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Speaker 1: Body Dams with Joseph scotten More. Probably one of my

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Speaker 1: earliest memories of when I was a kid of watching

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Speaker 1: a movie and I probably should not have been allowed

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Speaker 1: to see it was the original Bonnie and Clyde movie

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Speaker 1: with Warren Beatty and Fade Done Away. Now we have

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Speaker 1: done an episode of body Bags on Bonnie and Clyde.

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Speaker 1: It was done within the last few months. I think,

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Speaker 1: if you get a chance, go back and check that out.

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Speaker 1: But it's not Warren Batty that really sticks in my mind,

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Speaker 1: or certainly Fade done Away. It's probably Gene Hackman, and

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons I enjoyed it. It was one

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Speaker 1: of his early roles and he was so genuine. You know,

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Speaker 1: Fade done Away and Warren Batty are so polished, it's

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Speaker 1: like they are hermetically sealed and kind of broken out.

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Speaker 1: But Gene Hackman was great in that movie, and boy

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Speaker 1: was a bloody because if I remember correctly, I think

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Speaker 1: it was a Sam Peckinpah movie. I might be wrong

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Speaker 1: about that. I can't remember. But today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the death of, in my estimation, one of

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Speaker 1: two of the greatest actors, the other one being Robert

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Speaker 1: Doll and Gene Hackman. But Gene Hackman was found deceased

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Speaker 1: recently in his home along with his wife Betsy, And

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Speaker 1: of course there was a pet dog he loved, German

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Speaker 1: shepherds that was found deceased as well. But we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about this because there's been a lot rumblings

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Speaker 1: in the news about his death and all kinds of

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Speaker 1: things have been thrown about, with people speculating to be

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Speaker 1: speculating as a death investigator as a very very slippery slope.

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Speaker 1: And this man, as far as I'm concerned, deserves the

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Speaker 1: best because he entertained us for so long. He deserves,

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Speaker 1: as well as his wife, the best investigation that could

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Speaker 1: possibly be conducted. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

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Speaker 1: Bodybacks brother Dave Mack joining me as usual. Good to

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Speaker 1: see you, my friend. Good to hang out with you.

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Speaker 1: On a sunny afternoon, beautiful blue sky's cobalt blue, as

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Speaker 1: they say, gentle breeze blowing outside. I had to go

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Speaker 1: sit down for a wild day because at the time

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Speaker 1: of this recording, I have been on air. Now I

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Speaker 1: think I've done fourteen separate hits. Now I've got two

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Speaker 1: more coming up. On the topic of Gene Hackman. But

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Speaker 1: before we get into the death investigation, I started out

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Speaker 1: talking about Bonnie and Clyde, And first off, I hate

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Speaker 1: anything that happens to show Bonnie and Clyde in good

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Speaker 1: light because they were cop killers.

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Speaker 2: They were mobbers, and they just were murderers.

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Speaker 1: That's all they were, both of them. They were. They

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Speaker 1: left a lot of widows and maybe a lot of

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Speaker 1: orphans too, and as they say, there's a special place

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Speaker 1: for those kinds of people. But Gene Hackman was part

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Speaker 1: of that. But that was not my favorite movie. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say something to you right now beforehand,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you you will probably not guess what

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Speaker 1: my absolute favorite appearance that Gene Hackman ever had in

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Speaker 1: a movie. You want to take a guess to go

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Speaker 1: ahead and play. I love Royal Tannenbaum's a Wes Anderson movie.

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Speaker 1: And Bill Murray is now going on and saying that

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Speaker 1: he he made Gene Hackman made life tough for a

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Speaker 1: young director like Wes Anderson. And he said old, old actors,

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Speaker 1: particularly really good ones, have very little patient for young

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Speaker 1: young directors. And those comments were, you know, they they

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Speaker 1: were not meant in a bad way. They were actually complimentary,

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Speaker 1: I think, and it goes to the person that Gene

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Speaker 1: Hackman was. But my favorite of all time because it's

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Speaker 1: complete surprise is young Frankenstein. Gene Hackman actually appears in

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Speaker 1: that movie. You get the impression and yeah, he's a

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Speaker 1: monk living by himself, and he is blind, and of

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Speaker 1: course the monster shows up. The reason I like that

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Speaker 1: role so much, and I don't know, Dave, what's your estimation.

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Speaker 1: He may have been on film maybe four minutes if

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Speaker 1: that long, and that one in that one little role

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Speaker 1: and Peter Ball, who's playing Frankenstein's monster, it's the two

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Speaker 1: of them are absolutely hilarious. He's making he's making stew

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Speaker 1: for him. Of course I think it gets dumped in

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Speaker 1: his lap, the monster's lap. He offers drink, and of

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Speaker 1: course the cigar scene is just absolutely hilarious, and you

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Speaker 1: know it's the monsters storming out of the house. I

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Speaker 1: think he says, I'll make you an espresso and it

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Speaker 1: was so funny. Maybe it's a captina, I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: But the reason I like that is that, unlike a

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Speaker 1: lot of actors, gene Hackman was not one dimensional at all.

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Speaker 1: He could do comedy, he could do hard edge drama.

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Speaker 1: He is something that only comes around, I think once

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Speaker 1: in a generation. I don't know that anybody who's as

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Speaker 1: far as being versatile could compare to him. And finally Dave,

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Speaker 1: you know, he just he said it was an interview

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Speaker 1: that he gave him the mid twenty tens where he said,

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Speaker 1: I had to had to walk away. He said, my

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Speaker 1: heart couldn't take it anymore.

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Speaker 2: Well, he started writing too, you know, he's an author

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Speaker 2: and author at that and he had really started hitting

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Speaker 2: his stride doing that after he was seventy five. He

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Speaker 2: just started, you know, twenty years ago. He just decided

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Speaker 2: time for something different. But I've got a piece of

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Speaker 2: trivia about Gene Hackman. I bet you don't know, and

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Speaker 2: don't He was the original choice to play Mike Brady

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Speaker 2: on The Brady Bunch, and he was beaten out by no.

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Speaker 2: He was beaten out by Robert Reid because Robert Reid

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Speaker 2: had a higher TVQ, because he had spent four years

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Speaker 2: playing the Defenders. Remember where they yes, I do the

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Speaker 2: father so his son have their anyway, And so Robert

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Speaker 2: Reid was under contract at the studio and they decided

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Speaker 2: to go with him as the father of the Brady Bunch,

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Speaker 2: and of course that was Gene Hackman gets the breakout

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Speaker 2: role in Bonnie and Clyde, but it still took time

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Speaker 2: before the French connection rolls around. You know, there's eight

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Speaker 2: years between one and the other in our seven years. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, we could do an entire show just talking

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Speaker 2: about his career. He was much more than just an actor,

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Speaker 2: very an interesting fellow. But he's kind of like that guy.

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Speaker 2: You know, you see people in movies and you think

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Speaker 2: you get an idea of what they must be like,

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Speaker 2: but we have no idea. You know, we only see

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Speaker 2: them in a part that they're playing that may or

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Speaker 2: may not have anything to do with them. A good

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Speaker 2: actor embodies the part. You know. It's like there are

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Speaker 2: no small parts, only small actors kind of thing. And

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Speaker 2: he was brilliant, just yeah, brilliant.

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Speaker 1: I had I had to go back and watch a clip.

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Speaker 1: I have to confess to you, and I hate to

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Speaker 1: say addiction. That's an insult to people that are addicted

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Speaker 1: to things, but I I do. I have a tendency

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Speaker 1: for many years to go back and watch clips from

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Speaker 1: inside the actor studio and when he's sitting there in

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Speaker 1: a chair and he's talking to Lipton. Lipton, you know,

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Speaker 1: he always starts the beginning of these things by saying,

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Speaker 1: tell us about your childhood, you know, and Gene Hackman

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Speaker 1: were a story to Lipton at that time, and he

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Speaker 1: started crying, which is something you don't see Gene Ackman do,

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Speaker 1: and he had to ask the audience for a pause

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Speaker 1: and beg forgiveness. At that point in time, he told

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Speaker 1: the story and he was very young. I hate to

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Speaker 1: stay I think he was eight and his dad abandoned

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Speaker 1: him and his mother, and he says, Lipton said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have insight into what actually happened. He said, first off,

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Speaker 1: tell me, how did that affect you? And he said badly?

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Speaker 1: And he said he said, was life tough? And I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking that's kind of a ridiculous question. Gene Hackman was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was very tough. It was just me and my mother.

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Speaker 1: He said, tell us about the story your dad leaving.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of an odd story. And Gene Hackman said,

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Speaker 1: I was playing down the street with a group of

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Speaker 1: group of guys and he said, just listening to this day,

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Speaker 1: he says, I looked up. My dad merely drives beh

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Speaker 1: in the car, lifts his hand and waves, and that

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Speaker 1: was his dad saying goodbye. And you know, it kind

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Speaker 1: of set him on a course. And let me tell

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Speaker 1: you one more thing, if you like that one, it's

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Speaker 1: set him on a course to where in nineteen forty eight,

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Speaker 1: I think or forty seven, Gene Hackman a lot about

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Speaker 1: his age and enlisted in the Marine Corps at sixteen

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Speaker 1: and spent time in China. This is post war, so

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Speaker 1: he's part of an occupational force. He did Okinawa. I

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Speaker 1: think he was in Japan. He did Hawaii too, which

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be too bad. But can you imagine being in

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Speaker 1: war torn Japan during that period of time and you're

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Speaker 1: like seventeen years old. And I know there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of that generation did that, but he was from

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Speaker 1: a different cut of the cloth, Dave. He really was.

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Speaker 2: Well you think about his dad leaving it when he's

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Speaker 2: only eight. That's nineteen thirty eight, and you're at the

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Speaker 2: second the second highest round of the worst of times

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Speaker 2: with regard to the Great Depression, there were three different

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Speaker 2: peaks where it was really about. Nineteen thirty eight was

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Speaker 2: really horrible for all millions of Americans. And so anyway,

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Speaker 2: I think that it informed his work. I think is

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Speaker 2: why he was so versatile. I think Robert Devaul the

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Speaker 2: same thing. The reason these actors can embody so many

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Speaker 2: different things as they experienced so many different things as

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Speaker 2: young people in growing up in America and losing Gene

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Speaker 2: Hackman the way we did. He's ninety five years old,

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Speaker 2: and according to his family, the guy, he was in

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Speaker 2: good health for a ninety five year old man. That

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Speaker 2: he was doing yoga a couple of times a week,

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Speaker 2: he was doing pilates, he was doing things that are

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Speaker 2: good for the you know, they're not hard work at things.

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Speaker 2: They're good for moving and stretching and you know, blood

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Speaker 2: flow stuff. And that's what we're told now. It's so

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Speaker 2: funny that he was able to walk away from a

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Speaker 2: very successful career, you know at the not at the height,

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Speaker 2: but you know, his career once it took off, it

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Speaker 2: took off, and he was constantly in demand and worked

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Speaker 2: whenever he wanted, and you know, a masked of fortune.

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Speaker 2: The house in Santa Fe was worth three point eight

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Speaker 2: million dollars. Santa Fe is a wonderful place to live.

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Speaker 2: If you've never been there, I encourage you to take

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Speaker 2: a trip to Albuquerque, New Mexico. Santa Fe is fifty

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Speaker 2: eight miles to the north. You know, it's just an

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Speaker 2: incredible place to go, and so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to see it. And here's this

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Speaker 1: is why I understand. Cormac McCarthy actually lived there as

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Speaker 1: well as other artists, and it was kind of a drawl.

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Speaker 1: I think there was like a there's always been this

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Speaker 1: kind of artsy you know. You think about Taos or

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Speaker 1: whatever it's called, and you know, and you have people, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of artsy, artsy people up there, but

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Speaker 1: Santa Fe. He was drawn there, I think obviously for

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Speaker 1: the writing. Can you imagine being around Cormack McCarthy. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he had some kind of contact with him,

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Speaker 1: and I think he was also a painter too, But

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Speaker 1: just to free yourself of how can you and and

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Speaker 1: that that frenetic pace and everybody's pulling at you, it'd

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Speaker 1: be kind of hard to you know. And this is

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Speaker 1: before the days of you know, connectivity. Uh, you got

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Speaker 1: to make an effort to make contact with him. And

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Speaker 1: so he's there, He's got his beautiful wife that were

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Speaker 1: married for a long time. There's a big age gap

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Speaker 1: between them, which I think plays into into this this

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Speaker 1: story as well.

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Speaker 2: Let's put a lot of questions for you about that too,

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Speaker 2: just but the difference in the way they were found.

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Speaker 2: This is a story, Joe, that has a lot of

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Speaker 2: twist and turns. And the fact that you've done fourteen

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Speaker 2: network television shows about Gene Hackman's story. It is because

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Speaker 2: he was such a respected actor and artist. You know,

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Speaker 2: his wife concert pianists, she's a respected artist. And nobody

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Speaker 2: had anything bad to say about their relationship or their

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Speaker 2: marriage or anything else. You know, you can't. You don't

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Speaker 2: hear anybody say anything like that. No, and you know,

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Speaker 2: lo and behold they both wind up dead and we

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Speaker 2: don't even know for how long yet, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't. And I have to admit my wife,

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Speaker 1: Kimmy has actually stated to me in the past, you know,

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Speaker 1: we we've watched everything that that Hackman has done over

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Speaker 1: the years, and she said, and I didn't know if

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Speaker 1: I was supposed to be jealous of this or not.

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Speaker 1: She said, there's a sexiness about him because you and

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Speaker 1: maybe it's a it's a female thing, you know, thinking

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Speaker 1: about you felt like that if because he seemed like

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Speaker 1: a real world guy and you felt like, if there

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Speaker 1: was a problem, you boy's gonna solve it. You know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. He wasn't He wasn't flighty in any way.

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Speaker 1: You felt like that even if he stepped off of

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Speaker 1: the set and he encountered a problem, he's going to

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Speaker 1: meet it head on. And that's why I think it

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Speaker 1: was last year we saw that first image of him

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Speaker 1: where he's leaving he's leaving a store with Betsy, his wife,

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Speaker 1: or Kawa, and he's got a cup of coffee in

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Speaker 1: his hand, and it was so, you know, so kind

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Speaker 1: of regular, real world kind of thing. And Dave, he's

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Speaker 1: walking with a cane and he's he's actually suffering just

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Speaker 1: looking at him, from a condition called cayphosis, which is

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Speaker 1: when you see someone that it's it's more profound than

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Speaker 1: like a Dowager's hump, you know where you're kind of

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Speaker 1: slumped over. This is something that develops with age. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you're he's he's walking along with a cane

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Speaker 1: and he's you know, he's he's not Gene Hackman like

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Speaker 1: you remember him. As a matter of fact, we had

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Speaker 1: to do a double take and say that's Gene Hackman,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you can see the eyes beyond that,

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Speaker 1: and look, I'm I'm going to wind up. If I'm

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Speaker 1: blessed to live long enough, I'm going to wind up

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Speaker 1: in that state. It's not something different, But you know,

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Speaker 1: the body can tell you a lot just by presentation

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Speaker 1: of people walking along. I'm not going to say he's

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Speaker 1: like infirm, but you know that he would need assistance

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Speaker 1: because even in that image, he's got his he's holding

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Speaker 1: the cane his right hand, and he's holding onto the

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Speaker 1: crook of Betsy's right arm with his left hand, and

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Speaker 1: he needed to be steadied as he's walking along. And

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Speaker 1: that was a profound moment because it's a long way

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Speaker 1: from that image that I've seen of Gene Hackman with

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Speaker 1: his buzz cut back in the forties as he stares

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Speaker 1: into the camera a freshly minted marine. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: there will never be an actor that will measure up

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Speaker 1: to the legacy that this man has left behind. They

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Speaker 1: would cover a lot of cases, you and I. You know,

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Speaker 1: I look back and I think about the road that

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Speaker 1: you and I have traveled thus far. We're up to

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Speaker 1: like we're right about three hundred and fifty episodes of bodybacks.

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Speaker 1: Just let that sink in for a moment. And we

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Speaker 1: have covered a lot of brutal deaths. We've covered a

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Speaker 1: lot of brutal perpetrators. That's an understatement. I think where

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Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of patients with the media

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Speaker 1: is when they start throwing around terms like questionable, suspicious,

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Speaker 1: you know, something that is sinister. But I'm going to

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Speaker 1: admonish the police here for a second. It's not something

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Speaker 1: I normally do during a presser and press release. There

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Speaker 1: has been the term suspicious that has been put out there.

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Speaker 1: Now listen, I'm not saying that these are not odd circumstances,

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Speaker 1: because they truly are. However, when you say suspicious, you're

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Speaker 1: implying that something very dark may have happened. And at

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Speaker 1: this point in time, I don't necessarily know that there

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Speaker 1: has been. But my god, this has created a frenzy

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Speaker 1: that I could not have even begun to anticipate along

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Speaker 1: the way, you know, with just everything that's in the news.

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Speaker 1: How many times I've been contacted, you know, I've had

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Speaker 1: just since we've been sitting here, I've had two text

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Speaker 1: messages come across everybody.

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Speaker 2: Joe Man. Yeah, I explained to you, to people, what

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Speaker 2: is what is Joe Scott really like. Look, he's a professor,

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Speaker 2: he is an expert at so many different things. But

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Speaker 2: he's all you gotta do is watch network television covering crime.

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Speaker 2: He's on there. He's on every show talking about everything

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Speaker 2: because he's the guy. So when you think about Joseph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, when you talk about Gene Hackman, Okay, and

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Speaker 2: we've got a lot to cover here. Even though we

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Speaker 2: still don't know what they actually died from, we have

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Speaker 2: a lot of information about the condition of the bodies

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Speaker 2: and the reason it is suspicious. Joe and I take

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Speaker 2: great exception with the media making things salacious. It bothers me.

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Speaker 2: I know why we do it. It just I'm not

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Speaker 2: good at it and I don't like it. I know

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Speaker 2: the reason I'm not good at it is because I

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Speaker 2: don't like it. I know that you lead with it.

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Speaker 2: You know, if it bleeds, it leads. I got you.

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Speaker 2: But in this particular case, you've got a ninety five

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Speaker 2: year old man and you've got his wife is sixty four, right, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And I think about this. If they're both ninety five

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Speaker 2: and they are found dead in the home like this,

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Speaker 2: there's not going to be a whole lot of they'll

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Speaker 2: be digging around, but they it won't be suspicious because

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Speaker 2: they're both in advanced years and they both passed away. However,

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Speaker 2: you've got an age difference here of thirty one years.

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Speaker 2: And that's why, Okay, why is it that I get

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Speaker 2: an ninety five year old man dying in his house.

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Speaker 2: I get that, but his sixty four year old wife

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Speaker 2: dies at the same time in a different part of

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Speaker 2: the house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know when.

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Speaker 2: Hills all over the cabinet, I mean all have the

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Speaker 2: countertop and a German Shepherd dog. Of three dogs, you've

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Speaker 2: got one debt in the house, another one alive in

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Speaker 2: the house, and one outside the house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The one that was alive in the house was,

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Speaker 1: according to what I've heard this far, was actually adjacent

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Speaker 1: to Betsy's remains, like sitting there almost watching over her.

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Speaker 1: And you know that goes to the heart of a dog.

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Speaker 1: That's why I love dogs so much, because they love

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Speaker 1: us unconditionally. Period of story.

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Speaker 2: Hank is still depressed, Joe, after what we went through

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. Joe, right, Hank is not.

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Speaker 2: He has not gotten over it, and it is watching

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Speaker 2: a dog grieve is really something, and it is.

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Speaker 1: It's real too. It's not something that you just pay

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Speaker 1: homage to and say, yeah, well that happens. No, it does,

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Speaker 1: in fact happen. And you sit there and you think

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Speaker 1: about this, how long had that dog been adjacent to

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Speaker 1: her and walking around and sniffing and doing all the

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Speaker 1: things that they do to try to nudge their master

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Speaker 1: who takes care of them day in and day out

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Speaker 1: and the other And I will kind of comment on this.

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Speaker 1: The one dog that was deceased. You know, we've heard

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Speaker 1: them say, well, the dog was in a closet ten

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Speaker 1: to fifteen feet away from Betsy. Yeah, the dog may

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Speaker 1: have been in a closet, but the dog was also,

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Speaker 1: according to reports, was in a pet carrier or a

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Speaker 1: pet cage or rather. And so that death is kind

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Speaker 1: of easily explained because when you and I'll go ahead

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Speaker 1: and kind of give this away, I'm sure people are

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Speaker 1: aware of this. They've talked a lot about decomposition and

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Speaker 1: specifically mummification, which we'll get to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, keell them, okay, go ahead, go ahead, I'm go

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Speaker 2: ahead and complete your thought. But I I wanted to

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Speaker 2: back up to that because I'm really not understanding the

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Speaker 2: conditions right right, you know. But so the dog was

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Speaker 2: in the German shepherd in the closet, was in a carrier.

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Speaker 1: That's what That's what has been being alleged. And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that's floating around out there at

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Speaker 1: this point in time, and I'm hoping that we'll get

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Speaker 1: a firmer handle on that. But I'll go ahead and

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Speaker 1: throw this little nugget out to you. If that dog

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Speaker 1: was in a in a carrier or a cage, or

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Speaker 1: however you want to say it, that animal didn't have

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Speaker 1: access to water. And you know, dehydration is one of

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Speaker 1: the quickest ways for whether it's people or dogs to die.

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Speaker 1: You're absent water for two to three days, and buddy,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you something, it's all over with the

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Speaker 1: crime at that point in time. The other dogs were

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Speaker 1: one was outside and you had the other one that

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Speaker 1: was still on the indside of the house. So that

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Speaker 1: little bit to me, if that is accurate, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of explain something relative to time. You begin to

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, how long does it take a human.

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Speaker 1: I can't necessarily comment on a canine. With these big dogs.

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Speaker 1: These are German shepherds, apparently Gene had a real affectation

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Speaker 1: for German shepherds, and he loved them. There's several pictures

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Speaker 1: of him out there, you know, with a huge grin

378
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Speaker 1: on his face and beautiful face, that German shepherd, you know,

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Speaker 1: just just kind of hanging onto him. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you think about the status of the remains in the

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Speaker 1: house and their location, because that's been a big bone

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Speaker 1: of contention in the last thirty six hours, the position

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Speaker 1: of the remains and the status of the house. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm still amazed right now. When the first reports came out,

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Speaker 1: they said that there was evidence of forced entry. Well,

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Speaker 1: that appears to not be true. Let me repeat that

387
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: that appears to not be true. It's inaccurate. The front

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Speaker 1: door was open. Now some have said that it was unlocked.

389
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Speaker 1: Other people say that it was open, and there may

390
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Speaker 1: have been other open doors, but again we can't validate that.

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Speaker 1: But it plays an important part here. When you have

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Speaker 1: the two masters that are essentially deceased, You've got these

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Speaker 1: other dogs that are wandering about and in these different locations.

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Speaker 1: Because Betsy's on the floor of the bathroom, from what

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Speaker 1: we understand, lying on her side, there is an adjacent

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Speaker 1: pill bottle that has opened and pill scattered about on

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Speaker 1: the counter. We don't know what the medication was that

398
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Speaker 1: might play into this. And then Gene is down the

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Speaker 1: hall in the mudroom is what they're referring to this as, let.

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Speaker 2: Me kind as the mudroom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mudroom for people that are not familiar with it.

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Speaker 1: My friends, all my friends up north, they use the

403
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Speaker 1: term mudroom. I'd never heard it necessarily down here in South.

404
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: But it's a place generally a rear entrance where you

405
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Speaker 1: make your way into the house. Manytimes, the laundry room

406
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: will be back there and it'll be all contained, and

407
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Speaker 1: it's where you can be dirty. You know. You walk

408
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Speaker 1: in and you take your galoshes off or your shoes

409
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Speaker 1: and you put them in there. You hang your raincoat

410
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: up or your other accouterment and you don't track it

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Speaker 1: into the house. Hence the term mudroom. Well, when they

412
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Speaker 1: observed Gene Hackman's remains, he's lying on the floor and

413
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Speaker 1: he's clad in a pair of gray sweatpants. He's got

414
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Speaker 1: a dark blue long sleeve t shirt on, and again

415
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Speaker 1: back to the cane. Cane is lying adjacent to him,

416
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Speaker 1: along with his brown leather slippers. They didn't really say

417
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Speaker 1: if they were on his feet or not. But here's

418
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Speaker 1: another piece to this. He had a sunglasses line there, Dave.

419
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Speaker 1: And assuming that there is a door, which you would

420
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Speaker 1: imagine there would be in the mud room, you know,

421
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Speaker 1: a big question is was he trying to exit house

422
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Speaker 1: for some reason that we don't know at this point

423
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Speaker 1: in time. You know that the police at the scene

424
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: said that they didn't see any overt signs of trauma.

425
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Speaker 1: But one of the things you're having to kind of

426
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: fight with here is the fact that and I don't

427
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: know if there were actual medical legal personnel there. I

428
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: hope that there were from the state Medical Examiner. New

429
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: Mexico is one of the states that does not have

430
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: a corner. As a matter of fact, I've used the

431
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: term superlative. They have a superlative State Medical Examiner's office

432
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: that is run thankfully by the state Health Department, not

433
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: the state police. So they have a real vested interest

434
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: in all manners of death. And you know, that's the

435
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: way I like to roll. And they're actually affiliated with

436
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 1: the university there with medical school, so they're scientifically, they're

437
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: right on the cutting edge, and this is not something new.

438
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: They've been that way for a long time. I hope

439
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: that one of those individuals were there to assess the

440
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: remains because day. One of the biggest problems with this

441
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: is going to be something that we've talked about for

442
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: a long long time here on body Bags, and that's PMI,

443
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: the post mortem interval here, because you're trying to nail

444
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: down a time. That's the big question that a lot

445
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: of people have. Beyond the suspicious stuff, we have to

446
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: kind of try to understand how long they had been dead.

447
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: And the other big mystery that has been pushed forward

448
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: is do they die at the same time? And that's

449
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, I think that that goes to the heart

450
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: of the matter, Dave.

451
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: That's been my question since we started it, and I

452
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: pointed it out earlier. If they were both ninety five,

453
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 2: probably would not get the suspicious angle in it. But

454
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: it's the fact you have a ninety five year old

455
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: man and a sixty four year old woman. Granted, I

456
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: mean that's again I hate saying that it's not the

457
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: ab difference. It is the age difference. You know, It's

458
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: because it is because there is such a big difference

459
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: in their ages. A ninety five year old man falling

460
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: having a heart attack, something happens and he dies not uncommon.

461
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: But to simultaneously have a sixty four year old woman

462
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: in a different part of the house, not even in

463
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: the same part of the house. And that's again, it

464
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: just looks like something happened quickly, because you mentioned his

465
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: glasses and cane and sunglasses are right there. He's in

466
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: the mudroom probably well, no, either coming in from going

467
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: from having been somewhere or getting ready to leave to

468
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: go somewhere. She's in a restroom where she is taking

469
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: medication at whatever time something befalls her because the pills

470
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: are scattered on the countertop. And you also, that's just

471
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: a unique situation, two people of such diverse ages having

472
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: this situation happen. You have to assume, No, you don't

473
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: have to assume anything. I assume since they were in

474
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: drastically different parts of the home that whatever hit them

475
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: hit them both at the same time.

476
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the assumption here, And there's nothing wrong

477
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: with saying that. People make fun of that. But you

478
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: know that's why this idea of determining the time since

479
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: death both individually and then assessing it and comparing it.

480
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: Do the do the two proceeds look like their head

481
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: to head are running neck and neck. That's a better analogy.

482
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: And if not, then it gives us potentially a bit

483
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: of information. Let's say that Betsy is in more of

484
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: an advanced state of decomposition. The term mumiflication has been

485
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: used relative to her hands and her feet, and I'll

486
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: go ahead and be very blunt. Even the search warrant

487
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: and anybody can see the search warrants out there, says

488
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: that her face was bloated, which is consistent with decompositional changes.

489
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: So if she is in a more advanced just follow

490
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: my logic.

491
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: Care.

492
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: If she is in a more advanced state of decomposition,

493
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: then mister Hackman, was the question is this? And this

494
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: goes back to what I talked about the cayphosis earlier.

495
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: You know, where he's depended upon her, he's having to

496
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: use her to steady himself and to walk about. If

497
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: that's the case, was she having some type of medical

498
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: event Dave where she entered the bathroom trying to get

499
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: to her meds? Now, I don't know, I have no

500
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: idea what these meds are, but let me throw one

501
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: out to you. In particular, Let's say it's n yourachlissering. Okay,

502
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: take tab you're having angina, put it beneath your tongue.

503
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: The problem here is, at this point in time, we

504
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: don't know anything about miss are calls medical history. But

505
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: if she's on some type of medication, she is depended

506
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: upon day in and day out to help her along,

507
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: and she collapses in the bathroom and passes away. One

508
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: of the more sinister things about this is that if Jeanne,

509
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: who might be totally dependent upon her, remember they haven't

510
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: been seen for a while, no one's been checking in

511
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: on them. They don't necessarily have a caretaker there if

512
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: she's been dead for a while. Dave sadly he could

513
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: have wandered about the house for a while, searching for

514
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: the spouse who he loved and had been committed to

515
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: for over thirty years, that they'd built a life there

516
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: in Santa Fe. And in one desperate attempt, he's trying

517
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: to go for help. He's got a sunglass, says he's

518
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: got caine, he's got his T shirt, he's got sweatpants on,

519
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: and then he couldn't take another step and he collapses

520
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: in that mudroom. I don't know that that's necessarily the case.

521
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: But I do know this right now, at this stage,

522
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: at least, we probably have more questions than we do answers.

523
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: But as I always say on bodybacks, the truth is

524
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: always going to be told, and generally the key to

525
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: the truth in our world is science. All Right, brother Dave,

526
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: go ahead, hit me. I know what you're gonna come

527
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: at me with. Let's talk about mumification, because it keeps

528
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: coming up in conversation time and time again, and I

529
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: don't mind addressing it. But go ahead.

530
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: I'm glad because that is the first thing, you know,

531
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: we are going to look at. Okay, you were just

532
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: laying out a plan of maybe an explanation of what

533
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: happened that she had a medical emergency and he couldn't

534
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: help her. My first thing is why didn't he pick

535
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 2: up the phone and call again? Maybe that's not something

536
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: he was able to do with his fingers and things

537
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: like that. I don't know what his you know, ninety

538
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: five years old. You know that's some are better off

539
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: than others, you know, in terms of being able to

540
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: use their fingers. That's why they got the jitterbug phone,

541
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: you know. Oh yeah, I mean there are things that

542
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: happen as you get older that make it tough. I

543
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe he didn't use it. I don't know

544
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: what his situation was. So thinking of wondering, how are

545
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: they going to determine you're you're the guy and you've

546
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: just found out that we've got two people separated in

547
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: age by thirty one years, that have been together since

548
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one. They don't appear to have any signs

549
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: of physical violence done to either one of them. But

550
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: Joe looking at the search warrant and maybe we need

551
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: to come back to this, but I'm kind of curious

552
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: about a number of things that there looking at. When

553
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: police put together a search warrant, it means they have

554
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: to present enough of the case before a judge who says, yes,

555
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: you can go in and look for these things. They

556
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: have to be specific. Sometimes they have to explain why

557
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: in a very gray area here. But the bottom line

558
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: is you have two dead individuals. Searching that home is

559
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: not going to be that difficult, you know, because they've

560
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: got to find answers. But still, because we are a

561
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 2: society that we have a right to the government not

562
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: coming in and going on fishing expedition, whether you're dead

563
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: or not. And that's what the search warrant is for,

564
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: is because they're not allowed to come into your home

565
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: unless you say yes.

566
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: Well, this is where the utility of the words suspicion

567
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: comes in. I'm so glad you talked about the warrant

568
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: relative to a judge signing our magistrate signing off on

569
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: this thing. Words are very powerful. My wife always says

570
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: words are containers of power, and they are. You know,

571
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: the things that you speak that come out of your

572
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: mouth and they influence people. And when you're writing up

573
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: a search warrant, if you throw out that term suspicious,

574
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: and particularly when you give given the level of notoriety.

575
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: And look, you've been You've been in the media business

576
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: a lot longer than I have. Brother, you know that

577
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 1: if a celebrity dies, those lights get a little bit hotter,

578
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: it gets white hot. And you know, I can even

579
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: remember when Bob Sackett died. My lord calls came in,

580
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: you know, relative to that, even back to Philip Seymour Hoffman.

581
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: You know, it went on and on and on. Yeah,

582
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: it did, it did mine as well. Talked about a

583
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: great actor. And you know, I'm not going to go

584
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: down that road.

585
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: Addiction does not care about your fame, No, it does

586
00:34:58,719 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: anything else.

587
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: Addiction does not discriminate at all. But yeah, they had

588
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One of the biggest things I

589
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: think that really kind of hit home relative to their

590
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 1: suspicions or what they thought was the thing that raised

591
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: its head first was carbon monoxide poisoning. Now, I have

592
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: had cases of carbon monoxide poison I think that I've

593
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: mentioned it before, but it bears stating again. I have

594
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: had cases where where an entire family and I'm talking

595
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: about six family members were completely and totally wiped out

596
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: in one night from breathing in carbon monoxide. And David's

597
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: so lethal that it absolutely how can I say this,

598
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: It absolutely kills you. I'm not going to say instantaneously.

599
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: But all of those people never woke up. They were

600
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: in their beds, Joe.

601
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: When you talk about a family not waking up, a

602
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: number of people, you know, we've had issues of carbon

603
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: monoxide happening. In stories like that, they're just sad, you know,

604
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: especially with portable heaters or generators during times of electrical outages,

605
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: it's a fairly normal common occurrence. But in this case,

606
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 2: you know right away they had the fire department chief

607
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: saying we didn't find anything. We've got New Mexico Gas

608
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: and Light. They're saying we didn't find anything. They've already looked,

609
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: they've checked pipes, they've checked for leaks all around the house.

610
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: It was the It was Gene Hagman's daughter, Leslie Ann,

611
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: who actually brought up the idea of carbon monoxide. And

612
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: according to the Daily Mail, she was smiling when she

613
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: did it. And I'm going to tell you when you're talking,

614
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: when you're trying to make a story, be a bigger story.

615
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: That's all you got to do. From the media standpoint

616
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: is why is his daughter smiling talking about carbon monoxide?

617
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: And I thought that was fascinating that that's how they

618
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: were pushing the story forward. But when you've got the

619
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: fire department and the New Mexico the officials involved in

620
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 2: a gas leak issue saying no, we couldn't find anything,

621
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 2: do we move on or is there more to check?

622
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? There is more to check. I mean it's valid. Now.

623
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: I don't know about the daughter's response, but it's a

624
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: valid it's a valid ask if you will because when

625
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: you I don't know if people appreciate how rare. It

626
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 1: is where you have two individuals inside of a structure.

627
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: Not if you count the canine, that's a third that

628
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: just spontaneously die. You know, out of all the cases

629
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: I've worked of the course of my career, if I

630
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: have multiple deaths and one single structure, this is how

631
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: it rolls. It's either some kind of trauma related event

632
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: that can be shooting, stabbing, beating, fire, any number of things. Okay,

633
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: a storm, all right, you have the toxicity in the air.

634
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: Are they breathing in something that's going to kill them

635
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: or is there something internal that has been ingested at

636
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: that point in time. You and I've covered poison cases

637
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: where you know, we've got multiple people that die as

638
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: a result of it. But they have to explore that

639
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 1: and they will, And at the eme's office, I can

640
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 1: I'll bet you dollars to donuts. They're going to draw

641
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: blood on both and they're going to run a test

642
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: called a car box of hemoglobin level and it gives

643
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: you the measure of first off of carbonoxide. Because the

644
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: environment that we live in, you're always around carbonoxide. You

645
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: don't see it, but you know if you're walking down

646
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 1: the street, if you live in a big city, for instance,

647
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: and you've got a lot of car exhaust, it's going

648
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: to be carbonoxide. You know, if you're on farmland somewhere,

649
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: unless you're standing next to a tractor, you're not going

650
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: to have that much. But it's there, all right. So

651
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: there's a given amount, and then you have the toxic amount.

652
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: So they will draw the blood if they're able to,

653
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: because we're talking about individuals that are they're down the

654
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: road a little bit relative to decomposition, and that can

655
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: kind of make things more difficult. But there's also things

656
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: that we look for physically with carbon monoxide. And I

657
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: don't know that they saw this at the scene. Did

658
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: you know that with carbon dioxide assoxiation, your skin turns pink.

659
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: It's cherry red. I mean it's like imagine the most

660
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: brilliant colored popsicle you've ever seen, with artificial coloring and

661
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and it like it's striking when you

662
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: see it. And not only that, the eyes, the sclera,

663
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: they're no longer white. They turn pink as well. And

664
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: even when you open the body, the organs are pink.

665
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: When you draw the blood, the blood is pink. Yeah,

666
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: it's that striking and a lot of that is deepended

667
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: upon how much you uptake. Okay, so there are physical

668
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: findings you have in addition to the chemistry that goes

669
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: into analyzing sample. If they're absent that then I'm hoping

670
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that they will. They're going to do

671
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: like a broad spectrum drug panel that and we do

672
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: one anyway. We call it standard panel, and it covers

673
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: all the major drugs of abuse. Okay, that's just everybody

674
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: gets that. If you go to the morgue, you get

675
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: your blood drawn, urine drawn, bile, vitreous, it's all going

676
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: to be tested, all right, and then but here's the key.

677
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: We do know that there's a vial of medication there

678
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: hopefully that was collected and taken into the OCME, and

679
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: they're going to analyze the medication. If you have vile,

680
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: it has a label on it. One of the big

681
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: keys here to unlocking this mystery are the attending physicians.

682
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: How long has it been since they were seen in

683
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: the office of an attending physician. What did that individual

684
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: see when they exam what's the history? Because the ME

685
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: will go back to these individuals that have been doing

686
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: the treating. I'm assuming that it you know, ninety five

687
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 1: years old. There's a high probability that mister Hackman has

688
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: an attending all right. Now. I don't know what they're specting.

689
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: Maybe internal, maybe gerontology. I have no idea, but they

690
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: will be they'll have a list of medications. They're also

691
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: going to know what kind of hard history they've had.

692
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: Is there a history of stroke? You know, there's a

693
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that hasn't been revealed, you know, relative

694
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: to that. Now, the complexity of this is further exacerbated,

695
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: as I've kind of already mentioned, relative to decompositional changes.

696
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: If you're looking at the bodies externally. First off, the

697
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: examination at the scene doesn't even compare to what you're

698
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: going to do it the more because you can't see

699
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, you're in a mudroom, the lighting, the clothing

700
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: is still in body. You're not going to address a

701
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: body at the scene. I don't care what you say.

702
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: It's not good practice. You're going to do an initial

703
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: observation of the body. You're going to check for decompositional changes,

704
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: level of rigor mortis and liver and algor and all

705
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: those things that we check for. But you're not going

706
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: to disrobe a body that's seen body will go into

707
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: the more intact and I can guarantee you, particularly given

708
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: the high profile nature of this case, they're going to

709
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: do full body X rays, stem distern I mean top

710
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: of the head, soles, the feet. They're going to do

711
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: an extensive external examination, both clothed and unclothed, and then

712
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: when you go to do the internal examination, that'll be

713
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: very thorough. As a matter of fact, this case has

714
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: such a level of intensity to it. I can almost imagine, Dave,

715
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: that there will be more than one pathologist they're observing.

716
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: It's not going to be like a standard forensic pathology thing.

717
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: And even if they're not physically there, the primary pathologist

718
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: or pro sectors refer to, they're going to be consulting.

719
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: You know, they're going to say, what do you think

720
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 1: about this? This is what because anything that they say

721
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: that issues forth from that font of knowledge, if you will,

722
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: is going to be analyzed for years and years to come.

723
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: Anybody that's wearing tinfoil had in mom's basement is going

724
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: to say, you know, yeah, well what about you know, uh,

725
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: there was even an article and I'll go and say

726
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: it plainly, it's it's kind of disgusting. An article that

727
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: came out today and Randy Quaid, of all people, is

728
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: quoted as saying that because Gene Hackman, what was the quote,

729
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: is like, because Gene Hackman had the highest residuals in Hollywood,

730
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: that something nefarious has happened. And I'm thinking, just defy.

731
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: I like Randy Quaid as an actor. He's brilliant, but

732
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: he has really gone off the deep end of conspiracies

733
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: and government and everything else. And I encourage you to

734
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: look at what his life has been like over the

735
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: last thirty years exactly, and the frauding the innkeeper comes

736
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: to mind, and hiding out in Canada and being anyway.

737
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: But let me get back to something.

738
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: But the problem the one more thing about that, and

739
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: I'm going, but the problem with that is that when

740
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: someone in that status makes a comment like that, it

741
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: just further, you know, exacerbates any existing problems that you

742
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: might have. Now You've got everyone in the world that's

743
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: holding forth on this and saying that it's it's something,

744
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 1: you know, really really sinister. And I keep using that term,

745
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: but I don't know how much you have to take

746
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: everything into consideration day, you know, in a case like this,

747
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: and cover all of your p's and q's. Please forgive me.

748
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to step on you.

749
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 2: No, buddy. I think I get so frustrated with Randy

750
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: Quaid and other actors like that, because you know, it's

751
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: like I think about their career and at the end

752
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: you've got to realize that they're people too. And we

753
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: all have a crazy uncle that went off the reservation.

754
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: You know, We've all got that in our life, and

755
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: that's what he became. But to back up, I don't

756
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: know him. I don't know Randy Quaid, but I know

757
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: that he has comments about conspiracies a lot of the time.

758
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: And I don't know what Gene Hackman's residuals. I don't

759
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: know what kind of money he has. But you know what,

760
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 2: there's a lot of rich people in Hollywood, you know,

761
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: there's a lot of rich actors. And he retired and

762
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: for the last twenty years has been his own guy,

763
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: writing books, doing and just living his life in Santa Fe,

764
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: New Mexico. But here's my question for you, Joe. We

765
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 2: have two people that died in the same house, but

766
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: they weren't in a fight. Usually when we have a

767
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: married couple that dies there's a fight that broke out,

768
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: there's knife wounds, gun wounds and things like that. We

769
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 2: don't have that, But what we do have is an

770
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: odd term of what they found on the scene. We're

771
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: not talking about back at the Medical Examiner's office. We're

772
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: talking about mummification being used as a term by people

773
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 2: who saw them. And all I'm thinking of, sadly, because

774
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 2: I'm an idiot, I think of mummies and that, you know,

775
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, did somebody watch, you know, Young Frankenstein Part two?

776
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: That we all miss about the mummy? Because why are

777
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 2: they talking about mummification if the hands and uh, you know,

778
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: you got a bloating of the of the head. They

779
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: talked about that with regard to Betsy Rakhala, but they

780
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: don't mention that about Gene Hackman. They do mention the

781
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: mummification of the hands. And they talked about being in

782
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 2: high desert, the altitude, the dry, lack of humidity, and

783
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: I get it. Those things do come into play, I guess.

784
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: And you're right on You're right on target with that

785
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: day because here's the thing is in Santa Fe, even

786
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: though we we're not so familiar with it down here

787
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: in the South because we're so humid down here out there,

788
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 1: you are in hot desert. It's very arid, and there's

789
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, uh, there is very little moisture in there. Plusure.

790
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 1: We're still at this point, we're in the winter months, okay,

791
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: and that even makes it drier. Now. I know people

792
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: are going to say, well, there's no storm blew through there. Yeah,

793
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,919
Speaker 1: there's no storm that blew through there, but doesn't mean

794
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: that it's not dry. And it is dry. And so

795
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: when this happens, this idea of mummification, I don't necessarily

796
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: I've never really liked that term because it will and

797
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: I've had newspeople that have said, does this mean like

798
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: ancient Egypt. It's like, no, those are mummies that have

799
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: been prepared and wrapped in cloth and everything that the

800
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: ancients did, and they did it down and you know,

801
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: you know, Central America and South America. It's nothing new

802
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: under the sun. I like the term desiccation more, and

803
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: you generally hear that with dehydrated food, and that's precisely

804
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 1: what this means, is that it's absent any kind of water,

805
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: and so that water that has contained that moisture in

806
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: our human remains. That's there in a climate like this

807
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: is going to be drawn off pretty quickly. And so

808
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: you'll get the way I like to describe it is

809
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: hands and feet, the most distal areas. That means, the

810
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: most distant anatomical points away from the core of the body,

811
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: they go first, Okay. And so to give you an

812
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:25,240
Speaker 1: idea as to what it looks like, imagine if you will,

813
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: newspaper that you find up in a closet that you've

814
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: not had your hands on for years and years, maybe

815
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: it's forty years old. It looks brittle, it's desiccated, it's

816
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: a dry. Matter of fact, it's no longer brilliant white.

817
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 1: It's gone from yellow to brown. And you'll see that

818
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 1: manifested on human remains that are in fact dried out.

819
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: And you can take you can go out there, and

820
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: it's kind of kind of interesting. You can go out

821
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: there out in the open, if you have not had

822
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: problems with animal scavenging. You can see bodies that are

823
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: truly desiccated out there, many times where there will still

824
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: be visible tissue. Whereas if those same people had died,

825
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: like in the Deep South, you wouldn't see that, you know,

826
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: you'd have this massive bloating that goes on the skin

827
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: is going to change and marble and do all those things,

828
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: and the soft tissue is going to be gone, you know,

829
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: after a period of time. It's just it's a different

830
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: Like you stated earlier, Santa Fe is very beautiful. I

831
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: would love to go there. I've seen images of it. However,

832
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: I do know what Arizona is like, what Colorado and

833
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: Utah are like. I would love to go and see it.

834
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: But there's also a change in the environment when you

835
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: get in West Texas and you get into New Mexico.

836
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: It's a different world out there relative to the environmental

837
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: influences that are with a body. Here's another thing too.

838
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 1: If these doors, and I've heard the plural, I've heard

839
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: them say doors as well that were open, Well, does

840
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: open mean unlocked or does open mean open? Okay, so

841
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: now you're you're not necessarily dealing with a climate controlled

842
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: and artificially climate controlled. So that's going to be an

843
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: influence as well. But they haven't really come forward with

844
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: more data at this point in time. I do know

845
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: that the Guardian right now is reporting that first autopsy

846
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: has been completed and they haven't seen any kind of

847
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: external trauma or anything that's really you know, giving them

848
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: pause at that point. So I can tell you what's

849
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,479
Speaker 1: going to happen at this point, brother day, We're gonna

850
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: be waiting. We're going to be waiting. You know. It's

851
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: the old line about appending further testing and it probably yet,

852
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah you're not, and it would take some and I

853
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,760
Speaker 1: can't imagine them releasing a definitive cause of death unless

854
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: there's some kind of obvious trauma, which the guardian's saying

855
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: there's not. But that's the already, and I have no idea.

856
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: You're going to have to wait until the drug chemistries

857
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: come back, you know what's going on, you know with

858
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: is there anything that toxicological sample that is giving you pause?

859
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: Is there are there any medications on board that are

860
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: in a toxic level? Okay, so that's what we're going

861
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: to be waiting on. The other thing that we're probably

862
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: going to be waiting on as well. Let's just say

863
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: either one of them had a heart attack or a stroke.

864
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: Well you can observe that what we refer to grossly

865
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: that is looking at the organ itself, whether it's the heart,

866
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: of the brain, the lungs as well. You know, it

867
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: might have pulmonary embelists or something like that. But they're

868
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: going to wait for histology, which means they're going to

869
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: take little bits of the tissue and then fix it,

870
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 1: which they have to fix it and stain it, and

871
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: they're going to put it on a slide and then

872
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: they're going to take a look at it microscopically. Because

873
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: I can tell you this, I know this as sure

874
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: as the sun is going to rise in the east

875
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: in the morning. There is not a single forensic pathologist

876
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: out there that is going to move forward without being very,

877
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: very cautious, because it's the world is very unforgiving with

878
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: the medical legal community. If you say something, you're the scientist,

879
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: they expect it to be you know from the burning

880
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: bush that is rooted in truth, it's rooted in science.

881
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: And of course for us relative to the passing of again,

882
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: one of the greatest actors of all time and his

883
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: precious wife Betsy and their dog, you want to make

884
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: sure that you're accurate because you get one shot at it,

885
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: and we have to be patient. We can't run off

886
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: and make wild suppositions and time will tell as well

887
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: as a science, I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.