Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Changed listeners, It's maya. New episodes of
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans are coming your way this October.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, I wanted to share an episode that
Speaker 1: I returned to again and again. It's a conversation I
Speaker 1: had with the world renowned chef Christine Haw and I
Speaker 1: featured her story in my ted talk earlier this summer.
Speaker 1: When Christine was twenty four, a rare neurological condition left
Speaker 1: her legally blind, and she was concerned she might never
Speaker 1: be able to cook again. Her story shows the power
Speaker 1: of imaginative courage in the face of change. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy it.
Speaker 2: I remember noticing that the vision in one of my
Speaker 2: eyes was blurry, and I assumed it was my contact lens.
Speaker 2: I took it out and I cleaned it, popped it
Speaker 2: back in. I still realized that my eyesight was blurry,
Speaker 2: so I ended up going to an optometrist and he
Speaker 2: checked out my eye, did all the usual eye exams,
Speaker 2: concluded that it was actually something neurological. My brain was fine,
Speaker 2: but the nerve tissue that connects the eye to the
Speaker 2: brain transmitting the image that my eye was taking in
Speaker 2: was on the Fritz.
Speaker 1: That's Christine Hat describing a rare neurological condition that caused
Speaker 1: her vision to rapidly deteriorate and left her legally blind
Speaker 1: by age twenty four. Christine had to relearn how to
Speaker 1: navigate so much in her life, the ins and outs
Speaker 1: of her home, opening mail, and cooking food for herself.
Speaker 1: Making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, which had once
Speaker 1: been so straightforward for her, now felt like a daunting task.
Speaker 2: I noticed that when I put the jelly on the
Speaker 2: slice of bread, and all of the jelly got all
Speaker 2: over the counter. It dripped down my arm. When I
Speaker 2: tried to line the two slices of bread together like
Speaker 2: the sandwich seemed not perfect. And I remember being very
Speaker 2: frustrated with myself, throwing that sandwich away and just telling myself,
Speaker 2: I don't know how I'll be independent again. I don't
Speaker 2: think I'll be able to ever cook again.
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, Christine did cook again, and she's found her
Speaker 1: independence again. Today. Christine's a world renowned chef who goes
Speaker 1: by the nickname the Blind Cook. She won season three
Speaker 1: of the hit reality TV show Master Chef in twenty twelve,
Speaker 1: and she's written a New York Times best selling cookbook
Speaker 1: and owns two restaurants in Houston, Texas. On today's episode,
Speaker 1: a blind woman becomes a master chef and redefines what
Speaker 1: independence means to her. Along the way, I'm Maya Shunker
Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, A show
Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the
Speaker 1: face of a big chain. Christine Ha grew up in
Speaker 1: a Vietnamese American family, and she loved the traditional dishes
Speaker 1: her mom would cook for her. When Christine got to college,
Speaker 1: she was eager to recreate some of her mom's recipes
Speaker 1: to reconnect with her Vietnamese heritage and also to feel
Speaker 1: close to her mom, who had died of cancer when
Speaker 1: Christine was thirteen. The more Christine cooked, the more she
Speaker 1: realized just how much she loved it, the recipes and
Speaker 1: the experience of sharing food with her friends and family,
Speaker 1: so she turned it into a full on hobby. But
Speaker 1: that all changed for Christine when she was diagnosed with
Speaker 1: neuromielitis optica in her early twenties. She experienced blurry vision,
Speaker 1: numbness in her arms and legs, partial paralysis, and seizures.
Speaker 1: While medication would help with many of these symptoms, doctors
Speaker 1: told her to expect severe and permanent vision lie loss.
Speaker 1: I asked Christine to share what it was like to
Speaker 1: receive this news.
Speaker 2: I was very fearful. I felt very alone because at
Speaker 2: the time, I was in my early twenties, and of
Speaker 2: course most of my friends were not experiencing that. None
Speaker 2: of them I really knew how to deal with chronic illness,
Speaker 2: vision loss, those types of things. I think when you're
Speaker 2: in your twenties, you assume you're invincible and you don't
Speaker 2: think you're going to be dealing with stuff like that
Speaker 2: until you're much much older. So I felt very alone
Speaker 2: in what I was experiencing, and no one could really relate,
Speaker 2: And so in my head, I was thinking, why are
Speaker 2: my friends not caring as much as I do about
Speaker 2: what I'm going through? Or why are they still able
Speaker 2: to laugh and do normal everyday things and feel like
Speaker 2: that's okay when I can't.
Speaker 1: Can you say more? You mentioned that you felt socially isolated,
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if you can. I think this is
Speaker 1: so relateable. Well, for so many people who go through
Speaker 1: unexpected and rare challenges right that they don't feel that
Speaker 1: other people can relate to them.
Speaker 2: So it's definitely a grief experience. So earlier in life,
Speaker 2: I had to agree the loss of my mom when
Speaker 2: she passed away when I was young, but it's similar
Speaker 2: in that you go through the same motions. I was
Speaker 2: in denial and then I felt upset that I was
Speaker 2: going through this and other people didn't understand. I felt alone.
Speaker 2: Then I felt sad. I felt at times, not often,
Speaker 2: but at times I felt sorry for myself, like wondering
Speaker 2: why this was happening to me and not somebody else.
Speaker 2: And then I think I had to allow myself to
Speaker 2: sit in that space and feel that sadness and feel
Speaker 2: that loss. I basically allowed myself to pity myself and
Speaker 2: allowed myself to cry about it and ask why is
Speaker 2: this happening to me and tell myself this really sucks.
Speaker 2: And it took some time a lot of thinking and
Speaker 2: just kind of ruminating with my own thoughts in my head.
Speaker 2: It helped me come to the realization that no matter
Speaker 2: what happens, the world is going to keep on moving on,
Speaker 2: so the sun will continue to rise, continue to set
Speaker 2: regardless of what happens. And it is a weird feeling
Speaker 2: and I feel like I've gone through this before. With
Speaker 2: the loss of my mom. Is like you wake up
Speaker 2: the next day and you're like, there are still people
Speaker 2: driving to work, there's still people going to school, there's
Speaker 2: still you know, people are still living their lives, even
Speaker 2: though my life feels like it just got turned upside down.
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned that you had lost your mother
Speaker 1: at a young age. I imagine that this forced a
Speaker 1: kind of independence on you, and I'm wondering whether that
Speaker 1: independent mindset in some ways prepared you for this moment
Speaker 1: of deteriorating vision.
Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that, because I almost thought it
Speaker 2: was the opposite. So, because I lost my mom when
Speaker 2: I was young, I did feel like I had to
Speaker 2: grow up fairly quickly and become very independent and rely
Speaker 2: mostly on myself. And when I lost my mom, I
Speaker 2: realized that you cannot depend on any person in your
Speaker 2: life because in a second that person could be gone
Speaker 2: and then your whole world gets turned upside down. So
Speaker 2: I think for me, losing my mom forced me to
Speaker 2: be independent and not dependent on other people. But actually,
Speaker 2: when I started losing my vision, I had to give
Speaker 2: up independence and I had to depend on people more
Speaker 2: and ask for help for even the most mundane of
Speaker 2: tasks like reading my mail or trying to identify things
Speaker 2: in the refrigerator, or pouring myself a glass of water
Speaker 2: to drink. And so it stripped me of my independence.
Speaker 2: So in a way, I really wasn't prepared for that,
Speaker 2: because losing my mom did make me independent, and then
Speaker 2: losing my vision made made me learn to be dependent again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds like from what you're describing that
Speaker 1: being independent had become a large part of your identity.
Speaker 1: So maybe you were in part grieving a loss of
Speaker 1: independence since you were now going to have to rely
Speaker 1: on people in a way that you hadn't before.
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. I always say the hardest thing about the
Speaker 2: vision loss was the loss of some of the independence
Speaker 2: that I was used to.
Speaker 1: So your vision is slowly deteriorating. Is there a moment
Speaker 1: where maybe it hits you for the first time, this
Speaker 1: is not getting better? You know? In the past, maybe
Speaker 1: I've been able to fight my way through problems that
Speaker 1: this is one I just don't have any chance against it.
Speaker 2: I think I had several moments like that, one of
Speaker 2: which I that really stands out of my head was
Speaker 2: a moment when I had lost some more vision. And
Speaker 2: like I'd mentioned, it was gradual over the years, so
Speaker 2: anytime it would decrease a little bit to a new baseline,
Speaker 2: I would start getting used to that base one be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: well this is I can live with this. I'm getting
Speaker 2: used to it. I can figure out how to still
Speaker 2: walk around without a white cane, or I can enlarge
Speaker 2: the font on my computer to thirty five point font
Speaker 2: and still read my screen or whatnot. And then I
Speaker 2: would as soon as I would get used to that
Speaker 2: new baseline of my vision, it would decrease more and
Speaker 2: I would lose more vision, and I have to feel
Speaker 2: like I would start over. So I remember there was
Speaker 2: one particular time when my vision pretty much decreased to
Speaker 2: the level that it is now, which I describe as
Speaker 2: very very blurry and very washed out colors, and I
Speaker 2: just see some foggy shapes, as though if you were
Speaker 2: to step out of a very very hot shower and
Speaker 2: your mirrors all fogged up and with the steam. That's
Speaker 2: kind of how I see. So it's very very very blurry,
Speaker 2: don't see much color, maybe some slight shapes, but everything's
Speaker 2: foggy and hazy. When it decreased to this level. I
Speaker 2: remember I was living alone at the time, trying to
Speaker 2: make a sandwich for myself, and I thought the easiest
Speaker 2: thing was going to be peanut butter jelly. So I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I could find the bread. It's already
Speaker 2: sliced up. I just pulled the slices out, and I
Speaker 2: would just find the peanut butter by smell, find the
Speaker 2: jelly by smell, and then use a butter knife to
Speaker 2: spread the peanut butter and jelly on the two slices
Speaker 2: of bread. But I think I was in a very
Speaker 2: precarious mental state at that time already. And it's not
Speaker 2: that the sandwich has to be perfect to be edible
Speaker 2: and good, but I noticed that when I put the
Speaker 2: jelly on the slice of bread and all of the
Speaker 2: jelly got all over the counter, it dripped down my
Speaker 2: arm when I tried to line the two slices of
Speaker 2: bread together, like, the sandwich seemed not perfect. And growing
Speaker 2: up too, I'm very much a perfectionist and I still
Speaker 2: sort of am, so I think just not being able
Speaker 2: to make a perfect PEBJ sandwich at that time was
Speaker 2: kind of like the straw that broke the Camel's back,
Speaker 2: and I remember being very frustrated with myself, throwing that
Speaker 2: sandwich away and just telling myself, I don't think I'll
Speaker 2: be able to ever cook again. I don't know how
Speaker 2: I'll be independent again. You know, that's a moment that
Speaker 2: stands out in my head, but I've had many of
Speaker 2: similar moments like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me that in the face of protracted
Speaker 1: vision deterioration. You know, the obvious upside is that it's
Speaker 1: giving you time to adapt to your new world and
Speaker 1: find new habits and restructure your life. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, there is this tortuous aspect that you described,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, you're clearly a highly motivated and
Speaker 1: adaptive person, adaptable person, and at every step you're saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: I got this, I got this, folks, I can I
Speaker 1: can work at this level, and then you're taunted by
Speaker 1: the fact that it just keeps getting worse. And so I imagine, yeah,
Speaker 1: you just kind of want to rip off the band
Speaker 1: aid at a certain point and know what the end
Speaker 1: outcome is.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm always the kind of person too that would
Speaker 2: rather know the bad news than not know. So it's
Speaker 2: all so much more anxiety of not knowing, like, oh,
Speaker 2: will my vision get worse or will I be able
Speaker 2: to do this? You know exactly?
Speaker 1: So where do you go from the peanut butter and
Speaker 1: jelly sandwich moment?
Speaker 2: I allowed myself for however long I needed to feel
Speaker 2: bad about not being able to make a peanut butter
Speaker 2: jelly sandwich. And then slowly I think I just thought
Speaker 2: more about, Okay, well, I didn't get it right that time,
Speaker 2: but when I'm in a better headspace, so let me
Speaker 2: try again. And then I would notice I could incrementally
Speaker 2: improve at little things in the kitchen. I noticed that
Speaker 2: as days went by and weeks went by, and I
Speaker 2: would attempt a little bit more things in the kitchen
Speaker 2: to try to just feed myself. I would be like, oh,
Speaker 2: today I was able to cut an orange and eat
Speaker 2: an orange. And then maybe the next day I was
Speaker 2: able to scramble an egg. Maybe some of it was burnt,
Speaker 2: but I was still able to do an egg. And
Speaker 2: then then a week after that, I was able to
Speaker 2: scramble an egg that was burnt. And then looking back,
Speaker 2: I would notice my progress and the steps forward that
Speaker 2: I was taking. So I had to tell myself, like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: I couldn't do this a week ago, or a month ago,
Speaker 2: or six months ago. And then when you realize that
Speaker 2: you're making progress, I think it helps build confidence, and
Speaker 2: then that confidence gives you the courage to keep trying
Speaker 2: bigger and better things and putting yourself to the challenge
Speaker 2: and realizing that even if you fail the first time
Speaker 2: or make a mistake, you learn from that and you
Speaker 2: reassess and you try again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you mentioned the victory you felt at
Speaker 1: being able to peel an orange, and I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: you can tell me more about how it is you
Speaker 1: had to change your relationship with cooking. You know, at
Speaker 1: the time it was simply a hobby of yours, but
Speaker 1: what was involved in relearning how to cook and navigate
Speaker 1: the kitchen safely.
Speaker 2: It remained a hobby of mine for quite a long time,
Speaker 2: and I was losing my vision in this at the
Speaker 2: same time when I was voraciously teaching myself how to
Speaker 2: cook and reading all sorts of cookbooks and experimenting in
Speaker 2: the kitchen. So each time I would lose a little
Speaker 2: bit more vision and it would decrease to some new level.
Speaker 2: I would have to teach myself again how to accomplish
Speaker 2: the same things in the kitchen, And like I said,
Speaker 2: it was kind of a matter of taking these small
Speaker 2: steps and celebrating these small victories. But eventually I would
Speaker 2: just focus on being able to do things with my
Speaker 2: remaining four senses, and that actually taught me that cooking
Speaker 2: is much more of a multisensory ordeal than we often expect. Like,
Speaker 2: you can definitely get by in the kitchen with your
Speaker 2: sense of touch and your sense of smell and your
Speaker 2: sense of taste. Those things I would say are the
Speaker 2: most important in the kitchen. And yes, it would help
Speaker 2: visually probably to tell if something is cooked in a pan,
Speaker 2: But over the years, with a lot of experience, I'm
Speaker 2: able to tell if something is cooked by the texture
Speaker 2: and how it feels at the end of my cooking utensil,
Speaker 2: or by the smell of garlic. You can tell if
Speaker 2: it's raw, or if it's fragrant, or if it's burnt.
Speaker 2: So just learning over time to rely on my remaining
Speaker 2: four senses much more so than my sense of vision,
Speaker 2: was really how I got back into the kitchen and
Speaker 2: taught myself how to cook a lot of the dishes
Speaker 2: that I'd cooked before. And I actually think with my
Speaker 2: sense of sight out of the picture, I became much
Speaker 2: more of a nuanced cook in the kitchen, and I
Speaker 2: would pay much more attention to the small changes that
Speaker 2: a seasoning would make in a dish, and I'd pay
Speaker 2: much more attention to how things taste in your mouth
Speaker 2: when it comes to temperature and texture. And so I
Speaker 2: think that allowed me to focus more on those aspects
Speaker 2: of food, which helped me in some way become a
Speaker 2: better cook.
Speaker 1: So you end up writing a blog about your experiences
Speaker 1: in the kitchen at a website you create, which is
Speaker 1: called the blindcook dot com, and somewhat unexpectedly, the casting
Speaker 1: crew reality TV show Master Chef catches wind of your
Speaker 1: blog and ends up reaching out to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was a strange one at first because I didn't
Speaker 2: believe it. And I remember I received an email through
Speaker 2: the contact form and they said, Hi, I'm the casting
Speaker 2: producer for a show called Master Chef. It's with Gordon Ramsey,
Speaker 2: it's on Fox. We wanted to see if you would
Speaker 2: like to audition. And I asked my husband and I
Speaker 2: was like, Hey, isn't this name familiar Gordon Ramsey, and
Speaker 2: John's like yeah, that's the chef that's from the UK
Speaker 2: that's on like Hell's Kitchen and all stuff, and he's
Speaker 2: always known for cursing at people blah blah blah. And
Speaker 2: then he was like, Oh, if that's legitimate, you should
Speaker 2: totally go an audition for the show. But we were like,
Speaker 2: is this for real? So at the time, too, I
Speaker 2: was very anonymous, like I'm naturally an introvert and a
Speaker 2: you know, pretty private person. So my blog had no
Speaker 2: pictures of me, didn't have my real name on there.
Speaker 2: I kept it very anonymous so that if you went
Speaker 2: to that blog, you would never know who it was.
Speaker 2: And they reach out just wondering if I was a
Speaker 2: real person, because you know, there were no photos of me.
Speaker 2: There was nothing about my bio really on there except
Speaker 2: I just wrote recipes and what it was like to
Speaker 2: be as someone who's visually impaired. And so I said, uh, okay,
Speaker 2: I will come audition, and you know, I went to
Speaker 2: the open casting call and auditions in Austin and when
Speaker 2: the producers were traveling around the country trying to look
Speaker 2: for of season three cast, and then the rest was
Speaker 2: kind of history.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not going to be history right now. I
Speaker 1: want to hear all. I want to hear all about
Speaker 1: your experience on Master Chef, So you know, I personally
Speaker 1: remember seeing you walking out on a set to make
Speaker 1: your first dish as a competitor in a kitchen that
Speaker 1: was largely unfamiliar to you and that you're not able
Speaker 1: to see. And on top of all that, there's the
Speaker 1: added pressure of making a dish that's going to be
Speaker 1: judged by three of the most famous chefs in the world.
Speaker 1: What was that like, Christine, Like, I can't imagine that
Speaker 1: mounting pressure.
Speaker 2: There's definitely a lot of pressure. It was nerve wracking.
Speaker 2: I mean I was in a space that, you know,
Speaker 2: in a big warehouse, with a lot of people I'd
Speaker 2: never met before, all of the other contestants. I've never
Speaker 2: been familiar with what the entertainment world or television world
Speaker 2: was like, so I had no idea what to expect
Speaker 2: with all these lights, these directors, all these like cameras
Speaker 2: rolling on Dolly's and of course a lot of it
Speaker 2: I couldn't even see, so all I could hear was
Speaker 2: just a lot of noise around me. So it was
Speaker 2: not only stressful knowing that I would have to cook
Speaker 2: a dish for these judges to taste, but stressful because
Speaker 2: I'm in a foreign environment as someone who's visual impaired
Speaker 2: and has no idea what's going on around me except
Speaker 2: with the context clues of what I hear, what I smell.
Speaker 1: Wow, well, I mean, things obviously went very well for
Speaker 1: you after that first dish. You kept advancing through the rounds,
Speaker 1: and such a poignant moment is when Gordon Ramsay said
Speaker 1: your apple pie looked stunning and of course tasted amazing
Speaker 1: and delicious.
Speaker 2: He was just really blown at the fact that I
Speaker 2: totally thought I fed him a pile of rubbish, which
Speaker 2: is now the running joke. So at my restaurants, my
Speaker 2: apple pie that served there as a dessert is called
Speaker 2: the rubbish apple pie because when he asked me, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I think it looks like a pile of rubbish. And
Speaker 2: I only use that word too, because in my head,
Speaker 2: I was like so nervous and I really wanted to
Speaker 2: say it looks like a pile of shit, but then
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I'm on television. I can't use
Speaker 2: that word. So I'm like, naturally, I'm like, oh, he
Speaker 2: must use the word rubbish because he's from there. He's
Speaker 2: from the UK. He's pretty I was like, oh, it
Speaker 2: must look like a pile of rubbish, and you know
Speaker 2: he he told me. He was like, no, it definitely doesn't.
Speaker 2: It looks great. The crust is golden and flaky. And
Speaker 2: then he scraped a knife or a fork on top
Speaker 2: of it to let me here that it actually baked
Speaker 2: to the correct flakiness level. And then he cut out
Speaker 2: a slice of pie that I guess held together and
Speaker 2: then taste it and said it tasted good.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans when we'll hear more from Christine about her
Speaker 1: experience on Master Chef. There was this one moment when
Speaker 1: you were on Master Chef that really affected me, where
Speaker 1: you said you felt your vision impairment was affecting people's
Speaker 1: ability to focus on what mattered most, which was your
Speaker 1: cooking skills.
Speaker 2: I didn't want people to think that what I was
Speaker 2: doing was so great or even better because it was
Speaker 2: someone that's visual impaired. I wanted to compete on the
Speaker 2: same level and be judged as the same level as
Speaker 2: everybody else. While yes, maybe it's going to be harder
Speaker 2: for me to do things because I'm visually impaired. But
Speaker 2: I didn't want that to be my quote unquote handicap.
Speaker 2: I wanted people to focus more and judge me and
Speaker 2: give me true constructive criticism based on my merits in
Speaker 2: the food I was putting up to be judged.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And did you feel that by the end of
Speaker 1: the process that was happening for you?
Speaker 2: I do. I mean it wasn't easy, so coming into it,
Speaker 2: they had to adapt my particular cooking stations so that
Speaker 2: I could use it as a cook who's visually impaired.
Speaker 2: So I needed some assistance in certain ways or adaptations
Speaker 2: that made sense. But it's not like I would ask
Speaker 2: for more time for my challenge or expect like a
Speaker 2: different ingredient, or expect special rules to be made for me.
Speaker 2: So at the beginning, yes, I did feel that insecurity
Speaker 2: that I wasn't sure how I would be treated because
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of people had never expected someone
Speaker 2: who is visually impaired to be able to cook. And
Speaker 2: I remember some people asking me like, well, how are
Speaker 2: you going to cook? Like are you going to stand
Speaker 2: on the side and call out your recipe and have
Speaker 2: your husband? My husband John was there at the time
Speaker 2: to assist me as my sided guide. They were wondering
Speaker 2: if he would do all the cutting and I would
Speaker 2: just be on the sidelines, like telling him what to do.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, in my head, I was dumbfound and
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I'm going to use the knife of course,
Speaker 2: like that would be weird. So there was those kinds
Speaker 2: of questions from people who I think were completely surprised
Speaker 2: to see someone who's visual impaired, or they thought that
Speaker 2: I was like a gimmick that was brought on by
Speaker 2: the producers for just for the ratings. And I was
Speaker 2: also insecure because still in the back of my head,
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I do have a disability. Will that
Speaker 2: will make it harder for me to compete with everyone
Speaker 2: else who's sited. But I think as the competition went on,
Speaker 2: I started understanding what my strengths were, and I started
Speaker 2: playing to those strengths, and I think that's what helped
Speaker 2: me go all the way to that end.
Speaker 1: And what did you feel those strengths were.
Speaker 2: Well, the strength was the fact that I couldn't see.
Speaker 2: I paid much less attention to or and was not
Speaker 2: distracted by what the other contestants were doing. And I
Speaker 2: feel like what happened to some of us at sometimes
Speaker 2: and even I've done it in some of the early
Speaker 2: challenges in my season was I would hear like, oh,
Speaker 2: someone else, so and so next to me is using
Speaker 2: really fancy ingredients or using a very fancy cooking technique,
Speaker 2: and then I would you know, then you would think
Speaker 2: to yourself, oh, maybe what I'm doing is not good enough,
Speaker 2: it's not fancy enough, it's too pedestrian. And then we
Speaker 2: would change our dish that we planned to make halfway through,
Speaker 2: and then by then you only have thirty minutes left
Speaker 2: to achieve your new dish, and then at the end
Speaker 2: you can't finish it, and then you serve up only
Speaker 2: part of a plate. And for me, I think what
Speaker 2: I realized was that these judges have tasted some of
Speaker 2: the best foods in the world, and there's nothing I'm
Speaker 2: going to do going to be like that's probably going
Speaker 2: to blow their minds. So what I'm going to do
Speaker 2: is I'm just going to cook something that I feel
Speaker 2: like eating that I would be happy to eat myself
Speaker 2: or serve my friends and my family, and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: worry about what other people are cooking. I'm just going
Speaker 2: to compete against myself, and as long as I went
Speaker 2: into that kitchen and I was a better cook that
Speaker 2: day than I was the day before, then that's really
Speaker 2: all I could ask of myself. And so I started
Speaker 2: concentrating and focusing only on what I was doing and
Speaker 2: not paying attention to what the other contestants were doing.
Speaker 2: And I think that allowed me to stay more focused
Speaker 2: and know what I was going to cook and follow
Speaker 2: that course and that plan of action, and then I
Speaker 2: was able to finish my dishes on time and follow through.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I would love to revisit an incredibly joyful moment,
Speaker 1: obviously for you, but for so many people around the
Speaker 1: world who are celebrating along with you. What was it
Speaker 1: like to win Master Chef?
Speaker 2: The winner of Master Chef, congratulations Christine. Yeah, my first
Speaker 2: thought was, thank God, this thing is over. It actually
Speaker 2: took me like two days for it to really sink in.
Speaker 2: I think it was the biggest shock I'd experienced in
Speaker 2: my life. And I remember that first night after winning,
Speaker 2: I could not sleep at all, and then it didn't
Speaker 2: really sink in that I'd won the whole thing until
Speaker 2: about forty eight hours later.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there was anyone in particular that you
Speaker 1: heard from after your win that had a particular impact
Speaker 1: on you.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people that have reached out
Speaker 2: over the years, and I was just flooded with different
Speaker 2: stories about people recounting their own struggles, whether it was
Speaker 2: with vision loss or any sort of disability, whether it's
Speaker 2: mental or physical, And all of these people just came
Speaker 2: with their shortcomings to me and be very honest about
Speaker 2: how seeing my story helped them try and turn their
Speaker 2: lives around or pick themselves up. And you know, some
Speaker 2: things in particular all the way from like just young
Speaker 2: children saying that I gave them the courage to try
Speaker 2: out for the soccer team, to someone a woman who
Speaker 2: said that she had been battling depression for many months
Speaker 2: and she couldn't get out of bed, and so she
Speaker 2: was flipping through the TV and then saw me on
Speaker 2: Master Chef and then started following it and watching the
Speaker 2: whole season, and then after that she stopped thinking about
Speaker 2: suicide and left her bed and started cooking again for
Speaker 2: her family. So those sorts of stories, like they're so moving,
Speaker 2: and I still can't fathom the impact that I've been
Speaker 2: able to have on so many people. But I think,
Speaker 2: if anything, I remember on the show, my friend Scott,
Speaker 2: who's one of the contestants, he was like, you realize
Speaker 2: that after the show, even if you don't win, you're
Speaker 2: so much bigger than what this show is. And I
Speaker 2: was just like, oh, shut up, Scott, Like I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what you're tom about. You know, we
Speaker 2: were like getting into the casting van. I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's weird, and even then, like I
Speaker 2: had no idea like the impact my story would have
Speaker 2: on people. And years later, now it's been ten years
Speaker 2: and I still hear people watching the season for the
Speaker 2: first time and my story helping them through whatever it
Speaker 2: is that they're struggling, and knowing that I've been given
Speaker 2: this platform and blessed with this ability to help other
Speaker 2: people just simply by sharing my story or being who
Speaker 2: I am, that is like the biggest gift of all.
Speaker 1: So have you have you internalized what Scott told you?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Do you believe him now?
Speaker 2: I sort of do, but it's still very strange, but
Speaker 2: yes I do. I had no idea like when I yeah,
Speaker 2: it is still weird to me when I think back
Speaker 2: and I guess I just didn't have that outside perspective
Speaker 2: because I'm I just feel like I'm just me, you know,
Speaker 2: And I'm just like Lotti Da, I'm just Christine, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm line, but I just do whatever I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I appreciate your humility. But it's one
Speaker 1: thing to say in the face of adversity that you
Speaker 1: have big dreams, right, It's another thing to put in
Speaker 1: the hundreds of hours of work to actually achieve those dreams,
Speaker 1: to relearn fundamental things that you had taken for granted
Speaker 1: in the early part of your life. That translation is
Speaker 1: what you know. I personally find so impressive about your story,
Speaker 1: and I don't want it to be lost. Just how
Speaker 1: challenging it is to get back into a kitchen or
Speaker 1: to adapt to life in a kitchen where you're losing
Speaker 1: your vision and you are in the presence of danger,
Speaker 1: and you are brave enough to learn how to use
Speaker 1: knives and heat on a stove, and beyond that achieve artistry,
Speaker 1: right like mastery at the highest levels.
Speaker 2: I truly believe when people tell me these things like
Speaker 2: what you just said, Maya, I'm like, honestly, I feel
Speaker 2: like any person that would be put in my position,
Speaker 2: will figure out a way, and you could do the
Speaker 2: same exact thing that I've accomplished if you were put
Speaker 2: in that same position. Because not true. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I used to believe that.
Speaker 2: I think people are much more resilient than they give
Speaker 2: themselves credit for. And I'm for one of them, because
Speaker 2: I used to think. I was like, there's no way
Speaker 2: I can, like I find these goals insurmountable and lo
Speaker 2: and behold like day by day, like you just figure
Speaker 2: out a way, and then I was able to accomplish things.
Speaker 2: But I don't think like I've accomplished like I think
Speaker 2: I just am. I was lucky and that I was
Speaker 2: in the right place at the right time. And yes
Speaker 2: I do work hard, I do concur with that, and
Speaker 2: yes I have some talent, but I don't think I'm
Speaker 2: any more special than the next cook, or the next
Speaker 2: blind person, or the next whoever next to me. We
Speaker 2: always look to other people people and think, oh, they've
Speaker 2: accomplished something we can, But it really comes down to
Speaker 2: how much do you want something and how much you're
Speaker 2: going to prioritize something. And for me, cooking was it
Speaker 2: was it was something I just really really enjoyed, and
Speaker 2: I didn't want to give that up because I lost
Speaker 2: my vision, So I knew I had to find a
Speaker 2: different way to go about it. And part of it
Speaker 2: is cooking as a means of survival. Like I lived
Speaker 2: by myself when I was losing my vision, I had
Speaker 2: to you know, there was no such thing as uber
Speaker 2: eats or deliveries that then that you were easily attainable.
Speaker 2: So I had to figure out a way to make
Speaker 2: food for myself to eat. And you know, it was
Speaker 2: something for me to concentrate on and focus on when
Speaker 2: I was dealing with the vision loss because cooking gave
Speaker 2: me joy and I didn't always want to think about
Speaker 2: the sad things that were happening to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I do find it reassuring and inspiring
Speaker 1: that initially you were reliably underestimating your own resilience, because
Speaker 1: maybe that means so many of us are too.
Speaker 2: That is what I learned about myself is hey, I
Speaker 2: am resilient. You're totally right. It's I don't think people
Speaker 2: realize that, and it was something I had to learn
Speaker 2: as well. When you realize that you are just one
Speaker 2: blip in this world or in this universe, but things
Speaker 2: will still continue to happen in the world around me.
Speaker 2: So I have the choice of either dropping out of
Speaker 2: society and feeling sorry for myself and not contributing to
Speaker 2: the world, or I have the choice of figuring out
Speaker 2: how can I, in spite of the hand that I've
Speaker 2: was dealt with, or in spite of the challenges that
Speaker 2: I'm trying to overcome, how can I pick myself up
Speaker 2: and plug myself back into the society as it continues.
Speaker 1: You've said that if you could get your vision back,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't and I'm wondering, well, one, if you still
Speaker 1: feel that way, and if you can say more about that.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, if I could get my vision back for
Speaker 2: like five minutes or like a day or a week,
Speaker 2: I totally would because I want to know what like
Speaker 2: four K filming looks like. I always hear you know,
Speaker 2: I'm still stuck back and like I don't even know when.
Speaker 2: I don't know what Ariana Grande looks like. I don't
Speaker 2: know what Justin Bieber looks like.
Speaker 1: I do believe that it is a gift to be
Speaker 1: able to see Ariana Grande. I think you could pass
Speaker 1: on Justin Bieber in current form.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of just things that I've happened or
Speaker 2: cars nowadays, I don't know what the Tesla looks like.
Speaker 2: They're just things that all of my friends talk about
Speaker 2: that I feel. I'm just at a loss. I don't
Speaker 2: really I can't fully experience these conversations. So I definitely
Speaker 2: want to see what my friends and my family look
Speaker 2: like today. I don't necessarily want to know what I
Speaker 2: look like, because it's been a long time. You look great.
Speaker 2: But I think it would be really weird for me
Speaker 2: to completely gain my vision back permanently, because I'm so
Speaker 2: used to living the life that I have now, and
Speaker 2: I feel like doing some of the things that I
Speaker 2: do without with that vision, it seems kind of more
Speaker 2: fun or more accomplished in a way that I think
Speaker 2: it would just be weird to have my vision back.
Speaker 1: I want to dig into your relationship with independence today
Speaker 1: because my personal perspective kind of crushing the independence game. Christine. Also,
Speaker 1: it was a huge part of your identity during a
Speaker 1: very formative moment in your life, and so what role
Speaker 1: does independence play in constructing your self identity today?
Speaker 2: Before? If you were to ask me this when I
Speaker 2: was maybe in my teenage years or my early twenties,
Speaker 2: I would say independence is not depending on other people
Speaker 2: and being able to do everything yourself and rely solely
Speaker 2: upon yourself. I think if you ask me now, what
Speaker 2: does independence mean, It's changed for me because I'm not
Speaker 2: going to be unrealistic and deny the fact that I
Speaker 2: cannot drive myself somewhere until you know, we're close to
Speaker 2: having like self driving cars, but until then, I can't
Speaker 2: drive myselflf somewhere independently. So realistically, I don't feel like
Speaker 2: I'm independent in that way, but I'm independent in the
Speaker 2: fact that I'm living the life that I want to live.
Speaker 2: When I want to ask for help, I'm able to
Speaker 2: ask for help and I do it willingly. And then
Speaker 2: also knowing when I don't need help, and doing things
Speaker 2: on my own, even if it's a struggle. Like sometimes
Speaker 2: my husband watches me, like try to open a package
Speaker 2: or do something, and he's just like, why don't you
Speaker 2: just let me do that for you? Because he gets
Speaker 2: frustrated I take ten minutes. But then sometimes I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: I just want to do this on my own, and
Speaker 2: so I will do it because I'm stubborn like that.
Speaker 2: And that's my definition of independence is asking for help
Speaker 2: when you want it or feel like you need it,
Speaker 2: but then also knowing when you want to do things
Speaker 2: on your own, and so basically living the life that
Speaker 2: you want.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my
Speaker 1: conversation with Christine Ha, I'd recommend you listen to a
Speaker 1: conversation I had with psychologist doctor ael At Fischbach. The
Speaker 1: episode is called The Science of Motivation. We'll link to
Speaker 1: it in the show notes. A Slight Change of Plans
Speaker 1: is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker.
Speaker 1: The Slight Changed family includes Tyler Green, our senior producer,
Speaker 1: Jen Guera, our senior editor, Ben Tolliday, our sound engineer,
Speaker 1: Emily Rosstek our producer, and Neia Label our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our theme song and Ginger Smith helped
Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a
Speaker 1: production of Push Industries. So big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee talm Allott and Heather Fame,
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of plans on Instagram
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker see you next week. I'm wondered, Christine,
Speaker 1: what parts of your identity do you feel have stayed
Speaker 1: the same over the years, and what parts have maybe changed?
Speaker 2: I like this question things that I think I've stayed
Speaker 2: the same. I think I'm still the same goofball, I
Speaker 2: still have the same sense of humor. I remember I
Speaker 2: joked with all of the producers or Mastersholm I'm like,
Speaker 2: I said so many witty things and you cut it
Speaker 2: all out like in post production, and they were like, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't have time for everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't silence.
Speaker 2: My humor people.
Speaker 1: I should let you know that every time my editor
Speaker 1: Jen tries to cut a joke from one of my interviews,
Speaker 1: I feel emotionally wounded and deeply deeply offended. I'm like,
Speaker 1: do you not understand that this podcast is a launching
Speaker 1: pad for my future career in comedy? Okay,