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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back to Work in Progress.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is a returning favorite of the podcast. Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court lawyer and Georgetown law professor Neil kil Nil a

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Speaker 1: chief tenure at Georgetown at Breakneck Speed, served as National

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Speaker 1: Security advisor to the Justice Department, and is a winner

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Speaker 1: of the Edmund Randolph Award. But the achievement that garnered

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Speaker 1: Neil well deserved renown was his first Supreme Court argument,

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Speaker 1: in which he defended the basic constitutional rights of fair

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Speaker 1: trial and anti torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. That victory

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Speaker 1: led to the upholding of the Geneva Conventions around the world,

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Speaker 1: and I think this moment speaks to the core of

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Speaker 1: Neil's character. He is a person who believes more than

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Speaker 1: anything in the spirit of the law and injustice as

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Speaker 1: a blind force greater than ourselves. In our last episode together,

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Speaker 1: Neil said that he felt he had a duty to

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Speaker 1: act in the common good and I can't think of

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Speaker 1: anything that exemplifies that better. In extending basic decency and

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Speaker 1: human rights to everyone, regardless of their charges, background, and ideologies,

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Speaker 1: Neil continues to teach law uplift aspiring attorneys and put

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Speaker 1: together arguments for the Supreme Court. He even has his

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Speaker 1: own podcast, Courtside, which breaks down major litigation, political issues,

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Speaker 1: and legal news into bite sized portions. It tuned into

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Speaker 1: Courtside on i G t V Live every week. It

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorite things to do with my time,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure that after today's interview you will feel

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Speaker 1: the same. Neil is an inspiring, principled guy that I

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Speaker 1: find remarkably easy to talk to. So without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's die writing. Neil, I'm so grateful that you have

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Speaker 1: taken an hour out of your time to come back

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Speaker 1: on the podcast today. Thank you so much. I have

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Speaker 1: so many questions for you, I suppose the first of

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Speaker 1: which is just how are you? Because there is an

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Speaker 1: awful lot going on in the United States, uh legal

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Speaker 1: sphere right now, and I'm just wondering how you're managing

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Speaker 1: to to do all of this and simultaneously educate the

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Speaker 1: public in all of these segments that you're doing every day. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, thank you Sophia for having me. You're

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Speaker 1: such a voice for good in light and education in

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Speaker 1: this world. And so you know, when I was on

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Speaker 1: last time, I had so much fun and and really

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Speaker 1: appreciated the opportunity, and so I'm glad to be back.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm doing okay. You know, it's been a

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Speaker 1: very intense year, particularly on the George Floyd prosecution UM.

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Speaker 1: But that's gonna mostly wrap up next week with Derek

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Speaker 1: Chobin sentencing and then we've got the trial of the

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Speaker 1: other three defendants which will take play us in March

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Speaker 1: of next year. But that's on a now a slower trajectory.

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Speaker 1: So it was a very intense time because we're really

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Speaker 1: trying to ready and get everything done on a really

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Speaker 1: fast schedule. I mean, basically, he was tried and under

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Speaker 1: a year from when George Floyd was murdered, so that's

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Speaker 1: a very aggressive timeline, but we met it, and obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, the result speaks for itself. So so that's

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Speaker 1: been an enormous amount of time and energy, but also

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Speaker 1: energizing to work with this team of people. Keith Ellison,

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General, was just a phenomenal kind of ringleader

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Speaker 1: for all of us, and all the prosecutors were just

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Speaker 1: lovely people as well as you know, committed to the

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Speaker 1: right thing um. And George Floyd's family was just like

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Speaker 1: inspirational and so all that together just made it really

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Speaker 1: one of the more uplifting experiences of my life, for

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Speaker 1: all the hours and tough things that happened during it.

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Speaker 1: So in general, I'm pretty good. I mean, I'm seeing Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C Open up now, people in the streets, going

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Speaker 1: to restaurants, even going to movie theaters and sing in

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Speaker 1: the heights and things like that. So very exciting. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you know, what a miracle of science. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I feel very grateful right now. Yeah, science is a miracle. Indeed.

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Speaker 1: I just keep thinking about how lucky I feel to

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Speaker 1: be alive in a time of modern medicine. And I

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Speaker 1: think feeling so fortunate also makes me feel frustrated because

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Speaker 1: I can't bathom that anyone could critique modern medicine. But

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Speaker 1: I guess, you know, we we do live in this

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Speaker 1: really interesting time where you don't believe in the microchips. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so interesting to me. I'm like, it's weird that

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Speaker 1: everyone running around with a smartphone literally tagging their locations

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Speaker 1: on their Instagram and Facebook posts. Says that the government's

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Speaker 1: going to need to chip us to track us. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you have a tracker in your pocket. I

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Speaker 1: don't really think anybody cares where you're going. I hate

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Speaker 1: to break it. Ea, you know it does. It does,

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Speaker 1: as you know, not to get too dark, but it

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Speaker 1: does cause me some worry that if we can politicize

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Speaker 1: that vaccines, like what can't you politicize? I mean there

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Speaker 1: are hard questions facing society, income, inequality, ways, you know,

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Speaker 1: so many hard things. But if you can politicize literally science, um,

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Speaker 1: then you can do it to anything um. And other

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Speaker 1: nations like Russia can exploit those divisions. So it is

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Speaker 1: a scary time. I'm really curious about that because when

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Speaker 1: we talk about these things that have been politicized that

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Speaker 1: should exist as simple fact. You know, a vaccine is

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Speaker 1: a good thing. It's the reason humans are alive today.

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Speaker 1: When you see a man murdered on tape, we should

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Speaker 1: all agree that murders murder when we witness it. And

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Speaker 1: yet we do live in a time where there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of pushback about facts, and a lot of things

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Speaker 1: are being weaponized, and and even calls from academia to

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Speaker 1: stop whitewashing our history are being met with the banning

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Speaker 1: of critical race theory. While you have Marjorie Taylor Green

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Speaker 1: in Congress making horrific comparisons which are just so confounding.

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Speaker 1: Comparisons to requirements to meet public health standards, to being

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Speaker 1: in the Nazi camps at Auschwitz. I mean, just really

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Speaker 1: horrific stuff. And we're living in a time where we're

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Speaker 1: seeing rises in you know, police violence and anti Semitic

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Speaker 1: hate crimes and violence against a p I community, and

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Speaker 1: and I just wonder what your message would be to

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Speaker 1: stay hopeful. Well, what a great set of questions. So so,

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Speaker 1: first of all, Marjorie Taylor Green is a national embarrassment

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Speaker 1: and doesn't belong to be even in the same city

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Speaker 1: as the United States Capital, let alone inside of it.

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Speaker 1: But she's representative of something she's not. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: is the source of the problem, but she also mirrors

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Speaker 1: the problem. And the problem is, you know, an ignorance

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Speaker 1: and a kind of loss of truth. Like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go out on a limb and say that, you know, Sophia,

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Speaker 1: I doubt you were on the high school debate team,

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Speaker 1: but I was. And it's one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: about you. So, um, I was not cool enough to

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Speaker 1: not be on it. And one of the things in

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Speaker 1: high school debate that happens is that you argue literally

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Speaker 1: anything like you go in and you say nuclear war

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Speaker 1: is good, or you know, crazy crazy positions, and you

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Speaker 1: know it's a joke. You know that you're just sitting

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Speaker 1: there trying to actually make a point win a contest.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that kind of mentality has morphed over

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Speaker 1: now into our actual national discourse, so that you've got

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Speaker 1: people like her saying these crazy, outlandish things or the

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Speaker 1: former president, I mean, just insane, preposterous things that no

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Speaker 1: rational human beings should believe. And I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: One bigg reason for that is the breakdown of history education,

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Speaker 1: of civics education in this country. And the way we

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Speaker 1: find truth is by and understand that there is a

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Speaker 1: core set of ideals and beliefs about our nation. Is

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Speaker 1: to go back and study what we've done before and

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Speaker 1: the progress we've made, and not to whitewash it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's some beautiful lessons in history, like from the creation

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Speaker 1: of the First Amendment or the ratification of the thirteenth

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Speaker 1: Amendment or the Equal Protection Clause. There's also a lot

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Speaker 1: of dark moments like I've been struck. You know. Two

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Speaker 1: weeks ago was the hundredth anniversary that telsa massacre in

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Speaker 1: I had no idea until I watched HBO's Watchman that

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Speaker 1: that had happened. I mean, I learned this from a

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Speaker 1: fictional TV show what three years ago. You know, I

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Speaker 1: took a lot of history classes at fancy universities. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't taught that. So there is some breakdown here, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, some people are taught at and somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: that contributes to this divide and so literally have people

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Speaker 1: talking past each other a lot of times. And so

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Speaker 1: one of the things I really want to do in

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Speaker 1: my next big project is basically to revitalize Civics education

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Speaker 1: in this country through you know, a fun TV show

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Speaker 1: and things like that that try and teach these lessons.

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Speaker 1: Please let me know how I can be part of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm ready to go. I'm signing up. I'll even just

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Speaker 1: get coffee on set. I'm there, I'm all in, all right,

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Speaker 1: all right, great, So, but I feel like that is

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Speaker 1: so needed right now, and particularly as I think about

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Speaker 1: what happened on January six in my city and blood

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Speaker 1: being spilt in the Capitol building. People need to learn

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Speaker 1: and maybe you aren't going to reach some of these

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Speaker 1: died hard Yahoo's I understand that, but there's the next

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Speaker 1: generation of people coming up, and we have to use

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Speaker 1: modern technology not to divide us, which has been happening,

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Speaker 1: but to try and glue us together because there are

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Speaker 1: incredible traditions in this country. Um and uh, and we

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Speaker 1: need to tell those stories. Does your passion for all

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Speaker 1: of this? I mean, obviously you have such a a

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Speaker 1: lauded career, but do you do you trace your passion?

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Speaker 1: I know we talked in our last conversation when we

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Speaker 1: came on the show in the first season that you

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Speaker 1: had a passion for law from an early age and

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Speaker 1: it stemmed from your father's discrimination case, which we talked

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Speaker 1: about in that episode and your work on the debate team,

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Speaker 1: which you just referenced. Could you have ever imagined you

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Speaker 1: would practice anything other than law or was this really

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Speaker 1: the path you knew you'd take, even if you didn't

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Speaker 1: know you'd wind up in exactly this, you know, this

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Speaker 1: kind of historic position. No. I totally feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: here in a large part by accident. I mean, first

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Speaker 1: of all, like I was brainwashed to be a doctor,

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Speaker 1: like many South Asians, I didn't even know there was

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Speaker 1: another profession. And indeed, I think my mom bribed me

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Speaker 1: and my senior year high school. She said, if you

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Speaker 1: just applied to one of these six year combined medical

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Speaker 1: school college things, then I'll give you my car. So

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Speaker 1: so I applied. Um. So, I really thought I was

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Speaker 1: going to be premed. And like, I went to college

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Speaker 1: and basically failed my biology class and realized that that's

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Speaker 1: just not where my heart was. My heart was really

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Speaker 1: an education. I thought I was going to teach history,

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Speaker 1: and even when I went to law school, I really

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Speaker 1: went with the idea of just teaching. And even when

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Speaker 1: I graduated, I thought I was going to teach. And

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Speaker 1: then I did this pro bono case about a Guantanamo detainee,

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Speaker 1: and I was just outraged by what happened there, that

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Speaker 1: they were creating this legal black hole and literally they

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Speaker 1: were going to try and put them to death with

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Speaker 1: no legal process, and so I got outraged by it.

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Speaker 1: I decided, you know, at first I did, I was

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Speaker 1: a law professor, so I like wrote law of your articles,

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Speaker 1: which no one read. Um. And so then I said, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: I got this thing, this law degree, I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna have to use it. And so that's what led

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Speaker 1: me down that path in that case. And then when

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Speaker 1: I won that case, I was thirty six years old.

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Speaker 1: It was my first Supreme Court argument and we won,

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Speaker 1: and that ended the military tribunals at Guantanamo, made the

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Speaker 1: Geneva Conventions apply worldwide to the War on terror, like it,

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Speaker 1: end of goes prisons, waterboarding, all sorts of stuff. I

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Speaker 1: was like the thirty six year old law provestor, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, we just did that.

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Speaker 1: And that's when I realized the power of the law

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Speaker 1: to do, you know, to be a force. And so

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Speaker 1: it was at that point really that everything else follows,

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Speaker 1: but not not really before that. So it was a

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Speaker 1: little bit by accident. And you had said a moment

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Speaker 1: ago about the choved In case and about things taking

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Speaker 1: a year, and you know, that feels like a long time.

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Speaker 1: But I would argue that in criminal cases, we want

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Speaker 1: things to take some time. We don't want mob justice,

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Speaker 1: lynch justice. Of course, that's not what you're suggesting at all.

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Speaker 1: I know that. But the reason why we have these

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Speaker 1: kind of prophylactic rules and structure, Unlike, for example, the

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Speaker 1: Guantano tribunals, which could have been done, they tried to

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Speaker 1: want to do start to finish in a matter of days.

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Speaker 1: Is because by having regularized intervals you allow inputs into

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Speaker 1: the process from expert witnesses, from eyewitnesses, from council lawyers

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Speaker 1: and the like. And so there's a reason for it,

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Speaker 1: and it works well when it's in the year time frame,

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Speaker 1: you're right. If it takes longer than that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you start to get to worry, particularly justice delayed as

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Speaker 1: justice denied. Yeah, that's actually a really helpful way to

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Speaker 1: look at it, to think about it because you know,

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Speaker 1: particularly what we were talking before about, how like, you know,

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Speaker 1: everything is politicized, and the last thing you want is

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Speaker 1: a verdict like this to be like, oh that thing

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Speaker 1: was rushed or something like that by by the defenders

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Speaker 1: of the defendant. I think every American can look at

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Speaker 1: that trial and say, wow, Chauvin had great counsel. Prosecutors

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Speaker 1: had good counsel, They had access to witnesses, they could

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Speaker 1: go in and tell their stories uninterrupted and and let

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Speaker 1: the truth went out, the crucible of truth. And so

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Speaker 1: that's I think something we should celebrate. And you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes on the left, it really bothers me that people

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Speaker 1: attack the legal process, or people attack Derek Chauvin's lawyer. Know,

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Speaker 1: this person is doing something really important. In our system,

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Speaker 1: we don't want a trial in which you don't have

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Speaker 1: someone being represented by good counsel. That's a horrible, horrible thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a Soviet system that's not ours. Wow. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's something really to sit with because it can be

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Speaker 1: a hard pill to swallow that a person who abuses

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Speaker 1: their power and takes the life of another still deserves

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Speaker 1: the best counsel. But when you think about it, when

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Speaker 1: we see how much harm has been done with inadequate council,

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Speaker 1: especially in our criminal justice system for defendants, you know,

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Speaker 1: forced coercions of kids. I just read an article about

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Speaker 1: how the law in Illinois has mandated that they stop

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Speaker 1: essentially forcing the confession of children in the state of Illinois,

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Speaker 1: and within the first paragraph of the article they referenced, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy, but that's legal, right. I just thought, what

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Speaker 1: what's happening here? So I suppose that if we really

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Speaker 1: do want to live up to the best of our ideals,

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Speaker 1: including the ways in which you so incredibly pushed the

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Speaker 1: globe to to make the Geneva Conventions apply to everyone,

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Speaker 1: because if they don't they don't actually apply to anyone.

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Speaker 1: The reality is that if we're going to fix the

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Speaker 1: legal system, we have to fix it for everyone, whether

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Speaker 1: there are people we agree with or not. I mean,

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Speaker 1: with like the Geneva Conventions, people would often attack me saying,

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Speaker 1: these are terrorists, why do they deserve any rights? First

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Speaker 1: of all, one question is are that you know the

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Speaker 1: whole idea of legal process is to make sure you

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Speaker 1: haven't jumped to that conclusion, so you don't want to

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Speaker 1: beg the question. But the other is, you know, when

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Speaker 1: we talk about these protections, they're not for the benefit

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Speaker 1: of that these people alone. They're also for the defendants.

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Speaker 1: They're also for the benefit of us. It says something

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Speaker 1: about who we are as a people. So like, I

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Speaker 1: typically do one death penalty case at the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: every year, and these are horrific facts. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: is so hard to read what happened in a case

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Speaker 1: and then to stand up and defend that person in

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. I mean once I remember Jose Scalia

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Speaker 1: went after He's like, have you read what happened in

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Speaker 1: the facts? Yes, that's not the issue before you. There's

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Speaker 1: a legal issue. There's a process issue, and it's an

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Speaker 1: important one. And I think the founders get pillaried for

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Speaker 1: any number of things, and rightly so. But one thing

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Speaker 1: they did understand was at least for some segment of

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Speaker 1: the people, they would get a certain they would get

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Speaker 1: rights no matter what they're accused of. And I think

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Speaker 1: the project of our American government of the last two

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Speaker 1: hundred years has been largely to expand who that category

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Speaker 1: of people is, so it's not just white male property owners,

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Speaker 1: but to something much broader than that. In a course,

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Speaker 1: we haven't lived up to that, but that's the goal.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't be the cut process back for the people

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Speaker 1: who we think are guilty. It should be to expand

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Speaker 1: it for everyone. That's something to sit with as well, really,

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Speaker 1: to to make sure we're leaning into the things we

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Speaker 1: say we believe in. Now when we talk about process,

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Speaker 1: I can't help but almost laugh, because the last time

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Speaker 1: you and I spoke, we were in the heart of

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Speaker 1: a toothless impeachment. And the day that we spoke, in fact,

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Speaker 1: I think while we were recording, it was announced that

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Speaker 1: no witnesses would be allowed in Trump's impeachment trial. Why

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Speaker 1: doesn't true process apply to people in power? How can

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Speaker 1: a man who has been committing crimes in broad daylight

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Speaker 1: with the assistance of elected officials, the Josh Holly's and

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Speaker 1: the Ted Cruises, I mean, seditious traitors to the United States.

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Speaker 1: How could this have been allowed? In? In what ways

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Speaker 1: can process be hampered by power? Such a great question.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I think the first time was when when

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Speaker 1: I was on before I was during it, the first impeachment.

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Speaker 1: They're actually, you know what's reminded me there two immagements

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Speaker 1: now because twice um and and both times toothless and

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Speaker 1: kind of a disgrace. Not because of what the Democrats did.

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Speaker 1: I thought both presentations Jamie Raskins and Adam Schifts were incredible,

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Speaker 1: but because of spineless Republicans who wanted to just protect

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Speaker 1: the president and not tell the truth to the American people.

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Speaker 1: So I think that there was all, you know a

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Speaker 1: little bit. This goes back to one of the problems

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Speaker 1: with the Founders. They celebrated this idea that the executive branch,

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Speaker 1: as Alexander Hamilton's said, should act with secrecy and dispatch.

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Speaker 1: That we wanted to have a executive who was relatively unfettered,

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Speaker 1: and they a lot that you'd be electing a certain

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Speaker 1: type of person to the presidency, which I don't think

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Speaker 1: we had for the last four years, and perhaps at

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Speaker 1: other points in American history, Um, they didn't anticipate a

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Speaker 1: president who would so you know, blatantly abuse his powers.

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Speaker 1: But we've generated two hundred years of kind of legal

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Speaker 1: traditions that protect the president, and like the most important

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Speaker 1: one of which is these Justice Department opinions that say

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Speaker 1: you can't indict a sitting president, that you can't bring

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Speaker 1: criminal action against them, which is what allowed Muller and

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Speaker 1: bar to essentially say we're not going to do anything

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Speaker 1: against Donald Trump. Um, I think those opinions are just wrong.

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Speaker 1: I thought they were wrong for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: they need to be reconsidered. And I'd like to see

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden, who you know, in some sense has something

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Speaker 1: to lose by saying a sitting president can be indited

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Speaker 1: since he is one. But I'd like to see him

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Speaker 1: say that's just not our American system, because the heart

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Speaker 1: of the American system even more important than a president

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Speaker 1: who acts with secrecy and dispatches. No one is above

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Speaker 1: the law. That's like, you go back and read the

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Speaker 1: Declaration of Independence, what is it? What's the kind of

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Speaker 1: overarching theme of the I think twenty eight or whatever

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Speaker 1: big grievances against King George the Third. It's that fundamental

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Speaker 1: point and what we had for the last four years

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Speaker 1: as a president who said, Nope, I'm above the law,

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Speaker 1: I can do this, I can you know, lie cheats

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Speaker 1: feel and kind of get away with it. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that he might be in legal jeopardy now, because

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Speaker 1: clearly he doesn't. I mean, he's saying he thinks he's

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Speaker 1: going to be Speaker of the House in two I

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Speaker 1: can't even imagine what that would mean for our government.

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Speaker 1: But the Republicans are unwilling to rein him in despite

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Speaker 1: all of his all of the evidence against him, Russian interference,

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Speaker 1: collusion with foreign governments, by the way, his past mafia involvement,

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Speaker 1: which was no secret in New York. So if there's

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Speaker 1: no if there's no safety measures to prevent someone who's

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Speaker 1: a member of an anized crimes indicate from becoming the president,

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Speaker 1: to your point, you should certainly be able to indict

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Speaker 1: them while they are. Is there any merit to any

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Speaker 1: of this? Could he become Speaker of the House? Is

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Speaker 1: he maybe going to go to jail? If we can

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Speaker 1: have a proper January six commission, despite Republic installing. What

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Speaker 1: is going on here? Again from from your angle of

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Speaker 1: legal expertise, so, I think the chances of him becoming

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Speaker 1: Speaker the House in two are roughly equivalent to the

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Speaker 1: chances of him in being in reinstalled as president in

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Speaker 1: August of this year, just to say zero. You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you'll be Speaker of Moral Lago or something like

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Speaker 1: that for a time, but that's about it. And well,

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Speaker 1: I have heard he's crashing funerals there now. He's desperate

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Speaker 1: for attention, which is awfully depressing. So look, I think

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Speaker 1: that he is in very serious legal jeopardy, and actually

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Speaker 1: in two different fronts, not one. So. The one that

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Speaker 1: we hear a lot about, and rightly so, is this

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Speaker 1: New York investigation because they now have his tax right words,

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Speaker 1: They've gone after and tried to flip his CFO Alan Weiselberg,

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Speaker 1: They're going after Weiselberg's kids. There's a lot of reasons

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Speaker 1: to be worried about that investigation, which you know is financial.

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Speaker 1: We know that Trump is not exactly someone who dots

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Speaker 1: his eyes and crosses his tease when it comes to finances.

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Speaker 1: So having you know, experienced prosecutors look into. That is

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Speaker 1: I think a very very worrisome sign for him. The

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Speaker 1: other is this investigation in Georgia, because there there's you know,

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Speaker 1: remember when Donald Trump tried to basically say I just

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Speaker 1: need you to find eleven thousand seven votes or whatever

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Speaker 1: that is not exactly legal in our American system. Tend

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Speaker 1: to put him mildly. And there's actually just today you know,

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Speaker 1: is we're recording this on JA on June, some new

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Speaker 1: information some emails that have come out where a lawyer

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Speaker 1: at supposedly acting on behalf of Trump was involved in

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Speaker 1: trying to pressure the Justice Department and others to have

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Speaker 1: these bogus investigations. So I suspect that there's going to

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Speaker 1: be more that's going to come out there. And you've

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Speaker 1: got again a skilled district attorney in Atlanta who's wanting

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Speaker 1: to look into this and who's opened I think two

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Speaker 1: different grand jury investigations. So it would be one thing

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Speaker 1: if we were talking about a normal president, but we're

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Speaker 1: talking about a president who played fast and loose at

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Speaker 1: every turn. So I do think that these criminal investigations

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Speaker 1: may have some serious consequences for him, and I have

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Speaker 1: to ask as we are, you know, just a few

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Speaker 1: years after the explosion of Me Too into the public discourse,

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Speaker 1: perhaps into household conversations rather than back room discussions among

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Speaker 1: so many women and other people who have experienced harassment.

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Speaker 1: What is going on with the d o J stepping

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Speaker 1: in on behalf of the of the former guy in

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Speaker 1: this E. G. And Carroll case? Is that going to stand?

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Speaker 1: Is that just again part of the process, that that

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Speaker 1: is going to work itself out in some way that

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Speaker 1: we can't see yet. Because I'm so upset with Merrick Garland,

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Speaker 1: especially after all these years when I would imagine he

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Speaker 1: would have become more sort of solidified against Trump's bully tactics.

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Speaker 1: Why why would the DJ get involved in this case? So, Sophia,

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Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right to be upset about this.

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Speaker 1: I'm upset too, And um, I think it's the wrong decision.

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Speaker 1: So basically, Jeane Carol sued Donald Trump for real horrible

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Speaker 1: groping and harassment, um and then lying about it. And

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Speaker 1: what Trump ordered his Justice Department to do was go

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Speaker 1: in to federal court and say when Donald Trump denied

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Speaker 1: these allegations, he was acting under the scope of duties

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Speaker 1: as president of the United States, um when he attacked

428
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: this woman and therefore, ay, we're going to defend him

429
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: the Justice Department, so Trump doesn't have to pay for

430
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: private lawyers and be because you're suing someone in their

431
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: official capacity and he hasn't executed any sort of waiver

432
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: of immunity, you can't sue him. So case should be dismissed.

433
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: And the district court judge there, Judge Kaplan, a very

434
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: well respected non political judge, said this is bogus. Of course,

435
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: this is wrong. Lying about women is not part of

436
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: the president's official duties. So that's where things stood before

437
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: the election, and where I think everyone thought this would

438
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: kind of end. But nope, the Garland Justice de Parliament

439
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: went into the appeals court and said, yes, we think

440
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: that Judge Caplan is wrong. Why did they do that, Well,

441
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: there is this opinion from in a d C court

442
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: which kind of gives some strength possibly to this argument

443
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: that you know, if you're defending yourself, uh, and you

444
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: say something that's part of your official duties. But you know,

445
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: I think they read that thing way too far. And

446
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: you know, to me, it's not about who pays for

447
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: the defense. We know Trump's gonna stiff as lawyers anyway.

448
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: So it's not You're gonna pay for the defense no

449
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: matter what. But the real thing is is that if

450
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: this Garland position is accepted, it means Gene Carol loses

451
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: her lossuit. She didn't even get a day in court.

452
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: And we were just talking before about what's the beauty

453
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: of the American legal system. It's process. It's allowing both

454
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: sides to go in and tell their story before a

455
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: neutral adjudicator and have it decided on. And what this position,

456
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: which Garland has now embraced is no, Gene Carroll, you

457
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: don't get to tell your story. Your case is over

458
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: because Trump is basically immune from liability. You know, you

459
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: can twist yourself in a pretzel and get to that position.

460
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem right, and it doesn't seem I

461
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: think you're right to raise you know, all the things

462
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: we've learned from the Me Too movement in the last

463
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: two years, and then to have this come on top

464
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: of that, I have a real problem with it. Well,

465
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: and to your point about earlier about who Trump is,

466
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: this is a man who stands accused by so many

467
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: women of sexual assault in misconduct, credible accusations including of

468
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: rape by his ex wife documented in court. This doesn't

469
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: feel surprising. I think what feels surprising is that someone

470
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: who we assumed is a good guy would still take

471
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: the sort of more typical male side on this argument.

472
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: I don't mean to say that I think Garland's doing

473
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: it on the male side. I think, what what is

474
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: really happening here? And then there's one other decision about

475
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: the bar memos about Trump and the Mueller report, in

476
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: which Garland also appealed a decision there and not to

477
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: release that information. I think in both cases he's really

478
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: profoundly an institutionalist and profoundly trying to say what would

479
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: a normal justice department do in ordinary circumstances, and then

480
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: he's going to do it. And I think that there

481
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: is not an ordinary president exactly. That's the problem. And

482
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: it's like it's like certain times, you you know, you

483
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: break a bone and the only way to heal it

484
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: is by breaking it again. Um, that's kind of what

485
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: we need here. I mean, Trumps so destroyed what the

486
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: Justice Department was about, what the rule of law was about.

487
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: Sometimes you have to actually deviate from ordinary processes in

488
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: order to just get back to normal. Um. And so

489
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: these two decisions do worry me. There's been a many

490
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: other ones that Garland has done which I'm totally supportive of,

491
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 1: like doubling the voting rights enforcement and things like that,

492
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: which has made absolutely the right calls. But these two

493
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: I think are problems. How do we as a public,

494
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, concerned citizens, how do we rallied for for

495
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 1: more of those right calls? Is there any action we

496
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: can take? Is there any noise we can make to

497
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: you know, demand as you said that no one is

498
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: held above the law, including a former president. Do we

499
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: have any recourse here as as a constituency. We do,

500
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: And it's different than before in the last four years

501
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: because what the Senate did in terms of overseeing the

502
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: Justice Department was basically non existent in the Justice Department,

503
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: just thumb their nose at it. But now you actually

504
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: do have really phenomenal people, particularly on the Senate Judiciary Committee, UM,

505
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: people like Amy Klobuchar, Dick Durban and the like who

506
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: really care about these issues. And so I think let

507
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: them know and let your voice be heard through the

508
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: Senators because Garland will, I think listen. Ultimately, I mean,

509
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: he's an as capable of person as as it comes,

510
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: and um, you know, his heart is in the right place.

511
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,719
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that for a second, unlike you know,

512
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: the pre prior occupants of the attorney generalship over the

513
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: last few years, who are not criminal then pretty close

514
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: to it. But so I think there is an opportunity

515
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: here and I think we should use it. I don't

516
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: think we should be like, oh, you know, you know,

517
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: nothing ever gets done in Washington and it's all the same,

518
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: same old things do get done. We're already having huge

519
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: change from the last four years. We actually do have

520
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: a rule of law that's coming back. Yes, there are problems,

521
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 1: there are, I don't mean to, you know, pretend there aren't.

522
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: But nobody should take from our discussion that things haven't changed,

523
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, if not add eighty degrees a hundred and

524
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: sixty and seventy degrees from what they were. And you know,

525
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: I hear that all the time from Justice Department career people.

526
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: They're so excited, they're so happy. They hung on by

527
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: their you know, tonails over the last four years, and

528
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: now they're empowered to just do the right thing. They

529
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: can like not seek a maximum sentence against the criminal

530
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: defendant because the Attorney General ordered them to do so

531
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: they can seek the right sentence. Yeah, and I think

532
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: that's a lot of information that many of us weren't

533
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: pretty to the fact that the a G. Was pushing

534
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: for harsher sentencing for more community harm, which is frustrating

535
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: both morally and into actually because we have the proof,

536
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: we have all the studies that show that it doesn't help.

537
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: Longer sentencing and more brutal kind of iron fist rule

538
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: of the judicial system don't actually make communities safer, and

539
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: they certainly don't help people rehabilitate those kinds of facts

540
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: that you because of the lawyer you are, because of

541
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: being a former acting Solicitor General, all all of all

542
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: of the things including being a New York Times best

543
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: selling author, that that you do in this space. Um,

544
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: you often will drop a casual phrase and I'm like,

545
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: way to nail back up? That was really profound. It

546
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: is the is the amount of your legal knowledge that

547
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: you see so many of us being so interested in.

548
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: Is that why you decided to launch Courtside because it's

549
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 1: one of my favorite things on the internet, and for

550
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: and for anyone listening at home, if for some reason

551
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: you've been living under a rock, and you haven't seen

552
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: what Neil has been doing. Courtside is an i G

553
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: t V project that Neil does. It's now available as

554
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: a podcast and it's available on YouTube and you started it. Ironically,

555
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: today Biden was announced as our forty six president, which

556
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: I say is ironic because it took a lot of

557
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: days to get to the end of the election. But

558
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: you cover a topic that people need to know about

559
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: and you let people into how the law works. But

560
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: it's actually really exciting. I know there's probably some people

561
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: being like an hour about law that was boring. These

562
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: episodes are great, and you're covering topics even recently like

563
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: the Tulsa race massacre, of which we referenced earlier, the

564
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani raid, the Mississippi abortion Cause you're really going

565
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: through these timely issues and letting us in on how

566
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: the mechanisms work. How did you decide to do this? Well,

567
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: thank you so much for those really sweet words, because

568
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: obviously you know it's a lot of work and it's

569
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: hard to do, and so it gets some nice feedback.

570
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: Is it really gives me, you know, somewhere steal in

571
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: my spine to keep doing it. But basically it kind

572
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: of stumbled on it by accident because when Biden was

573
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: announced in November is having won the election, and then

574
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, you know, right away contested it. I had

575
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: not even point oh one percent doubt in my mind

576
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: that all of Trump's legal maneuvers were going to go nowhere.

577
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: But that was not what my friends and family were feeling.

578
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: They were like, this law thing. You know, Trump has

579
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: got all his judges and this, and that he's gonna lie,

580
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: cheat and steal and win this thing. And I thought, nope,

581
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing. I don't know a lot

582
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: about a lot of things, but I know about the

583
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: legal system and I know that Trump has tried to

584
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: destroy it, but it's gonna hold. And so I just

585
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: went on like Instagram and just said that, and the

586
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: thing kind of took off. And so then I was like, Okay,

587
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: I'll do it again the next day and gives some

588
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: more reasons as opposed to being off the cuff, and

589
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: you know, give some numbers and stats. And then I

590
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: wound up doing it every day for those you know

591
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: whatever two and a half months and Trump trying to

592
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: drag out the election dispute, and so it was every day,

593
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: and it was just you know, it did run me

594
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: under the ground, but it was also incredibly satisfying to

595
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: hear comments like what you just said. And then after that,

596
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: after after we made it through election, after we made

597
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: it through January six, I thought, you know, there is

598
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: a space for this um. But I can't with all

599
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: the other things I have going on. I can't do

600
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: it every day, but maybe once a week. So that's

601
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: so I try and do it on Sundays and try

602
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: and do a different topic. And you know, I actually

603
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of you know a lot of

604
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: people actually know a lot about the law, and yet

605
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: you can still go a little deeper, like so for example,

606
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: we're just talking a moment ago about you know, mandatory

607
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: sentencing and kind of you know, an attorney general that

608
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: kind of insists on maximum sensees. And you know, in

609
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: in where you are in l A, you just had

610
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: a district attorney's race which is actually about in large

611
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: part this question do you enforce three strikes laws or

612
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: not as the district attorney? And you know there's now

613
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: litigation about that as your district attorney tries to you know,

614
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: say no, justice demands something less than that. It demands

615
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: a more individualized form of sentencing. But a lot of people,

616
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, we're really up in arms about what the

617
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: prior district attorney was doing. And so what I want

618
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: to try and do is, you know, broaden that conversation

619
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: to more people. Yeah, it's really exciting and I feel

620
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: like it. It helps a lot of us understand the

621
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: technicalities and and also what is happening in terms of progress.

622
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 1: And you know, you brought some sanity to a very

623
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: insane time when you first began, because it's an interesting

624
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: thing to, you know, watch a seventy four year old

625
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: man who has never suffered a consequence in his life

626
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: because his dad's paid his way out of every single

627
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: one finally have a consequence on such a large scale.

628
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: To see Joe Biden be the forties president who received

629
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: more votes than any president in history, I think it

630
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: it broke Trump's brain a little bit. And it was

631
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 1: really reassuring for me watching him just bombastically trapes all

632
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: over our legal system, knowing he had allies that care

633
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: much more about their own power than the law, the

634
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: Mitch mcconnells of the world and the rest of them.

635
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: I was nervous, and so you really you know, you

636
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: talked me off of a couple of ledges, and it's

637
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: nice to not only have a voice of reason, but

638
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: as you said, a friend who is providing data, because

639
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: you were like, no, these are the numbers, and this

640
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: is the law and this is this doesn't work like that.

641
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh right, this isn't just a

642
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: feeling I have. There's lots of facts, um, and legal

643
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: legalities to back it up. So thank you for that. UM.

644
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: I am curious because you talk about launching courtside, you know,

645
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: right when the election results finally came in all of

646
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: all of the tallies, but just eight days before the election,

647
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: Amy Coney Barrett was forced through a vetting process, which

648
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: also feels enraging because clearly a rushed process is not

649
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: a done process. So much like Brett Kavanaugh and my

650
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: wondering who paid off all of his debt and all

651
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: of Justice Kennedy's debt before he strangely retired to make

652
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: way for Brett, I really wonder what we're going to

653
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: find out about the skeletons in in Justice Barrett's closet,

654
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: And maybe there aren't any, but it is to your point,

655
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: the rushed process that makes it feel like there could

656
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: be To have someone like her, who has been publicly

657
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: part of very restrictive and discriminatory groups take the place

658
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: of a woman like Ruth Bader Ginsburg feels compoundingly painful

659
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: and insulting toward progress, especially for women and equality. So

660
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: I I wonder how in the midst of the election

661
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: you coped with, as someone who's argued before the Supreme

662
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: Court so many times, you coped with the loss of

663
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: Justice Ginsburg and the the kind of steam rolling of

664
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: the Barrett confirmation. What what was that time? Like? Um,

665
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, look, I think it was really hard, and

666
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the Justice's fault. You know, either

667
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: the nominees or the people who are on the Court now,

668
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: as much as it is the Senators and in particular

669
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell, who will do anything in order to get

670
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: their Supreme Court nominees through or to block qualified people

671
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: like Marrick Garland from even having a hearing. And what

672
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: they have done is put the Supreme Court in the

673
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: crosshairs of a political attack because they don't care about

674
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: the institution. They just care about winning. And that is

675
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: so so horrible, and I you know, I think the

676
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 1: Court is diminished in that process because of what these

677
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: Republican senators have done. And I've now had the chance

678
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: to argue I guess three cases since Justice Ginsburg passed away,

679
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: And honestly, Sophia, I'm just glad that the arguments this

680
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: year have been virtual, because, like I know, I would

681
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: cry if just looking at her seat and her not

682
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: being there like at argument. Like you know, we all

683
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: know that she's just you know, fierce defender and so on,

684
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: but you know, an argument, she would just go after

685
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: you so hard, like on anything, and like she's so precise,

686
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: just incredibly incredibly precise, and as you can tell, not

687
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: that precise though, Like it would be a real challenge,

688
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: but also just such a privilege to be standing there

689
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: and arguing before her. And you know, as I think

690
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: about going forward, one of the things I'm most worried

691
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: about is this Mississippi abortion case, which is going to

692
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: be heard next year by the Supreme Court, which for

693
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: the first time in modern in our modern life, is

694
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: putting the question of Roe versus Wade squarely before the

695
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: Supreme Court and whether it should be overruled. So in

696
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: this Mississippi case. Mississippi passed a law that said basically,

697
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: restrict the restricted abortion if it's after fifteen weeks. And

698
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: now there are other states like Texas trying to get

699
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: in and trying restricted after even six weeks. Um and

700
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: ro versus Wade basically said you could only restrict if

701
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: you were a state abortion after the point of viability,

702
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: which is about the twenty four week This is a

703
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: big change. Now. I want everyone to be clear as

704
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: to what happens if ro versus Wade is overruled. It's

705
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: not the Supreme Court saying abortion is illegal and criminal.

706
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: It's rather saying states can pass those laws making abortion

707
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: criminal and legal if illegal, if they have the political

708
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: ability to do so. So what that means is not

709
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: in every state, like you're in California, unlikely that you'll

710
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: see an effect of the Supreme Court this asion in California.

711
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 1: But if you're in a southern state you would. And yes,

712
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: maybe some people, some women in those states will have

713
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: the ability to travel to other states. But you know

714
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: that's going to very very much by consequence, by by economics,

715
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: and so what we are talking about here is the

716
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: very possible, very realistic possibility that abortion is going to

717
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: be very significantly curtailed reproductive rights by the Supreme Court

718
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: next year. And obviously, if Justice Ginsburg were there, you

719
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: would have the most powerful, passionate defender of reproductive justice imaginable.

720
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: But she's not. And so as a result, I do

721
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: think we need to be thinking right now about what

722
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: we can do. And the thing we can do is

723
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: there's an act right now pending in Congress that would

724
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: change the game that would basically make these state laws

725
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: that restrict abortion in violation of ROVERSUS way. They'd make

726
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: them illegal, and they would it's what's called preemption power.

727
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: So it's basically like right now, individual states can't regulate vaccines.

728
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: That's done at the federal level. So if a state

729
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: like Texas wanted to say, oh, these vaccines have microchips

730
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: and it and ban it, you can't because the federal

731
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: government supreme and pre empts it sweeps away contrary state laws.

732
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: They can do this about abortion right away. They can

733
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: do it tomorrow and eliminate all of these state laws,

734
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: and they can do it by a simple majority vote

735
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: in the House. And this would be Congress and and

736
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: then the Supreme Court Sophiet would have nothing they could

737
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: do to stop it. So all we need is a

738
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 1: simple majority vote in the House and Senate. We don't

739
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 1: need the Supreme Court, and we can guarantee reproductive justice

740
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: for everyone. And so this bill has been supported by

741
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: you know, a whole variety of different senators like Kristen

742
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: Cinema and Amy Klovichar and Dick Durban, people like that.

743
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's where the conversation should

744
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: be right now, and it's a very concrete thing that

745
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: listeners can do is to urge your senators to vote

746
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: for this bill. Again, it's just so odd to me

747
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: that this is an issue we keep running into when

748
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: we understand that reproductive choice is health care, that pregnancy

749
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: is actually one of the most life threatening things a

750
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 1: woman can do. And I say that as a person

751
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: who can't wait to be a parent. But you know,

752
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't lost on me when I was studying from

753
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: my show, which you were talking to me about before

754
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: we started recording, to play a cardiothoracic surgeon. The number

755
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: one cause of the orctic dissection in women under forty

756
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: is pregnancy. The actual life threatening experience of that condition

757
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: gets really swept under the rug because we all love

758
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: pictures of babies and cute ads with little stuffed animals

759
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 1: and little baby clothes. There's like nobody who's more into

760
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: babies than I am. So I get why we're so attached.

761
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: But what I don't understand is why we don't trust

762
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: women and their families and their doctors to make their

763
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: own health decisions. I don't understand why we pretend, or

764
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: the right rather pretends to care in any way about children,

765
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: because the moment if fetus is born and becomes a

766
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: real life baby, they vote against their well being. Every

767
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: time you have a Trump staffer Jason Miller giving an

768
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: abortion pill to his mistress in a smoothie because he

769
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: didn't want to deal with the fact that he knocked

770
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: up somebody who wasn't his spouse. These are egregious differences

771
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: in what we say versus what we do, and that's

772
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: what really drives the frustration home for me. There's that

773
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: famous saying that if men could get pregnant, you can

774
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: get an abortion at every gas station in America, and

775
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: the the very clear your desire to simply control and

776
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: dominate women's ability to make choices about their lives, their careers,

777
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: their finances, and their families. Feels incredibly clear to me

778
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: when we talk about this. So I'm heartened to hear

779
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: about this bill, and I'm I'm very curious. As things

780
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: get more and more politicized and the sides get more

781
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: and more fomented against each other, what do you think

782
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: is the way to pierce this conversation with some sanity

783
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: and some facts. Yeah, so I completely agree with you

784
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: that at least a good chunk of the abortion restrictions

785
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: are not motivated by so called pro life things, but

786
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: by a desire to control people, and in particular to

787
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: control women. So I think you've put your finger on

788
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: a big part of this movement. And you had a

789
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: tweet just recently which I think brings home this point

790
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: and also kind of what we can do about it.

791
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: And you said something like, I'm not a mother yet,

792
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: but I think about this all the time, and you

793
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: were talking about a school shooting, and um, you know,

794
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: in that tweet, I saw both your desire to have children,

795
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: which you're just sarking about a moment ago, but your

796
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: fears about it, and and about a political party that

797
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually often care about life I mean, if

798
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: they cared about life, they wouldn't be saying you can

799
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: get a handgun like candy like in Texas right now.

800
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: They just made it so you don't even need a permit,

801
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, like I mean, you just get a handgun.

802
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: And that isn't pro life, not even close. And I think, actually,

803
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: you know what you did there, and drawing attention to

804
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: that dichotomy is so important because people can get wrapped

805
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 1: up that nobody wants to attack anyone for their religious views.

806
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: I get that, but sometimes these aren't about religious views,

807
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: they're about other things. And in exposing that is really

808
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: really important. And I just would say, you know, on guns,

809
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: I think this is intrinsically even apart from this conversation,

810
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: it's time a pro life or not. It's a very

811
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: very scary time. We have a Supreme Court that, for

812
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,399
Speaker 1: the first time in two hundred years, recognized an individual

813
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: right to bear arms back in two thousand and eight

814
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: and is now poised next year to consider whether to

815
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: ban any restrictions on the carrying of firearms in the

816
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: New York case, and I have the companion case out

817
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 1: of Hawaii, which is about the open carrying of firearms

818
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: which even though it is a very conservative court, agreed

819
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: that Hawaii and all the other states could have such laws.

820
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: But this US Supreme Court is, you know, taken this case,

821
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: and there's a big fear that it's going to really

822
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: change the landmark of even existing gun control regulation, which

823
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: is fairly tepid as it is. But make it even

824
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: easier to carry a gun than it is now. Um

825
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: into openly carry it or to carry it in a

826
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: concealed way is the New York cases. And somehow we've

827
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 1: just kind of started to go overboard on some things

828
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: which just don't have any common sense behind them whatsoever.

829
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 1: So I just found like your discussion of this even

830
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: to send a few characters, very moving to me. And

831
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: I think more of us need to really talk about

832
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: these fears that we have, which are not irrational. When

833
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: you see how many shootings there are and how many

834
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: people die, I mean, the number of mass shootings are

835
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: breathtaking and terrifying, and then you see, to your point,

836
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: what happens when people are just allowed to carry weapons

837
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: with them. I mean, there was a case which I

838
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: actually do believe was in Texas this week. A father

839
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: pulled his gun in a road rage incident, did not

840
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: shoot the other driver who he was threatening with the gun,

841
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: but upon getting back in his vehicle, shot his own

842
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: nine year old son in the chest. And all I

843
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: can think is that guy had no business having a

844
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: gun on him, and if it was at home, locked

845
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: up safely, he could have gotten as mad as he

846
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: wanted and screamed and yelled and like given the guy

847
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: the bird and done all the things that you know,

848
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: plenty of people have done at their worst moment on

849
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: the road, But a kid wouldn't be in critical condition.

850
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: And the fact that the legislature in that state is

851
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: not going to charge that man for shooting his own

852
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: child is a very scary to me signal of how

853
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: far into the absurd this argument has gotten. You know,

854
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: I thought that Pete Buda had made such a great

855
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: point during the Democratic primary. Seventeen of the candidates came

856
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 1: to the Iowa State Fair for the every Town Gun

857
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: Sends for him, and I was very honored to help

858
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: with the event and to speak there. And he said,

859
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: you know, everybody says we have a right to bear

860
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: arms and you know, defend ourselves against the Turanna government.

861
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 1: There shouldn't be a line and He's like, well, I'm

862
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: a veteran of war, and you shouldn't be carrying the

863
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: gun I was carrying in a war zone, he said,

864
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: And there is, in fact a line you're not allowed

865
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: to own a Predator drone. You don't get to have that.

866
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: The U. S. Military does, but you don't. I think

867
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: the time for citizens should have the weapons the military

868
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: has is over. And and it was. It was incredible

869
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: because he made people laugh at at a day where

870
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: during a day where we were talking about things that

871
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: were not funny, but he cracked the veneer of the

872
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: of that sort of you know, vibrating outrage and just

873
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: made people realize that this is ridiculous this conversation. And

874
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: and you know, when of America supports a federal background

875
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: check system, I don't understand why we can't get this done.

876
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 1: And you know, it's also so interesting in the park,

877
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: see because Republicans always say, oh, we believe in the

878
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: founders intent of the Constitution and it's got to be

879
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: strictly construed. Well, the founders never thought you had a

880
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: right to it, you know, a R fifteen, a machine

881
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: gun or something like that. Their idea of a gun

882
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: was a musket. That like took like think exactly, it

883
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: took like three minutes to load. You had to push

884
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: the gunpowder in and you know everything else. I mean,

885
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: it was not these kinds of things. But then all

886
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: of a sudden they want to throw out founders intent

887
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: and the like, and and just one kind of cool,

888
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: kind of logeek thing for your listeners. Right now, there's

889
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: a whole new field and constitutional law that's developed over

890
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: the last few years, enabled by modern technology, and it

891
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: uses like linguistics and precision like databases. And what they

892
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: do is they dump all of the newspapers, all the

893
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: commentary about words like that were used at the founding

894
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: in in you know, editorials and the like. So they

895
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 1: look at what is a militia in the phrase well regulated?

896
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: Militia in the Secondment was well regulated. And so these

897
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: scholars now kind of access to all these databases and

898
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: they've gone back and looked at it, and they've basically

899
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: just debunked the idea that the Second Amendment is an

900
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: individual right. It was the right of the militia and

901
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: it required regulation. And that's all stuff that's newly available

902
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: to us because of modern technology. But nonetheless, you still

903
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: have Conservatives saying, on the one hand, strict intent, founders intent,

904
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: but then when it gets a result, they don't like,

905
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: oh then we never hear about that whatsoever. Same thing

906
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: with like a furn of action which may come to

907
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, you know next year. Yeah, the Harvard case, right, yes, exactly.

908
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: And so you know there's the equal Protection clause, which

909
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: is guarantee the protection and all the laws. But we

910
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: know at the time in the sixty when it was passed,

911
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: they definitely thought you could have different and extra rights

912
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,720
Speaker 1: for African Americans. At the time. The whole Freedman's Bureau

913
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: is all about that. So they have been pretend, oh no,

914
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: we can't care about founders intent then. So it's just

915
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: it's a game that's been used for when it suits them,

916
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: they trot out these tropes. But when it purts left,

917
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: then they're like, oh, yes, we believe in our methodology.

918
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean, just this morning, the day you and I

919
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: are recording this. This morning, Mitch McConnell said on camera,

920
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: by the way, he's so brazen that he would never

921
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 1: allow if he got the Senate back, he would never

922
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: allow Biden to fellow Supreme Court seat. After what he

923
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: did for and it's it is so infuriating, and it

924
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 1: it honestly, and you know, I think he was such

925
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: a phenomenal president, but it it makes me so mad

926
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: that Obama didn't fight harder to demand Merrick Garland get

927
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: a seat. It makes me so mad that that the

928
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: left has been defanged at the executive level and and

929
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: and at every level beneath it, you know, in the Senate,

930
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,439
Speaker 1: in the Congress, it's like, what is happening that they

931
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: keep bringing boozies to knife fights and we're like standing

932
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: there with our little blades going we can't figure out

933
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: why we can't get a bipartisan solution. I'm like, get

934
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: over it and start doing your job, like you know,

935
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: we got. We got every branch for a reason, because

936
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: people want to see action. They want change, They want

937
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: better economic policies. We want to have a thriving middle class,

938
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 1: not just a few you know, autocratic billionaires. We want

939
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: to see environmental protections, which by the way, benefit conservative

940
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: hunters and leftists climate scientists. Like it's for everyone, and

941
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: and this all of this stuff coming up, you know,

942
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: when you talk about it gun control and affirmative action

943
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: and abortion and and even the Republicans blocking the one

944
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: six Commission. I just I feel afraid that they're going

945
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: to bully us into the ground on on all of

946
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: this progress that's been so hard one in the last decades.

947
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: I share a lot of those fears. I mean, you know,

948
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell doesn't care about it stitutions, he doesn't care

949
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: about democracy, doesn't care about government, doesn't care about the

950
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And so for him to say I'm just

951
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: not going to let any nominee through, no matter who

952
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,359
Speaker 1: they are, which is what he already did once, is

953
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: just so horrific. And you know, when he blocked Garland,

954
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: that was very consequential because Garland was going to replace

955
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: Justice Scalia, who had passed away in February of sixteen. UM.

956
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: If Garland had replaced Scalia would be the first time

957
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 1: in our lifetime since nineteen I think seventy two, when

958
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had five of the nine justices appointed

959
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: by Democratic president. So that was a big game changer

960
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: for our entire lives. The Supreme Court has been dominated

961
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: by Republican appointees, so it really mattered. And so now

962
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: McConnell is saying, oh, now it's by the way six

963
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: to three in terms of Republican appointees to the Supreme Court.

964
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: And now you have McConnell saying, well, I'm going to

965
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 1: try and lock it in permanently and not get anyone confirmed.

966
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: And I think there's only one thing that should be

967
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 1: talked about now in response to that, which is, okay, McConnell,

968
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: if you're not going to pack anyone, if you're not

969
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: allow anyone through two, then you're basically saying to us

970
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: DEM's we have one year left to get the job done,

971
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 1: and you know, because we don't know who's gonna win,

972
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: and that means going to a larger Supreme Court, not none,

973
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: but eleven or thirteen to pay to make them pay

974
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: for this monkey around with our constitutional order that they

975
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: have levied. And you know, I'm the last person to say,

976
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, I want court packing or anything like that,

977
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 1: because you know, the Spreme Court generally works well as

978
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: an institution. But what McConnell is doing here is forcing

979
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: the Democrats to do that because he's playing our ball.

980
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: And as you say, you know, you can't just bring

981
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: a feather to this knife fight. You've got to actually

982
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: bring something, and you've got to make him understand that

983
00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: these actions have serious consequences. And what's frustrating is that

984
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: all the work we've done, uh, you know, to advance

985
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: voter registration, all of the education around elections, all of

986
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: the activism of so many groups, he's essentially saying he

987
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: won't allow the will of the people. He's ignoring the

988
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: eighty one million of us who voted for these policies.

989
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: And it does make me curious as we see all

990
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: of these bills around the country being put forth by

991
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 1: conservatives to restrict voting rights, voter suppression, which people are

992
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: calling the new Jim Crow, what exactly is being considered

993
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: on the state and federal level, And how can those

994
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: of us who are alarmed by this very un American

995
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: undemocratic trend, how can we get involved to let lawmakers

996
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: know that this is unacceptable. It's such a great question

997
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: because the modern Republican Party is basically an outied democracy party.

998
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: They're just afraid of letting people and what they're trying

999
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: to do is restricted. And the Mitch mcconnells of the

1000
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: world pat themselves on the back because they say, oh, look,

1001
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: we didn't let the one six insurrection happen. Oh, look,

1002
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: we didn't support Donald Trump's lost crazy lawsuits over the election,

1003
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: although many of them of course did, particularly in the House. Um,

1004
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: but that's such a low bar, the fact that they

1005
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: didn't support the insurrection. I'm sorry, that's not gonna get

1006
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: me any that are going to get them any points

1007
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: with me or anyone else. And so what they've done

1008
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: since in in now twelve different states have passed since

1009
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: the election, have passed twenty two different laws that have

1010
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: restricted the ability to vote. And they do all sorts

1011
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: of things. They like, you know, remove ballot boxes from

1012
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: poorer neighborhoods, They make it harder to have early voting,

1013
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: they require more onerous forms of I D all sorts

1014
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: of stuff. And the problem is that we now don't

1015
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: have the tool that we've had for most of our

1016
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: lifetime to say, guard against this, because in nine Congress

1017
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: passed the Voting Rights Act, and Section five of the

1018
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act said before any state or locality could

1019
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: change any of its voting rules, even where a ballot

1020
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: box was, they had to get it pre cleared by

1021
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: the Justice Department in Washington, d c. Or by a

1022
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: federal court to just say, hey, there's no downside to

1023
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: minority voting. There's no retrogressive effect. And right after President

1024
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: Obama one, I was sent in to defend that law

1025
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court, and I wanted eight to one

1026
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court um and Congress had just re

1027
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: ratified that section five of the Voting Rights Act four

1028
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty one to three in the House and

1029
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: zero in the Senate, overwhelmingly Republicans and Democrats believed in

1030
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: the right to vote back then, and then in the

1031
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: Supreme Court flipped and reversed its position five to four

1032
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: in a case called Shelby County, which is just to

1033
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: go back to Justice Ginsburg for a second, one of

1034
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: her greatest descents, one of her greatest written opinions is

1035
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: that case. And what the Supreme Court said is you

1036
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: can't do that. You can't isolate out Southern states basically

1037
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: and make them pre clear they're voting restrictions. So now

1038
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 1: we don't have that anymore, We don't have a real

1039
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: effective check whenever these states passed these things and so pending.

1040
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sure some of your listeners have

1041
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: heard about the John Lewis Voting Rights Act or HR one.

1042
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: You know, four of the People Act. These are different

1043
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: ways to try and restore those provisions of make we

1044
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: make them even stronger than they were before. And I

1045
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: think they're essential because like, and this used to be

1046
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: something every American agreed on, as they say, four twenty

1047
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: one to three in the House, zero in the Senate.

1048
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: Just have people have the right to vote. You know, like, look,

1049
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: if if you're so afraid, if your entire mandate is

1050
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: to basically make it harder to people to vote for

1051
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: people to vote, that says something about your policies, It doesn't,

1052
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: you know. So they're really afraid, and that's their strategy. Um,

1053
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: I don't think it will work. I think that one

1054
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: way or another, these John Lewis Act will get passed

1055
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: and it's going to have a profound effect on these

1056
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: games that are being played. Do we have to end

1057
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: the filibuster to get any of this done? Well, uh,

1058
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, you might or might not. I mean, my

1059
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,479
Speaker 1: view is that the filibuster, which requires sixty votes now

1060
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: by kind of Senate custom in order to get anything

1061
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: passed through the Senate, shouldn't apply to things like voting,

1062
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: because the whole idea behind a voting rights bill is

1063
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,919
Speaker 1: to expand the number of people who can vote. Um,

1064
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 1: and to have an anti majoritarian rule like the filibuster

1065
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: come in and block that, to me is fundamentally inconsistent

1066
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: with what democracy is all about. Do you want to

1067
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: have a filibuster for something like, you know, whether it

1068
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: to be National Turkey Day or something. Okay, fine, I

1069
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: have no problem with that, but but you know, and

1070
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: something as fundamental as the right to vote, it seems

1071
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: to me the height of irony to have a small

1072
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: minority of people be able to block the majority from

1073
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: being able to vote. Um, that's just you know. That's

1074
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: again when we think about what's the Declaration of Independence about?

1075
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: One of the big values behind the Declaration of independence,

1076
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: no one is about the law. Another one is that

1077
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: idea of the right to vote. No taxation without representation,

1078
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: and right now their whole heck of a lot of

1079
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: people who effectively have no representation and yet taxation. How

1080
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 1: do you think this moves forward? How? How do you

1081
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: think it's possible to have a filibuster over certain things

1082
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: and not over the things that are really pressing for democracy?

1083
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: What what kind of legal change would be required for that? Well,

1084
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: it's not as much legal change as political It requires

1085
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: basically mentioned to say, hey, you know, this bill about

1086
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: your thing has gotten out of control. And it can

1087
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: get out of control in a limited instance, like trying

1088
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: to block the Voting Rights Act, or in a procedural way,

1089
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: because like the filibuster again considers talking about original intent,

1090
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: founders and so on. The original filibuster was not like, oh,

1091
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: you just wake up and forty people say I'm not

1092
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: gonna let that through. You actually had to go and

1093
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: speak on the Senate floor and talk and talk. It

1094
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 1: was a speaking filibuster, and of course even people in Washington,

1095
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 1: d c. Run out of things to say, and so

1096
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: it was limited by basically the human condition. But now

1097
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: it's just like this just automatic, like forty people don't

1098
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: want it, It won't go through um. And so you

1099
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 1: can either yeah, so you could either return to what

1100
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: it used to be or you can carve out certain

1101
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: things from it, like you know they've already, by the way,

1102
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: the Republicans have already carved out Supreme Court nominations from it.

1103
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 1: You know, all three of President Trump's nominees to the

1104
01:03:56,040 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, Gorsas, Kavanaugh, and Barrett all but they broke

1105
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: the filip They none of them had a filibuster proof majority.

1106
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: I think the highest number had fifty five or so

1107
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: votes for it for for the candidates. So but they

1108
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,479
Speaker 1: the Republicans and said, oh, we don't need to bother

1109
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 1: with a filibuster for that. Now, there's probably nothing more

1110
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: important than who you nominate to the Supreme Court. So

1111
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: if that isn't subject to the filibuster, it's very hard

1112
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: for me to see how the voting Rights Acts should

1113
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: be subject to it. That feels really fair. That actually

1114
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: makes me feel hopeful that we might be able to

1115
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: get some of these things done. And I want that.

1116
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I recall that last time you were here,

1117
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: you said you still feel hopeful about our democracy. Do

1118
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: you still have that hope? Is there more of it?

1119
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: Perhaps now? I do. I do have more hope. I mean,

1120
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: I think, first of all, we've just seen over the

1121
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: last five months in experiment and government working. I mean,

1122
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: you just think about the number of vaccines in our

1123
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: arms and in our loved ones arms, and our community's arms.

1124
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: And it's not just you know, wealthy communities, it's you know,

1125
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: it's all across the land. Maybe not perfectly equally, of course,

1126
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 1: but it's still a remarkable achievement, not just of science

1127
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 1: but of government, of good government. And I think we're

1128
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: seeing a justice department that's starting to be fairer and

1129
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 1: do the right thing. And that's also true with progressive

1130
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: prosecutors at the state and local level. Illinois just getting

1131
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: rid of cash bail, for example, that's just remarkable. So

1132
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 1: I am optimistic about that, but I do think there

1133
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: are stumbling books. And I don't know Senator Mansion. I've

1134
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 1: never met him, and I have every reason to believe

1135
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: he's very principled about this stuff. But that's why I

1136
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 1: think everyone needs to have their him hear your voice,

1137
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: because this man now holds the fate. Basically, is a

1138
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: majority of the country going to be able to speak

1139
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: and get their legislation through or are we going to

1140
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 1: be subject to the tyranny of the minority. And if

1141
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: people let him know that the majority rule is the

1142
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: fundamental ground well in our American government and that he's

1143
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: in the way, maybe again, you don't get rid of

1144
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: the filibuster entirely, but you do at least carve it

1145
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 1: out for things that really matter, starting with Supreme Court appointments,

1146
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: which the Republicans already did and moving beyond that to

1147
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: voting and maybe some other things. That feels great. I

1148
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: feel like we should organize a campaign around that. You're

1149
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,919
Speaker 1: the campaign type. I don't know how to do that.

1150
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: I'll make I'll make a couple of calls. I am.

1151
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: I get excited when when you outline pathways to progress

1152
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: because it it does reinvigorate me to feel like it's possible,

1153
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: to feel like there's hope to be had, and I

1154
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: think we need that, especially when we are demanding transparency

1155
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: and we're asking ourselves to be honest about, you know,

1156
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: the threats ahead. I think true progress comes with honesty,

1157
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: and if I may, it makes me think a bit

1158
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,440
Speaker 1: about something that that isn't about the legal system, but

1159
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: rather is more personal. Last time you joined me on

1160
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: the show, I asked you my favorite question. I asked

1161
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: you what in your life as a work in progress?

1162
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 1: And you actually gave two answers, and I'd love to

1163
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: check in on those. The first was for your personal

1164
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: life and was about balance and I'm wondering how you're

1165
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 1: doing with that, and and the other was American democracy.

1166
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: You you talked about seeing it as a work in progress.

1167
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: So how are you balancing your personal life and American democracy?

1168
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: My friend? Thank you for the questions. Um, the balance is, uh,

1169
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, maybe going a little bit better, not not great.

1170
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 1: I have to say, Um, you know, I felt like

1171
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: the last year there's just been so much to do

1172
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 1: and so much important stuff, and like, you know, I

1173
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,919
Speaker 1: just said this to myself right after Donald Trump won.

1174
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,959
Speaker 1: The next day after the election in Sten, I looked

1175
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: at myself in the mirror and honestly said, it sounds hokey,

1176
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 1: But I said to myself, I never want you to

1177
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: look in the mirror and go to sleep and not

1178
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 1: say did you do everything you can to stand up

1179
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: for people and protect against this threat? And that continued

1180
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: after the election for a bit, but I'd like to

1181
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 1: you know, I'm starting I'm exercising every day now. So

1182
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: that's that's that's a plus. Um, you know that's post election,

1183
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: you know, So that's that's good. So that part is

1184
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 1: going pretty well. In terms of the American democracy thing. UM,

1185
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: I have spent the last year developing this TV show.

1186
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 1: Hopefully it will happen with Rob Reiner and Jordan Clapper

1187
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 1: and some others, and UM, I'm optimistic that that can

1188
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 1: be part of our contribution to the next generation, to

1189
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 1: trying to really reach people and to celebrate the greatness

1190
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: of our constitution and our way of life, and to

1191
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: tell some stories. Some are painful stories too, as there

1192
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: are in all great families and all great stories, there

1193
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: are bad moments, and not to hide them, but to

1194
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,560
Speaker 1: learn from them. M Yeah, that feels so so important.

1195
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: Anything else you want to add another work in progress

1196
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 1: to the list or those really covering your base. That's

1197
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: it for this season, but have me back and we'll see, okay,

1198
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: perfect in season three, we'll see what else is in

1199
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 1: the mix. Oh, thank you, Thank you so much, Neil.

1200
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: I just appreciate your candor your expert to use your

1201
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 1: intellect and your inspiration. Really, thank you so much. I'm

1202
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: real honor