WEBVTT - I Choose ... the First Time I Saw Him with Laura Dave 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:04.800 You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Girl. 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.560 Welcome to I Choose Me, the podcast about making choices, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.959 even when they're hard, sometimes dangerous, or even necessary to 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:22.240 keep you safe. Today I'm talking to a compelling novelist 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:28.040 whose stories navigate the consequences of choices people make, sometimes 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.680 mysterious and dire, many times for love. Laura Dave has 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.479 written a handful of incredible books, but her most recent 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.600 The Last Thing He Told Me, and it's sequel The 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.479 First time I saw him have taken the world by storm. 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.640 I'm so excited to welcome Laura Dave. 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.360 Hi, how are you good. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.680 I'm so happy to meet you. I'm such a longtime fan. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:55.640 Oh my gosh, thank you. 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.800 I actually have your memoir and yes, and I unpacked 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.640 my library. We just moved home and I was trying 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.759 to find it to show you because I loved it. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:08.440 So thank you, thank you. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.000 Yeah. Wait, I heard this this crazy thing happened to you, 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.119 because I've been hearing it a lot that you had 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.759 an experience with a podcast scammer. 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:19.640 Yes, what the heck happened? 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:24.320 So someone reached out and said that they worked with 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:29.840 you and that they wanted to you want to have 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:31.759 me on the podcast, and so I was so excited, 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.840 and then they did a check with me, like like 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:40.839 they tech check, and when they got on, I referred 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.679 to a couple of specific things that you have said 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.479 like on shows like that I was such a big fan. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.520 I'm like, I can't. I thought it was your like 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.240 your manager, your and his response, he like wasn't nice 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.640 in response. So that was like my first red flag, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.400 Like he didn't say, like, you know, someone would say like, oh, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.800 that's so nice to hear that you like that episode, 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:02.600 or that you love this in her book or whatever. 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.600 There was none of that. And then I couldn't, because 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:07.800 I'm me and a luddite, figure out how to work 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.080 my Apple password. He was like trying to get into 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:11.240 my Apple. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.080 Account, Oh my god. 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:14.440 And he's like, because I have to be able to 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:20.240 do something with a live with with with Jenny, and 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.359 and I couldn't do it, and he got progressively angrier. 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.920 And so then we got off the phone and Liz, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.520 who I work with, I had texted her, I'm like, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.639 something feels really off about this, and then she got 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.079 on and she's like, we'll be handling this from here 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.120 on out. And then she texted me later and was like, 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:39.000 it's a scammer. 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:40.079 Oh my god. 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.200 Okay, first of all, I'm so sorry that that happened 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.040 to you. I feel like it's my fault, but it's not. Honestly, 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.480 it just sucks that it's like because I think that 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.919 happens to a lot of podcasts unfortunately, but I keep 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.160 hearing about it from my listeners and it just makes 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:55.920 me feel so terrible and also. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:57.480 What a jerk. 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.079 I mean, what a jerk. But what's so crazy is 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.200 he doubled down and reached out to me again and 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.960 then so that was wild. But you know, as a writer, 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.480 it happens to me too, and people take advantage of 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.160 young writers. I get notes from readers all the time 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.880 that say, oh, someone reached out and said you're willing 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.080 to read my book for a manuscript fee, and I'm like, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.760 that's not me. I would never reach out to someone. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.840 You know, they just take advantage. People are just the 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.200 Internet allows you to take advantage of other people. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:30.040 Really easy to do. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.080 I'm so glad that we're talking about this, so in 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.080 case anybody that's listening out there has had this experience or. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:36.240 Is in the middle of having it. 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.120 Just really listen to your instincts because it's a scammer. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:41.120 It's a scammer. 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.280 Yeah, I cannot tell you. 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.520 I read your almost entire new book on my plane 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:48.280 ride yesterday. 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.120 Oh my gosh, I went right through it. It was 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.000 so good. And I had never read the first one. 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:53.800 Oh wow. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:55.400 And I had never seen the show. 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.440 So that's great to hear. I love hearing that. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.280 Oh yeah, I was already like into these characters because 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.280 just skipping to the second book. So then last night 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.360 my family and I I was like, guys, we have 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.440 to watch the show. I want to watch the show. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.520 And we all sat down to watch one episode and 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.360 we end up on episode four before we were We've 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:17.000 got to go to bed. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.279 I love it. I love it. That's the best. 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:20.840 Yeah. 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.719 So this the first time I saw him, Yes, is 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:26.040 your most recent book? 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:27.080 Yes? 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.640 And then the last thing he told to me, Yes. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.400 This is confusing for me because it's confusing. It feels 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:33.400 like it should be the other way. 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.680 It should exactly. So the last thing he told me 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:38.560 was the first book in the series, and then the 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.960 second one is the first time I saw him. I 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.000 don't know why I did that. If I could go back. 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.560 I would call the second book like windbreak, like I 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:47.599 don't know what I think. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.039 Oh man, I hate when it's too late to make changes. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.800 Yes, it's confusing for me though it was. 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.400 It really came down to the characters, Like especially not 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.840 having seen the show, I was able to just use 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.360 my own imagination, which is such a lost skill. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:05.640 Oh you know if you. 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.520 Don't, if you're not a reader and you wait for 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.000 the book to come out, I mean to the for 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:10.880 the show or the movie to come out, you're really 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:15.120 doing yourself a disservice because the book is always better, 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.760 and you know, you just get lost in. It's so 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.360 much easier instead of having the imagery kind of fed 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:21.599 to you. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:27.560 Yeah, I think that there's something very sort of immediate 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.680 and intimate about, you know, the experience between when you're 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.360 reading a book, when you're coming to it yourself, and 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.159 it all comes to That's why I always say that 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.880 I don't have any two of the same readers, because 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.240 everyone brings something to it that's a completely different thing. 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.520 You're bringing yourself in a different way, and as a 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.159 mother of girls, it must have hit you in a 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.880 different way, you know. Then it would hit someone who 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:54.839 does not have that lived. 0:05:54.600 --> 0:06:00.000 Experience, right, or just someone who's this gutsy. This character Hannah, 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.560 she's so gutsy and like she just does whatever it 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.560 takes to get to the end of this ordeal. 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:09.200 Yes, which I don't. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.320 Don't tell me the end because I'm still I want 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.000 page let's see, I want page two fifty seven, so close. 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.920 I want you know. It all started for me with her. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.320 I heard an interview in which Gloria Steining was quoted 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.520 as saying how important it was for women to watch 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.120 other women become the hero of their lives, And I thought, well, 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.239 what if there's this completely normal person who's just living 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.360 a normal life and all of a sudden her experiences 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.839 amp up everything she needs to do to like the 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.000 highest volume, Like, how does she become a hero in 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:43.520 that case? 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.320 She's not a no, she's just a what is she 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:48.320 a wood. 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.960 Or wood turner? She's just an artist. And then all 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.160 of a sudden she's in this impossible situation in which 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.599 the people she thought she knew and trusted she can't 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.160 and so she's left with herself. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.320 Yeah, and having to figure out every little piece on 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.440 her own. Which now going back and watching the first 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:12.120 book in the Apple Show. I it's like, I'm like, oh, 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.640 that makes sense, And yes, I see the connection between 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.560 the first book and the second book. And I don't 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.240 know why yet because I haven't gotten to the end 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.680 of the first season. Yes, but I know it's all 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.760 going to come together, which is really fun to watch. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.160 It's so fun to watch out of order for some reason. 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.280 Yeah, I love that. I mean I think that, you know, 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.600 because I tried to write I really don't like a 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:34.920 sequel that spends like one hundred pages retreading old territory. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.800 So I'm like, for myself, it was an exercise and 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.120 how am I going to get people in quickly without 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.320 them having to read the other book? And so something 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:45.440 that we did when I was writing the book was 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.680 I gave it to like twenty readers who had not 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.760 read the first book to say, like, where are you lost? 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.000 Where are we not following this? So that they could 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:55.880 read it as you can read it as a standalone. 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:56.840 Was the idea. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:57.320 You will. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.680 You accomplished it, that's for sure, And that's so interesting 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.040 as an author to you know, do those sort of 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.640 tests to make sure that it's landing. That's really interesting 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.480 because I felt like I knew the story. I felt 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.000 like I knew the characters, and you know, Ohen wasn't 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.000 even in it that much. Yes, so until you know, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.680 until he was. But then you know, I just I 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:22.120 loved it. 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.080 Loved it. That's all I'm going to say. 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:25.840 I love hearing that. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:26.440 Thank you. 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:32.040 Your novels often explore like the secrets within close relationships, 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.160 like her finding out this huge secret about her husband 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.440 and what what kind of what would you say? Draws 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.800 you to that sort of tension between the intimacy and 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.920 the deception, and that those two living in the same space. 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.480 I think often, you know, the question that really drove 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.560 these books was can we ever know the people we love? 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.400 And I think that you can live with someone for 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.800 five years or ten years or fifty years and wake 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.680 up and somehow that person can either feel more known 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.480 to you if you're really lucky that you really have 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:12.720 this soul sort of understanding, or if the coins turn 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.080 in a different fashion you don't recognize each other anymore. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.160 And how does that happen? And it does it happen 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.400 because you never knew each other to begin with, or 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.280 because you grew apart, or because someone kept the secret. 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.880 There's so many different ways you can come to that. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.200 And I've always been interested in this idea of not 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.160 only the secrets we keep from each other, but I 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.760 think they often start with the secret we keep from ourselves. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.200 So what is the story that we don't want to 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.679 tell ourselves about our own life that make an intimacy 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:46.480 with another person compromised or impossible because we're not acknowledging 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.480 something to ourself or that person isn't acknowledging something to himself. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.080 And that's where it all starts for me, that initial secret. 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.960 Yes, and most importantly, that relationship with yourself. Yeah, I 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:02.360 love that. Well, yeah, I was definitely thinking, like, what 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:07.240 about my husband, don't I know, Like laying next to 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.400 him last night, I was curious and I didn't, you know, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:12.800 he was sleeping so I couldn't ask him. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.320 But maybe tonight I was. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.240 I was. I was listening to one of your episodes 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.920 in which you were I think it was with Molly Simms, 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.920 and you were talking about how your husband's a Gemini. Yeah, yes, 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.840 is that right? Yes, I'm raising a Gemini, and so 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:31.360 I'm always thinking with a gemini, there's always two beautiful sides. 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.439 But what I actually think is that My experience of 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.800 geminis is that they're so authentic to each part of themselves, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.240 so you probably do know him the truth. 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:45.120 It's the truth either way, either. 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.200 Character they're playing in that moment. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.320 Yes, And with this I really did want to the 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.959 conclusion I came to here and I won't ruin the end, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.520 but the conclusion I came to very early on when 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.280 I started writing this first book. It was before before 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.440 I became a mom, and it was it was a 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:04.120 love story with the idea that even if the details change, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.599 even if you learned that the details you thought you 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.040 knew were different, you can know someone's soul, you can 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.880 know who that person is, and then that can be 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.440 this sort of rewarding journey. And then when I had 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.600 my son, my little Gemini, I realized that this was 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:24.000 the primal story of someone becoming a mom. And what 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.360 does that love story look like? And why does supersede 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.480 all the other love stories in our life? What about 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:31.840 that it's true? 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.160 And even in this experience where it's a stepmother stepdaughter 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.520 relationship between Hannah and Bailey, that really brings, you know, 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.440 the heart and the empathy to the story in general. 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:50.280 And I mean I can understand even though I'm not 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.960 a stepmom, I can really relate to Hannah's like longing 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.520 to be liked by Bailey and all her teenage angst. 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.880 And you never had a stepchild either, right, Am. 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:07.760 I never had a stepchild, but I have several godchildren, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.599 three of whom were teenager teenage girls. While I was 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:16.040 writing this, and I think, you know, it's this really 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.760 weird thing where I think there's something when a girl 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.240 is coming into that age and you're close to her, 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.680 like you walk into a room and you still see 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.800 yourself as that age in some way, and you're like, wait, 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.440 and then you see yourself through their eyes and you're like, 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.280 but I'm not and I'm so not cool and I 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.719 just want their approval and how did I get here? 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:40.600 Like how am I the grown up in the room. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:46.480 And when Hannah starts with Bailey, you know, I think 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.600 that this thing is going on for her where she's 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.760 trying so hard, but she's trying in all the wrong ways. 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.760 And someone can sense that from you if you are 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:59.120 being an authentic, if you are being not the version 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.240 of yourself that someone needs, because it's not really you. 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.640 And then her movement to their movement toward each other, 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.800 because I had seen so often on TV or in 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.920 books that there's an antagonistic relationship between a stepmother and 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.360 a stepdaughter. But what I wanted to do here was 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.160 suggest that they were distant because they didn't understand each other, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.840 but that they have something in common. As opposed to 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.400 which you often see the husband or the step and 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.240 the husband slash father you're competing for him. What they 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.920 shared was the knowledge that he would do anything for 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.920 both of them, and that in forging that understanding together, 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.079 they found their way to each other. So it was 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:44.960 almost his love that binded them together. And then you know, 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.080 they had this relationship they didn't anticipate. 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:47.600 Yeah. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.680 I loved how you wove into to make the Hannah character, 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.800 the depth and understanding why she was a little bit 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.440 more reserved or why she was treading so lightly with 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.560 Hannah and that relationship. Learned that her own relationship with 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.800 her own mother was so incredibly twisted. Yeah, that she 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.960 had a lot in there going on about that being 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:11.200 a mom, having a mom? 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:12.400 What is a mom? 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.040 Yes, because how do we do anything if we don't 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.680 have a model. It becomes impossible or it becomes a 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.440 different kind of challenge, and so I like the idea 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.880 that they became each other's key in Locke, a mom 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.360 who was never mothered herself and a girl who lost 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.880 her mother way too young. Yet somehow they're each other's 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.920 key and lock they were able to find their way there. 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:40.520 Yeah, what was the backstory in your mind that made 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:47.040 you made Hannah trust Owen so implicity? You know, without 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.080 any spoiler, she always believed in him. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.200 Yes, I think for me, it started way before I 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.720 even started writing the book. I saw do you remember 0:14:55.760 --> 0:15:00.160 the Enron trial in Houston with the there was that 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.560 terrible embezzlement at Enron, And I saw an interview with 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.200 Linda Lay, the wife of Kenneth Leigh, on the Today Show, 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.880 in which she said, my husband's done nothing wrong and 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.360 I didn't putting aside whether she actually believed that. I 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:19.560 started to imagine, what if your love for someone was 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.840 so real and felt so lived in And Hannah comes 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.160 to Owen at a moment in her life where she's 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.640 fully formed, She's in her late thirties, she knows who 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.160 she is, and then, but what if you feel that 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.400 kind of love for someone and the world is telling 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.960 you they're someone else do you believe yourself or do 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.360 you believe the world? And so I wanted to create 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.359 a character who is so seeped in her own understanding 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.480 of herself. She didn't have a mother to guide her. 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:53.880 She guided herself. She totally self made in every way, 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.880 and so what she's her own guiding light, she's her 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:02.160 own sort of true north. So when she finally meets him, 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.960 and she's and I talked about this in the first book. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.320 She almost got married before, and she didn't. And she 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.880 was never the person who wanted to just be with anyone. 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.080 She was the person who was worried about picking the 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.640 wrong person, and so she waited. And then when she 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.800 met Owen, she was sure. And how do you hold 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.520 on too that certainty in the face of so much 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.080 evidence to the contrary? And does that make you a fool? 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.440 Or does that make you someone that is sort of 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.280 the grown up in the room who understands more than everyone. 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.360 And that was sort of the tension of the book. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.000 And when I'm writing, I never know the answer. I 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.080 didn't know until I got to the end what I thought. 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.840 I even't felt that with the flashbacks of her as 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.840 a younger girl, I felt that inner strength in her, 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:47.440 and you kind of get to see it develop a 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.760 little bit in those flashbacks. Yes, what she was enduring 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.680 and like how she was her own Like you said, 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:54.400 true north. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.520 Yeah, I think that's becomes a different journey. And I 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:03.000 think also when we become mom, we have to inhabit 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.679 that in a new way, being a true North for 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.600 these little people that walk into our lives or you know, 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.000 I always talk about how I felt reborn when I 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.600 had my son, but I think that was another way 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:20.000 of saying that I felt the responsibility shift, like I 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.479 felt it in the earth, Like everything looked different to 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.840 me because it was like a seismic shift. Because I 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.919 was like, I want to be the person that helps 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.800 him know he can trust himself, and in order to 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.639 do that, I have to model that I trust myself 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.199 even when I don't. So what does that look like? 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:39.159 Yeah? 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.840 I mean the characters often choose others first, like so 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.600 often their partners, their children, their secrets. In this case, 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.399 what at what point in your writing process do you ask, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.560 what does this character need to choose for herself to 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.439 keep herself or themselves safe and healthy and happy and 0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:58.240 moving forward. 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:00.639 I think that is such a great question ever asked 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.480 me that I love that question because I actually think 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:10.520 that's the entire motion of a book, is someone figuring out, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.720 how do I choose myself? Like what version? 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:13.919 You know? 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.919 I always I always talk about this idea, especially when 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.919 there's some sort of triangulation going on, that you're not 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.840 picking between two different people, You're picking the version of 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:30.520 yourself that you want to realize. And here Hannah is 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.720 choosing herself really by figuring out what matters most to her, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:37.879 and what matters most to her is she's not going 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.760 to leave the child behind even though she was a 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.359 fifteen year old child when the book starts in the 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.479 way she was left behind and everything else is going 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.159 to fall second to that. And that isn't just choosing 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:54.399 the child, that's choosing her most upstanding self. 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:58.000 And her truest calling right, and she just knows that 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.000 she knows in hers that were. 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.720 Being yes exactly, that's what she needs to do. 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:14.000 That's so good. Okay, So I love this part too. 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.040 The listeners that are here with us today that are 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:21.320 in Northern California, also Los Angeles, Austin, and even Paris, 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.640 your novels will make them feel right at home because 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.800 you choose the most beautiful places to tell your stories. 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.200 How do you decide where your stories will live? And 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.280 do the locations become like part of the characters in 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:35.840 the story. 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.480 I love communities that are on the edge of the 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.000 world in some way because I think they require something 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:47.159 different of their inhabitants and that makes for interesting character choices. Yeah, 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:51.840 if you're living somewhere where you're both depends on each 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.679 other in a different way. And also you can be 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.560 anonymous in a new way. That is such a weird friction. 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.879 And so I always try to pick place is that 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:06.080 exist in that way, and I don't know what it is, 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.920 and I do a ton of research though, so sometimes 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.240 it shifts. Like in the second book and the book 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.240 that you were reading, my most recent book, there's a 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.840 scene in Fisher Island, and originally the whole last third 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.280 of the book took place in Fisher Island, and then 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.600 I got there. I went first of all, to get 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.679 to Fisher Island. For listeners that don't know where it is, 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.719 It's a little island off the coast of Miami, and 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.399 you have to like take a boat out there. You 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.240 have to know someone out there, so in order to 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:35.959 even get on the island, I had to pretend I 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.200 was interested in buying an apartment for a house there. 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.800 My poor son, I forgot to tell him, and he's like, 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.520 what are we doing? Are we moving here? So because 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.239 he came with me. But when I got out there, 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.000 I realized that this wasn't right, that it wasn't that 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.439