm like, God,

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Speaker 1: what are you throwing away there? How was that right? Really?

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Speaker 1: Have you gotten any recommendations from those chance encounters? It's

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Speaker 1: literally happened where we're you know, I would meet a

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Speaker 1: fellow why no, we're thrown away tons of bottles, And

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Speaker 1: then we decide to own our shame and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this one was pretty good, by the way, and start

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Speaker 1: up a conversation and then I get maced, Yeah you

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Speaker 1: take you take the bottle and go huh night train.

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Speaker 1: Haven't heard of this one? Right? Okay, that is try

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Speaker 1: and I like the handy grip of the bottle. I

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Speaker 1: never tried night train. Did you have that, dude? It's

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Speaker 1: it's a nightmare, is what it is. Yeah. I would

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Speaker 1: drink the like you don't even sober up before you

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Speaker 1: get a crushing headache from it. Right, it comes with

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Speaker 1: a headache, that's what says. Um. What would I drink? Um?

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Speaker 1: Mad dog mhm. Which you know there's a reason they

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Speaker 1: are sold right next to each other. Yeah, can you

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Speaker 1: even call those wine? No, it's not wine. It's wine

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Speaker 1: like Prudo gets wine like malt liquor is beer. It's related,

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Speaker 1: but it's drinking college. Sure. Remember the Nicky's big mouths. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and cold forty five came in like gigantic like bottles.

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Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest attractions of it, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was expensive, man, that was that was our jam

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Speaker 1: for a little while. I never got into this, I

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Then't they have like the

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Speaker 1: like a question or a trivia thing or something on

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Speaker 1: the underside of it, the bottle, the lid. I don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: there were the little green hand grenade bottles, little barrels,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I don't know which came first or after

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Speaker 1: it was either. I guess they switched to just the

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Speaker 1: regular like uh, Coca Cola style twist off cap metal

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Speaker 1: twist off, and I think they might. I think they

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Speaker 1: did have something underneath it. Act there was something under there.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was like a poker game or a card

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Speaker 1: game or you just liver disease. But before that then

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Speaker 1: I think they had these really unique poll tabs because

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Speaker 1: it was a big fat mouth, Mickey's. That's why they

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Speaker 1: called it that Mickey's big mouth. So they had to

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Speaker 1: have a very unique um bottle cap poll cap that

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Speaker 1: was just sort of interesting. Back in the day, man,

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Speaker 1: back in the day when I was I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: wrap now. And we're now refined with our beverage consumption,

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah we are. I only drink Call forty five

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Speaker 1: out of a chilled glass. Now. I got a nice

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Speaker 1: whiskey bar set up at home that's separate from the

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Speaker 1: regular bar, Oh wow, with just like rise and Bourbons

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Speaker 1: and Scotches and Irish, and it's very little additional. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I've gotten out to where I will put in little

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Speaker 1: drops of little tinctures and shrubs and things. Oh yeah, occasionally,

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Speaker 1: shrubs are great. I made my own ones and it's

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Speaker 1: actually worth the effort. Yeah. My buddy Eddie, you know Eddie,

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Speaker 1: he makes his own. He actually does it in the

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Speaker 1: in the bottle, but he will he'll do like a

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Speaker 1: cherry bourbon or an apple like confused bourbon. Yeah. Those

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Speaker 1: shrubs though, man, uh, it's actually not very hard and

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Speaker 1: they last forever because what you're doing is basically I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's fermenting or pickling or something, but

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Speaker 1: you're doing something to the fruit that you're mascerating with

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Speaker 1: the sugar, and it just lasts forever. It's just such

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Speaker 1: a nice little tangy pop. It's like kimchi. You gotta

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Speaker 1: bury it in your yard for kind of. It's close

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Speaker 1: to that, Actually it's not. It's like the Yankee version

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Speaker 1: of kim chi, but with fruit and you put it

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Speaker 1: in your booze. Well, this is all very hoardy, like, well,

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Speaker 1: hold on, even before we get into hoarding, we still

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Speaker 1: have another tangent to go on. Oh our earl buds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, let's let's announce it, okay, So Caroline Irvin

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Speaker 1: and Kristen Conger seriously, Well, I know it was it

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Speaker 1: was Conger, but she's since gotten married to she took

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Speaker 1: her husband's last name, remember, No, of course, Kristin Conger. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. If something tells me Conger did not

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Speaker 1: take his last name, right, right, I can see that

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Speaker 1: because then I would no longer be able to call

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Speaker 1: her Congs, which I know she loved. That's true, and

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Speaker 1: she was probably there the SoC Security administrates and thinking

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Speaker 1: I can't do this. What about Chuck? She thought of

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Speaker 1: that at any rate. Caroline and Kristen the former host

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Speaker 1: of UM Stuff Mom Never Told You, which is now

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Speaker 1: hosted by our pals um Emily and Bridget. That's right,

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Speaker 1: So Kristen and Caroline went off on their own and

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Speaker 1: they have now started a new podcast and this is

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Speaker 1: the this is the grand announcement here on stuff you

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Speaker 1: should know. That's right. It's called Unladylike and uh I

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Speaker 1: have I've heard the trailer, so it sounds great and

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Speaker 1: anything they're gonna do is gonna be great. They're just

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Speaker 1: they're pros. They really like. Uh. I know, Stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never Told You was started with Molly and Conger, but

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Speaker 1: when Caroline came along, it really just found its true voice.

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Speaker 1: No offense, Molly, and um, she just trashed her home office. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's just a great show and Unladylike is going to

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Speaker 1: be awesome and a and I believe it's got a

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Speaker 1: bit of a different flavor with interviews and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: but it is definitely going to be dealing with uh,

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Speaker 1: feminism and women's issues and oh yeah, advocacy and their

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Speaker 1: their logo is great. It's a big middle finger, which

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Speaker 1: is just so them. Yep. So they have a site up,

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Speaker 1: but I think you can get their podcast anywhere you

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Speaker 1: get podcasts, that's kind of how it works. But they

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Speaker 1: have a site as well called un lady Like dot

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Speaker 1: ceo super British, not dot com dot ceo. Okay, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So the best of luck, ladies. I'm sure it'll be great.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you're always on our minds and in our

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Speaker 1: hearts about that. It's so nice of you. Good luck

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Speaker 1: Caroline and Kristen. It's gonna be great. Now, can we hoard? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Long last, Oh let's take a commercial break show. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine Mollywood tresh her home office again? So we're

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Speaker 1: talking hoarding today, believe it or not, everybody UM and I.

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Speaker 1: Basically everyone is fairly well aware of hoarding thanks to

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Speaker 1: a couple of high profile um reality TV shows about

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Speaker 1: hoarders and hoarding UM and then there have also been

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Speaker 1: appearances of hoarders in literature. So even before it kind

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Speaker 1: of became like part of the cultural awareness, it was

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Speaker 1: also already kind of there, like everybody thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's some guy out there who has a house full

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Speaker 1: of something that he picked up on the side of

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Speaker 1: the road, and his it's just accumulated and he can

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Speaker 1: barely get around his house. Like that was there before.

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Speaker 1: But thanks to those TV shows, which is actually which

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Speaker 1: actually sprung out of the first real research on hoarding

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Speaker 1: as its own disorder d UM from the early nineteen

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Speaker 1: nineties by a Smith College psychology professor named David o'frost

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Speaker 1: and then two of his students, Rachel Gross and Tamarra

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Speaker 1: hardel Um. Those three people together actually form the basis

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Speaker 1: of our knowledge about hoarding the disorder. They took it

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Speaker 1: out of the cultural reference, they took it out of

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Speaker 1: the realm of Freud and and they got it ultimately

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Speaker 1: all the way up into the d s M. Five

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Speaker 1: and two thousand thirteen, which is about the best you

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Speaker 1: can hope for is an undergrad psychology student. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: get your d S M tattoo M to two yep uh.

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Speaker 1: And I believe those shows. One was called Hoarders and

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Speaker 1: one was called Jerry's Pizza Box Collection. No, Jerry's a collector.

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Speaker 1: Well it was Jerry's Pizza Box Collection, Colin, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a hoarder, right. It was a little little mouthie, little wordy.

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Speaker 1: The log line was, if you're looking for a show

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Speaker 1: about a hoarder, keep looking. But if you like pizza

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Speaker 1: boxes and he doesn't speak eight seven central, be very

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Speaker 1: David lynche In. Just this mute woman walking around pizza boxes, blackout,

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Speaker 1: bar over most of her face everywhere. She would be great. Um,

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Speaker 1: all right, so we'll go ahead and get it going

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Speaker 1: with a stat here. Back in the day, I was statman,

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Speaker 1: remember that, of course, So I'm gonna reprise that role. Okay,

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Speaker 1: do you have a cape still? Oh yeah, that's on

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Speaker 1: see Oh yeah, I see it's probably I couldn't see

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Speaker 1: you weren't turned the right way. Uh well it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a thin cape for broadfellaw uh so estimates No

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Speaker 1: one really knows, because, like you said, it's very recently

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Speaker 1: that it's been recognized as its own disease um and

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Speaker 1: not a symptom of another thing, even though it is,

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Speaker 1: as we will see later, very much co morbid with

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Speaker 1: other other issues and mental illnesses. But despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that we don't know a ton about the stats, there

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Speaker 1: are estimates to say anywhere from point four percent two

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Speaker 1: as many as five that's high. Is this humans or humans? Americans? Humans?

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Speaker 1: Ah yeah, I think the general population, which that would

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Speaker 1: make its prevalence higher than schizophrenia. Wow. Yeah, which I

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Speaker 1: actually kind of believe if I stop and think about it. Well,

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Speaker 1: the thing is, though you don't this is and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about all this stuff, but it's not

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Speaker 1: often the kind of thing that presents itself out in

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Speaker 1: public because these people are hiding in their houses full

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Speaker 1: of stuff. No. No. And one of the things one

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Speaker 1: of the early misconceptions about hoarders that we'll see is

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Speaker 1: that it was mostly older people who were hoarding. But um,

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Speaker 1: it turns out that they're the ones who get thrust

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Speaker 1: into the limelight because it's a progressive chronic disease r exactly.

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Speaker 1: So by the time the news media becomes aware of

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Speaker 1: this and drags these pour people out into the lime. Lie. Um,

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Speaker 1: their their hoard has gotten very big and they have aged.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we initially thought that just older people

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Speaker 1: were hoarders. It turns out it actually starts far earlier

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Speaker 1: in life. Typically. Yeah, like I show about a twelve

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Speaker 1: year old with one corner of their room too messy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just looking at it like this is gonna be huge

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Speaker 1: one day. And we're joking here, but this is a

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Speaker 1: serious mental illness. But we we joke about all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things. So I don't want anyone to get upset

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Speaker 1: about things like that. No, No, if you're new to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, go listen to the comas episode. That'll set

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Speaker 1: things straight. All right. So some of the symptoms of

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Speaker 1: hoarding um, and we're we're going to get into also

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Speaker 1: in a bit to the I Guess myths. And separating

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Speaker 1: those two is really important because it's very easy for

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Speaker 1: someone to very dismissively say, oh, they're a hoarder because

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Speaker 1: they have a lot of stuff. Um. And my family,

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Speaker 1: my in laws, well, let me let Steve off the hook.

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Speaker 1: Specifically my mother in law, my grandmother in law, Mary,

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Speaker 1: the eldest general of the stuff you should know Army

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Speaker 1: and uh my aunt Sue, Sharon two and Mary. They

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Speaker 1: have a lot of stuff and we call it the

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Speaker 1: disease sort of as a joke, um, but they're actually well,

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Speaker 1: they're not hoarders at all, but they got a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff they have a hard time throwing away, you know,

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Speaker 1: the stuff that they had that they think someone in

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Speaker 1: the family might want. But I think that stuff that's

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Speaker 1: that's pretty typical. A lot of people are like that,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people have a basement room with

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Speaker 1: a lot of junk in it out of being too

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Speaker 1: busy or lazy, or maybe just a bit of the

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Speaker 1: disease where you just like I can't bear to part

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Speaker 1: with it even though I really should. But that is

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Speaker 1: not hoarding. Well, so my question would be, then have

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Speaker 1: you ever seen them and do you feel like they

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Speaker 1: have the ability to clear out like the attic or

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Speaker 1: donate some of the stuff like they can't they have

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Speaker 1: the ability to part with the stuff. There have been

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Speaker 1: pushes at various times, like when they're moving and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. Of course it's a good time to do that. Um,

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Speaker 1: it is always a bit of a painful experience. But

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Speaker 1: I think, like I said, everyone's got a little not everyone.

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Speaker 1: Some people are so unsentimental that they'll just back the

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Speaker 1: dumpster up and just empty their house into it and

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Speaker 1: say I'll get a new drunk But um, it's a

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Speaker 1: good way to move, Yeah, exactly, but they it is

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a hard time. And very famously either, Um, Charlie,

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Speaker 1: there Emily's grandpa who who left us on our wedding day. Um,

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Speaker 1: he famously passed away with like you know, buckets have bent,

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Speaker 1: rusty nails. But he was not a hoarder. He was

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Speaker 1: legitimately one of these guys. He was like, I can

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Speaker 1: straighten these and reuse them one day. And he believed

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Speaker 1: in the value of just not throwing everything away, which

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Speaker 1: is great. So let me ask you this though he

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Speaker 1: would he would say kind of with pride, like look

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Speaker 1: at all these awesome nails that I'm not wasting you chump, No,

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Speaker 1: not at all. It was just um, was he ashamed

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Speaker 1: of his bucket of nails? No, he would. He would

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Speaker 1: occasionally get out a nail and straighten it and use it,

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Speaker 1: and it was just everyone in the family knew, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, Charlie, he did grow up in the Great

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Speaker 1: Depression and as we will see. That is one of

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Speaker 1: the myths that, oh, all these people just grow up

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Speaker 1: in the depression, so they value things more. That is

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Speaker 1: not the case. There's no tie to that. But he

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Speaker 1: is one of those gentlemen who grow up in the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression, and and I love that attitude. We're in

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Speaker 1: such a disposable frame of mind. I think that they

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Speaker 1: the depression thing has kind of come back for the

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Speaker 1: generation behind us, where they value things a bit more. Good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, because the posibility of products and just everything.

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Speaker 1: Just pulling a dump strip to your back door and

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Speaker 1: pushing your stuff out as a means of moving. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're like, I'll just that thing didn't work. Well, I

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Speaker 1: could probably get repaired, but screw it. I'll get another one.

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Speaker 1: It's only twenty bucks. Things like that, Like it kind

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Speaker 1: of drives me nuts. So I'm oh, wait, my phone

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Speaker 1: has has a new version of my phone has just

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Speaker 1: come out. So now the company that made my phone

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Speaker 1: is remotely slowing my phone down, so I have to

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Speaker 1: throw it away and go buy another one. That's definitely

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Speaker 1: part of the problem as well. You know, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I can totally see Grandpa Charlie saying everybody gather around

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Speaker 1: getting a nail out of his rusty nail buckets, straining

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Speaker 1: it and just driving it right through the webbing of

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Speaker 1: his hand as a party trick. That's what I thought

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Speaker 1: of when when you said, yeah, every once in a a

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Speaker 1: while he get a nail out and straighten it and

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Speaker 1: use it. That's what I would think. You know, what

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Speaker 1: were the people that he's a beenhead? People that would

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Speaker 1: drive the nail through there? Yeah, the blockhead That's what

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Speaker 1: it was. Blockheads. Yeah. I can't believe you did a

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Speaker 1: whole podcast on that. That shows a good one too.

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Speaker 1: Um alright, So number one on the symptoms though, uh

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Speaker 1: is you literally have an inability two to get rid

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Speaker 1: of things and to stop acquiring things. So you may

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Speaker 1: if you go into a hoarder's home, you may go

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Speaker 1: into their closet and see a wrack of clothes with

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Speaker 1: tags on them because they're like, oh, just this is

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Speaker 1: on sale. It's such a good deal. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I just have to get it and then it's unworn

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Speaker 1: a decade later. Yeah. So, so the early researchers David

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Speaker 1: Frosten is two students um Tamra Hartle and Rachel Gross.

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Speaker 1: They initially I think it was specifically Rachel Gross and

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Speaker 1: David Frost. Sorry, but they that first study that they

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Speaker 1: did on hoarders, they assumed that, um, it would be

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Speaker 1: all just junk like stuff nobody could possibly want, and

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Speaker 1: they were really surprised when they toured some of their

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Speaker 1: their study participants homes and found like stuff still in

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Speaker 1: the package, like clothes, perfectly fine clothes that had never

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Speaker 1: been worn, but piles up to the ceiling that we're

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Speaker 1: now had now taken over the kitchen, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. That's the difference between being like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is actually a pretty good deal, I could use this

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Speaker 1: someday and hoarding. They they basically won't pass up a bargain.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the ways that they might acquire something.

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Speaker 1: My mom has a little bit of that, you mean.

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Speaker 1: I went through an open house once and I've never

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Speaker 1: seen more clothing owned not just by one person, by

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Speaker 1: several families put together. But it was just one lady's clothes,

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Speaker 1: and like they had built on like an addition to

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Speaker 1: their attic and their garage top and that was just

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Speaker 1: filled with clothes more close than anyone could possibly wear.

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Speaker 1: And we noticed that like some of them still had

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Speaker 1: the tags on. Were like, God, this lady has so

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Speaker 1: many clothes. Now, looking back after researching this, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: she definitely had a touch of the hoarders disorder. I

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Speaker 1: guess she had a little bit of the hordes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it didn't spill out into the rest of her house,

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Speaker 1: so either she it was just a touch of it,

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Speaker 1: or her family was keeping it in check. But there

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Speaker 1: was definitely you you wouldn't believe me if I if

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Speaker 1: I told you how many just sweaters and shirts and

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Speaker 1: dresses this lady had. Give me a number, how many sweaters? Sweaters?

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Speaker 1: I know you're one of your superpowers of sweater guestimating right,

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Speaker 1: sweaters and chili beans. I would say, just from what

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Speaker 1: we saw, she easily had two hundreds something sweaters easily.

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Speaker 1: And those were just the sweaters. Man, that's not including

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Speaker 1: like tops, blouses, dresses. She had so many clothes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my friend Ryan, I won't say his last name, he uh,

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Speaker 1: his dad very famously had a h and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you know what I asked him last time I saw him,

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Speaker 1: and I can't remember the answer now, but at one

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Speaker 1: point his dad had like warehouses with stuff because he's

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Speaker 1: like a dream hoarder. Yeah, but I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it was hoarding either, because as you will see there

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Speaker 1: as we go on, there are very specific definitions, and

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Speaker 1: just because you want warehouses full of stuff doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean you're a hoarder, you know. Yeah, what was his stuff?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, huh. I'll find out and follow up.

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Speaker 1: But getting back to the inability to stop acquiring, one

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Speaker 1: of the key points about not getting rid of stuff

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Speaker 1: is they're holding onto things with no value at all,

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Speaker 1: like even sentimental value. Like when you have stacks and

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Speaker 1: stacks of newspapers and magazines for for decades and decades.

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Speaker 1: Those don't hold sentiment about sentimental value, any monetary value

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Speaker 1: unless you happen to have like the moon landing stuff

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Speaker 1: in there or something. Um, you know, it's just it's

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Speaker 1: like literally it's junk, right, it can be. It can

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Speaker 1: also be stuff that like is actually useful and somebody

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Speaker 1: would want this unopened, unworn dress or something like that. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it can go either way. But the point is

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Speaker 1: they can't stop acquiring stuff. They can't help themselves. That's

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Speaker 1: that's part one, Part two, And these things are part

385
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Speaker 1: and parcel with one another is they can't bear to

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Speaker 1: give any of it up, like you said, even if

387
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 1: it's totally useless, even if it doesn't have any actual,

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Speaker 1: real emotional value. But that is a big one that

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Speaker 1: a lot of them point to, is like they say, well, no,

390
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: this means a lot to me or um. Another another

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00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: explanation or another rationalization among hoarders is that like they're

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Speaker 1: they're they're just kind of stockpiling. They might need all

393
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Speaker 1: these clothes one day, the event that never happens, right exactly,

394
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Speaker 1: and um. The other one I think is that they

395
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Speaker 1: use it as a reminder. Apparently there's a um there's

396
00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: a correlation between faulty recall or um inaccurate memory or

397
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Speaker 1: a lack of trust in one's own memory and hoarding.

398
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Speaker 1: And so some hoarders will say, well, I keep this

399
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: to remind me that I have to do this in

400
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Speaker 1: the future, remind me to get in touch with this person.

401
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 1: So they imbue importance into all these objects that from

402
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 1: the outside are junk. And apparently the stuff that they

403
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: imbue these objects with is just rationalization. It's necessarily really

404
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: valuable in the way that they feel like it is

405
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: to them totally. Another symptom is that and this one

406
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious about we should talk about it

407
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: is that is the stuff is disorganized and very disorganized. Um, However,

408
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: I would think that you could be a hoarder and

409
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: also be very and maybe be anal retentive and have

410
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: everything organized. But does that immediately disqualify you? From what

411
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: I understand it does. Yeah, you can have a lot

412
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: of stuff and even very odd stuff, and if you

413
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: or organize it, that's a huge symptom of hoarding that

414
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: you're not. That's the a box is not being checked

415
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: and would probably preclude you from a diagnosis of hoarding

416
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: because they think that it has to do with your

417
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 1: ability and the brain to make decisions. It's supposedly stems

418
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: from perfectionism, which we'll talk about. But this this inability

419
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Speaker 1: to make decisions about you know, what to keep and

420
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: what to throw away and being so paralyzed by it

421
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Speaker 1: that you just don't make the decision at all, and

422
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: all this stuff accumulates. That also extends to organizing and sorting.

423
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: You can't make the decision about what you go where

424
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: or what goes with what. You just can't just you

425
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: can't make decisions when it comes to your material possessions.

426
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,959
Speaker 1: That's a huge hallmark of and I think a cornerstone

427
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: of hoarding. The diagnosis. I'm gonna take issue with that

428
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: one officially then on the record, Like you could had

429
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: literally have every single symptom, and you just might be like, no,

430
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: all the newspapers go here, and all this stuff goes here,

431
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: and it's literally caving in on me, and I can't

432
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,239
Speaker 1: get rid of any of it, and I'm ashamed of it,

433
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: and I have no quality of life. Um, but I'm

434
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: anal retentive. Like, so I'm officially taking issue. No one

435
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: cares well you. I mean, you make you paint a

436
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: pretty good picture in that. In that sense, I think

437
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: if you if you have stuff organized, it's probably not

438
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 1: having it's probably not taking over your life, maybe financially,

439
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: maybe time wise, but like you could still have people over. Um,

440
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: your husband or wife isn't leaving you as a result,

441
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: your kids aren't ashamed to bring friends over to play.

442
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: Who knows, but yeah, I don't think from what I

443
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: understand tho, as far as the psychological community is concerned,

444
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: if you can organize, you're probably not a hoarder. I

445
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: think all those things you just mentioned could still happen

446
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: if you're organized. Yeah, and this is just my dumb opinion.

447
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: It's it's possible. Though. I might sort of show called

448
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: Chuckstum Opinions just to follow up each week to this. Yeah,

449
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: I get it all out. Uh number three did you

450
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: get a little Josh saying Number three is the hoarder

451
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: feels ashamed? And we talked a little bit about this

452
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: here and there, but that is definitely one of them.

453
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: It's not like you walk into a hoarder's house and

454
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: they're like, have you seen my collection of dead goldfish

455
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: floating in bowls? Um, Although that'd be a weird thing.

456
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: Although animal hoarding will get to this definitely thing that's

457
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: like trapesing along the line of performance are right, But

458
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: this is the thing is you feel ashamed and that

459
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: can feed the beast. So you gather all this stuff,

460
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: you accumulate it, you feel really guilty about it. And

461
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: then one of the things that hoarders do is it

462
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: makes them feel better to collect the stuff, so then

463
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: you start hoarding more. And they and the grabster wrote

464
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: this one right, So the grabstre is said, it's you know,

465
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: it's really not unlike an alcoholic drink, you get ashamed.

466
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: Do you feel those feelings of shame, so you drink

467
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 1: to sort of feel better or forget right. So like

468
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: alcohol is to an alcoholic or um like somebody who

469
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: eats for comfort. These these people acquire stuff for comfort

470
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: or like their material possessions are like food to somebody

471
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: who eats um as comfort. Right, Yeah, and but they

472
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: do feel ashamed of the whole thing, Like that's a

473
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: huge thing. And that's also, like I was saying, what

474
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: differentiates them from collectors. Even if you have a collection

475
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: of some really weird stuff, if you, you know, want

476
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: to show it off to people and you really value it,

477
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: you you're a collector. If you are ashamed of your collection,

478
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: your hoard um, and you don't want people to see it,

479
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: and you know that it's weird, but you just can't

480
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: do anything about it, that's a symptom of hoarding. That's

481
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: one of the reasons also why it makes it such

482
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: a terrible mental disorder, because the people who are hoarders,

483
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: they're not they're not like off their rocker or something

484
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: like that. They're not mentally impaired, they're not like out

485
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: of touch with reality. They they are they have enough

486
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: perspective to feel shame about the state that their life

487
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: is in because of these material possessions that they can't

488
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: get rid of and can't stop accumulating. They can't do

489
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: anything about it, and that's what makes it just such

490
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: a sad disorders. They're aware of this and then feel

491
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: shame as a result. Yeah, they're incapable of change. Well,

492
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: I think that. I don't know if incapable is the

493
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: right word. But with the right help, they're capable. But

494
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: I think on their own they're generally incapable. Yes, well

495
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: that's what I mean. I'm not saying. Do you seek

496
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: treatment and you still can't stop that happens to uh.

497
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: And then finally, another symptom is that you are it

498
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: is really impacting your life. So um. You may have

499
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: rooms in your house that you can't even use anymore,

500
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: Like I can't take a bath because that's where I

501
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: keep the backing peanuts, or I can't use the stove

502
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: because it has seven microwaves that I bought that are

503
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: still in boxes stacked on it. Um. And you will

504
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: a lot of times they will, like like a snow plow,

505
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: just dig a path through their home just so they

506
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: can get around where they can get around. Yeah, apparently

507
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: among hoarders or among psychologists who study hoarding, it's called

508
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: they call them goat paths yea. And they can be

509
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: dangerous too. Hoarders have been known to have died sure

510
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: from there they walking along their goat paths in this

511
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: stuff on either side, just coming down on top of

512
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: them and pinning them and suffocating them. Yeah, and this

513
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: and this is the point to where you talked about

514
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: where uh they impacting your life. They don't get out much,

515
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: maybe because they don't want to leave their stuffcause they're

516
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: afraid of family member might come over and and take

517
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: things they are hold up. They don't have anyone over, uh,

518
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: because of the shame. So it's just, um they are.

519
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: They're literally trapped by their things, yeah, figuratively and and literally.

520
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: And they also um their Their houses will also very

521
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: frequently be in disrepair, not just from the the collections

522
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: of stuff taking over rooms and just totally changing their meaning,

523
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: but also like if you have a hot water heater

524
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: and it breaks, you're not gonna let some repair man

525
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: come over. You don't know him. You know, he might

526
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: touch your stuff, he might take something, or you feel

527
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: so much shame that you just won't even invite a

528
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: stranger to come in and and and fix your hot

529
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: water heater, so they'll just live without hot water forever. Um.

530
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: They may also it's it's super sad man, it will

531
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: like because of documentary television, because the reality television. I

532
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: think horders have kind of gotten reputation as people are like,

533
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: go look at those freaks, you know. Um, But if

534
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: you really start to dig into it, and I'm sure

535
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: some of these was do this from time to time too,

536
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: it is an extremely sad condition. It just makes you

537
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: want to help them when you come across him, you know.

538
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: And then one other thing is they're also very frequently

539
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: in debt. Say it gives the example of, um, if

540
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,479
Speaker 1: their kitchen is just totally covered and stuff and they

541
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: can't get to the oven any longer, they have to

542
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: order take out, which is much more expensive than grocery shopping.

543
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: So their finances are very likely impacted by the their

544
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: hoarding behavior. Good point. Should we take a break, Yeah,

545
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: all right, let's do it, and we'll come back and

546
00:31:36,080 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: talk about some of the myths right after this. All right,

547
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: So we talked about some of the truths UM. And

548
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 1: some of the myths are as follows. And you mentioned, um,

549
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: well you mentioned the first one that it affects only

550
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: older people. UM. Another one is the hoarders are are lazy,

551
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: and that is just not true. UM. They in fact,

552
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: they may be very busy in there with while they

553
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: may not be organizing, they may be moving things around

554
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: and obsessing about it and or you know, they also

555
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: might be on the recliner just hoping they don't get

556
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: caved in on. But the stuff point is, stuff isn't

557
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: there because they're lazy. It's a mental illness. That's a

558
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: big one. UM. Another another early idea about hoarders is

559
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: that the reason they hoard is be because they had

560
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: some experience previously in their lives where they came face

561
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: to face with deprivation or scarcity. And so now, yeah,

562
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: the Great Depression, or their dad lost his job when

563
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: they were a kid, and like their family really went

564
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: through a hard time. So now as a as a UM,

565
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 1: in response to that experience, they're just trying to get

566
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: their hands on everything they can and they don't want

567
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: to throw anything away. Apparently, that is absolutely not the

568
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: case that that the UM science doesn't bear that out

569
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: at all, and then they do think that they are

570
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: connected to some sort of difficult event previous in life,

571
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with deprivation

572
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: UM at any point like they they may they may

573
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: have been wealthy. I read it and Nautilus, I think

574
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: a Nautilus article on hoarding, and they profiled this guy

575
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: who was quite well off and he hoarded UM and

576
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: I don't think he had ever gone through any financial hardship,

577
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: and that's apparently par for the course. Well, one of

578
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,479
Speaker 1: the things that says one of the traumas could be

579
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: excessive discipline, which I thought was interesting because Freud, and

580
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: I know he said it's been mentioned. It's not a

581
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: new thing, like it's been in everything from Dante's Inferno

582
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: to Silas Marner in eight sixty one, UH, and Freud

583
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: talked about it uh in his day. But here's the

584
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: thing is, everyone says Freud was way off UM, but

585
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: he thought it could be as a result of overly

586
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: harsh toilet training, which I thought was interesting because while

587
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: that is not true, if it came from excessive discipline,

588
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: and you were excessively disciplined while toilet training, you know,

589
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't that far off. Yeah, you're right, he

590
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: probably wasn't. Like I said before, the guy was one

591
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: of the history's great thinkers. It's just you shouldn't use

592
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 1: the phrase anal character when you're describing what the problem

593
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: was with hoarding, which he did. He did, But you

594
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: make a really good point actually that he he Maybe

595
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: he wasn't that far off. But if it is discipline,

596
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: overly harsh discipline and adolescence, I think that's a big one. UM.

597
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: I think the loss of a significant other, of a

598
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: close family member, UM, some sort of loss of UM

599
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: love is it can trigger hoarding behavior, and some people

600
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: has been known to bring bring the disorder on as well.

601
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: I can see that like I lost that thing, but

602
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: I can keep all this like that I can control, right,

603
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: And that also would explain why they tend to imbue

604
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: emotional attachment into their possessions, you know, like these things

605
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: are these things equal love to me, and now I

606
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: can hang on to them and they're never going to

607
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: leave me. Yeah, I'm telling you it's a very sad disorder.

608
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: What another myth is that it's a symptom of o

609
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: c D obsessive compulsive disorder. For many many many years

610
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: were just now starting to understand more about it. But

611
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: for many years they thought it was either just straight

612
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: up was O c D or was just an offshoot

613
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: of it. Um, But like you said, with the D

614
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: s M, it is its own distinct disease, but it

615
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: can be co morbid with O c D and other

616
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: things like anxiety. So it's UM, I see why people

617
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: get that confused. Yeah, you know, there's some study took

618
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: away the criteria for UM, took away the hoarding criteria

619
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: from O c D, right, So it just gave these

620
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: people a checklist to determine whether they had O c

621
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: D or not, but took hoarding out of the equation,

622
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: and hoarders tended to to not qualify for O c

623
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: D only like six percent of them do or something

624
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: like that. So it's connected in some cases, but definitely

625
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: not in all cases. And it's certainly not just an

626
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: offshoot of O c D itself, like you're saying, right, Uh.

627
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: And then finally, and of course, because this is a

628
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: a disease, and um, just because you finally get a

629
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: family member in there against all a lots to clean

630
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: everything out of there, that does not cure you of anything.

631
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: No I saw that. It just says, first of all,

632
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: what a horrible experience that would be for the poor hoard.

633
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: The county comes in or some family members come in

634
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: with some tough love and just clear all your stuff out.

635
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: So that's number one. But number two apparently they say, okay,

636
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: well I've got a lot of space to fill. Now

637
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 1: I better get to work. Like that's the result of it. Supposedly,

638
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: so it's a chronic disease, chronic condition, and supposedly recurrence

639
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: of this is a hundred percent in all cases without treatment. Yeah,

640
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: the grabstre emailed this woman named Lisa Hale co Um sorry,

641
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: founding director of the Kansas City Center for Anxiety Treatment

642
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: and also a junct associate professor at University of Missouri,

643
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: Kansas City. So fighting hay seeds the stacks seeds. I

644
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: think Haysey didn't that a derogatory name for Kanson. It

645
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: depends on whether they own it or not. You know,

646
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: okay um, I'm sure we'll hear. But yeah, she she

647
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: said that it approaches like that is that is straight

648
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: up proof that that cleaning things out and while the

649
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: family member, well, a county just says there directive but

650
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: while a family member might think, oh, I've helped them, Um,

651
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: you you really haven't. If that was your solve, No,

652
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: you you're probably the Other part of it, too, is

653
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: if you come in there all tough love and you

654
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: need to get your act together and you're just being lazy,

655
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? And clean their stuff out for them?

656
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: First of all, that's basically abuse. I don't even know

657
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 1: if you need to qualify with basically. I think that's

658
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: abuse of a mentally ill person. But secondly, um, all

659
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: you're doing is driving that behaved your That's a very

660
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: stressful event, and the the um the way they deal

661
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: with stress is through hoarding behavior. So all it's going

662
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: to do is just turn the notch up on the

663
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: hoarding that they're doing anyway, and you can probably say

664
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: goodbye to ever seeing them again after that too. Man,

665
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: what a terrible situation. Apparently we'll talk about, you know,

666
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: treatment in a minute, but one of the key factors

667
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 1: and treatment is that the family and friends and loved

668
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: ones of the person who's hoarding and now undergoing treatment,

669
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: they have to go through therapy themselves. Because it's I'm

670
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: sure quite easy to look at this with disgust, horror,

671
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: UM anger, Like, what is wrong with you? Like, I

672
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: know that that's a natural reaction, but you have you

673
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: can't follow through on that. You have to approach it

674
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: from a place of understanding or else all you're going

675
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: to do is trigger the hoarding behavior even further. Yeah,

676
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: for sure if you go in their guns, blaze in

677
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: with your broom and your and your dumpster. Uh yeah,

678
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: it's just gonna get worse. You just crumble that person. So, UM,

679
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: what causes this is really interesting because UM, we don't

680
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: know for sure and there are they have been everything

681
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: from UM lesions on the brain in certain studies that

682
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: they found UM could account for it two chromosomal defects

683
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: to possibly genetics UM, because they found that it's uh

684
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: other illnesses or at least a behavior as part of

685
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: other illnesses that are definitely genetic, and hoarders are more

686
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: likely to have other family members who are also hoarders.

687
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: Of hoarders surveys say that they have a family member

688
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: who as a hoarder, which is way more than the

689
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: general population. Yeah, so we have no idea what the

690
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: really underlying causes, but we do know it's what's called

691
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: and this is what um, what Hail said who had interviewed,

692
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: is that it is a neuropsychiatric condition and it is

693
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: it's all about like you were talking about earlier, these

694
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 1: processing challenges UM, not being able to process visually, organizationally,

695
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: emotionally and your brain connections aren't aren't working right. Yeah,

696
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: I remember hearing years ago like that they would stick

697
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: these these poor people into the wonder machine and talk

698
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: to them about getting rid of their possessions, saying like,

699
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: I want you to imagine you know this room, and

700
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: think about all of your newspapers. Now, which newspaper do

701
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: you want to get rid of? And these people would

702
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: experience basically physical pain, huge spikes and their levels of

703
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: stress just thinking about this. But when you said the

704
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: same thing about somebody else's stuff, they had no reaction whatsoever.

705
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: It's strictly their stuff and their attachment to it. And

706
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: another study by David Frost showed that when you give

707
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: somebody who is a hoarder something um and say this

708
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: is yours now I think he gave out key chains,

709
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: their attachment to it was immediate, it like right right

710
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: when they knew that they owned the thing and it

711
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: was theirs. They were now as attached to as if

712
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: they'd had it for fifty years it was as important

713
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: to them. So there's a lot of stuff going on

714
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: in the brain, and it does have to do with attachment,

715
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: decision making, finding um comfort and de escalation of stress

716
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: through these material possessions as well. Um, But they just

717
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: don't quite know what did it? Was it a bad

718
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: experience as a kid? Are are you born with the

719
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: chemical balance that doesn't begin to show its symptoms until adolescence.

720
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 1: It's just too new, Like it only became its own

721
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: thing in the d s M five, which came out

722
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen. But it is in the d

723
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: s M now, which means that insurance companies will pay

724
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: for treatment for it, which means that a lot more

725
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: people are going to be studying it than they ever

726
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,919
Speaker 1: were before. Man, I can't imagine anything more torturous than

727
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: being strapped in an MRI machine, which is already stressful

728
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: and confining, and then having to quiz people on anxiety

729
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: inducing mental illness, right like, you know, we're getting rid

730
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: of this thing now, and I'm sure they're they're just

731
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: like want to like bust out of that thing, you know. Yeah,

732
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: it's like it's like torture, just like, and it's valuable research.

733
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: So hats off to the people that do that, and

734
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: and the people that like, the people that administer it,

735
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: and the people that are brave enough to go in

736
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,959
Speaker 1: there and and seek that treatment. Yeah. Oh yeah, hats

737
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: off to him for sure, Man, literal hats off, because

738
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: you can't wear a hat in an MRI machine. You can,

739
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: you can only wear a mesh helmet, that's right. Um. Well,

740
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: there was one other kind of general explaination hypothesis that

741
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: explains hoarding um floating around, and that is that we

742
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: all have this innate evolutionary instinct to gather stuff. Yeah,

743
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: I really like this, Like it's just it's just what

744
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: It's part of our mammalian heritage. And and they think

745
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: that in people who hoard, this instinct has basically gone haywire,

746
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: like some snaps connected with another synaps that weren't supposed

747
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: to be connected. Now, all of a sudden, this thing

748
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: that's a natural thing where you know, you go to

749
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: the grocery store, you buy some stuff, you keep it

750
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: in your refrigerator for a week, turns into you can't

751
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: get enough Sunday circulars to possibly stave off these feelings

752
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: of anxiety. Yeah, it's cool. Little uh story reference was

753
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: like an animal saving food for the winter. Do they

754
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: work extra long to prepare for a possibly long winter,

755
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: but stay out there and are are more more vulnerable

756
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: to getting eaten by the cheetah while they're collecting stuff?

757
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: Or do they say, you know what, I'm gonna go

758
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: ahead and get in the cave. I've got enough stuff. Um,

759
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 1: eventually there will be that long winter and those animals

760
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 1: will die out. So you know, over the course of time,

761
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: the a long winter evolutionary trait will be the one

762
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: that's passed on. Yeah, it's really interesting. The guy whose

763
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: paper he based that on. You should see this paper. Man,

764
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: It's got like sigma everywhere and he's talking about squirrels

765
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: gathering nuts. But there's all these really complex math and

766
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: statistical formula that he's got on on his paper. But

767
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: the the overall gist of it is pretty fascinating and

768
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: it proves or it definitely lends credence to the idea

769
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: that it is a naturally selected evolutionary trait to gather

770
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. Most of us, though, have this

771
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: cut off point where we know I don't need anything

772
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 1: more than this, or anything more than this is irrational

773
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: and people who hoarde definitely don't have that cut off point. Yeah,

774
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 1: we have a room in our house that is full

775
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: of stuff, and it's not hoarding. It's we don't have

776
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: a place for this stuff. We live in a you know,

777
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: eighties something year old craftsman and that you know, those

778
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: houses just don't have the closet space and the storage space.

779
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: We don't have a garage. We do have an addict

780
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: that has us some stuff, and in theory, we could

781
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,959
Speaker 1: probably move all of this stuff up there, but most

782
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: of this stuff we kind of need access to more often. Um,

783
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: So we're not hoarding, but it's it's just like our

784
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: house is small, and we could go you know, the

785
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: other route and be go a little more minimalist for sure,

786
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: and get rid of this stuff, trust me. But um

787
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: but if you don't want to, you don't want to,

788
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 1: well yeah, but I mean it's um, it's a problem

789
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: when we have a guests in the night, which is

790
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: not often because that's our quote guest room. I got

791
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: to you know, I was gonna say, you guys need

792
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: to get to the container store. No, A lot of

793
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: the stuffs and containers. You need a container for your containers. Uh.

794
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: And what we do, it's funny when we do have

795
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: the occasional guests, they are invariably very very close friend

796
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: or family member, and so they understand and we clear

797
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 1: the cut path that's very to the bed. They're like,

798
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: just dive over onto the bed. And then when you

799
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: when you wake up and you want to get up

800
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: to call us and we'll lower the crane harness. That's right.

801
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: But where we are adding not adding onto our house,

802
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: but we're we're finishing the basement. So hopefully that will

803
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: be the solve because we're gonna have some lots more

804
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: good storage down there. There you go being bang boom,

805
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: except we're having to do house construction, which is the

806
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: worst right for your stuff. Um, all right, should we

807
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: take one more break? Yeah, all right, let's do that,

808
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: and we'll come back and talk just briefly about the

809
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 1: very famous call your brothers and then hit on animal hoarding,

810
00:47:44,640 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: which could be the saddest of all hoarding. M all right,

811
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 1: we would be remiss if we didn't mention the Langley

812
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: Homer and Langley Collier. Uh. We you said you want

813
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: to do a full show on them. This will be

814
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: the second time we've covered them. When did we talking

815
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 1: about him before Bizarre Ways to Die? Oh wow, which

816
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: is literally a nine year old episode. Yeah, that is old.

817
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: So I would say we could probably still get away

818
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: with a full episode because if you listen to the

819
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: one in April two nine, in the segment on the

820
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: call your Brothers within that minute episode, then you would

821
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: probably appreciate a more flashed operasion. I would love it.

822
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: But just the broad strokes of it are that Homer

823
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: callier Um went blind older in life or later in life,

824
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: and his brother Langley took care of him. Well. Langley

825
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: was a hoarder and accumulated more and more stuff, and

826
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: eventually Langley died. He was crushed by his stuff and Homer,

827
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: who was a percent depended on Langley Um, starved to

828
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: death in their brownstone and they were found separately, uh

829
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: weeks apart, this in Harlem, New York City. And if

830
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: you just look up pictures of this and the cruise

831
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: and the removing of things, it's really something else. And

832
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: there's actually a little park there named to call your

833
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: Brother's Park. Then in early two thousand's, uh, there was

834
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: a push to get that changed because they were like,

835
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: we should not name a park after these guys. But

836
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, let's still name that.

837
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: I tried to. I don't think that went anywhere, but yeah,

838
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: let's definitely do a uh. And in fact, I think

839
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: it was called call Your Syndrome for a while too.

840
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: Huh yeah, for a while. I mean they were pretty

841
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 1: famous because all the New York papers got in there

842
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: and like printed all sorts of pictures and they had

843
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: like just a fascinating story. All right, now, we might

844
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: as well finish on the saddest of notes, which is

845
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: animal hoarding. And um, we're not talking about well, it

846
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: could be crazy Cat Lady, but not necessarily. I think

847
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: she's an archetype of animal hoarders. Right, So in this

848
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: case we are talking about and I know you've seen

849
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: stories probably on the news here and there. Um, these

850
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: are people that that hoard animals to the extent where

851
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: it's just like the other stuff. It is, Uh. Their

852
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: house is often filled with feces and smells of ammonia,

853
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: full of maybe fleas and ticks. Can't have people over. Uh.

854
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: And and it's one of the saddest because it's these

855
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: people can't bear. They think they're doing the right thing, yeah,

856
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 1: writing these animals, but they're not because these animals almost

857
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: time are very much suffering. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's like hoarding.

858
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: But you know, your your newspapers and plastic grocery bags

859
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: don't suffer with animal hoarding. The hoarder suffers and the

860
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: animals suffer as well because no matter how great the

861
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: intentions of the animal hoarder are, and apparently that is

862
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: the one of the basis of animal hoarding is that

863
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: they really do have the best of intentions. They feel

864
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: like they're rescuing the animals that almost wants. They're taking

865
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: them into their home. Yeah, they're they're feeding them, they're

866
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: caring for him. The problem that is they can't stop

867
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: acquiring them, so it reaches a point where the animals

868
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: they can't possibly there's not enough hours in the day

869
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: to properly care for all the animals. And even if

870
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: you had help and you, um, you had the money

871
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: to buy food and and um veterinary care for all

872
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: these animals, there's still a huge factor in that these

873
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: animals are living very close together in ways that they

874
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: should not be. That's not natural for them. So they're

875
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: stressed out all the time. Yeah, and another one of

876
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: the hallmarks could be not always, but a lot of

877
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: times these are people that are um left alone in life,

878
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: either from being widowed or divorced, or just their their

879
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 1: family has gone, or they just may have a trouble

880
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: interacting with people. And these animals uh in this article

881
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 1: ecent they call it a conflict free relationship, and they

882
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: surround themselves with this thing because it's it's filling them

883
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: with something that they can't get oftentimes out of humans, right,

884
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: which is unconditional love. The problem is, again, it is

885
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: very sad because there's that extra component, the extra very

886
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: important component of suffering animals. But and when people hear

887
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 1: about this stuff, you just immediately like like kind of hiss.

888
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: And the people who who do this when you hear

889
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: about it on the news and don't really know what's

890
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: going on. But again, when you dive into the psychology

891
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: behind it, it's extraordinarily sad because these people have the

892
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: best intentions for these animals, and even while they're caring

893
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,959
Speaker 1: for these animals, they are they're suffering as well through

894
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: this indecision like do is do I love this dog

895
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: or or is this one my favorite or should I

896
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 1: adopt it out? And they just can't decide, so they

897
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: just avoid the decision and just acquire more and more animals,

898
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: again to the detriment of all of the animals involved. Yeah,

899
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: and just like with regular hoarding, um removing these animals

900
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: because by the time you see it on the news,

901
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: it's probably because um that the county is in there

902
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: and animal control is in there and you see them

903
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: these sad, sad stories where they're literally taking out these

904
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: like dogs clearly suffering from malnutrition or cats or whatever,

905
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: and um, that does not solve the problem. You know,

906
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: they have to seek therapy. And just like with with

907
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: object hoarding, UM, if you're a family member confronting them

908
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: being angry, even though this one is probably even tougher

909
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: to not be angry. If you're an animal lover, you

910
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: need to just keep that in check and try and

911
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: be compassionate and help them so you can help the

912
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: animals as well. Right, so there are some stats on

913
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: this animal thing. Where where did you get this? Where

914
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: was this problem as a good article? Man? I wish

915
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: you hadn't asked. I'll tell you. By the time you're

916
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 1: done with the stats. All right, UM, I'll just take

917
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: through a couple of these. Every year, thirty five hundred

918
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: hoarders animal hoarders come to the attention to the authorities,

919
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 1: two fifty animals affected each year. This one is really sad.

920
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: Of animal hoarders have disease, dying, or dead animals on

921
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: the premises at the time. UM. That can be cod

922
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: more of it. Up to four actually is about of

923
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: the time, um. Object hoarders are also hoarding animals. UM.

924
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: And like I was talking about being being lonely or

925
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: widowed perhaps or divorce, seventy percent of animal hoarders UM

926
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: who the authorities know about are females or single, widowed

927
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: or divorce. So the thing is is that's skewed differently

928
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: for some reason. Apparently, if you just go out and

929
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: sample the community, hoarding is pretty much evenly divided among

930
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: men and women. I'm not sure why we typically think

931
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: of them as women, but apparently for animals are in

932
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: general in general, well this is animals specifically, So okay,

933
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: I guess there may be some sort of deeper compassion

934
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: from women. I don't know who knows, but I don't

935
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: want to, uh to undermine the efforts of the Anxiety

936
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: and Depression Association of Americas. Of course, whose site this

937
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 1: came from. Yeah, thanks very much. Uh those great stats,

938
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 1: good website. Yeah. So let's talk real quick about treatment

939
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: of all kinds of hoarding. Um, that's big one is

940
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: they family intervention and loving support is a huge part

941
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: of it, because hoarders apparently don't initiate treatment themselves even

942
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: though they know that they're suffering. Typically, Um, but apparently

943
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: talk therapy is proving to be the best treatment for hoarding.

944
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: And that's where, uh, say, a cognitive behavioral therapist talks

945
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: you through your own beliefs about things like, well, you

946
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 1: know what will happen exactly if you have to give

947
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: away your your plastic grocery bags, and that you they

948
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: make you say it out loud, and when you say

949
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 1: it out loud, maybe there's a little part of your

950
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: brain that's like, wait a minute, that does sound a

951
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: little cookie And maybe they said, well, really, what you

952
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: just said, even if they did happen, even if that

953
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: negative outcome did happen, is that really as as bad

954
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: as it sounds in reality? And they just kind of

955
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: talk you through your beliefs while at the same time

956
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: basically dragging them out into the open so that they're

957
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: not just in your head anymore. They're out there and

958
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: you kind of have to evaluate them in a different

959
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: way speaking with this trained professional. Yeah, and I would

960
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: imagine they, uh, it's probably a ghost slow thing, like

961
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: maybe next week you bring in something that you care

962
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: about and we're gonna we're gonna get rid of it together. Um.

963
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: I doubt if it's like they have some talk therapy

964
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: and then they just go through and clear the house out.

965
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: It's probably very gradual thing to heal someone of this. Yeah,

966
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: but I think it is gradual, like you said, and

967
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: against family has to support it because you know, they

968
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: may give the person they say, like your therapist knows

969
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: exactly how you feel every Thursday at two o'clock, you know,

970
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: I mean you're there for an hour. Um, probably more

971
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: than that if you are a diagnosed toward er and

972
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: you're undergoing treatment. But the point is it's not an

973
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: impatient treatment. You go back home afterward and they give

974
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: you homework, and if you're a chronic hoarder, you're probably

975
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: not going to do the homework. So you need to

976
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: have family saying, well, didn't doctor so and so say

977
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: you need to start to clear this room out this

978
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: week and just just kind of be there and know

979
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: what's going on and support the treatment as well, and

980
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: not just leave them to their own devices. Yeah. And

981
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: the hoarders that have no family and support system, those

982
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,919
Speaker 1: are the ones that are just so tragic because they're

983
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: the least likely to get help and seek help and uh,

984
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: you know, potentially die a very kind of sad, lonely

985
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: life surrounded by their stuff. Yeah. I think those are

986
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: the ones that are the ones you see on the news,

987
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: the ones that don't have family and friends anymore. Yeah.

988
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: So I guess the upshot of all this chuck is

989
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: that if you know a hoarder, um, maybe go be

990
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: nice to them and see if you can help them out,

991
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: because they are most likely suffering calm passion. Yeah, there

992
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: you go. If you want to know more about hoarding,

993
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: you can type that word in the search bar bring

994
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: up this excellent article by Ed Grabanowski on how stuff

995
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: works dot common. Since I said that it's time for

996
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 1: a listener mail, short and sweet is what I called

997
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: this because cracks me up. Occasionally when someone is just

998
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: cracked up by some dumb thing we said I know

999
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: this one. Hey guys, you made my day once again.

1000
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: I spent December listening to Christmas music. Me too, by

1001
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: the way, Oh man, I was done in week one. Yeah,

1002
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: I can. I can muscle through generally for the most part.

1003
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: Not because eventually and we can go. It wasn't the

1004
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: Christmas spirit, just Christmas music this year. I was like,

1005
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: I can't take this at all. Yeah. Yeah, eventually I

1006
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: have to say, all right, we need to like turn

1007
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: on Radiohead or something. And that's why I go to

1008
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: because she'll go she can always listen to radio Head. Yes,

1009
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,439
Speaker 1: she's like, I love Radioheads Christmas album. Oh my god,

1010
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: can you imagine? Um? Now, I'm just hearing various versions

1011
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: of that in my head. Very nice. Um. So I

1012
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: spent December listening to Christmas music, so I got behind

1013
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: on my podcast. I'm currently listening in reverse to December.

1014
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: I was just striving to work listening to Cake and

1015
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: I almost had to pull over because I was laughing

1016
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: so hard at the conversation about oven doors. Josh, I'm sorry, Chuck,

1017
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: do you have a window in your oven door? Josh?

1018
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 1: Of course? What am I a communist? Between that and

1019
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: Chuck baking in his dishwasher. You two made this a

1020
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: perfect day. I gotta say I cannot wait to see

1021
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: you next week again in Portland. My stuff you should

1022
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: know Bingo board is ready travel safe and that is

1023
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: jin Hunt Jen. By the time this comes out, we

1024
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 1: will have just been in Portland and um maybe we

1025
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: have even met you. Yeah. I hope you enjoyed the show.

1026
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: I hope everybody in Portland enjoyed the show. And as

1027
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: a follow up, I don't know if I officially said

1028
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're saying this. I think I posted on Facebook,

1029
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 1: but I definitely do not have an oven window. No,

1030
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: Chuck is officially a communist as an oven without a window,

1031
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: and I've never seen anything like it before. It's like

1032
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: a tank. It's great. Yeah, it's a good look an oven.

1033
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to see that jump cooking. Okay, Well,

1034
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us to

1035
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: let us know how we cracked you up, we love

1036
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: of hearing about that. You can tweet to us s

1037
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,479
Speaker 1: y s K podcast. You can send us an email

1038
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: stuff podcast at how Stuff Works dot com, and as always,

1039
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: join us at our home on the web. Stuff you

1040
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: should dot com. Stuff you should Know is a production

1041
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,

1042
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1043
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.