1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: You would think that after murdering his parents and being 3 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 2: found to be incompetent to stand trial, that he would 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: be sent to this mental hospital and that would be 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: the end of the story. It was actually the beginning 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: of thirty plus years of adventure and escapes and incredible, 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: incredible stories. In April of nineteen thirty eight, he escaped 8 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: and was missing for two and a half years. 9 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Twenty three year old Howard Pearson spent months fashioning a 10 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: thattle key from a spoon to unlock the mental hospital's 11 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: main door, and then he vanished. Before his escape, he 12 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: had spent almost three years inside the Austin State Hospital 13 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: for murdering his parents. Howard had been watched closely by 14 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: attendance at the hospital. They seemed to treat him kindly, 15 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: but he was certainly restricted. He wasn't allowed onto the 16 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: grounds without a guard. He was told when to eat, 17 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: where to sleep, and where to go. They checked all 18 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: of his outgoing mail daily. The lead physician called him 19 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: an excellent patient and he never seemed to be upset 20 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: or avengeful. Howard Pearson had killed his father for trying 21 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: to control him too much, but he said he actually 22 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: enjoyed being in a mental healthless he was close to 23 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: the attendants. In fact, he became close to the attendants 24 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: by being sneaky. He would tell them about the escape 25 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: plans of other inmates. This happened several times, and thanks 26 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: to Howard some breakouts were averted. So he was a snitch. 27 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: He could have actually tolerated the Austin State Hospital if 28 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: things had continued to go smoothly there, but the warden 29 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: warned Howard that he might be sent somewhere else, a 30 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: maximum security hospital outside of Austin called Rusk, and now 31 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: he was planning his own escape because Howard Pearson was scared. 32 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: Its full name in the nineteen thirties was Rusk State 33 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: Mental Hospital for the criminally Insane. Defense attorney Christa Chacona 34 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: has been there many times, and she says that it's 35 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: very secure compared to state hospitals that don't house dangerous 36 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: offenders like the Austin State Hospital. 37 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 3: Rusk is basically as an open campus with one section 38 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: in the middle, you know, the tall fencing and things 39 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 3: like that. 40 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 4: So I think it is. 41 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: A lot more like a jail than a hospital on 42 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: those units. 43 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 3: I suspect that fewer people get out of places like Rusk. 44 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties. Inmates at maximum security facilities like 45 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: Rusk had far less freedom than those at minimum security 46 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: facilities like what Howard was used to. Rusk certainly would 47 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: have felt more like a prison than a hospital, and 48 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: the treatments were likely severe, just like they were at 49 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: other hospitals. 50 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: It was a place where you sent the most troubled individuals, 51 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: and that it was, you know, the violent people. It 52 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: probably made things worse. It couldn't have been good. 53 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: Howard was determined to never end up in Rusk. In 54 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: April of nineteen thirty eight, almost precisely three years to 55 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: the day that he killed his parents, he left in 56 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: the middle of the night. There was no need to 57 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: break any windows thanks to that homemade key, and besides 58 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: they were all covered with barbed wire. Howard walked through 59 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: a door, stripped off his pajamas, and shoved them behind 60 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: a hedge next to the building, and then Howard Pearson vanished. 61 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: Newspapers across America reported on his escape with big, sweeping 62 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: headlines about the lunatic who slaughtered his poor parents. His 63 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: escape was framed like a nineteen thirties movie drama, a 64 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: scene from one of the popular movies about mental breakdowns, 65 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: like Snake Pit, starring Olivia de Haviland. 66 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 5: My head hurts. 67 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 6: There's something the matter with my head. 68 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: Come on, darnning, let me help you. 69 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 7: Who are you? 70 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 5: Why do you torch me? 71 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 7: Why are you liing Virginia? 72 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: What is it? 73 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 5: What's the matter? 74 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: Don't you know me? 75 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm robit your husband of insane mental patients desperate to 76 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: escape pervaded the media and frightened Americans. People with mental 77 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: illness were stigmatized in nineteen thirty society, but someone who 78 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: had escaped from a hospital for the criminally insane was 79 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: certain to spread panic throughout the public. Papers called Howard 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: the mad killer. One headline read, Pearson remains free despite 81 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: intensive search by officers. The superintendent of the Austin State 82 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: Hospital assured reporters that his facility had strong security systems 83 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: in place. Do you see our fifteen thousand foot wire fence? 84 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: He said, it wasn't guarded because all of the dangerous 85 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: inmates were assigned their own attendant except at night. I 86 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: wonder if they changed that policy after Howard's escape. Investigators 87 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: needed to sort out just how to track him down. 88 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: Police questioned his family and relative after relative denied seeing 89 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: Howard since his escape. Howard's siblings Bill and Ellis were upset. 90 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: He was a person with mental illness, yet not on medication, 91 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: at least not anything that would have helped keep him stable. 92 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: Officers revealed to the Pearson family a small detail that 93 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: represented a big inequity one we mentioned briefly before. Howard Pearson, 94 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: the son of a Texas Supreme Court judge, had never 95 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: been fingerprinted. 96 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: If it had been you or me, are a black 97 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: kid in East Austin, he'd have been fingerprinted, and he'd 98 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: have been thrown in jail, and god only knows what else. 99 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 2: The policeman in charge at the time said, it would 100 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: have just been undignified to fingerprinting. I mean, are you 101 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 2: kidding me? 102 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: Would fingerprints have helped detectives track him down? Probably not, 103 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: but that's not the point. Howard Pearson was privileged in 104 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight. Both the authorities and medical professionals had 105 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: trusted him far too much. Howard was certainly resourceful. The 106 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 1: escape plan he devised while in lockdown worked out well. 107 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: He put on that stolen brown suit and slipped on 108 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: his shoes. The old Austin Airport was just a few 109 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: miles away from the hospital, so he walked. Howard jumped 110 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: the fence, and then he tried to walk onto a 111 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: plane that was boarding passengers on the tarmac. He had 112 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: no idea where it was even going. The flight attendant 113 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: told him that he needed to buy a ticket. He 114 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: grumbled and agreed, but then another attendant refused to sell 115 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 1: him a seat. Howard managed to hop a bus headed north. 116 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: Of course, no one knew who he was. Howard needed 117 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: to get as far away from Texas as he could. 118 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: He worried about being blotted, then shackled, and sent back. 119 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: He hoped that no one in Wichita, Kansas would recognize him, 120 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: but he didn't stay long. Just two weeks the national 121 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: newspapers were printing his photo daily, the picture of him 122 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: with his arm in a sling. Right after he murdered 123 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: his parents, Howard ran to Lusky, Wyoming, next, which was 124 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: even more rural than Kansas. He toiled on ranches there 125 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: from April of nineteen thirty eight until July, when he 126 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: decided that work was just too hard. He actually settled 127 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin and took a job collecting money for a 128 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: weekly magazine. But he just couldn't relax. He was anxious 129 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: and paranoid. The fear of getting caught was all consuming. 130 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: Howard fled to Minneapolis, Minnesota, next to work for the 131 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: same magazine, and that's where he settled into a quiet life. 132 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: But he was never comfortable or really happy. The anxiety 133 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: of being discovered as a killer was overpowering, and when 134 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: Howard's anxiety became too much, dangerous things happened. On Friday, 135 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: October eleventh, nineteen forty, a man watched the murderer step 136 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: off a bus in downtown Minneapolis. Howard Pearson had been 137 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: on the run for more than two years. He was 138 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: twenty eight years old. 139 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: Now. 140 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: Howard didn't know that the sheriff back in Austin, Texas, 141 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: had sent bulletins to the police chiefs of every major city, 142 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: including Minneapolis. Howard didn't seem to notice the detective as 143 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: they both walked, until he felt a hand on his shoulder. 144 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: A policeman in Minneapolis, Minnesota recognized him from a wanted poster. 145 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: The officer stared closely at Howard's face. What's your name? 146 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: He wanted to know. Nathan Horton was Howard's reply. The 147 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: cop pulled out a bulletin with Howard's photo on it. 148 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: He ordered Howard to roll up his left sleeve. The 149 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: detective examined the scar. Howard looked down and said, that's me. 150 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: You finally caught me. He had been in Minneapolis for 151 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: a year. He bought a car, he had a good job, 152 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: and he was reliable and well liked. At least, he 153 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: worked hard to pretend to be those things. He had 154 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: almost secured the normal life he had been longing for, 155 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: but that was over now. By late nineteen forty, Howard 156 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: was back in the state hospital in Austin, Texas, after 157 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: a nearly three year APPSAE since the twenty eight year 158 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: old said he was sane. He'd left because he no 159 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: longer needed therapy. He said he had used the last 160 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: few years to conquer his delusions. He held down jobs, 161 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: he had made friends. He was a responsible citizen. He 162 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: said he had not hurt anyone, but the director of 163 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: the program disagreed, which might have actually saved Howard's life 164 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: because Austin's district attorney was anxious to prosecute Howard for 165 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: the murder of his parents. And remember doctors said that 166 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: if he were declared sane then he could be put 167 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: on trial. It's been difficult for me to sort out 168 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: how I should feel about Howard Pearson at this point, 169 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: and I wanted to know how the rest of the 170 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: family now felt about will Pearson since I found out 171 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: all this new information. Oliver Perkins and his wife Janet 172 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: Fish were a little bit surprised when I emailed them 173 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: a few months after we met. If you're looking at 174 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: his psychology, it seems to me that the money is 175 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: just one indicator of a bigger issue Howard has, which 176 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: is it sounds like he was emotionally abused for a 177 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: very long time from the father, because Alice and Bill 178 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: said that the judge was just really unstable at home. 179 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: To me, it feels like that is the bigger motive. 180 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: But then there's the money is also there too. 181 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 8: Yeah, the money seemed to me the money doesn't seem 182 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 8: enough to want you to kill your parent, but abuse 183 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 8: and anger and you get you know, if he had 184 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 8: these mental health issues that he would get, you know, 185 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 8: just so angry at his father and then like as 186 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 8: you say, at his mother for not protecting him. From that, 187 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 8: I can kind of see that more than well that gun. 188 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 8: They're not giving me the money, I'll just kill him. 189 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 5: You know. 190 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 7: Well, of course the two could be related. The money 191 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 7: could have been sort of the catalyst, the trigger. And 192 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 7: yet you had all this deep cited animosity. Man, you 193 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 7: sure don't get any indication of that animosity other than 194 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 7: these stories. 195 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: So what Anne told me is that Lena had a sister, 196 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: a younger sister who stayed with him for quite a while. 197 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 7: She was in her twenties. 198 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean, she was probably going to ut and she 199 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: called I quoted this because Tom said the same thing 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: that they called the judge, the town angel, and the 201 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: home devil. 202 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 8: So maybe the psychological problems were hereditary, maybe. 203 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 7: Or maybe he just became Maybe Will became bitter over 204 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 7: his declining health and then plus his money issues. 205 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: Well, he has a son who is not quite. 206 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 7: Normal, and instead of acting sympathetically, he acts like a 207 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 7: tyrant and tries to force Howard into a particular mold 208 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 7: that he visualizes. I don't know. 209 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: So much of the information that has been passed around 210 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: this family was hearsay. 211 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 7: That's another one of those cases where the family story 212 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 7: that I recall turned out to not be exactly right, 213 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 7: and of course, you know, third hand, fourth hand information, 214 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 7: as your daddy might have explained to you, there's a 215 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 7: reason for the hearsay rule. You know. 216 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: Oliver is a retired attorney, and actually he was one 217 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: of my dad's students at the University of Texas. My 218 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: father was a criminal law professor there for almost forty years. 219 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: And yeah, he always talked a lot about hearsay and 220 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: why it's ended missis in court because gossip is unreliable, 221 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: but not all of it. Just about everyone I spoke 222 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: with knew what happened with Howard in nineteen fifty two. 223 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: In December of nineteen fifty two, he escaped again, this 224 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: time with another inmate. 225 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: The other inmate at the Austin State Hospital was twenty 226 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: nine year old Gilbert Wagner. He had been incarcerated for 227 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: making deadly threats and the staff was constantly concerned about him. 228 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: The criminal ward of the Austin State Hospital had spent 229 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: weeks in turmoil over the rumor that they might all 230 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: be transferred to Rusk. None of them wanted that. They 231 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: were overcrowded, and most of them were very dangerous and 232 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: so a group of patients had plotted the escape. The 233 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: head of the hospital said four men had picked a 234 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: window lock around seven o'clock late that night, but only 235 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: Howard and Gilbert were able to lower themselves from the 236 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: third floor window. The police considered the pair to be 237 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: very dangerous. Once again, newspapers across the country covered the story. 238 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: One headline read nineteen thirty five slayer of parents flees again. 239 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: Another said Patrick's side again on the loose. The press 240 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: described him as Howard Pearson, moody, brooding killer. Howard was 241 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: thirty eight years old now and on the run with 242 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: another dangerous criminal, but not for long. The two quickly 243 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: split up. Howard headed east while Gilbert went to Illinois. 244 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: Four days later, Gilbert was arrested. Now Howard was the 245 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: sole focus of the prison escape. The officials at the 246 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: Austin State Hospital were embarrassed, and they should have been, 247 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: because once again the national media printed Howard Pearson's photos 248 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: and papers across the country. There were more wanted posters 249 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: just like the one that resulted in his capture the 250 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: last time. Gray Pearson was very young when his family 251 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: answered the door to a team of anxious investigators that 252 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: were on their porch. 253 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 6: Texas Rangers came to our house when I was like 254 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 6: a year and a half, two years old. They came 255 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 6: after he broke out of the asylum of the second time. 256 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 6: They came to Eastland to interview my father. They interviewed 257 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 6: every relative they could find. Apparently it was a huge 258 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 6: deal trying to find him, and of course they were unsuccessful, 259 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 6: which was surprising given the fact that he'd been locked up. 260 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 6: You'd think his resources would be very limited. 261 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 1: Howard found employment much like he did after his last escape, 262 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 1: but he went in sort of the opposite direction, toward 263 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: the northeast. 264 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: He shows up, goes to soup kitchens, does odd jobs, 265 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: assumes identities. You know, back then, I don't think people 266 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: needed ID cards to get a job. 267 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: His niece, Anne Pearson, says that Howard really valued a 268 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: few of the jobs that he had. 269 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 5: He had eaten at soup kitchens, so when he was 270 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 5: out and he thought they it was a really good 271 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 5: thing to do to you work in a soup kitchen. 272 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 5: He told me once that he worked as a dishwasher 273 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 5: at a Chinese restaurant. He also told me, when I 274 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 5: came back from Germany, got involved in working at a 275 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 5: soup kitchen here in Gainesville, and he told me once 276 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 5: that he was really glad I was doing that. 277 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: After his previous escape in nineteen thirty eight, Howard had 278 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: eventually started to live almost care free until he was 279 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: spotted by a police officer in Minneapolis. But this time 280 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: was different. He was older and it was harder to 281 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: find work. Howard had earned an odd title Texas's most 282 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: wanted criminally in saying fugitive. That's specific, but it meant 283 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people were looking for him and he 284 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: could never rest easy. Howard's paranoia about being captured was intense, 285 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: and the pressure it created grew and grew. He was 286 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: technically free, but he was trapped by his fears, and 287 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: the situation was untenable. Three years after his escape in 288 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five, Howard was in Syracuse, New York, when 289 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: he decided he had been a normal person for too long. 290 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: He wanted to stop running. 291 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 2: He spent three years roaming the United States, and you know, 292 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: he wasn't even found. He had decided he was tired 293 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: of running and tired of being a fugitive. 294 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: A few things convinced him that he needed it all 295 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: to stop. He had a guilty conscience from evading law, 296 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: plus he was exhausted. He went to see an attorney 297 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: in Syracuse, hoping for some advice. He told the man 298 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: that he murdered his parents in nineteen thirty five. The 299 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: attorney wanted nothing to do with the case, and he 300 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: sent him to a doctor instead. 301 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 5: He approached a psychiatrist to see if he could get 302 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 5: him declared saying, and the psychiatrist interviewed Himan and attorneyman. 303 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: New York police placed handcuffs on Howard. He was going 304 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: to be returned to Texas to be incarcerated in the 305 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: one place he didn't want to be, Rusk. After spending 306 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: another three years on the run, Howard Pearson was returning 307 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: to Rusk, where he didn't want to be. But after 308 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: all of that time out in the real world, a 309 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: place like Rusk might actually have seemed like an acceptable alternative. 310 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: That's a hard life, especially someone who's been institutionalized so 311 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: long that you're told what to do day in and 312 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: day out, and you're told when to show up to 313 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: eat and when the shower is going to be turned on, 314 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: and going from that to just being a drifter for 315 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: three years must have been very very difficult. I think 316 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 2: he just had enough and just gave himself up. Maybe 317 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 2: he felt more comfortable giving himself up to a mental 318 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: health professional because he knew that world, he understood those people, 319 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: because you know, he didn't walk into a police. 320 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: Station he felt like he needed help, you. 321 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 2: Would think so. Or maybe he trusted the mental health 322 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: professional more than the police to treat him with kindness. 323 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: So Howard returned to Texas almost exactly three years to 324 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: the day that he had escaped the second time. Tom 325 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: Reveley was an Austin defense attorney who would soon defend 326 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: Howard after yet another twist in this story. Reevely is 327 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: an important figure in the state of Texas, so important 328 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: that his papers and oral interviews are stored at the 329 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: East Texas Research Center at R. W. Steen Library at 330 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: Stephen F. Austin State University in Nacadocias, Texas. 331 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 2: He's a senior judge at the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. 332 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: He's still alive. He must be close to one hundred. 333 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: He actually died in December of twenty twenty at age 334 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: ninety nine, and amazingly, he did serve on the Court 335 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: of Appeals until he passed away. Judge Reeveley knew Howard 336 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: and he spent time with Bill and Alice because, and 337 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: this is where the story gets even more complicated, his 338 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: siblings had provided for him for decades. 339 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 4: He was always writing, voting, He's a clothing or something, 340 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 4: deed or something. Even with what he had done, even 341 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 4: with being warned to be careful when he had escaped, 342 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 4: they treated him as a brother. 343 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: Bill and Alice stood by Howard for more than twenty 344 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: five years. They were extremely worried when he had escaped 345 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: both times. They were concerned that he wasn't cured, that 346 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: he might be capable of hurting someone again. But here's 347 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: the weird twist. When Howard murdered will and Lena Pearson, 348 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: all three of the children inherited their parents' estate, which 349 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: included the seventeen thousand dollars life insurance policy, and Tom 350 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: Riveley says that this money had been invested well over 351 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: the past three decades. 352 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 4: His brother, William Pearson Junior, had taught geography at the 353 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 4: University in Florida, and his sister Alice had moved to California. 354 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 4: Judge Pearson had left an the state with some minerals 355 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 4: and some land, some of it near Austin. Alice and 356 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 4: William Junior had taken a third, and they said, no, 357 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 4: we're going to protect Howard's part of it, and so 358 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 4: his brother Bill had been very careful to take care 359 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 4: of it. 360 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: So think about this. Howard had killed their parents at 361 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: least partially for the life insurance money, and now he 362 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: would be entitled to it if the hospital ever chose 363 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: to release him. 364 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier in this podcast that you know very 365 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: often family rallies around the accused, and that, of course 366 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: it's true, but to this extent, I've never seen such 367 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: sibling loyalty because it went beyond just advocating for innocence. 368 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: Remember that statement, because another family member has a theory 369 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: about that, and it's really really dark. The funds were 370 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: not that big in nineteen thirty five, less than twenty 371 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: thousand dollars for each of them, but decades later Howard's 372 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: portion was more than eight hundred thousand dollars. Today it 373 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: would have been worth almost seven million dollars. 374 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 5: When he was institutionalized, he had inherited a certain amount 375 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 5: of money from my grandparents, and because he was institutionalized, 376 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 5: he's used spent very little of it. Money. When you 377 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 5: don't spend, it accumulates, you know. So that's why he 378 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 5: was left with a more sizable estate than he would 379 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 5: have had otherwise. 380 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: None of this had been an issue for almost thirty 381 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: years until June of nineteen sixty three. That afternoon, Bill 382 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: Pearson's phone rang and his son answered. Bill was just 383 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: pulling into the driveway with his daughter Anne when her 384 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: brother met them outside. 385 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 5: He seemed alarmed, And I remember we drove up in 386 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 5: the car and he walked out to the car and 387 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 5: told my father that the doctor from Rusk had called. 388 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 5: He thought he was saying and they were backing him up, 389 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 5: and they were recommending his release. And I just remember 390 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 5: how shocked everybody was because it was not what we 391 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 5: expected to hear. 392 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: Howard Pearson had been a patient at mental health facilities 393 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: for almost thirty years, but now the superintendent at Rusk 394 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: State Hospital said there was nothing more they could do 395 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: for him. Doctor Charles Kassner declared that Howard was no 396 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: longer medically insane. 397 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: And so he contacted the sheriff of Travis County and said, 398 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: come and take him. Well, now, what do you do? 399 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 2: When sheriff contacted a judge, the judge quite properly said no, no, 400 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 2: you cannot declare someone no longer insane. 401 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: Again, insanity is a legal designation, not a medical one. 402 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty three, the superintendent at Rusk says he's 403 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: no longer insane. The judge says, no, no, you don't 404 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: decide that. I will decide that, or a jury will. 405 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: And remember that Austin's district attorney in nineteen thirty five 406 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: vowed to put Howard on trial for murder if he 407 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: were ever released. Bill and Alice were incredibly shocked. They 408 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: had been told for years that there was virtually no 409 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: chance of Howard being released from the hospital, but according 410 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: to Howard's doctors, things had changed. Despite his two escapes, 411 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: the doctors were certain that he would no longer be 412 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: a danger to anyone. So when Bill and Alice got 413 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: the news, they responded just like they did in nineteen 414 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: thirty five. They hired a team of outstanding defense attorneys, 415 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: including Tom Reveley, But there was a little hitch. Tom 416 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: Reveley had never tried a murder case before. Reevely took 417 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: a trip to the state hospital outside of Austin to 418 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: find out more from the head of RUSK. 419 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 4: So I stopped in Rusk and talked to the superintendent 420 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 4: and name was Casual. I don't know what kind of 421 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 4: a doctor he was. I wasn't impressed with him at all. 422 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 4: I date to be depended on him. As later on 423 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 4: he came by the office in Austin. He thought maybe 424 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 4: if there's something he could testified to would be worth 425 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 4: him making little money. 426 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: So Reevely thought little of the superintendent and whether he 427 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: had the ability to assess anyone correctly. But Reveley's opinion 428 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: didn't actually matter because doctor Cassner had made his choice. 429 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: Howard Pearson should no longer be confined to a mental institution. 430 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: Reevely says Cassner believed that the hospital could do no 431 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: more for Howard. 432 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 4: If you recover sanity, you will be abnormal, but you 433 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 4: won't be insane. We call it a burnout. If it 434 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 4: burns out this severe mental illness, he would be less 435 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 4: likely to be violent or harm anybody than anybody in 436 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 4: this courtroom. May have problems get along with people, but 437 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: he'll never be a danger. Not now. 438 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: And former law school professor Linda Frost says that the 439 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: assessment is correct in many cases. 440 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 3: And so much money locking people up for years and years. 441 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 3: Treatment and supports are relatively cheap compared to that. And 442 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 3: if you help people not only not recommit offenses, because 443 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 3: if you, frankly, if you lock somebody up for ten 444 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: twenty years, the chances of them committing another offense are 445 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: low just because they're older. 446 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: But that might not have been the case with Howard. 447 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Cassner's decision to declare that Howard was now sane 448 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: triggered a cascade of events. He would now be competent 449 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: to stand trial. 450 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 4: I come on to Austin and I met with Bill 451 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 4: and he said he'd like for me to represent them. 452 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 4: I said, well, first we'll have to have a trial 453 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 4: about whether he is saying now, and if the jury 454 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 4: finds that he is saying now and can be tried, 455 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 4: then we'll have to try his murder case and the 456 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 4: defense will be insanity. 457 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: Bill Pearson was the guardian of the date then now 458 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: very sizeable estate left by their parents. 459 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: And I said, Miss Pearson, I'm impressed with your care 460 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 4: and attention to your brother under all the circumstances. But 461 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 4: if i'm representing him, I'm not representing you. I have 462 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 4: to represent him, and if there should be some conflict. 463 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 4: I can't help you on that, Oh, he said, that's 464 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 4: what I wan't. 465 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: There was a sanity hearing for Howard in September of 466 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, and the court found him competent to 467 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: stand trial for murder, and he was released on a 468 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars bond. But Austin's district attorney wasn't all 469 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: that anxious to start a trial, particularly for a murder 470 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 1: that happened in nineteen thirty five, so he decided to 471 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: offer Howard a deal, a really really good deal. 472 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 4: District attorney said, well, let him plead guilty and I'll 473 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 4: go for time served and he can go free. I said, well, 474 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 4: let me tell my people, I told Howard. Oh, he said, 475 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 4: that's fine. 476 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: But Howard didn't know that there was a stipulation in 477 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: the pearson's estate and how that inheritance would be distributed. 478 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: If Howard was convicted of murdering his parents, he would 479 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: forfeit his portion of the money, he wouldn't receive it, 480 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: and just a reminder, it would be worth millions of 481 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: dollars today. 482 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 4: I told Bill, I said, Bill, if he pleads guilty, 483 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 4: if he didn't get into that money, that's yours analysis. 484 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: One of the remarkable things about those siblings is that 485 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: the district attorney had offered Howard a plea deal, but 486 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 2: when the siblings found out that he was not going 487 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: to be able to inherit his portion of his dad's estate, 488 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: they rejected it and took their chances with the jury. 489 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: And this brings me to another family fable, a rumor 490 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: that some of the family has heard for decades. It 491 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: took me four months, but I finally found Marshall Whetstone 492 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: in corpse Christie. Her father was Howard's cousin, Marshall Pearson. 493 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: Howard lived with Marshall and his family when he worked 494 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: in those oil fields in East Texas in the early 495 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. Marcia says that her father always had a 496 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: suspicion something she had heard growing up about why Howard 497 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: really did kill his parents, Bill and Alice had convinced 498 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: him to do it. 499 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 9: I guess, deep down inside, Howard had had a lot 500 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 9: of hostility towards his dad and then his sister and brother. 501 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 9: I guess used that to their advantage because they were 502 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 9: pushing Howard into well. Really and truly, what I was 503 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 9: told was that they had pretty much instigated the whole 504 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 9: thing by telling Howard all kinds of stuff about things 505 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 9: that Judge Pearson and his wife were doing that would 506 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 9: be harmful to Howard, like wanting to put him away. 507 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: So this shocked me when I first heard it. It 508 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: just seems unbelievable. But Marcia was really clear about the rumor. 509 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 9: They kind of put in Howard's mind that the only 510 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 9: way he was going to have any kind of life 511 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 9: at all was if his mom and dad were gone. Now, 512 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 9: this is all what my dad told me, but everybody 513 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 9: in the family, according to what he said, felt when 514 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 9: Howard killed his mom and dad that his sister and 515 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 9: brother had really pushed him into it. 516 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: Given everything that I've learned about Alison Bill, this seems unlikely, 517 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: but I have to at least consider it for now. 518 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: Bill and Alice have always seemed to be really kind 519 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: to people. And Plus, when Howard talked to his friend 520 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: about his plans to kill his parents, he said that 521 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: he had been writing to his siblings for months, pretending 522 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: like everything was fine. That means at the very least 523 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: that Howard definitely didn't share his plans with Bill and Alice. 524 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: But then there's the matter of that money. Howard's siblings 525 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: stood to benefit from getting their inheritance when Howard killed 526 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: their parents, and if he were prevented from getting his 527 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: share of that money, Bill and Alice would get even 528 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: more for themselves. Bill's daughter Anne says they really weren't 529 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: interested in the money for themselves. 530 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 5: No, I don't think the money was the big issue. 531 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 5: They never planned on getting his money. 532 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: If they had wanted the money, they likely wouldn't have 533 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: worked so hard on Howard's defense. It seems more likely 534 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: to me that they just understood what their brother had 535 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: gone through as a child. They loved Howard, and they 536 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: just wanted to help him. So Alison Bill had decided 537 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: to go to trial to take their chances with a jury. 538 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: Howard really did need that money, but if he were 539 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 1: found guilty, he couldn't get any of it. We'vely met 540 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: with Bill Pearson once again and I said, now we're 541 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: going to need expert witnesses because this is horrible crime 542 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: and it would take somebody seriously ill to kill his 543 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: mother and father the way he did it. 544 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 4: He said, I understand, and that's he has money for 545 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 4: that purpose. Yet, whatever you need. 546 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: But reveally was a little nervous because he had a 547 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: conversation with the district attorney, the one who initially charged 548 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: Howard with murder in nineteen thirty five, and the DA's 549 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: recollection of what happened did not tally with the description 550 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: of an insanity case. 551 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 4: And he said when Howard Pearson was brought in he 552 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 4: knew what he had done was wrong. He was trying 553 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 4: to make up reasons. 554 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: So even the DA in nineteen thirty five didn't think 555 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: that Howard should have been considered legally insane, and author 556 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: Gary Laverne agrees. 557 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 2: I don't think he was schizophrenic, at least as I 558 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: understand that term. I think he was delusional. Now does 559 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 2: that mean that this individual like a Howard, that when 560 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 2: they do these things, when they when they kill, they 561 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 2: should be treated differently from other people? 562 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: And now Howard might have another chance to get out 563 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: of serving jail time. He could have walked away without 564 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: having to do any of this because of that plea deal. 565 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: Alison Bill really wanted Howard to be acquitted and to 566 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 1: be able to get his money, but they also didn't 567 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: want him to believe that they had any control over 568 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: his money, because, as we've seen Howard did not react 569 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: well to feeling powerless, and of course this story made 570 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: headlines once again. The stories brought up a well worn 571 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 1: controversy in America. 572 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: What do you do with these people? What should your 573 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 2: policy be? Do you say, for example, well, we need 574 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: to look at these on a case by case basis. 575 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: That sounds perfectly reasonable until you find out that black 576 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 2: people are more likely to be sent to prison than 577 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 2: white people, rich people are less likely to be sent 578 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: to prison than poor people. What kind of policy is that? 579 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: Is that justice? And so that's one of the frustrating. 580 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: Things, and it happens even today. I asked retired investigator 581 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: Fred Burton about the law enforcement community's reaction to the 582 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: insanity defense. You know, I just wonder if there is 583 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: that feeling that someone who's mentally ill, who has committed 584 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: a crime and then goes to an institution where he 585 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: could possibly be released, has gotten away somehow with murder. 586 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: Is that a feeling that cops sometimes have? Is it 587 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: still a struggle? 588 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 10: Without a doubt? I think cops, you know, do their job, 589 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 10: investigate the crime, put together the case, present it to 590 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 10: the district attorney or the assistant US attorney, and you 591 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 10: know they've done their job. But then at the end 592 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 10: of the day you see people walk after you know 593 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 10: that they were behind that crime of violence. And I 594 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 10: think the most vivid example of that would be the 595 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 10: Hinkley case visa v. President Reagan. 596 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,720 Speaker 1: On March thirtieth, nineteen eighty one, John Hinckley Junior shot 597 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 1: and wounded Ronald Reagan in Washington, d C. The President 598 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: was returning to his limousine after a speaking engagement at 599 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: the Washington Hilton Hotel. Hinckley had been obsessed with actress 600 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: Jodi Foster. He believed that shooting Reagan would impress her. 601 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: Doctor say he suffered from acute psychosis and extreme depression. 602 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: He spent decades in a psychiatric ward in Washington, but 603 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, physicians decided that he was stable and 604 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: suggested that he be released with supervision. Five years later, 605 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 1: Hinckley seems to be living a stable and productive life. 606 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: Fred Burton says that Howard Pearson might have been able 607 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: to do the same thing, live a relatively peaceful life, 608 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 1: or at least not kill anyone else. 609 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 10: You know, I kind of look at it from another 610 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 10: side of the coin, that you know, here was an 611 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 10: individual that you know, served many years in prison, he 612 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 10: paid his dues, and if the system feels that he 613 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 10: could be rehabilitated or within parameters being let go, that 614 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 10: that's the right thing to do. 615 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: Howard's brother and sister were optimistic about his potential for 616 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: living a healthy life outside of the state hospital, but 617 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: they were also very realistic. Bill Pearson knew that Howard 618 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: was prone to obsessive behavior and that money, his money 619 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 1: might very well be a dangerous trigger, and Bill didn't 620 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: want to be in the crosshairs by being in charge 621 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: of Howard's money. They planned to set up a trust 622 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: for Howard in case he was acquitted, one that would 623 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: allow him to draw the money slowly, not in one 624 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: large chunk. 625 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 5: And I think they thought that would be better to 626 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 5: have him outright and here at the money than them 627 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 5: have to give it to him. That's why the trust 628 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 5: was set up, because they felt like he had been 629 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 5: institutionalized for so long that he had absolutely no money 630 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 5: management skills. He had something on his mind, he was 631 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 5: not easy to distract. 632 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: So as Howard Pearson's murder trial loomed, his siblings were 633 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: concerned if Howard were convicted, he might be sent to 634 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: prison for life, which certainly would threaten his mental stability 635 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: once again. But if he were acquitted, he would be released, 636 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: and that would become an even more complicated situation. When 637 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,439 Speaker 1: I made a second visit to Oliver Perkins to update him, 638 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: I read one of Alice's letters about Howard. She says 639 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: what worries Villa and I is that we think he 640 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: is immature and inexperienced, that he would lose as a 641 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: state if it were turned over to him, and this 642 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: would be very damaging to his mental health. We are 643 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: afraid Bill and I that we would have to feed him, etc. 644 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: And we simply would not be financially able to support him. Still, 645 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: we would be afraid to refuse to help him. Actually, 646 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: I'm somewhat afraid of him, but I also do not 647 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: want to run the risk of him regressing to a 648 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: point where he might be dangerous to any of us 649 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 1: or anyone else. He is very determined in a rigid person. 650 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 7: It sounds like he definitely did not get fully recovered 651 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 7: from his middle health issues. 652 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: On the final episode of season three of Tenfold War 653 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 1: wicked on exactly right. I mean, I always wondered because 654 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: he did kill both of them, and I don't know 655 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: how his mom figured into that. 656 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 8: I just wondered if he included Lena because she didn't 657 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 8: try to protect him from his dad. 658 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 5: I think he had these resentments, which were understandable, but 659 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 5: I also think he had voices telling him that he 660 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 5: should do something about them. 661 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,839 Speaker 7: He went to Sears and bought some heavy wrenches and 662 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 7: then put his belt through the handles of the wrenches 663 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 7: and tightened his belt. 664 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: If you love true crime, please check out my books, 665 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: American Sherlock and Death in the Air. They're available anywhere 666 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: you buy books. This has been an exactly right and 667 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: tenfold more. Media production producers Jason Whaling and Laura Soble, 668 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:31,959 Speaker 1: Sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, artwork Nick Toga. 669 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: Executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer. The 670 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 1: clip at the beginning of this episode is from the 671 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight movie The Snake Pit. The letters mentioned 672 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: in this episode were kindly supplied by the East Texas 673 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,399 Speaker 1: Research Center at Stephen F. Austin University. Follow us on 674 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked, and on Twitter 675 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: at tenfold More If you're an advertiser interested in advertising 676 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: on our show, go to midroll dot com slash ads, 677 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: and if you know of a historical crime that could 678 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: use some attention, email us at info at Tenfoldmoorwicked dot com. 679 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: So please listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Ditcher, 680 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.