WEBVTT - Howard Hughes: A perfectionistic obsession to innovate 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:14.320 Personology is a production of I Heart Radio. Hi. I'm 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:19.319 Dr Gail Saltz, and this is Personology. Today. We're going 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:25.159 to be speaking about Howard Robart Hughes, Jr. He was, 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.680 in his lifetime one of the most financially successful men 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.720 in the world. He was an American businessman, but he 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.200 was also a film director and producer. He was also 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:42.680 an engineer and a record setting pilot. He also gave 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.360 away a good amount of his money as a philanthropist, 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:51.320 but he also came to be known as reclusive and eccentric, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.720 which probably had to do with his psychiatric illness obsessive 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:01.680 compulsive disorder. My guest joining me today is James B. Steele. 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.080 He's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and best selling author, 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.319 and he is the co author of the book Howard Hughes, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:22.520 His Life and Madness. Howard Hughes was born in nine five, 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.800 perhaps on Christmas Eve, although that seems that I documents 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:30.440 say different things. But we'll say Christmas Eve in Humble, Texas, 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.080 which is kind of ironic for a man who was 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.640 anything but humble or Houston, Texas. It sounds like I 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.200 think it was Houston, because you know, one of the 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.679 mysteries of his life is that his birth certificate was 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.680 never found, and it was only when he in World 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.960 War Two came around that his aunts had to verify 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.400 as to when he was born and where the birth 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.120 took place. So it's just typical of a man who 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.840 lived his whole life with mystery that we don't even 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.120 have a real birth certificate for that is pretty fascinating 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.920 in it of itself, a man who would ultimately come 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.840 to be a mysterious figure in so many ways. An 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:16.560 only child, two parents who really didn't have much to 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.600 start with, but whose father And this is just interesting, 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.400 you know, when you think about what's nature and what's nurture, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.040 that's a big question in the life of Howard Hughes, 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.680 and that his father had nothing. But his father, who 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:36.560 was originally from Missouri, discovered, or let you say, designed, 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:42.000 built a drill bit to drill oil, that's correct, and 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.919 it revolutionized the oil industry because prior to the invention 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:51.320 of this drill bit, conventional drills were basically destroyed when 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.360 they hit extremely hard rock formations. So this particular drill 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.000 devised a way to go through those formations, and in fact, 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.160 it developed a fascinating name. At the oil fields, people 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.240 called it the rock Eater because that's exactly what it did, 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:10.639 and revolutionized the oil industry and ultimately made Howard you Senior, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.520 Howard's father fabulously wealthy, and that was actually the basis 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.000 of his son's fortune. What's also fascinating in terms of 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.440 what do you take away from your parents and learn 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.480 or what has to do with, you know, innate intelligence. 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:28.079 But he not only built this thing and revolutionized the industry, 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.880 but he chose to a patent and be rented, not 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:39.200 sell it, which really was instrumental in not only making 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.960 his fortune but keeping his fortune in the sense that 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.600 ultimately people were always dependent on renting these pieces. No 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.240 one else could make these pieces, and so this became 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.800 really for life in many ways, a source of Howard 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:58.520 Hughes Junior's money. Absolutely. And it's funny that the father 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.280 intuitively understood that the way you really make money in 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.600 business is to be a monopoly, and that's an effect 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.560 what he was, and everybody in the oil industry was 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.720 dependent on that, and he fought vigorously for years to 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.520 protect that patent, to make sure nobody else ripped it off, 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.400 and then Howard continued that same process, but you're absolutely right, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.320 the leasing the renting of it assured not just the 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:26.760 father's fortune, but particularly his sons. So fascinatingly, Howard's father 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:36.720 was engineering, was very intelligent and innovative and business wise, intelligent, innovative, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:42.080 and also somewhat ruthless in his pursuit. He was also 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.800 described as a loner. He didn't have very many friends himself. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.239 The father, he was the businessman, and he was away 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.320 a lot. And that's just interesting because those words could 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.640 be used to describe young Howard as a boy exactly. 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.880 Howard was an only child and from early on a 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:06.040 loaner early on, very interested in mechanical things. As far 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.640 as I could tell in all the research we did 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.839 for our book, he really only had one friend from 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.120 his childhood and who basically was kind of his only 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.240 real friend. It was the son of the fellow who 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.720 had developed the tool company drill Bit with Howard Sr. 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:24.200 And in fact they weren't in close contact. They didn't 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.599 correspond much. But many years later, when Howard was famous, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.760 flown around the world, created all kinds of achievements. He 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.279 was very unhappy with where he was in the world. 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.960 And he called Dudley, this boyhood friend, and he said, Dudley, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.640 I've just messed up my whole life. I've messed it 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.400 up terribly. And Dudley couldn't figure out what he meant, 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.560 because at that point he was this famous aviator, this 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:51.080 famous designer of airplanes, fabulously rich, Hollywood starlet's hanging off 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.800 his arm. Whatever he meant by that, Dudley had no idea. 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.240 But the point of my story on this is that that, 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:58.480 as far as I could tell, and all the research 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.040 we did, was his only him. He had no siblings. 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.080 His father was away a lot with this business, so 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.640 often not home. His mother, on the other hand, was 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.560 a very different relationship. He was very, very close to 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.400 his mother, you could say really and what the term I, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:20.240 as a psychiatrist would use a psychoanalysts and meshed. It 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.040 was hard to know where one began and the other 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.920 one ended. They were that kind of close. And it's 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.560 important and interesting to note that his mother is described 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:35.200 as being so nurturing as to being babying, being you know, 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:40.080 sort of couldn't stop nurturing him. Was fairly intrusive with 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.400 her nurturing. You will do it this way, you need 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.560 to wash this way, you need to be healthy this way, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:50.520 and that she had a particular fear of germs herself. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:56.760 She imparted that concerns about violent germs was the term 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.400 she used, which is an interesting personification of germs as 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.919 something though to be really feared and that were aggressive 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.680 in her mind, something that she seemed to pass on 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.200 to Howard. Again, it's always interesting when we think about 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:17.920 things like fears and phobias or obsessions. The impact of 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:22.360 your environment certainly is there, and we know that about 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.240 everything from simple phobias to O c D. But it's 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:31.280 also true that things like simple phobias and obsessive compulsive 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.800 disorder running families because there's a genetic basis for it, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.360 and we think there's something biologic as well. But she 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.200 was afraid of violent germs, and fairness to her, there 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.000 was a time of the real polio outbreak where understandably 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.840 a lot of people were afraid about what you could catch, 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.040 and terrible things did happen. But she would tell him 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.480 to clean his body, try to kind of control what 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.200 he ate. He needed to eat very curative foods, and 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.760 talk to him a lot about being sick and be 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:06.000 generally overinvolved, but he describes really having this close and 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.560 nurturing relationship in a kind of positive way. Right. Absolutely. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.120 I think he was very close to her, and I 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.760 think what you mentioned earlier, the fact his father was 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.040 away in the oil fields selling the drill bit, building 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.880 up the company that would become this great fortune. So 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.320 they were together much more than he was with the 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.320 entire family. It's true also that only children probably get 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.400 more attention than children who are part of a multi 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.800 child family. But he had been sick as a child, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.880 and the mother was frankly obsessed by this. And some 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.920 of the most revealing letters we found were when she 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.080 finally got up the nerve to let him go to 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:47.079 camp when he was a young teenager. They sent him 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.440 from Houston up to northeast Pennsylvania. Houston those days there 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:54.120 was no air conditioning, unbelievably hot in the summertime. Human 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.760 also fear of malaria, other kinds of problems, which on 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.400 this day and age we don't think of a place 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.599 like that having that back in those days, it was 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.920 a real thing. So she sent him to this camp 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.679 up in Pennsylvania, and she worried the whole time. She 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:09.840 would send letters to the fellow who was running the 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.400 camp watch out for Howard. If there's anybody who's sick 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.559 near him, would you make sure that that boy gets 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:18.080 isolated and I put Howard somewhere else. I understand there's 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.640 a polio outbreak and that part of the world. Just 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.079 please take care of him. And you know Howard's delicate 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.600 makes you know this, that and the other thing. So 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.640 we have actual physical evidence in these letters that she 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.040 wrote repeatedly to the fellow who ran the camp, saying, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.160 I'm really concerned about him. Will you be concerned about him? 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.600 Will you take special care to watch my boy because 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.079 he needs special care? Basically that's what she was saying. 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.240 In fact, she even had one time where she was 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.320 so anxious about this. She and her husband were in 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.600 New York. He was their own business. She said, I 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.599 have to I have to come see him, and she 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.880 apparently took the train to near the camp, and whether 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.880 or not they ever got together or not was never 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.720 revealed any of these records, but it was an indication 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.040 of just how on the impulse wasn't her to protect 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.520 him and to worry about his condition. So it's hard 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.480 from Howard standpoint not to absorb some of that concern 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.240 in some of that worry. I mean, you made such 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.280 a good point at the beginning about what's part of 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.440 nature and what do you pick up I'm paraphrasing you 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.920 in your environment. I think there's an awful lot that 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.200 probably both those channels flowed into Howard. It's worth noting 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.480 that the way his mother speaks and is described that 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:32.280 she herself may have had obsessive compulsive disorder, her intense 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:37.000 concern about cleanliness and germs. Of course those things weren't 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.880 diagnosed in those days, but that was a possibility, and 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:46.840 that similarly his father's mother, his grandmother, is also described 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:52.880 as having similar concerns and fears, which to have genetic 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.240 loading from both sides of your family with O c 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.360 D makes it not surprising at all that you would 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.680 struggle with it. You're absolutely the grandmother on his father's side, 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.400 I mean his father's mother. They lived in kiakak, Iowa, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.599 and it was on the Mississippi River. His father was 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:11.240 kind of a famous regional lawyer for the railroads at 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.080 the time, and the grandmother had this terrible fear of 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.760 bugs and germans, like being in the closets and Howard 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.079 spent quite a bit of time as a boy with 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.480 those grandparents. Whether it was just for that visitor loan 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.360 or when he was passing through town not entirely clear, 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:32.079 but he saw first hand some evidence of that particular 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.000 thing as well, and so it seems totally natural to 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.560 him by the time he's like fourteen or fifteen years old, 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.480 that people should be worried about these things exactly. And 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.719 let's talk about him as a student. He was by 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:50.760 all accounts, extremely mathematically minded and had a propensity for 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.960 the kinds of sciences that lead to engineering. While he 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.840 seemed to have incredible aptitude, he wasn't a very good student, right, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.160 which sometimes happens with people who were quite bright. As 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.120 we all know, he wasn't a particularly good student. He 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.000 didn't particularly like, as far as we could tell, the 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.360 organized activity that was involved in being in a school. 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.800 Even how Hard was the ultimate loner, and being in 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.680 that kind of environment means you're part of the community. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.280 But he was very interested in engineering. He was very 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.000 interested in mathematics even and I believe elementary school was 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.680 they built some toy radio. This at a time where 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.040 there were not a lot of radios around actually he 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.520 built like the first transistor sort of CB type radio 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.839 exactly and was in the newspaper, was like eleven years old, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.120 and it was a phenom in terms of electrical engineering 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.079 sorts of feats. That was his instinct, and those were 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.160 his instincts. He was very comfortable with numbers, He was 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.960 very comfortable with the kinds of engineering drawings, conceptual things 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.360 of that sort. So he was more at home with 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:57.920 them than it really was with people. And he had 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.560 already as a child, it sounds like an interest in flying. 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.319 That was something that appealed to him in those early days. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:10.200 And aviation was the hot issue, I mean, the most 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.360 dramatic thing that was happening in the world when he 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.040 was a kid. I mean, the Wright brothers were only 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.600 I guess a couple of years before he was born 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.480 and was kiddie hawk. And so from then on there 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.560 was one aviation advance after another that formed part of 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.040 that whole story. So he sort of dove tailed perfectly 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.280 with his mathematics and the possibility of flying. So it 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.600 was a natural thing that he would later evolve into 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.559 that particular field. At that point, his father had made 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.120 enough money for him to do things that maybe most 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.400 boys in those days wouldn't have been able to afford 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.160 to do. He took flying lessons basically as a teen, 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.800 which is pretty exciting, expensive venture, certainly in those days, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.760 but he already was sort of in pursuit of that 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.400 interest of his yes, And after his mother died, his 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.079 father spent quite a bit of time on the West 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.640 Coast in l A, where a lot of the early 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.240 aviation industry was starting to shape up because of year 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.880 round moderate temperatures where you could build certain kinds of things. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.840 So before we get to his independence, let's let's talk 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.280 about for a minute about the death of his parents, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.640 which happened at an early age and created a very 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.280 odd scenario for him as an only child. His mother 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.840 died he was seventeen. He was away at boarding school, 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:37.000 and she developed well what turned out to be an 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:42.160 ectopic pregnancy, which was in those days often deadly because 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.120 they didn't have a treatment for that, really, and they 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.480 often didn't discover it in time. And she said to him, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.960 I'll be fine, I'll be fine. I'm going in for something, 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.520 but it's going to be fine, And of course she 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:57.040 did not emerge. She died, and that was really devastating 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.840 for both Howard and his father. Yes, and Howard at 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.640 the time was in school in Santa Barbara, and his 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:08.360 uncle Rupert Hughes, came up from Los Angeles and broke 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.240 the news to him, and then the two of them 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:12.880 took the train back to Houston. But it was a 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.160 devastating blow, not just a Howard but even to the father. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.000 After that, I think he returned to school briefly, and 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.360 then of course he got the other dreadful news a 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.320 little over here after that, where his father, who had 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.320 appeared to be in perfect health, very robust kind of 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:34.680 figure as home in the oil fields of Texas and Louisiana, 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.960 as he was in chatting up people in the movie 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.520 community in l A, which he spent some time in, 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.440 suddenly just keels over at his desk in Houston one day, 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.200 that of a heart attack. So here's Howard at eighteen. 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:53.000 Up to this time, his evidence no particular sign of 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.320 independence or wanted to be his own person. He's been 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.720 a very loyal son to both the mother and the 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.840 father other But then something very dramatic happens. His relatives. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.040 His father had a brother by name and Rupert, who 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:11.280 was a very famous author and screenwriter in California, and 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.680 then his grandparents. I think by this time we're also 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:18.800 living in California. The assumption was they would all oversee 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:23.200 the tool company, Howard's the fortune, the basis and family fortune. 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.800 But Howard, right away, right away, with no indication, with 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.840 no advanced warning, says I want to buy you out. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.160 I mean, here's this eighteen year old kid. There's evidence, 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.480 no sign of any particular independence. Who the family is thinking, gosh, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.120 she just lost both parents. He's eighteen years old, and 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.120 he wants to buy us out. And it, needless to say, 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.400 it created a tremendous rift in the family. They initially 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.120 resisted this, but eventually he was so determined and so 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.680 hardheaded and so stubborn about it, which was the hallmark 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.400 of his character throughout his life as a boy, and 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.600 I mean as young man and then as a mature 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.360 man that he had. They eventually said, okay, buy us out. 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.440 They were part owners somehow, or in the will they 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.000 became parted in the wild, they were part owners. They 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.040 were all in that together, but he was the majority 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.640 owner right exactly. And he remembered something his father had 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.399 told him once which in this case. He then starts 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.560 to use on the family. His father had had some 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.199 difficulty with one early partner, and his father said, whatever 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.840 you do, don't ever have a partner in this world. 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.080 So Howard took this to heart with his own family. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.960 Let's take a quick break here, we'll be back in 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.240 a moment. His father basically told him business partners are dangerous, 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.240 you know, as sort of like his mother told him 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:49.120 germs or dangerous. And so his absorption of dangers and 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:56.560 fears was very total. That really caught his attention. And 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.280 I'm just thinking of of how he was is and 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.119 these influences over the course of his life, and his 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:08.119 being primed for danger signals and to do everything you 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.840 can to batten down the hatches and avoid danger. By 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.439 the way, after your two parents die, so you know, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.720 of course you think the world is a pretty dangerous place. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.280 That he would decide, you know, the most important thing 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.359 was to avoid this danger. And I think the point 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.720 you just made as an excellent one. He did see 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.680 these various dangerous and out of this group, I think 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.600 even stronger desire to be a loner. I mean, it 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.000 came naturally to being a loner. But basically I think 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.080 Howard felt, you can't trust anything in this world. You 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.399 can't trust the fact your parents are going to survive 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.119 a small operation and they're otherwise healthy. Father is going 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.439 to live to be an old man. Don't even trust 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.200 your relatives, don't trust your uncle or your grandparents, don't 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.280 trust anybody. You just have to rely on yourself in 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.720 this world. I think that's something that came out of that, 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.679 and it's sort of dovetailed perfectly with his sense of 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.240 being kind of a loaner anyway, and in so much 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.359 of his life it wasn't a problem. But eventually, and 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.960 I'm sure we'll get to that, it was a problem. 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:13.240 Fascinating and he, as you said, you know, self sufficiency 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.159 became the most important thing, the most important thing to him, 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.760 and he could financially be self sufficient vis a vis 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.000 this company, which then allowed him to use that money 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:27.640 to explore and develop and innovate other companies, which is 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.760 in the veins of his interests, which was interesting. He 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:34.679 did this by at the age of nineteen. Petitioning to 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.520 become legally emancipated was sort of a furthering of his 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.399 I'm not going to count on anybody in this world 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.359 it's me and I have to be the one, and 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.280 he basically starts Hughes Tool Company. He makes that the 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:52.840 center of things. But then he goes on to develop 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:59.159 these other institutions, not surprisingly a medical institution, given that 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.840 his parents both died of illness and he was so 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.760 afraid of illness and germs. I think that seems really 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.600 overdetermined that you would choose to make a medical institution. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.000 Two things happened with the medical institution. People are always 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.720 asking him as he grew through life, what are you 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.000 going to do with your money? And that became also 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.040 a way to tell people that's where it's going to go, 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.960 and that appeared to be something that was a good 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:30.080 thing to do. Howard Is didn't need people for much 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.359 of his life, but he had this absolutely sixth cents 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:39.480 about what motivated the population and public opinion. He knew 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.280 exactly what would ring true. And to say that you're 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.520 going to leave your money to a medical institutional, that 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.679 that was a good thing. That must mean Howard's a 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.280 good person, and that must mean he's on the right 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:55.040 track and he's he has bigger issues and motivations at him. 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.679 Were there other indications besides this that Howard cared what 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.240 people thought of him, what his public legacy would be. 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.719 I'm glad you asked that, because Howard was obsessed by 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.000 his image, even though he himself was very shy in 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.679 many ways, and he all throughout his life he had 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.760 various public relations people churning out certain things about in 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:17.800 blatant life. He didn't he didn't have to worry about 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:19.879 that so much because by that time the image was built. 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:21.840 He wanted to create the image at all times that 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.639 he was possibly the richest man in the world or 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.800 one of the richest. He wanted to make sure the 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:31.240 image that he was a great corporate leader and designer 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:35.920 of machines and so forth. He wanted to conquer Hollywood, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.399 which he could do because of his money, not to 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.000 make money. Most of his movies lost money. But he 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.800 was very conscious of the image. And when he did 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:47.040 the premier for his famous movie Hells Angels, which actually 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.600 has some of the most remarkable aerial sequences for the 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.879 planes of that time, the nine twenties that you'll ever see, 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.640 I mean, they truly are amazing. I mean, three people 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.600 have died in the filming of that movie because of 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.280 these things were so dare devilished. But anyway, you look 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.359 at those and you see wow. But what was typical Howard? 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:10.159 When that movie premiered, he shut down Hollywood, searchlights, planes 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:14.040 flying overhead, everything in the world focusing on that kind 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.760 of thing. So Hugh was, while shy personally, in many ways, 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:22.080 understood so well what it took to catch the public's attention, 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.119 and that continued throughout life in the other movies as well. 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.440 Did he talk to others about the importance of perhaps 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:32.760 surpassing his father in success. He did not talk about 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.639 that per se, but it was a conclusion we reached 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.080 in our book that that was one of the great 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.600 driving forces of his life. His father was a larger 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:43.920 than life figured to him, who had really died before 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:49.440 Howard himself reached his maturity. So maybe by at that stage, 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.440 Howard's not even noticing perhaps a few flaws in his father, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:54.720 if he had any. I mean, the man is really 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.360 on a pedestal at that point. He's created this great company, 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.840 he's engineered this amazing is unfortune. It goes west with 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.240 him to Hollywood to see his uncle, and people are 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:09.000 dazzled by Howard Senior and a handsome man, very rich Man, 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:11.320 so on and and so forth. So I think his whole 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.719 life he wanted to do something that would equal that, 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.000 but we came to the conclusion in his own mind 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:23.040 he never did, even though he himself vastly exceeded the 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.959 fame of his father in multiple areas of interest, from 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:30.439 aviation to movies to other industries as well. That is 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.679 interesting because it's not unusual, as you point out, at 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.600 least through your teens to idolize a parent and see 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:38.640 them as a hero. And then usually as you move 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:41.480 along in your teens and early twenties, you start to 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:46.080 devalue them, and maybe then ultimately after your twenties or 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:48.679 late twenties, you start to come into a more just 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:53.040 a realistic view that includes everything. But yes, left with 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:58.080